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Harvard Ditching Final Exams?

itwbennett writes "According to Harvard magazine, Harvard's Faculty of Arts and Sciences voted at its meeting on May 11 to require instructors to officially inform the Registrar 'at the first week of the term' of the intention to end a course with a formal, seated exam, 'the assumption shall be that the instructor will not be giving a three-hour final examination.' Dean of undergraduate education Jay M. Harris 'told the faculty that of 1,137 undergraduate-level courses this spring term, 259 scheduled finals — the lowest number since 2002, when 200 fewer courses were offered. For the more than 500 graduate-level courses offered, just 14 had finals, he reported.'"

371 comments

  1. one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 3, Interesting

    i mean if you can trust the professor without testing the student, why not trust the student directly? why make the student get out of their car?

    1. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by TheKidWho · · Score: 5, Informative

      Usually in classes of this sort, the grade is based on Project work and assignments that are completed.

    2. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by KingAlanI · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't go to Hahvahd, but I have sometimes had professors count big final projects instead of a big final written exam.
      Sometimes the class content just isn't amenable to written exams.

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    3. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Usually in classes of this sort, the grade is based on Project work and assignments that are completed.

      That's funny, because I can remember the majority of classes having 1 to 4 tests, maybe quizes, a midterm exam, an end of semester project (usually assigned midway or at the beginning of the class) and of course a final exam. I can only remember one 500-level course that allowed a final project substitute for the final exam, and of course the majority of the undergraduate courses had no real project.

    4. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 3, Insightful
      most of my classes involved projects... almost all still had final exams involving theory... at the moment i can't recall any class i took that didn't require a final.

      grading students on how much they get done, and never testing them on knowing why they did the things they got done in the way they did, or better yet how they should have got them done, is not higher education. it's tech school.

    5. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 3, Interesting

      i mean if you can trust the professor without testing the student, why not trust the student directly? why make the student get out of their car?

      Given that most students only show up to school to get a degree to fill a job requirement line item, and will neither use the knowledge they allegedly collected nor attempt to apply it, what's wrong with drive through degrees?

      Most jobs out there really need vocational training, but in the US that's tantamount to telling your child to go be a ditch digger (even if Med school and Law school are really just post-graduate vocational training). Instead we send them to Universities and tell our friends which University our child attends, where they drink, fuck and dig themselves in to debt for 3-4 years. Then, with their BA or BS, they march forth into the working world, expecting to learn everything important on the job. Why not just simplify this into a "here is your degree, now don't stick gum under the desk" approach. To a large extent corporations not only are OK with this, but encourage more of it with ever increasing degree requirements!

      It's true that GPA is often requested by employers, but students have demonstrated a willingness to lie, cheat and steal (for decades) to get the GPA they need, so really this final exam thing is a formality anyway. The professors are there to research, why waste more time on a broken process that accomplishes nothing?

    6. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by onionman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      i mean if you can trust the professor without testing the student, why not trust the student directly? why make the student get out of their car?

      Well, I am a math professor (although at a much lowlier school than Harvard) and I've never had a great opinion of in-class testing. The simple fact is that in the short duration of an in-class test you can't give the students substantive problems to work on. Thus, in-class tests (or any other short-duration timed test) is really an exercise in "how quickly can you work lots of relatively shallow problems".

      I far prefer to give my students lots and lots of really hard take-home problems. I call on them randomly in class to present their solutions at the board and explain their work. This is virtually cheat-proof... if you copy from someone, then it is obvious when I'm quizzing you at the board to prove your assertions. The only draw back of this method is that it takes a lot of effort on the professor's part, and it's only feasible on reasonably-sized classes. I can't do this when I'm teaching a 30-student class of freshman calculus.

      My guess is that Harvard is the type of place where class size isn't an issue. When you've got really small classes (under 10 students) then you can really gauge the knowledge level of each student because you are engaging each one individually in every class meeting. That's the ideal learning environment, but it's expensive.

    7. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by imthesponge · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "it's only feasible on reasonably-sized classes. I can't do this when I'm teaching a 30-student class of freshman calculus."

      30 students is a lot? I guess it wouldn't work with 200 then..

    8. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by 0111+1110 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't go to Hahvahd

      I see that you have never been to Boston either. Only a relatively small percentage of Bostonians drop their Rs. And not many of those people can afford to go to Harvard.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    9. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I've seen the documentary known as "The Departed".

    10. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, 30 is *desirable*, especially for freshman calculus.

    11. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 3, Funny

      ah yes... i remember students who had the "take-home" math classes... i wonder why they were always giving me things after i solved the fun puzzles they would bring me.

    12. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by elwinc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ???? What drive thru degrees????? Many of my grad level courses involved final projects instead of exams. There's still a huge crunch at the end of semester, but it's about the project instead of the exam. Exams are useful for testing theoretical knowledge in mature fields -- such as diff eq or stochastics -- but projects are better tests of applying said theoretical knowledge in an emerging field that a seminar might cover.

      --
      --- Often in error; never in doubt!
    13. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      what's wrong with drive through degrees

      nothing... as long as you never want to give any extra credit to degrees based on testing / board certification.

      (get it? extra credit. you all get an A+)

    14. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by onionman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "it's only feasible on reasonably-sized classes. I can't do this when I'm teaching a 30-student class of freshman calculus."

      30 students is a lot? I guess it wouldn't work with 200 then..

      What's the point in teaching a 200 person class? You can't interact with them at all, you can't actually grade their papers, and you can't judge the knowledge of a student in any meaningful way. Universities that run ridiculous classes like that are just stealing the students' money and wasting the professor's time. The professor might as well just video the lectures and put them on the web... which I think is what Khan is doing.

      The whole fucking point of a professor is to INTERACT with the students.

    15. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by imthesponge · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are teaching assistants and smaller "discussion" sections in which to interact and grade papers.

    16. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Garble+Snarky · · Score: 1

      Four tests, midterm, final, AND a project, are you kidding? I have a bachelor's degree in engineering from a big 10 school, and the majority of classes I took involved about four "large" responsibilities, total. Two or three exams and one final OR project. And I never had a "midterm" that was in any way distinct from an "exam".

    17. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Reverberant · · Score: 2, Informative

      I see that you have never been to Boston either. Only a relatively small percentage of Bostonians drop their Rs. And not many of those people can afford to go to Harvard.

      I guess KingAlanI isn't the only one to have outmoded ideas of Boston area institutions.

    18. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "What's the point in teaching a 200 person class?"

      The point is that it's a lot cheaper while still feasible if you *teach* and they do their damn job and *learn*. When, after their hard learning work, they still have doubts they come to you, one by one, out of class time, and you explain them personally from a different angle.

      "The whole fucking point of a professor is to INTERACT with the students."

      Not. That's what our current moronic spoon-feeding society thinks, wants and expects. The whole fucking point of a professor is to TEACH. Students are already quite good by themselves about INTERACTing... in campus parties.

    19. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Sir_Sri · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've done comp sci and physics, and 4-5 things in a class is about normal. I'm teaching a course this year that will be 4 assignments and a final. I'm not thrilled at having a final, but when the class is big enough that you don't really know the students the only way to know if a student actually did any of the work they claimed is to test them on it, in class. On the other hand I'm not going to ask 3D game engine code in class time. It's a tricky balance, since brilliant coders may not be any good at tests, but the difference between brilliant coder, and brilliant at paying someone else to code for them is hard to check for.

    20. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Hadlock · · Score: 4, Interesting

      200 person classes are typically freshman, state-required (for state college board accreditation) weed-out classes. i.e. worthless classes that would otherwise require you to hire an extra six entry level professors ($400,000, plus benefits = about half a million dollars) to handle the teaching load. Assuming an average class size of 30.
       
      If you're in a 200 person class for junior and senior level classes, you're either at a degree mill, you've pissed off your advior/dean, or both.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    21. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i mean if you can trust the professor without testing the student, why not trust the student directly? why make the student get out of their car?

      Driving to get your degree isn't very environmentally responsible. Just think of all the CO2! Better to do e-mail degrees. Even better a real time saver would be degrees at birth. Parents could simply write Harvard a check for 200K and know that their little bundle of joy gets to start life with his PHD ready and waiting for him when he graduates high school.

    22. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reduced standards are not the issue. Lack of a final exam in the formal exam period does not preclude a final exam of some type that is equally rigorous.

      I don't know how it works at Harvard, but formal exam schedules at any university I've attended or taught at are a pain in the butt because as an instructor you have NO control over when the exam gets scheduled. The students don't like it either, because if they want to travel home or off to a job at the end of term then they must book their transportation months in advance for after the entire final exam period (e.g., the last few days before Christmas), a time in which they will be competing with everyone else crammed into those same few days of travel, or they book earlier and play the odds that they won't get an exam scheduled on the very last day. It's risky because the registrar doesn't set the schedule until middle of term, and the longer students wait the more costly and difficult it will get to book travel.

      I still remember the year that I gave an exam on the very last day of the Christmas exam schedule, 7-10pm at night. I think it was 4 days before Christmas. The students hated it almost as much as I did, but I was powerless to change it. Even though I always tell them at the start of class that this can happen (and that it has), I regularly get a couple every term who foolishly book their flights before they know the exam date. Then they come to me begging for a solution that doesn't cost them money. Tough luck -- they knew the risks.

      At my university, more and more instructors are setting their exams earlier or finding other ways to do the final assessment because the traditional formal exam is so inconvenient. In classes with 20 people I usually take a poll at the start of the class for when and how they want to write the final exam of a specified duration. It saves a lot of grief for everyone versus being at the whim of the registrar's office.

      I've always had to notify the registrar whether or not I would have a final exam, and I'm contractually obliged to hand out a syllabus with the grading scheme on day one. What I don't understand is why the registrar can't provide the exam schedule in the first week or two of classes. Then I can tell the students well in advance. Is it really *that* hard a programming / logistics problem?

      Basically, the registrar's failure to deal with the inconvenience of a formal exam schedule beyond instructor's and students' control has caused the instructors to find other ways to do it.

    23. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by trout007 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I was reading about the history of Universities starting in the Mid East. It was only one book but it was interesting. The Universities sounded like a mall where each professor would buy a shop and just start talking about the subject they taught. People could come and go and listen to them freely, kind of like auditing a course. Then if you were interested in that particular teacher you would sit down and tell them what you were interested in an negotiate the fee. You then became their student where they would actually interested with you in class and have private tutoring time, ect. Back then you were only learned what you were interested in and there were no degrees. I graduated with a BS in mechanical engineering and computer science. After my degrees I decide to just randomly take masters level courses that interested me. I didn't care about the degree since my job wouldn't even pay me more if I had one. But I've found I am enjoying the work more than I ever did as an undergrad.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    24. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by imthesponge · · Score: 1

      There are always a class of families who make too much to qualify for financial aid but not enough to afford tuition + expenses. Not that that's necessarily such a bad thing, it's just the way it is.

    25. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by biryokumaru · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's funny, because if you're a white, middle-class male you're automatically exempt from like 90% of the free money for college, and yet like 90% of the kids I go to school with are white, middle-class males.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    26. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Informative

      otherwise require you to hire an extra six entry level professors ($400,000, plus benefits = about half a million dollars) to handle the teaching load. Assuming an average class size of 30.

      Instead they hire 6 grad students at about $50,000 (stipend + tuition) a year with no benefits to teach the classes. I'm fine with this of course, since it's paying for my education. I'm a TA for two 30 student sections of a 200 student course. It's introductory engineering, and I find it very rewarding, since I'm one of their first real contacts at the university. I'm only a few years older than them, and I think they can relate to me better than the stodgey old professor in the giant lecture hall.

    27. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by biryokumaru · · Score: 2, Informative

      The first college I went to, several of my freshman classes had over 500 students in massive lecture halls. I failed out. Now I'm back in school, in an engineering program and getting great grades. Why? There's 8 people in the electrical engineering program for my year. That's 8 people in pretty much all of my classes. It's a huge difference.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    28. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      nah... too similar to university of phoenix online. harvard has class... you actually have to show up once and pull up to the window.

    29. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes a bulk of finals is a bit unfair esp. when 50% or more of your grade goes into it and you can't pick your exam schedule. I remember in college, one quarter I had taken 5 classes, and 3 of my finals were on the same day, early in the week, one day after the final papers were due on the other 2.

      Massively sucked. It's hard to say that after that schedule, on my 2nd or 3rd exam, it was necessarily a "fair" test to those classmates who only took 2 or 3 classes that quarter and had a more spread out exam schedule over the 5 days of finals.

      In grad school, I had a statistics class where I nearly aced every mid term, quiz, and lab session (out of like 15 tests, I had one partial credit, rest were correct). I had a compressed schedule the week of finals (I was in a dual degree program), an extended lab session the night before, and a paper due that morning of the statistics final. I finished the paper, turned it in, reviewed for the final, slept 4 hours, and fubar'd the final. Basically, I finished the final early, got the jitters, decided to check my answers because I hadn't slept, and changed half my answers...of course, I changed them from being correct to incorrect.

      My fault, stupid me, bad judgment, but it's not exactly a fair evaluation. I was annoying (that my U didn't have such a policy) when I learned other schools allowed papers to be turned in on Fridays of their exam week and students set up their final exam schedule in general testing rooms (you took the test when you were ready at some point during exam week).

      Then again, at least my week off for spring was more like 2 weeks than 1 week and an extra weekend. Too bad my college degree didn't land me any jobs, ever. Biology degrees are freaking worthless.

    30. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by mehrotra.akash · · Score: 1

      "if you copy from someone, then it is obvious when I'm quizzing you at the board to prove your assertions."

      Not so, cause its much easier to see the solution and then figure out how it was derived, rather than doing the entire solution yourself

    31. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      Chairman Claude Pepper (D FL) was investigating diploma mills. He wrote an essay and got his degree. He reported this as "I have achieved a lifelong dream. I am now Dr. Pepper."

    32. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      Funny that you'd mention that teaching style on /.. Not only does it force students to come to class, effectively marking attendance which irritates many/most of us. But in front of class on the fly answers would FAIL a large number of us regardless of math ability. And to top it off, the other thing you mark is homework? Which is hilariously easy to cheat on and therefore no indicator of intellect or understand, it only harms those that are honest and won't cheat/work together.

      Your system effectively destroys the average /.er even though many of them may be a LOT better at math than the average. Oh goody.

    33. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      The entire point of board certification, bar exams, etc. are to demonstrate that you are qualified to practice a certain profession. Those that have published scores have built in extra credit!

