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Lexmark Sues 24 Companies Over Toner-Cartridge Patents
eldavojohn writes "Remember back in 2003, when Lexmark tried to use the DMCA to stop aftermarket toner cartridges from being produced? Well, they're now suing 24 companies for infringing on 15 patents they have on toner cartridges. The article also notes that Lexmark has been filing lawsuits over patent infringement on formulas for their inks."
How can a formula be patented when you can't even copyright a recipe (and that's all ink is, a recipe of dyes)?
As for patents on toner cartridges, I imagine if they were specific enough to get a patent for it (I know, I know, I'm not new around here, I know stupid patents get granted all the time), chances are they wouldn't need to worry about after-market producers.
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
I mean really? Every printer of quality I've seen in the last 3 years (and I use the word 'quality' loosely) has been an Xerox, HP or Canon. Maybe they should spend some time building things people want to buy. Could be wrong of course. Often am.
JE
Their patents are probably nothing more than 'we patented the specifications of cartridges that work with our printers so other companies can't sell cheap 3rd party cartridges' patents.
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed H
Lexmark, HP, Canon, and Kodak all deserve the money gotten for their ink. It's only fair. I say, and I am sure most of slashdot is with me, what's GOOD FOR LEXMARK IS GOOD FOR CONSUMERS !!
I called their tech support after trying to get one of their printers to work on Linux. This was before I found out that they use a non-standard and proprietary way to communicate between computer and printer.
The tech asks me if I'm using Windows XP or Vista. I say I'm using Linux. He's says "Windows Linux?" "No, just Linux." "Oh, okay, Windows 98." From there he proceeded to give me help based off the idea that I was running Microsoft Windows 98 Linux Edition.
I usually ignore stories about hardware patents, but this one highlights a problem that exists in software patents: interoperability is essential.
Microsoft can develop a wonky filesystem (FAT), and use their market power to force it on everyone. When they finally realise that 8-letter filenames is a broken idea, they add a fix, patent the fix, and sue people who use the fix.
That fix isn't patentable because it's valuable, it's simply valuable because it's patented. It's an arbitrary idea, not necessarily better than any other solution (of avoiding the problem in the first place!), but it becomes a must-have because it's the idea Microsoft chose to implement.
Same with Word. Microsoft patents a few features in their file format and they're essential. You develop your own file format and patent some features, and they just get avoided by Micrsoft and nobody cares about your patents. How good your patents are, or how they compare to Microsoft's patents, is of no consequence.
And so it is with Lexmark. They make cartridges in a certain way. Might be good, might be wonky. You can patent a better idea, but it's useless because you're not looking for "best", you're looking for "compatible".
swpat.org is a publicly editable wiki, help with developing these arguments is very welcome.
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
All Power to the Glorious Corporation!
Really, do you think that dropping all government regulation of industry is a good thing?
Yes, except that the toner cartridges can print 10,000 pages.
A nice advertisement for what not to buy, thanks Lexmark.
Anyway, for those looking for alternatives, Brother doesn't chip their cartridges, and the ink is not criminally expensive. Anyone know of other brands?
Another option is to buy a continuous ink system; often these include compatible chips so you can bypass the manufacturer. Though, finding good CIS and quality inks may be somewhat troublesome. Any suggestions here?
The Magnusson Moss Warranty Act does not let them void the Warranty so they just try this BS to lock out the 3rd party stuff.
What if a car maker pulled this on a radio interface so you are locked in to there radio and can't install your own. What about remote starters?
In car DVD and TV systems?
The cost per page for toner is less than the cost per page for ink. For example, this HP ink cartridge costs 4.4 cents per page, while this HP toner cartridge costs 1.3 cents per page.
"In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
I really hate this mindset... do you really think that people are powerless? I mean, the only reason that unionization wasn't more effective earlier on is because the corp's used the government to bully strikers. If more consumers were well informed they'd buy smarter... If a telecom pisses you off, you switch, no gov't subsidies, companies die... No bailouts? Car companies compete or die.
I'm a bit more pragmatic than most libertarian minded people, but feel that citizen activism, and civics are part og what a free market is... I do think government has its place though. I do think process and design patents (including all software) should be limited to 5 years, as a special class of patent, that copyright law should return to sanity, 20 years, and renewable once if owned solely by the original owner(s) and all original owners are living persons (not companies) and that trademarks should be used for thier original purpose, not bullying or fair use in comparisons.
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
There once was a seller of toner
Who said to a purchasing moaner
"If you like it or not
This lock-in we've got
Will give all the lawyers a boner."
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
After all, that's what it boils down to.
Can't beat the competition - sue them. What this tells me is that Lexmark doesn't have a good enough value proposition on their replacement toners. If they offered even close to equal value to the knockoffs, or the knockoffs had a bad rep for damaging people's printers, there wouldn't be a problem.
Well they have have their inkt and make it as expensive as they want but all everybody else cares about is ink. They really need to lower the price of the ink, maybe even charge a bit more for printers.
Some of has to go, yes. When people are gaming the system this badly, the system needs to be changed.
Certainly not, but at this point they're apathetic and ignorant. Never mind that the GP was suggesting we basically hand the reins of power over to corporations which are way more powerful than any one individual.
Read my above statement.