      Anything in universities is really inconsistent anyway, so the hell with it. If you want to fuck off for 4+ years, go nuts, good luck on your certifications.

    34. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Reverberant · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's less true at Harvard (and to a lesser extent MIT) than it has been in the past, if you're accepted they make a real effort to get you in at a cost you can afford and with minimal (or in Harvard's case, no) loans

      From the page I linked:

      • family income under$60,000: $0 contribution
      • family income $60,000 to $180,000: 0 to 10% contribution on a sliding scale.
      • Home equity not considered an asset

      I'm sure there are a handful of people who will have financial problems, but for the vast majority of students, the only impediment to attending Harvard is their academic performance.

    35. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1
      1. you obviously spread yourself too thin.

      2. you didn't land yourself any jobs, don't blame your degree. especially one suited for graduate studies in a specialized field.

      i did a dual degree program too... i graduated a semester early... i had 3 final exams on 1 day more than once... i had over 3.5 GPA. it was never a problem.

      if a student can't show up for a test a be expected to pass without cramming, there is either something wrong with the test or the student.

    36. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      so a college degree is not meant to demonstrate you are qualified to practice a certain profession... good to know that. so many people must be as confused as i was. were you the one that explained it to the harvard administration?

    37. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by onionman · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are teaching assistants and smaller "discussion" sections in which to interact and grade papers.

      Ah, I work at a lowly school. We don't have teaching assistants. The professors do all the teaching, all the discussing, and all of the grading.

      Of course, in grad school I was one of those TAs leading discussion sections like you've just described. What I realized then was that most of the learning took place either in the discussion sessions or while the students were working on their homework. Really, those giant lectures could have been video presentations and it wouldn't have made any difference to the students.

    38. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by jmerlin · · Score: 1

      I really hate this as well. It sucks especially for us graduate math students. All semester you have lectures and student-involved proofs of rather deep mathematics as well as insight-provoking assignments that can easily take 6+ hours to complete (we usually have 1 a week per course), even if it's only 5 questions. Then at the midterm and for the final you have these 1-2 hour exams where you're tested on memorization of facts where accuracy and recall of minute detail from memory is the key and you're given a lot of shallow simple problems. Worst of all the professor is a Ph.D., probably with much more experience in the field than you have. This is good from a perspective that they can teach you much and effectively answer any questions you might have, but often they will give a problem with a trick which is obvious to them but not at all obvious to you. At least not with a 1.5 hour time limit dancing around in your head effectively killing any creativity. You just want to hit yourself when 30 minutes after the test is over you remember a brilliant fact that would've made that proof a 3-liner, and even more so when your professor later says that is better than how they solved it.

      When dealing with real problems, you get time to think, and you can use books as a reference. It gets discouraging during tests like these when the only thing between you and a succinct and correct proof to the problem is that obscure step.. but you remember it.. you distinctly remember it.. you can even recall the exact theorem who's proof you were presented used it.. and perhaps you can even recall the basic idea.. but because you didn't obsess over memorizing that single fact, you can't seem to get it just right. Just "knowing about it" and being able to properly use a 800+ page book on algebra (D&F, yeah, it's huge) as a reference will only get you 1/10 points for the problem (yes, if it's not perfect, it's pretty much a failure, right?). Even worse, when you ask your professor a problem of any real complexity, like the ones they ask you, they often go straight to their text for insight as well, so if everyone does it as the source material is so vast that holding every tiny little detail in your head is difficult and counter-productive (it's not the precise detail that matters, it's the concepts and the understanding), what's the point of testing your ability to do that?

      Mathematics ceases to be a worthwhile educational choice when the material being covered reaches a complexity so involved that a seated in-class test cannot possibly provide enough time to complete a problem set that can hope to prove that you understand the material and your grade is highly impacted by such a test. It only gets worse when the small selection of material tested includes that one bit of the course you didn't fully understand, but the other 98% you have rock solid, or it's that one little minute trick that the author did without explaining it in much detail (nor did your professor, and at the time doing it in class it seemed obvious, but the huge elephant in the room that is a time limit prevents you from seeing the problem with enough clarity to recall what obviated it), leaving you with a poor grade even though you feel you sufficiently understand the material. Nothing beats walking away from a test like that, it makes you think "why the hell am I even taking these courses?"

    39. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good universities usually offer good courses (there are exceptions). But there are lots of schools that call themselves universities that offer essentially "drive through" degrees. I've worked in one. Undergrads were pissed if they got less than 3.5 in any class (and complained if they had to do homework that took more than an hour or so or if there was a hard exam). For faculty to survive student evaluations they had to make everything easy. And the instructors in intro courses (adjuncts mostly, and few with any real qualifications) got along by amusing the students and giving high grades for doing essentially nothing - this meant that the professors further along had to meet the expectations of the students to get high grades with no work. So students graduated with no real knowledge, but great GPAs. Sadly, it was even worse at the graduate level.

      If you're hiring entry level college grad types, be sure to look carefully at the schools they're graduating from - you may be hiring someone who figures that 6 hours a week is worth a 40 hour salary and who should be writing code for TDWTF.

    40. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      Do you both teach and grade the classes? The 200+ student classes I took were taught by a professor, but graded and "office hours" were typically with TAs.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    41. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 1

      in a rather cruel twist i'm finding that to progress my own career, i now have to go back to school and get the same piece of worthless paper that all those clueless graduates had,

      I'm doing the same thing. Jump through hoops, Fido, jump! Hey, look at the bright side (if you're an American). We'll be the only ones with degrees and jobs!

      Get it? Because there are no jobs for new grads, and experience trumps a piece of paper certifying 4 years of partying and frat-boy douchebaggery.

      (Oh, shit, did I just reply to a foe?)

    42. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. And honestly, I wish the math department I work for got rid of exams, because the situation now is just ridiculous.

      Continuous evaluation was recently introduced in all our courses. This is usually based on a few small tests, and assignments or projects and it should account for the complete grade of the course. So in theory students can finish their undergrad without having to do a final term exam. But at the same time all courses must still offer students two end of term exams as before, the so called "normal" exam, and the "recourse" for those who fail or wish to improve grades. And there's still a third "special" exam for those in special situations. Academic year begins in early September, and it end in the end of July. And we're obviously overloaded with markings and other teaching duties and with barely any time for research.

      So honestly, continuous evaluation, end of term exams... who cares, as long as their tested somehow. I'm much more worried with situations like this where all the focus is on giving students more opportunities, with complete disregard for the situation of the staff.

    43. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      Professor teaches lecture; I teach a recitation, hold office hours, and grade homeworks/exams. We have 6 TAs and 3 additional graders, so we split the work of grading between the 9 of us on a rotated schedule.

    44. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Myrimos · · Score: 1

      Well, I am a math professor (although at a much lowlier school than Harvard) and I've never had a great opinion of in-class testing. The simple fact is that in the short duration of an in-class test you can't give the students substantive problems to work on. Thus, in-class tests (or any other short-duration timed test) is really an exercise in "how quickly can you work lots of relatively shallow problems..."

      I had a math professor last quarter who had a poor opinion of in-class testing for exactly the reasons you mentioned, and who assigned problems which I felt were pretty difficult. I understand if you want to keep your anonymity, but you weren't by any chance my Topology professor this summer, were you?

      --
      Internet scofflaw
    45. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by onionman · · Score: 2, Informative

      "The whole fucking point of a professor is to INTERACT with the students."

      Not. That's what our current moronic spoon-feeding society thinks, wants and expects. The whole fucking point of a professor is to TEACH. Students are already quite good by themselves about INTERACTing... in campus parties.

      You sound really bitter. Are you an un-tenured professor at a big research school who feels so much pressure to publish that you don't want to spend any time dealing with students? I know how you feel. I used to be you. I went to a better place, and now I'm much happier.

      The point of the professor at my lowly school is to TEACH. Not to lecture, but to TEACH. How can you teach your students if you refuse to interact with them? I think you might be confusing "lecturing + testing" with "teaching." The two are not equivalent.

      Go read the Socratic dialogues. The best method of teaching hasn't changed in several thousand years. It's really simple human to human interaction. The teacher gives the student a challenging problem. The student struggles. The teacher gives hints and corrections, but forces the student to solve the problem.

      Ultimately, many of my students will never need all the math I teach them. That's okay. The most important thing is that they go through the process of learning it. They must learn how to learn, how to solve problems, how to think independently. Once they have mastered that, they don't need the teacher anymore. Then they can learn on their own from books or other non-interactive sources.

    46. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, what is the point of wasting resources on a classroom, when they could sit at home in front of a computer, and ask questions either at the professor's office or through Internet?

    47. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Minorities and females don't like white males, we just try harder

    48. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I've had professors who could interact with every student (who wished for or needed it) in a class of 200, and professors who couldn't manage to interact with any of a class of 10. I've concluded that it's nothing to do with numbers, and everything to do with the teacher's powers of observation and ability to apply that to individuals.

      Also, some students want or need to interact; others just want to suck down the class and get the hell out of there and would prefer to never speak to the prof. I think the good teachers figure this out as well, and learn to read their students (even en masse).

      But I was blessed with many good to excellent teachers all through school (1960-1975 including university), and very few really poor ones (a total of two).

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    49. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Gerzel · · Score: 1

      It's Ivy League...the plants hide the rot underneath and make things look pretty.

    50. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I went to college to be taught by a professor, not a fucking teaching assistant.

    51. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Reziac · · Score: 1

      "The teacher gives the student a challenging problem. The student struggles. The teacher gives hints and corrections, but forces the student to solve the problem."

      [laughing] That would be the entire school system I grew up with. The teacher and materials gave us enough info that if we put it together we'd solve the problem, but no one ever lead us by the hand. What we'd memorized one day (rote learning has its place), we'd be called upon to rearrange into something different the next. Kind of like learning a foreign vocabulary and grammar (the rote part), then being assigned an essay using your new language.

      You know the teachers are doing their job, and the materials being used are good, when the students are all too often tempted to read ahead to the next chapter before it's assigned. ;)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    52. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this professor ego to the nth degree--that their teach methods are so superior that one needs not to be tested, just in case?

    53. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by khallow · · Score: 1

      Nothing beats walking away from a test like that, it makes you think "why the hell am I even taking these courses?"

      Moral of this story. Take only classes with good test experiences.

    54. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think I can speak to this directly, being enrolled in a FAS class now. The idea seems to be that exams are not really capable of adequately measuring how well a student has "digested" the course so much as an independent research project, usually in the form of a final paper, can demonstrate. I've personally always found the challenge of producing an original paper much more intellectually satisfying than memorizing, regurgitating, and forgetting material for a final exam. It's a different kind of pressure.

    55. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Airborne-ng · · Score: 1

      "What's the point in teaching a 200 person class?"

      Over 400 in my Statistics 1 a couple years back. I believe the back 10 rows or so were all on Facebook the entire semester.

    56. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've never met anyone who thought a college degree was qualification to do anything. My MS EE represented that I spent a lot of time studying electrical engineering, but I sure as hell wasn't qualified to design or manufacture chips or circuit boards.

      The degree isn't worthless, I learned a lot of things that help me pick up real qualifications, and new technologies that help me stay relevant in the changing world...but it didn't qualify me for anything.

      And that's really the point, I paid attention, I've used the learning I picked up to my advantage. I don't need a final exam/project/pat on the head to prove that to myself. It has always been to my advantage to learn as much as I can while I can.

      The question of setting up a way to measure my fitness to a particular function is one that colleges are admitting they really have no inkling on. If you go to med school or you go to law school, you are taught by practicing professionals in your area of expertise, how to do your job (and in med school you have residency, the ultimate on the job training). They're preparing you to do a real job. Not so much for most other careers, degree and a GPA is it, and what those degrees and GPAs mean has been increasingly arbitrary for quite a while.

    57. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not true at all, you just have to go live in a place where there aren't many white males at all. If you move to Asia you will probably get a special scholarship.

    58. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by jmerlin · · Score: 1

      The only courses that fit that description are simple (read: easy or low-level) courses with very little information which can easily be memorized so that a short timed written test is requisite to demonstrate understanding of what the student was intended to learn. So that's the first few semesters of most disciplines. Testing in this manner becomes completely useless at a certain point and shouldn't be done, in pretty much every field. A written timed test doesn't prove a M.D. is ready to start practicing medicine, only experience does. A written timed test will likely not get you hired at Google, Microsoft, or any major software producing studio. A written timed test will not demonstrate that you're fit to drive a car (you actually have to do it). Why is a written timed test required to show you sufficiently understand the material in courses that cover 400+ page texts? If the author can present the material in an understandable fashion in around 400 pages, how is 3 pages of paper with sparse questions on it going to demonstrate even a tiny fraction of that information? It won't.

      The moral of the story was to not require exams in courses where they don't make sense -- they're not conducive to learning and they can easily frustrate and discourage the student. Projects make more sense in computer science and week-long take-home exams work well for mathematics. Timed written tests work well for that freshman music course where you only need to show you know the different artists and what musical pieces they made and some musical terms that you are required to know.

    59. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      or laziness to the (n+1)th degree--that they don't want to spend time grading a pile of tests that take 3 hours to fill out each.

    60. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      no one LIKES to be tested in clutch performance situations... but having to get something done RIGHT NOW is something that happens on the job all the time. if you are unable to focus on necessity, you're basically worthless.

    61. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      yeah... i can understand that most of the students and their parents treat acceptance the same as graduation... the rest is a formality. not something to be proud of ivy league.

    62. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by mysidia · · Score: 5, Funny

      Is there even such a thing as a 'classroom' that can properly accomadate 200 students, and not just be a professor in a fishtank talking to the wall?

      Sounds more like a theatre, concert hall, place where attendees of a show might sleep while a suit gives a keynote, presidential address, or a church, than a classroom...

      Professor: This is the gospel according to (book publisher)
      Students: [eyes glazed over] Glory and praise to you oh Calculus
      Professor: [canned speech]
      Professor: The word of Leibnitz
      Students: [barely awake] Thanks be to Math

    63. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      my degrees are in computer science and math, and i can design a circuit board and worked for a chip manufacturer... very odd that an electrical engineer wouldn't be able to.

    64. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by GnomeChompsky · · Score: 1

      and when I was a student at a large school with large classes, I found those discussion sections terribly personalizing, and remained silent during them - not because I wasn't interested or wasn't smart (I'm doing a PhD right now), but because I am an introvert. I never felt like I learned very much in them, because I'd absorbed the material during the giant lecture; eventually I stopped going to them.

      Large class sizes have their benefits.

    65. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by onionman · · Score: 1

      Funny that you'd mention that teaching style on /.. Not only does it force students to come to class, effectively marking attendance which irritates many/most of us. But in front of class on the fly answers would FAIL a large number of us regardless of math ability. And to top it off, the other thing you mark is homework? Which is hilariously easy to cheat on and therefore no indicator of intellect or understand, it only harms those that are honest and won't cheat/work together.

      Your system effectively destroys the average /.er even though many of them may be a LOT better at math than the average. Oh goody.

      Those are misconceptions that many of my students come in with.

      Even for the nerdy introvert, there is great value in learning how to present your solutions in front of an audience on the fly. This is a skill that is far better learned in college where it is okay to mess up a lot than on the job where messing up in front of an important client can be a career ending move.

      As for cheating on my homework... It doesn't matter if you've worked with other people or found a solution on the internet. I've had students do both all the time. It's EASY for a real mathematician to see.The way I explain it to my students is like this: I'm a parent. I have little kids. I can tell when they're lying because try as they might the pieces of their stories don't fit together. It's just as easy for me to tell when a student hasn't developed a proof of a theorem on his or her own. The students see this happen to other students during the first couple classes, and they stop trying to cheat. They also learn that I don't care about the "final answer." I care about how they solved the problem. I care about how they are thinking! I expect mistakes, that's part of the learning process.

      By the way, this is why most graduate schools have some sort of oral qualifiers. You can't cheat your way through an oral exam administered by experts. It just isn't possible.

    66. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by ravenspear · · Score: 1

      I went to college to be taught by a professor, not a fucking teaching assistant.

      That's all well and good, but I found that in many of my harder classes (like higher maths), the professors focused a lot on theory and other things that sometimes weren't directly related to solving the problems posed on the tests/exams.

      The TAs were much more focused on helping you to pass the class, so they often presented the material in a much more practical way that made more sense and actually helped you learn the mechanics of what you were expected to know.

    67. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

      Your spelling of "through" disturbs me.

      --
      My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
    68. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

      lots and lots of really hard take-home problems.

      I'm in my Junior year of an EE degree, just finished Differential Equations last Spring, so the nightmares of Calculus still haunt me.

      Consistently, calculus teachers seem to love assigning more homework than I would have to do for every other class in my schedule, combined. 10-15 problems every night to be collected the next day. They were straight out of the book, so they got incrementally harder as you raised in number, normal calc class stuff.

      Except for one teacher, who assigned about 5 problems a week, but they were the hardest problems he could find for the material covered that week. I actually learned about the same amount in both cases, but was not chronically sleep deprived by the second teacher.

      Please, for your students sanity, small numbers of very hard problems is better than lots and lots of problems of any difficulty.

    69. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by penguinchris · · Score: 1

      Do you really get your entire tuition paid for, and a presumably large stipend if it totals to $50,000, for teaching two 30 student sections?

      I taught three 30 student sections for under $20,000 a year (two semesters) and tuition is supposed to come out of that (a relatively inexpensive state school, but a large state school in California with its ridiculous budget problems still means $2-3000 a semester for grad students), so I'm just wondering. Based on my limited research into the matter, I think I did pretty well compared to what most schools offer. So I can't tell if you're just exaggerating or if you got some ridiculously great deal at an expensive school. I went to an expensive private school for my undergrad degree, and the TAs there definitely were not getting their tuition paid for, at least not by being TAs.

      And yeah, I also greatly enjoyed it, and the students were able to connect with me much more easily than with the professors. In my case, as a grad student at 22 and 23 some of the students were actually older than me ;)

    70. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by penguinchris · · Score: 1

      I took a few courses like this, and it greatly depends on the professor how well it works. Generally, universities have good lecture halls that can handle the load if they offer these size courses, but the professor has to know how to utilize the space properly and to teach to the entire room and not just the front row (although most of the back rows can safely be ignored since they probably don't care).

      Of maybe three or four course like this I took (can't remember how many) only one professor could really do it, and he was really good. He somehow made it seem like a much smaller class than it actually was, and got to know many of the students, not just the ones who sit in the front row.

    71. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      In higher level classes, no. And most universities with large classes lower the class size as the classes get more difficult. But I learned a hell of a lot from some of my freshman classes with 100+ students. What you do need is lots of TAs. All our tests for the one were in-class written essays. And they were graded quite thoroughly. I've gotten more out of my 100+ student physics classes and the one architecture class than I have out of some of my 20 student calc or stats classes. If the professor sucks, you won't learn anything no matter how small the class is. And if the professor knows what they're doing, they could probably teach a thousand students well. Again, this may not hold for _all_ classes, but there's certainly no reason to entirely dismiss larger class sizes.

    72. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by anagama · · Score: 3, Informative

      (even if Med school and Law school are really just post-graduate vocational training).

      This is an interesting portion of your comment. I'm a lawyer, and while law school was less nuts&bolts than you might think, the law school experience was quite a bit different than college. When I look back on it, law school isn't exactly hard, it's just grueling, kind of like walking across Texas in the summer would be. College was a whole lot more fun because the volume of information required to get through was so much smaller. Another interesting thing about law school was the number of unhappy people who were used to sliding easily into A grades, endlessly whining about their C- grades at the end of the first semester.

      Back on topic, I wonder what law school would have been like without finals. Nice profs would give a midterm and final. Most simply gave a final exam at the end of the semester. Talk about performance anxiety -- blow the one test and blow the class. On the other hand, you literally can blow a case with one forgotten question to a key witness (*) so being put on the spot like that was sort of primer for real life.

      (*) It doesn't usually happen, but I cruised to an easy win once after a plaintiff rested (I didn't even have to present my case) because opposing counsel forgot to ask a doctor whether his opinion was expressed on a "more probable than not probable" certainty level. Had he asked just one more question, there would have been an issue for the jury to decide, but because he forgot, my motion to dismiss was granted and the jury sent home. Miss a key magic phrase and you lose. Now that's some serious testing.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    73. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by onionman · · Score: 1

      Hang in there jmerlin! I certainly have felt your pain. My best advise is go talk to your professors. Even the research-focused professors are usually willing to spare time to talk with grad students. Show them that you have mastered the material by going over the HW problems with them, and they will realize that you are learning and adjust their grading accordingly.

    74. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by kainosnous · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's not just college, it's true for life in America in general. The basic principle is that you pay for something because you want more of it. Also, tax breaks are just another type of subsidy. It seems that the government wants more unsuccessful black people, more broken families, more poverty, more women working outside of the home, and more artificially large businesses. I would have thought Harvard would be more accepting of white middle-class males than the rest of our society.

      --
      There are 10 commandments: 01)Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God 10)Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Matt22:34-40
    75. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by onionman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      lots and lots of really hard take-home problems.

      Please, for your students sanity, small numbers of very hard problems is better than lots and lots of problems of any difficulty.

      Actually, I completely agree with you. I was oversimplifying in my original post, partially for brevity, and partially because if I describe too much more about myself then I will loose what little anonymity is available here.

      I assign a lot of hard problems, but I don't require my students to do all of them. I will usually have a small number of problems that I want everyone to do, then I'll let the students pick from the others. For example, I might have 10 hard problems on a weekly assignment. I'll indicate 3-4 problems that I want everyone to do, then I might have the students pick 1-2 others to work. So, a given student might only have to work 5 problems, but when we present the problems in class everyone has the advantage of seeing a solution to each problem worked out.

    76. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by onionman · · Score: 1

      It wasn't me! However, I think you'll find that there are a number of math professors who use this method. It usually works best in small, upper-level classes.

    77. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by h4rm0ny · · Score: 2, Funny

      the only impediment to attending Harvard is their academic performance.

      You were really getting my hopes up there, until that last sentence.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    78. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by severoon · · Score: 5, Informative

      Does anyone know the percentage of Harvard students that graduate cum laude? Magna cum laude? Summa cum laude?

      (Hint: 50% graduate with these "rare" honors.)

      Anyone care to guess what the average GPA is for a Harvard grad?

      Why oh why did I have to go to school somewhere they didn't inflate grades? Studying makes college so much more challenging than it needs to be, apparently.

      --
      but have you considered the following argument: shut up.
    79. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by onionman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Good luck with your PhD!

      Of course, I was generalizing. Different people learn in different ways. What I have observed seems to apply to most, but certainly not all, students.

      One of the reasons I don't bother taking attendance is because I know that there are some students who will learn perfectly well on their own. As long as they are doing well in the class, there is no reason to force them to show up.

    80. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Haedrian · · Score: 1

      I'm a student and I can assure you that Examinations (in ICT at least - assume its the same for the others), are in no way indicative of skill or ability in that topic.

      There are people who study a lot, and get a good mark , there are people who are 'naturally adapt' at the topic, study less and get less marks.

      And once you go out into the workforce, don't expect it to be ANYTHING like examinations.

      I agree with this change, at higher levels at least (not primary or whatever) - more assignments, more 'practice', more hands-on-group work and less exams.

    81. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by PaladinAlpha · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I chose this comment to reply to as it was your most recent.

      The stuff you've been posting through this thread about your methods, insights, and experiences is really, really interesting to a fledgling PhD student, and you've put a lot of effort into composing clear, well-phrased replies to a number of questions. I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to put it into writing; people like you are what keep me coming back to this site, because by God there are honestly intelligent people out there willing to talk about interesting stuff.

      Anyway. That's all I've got.

    82. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly the same experience. During my College Calculus classes the Professor teaching class of ~90 would explain all the theory behind the issues currently discussed, and even would go into explaining history of things. This was, mind you - aimed at people doing non-math & non-CS/eng majors. Only later, when we went to the small study sessions with teaching assistants (~20 ppl / session) we were told "oh, actually you are only supposed to know how to solve this and that problem" and would actually be shown how to do that... And that happens in many crappy college courses. OTOH, there were also professors who would actively engage even mid-sized classes with 1-on-1 interaction, usually at great sacrifice to their outside-of-classroom time. It's hard, however, because in many GOOD universities research / funding comes first, then long nothing, and then comes teaching.

    83. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So are you suggesting that if two people submitted the exact same trancsscript (if you know they hadn't cheated, for example) then you could possibly award one a higher mark than the other?

      Most exams in the UK try and get rid of that bias via means of a candidate number and a folder down piece of paper.

      It's also impractical to teach some glasses that small. My Calc class had more than 200 people. Its straight forward stuff. We had a Ph.D student as a tutor every week who marked our homework..

    84. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 1

      I'd mod you down if I had any mod points. But I don't, so I'll tell you why you're wrong instead. Harvard isn't getting rid of final exams. Usually, only the very large classes will make use of the 3 hour registrar-run final exams, but other classes have in-class finals, take-home finals, final projects, etc.

      --
      Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
      Africus aut Europaeus?
    85. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "the only impediment to attending Harvard is their academic performance. "

      Not true. Most colleges deny shitloads of fully qualified applicants because they simply don't have enough room. This isn't an accident, this is intentional. The more students that a school rejects, the better they are. A huge impediment to attending harvard is the fact that they need to be seen as "selective" in order for their diplomas to be given way more weight than they deserve.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    86. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "Why oh why did I have to go to school somewhere they didn't inflate grades?"

      Are you fucking insane? No college would ever give out lots of 4.0s. The reason for this is that the more students they fail, the better they look. People assume that failing means that the college is too hard for you and not a result of a curve that FORCES a certain percentage of failures. Any college that inflates its grades would be laughed out of a position of legitimacy in a matter of days. I'd be surprised if more than a larger than average number of people graduated from harvard with 4.0s.

      Unless you can back up your assertions with actual statistics, I'm calling bullshit.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    87. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      30 students is a lot? I guess it wouldn't work with 200 then

      You lecture to 200 students. You don't teach 200 students (that lies in the area of mythology and fantasy).

      The professor has already answered your reply successfully. I am merely pointing out and emphasizing the stupidity of the Moderators who up-moderated your thoughtless and ignorant statement.

    88. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by blue_goddess · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the difference between brilliant coder, and brilliant at paying someone else to code for them is hard to check for.

      No, it is not. In fact it's suprisingly easy to check, easier than check for cheating on written exam. I know three good methods:

      • ask to describe a chunk of code
      • delete a chunk and ask to recode
      • ask to code additional feature

      The last one works best at Objective Programming, but not only.

      --
      As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.
    89. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 1

      I've actually started saying "Hahvahd" whilst dropping the "H"-bomb. It's far more amusing and less awkward.

      --
      Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
      Africus aut Europaeus?
    90. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Given that most students only show up to school to get a degree to fill a job requirement line item, and will neither use the knowledge they allegedly collected nor attempt to apply it"

      What are you basing this on? Let's say you want to be a mechanical engineer. Let's say I design a part for a satellite that's being launched next year. How do you determine whether or not a design I give you will withstand the forces of a launch? What do I use to damp the high frequency vibrations that the optics package won't tolerate during launch?

      These are very real problems that thousands of engineers are actually working on every day. This isn't some stupid thought problem that no one has to deal with. To solve the problem you need to know calculus, mechanics of materials, statics, physics, etc. Where do they teach this info on-the-job? Name a single company that teaches you how to design satellite parts without any knowledge beyond 12th grade and I'll eat my fucking hat.

      People like you assume that every single degree is worthless. Your child, or yourself, got a degree in business, or art, or history, found that no one would pay you thousands of dollars to sit around on your ass critiquing other people's work and came to the nonsense conclusion that EVERY degree is worthless. I mean, your art degree doesn't let you do anything useful, how could an engineering degree be any different? You passed all of your classes by skipping lectures and showing up drunk or stoned to every test, how could an engineering degree be any more difficult to obtain? You fucked the teacher to pass a class, how could a real college be any different?

      Seriously, you need to fucking think for a little bit before deciding that "EVERY DEGREE IS WORTHLESS AND COLLEGE IS AN ENTIRELY BROKEN SYSTEM". I don't think that college is flawless and I DO actually think that there's a huge push for everyone to obtain college degrees regardless of whether or not they need them. However, you cannot assume that because there's a small set of people that have worthless degrees that no one has a real one.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    91. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I don't know where you're getting those numbers, but they're complete bullshit. My family income was under 100k, and they had us paying somewhere between 40-50%. We asked why they weren't giving me more aid, and their answer was that we owned our house and that we should mortgage it. I kid you not. There is a vast gulf between Harvard's published financial aid levels and what they actually give to the student. Oh, and around $3000 of what they give to you is actually money you're supposed to earn yourself with a "term-time job".