Because there are so, so many to choose from.
it's certainly not for lack of trying! take the RIAA for instance: they've been on a "education" campaign in schools for years now, trying to convince kids that copyright law essentially means the RIAA wins, no ifs, ands, or buts.
or like in health insurance and big pharma, where the average citizen simply lacks the needed specialized education to understand complex medical terminology.
and history has borne out that when a corporation or similar entity has unbridled freedom, they WILL do whatever they want to establish their own economic and political dominance. let's look at Microsoft: they essentially HAD an unregulated monopoly, up until the Fed (and the EU) came and put a stop to it. the government solutions were STILL ineffectual; Microsoft simply adapted (and i'm treading dangerously close to Gates of Borg here), and there's really still no viable OS alternative save Mac OS. it took Apple and Google to knock Microsoft down a peg. and both of those companies have really problematic practices, too.
government regulation is NECESSARY. there's a fine balance, but leave corporations alone and they WILL abuse the people. stockholders don't care so long as they make profit. with government, at least we can vote abusive politicians out, no capital required.
Yeah, but if copyright and patent law were far saner, we'd probably be far better off, if MS didn't make the concessions needed to compete with open-source it'd be far worse... Linus did far more to open up MS than the government ever did, and if it weren't for software patents, would be farther along.
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
While Adam Smith agreed with you that IP shouldn't exist at all, in contemporary society the general agreement is that it's needed. The problem isn't that it exists, the problem is that it's become somewhat larger and more extreme than what is really necessary. Patents, trademarks and copyrights as they were up to the early part of the 20th century didn't cause a lot of trouble, mainly because they didn't last very long. You got it for a short period of time to make back your investment and after that it was public domain for everybody else. There's no compelling reason to completely get rid of IP, just to shrink it back to where it belongs. I'm curious what the point of my inventing something is if you can just immediately steal it and sell your own copy.
The theory on a patent is that anyone skilled in the art - an engineer for machinery, a chemist for drugs, etc. - would be able to build the object using the information in the patent. Now it's not the engineers and chemists that write them, it's the corporate lawyers. So rather than "heat @ 97deg C for 30 minutes" you get "apply heat for an extended period of time". Of course, only 97 deg C for 30 min works, but by not telling you that, they keep a trade secret reality while getting protection in case it turns out that 101 deg C for 24 minutes turns out to work too.
Most of the patents being submitted are either business patents or software. Actual engineering patents are a small segment of the pool, and a huge chunk of the chemical patents are from pharmaceutical companies either re-applying the same product for a new 'use patent' or for the same chemical compound with a slight twist that keeps the original compound covered beyond it's 17 year limit.
The other problem is that most of the people approving these patents are not skilled in the art they are approving. That means that things like 3 reference linked lists get approved because the lawyer reviewing it can't find a reference to exactly that in the references provided by the company requesting the patent. The fact that they are used in almost every class that teaches a linked list structure is irrelevant & is now a million dollar problem to anyone who uses linked lists.
Anything built by HP pre-Carly is pretty much a tank, even the early DeskJets.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
No chips in cartridges!
What Lexmark is fighting about is most likely not the cartridges themselves as containers of ink, but rather the chips. Makers of third-party cartridges have to reverse-engineer Lexmark's chips which prevent users from refilling cartridges.
You can fight this nonsense by not buying Lexmark, Canon, HP, Epson, etc.
So how are those anarchy regions of the world doing?
The ______ Agenda
"I mean, the only reason that unionization wasn't more effective earlier on is because the corp's used the government to bully strikers."
And without laws protecting workers any given company can just fire union members. Enough companies doing it and people won't join a union because they need to eat.#
"If more consumers were well informed they'd buy smarter."
And with less regulation companies would just lie more. The well informed consumer is a myth now and would be even more so in a world with less regulation.
Your IP reforms I agree with though.
speaking of gold, just how does printer ink compare for price, ounce for ounce, with gold?
And really, how much can it cost to make the stuff? It's little wonder that with such an insane profit margin that they get litigious, they have all the money in the world to play patent bully and feed their sharks.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
First, please give an example of one market that has ever been free of taxes, laws and regulations. Now that we have the reality that free markets never have and never will exist we can get real.
Although I am no fan of American car companies I am aware that these companies tend to be part of our national defense supply chain. Without them we would not be able to defend ourselves. Then there is the issue of economic ruin for everyone if huge companies collapse. And finally we would have serious tax payer issues if all of these auto workers, many who have their entire working life with one company, lost their pensions and their medical care in retirement.
Even with some safety net programs in our society we still are seeing people taking to crime simply because they can not get work or the jobs don't pay survival wages. This could get really ugly if it gets worse. It is easier to give welfare checks than pay for prison cells for car jackers and home invaders. The right wing has zero reality on this.
Colour laser printers are under $200, and the toner cartridges last a hell of a long time. Why is anyone buying ink-based printers?
Because color laser 'photo quality" prints look like modern inkjet prints set to "fast draft"?
As said before, Wagreens/Walmart are really the best option for really nice photo prints... but at home, a good quality in jet on glossy "photo paper" has a great deal of wife approval factor.
Crap like this is why my family doesn't even -have- a working printer. Instead we print the natural way; bring the file to work and print it there. Plus it's free!
Seriously though, once tablets are more or less ubiquitous in a professional office it will trickle down to the point where they're giving the ink away for free just to sell a printer again.
bend like the reed
Brother is making some great printers these days, and have Linux support for almost all of them. Linux Support = support for CUPS, LPD and SANE. Many of the drivers are GPL, so you can get code from Brother's website. Many of the drivers are in Ubuntu's repos, so most of the time you can just apt-get.
Most print features are implemented. Also, Brother's ink is not chipped, and you can buy genuine Brother ink for about $9/cartridge or get third party ink for about $3 per cartridge (you can probably refill, too, but for $3 per, why mess with it). The cleaning cycles don't tap the ink on Brother printers the way they do on Lexmark either. I had a Lexmark years ago that would get about 40 pages out over one month and need $60 worth of ink.
The only thing with Brother is that their printers are $10-$20 more than the comparable Lexmark or Brother, but you'll get you $20 back on the first round of ink.
-- $G