      --
      Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
      Africus aut Europaeus?
    92. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 1

      This is exactly how it works at Harvard. About halfway through the year, the registrar will publish the exam schedule. You can tell beforehand if you're going to have conflicts, because when you first register for a class, it will come with an "exam group," but that has nothing to do with whether or not the the class actually has an official 3-hour final exam, or when the exam will be. Anyhow, the registrar hates the students with a burning passion. Every single year I was there 2005-2009, the final exams in the biggest four or so classes would be held on the last two days of exam period. I don't know why they did this, but it kept most of the student body on campus during the freezing-cold Boston January (until last year, final exams were held after the Christmas break), and stopped us from enjoying an extended intersession. I still hate those bastards.

      --
      Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
      Africus aut Europaeus?
    93. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by randomsearch · · Score: 1

      I completely agree that without interaction, lectures may as well be videos.

      However, there are ways to make large lectures interactive. For example, dividing students into groups and them interacting with each other. Or allowing students to vote on certain issues. The opportunity to ask questions is something you don't get with videos. The list is surprisingly long, but it requires research and careful planning to do well.

      RS

    94. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most such lecture classes aren't taught by professors. They're taught by the slave labor of the academic world - graduate assistants! :-)

    95. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Chatterton · · Score: 1

      When I was 14 after reading an article about how to add a second KB of memory to my sinclair ZX81, I have digged a little more the schematics of what they have done and then added by myself 31 more KB of memory to it. Designing a circuit board for the Z80A is 'easy' and somehow very permissive on the length of the wires, the way they are placed and so. Now, I will never try to develop a circuit board for processing video signal in the GHz/THz frequencies like I have see it bening done during one of my school summer work. It is more in the black art of creating it than applying the beautiful rules you can learn in school. In such board from time to time you need to make a wire go around the board or go from a side of the board to the other side and go back to the first side for no good reason other than to make 2 holes in the board and having the signal go thru these 2 hole for contering a radio frequency generated by the board. You will never learn that in school, and making this kind of board need a lot of experience and try and errors until you find the place where you can and should do this and a lot of other littles tricks to make everything work.

      I don't deny what you have achieved, but I thing that the GP because he know what EE is about and its complexities take the low profile on the evaluation of its knowledge in his domain because he know that from time to time EE is more complex than the way it is described during school and that you don't learn everything in school.

    96. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      50% of the ones that graduate, or 50% of the intake? I can't speak for Harvard, but at my university these were very different numbers. Around 30% of the intake dropped out before completing their degree in my year and this was not unusual. Very few people got the lowest grades - most of the people who were going to realised before the final year and didn't bother coming back.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    97. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Why? A professor is there because he is an expert in his field and is doing world-class research. This does not necessarily mean that he is a good teacher.

      In general, I find that it's best to learn from someone who learned the material themselves quite recently. The difficulties are then fresh in their mind and they can easily explain things that they found hard to understand. Someone who has been doing research in an area for 20 years forgets that it's actually hard when you start learning it.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    98. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      If the purpose of the professor is not to interact with students, why is he there at all? Just give them a book or an instruction video that they can watch in their own and don't waste everyone's time with the lectures.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    99. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      Some of my Scout buddies decided to use people's names in place of cuss words because some adults were annoyed with the foul language

      "You sun of a brady! I've had enough of this bull-schmidt", et cetera.

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    100. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      did we have to pick on the cheesy Boston accent joke?

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    101. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      +1 Funny
      Anyway, 200 would be a very large class, but a very small concert hall. Special-event speech, maybe

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    102. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by xaxa · · Score: 1

      How much is 40-50%?

      Just for comparison, an English student whose family income is over £60k (about $100k) doesn't get any grants, but does get the very-low-rate student loan from the government. It's about £4k/year (to cover living costs) and £3k/year (to cover 100% of the tuition fees). You don't need to pay it back until you finish university and are earning more than £16k/year.

      Students with a lower family income get a larger loan, and (if it's low enough) a grant -- up to another few thousand pounds per year, I think, depending on the income.

      (And in some other countries there are no tuition fees, or many living costs are paid, or everyone gets a grant.)

    103. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are NOTHING.

    104. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 1

      The total cost is around $45,000 per year.

      --
      Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
      Africus aut Europaeus?
    105. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

      What's the point in teaching a 200 person class? You can't interact with them at all,

      But for a low-cost education that doesn't lead to massive debt, it works. The prof has to explain well in order to avoid pesky students lining up at his/her office. For many such classes there is a lab session where assistants interact. If all goes according to plan the students should come out with actual knowledge.

      For that matter, these courses should be available as do-it-yourself kits. Surely after decades of modern education getting the first university degree for anyone literate would be distilled to a formula. I daresay toy companies like Lego would have parents falling all over them if they produced Legoland chemistry for ages 17+

      --
      Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
    106. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by DukeLinux · · Score: 1

      It all comes back to this... After you have "paid" sufficient money they hand you a degree. That's all. It is becoming nothing more than a monetary exchange. Perhaps I should send my daughter abroad for college.

    107. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Missing.Matter · · Score: 3, Informative

      I teach two sections of 30 students. My hard commitment is 2 1 hr labs and 2 hrs of office hours per week. I should supposedly be spending 20 hours a week on TA duty, (teaching, preparing, grading, dealing with student questions) but supposedly in practice it's much less (I say supposedly because it's only the first week)

      The math works out as follows: Tuition is $1000 per credit, and 9 credits is a full load, so tuition is $9,000 per semester. I get paid $2,500 per month with my stiped, including the summer, so that comes out to $48,000 a year.

      I've found this practice of paying full tuition to be pretty standard among PhD programs in the sciences and engineering. Thing are usually different for Masters and Liberal Arts.

    108. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      Because the goal of math class is to teach social skills now? And no, your class will cause aspbergers students to fail, not learn. I imagine they will be aiming for jobs where they do not have to speak in front of a group of 20-300 people.

      Funny that you think you have some waterproof system for catching cheaters. All that you know is that some people ARE cheating and that you can catch some people. You have no idea the number of people cheating and no idea what % of those you are catching. On top of that there could be false positives. Truthiness and trust is what you are going on and I can guarantee that students in your class are cheating and getting away with it. GUARANTEE.

    109. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Danish_guy · · Score: 1

      As a teacher, I for one welcome this way of grading students.

      Exams has always been a flimsy look at a student at best. Students who perform well all year, but perform poorly under stress(read: exams) can have a whole years worth of great grades bonkered by a single day of intense stress. Likewise, a student who has done next to nothing all year, may get lucky at the exam and score a high grade, following a years worth of low grades.

      Grading the students throughout the full year gives you both a sense of the work morale and the students general level of accomplishment. Of course there would have to be graded papers/Assignments/etc. throughout the year to compensate for the loss of the exam.

      If we look a bit further than just the education in it self, we see that in almost no workplaces will you be asked to work alone for four hours, in a small confined room, with no outside help and then be expected to write the next great novel/design a bridge from scratch/prove string theory.

      Most workplaces here(Denmark) either half, or fully disregards exam grades and instead look at the yearly grades, to get a sense of how this person will behave on a daily basis.

      If educational institutions insist on keeping the old exam style, the least they can do if give the students access to the internet, to give a better likeness to how their worklife will be. Gladly I can say that in Denmark we're already beginning to do this, but still far too slow for my taste.

      In general the biggest problem many educational institutions has at the moment is that they don't follow the times around them. and those who do a generally still always a few paces behind.

    110. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by XueLang · · Score: 1

      What, you mean you don't want a doctor with no more than a high school education? ;)

      --
      Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
    111. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mobilya http://www.ciftcioglumobilya.com

    112. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by kevinNCSU · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What, you mean you don't want a doctor with no more than a high school education? ;)

      Oh don't worry, we only let them learn on the job with the patients that are really old anyways.

    113. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      i mean if you can trust the professor without testing the student, why not trust the student directly? why make the student get out of their car?

      Given that most students only show up to school to get a degree to fill a job requirement line item, and will neither use the knowledge they allegedly collected nor attempt to apply it, what's wrong with drive through degrees?

      Most jobs out there really need vocational training, but in the US that's tantamount to telling your child to go be a ditch digger (even if Med school and Law school are really just post-graduate vocational training). Instead we send them to Universities and tell our friends which University our child attends, where they drink, fuck and dig themselves in to debt for 3-4 years. Then, with their BA or BS, they march forth into the working world, expecting to learn everything important on the job.

      I really have nothing else to add other than bolding out this statement of truth. The country has too many college graduates and too few trained technicians. As a country, we are too fucking stupid to realized skilled force != masses of BA/BS degrees. It is a costly mistake that we will pay dearly at some point or another in the future.

    114. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by siwelwerd · · Score: 1

      What's the point in teaching a 200 person class? You can't interact with them at all

      On the contrary, I've seen it done successfully in calculus courses. It of course involved doing something other than just talking at them for an hour, which is what 95+% of these things end up being, but it is not impossible.

    115. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by AltairDusk · · Score: 1

      Here in the US the loans work a little differently. You can get some lower rate loans from the federal government if you qualify but you will likely still need private loans as well. Even the federal loans are variable rate now (I believe mine are at ~6% and my private ones at ~8%), you have a certain amount of time after graduation before you have to start paying them back but there is no clause that delays repayment until you are making X amount per year. For those unfortunate ones who end up way over their heads with no job or a very low paying job and no way to pay off the loans student loans are nearly impossible to have forgiven in a bankruptcy.

      For a little perspective I attended a well-respected science/engineering school (RPI). I managed to land a very generous scholarship and I had a bit of help from my parents paying for tuition. I still graduated with ~$60,000 in debt, some of my friends graduated with $200,000 in debt or more and the college was still raising their tuition last I checked (seems to be a trend among many schools).

      With tuition costs rising around the nation and employers wanting college degrees for more and more categories of jobs it seems like a catch-22 for students looking at college right now. When jobs that don't pay enough to pay off the loans required for college require a college degree to get the job I don't see a stable situation long term.

    116. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by kevinNCSU · · Score: 1

      Well, he's probably not teaching at a school for aspbergers, and while that may sound offensive at first your suggestion that he can't teach the general population this way because that subset might exist in hiding is akin to saying he can't ask students to solve problems on the whiteboard because some students might be in wheel chairs and not be able to reach it and somehow he'd never know and wouldn't make exceptions for them, not understanding why when he called them to the front of the class they just struggled to reach the board for 2 minutes then broke down crying. Must be because they're cheating. And oh my God, what if someone's blind and doesn't tell him? They won't even be able to see the board!!! That disabled-hating bastard ought to be reading every single thing out-loud rather then writing anything down. Oh wait, but someone could be deaf, better switch everything to braille handouts just to be safe.

      Guess what? Every University in this country has exceptions for students with medical conditions and it's usually a set in stone standard part of every syllabus for every class that the student should make any conditions known to the professor so they can better work with them. If they have a diagnosed medical condition exceptions will always be made. If they just like their nerd cave and don't want to talk to people too bad, part of what universities want to claim about their degree recipients is that they are well rounded and capable of interacting with people. Rather then forcing you to take Speaking and Basic Social Interaction 101 you just have to be able to talk in front of people in some of your other classes.

      You're really going to narrow the fields you can work in if you can't do this anyways. I work at a mainly algorithms and R&D company and the interview process requires you to give a 40 minute technical presentation to the entire division coupled with the day's one on one interviews. Being able to communicate with fellow human beings is slightly integral to the foundations of society.

    117. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by am+2k · · Score: 1

      Well, I am an engineer (computer science) with a Master's degree, and nearly all of the stuff I'm using at the job now I learned at home reading books, web pages, scientific papers and just fiddling around. Even the stuff I needed during studying I learned that way.

    118. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Universities, especially big-name ones like the Ivys, hate giving out low grades. So they don't. They get most of their money from tuition and alumni grants, and pumping the grades up keeps these two groups happy and paying out. This is particularly endemic at the graduate levels.

      And, seriously, you need references? Is Google broken? 5 seconds:
      http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/magazine/articles/2008/10/05/doesnt_anybody_get_a_c_anymore/
      In 1950, 15% of students at Harvard got a B+ or higher. In 2007, >50% were A or higher.

      http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2006/2/13/c-minus-prof-to-give-more-as/
      "I was very delighted that I would find out what he thinks of my true performance while not hurting my transcript,"

    119. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by leptogenesis · · Score: 2, Informative
      If you want statistics on Harvard, here they are:

      http://www.gradeinflation.com/Harvard.html

      The rest of gradeinflation.com gives much more information you may find interesting.

      The reason for this is that the more students they fail, the better they look.

      This is also incorrect. Far more important in the school's rankings are (a) the percent of their admitted class to accept the admissions offer, and (b) a higher number of students who get job offers after graduating. This incentivizes schools to lower failure rates (US News and World Report reports graduation rates and rolls them into rankings because they know it turns off most prospective students), and also to increase grades to make their students' resumes look better.

    120. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by lowrydr310 · · Score: 1

      Amen.

      My "final exams" usually destroyed my overall averages in most of my engineering classes. I simply wasn't a good test taker, no matter how much in advance I prepared. I never had a problem understanding theories and the substance behind the course material, but just didn't do well at taking tests. I never had a problem with the courses that were project-based; I aced the two graduate level EE design courses I took, as a direct result of coming up with an interesting project idea, implementing it, and delivering a detailed summary. The funny thing is those courses are most directly related to all the real-world work I've done, and they had the most impact on preparing me to be a real engineer (not just a code monkey).

    121. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by AltairDusk · · Score: 1

      At my school that classroom was also used by one of the clubs as a movie theater.

    122. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The entire point of board certification is to limit the amount of competition in a given field allowing those already in it to charge more for their services. The reason you gave is the excuse a professional organization uses to justify creating such a barrier to entry to their field. This does not mean that such tests do not accomplish the purpose that the excuse presents, just that that is not their real purpose and accomplishing it is secondary to limiting the amount of competition in a given field.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    123. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So essentially, as someone above you had posted, med school and law school is just post-graduate vocational training, which carries a little more clout than welding.

    124. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Software Engineering ISN'T real engineering. It is one step above Tech support. Get a real engineering degree, like Mechanical, Electrical, Computer, or Aeronautical engineering where you actually build something. Not like writing instructions in a text file and throwing into a compiler.

    125. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you fucking insane? No college would ever give out lots of 4.0s. The reason for this is that the more students they fail, the better they look.

      You must not work in higher ed.

      Retention/graduating rate statistics factor in to college rankings, regional and national accreditation, governance reports... the number of students with perfect GPAs does not.

      If you fail half your student body out, that is most definitely considered not a good thing. Much as many professors want to be the "tough" one, and harken back to a better day when their disciplines were more challenging (read: when they were in school), it's simply not true that a college looks "better" because of more failure.

      Now, having a challenging course or two that may involve a re-take at some point does give students and faculty some sort of sense of pride, and some people outside that community may respect that. But grade inflation is extremely real in part because of administrative requirements (college rankings, athletics eligibility come to mind), and isn't going away just because they want to look cool.

    126. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by cowscows · · Score: 1

      Fair enough, but multiply this by 100 students that you need to schedule and test over the course of a couple days, and it's a little more difficult than imagining a good way of checking.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    127. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These are not intended to be weed-out classes, they are fundamentals. Calculus. Chemistry. Physics.

      However, they do weed-out the weak, so maybe you can call them weed-out.

      I have seen both ways, big and small. The best I had at GT, with professor "double F" Neff, "one F for you!" Giant lecture halls with a good, prepared, experienced professor. Small recitations with TAs where you can ask questions and see problems worked. If you limit class sizes, you have to hire 10+ instructors of dubious ability / motivation / background. 10+ TAs in recitation sections can do less damage.

    128. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if the student does not own a car?

    129. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by xaxa · · Score: 1

      These figures would be the same wherever I went, although it was a well respected science/engineering university.

      The interest rate on UK student loans is currently 1.5% (the minimum allowed: if it genuinely followed the metric it's supposed to track it would be 0% because of the economy last year). Mine totals about £20,000, which is 4 * (~£4000 + ~£1000) -- tuition used to be £1000, now it's £3000; and the living cost loan is £1000 extra as I went to university in London, which gets you a bigger loan to cover the higher living costs.

      I worked in the summers, did a 6-month placement, and tried to do cheap social things most of the time. I didn't need any other money. I think my sister has about £1000-per-year interest-free loan from her bank, which will suddenly stop being interest-free about two years after she graduates. She lived in a normal (cheap) town, but didn't work in the summers, and drinks more than I did, which probably makes up the difference.

      The government sets a maximum for tuition fees. They're (yet again) debating whether to increase the maximum, or somehow change the way degrees are funded.

      I don't think you'll find many British students with more than, say, £6000 in 'risky' (non-government) debt, no matter what lifestyle they had.

    130. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      Harvard graduates 97 percent of its students

    131. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by blue_goddess · · Score: 1

      Of course you're right, but 1) who said there's only one who's got to check all projects 2) you can arrange for sequential checking with 15-20min per project team (in case you'd allow doing project in pairs) 3) it's not hard to do that in parallel (one team is coding while you choose which subroutine to wipe in another project).

      All of above is fairly standard procedure on my university in Poland. (I am a student of Warsaw University of Technology). Lecturers are required to announce if there will be formal exam, project ar whatever he/she choses as a way to measure our knowledge at the end of course. Moreover, we know if there is exam or something else when we choose courses for next semester, long before actual lectures begin. Nobody sees anything wrong with that.

      --
      As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.
    132. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by sycodon · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      They ought to just cut the crap and simply give the kids a degree after daddy dumps the pickup load of cash at the registrar's office. Saves time and effort on everyone's part and doesn't compromise the educational value at all.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    133. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by ottothecow · · Score: 1
      How the eff do you graduate with 200k in debt (unless you are talking about more than an undergrad degree which wouldn't make sense since everyone else is talking about getting a bachelors)? You're doing it wrong.

      I just looked at RPI's published tuition, it is a hair under 40K...that still leaves room for 10k living expenses if you financed the entire degree. Now consider that your friends have already graduated and thus were paying lower tuition when they started (I started at one of the more expensive universities in 2005 and the annual price tag is now $10k higher for somebody starting 2010).

      This then assumes that you don't get any help from parents (this may be so), but then also that you don't work at all in the 4 years you are there. If your parents aren't helping to pay...maybe you need to think about finding a part time job and paid summer internships?

      If you can't figure out how go finish a 4-year degree with less than 200k in debt, maybe you're at the wrong school

      --
      Bottles.
    134. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      Latin honors aren't too important, with plain cum laude being pretty diluted. But even it is at least a gold star for those who tried for more than gentleman's Cs. Summa cum laude still means you are in the top 5% of your class, which is rare enough.

    135. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by cecille · · Score: 1

      I'm currently at the University of Waterloo doing a PhD in the Electrical and Computer Engineering department. It's in Canada, so it's not a big 10 school, but it has a solid reputation as a pretty decent school, especially in engineering. For our program, it's expected that a grad student maintains at least a 78% average with 75% being a pass. This means that if you're running a grad course, and you think that a student should pass the course, you basically have to give them at least a 75%. The end result is that if you graduate from the program, you're almost guaranteed an A average.

      The requirements are listed here: http://ece.uwaterloo.ca/Graduate/PhD/

      --
      ...no two people are not on fire.
    136. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Some+Pig! · · Score: 1

      To a large extent corporations not only are OK with this, but encourage more of it with ever increasing degree requirements!

      Yes...

      An unstructured, pure-vocational model of post-high-school education would be cheaper in money and lifespans. It may arrive. The present system is unsustainable.

      But there are factors keeping it in place for the moment. One significant factor is that employers are barred by law from general IQ testing. Higher education can be viewed as a vast and expensive indirect proxy for such testing.

    137. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Local+ID10T · · Score: 1

      It's funny, because if you're a white, middle-class male you're automatically exempt from like 90% of the free money for college, and yet like 90% of the kids I go to school with are white, middle-class males.

      Being a white male, from a middle class family, means you are expected to go to college in order to earn your place as a wage slave -making enough to live, sometimes comfortably, sometimes not, but never enough to get out of debt.

      --
      "You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." -George Carlin
    138. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      You must be a real engineer, because your ego and shitty social skills fit the profile. And just for the record, YOU don't actually build something. You DESIGN something. If building something is the criteria for an engineer then the software engineer usually designs AND builds, so they seem to fit the profile.

    139. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      What are you basing this on? Let's say you want to be a mechanical engineer. Let's say I design a part for a satellite that's being launched next year. How do you determine whether or not a design I give you will withstand the forces of a launch? What do I use to damp the high frequency vibrations that the optics package won't tolerate during launch?

      I think you missed the point. All those things may be critical in your line of work, and maybe you went to school and your school had a high level of integrity, gave you hard but relevant exams and graded you based on your performance.

      Maybe Joe slob went to another school which had a low level of integrity, let students slide through exams and gave them high grades for shitty work.

      You and Joe send your resumes to NASA. They see you have a BSME with a 2.5 GPA, and Joe has a BSME with a 3.8GPA. Who do they call to interview? Multiply that by thousands, and they may never even want to LOOK at you.

      You may be immensely more qualified, and actually know your shit, but because college degrees and testing aren't apples-to-apples comparisons, your school's integrity makes you look like a failure. And the kicker is the guys they hire probably CAN'T do as well as you could.

      If a school, has a hard time getting students into the workforce after they graduate, it creates a problem for them. Their answer will always be to modify the quantifiable metrics they control to assist students in job placement. Ultimately even Harvard will feel those effects.

      You NEED to get educated, whether you do it yourself or you attend a university. Whatever works for you, and whatever you can afford. I'm not seriously arguing that you can be ignorant and become a doctor. But the piece of paper that says you actually ARE QUALIFIED is the board certification for your state. There's no reason that shouldn't be true in other professions as well. Universities thus return to what they are exist for: giving students access to information, and they can also modify their curriculum to be more suitable for what students really pay money for.

    140. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Josh04 · · Score: 1

      Women working?! *shakes fist*

    141. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      I suppose that is true. I guess I'm thinking about math schools. At the top math school in Canada (Waterloo) I'd estimate that something like 20% or more of the math students have varying degrees of aspbergers / autistic spectrum. And double that figure have social anxiety of some form or another. So I would say that more than 50% of students in a math program in a heavy math/nerd school would have problems with this. It isn't rare or unusual at all. But I see your point.

      Also, I guess I take issue to the idea of schools conflating different skills together. Seems pretty stupid. Public speaking and Sequential Calculus are as different as Bio-Chemistry and literature studies. People would raise hell if they were expected to know bio-chem in their shakespeare class. The only reason the same isn't true for presentations is because that's the way it has been.

    142. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Back in the day (i.e. get off my lawn, kid) when I was a grad student, I taught the "shocks for jocks" class a.k.a. basic circuits for non-EEs. Lots of folks working on majors in CE, ME, Physics, etc trying to get some little check box checked off so they could graduate. There were a wide range of skills and abilities to do the work but generally most gave a decent effort as they were smart kids. However there were a few obvious exceptions.
      I saw several folks that would turn in home work that was cleanly written and correct. If graded from basic homework (1) these folks would have gotten an A. However in some cases the exam grades showed an entirely different story. Not just basic math errors that could be due to sloppiness under the pressure of an exam, but basic issues like not being able to use Ohm's Law. How can someone do the advanced topics on homework perfectly but fail miserably on the basics during an exam? Well it's rather obvious - especially when a certain guy was arguing that his course grade (he got a D) should have been higher because his homework was all "A"s. In this case, his girlfriend had all "A"s on the homework and on all the exams - IIRC she had the 2nd or 3rd highest grades in the class. I bet I know how he got good grades on his homework....
      Anyway, there's an example of why exams are needed. It is far to easy for someone to get help when working out of sight. It can be more subtle than straight copying. It can be getting help with even the smallest hurdle, getting an outline of how to solve every problem from a classmate, working in groups on all assignments, etc in ways such that the turned in assignments look good. But in the final analysis the student hasn't really understood or comprehended the material. Having exams ensures that they have developed an understanding of the course material.

      (1) I assigned some small amount of homework to ensure that people had a reason to keep up in class. Generally it was something that I could do in 5-10 minutes so I was hoping it wouldn't take them more than an hour or so - not a bad work load for something outside your major. Obviously for a class in your major, the level of effort and expected comprehension would be higher.

    143. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Inside engineering I am finding I am using a lot of what I learned in college (maybe not so much the entomology or psychology electives). Sure did I have to learn the processes, paperworks, specific rules/regulations? Yes... Did I use what I learned at school to actually engineer the solution we are using? Yes. Though I do see a need for balance between projects and tests.

    144. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My favorite professor in college (Masters degree in math) had the same notion.
      When asked why he did not give in class exams for the Master level courses he replied:
        "I'm teaching you how to be professional mathematicians. Professional math is never done in two and three hours of time at the end of the term."

      He favored 4 or 5 question problem sets given 4 or 5 times through the term.

    145. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by tehcyder · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well. if you think it's tough being a white middle-class male, just try being a white upper-class male with film-star good looks, a trust fund valued in the billions, a brain like Einstein's and a cock like John Holmes's.

      It's a fucking nightmare, honest.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    146. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      That second article is excellent - it's good that the professor has found a way to make a stand without hurting the students; they're stuck with the system, and giving a relatively low grade in a system where high grades are the norm does hurt them, even if it is just the sign of a potentially broken setup.

      The one thing I would wonder about, though, is the comment about comparing grades between universities, not just within a university - as the article says, most Harvard students would easily be getting As at state universities. Should a Harvard C be worth a mediocre university A, or should Harvard continue to give most students As because they are, in fact, doing better than most students in the country?

    147. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "Name a single company that teaches you how to design satellite parts without any knowledge beyond 12th grade and I'll eat my fucking hat." - Or, conversely, name a single college course that teaches you how to design satellite parts without any knowledge beyond 12th grade and I'll eat MY fucking hat. Works both ways. . . . Maybe you could take a moment to design something to fit your giant ego and inflated self worth into so the rest of us don't have to be exposed to it?

    148. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      Ah, I work at a lowly school. We don't have teaching assistants. The professors do all the teaching, all the discussing, and all of the grading.

      I used to have a pretty poor opinion of the big lecture/small discussion group paradigm, because the big lecture was usually led by some hotshot researcher who had better things to do with his time, and the discussions were led by apathetic grad students. (This was at a very highly-regarded public university)

      Eventually, I did a year abroad in the UK, and found their model considerably better. Whereas the department did have an excellent reputation for research, "teaching" was listed first in its mission statement -- and it showed. Specifically, there was never an expectation for undergrads to immediately proceed into a PhD program, which was a huge breath of fresh air, coming from an American Physics program, where one was essentially considered a failure unless they secured a PhD fellowship during his senior year.

      Lectures followed a similar format, but were executed far more gracefully. Instead of being led by a hotshot researcher, they were led by a fucking good lecturer -- not necessarily a leader in their field, but an excellent instructor with a passion for teaching. Unsurprisingly, many of them spent a few years teaching before returning to academia (something that would be considered the kiss of death in an American program; publish or perish). Discussion groups also existed, but were smaller, and led by full-fledged faculty members -- sometimes those "hotshot researchers," sometimes fresh new faculty. The groups were small enough that this distinction didn't matter, and there was never any negative backlash from asking the instructor to repeat a particularly confusing portion of a lecture.

      In hindsight, I wish I'd stayed to finish out my degree. Upon returning to the US, I immediately regretted it.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    149. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Around 30% of the intake dropped out before completing their degree in my year and this was not unusual. Very few people got the lowest grades - most of the people who were going to realised before the final year and didn't bother coming back.

      Trying hard at something you're neither gifted nor particularly interested in is an essential requirement for getting a job. Most employers would be more impressed with someone who at least finished their course and got a low grade, rather than just gave up.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    150. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by radtea · · Score: 1

      The simple fact is that in the short duration of an in-class test you can't give the students substantive problems to work on.

      Any experimental scientist, including people in the social sciences if they're any good, will agree with you. No experimentalist would ever design an experiment that resembled an exam, where students are put into an artificial environment and given one chance to demonstrate their knowledge on a given subject. Neither in-class quizzes nor final exams pass rudimentary tests of good experimental design.

      In grad school I TA'd for a first year lab course and I recall the prof standing by a lab bench with a tape measure on the first day and telling the students, "If I ask you how wide this bench is, and you take a tape measure like this (actually performing the measurement) and measure it and write down the number and hand it in, I will fail you. You never measure anything just once, and you always need to understand the sources of error." As a one-line explication of good experimental technique I thought it was nice and clear.

      Yet that is exactly what we do with students: we measure them once or twice, and pretend that those measurements are related to their knoweledge or performance or abilities. I've been on both sides of this process, and the only thing I hate more than taking exams is giving them, because they are simply lousy experimental technique personified.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    151. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dear Satellite Building Genius:

      What the parent and grandparent posters are talking about are VOCATIONAL SCHOOLS. You want to learn how to build a satellite? Great, go to Satellite Building School. You want to learn to fix computers? Good, go to Computer Fixing School. The idea that we all need degrees from four year institutions where you're forced to take art history in order to be Mr. Computer Man is flawed.

      Don't misunderstand me - there's nothing inherently wrong with a university education, but we need to stop pretending that it's a prerequisite for every job on the planet.

    152. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by bjdevil66 · · Score: 1

      I don't go to Hahvahd, but I have sometimes had professors count big final projects instead of a big final written exam. Sometimes the class content just isn't amenable to written exams.

      That may be true, but should "sometimes" equal 75-80% of the time in undergrad courses (only 259/1137 have final exams)?

      It sounds to me like either 1) Hahvahd is more about collecting tuition and stamping them as "Havhavd Approved" with a sheepskin, 2) more and more professors are too busy doing research to justify their existence on the payroll to bother with giving finals, or 3) both.

    153. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I mean, your art degree doesn't let you do anything useful, how could an engineering degree be any different?

      An art degree lets you do many useful and interesting jobs, the problem is that there aren't enough of them to go round; whereas with engineers it's the opposite.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    154. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Why does an in-class test have to be of short duration? Can't you have a three hour class test (instead of an exam)?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    155. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by radtea · · Score: 1

      Go read the Socratic dialogues. The best method of teaching hasn't changed in several thousand years.

      What, you mean to talk to syncophantic followers who don't question your ridiculous claims? :-D

      While I agree that the role of the teacher is or ought to be interactive and mentoring rather than "regarding course material much like a machine-gunner regards ammunition, to be fired off in the general direction of the enemy as rapidly as possible" I'm not at all convinced that Plato's dialogs are good examples of that, entertaining stories though they be.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    156. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by prograde · · Score: 1

      Harvard graduates 97 percent of its students

      Yep - getting in to Harvard is a challenge. After that, graduating is inevitable.

    157. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by TheLink · · Score: 1

      If Harvard really wants to help those with financial problems they could start by putting more of their lectures on line: http://www.youtube.com/user/harvard?blend=2&ob=4#g/u
      MIT has certainly lots more available: http://www.youtube.com/user/MIT#g/u
      Stanford has some too. And India sure has lots http://www.youtube.com/user/nptelhrd?blend=1&ob=4

      This way those who want to learn can more easily learn, even if they are in some cybercafe in some poor country.

      Those who want to get a degree would probably still have to pay and jump through more hoops. But as we all know, getting a degree is not the same as learning.

      --
    158. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every degree is worthless and the college is an entirely broken system. However, There is a small fraction of people who learn something in spite of the system, and that's why I have to cull 300 resumes to find 3 competent engineers. Guess what, asshat. Most people don't go to college to become an engineer. They go to college because that's step 5 in the welfare program, and they pick engineering because they want a large salary. Most professors have very little experience with engineering, and have spent a large fraction of their careers doing research, which means that every design of theirs has been bespoke and utterly unsuited for production. They're very intelligent, and I'd give my alma matter about a 60% rate for them being effective teachers. However, most of my peers are still incompetent as engineers 10 years later. Yes, these are your patent examiners and technical management now.

    159. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure why you're replying with an amen.

      Are you really agreeing that if the students are not tested it's not Higher Education? And if it's only based on getting projects done, it's "tech school" and not "higher education".

      Because you seem to be coming from a different point of view.

      Perhaps why you don't do well in tests is:

      a) You don't understand the questions correctly.
      b) You don't answer clearly enough.

    160. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Wow, given the content I almost expected it to come from theonion instead of thecrimson.

      --
    161. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      teaching you to perform a task is for tech school. university higher education is about conveying understanding of theory.

    162. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although huge classes are not for the better, they are still better than video representations. Based on my experience, many questions asked in the classroom, benefit all the students (who possible had not thought there was an issue there).

      And I have seen that the interest on the course is often contagious among the students.

    163. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      and i'll tell you why your an idiot... i didn't say any of the things you've said aren't true.

    164. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      as a student, i for one would like to let you know that many of your students are having other students complete their projects/papers/assignments for them.

    165. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      there is a good reason for "making 2 holes" sometimes... when you're doing signal processing, latency is added to the signal with each chip the signal is processed by... if you need to resync the processed signal back with the raw signal later for audio or something else, then you need to add the same amount of delay back into the split signal.

    166. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Try to actually write a large scale software project and say that again. Some of the worst software coding practices I've ever seen came from people with Electrical or Mechanical Engineering backgrounds. One particular piece of code (about 200k lines for a critical project that was the foundation for the entire company's financial future) had a global variable named "temp" that was used in more places than I can possibly count. Other variables like "ax, bx" and other similar variables were sprinkled throughout as if somehow they were doing assembly programming.... but it was C instead. And then for some reason the software stopped working with the entire software engineering team called in to try and fix the problem... as in people with a real computer science education that knew how to develop software in the first place.

      One of the best programmers I ever met was a Biology major. They certainly brought in a fresh perspective and more importantly.... they knew they didn't know a thing about programming so that individual asked a whole lot of questions and read up on the best practices for programming. Rubbing shoulders with CS majors didn't hurt, and essentially they got a CS major "on the job" by doing the work. It is possible, but it takes some discipline and hard work.

    167. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by TheLink · · Score: 1

      > Trying hard at something you're neither gifted nor particularly interested in is an essential requirement for getting a job.
      > Most employers would be more impressed with someone who at least finished their course and got a low grade, rather than just gave up.

      Really?

      Smart employers will realize it is better if that someone finished and did OK or even did very well. Or that person also tried something else and got good grades.

      If you have a habit of persisting but only producing crap results, you'd be more likely to be wasting your time and everyone else's time.

      Either get better at it, or do something that you are better at. Stop wasting time and resources. Otherwise, it just makes people think you're stupid, incompetent and stubborn. Someone who doesn't easily learn from mistakes.

      Being stubbon, competent, and smart has its merits. Stubborn, incompetent and stupid is just bad.

      p.s. no, I'm not a person who thinks that highly of Thomas Edison and his "perspiration" methods.

      --
    168. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by WrongMonkey · · Score: 1
      "yet like 90% of the kids I go to school with are white, middle-class males"

      What college do you go to? Women have been more than half of the college population for a decade and every school that I've seen has a significant number (>10%) of Asians.

    169. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Teancum · · Score: 1

      My problem with the TAs was that those who spoke English (in America) usually were able to find work outside of the University (internships/"real work") and so they didn't need the TA jobs. Instead those went to foreign students who could barely speak the language and certainly didn't have the cultural background to be able to relate to the undergraduates they were serving. In fact, the TA jobs were viewed mostly as a graduate level kind of scholarship and they weren't really expected to do much of anything other than show up to the learning sessions.

      On a rare occasion I found a teaching assistant who cared about what it was they were doing and actually wanted to make a difference. Sometimes even these foreign-born students would learn enough about American culture to be able to relate to their students (aka they "partied" and went to various social events at the expense of their academics).

    170. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Teancum · · Score: 1

      One of the worst professors I ever had was a Physics professor who was so stuck on himself that he was trying to show off his brilliance and intellect instead of actually trying to teach the class.

      You can get people who have learned stuff 20-40 years ago to be able to express that to you in a clear way, but they've got to humble themselves to the point that they are willing to listen, to talk, and to try and understand what it is that the students are struggling with to come up with a different solution to acquiring knowledge.

      What somebody like a professor on the bleeding edge of scientific research can provide is a guide to help know what is important and perhaps not important in order to get to where he is now. I've done that with my own kids (admittedly with their grade school/jr. high school homework) where I've had to point out that some of the homework they are doing now is going to be important in the future when they start dealing with even harder problems. When you've learned a whole lot more, you get to see the larger picture as well and can act as a sort of guide through that knowledge.

      Somebody who just barely learned a concept or have just recently covered the material doesn't necessarily have that kind of perspective and often will lead you to paths that don't necessarily get you to that frontier of knowledge that is necessary. Then again, perhaps that professor of science doesn't want any competition and is deliberately leading you astray while the student TA is just a couple of years ahead of you and doesn't have any axe to grind if you succeed either. It is a two edged sword here.

    171. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      I go to an engineering school. I guess our numbers are still behind the curve.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    172. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Schnitzelface · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You must be trolling. Talk about selection bias. What percentage of students that enter Harvard graduated high school with these same honors you state? Do you honestly, truly think that once these students get there they just stop doing work, sit in their dorms eating pizza, playing WOW and are handed an A? And really, why does it matter? The market will decide, not the transcripts, if these graduates are good enough in the real world.

    173. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by jirka · · Score: 1

      Well, this is a private college. To get further funding from alumni it has to at least pretend to evaluate students. Emphasis on "pretend." Retention rate is 98%, the 2% I am sure quit for personal reasons. This is entirely unreasonable. Even ignoring legacies (students getting in not on merit). Even if they pick the best students, if they did have higher standards than other colleges later on, they should get a lower retention rate.

      Problem with requiring too much of your students is that they might fail, not get a good job and not send you a check every year for the rest of their life. Student is the customer at a private school.

      Note: this is not disparage the education that you can get at Harvard. Probably one of the best. But the emphasis is obviously on making sure that you get a diploma regardless of your performance simply based on the fact that you were admitted.

    174. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My family income was under 100k, and they had us paying somewhere between 40-50%. We asked why they weren't giving me more aid, and their answer was that we owned our house and that we should mortgage it.

      I hope you didn't study accounting, because a house isn't income.

    175. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is there even such a thing as a 'classroom' that can properly accomadate 200 students, and not just be a professor in a fishtank talking to the wall?

      Yep. It's called the Auditorium Maximum and our freshman classes where taught in that classroom with more than 600 people in it. That's right, one professor (or sometimes just an assistant) and over 600 students. This was accompanied by homework assignments every week, which got graded and a final written exam (for which we actually had to use multiple other rooms, because you need more spacing between students in an exam situation).

    176. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      If I was a cynical type of chap I might say it's the older generation pulling up the ladder.

      To anyone whose reaction is, "But that would harm their own children!", I suggest you think about it for a few minutes - especially if you're European.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    177. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      a cock like John Holmes's.

      Riddled with so many sexually transmitted diseases that some of them don't even have names yet?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    178. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by hazah · · Score: 1

      Why is this flamebait? Ideals aside, this would indeed save time and cut the crap out of what's already happening. If anything, it's insightful.

    179. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I went to an Ivy, and I know from my experience, my peers, and students at other schools, that Harvard's grading is particularly inflated. This problem is compounded by a seriously severe sense of entitlement at Harvard. The students there will openly opine 'hey, everyone here is smart, we all deserve A's'

      The comments they make collectively amount to a feeling that, having been admitted* to the almighty school of Harvard, they can and should rest on their laurels the rest of their academic career, as if to say "hey, i already proved i'm smart* once, why do i need to keep working hard?"

      And the school just feeds into this for the reasons posted above ($$).

      *From what I can gather about Harvard in particular, is that the admissions process is particularly concerned with your perceived ability to make connections with movers and shakers in the real world, and less about smarts.

    180. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Case in point: I'm a music major. About half of my classes (taking 13 this semester at 22 credit hours and 2 of the classes don't count toward credits) don't have final exams. Most of them are projects, or my grades are based off of the concerts that I perform in.

    181. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      yeah, this is basically what i said before at ivy league schools... the students and parents treat admission the same as graduation.

    182. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Undoubtedly some Harvard grad who's wasting time on Slashdot while at work.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    183. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The reason for this is that the more students they reject, the better they look.

      FTFY.

      I've seen admissions ratios in a fair few league tables, but don't recall seeing dropout rates.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    184. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      At the risk of stating the bloody obvious: the problem is that with a project - or any other assessed work not performed under supervision - it's quite possible that the person getting the parchment isn't the person who did the work.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    185. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      i can vouch for the truth of this. university is nothing more then elitist snobbery at it's worst

      Yes, they expect stuff like proper capitalization, correct apostrophe usage and the ability to string a coherent train of thought together. The rat bastards!

      You're just a thick twat. Fact. Just get over it and lose that chip on your shoulder. I know some thick twats who accept and admit that they're thick twats, and they're fine folks.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    186. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Talk about performance anxiety -- blow the one test and blow the class. On the other hand, you literally can blow a case with one forgotten question to a key witness

      Retakes. Appeals. Basically the same thing, except for the payment...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    187. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      And to swing the scale the other way, I for one welcome our sharks-with-laser-beams-attached-to-their-frickin'-heads-owning overlords.

    188. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. Why not simplify it further. The student mails a check for $225,000 USD to Harvard and they mail back the diploma of choice. No muss no fuss and everyone is happy.

      Hells bells, all of the U.S. colleges & universities have become diploma mills over the last half century any way. At least Harvard is getting closer to owning up to it.

    189. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      They go to college because that's step 5 in the welfare program, and they pick engineering because they want a large salary.

      I've got somebody called "law" on line 2 ... wants to know (while laughing) if you'll accept the charges...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    190. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      A professor is there because he is an expert in his field and is doing world-class research. This does not necessarily mean that he is a good teacher.

      I've always found it amusing that professeur (fr) and proffesore (It) mean any teacher - even in junior school.

      But in the US don't they call them teachers, even at university?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    191. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by M.+D.+Kristopeit · · Score: 0
      do you mean degree mills, or are you implying colleges can't even reproduce the education required to earn a high school diploma?

      like i said before, harvard won't do the mail in or internet degree because they have class. you have to show up to buy your degree. IVY league.

    192. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Danish_guy · · Score: 1

      Very true, but if you know your students it's quite easy to tell their styles apart.

    193. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One day when you are in a position to effect hiring remember that these Ivy league brats are just spoiled little rich kids who bought their degrees. It will take time but the Ivy League will learn to have some standards other than their lofty names when their graduates get laughed at.

    194. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Kristopeit,+Michael · · Score: 0

      unless they use the same person to do their work all semester long who you've never had as a student...

    195. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > What percentage of students that enter Harvard graduated high school with these same honors

      That's a strange point to bring up. It's old news that high school grades are seriously inflated. (And even before the inflation spiraled into absurdity, the top few percent of any high school class were already doing everything possible to game the system. Very tactical choices of what classes to take and what to not take, what extracurricular stuff looks good on a college application and what doesn't.)

    196. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The whole point of a professor is to INTERACT with the students.

      No, no, no. The whole point of a professor is to pass their knowledge along to the student. First, the professor imparts his knowledge to a large class of students. This is not called a "lecture" for nothing. (My freshman EE class was 300.) Then, the grad students then meet with the class in smaller groups (sections) later in the week to interact with them and test their knowledge of the subject.

    197. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by severoon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except, it's hard to know the difference between a dullard that tries really hard and a lazy person that could have done much better but chose not to. They both appear the same in every way on paper...

      --
      but have you considered the following argument: shut up.
    198. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Nyder · · Score: 1

      It's funny, because if you're a white, middle-class male you're automatically exempt from like 90% of the free money for college, and yet like 90% of the kids I go to school with are white, middle-class males.

      Wait, there's a middle class still?

      --
      Be seeing you...
    199. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      There is always room for collusion between a student's wallet and his professor. Final exams should be mandatory. The exams should really test basic knowledge only, if the assessment is based on a project. Stress can also damage a student's career, if the exam is not at the same level as the project that student had to complete.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    200. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by anagama · · Score: 1

      The law isn't like some permissive instructor who hands out retakes at the first hint of a whine. Unless there is some really good reason for not presenting evidence when it is due, and "I forgot" is definitely not one, there is no do-over. As for an appeal, that would have been pointless because in the situation where "A" and "B" must be true to win, there is no win if one or the other element is absent. One might get a do-over in the situation where, for example, I intentionally withheld key evidence and the other side had no other way to find it out except through me, but when the missing evidence is simply due to a party's own fault, that's it. Game over.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    201. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by anguirus.x · · Score: 1

      It's funny, because if you're a white, middle-class male you're automatically exempt from like 90% of the free money for college, and yet like 90% of the kids I go to school with are white, middle-class males.

      That's because all the money goes to white lower-middle class males like myself. We tend to dress and talk like white middle class males, so it's easy to mistake us for you guys! LOL =P

    202. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They both constitute a second bite at the cherry. it's called "irony", you fat cunt.

    203. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by katanu · · Score: 1

      It's a fcking nightmare, because you are never sure which head to use in a certain situation?

    204. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, in college they're called professors, (even when they're just a TA). I've gotten called professor once by students in a level100 course in which I was a TA(all I did is grade papers, no actual teaching), this is before I even had an undergrad degree. In highschool they're teachers. Something I find amusing is that when I started college I called them teachers still until I got used to using the title of professor, now when I tell stories of my highschool teachers I refer to them as professors, just because my mind basically retroactively overwrote the "teacher" title with "professor".

    205. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You want to learn how to build a satellite? Great, go to Satellite Building School.

      If there was such a thing, it would have to teach most of what's on an engineering course anyway (in which case it would be a specialized version of an engineering degree), or require the engineering degree as a prerequisite (in which case it would effectively be a specialist masters).

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    206. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      "Or, conversely, name a single college course that teaches you how to design satellite parts without any knowledge beyond 12th grade and I'll eat MY fucking hat"

      A single college course? There aren't any. You can't learn this shit in a semester. But I can name several colleges that will teach you over a period of roughly 4 years. MIT, cal tech, Colorado School of Mines, CU Boulder, Rose Hulman. Should I go on?

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    207. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet you can't figure out how to sign up for facebook.

    208. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by Sir_Sri · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It depends a bit on the assignment, and I'm being somewhat glib. We have lots of ways we check for cheating, exams are part of that.

      Generally, in courses where I'm the TA, I know if a student has cheated right away on an assignment. You know them, you know their level of competence, and if everything is inconsistent with that, you know something is fishy. But I don't have the money (ie people time) to police every line of code in every programming project. Even deleting the code and asking them to reproduce just means they figured it out after they were given a solution by someone else. The gap between knowing what to do, and knowing why it works can be pretty big. We're hopefully preparing people to know what to do, but it never quite works as planned.

    209. Re:one step closer to drive thru degrees by AltairDusk · · Score: 1

      The ones who graduated with that much changed their majors (resulting in at least an extra year), it's not very uncommon to do so.

  2. It's ok... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's OK, it's not like they were real exams...they were only McDonald's applications. 100% if you filled it out completely.

    1. Re:It's ok... by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      I think you'll probably still get the job even if you don't fill it out completely. Just don't forget to include your phone number.

  3. Why not? by vux984 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why not ditch finals? The hurdle at these schools is getting in not getting through. Once you are in they pad your grades, and pass everyone anyway.

  4. What a shame by Yvan256 · · Score: 4, Funny

    If only they had 200 more undergraduate-level courses.

    1. Re:What a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Peter: Okay, guys. We're playing Texas Hold 'Em.
      Ted Turner: Are aces high or low?
      Peter: They go both ways.
      Bill Gates: He said, "They go both ways."
      [All laughing]
      Ted Turner: Like a bisexual.
      Michael Eisner: Thank you, Ted. That was the joke.

    2. Re:What a shame by antdude · · Score: 1

      Haha, I thought it said 1337 already at first. :D

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  5. Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer finals. by srothroc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's worth noting that it says "three-hour exams," and nothing else. There are other courses that could have other kinds of finals -- for example, engineering courses with comprehensive final projects or liberal arts courses with final papers/presentations and the like. In some ways, it makes more sense for students to work on a final project that utilizes the skills they're supposed to have learned in real-world situations -- especially for engineers.

  6. yes within 1 year by Phizital1ty · · Score: 0

    a crazy sensation that then sweeps the nation! or not... :(

  7. Missing out by oldhack · · Score: 3, Funny

    Can't say it's good or bad, but these kids will miss out on the cathartic drunken debauchery on the weekend following the finals.

    Kids these days... buncha pussies.

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
  8. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is in general what happens. I was a math major there, and even a couple years ago very few math classes past the freshman level had sit-down final exams. Almost all of them, though, had take-home exams which were a much more thorough test of the students' abilities and took a lot longer than three hours (usually three days or so). I think this makes more sense and is a better measure of understanding. There are issues of cheating of course, but with a well-designed exam I think this problem can be minimized.

  9. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by blueg3 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Right, this is only formal, seated exams. My undergrad classes mostly had formal exams, but none of my grad classes did. They were all take-home exams (except for the experimental class, which had an informal oral exam). Most of them were the cruel 24-hour take-home exam.

  10. Other Finals by BBCWatcher · · Score: 4, Informative

    Harvard has a variety of final course requirements. A lot of courses require final papers which take a lot more than 3 hours to write. (That includes senior theses, which take a very long time to write.) A few require oral presentations, and some require projects. Still others require passing exams during the course itself. What's been going on for years (decades?) is that Harvard would schedule classrooms and staff to support test-taking only to find that professors had other ideas (and often at the "last minute," administratively speaking). Occasionally even the students didn't get the memo, and a few stranglers might show up only to find out there's no exam. All that said, I wish Harvard would provide professors and students with more guidance on assessments. The College should try to enforce some basic standards more effectively.

    1. Re:Other Finals by brian_tanner · · Score: 5, Funny

      and a few stranglers might show up only to find out there's no exam.

      How very disappointing for the stranglers. I'm assuming they were hired to deal with the cheaters?

    2. Re:Other Finals by rwv · · Score: 1

      and a few stranglers might show up only to find out there's no exam.

      How very disappointing for the stranglers. I'm assuming they were hired to deal with the cheaters?

      Writing comprehension must be one of the subjects at Harvard that doesn't require a final exam. =)

    3. Re:Other Finals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they're a live act that Harvard flies in from the UK to sing their upbeat punk-pop classics!

    4. Re:Other Finals by ebuck · · Score: 1

      and a few stranglers might show up only to find out there's no exam.

      How very disappointing for the stranglers. I'm assuming they were hired to deal with the cheaters?

      With their task at hand so removed, it's hard not to get all choked up.

  11. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

    How do you compare two students, if they submit equally good papers, but the first student wrote the paper in 1 hour on the day before, while the second student needed 3 months of editing and lots of help from his friends?

  12. Final exams already ditched, registrar catches up by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Informative

    Registrars are like air traffic control at universities. They keep track of where a class is being held (and make sure they don't double-book a room), who's teaching it, who's attending, what grades the students got...

    When I was in school, as soon as the registrar released their schedule for final exam blocks, I e-mailed the professor to ask if this rumor the registrar was spreading was true. Many wanted to hold their finals earlier than the stated date, with the exception of the math department which wanted the last finals slot and always got it.

    To me, this was critical information, I wanted to be able to tell my school break job when I'd be back in town so they could plan my work. The earlier I knew when the finals were and weren't, the better.

    So, really this is a registrar reacting to a change that has already happened. Final projects have replaced the final exam in many classes, so if a professor wants to hold a memory-based final they need to alert the registrar, as that office's default assumption is changing to if they don't ask for a finals slot, they don't need it.

  13. Bring back the oral exam by antifoidulus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Whats old is new again, they really should bring back the oral exam. Not only does it make for a great name for porn movies, it actually is probably the easiest way to accurately asses the students understanding of the material and prevents cheating(for the most part). Best of all, it doesn't take 3 hours per student.

    1. Re:Bring back the oral exam by l3prador · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Best of all, it doesn't take 3 hours per student.

      But even in a small class of 20, if it takes a half hour per student, that's 10 hours for the professor.

    2. Re:Bring back the oral exam by Lord_of_the_nerf · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure, I think I'd blow it.

    3. Re:Bring back the oral exam by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      Thats what grad students were made for! Unfortunately recently US universities seem intent on admitting as many non-English speaking students as possible, so I'm not even sure you could use TAs to accurately asses students during oral exams....

    4. Re:Bring back the oral exam by scotty.m · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yep.. thats 3 hours concurrently. You could test 200 students in a 3 hour exam.
      Or with a 10 minute oral assessment, it would only take 4 working days.

      An oral assessment would grade presentation ability which is irrelevant to course content. Why make the rain-man do a presentation on differential integrals? He'd fail!

      --
      Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
      [ST8Z6FR57ABE6A8RE9UF]
    5. Re:Bring back the oral exam by ascari · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oral exam? That would really suck. I mean blow. Never mind.

    6. Re:Bring back the oral exam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean "That's", right?

      signed: a non-English speaking student.

    7. Re:Bring back the oral exam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Signed Anonymous Coward? You anonymous coward.

    8. Re:Bring back the oral exam by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately recently US universities seem intent on admitting as many non-English speaking students as possible, so I'm not even sure you could use TAs to accurately asses students during oral exams.

      Too true. I just started gradschool in computer engineering. They admitted 10 new students; I am the only American, while the rest are from China. We have some required first year courses together, and the before-class conversation is all in Chinese. What's worse, is they're starting to come to me for help with spelling and grammar. I'm happy to help them try to learn, but I have a feeling it's going to get out of hand when I get 9 requests to edit 9 different papers.

    9. Re:Bring back the oral exam by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      That's correct, though had this been an oral exam you wouldn't have picked that up :P

      Also judging from your comment, you obviously are an "English-speaking student". You may not be a native-English speaker, but you obviously profess some proficiency in the language. The grad students I was complaining about have almost no proficiency in the language, especially the spoken language. Trying to communicate with them in is an exercise in frustration.

    10. Re:Bring back the oral exam by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      An oral assessment would grade presentation ability which is irrelevant to course content.

      But exceedingly relevant to life. Event academic research cannot exist without the ability to present (grant writing, paper writing, seminars, conferences).

    11. Re:Bring back the oral exam by udippel · · Score: 1

      An oral assessment would grade presentation ability which is irrelevant to course content

      I can understand your argument, if your /.-ID reflects your physical age.
      As someone who went through a program with almost all oral exams, in a time when a 'power point' was still a socket in the wall, delivering 220V, 50Hz, usually, I can confirm that there was nothing about 'presentation skills' in our oral exams. It would be questions by the professors from the first minute onwards, and the students' task was just to answer. And in those days, it wasn't considered politically incorrect to simply cut off excessive sentences from the students, and inject the next question instead.

      I still do it at times with my own students, and find it amazingly simple, and insightful, to gauge the understanding of the student. In finals, including my own, to be frank, once too often questions appear, where the answer can be memorized; where an answer can be 'good' without containing much of knowledge and understanding. Talk to the person, and it takes less than a minute to find out if s(he) is a cheat.

      YMMV

    12. Re:Bring back the oral exam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      QED

    13. Re:Bring back the oral exam by scotty.m · · Score: 1

      Yes you can assess communication, grammar or how quickly they think on their feet under pressure. You can assess charisma and eleqution if you want. But if you want to assess someones understanding of subject matter, a presentation isn't the best approach for a large number of people.

      --
      Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
      [ST8Z6FR57ABE6A8RE9UF]
    14. Re:Bring back the oral exam by williamhb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Whats old is new again, they really should bring back the oral exam. Not only does it make for a great name for porn movies, it actually is probably the easiest way to accurately asses the students understanding of the material and prevents cheating(for the most part). Best of all, it doesn't take 3 hours per student.

      Unless you videorecord them all (and I'm not sure how many examining professors would like to themselves be recorded as they mark every student every year), it's a bit harder to deal with appeals processes. And these days universities do have to have appeals processes.

    15. Re:Bring back the oral exam by Jstlook · · Score: 1

      Honestly, based on my experience I wouldn't worry too much. My guess is you'll only have to edit one or two papers. The honest guy's paper, and the rest of the group.
      Cynical maybe, but as the TA, I've seen a few people not even bother to finish when I submitted those papers to the prof.

      --
      ---jstlook ---For that is the way of Elves, for they say both yes AND no, and mean every word of it. --- J.R.R.T.
    16. Re:Bring back the oral exam by sulfur · · Score: 1

      Both universities I went to required international grad students to pass a spoken English test (typically more difficult to pass than TOEFL) before they were allowed to be TAs. I assume there are similar rules in other schools.

    17. Re:Bring back the oral exam by KingAlanI · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One of my favorite past professors said that he would like to, but he simply doesn't have the time even for a moderately-sized class.
      His exams were atleast really intelligently assembled essay questions though, pressed somewhat for time.

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    18. Re:Bring back the oral exam by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Whats old is new again, they really should bring back the oral exam.

      Fnarr fnarr, you said oral.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    19. Re:Bring back the oral exam by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Both universities I went to required international grad students to pass a spoken English test (typically more difficult to pass than TOEFL) before they were allowed to be TAs. I assume there are similar rules in other schools.

      If the rules exist, they are completely ignored.

  14. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by LostCluster · · Score: 1

    Yep, very few professions require fill-in-the-right-bubble skills outside of schools... so having them actually build or write out plans for how they would build something is a much better test.

  15. Non-unique. by MrCrassic · · Score: 1
    It's common in upper-level classes for professors to give informal exams based on projects, presentations, papers, etc. The structured, proctored and timed three-hour exam referred to here is mostly for the beginning classes, largely because (a) administrative pressures demand it, probably considering the amount of attention they get and, thus, the amount of weight they place in accreditation and outside perception, (b) freshman-level classes usually have an extremely high number of students and (c) they teach the core fundamentals, which can be tested down to a science (no pun intended).

    Examples:
    • A professor of a Black Urban Studies course I took at NYU (great class!) based the entire grade on one 15-page paper.
    • Over 30% of my last undergraduate semester grade was based on a senior design project. Not exactly a typical final exam, though it is one of sorts...
    • One of the most interesting courses I took, a Intro to Theater course (at an engineering school!) made the final exam a play (fun!)
    1. Re:Non-unique. by MrCrassic · · Score: 1

      I forgot to note that final exams are, essentially, somewhat unrealistic given the fact that the "tests" outside of schooling are almost never examinations and usually tend to have much more dire outcomes.

  16. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by rotide · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Easy, one is good at doing work and the other will be their manager. I'll let you figure out who is who.

  17. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by imthesponge · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Don't professors generally assume that you took all the time available to you and didn't procrastinate?

  18. Tests just test how good your memory is not by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Tests just test how good your memory is. Not how to use that info in work place / real life.

    Some certification tests are like that you can learn the test and have little to no idea on how to use that info in the work place.

    1. Re:Tests just test how good your memory is not by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Tests just test how good your memory is. Not how to use that info in work place / real life.

      Some certification tests are like that you can learn the test and have little to no idea on how to use that info in the work place.

      So my tests that had "Decrypt the following block of text" or "Design a ..." or "If you were designing a ..., would you ...? Or ...? Or something else? Why?" were all based on memorization?

  19. Problem-Based Learning by teethdood · · Score: 1

    Harvard and some other schools instituted the so called "Problem-Based Learning" in which instead of the traditional roles of educators spoon-feeding students information in class, the educators would give students a problem for them to do their own research on, then at the end of the week, they would meet in a small group and discuss the problem along with the educator. PBL then doesn't require sitting for final exams etc. The idea is that this method would stimulate independent thinking/research-focused minds. However this method is proving to be a failure in certain professional schools. I will not name names but a certain school in SoCal decided to switch to PBL in their dental program. Instead of getting students to do their own research, these students would just hang out, get a job somewhere, help out at their parents' business, etc. They depended on their fellow classmates to come up with the answers. The end result is that they aren't really prepared for the Board exams. They aren't prepared in substance (studying) AND in the fact that they haven't been exposed to intense sitting exams (the Board exams take 2-3 days). Students need to be forced to go to class every day, get information shoved down their throat, and be grilled and final-tested because sometimes their profession requires the grand-daddy of final exams.

    1. Re:Problem-Based Learning by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      being able to solve a problem doesn't prove to a potential employer that you understand how to solve a problem right, and what makes that solution more right than any other solution. not spoon feeding students until they understand theory is probably contributing to the large number of idiots i have to deal with.

    2. Re:Problem-Based Learning by shriphani · · Score: 1

      Very few undergraduates I know take an active interest in research. At a school like MIT, Harvard or Caltech (throw in the schools take take extremely motivated kids) you can trust the undergraduate to take things seriously. Everywhere else, you are wasting your time and money if you expect the students to take an active interest in learning - kids don't want to take advantage of office hours currently.. to place them in control of finding, accumulating and critiquing their own literature is just wrong and contradicts everything known about human behavior Also did the kids get a refund for the school's experiment? I would sue if a college wasted an entire year of a kid's undergraduate life just because of a hypothesis of a new / untested teaching style.

    3. Re:Problem-Based Learning by teethdood · · Score: 1

      I can only speak for dentistry but I can surmise that medical school (since you have an MD) also need lots of spoon-feeding/rote memorization. In general all the undergraduates who couldn't handle the amount of workload/memorization have already been weeded out. Only when they grasp the basics forced down their throats can they begin to think independently. "Before you can run, you must first learn how to walk." Exams/midterms/finals are designed to gauge the level of comprehension of each student and if they do away with them, what other tools are available to assess each student? How can anyone step in and help those kids who are falling behind before it is too late? The exams are not only to see how each student does, but also for the professors to see if their style/way of teaching is working.

    4. Re:Problem-Based Learning by teethdood · · Score: 1

      This is happening at the graduate/professional level. These students are supposedly the cream of the crop. Still, given so much freedom, these students spend a lot less time studying than students in the traditional classroom setting (how can they study if they don't know where to turn to, at least until the following week). Many more kids who graduated with professional degrees at PBL schools couldn't pass the Board exams for licensure to practice than at traditional schools. They can't practice to pay back debts of some 300K (monthly payments of more than $2500). The Dean was sacked or resigned I'm not sure. At any rate, the school's reputation is shot at least in the eyes of those in the same field. To get back on topic, I'm not sure but I think the reason why Harvard is doing away with finals is because of the same PBL approach they helped theorize.

    5. Re:Problem-Based Learning by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      i've said many times: college is a filter, not a press... and it seems these colleges are removing more and more of the filters.

  20. Great Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Finals week is a fantastic way to destroy a complete semester's worth of hard work.

  21. Have hands to tests as well and don't have fixed a by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Have hands to tests as well and don't have fixed answers when more then 1 way can be the right answers and don't give a 0 for ones that get half of the answer right.

  22. Whatever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not like anybody good ever learned anything at Harvard.

  23. Have hands on to tests as well and don't have fixe by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Have hands on to tests as well and don't have fixed answers when more then 1 way can be the right answers and don't give a 0 for ones that get half of the answer right.

  24. Harvard can pick only the best students by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Harvard graduates something like 96% of its incoming students. MIT graduates something like 94%. The students entering institutions like that already know more than the graduates of lesser schools.

    Whatever Harvard does will be just fine ... for Harvard. My school, where I have 100 students in a class and I get about 5 minutes to evaluate each student, will keep final exams because that's all we have time to do. OK, so I exaggerate a bit but it really does come down to economics. How much time do you have to work with and evaluate each student? If you don't have much time, you have to use exams.

    1. Re:Harvard can pick only the best students by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The students entering institutions like that already know more than the graduates of lesser schools."

      Of course that's not counting students who get in because of being the correct race or just because the school feels "sorry" for them.

    2. Re:Harvard can pick only the best students by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No they don't. I live across the river from Harvard, where I regularly interact with students. Harvard is a good school with a great brand, nothing more, nothing less. If anything, the students at Harvard suffer from a very strong peer norming pressure, where they come to believe they deserve the ridiculous opportunities (without validation) that the Harvard brand affords them. The professional schools (law, business) are the worst in this respect; the graduate programs (ie, Arts & Sciences) are the most likely to produce a human being who produces in proportion to their consumption. I think it is a shame that the school is following the assumption "once you are accepted into Harvard, you are already successful by definition, and you no longer have to perform." Isn't the point of schooling to educate, not to certify? How can education work without performance feedback?

      MIT is a different story. While there are clearly many opportunities and the MIT brand is also powerful, in general, the typical student at MIT is more interested in proving themselves rather than just taking advantage of the brand. Maybe my experience is limited, but by now, n > 100.

      It just irks me that so many people perpetuate the myth that Harvard or MIT is some blessed land of the talented. Disclosure: my undergraduate degree was from a state university; my PhD was Ivy...I speak from experience.

    3. Re:Harvard can pick only the best students by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Harvard graduates something like 96% of its incoming students. MIT graduates something like 94%. The students entering institutions like that already know more than the graduates of lesser schools.

      And perhaps a little because if you claim to only select the best students and also claim to employ only the best professors, it gets a bit embarrassing if those best professors don't get those best students through the course? High prestige universities, and high prestige courses such as law and medicine at lesser universities, generally have very high completion rates (at least according to the statistics I've seen) -- partly due to having good students, but also it seems partly to be due to expectations switching: there becomes a cultural expectation that you must be able to prove a student incompetent in order to fail them, rather than prove a student competent in order to pass them.

    4. Re:Harvard can pick only the best students by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF are you talking about?

    5. Re:Harvard can pick only the best students by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somebody mod this AC up.

      I, too, bopped through a few schools, including a strong tech school and a snooty Ivy. The tech school attracts certain types of crowds that are more narrowly focused, while the Ivies recruits from a more broad spectrum.

      On one hand, because Ivies recruits from a broader spectrum, their strength of education derives a lot more from the competitiveness of their student body, while tech schools (like MIT, CalTech, CMU, GATech, etc.), they drill you (and flunk you) hard no matter the relative strength of the student body.

      You've heard about grade inflation? You don't get that shit from MIT, CalTech, etc.

    6. Re:Harvard can pick only the best students by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      LOL. Hear, hear. At one point I interviewed at a certain white shoe law firm in Boston for a technical advisor position. The behind-the-scenes feedback from a friend already working there was that although the hiring attorneys liked me somewhat better than the other candidate, it was felt that my PhD from a "tech" school simply wasn't prestigious enough, seeing as how the other candidate's PhD was from an Ivy (Dartmouth). Now, Dartmouth is a fine school for many things, but they are not particularly strong in their natural science graduate programs. Oh, and my school? Caltech. Yeah, that's right--Cal-fucking-tech was not prestigious enough.

    7. Re:Harvard can pick only the best students by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This just proves that the graduates of law and econ programs have no brain no matter where they come from...
      but that's not news. It's olds.

    8. Re:Harvard can pick only the best students by Marcika · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Wrong. Tech schools are just as bad or worse as the rest in terms of grade inflation. MIT and Georgia Tech are above the trend (CalTech is not listed).

    9. Re:Harvard can pick only the best students by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      Affirmative action, probably.

      Yes, affirmative action is a racist policy since it takes skin color into consideration. But it's probably necessary to build the kind of world that we'd all want to live in. If you went by test scores alone, you'd end up with one group in power... the one that wrote the test sensitive to their cultural background and upbringing (remember when the SATs tested for a lot of farm and agricultural lingo?).

      So in theory, affirmative action is racist in order to balance out the population of the workforce, so that the diversity of doctors, lawyers, politicians, professors, accountants, government clerks, and yes, even the academics who write the tests, etc. actually sort of reflects the distribution offered by the local community.

      Of course, that means letting in people with lower test scores and skills to meet quotas. But that's the price of trying to achieve fairness and equality, and kind of gives a lot of motivation to educate everyone as well as possible, because someday you may find yourself under the knife of a {insert racial group} surgeon (instead of street thug).

      And yeah, we should feel sorry for holding them down. Perpetuating inequality is the sort of thing that wars and revolutions are started over.

    10. Re:Harvard can pick only the best students by moller · · Score: 1

      That's because Caltech has a notoriously brutal curriculum. Consequently, grades are lower than other schools of that caliber, and Caltech has the lowest freshmen retention rate of any "top tier" school. There was a rumor going around that it was possible to do two years of a physics degree at Caltech, transfer to Harvard as a senior physics major, graduate and be back at Caltech for grad school in physics while your classmates were still undergrads. Supposedly someone did this - although they were probably taking the same classes as their former undergraduate classmates when they returned.

      This was also very evident at the annual job fair. Several companies from the Bay Area that drew a large amount of employees from Stanford wouldn't even talk to anyone that didn't have a 4.0 GPA at Caltech. Other companies that employed a large number of Caltech alums openly admitted to students that they would mentally add a full 1.0 to a Caltech GPA when looking at a student's resume.

      FWIW the vast majority of classes at Caltech use takehome exams. The "weeder" EE course switched to an oral exam when I was there, but that was 11 years ago and I don't know if they still do that.

      Disclaimer: I attended Caltech for undergrad but did not graduate, and my wife has a Ph.D. from Caltech.

    11. Re:Harvard can pick only the best students by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck diversity, fuck proportional representation, and fuck equality. Only the best should be allowed to succeed, and if you're not good enough, you don't deserve to have your hand held.

      Equality is the greatest evil ever concocted by man.

    12. Re:Harvard can pick only the best students by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the law of the jungle. I hear they still use that in some places over in Africa. It sounds like it could lead to an awesome society if it didn't succeed in tearing itself apart from the inside first. You'd probably do great in it!

  25. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by dbIII · · Score: 1

    for example, engineering courses with comprehensive final projects

    So that's maybe four out of around fifty subjects in the course of an engineering degree.
    Has Harvard gone from the top to being one of the worst Universities or is US undergraduate education at the point where all we can expect from graduates is being able to cut and paste from wikipedia?

  26. prove it by CaptainNerdCave · · Score: 1

    [citation needed]

    1. Re:prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well I guess we now know someone who failed out of Harvard :)

    2. Re:prove it by scotty.m · · Score: 1
      --
      Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
      [ST8Z6FR57ABE6A8RE9UF]
    3. Re:prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/about/faq.html

      "Harvard graduates 97 percent of its students, among the very highest graduation rates in the nation."

    4. Re:prove it by vux984 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Harvard University is the poster campus for academic prestige - and for grade inflation, even though some of its top officials have warned about grade creep. About 15 percent of Harvard students got a B-plus or better in 1950, according to one study. In 2007, more than half of all Harvard grades were in the A range. Harvard declined to release more current data or officially comment for this article."

      http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/magazine/articles/2008/10/05/doesnt_anybody_get_a_c_anymore/

      "Plus, tough grading makes a student less likely to get into graduate school, which could make Harvard look bad in college rankings."

      and also from that article this interesting bit:

      "Fewer than 20% of all college students receive grades below a B-minus, according to a study released this week by the American Academy of Arts & Sciences. That hardly seems justified at a time when a third of all college students arrive on campus so unprepared that they need to take at least one remedial course."

      http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2002/02/08/edtwof2.htm

      Or how about a student testimonial:

      "The article reported a record 91% of Harvard University students were awarded honors during the spring graduation. Said one student, Trevor Cox, "I've coasted on far higher grades than I deserve. It's scandalous. You can get very good grades and earn honors, without ever producing quality work."

      http://www.endgradeinflation.org/

    5. Re:prove it by Rasvar · · Score: 1

      No wonder my evaluations for my students were so low for the Freshman level World Geography class I taught this summer. I actually gave out 25% of the grades below a B-. I thought I was actually too easy. Of course, 80% of the students expected an A.

      In graduate school, I have yet to have a final exam except in one class that was a split with an undergrad class. For most Geography classes, I would rather assign a project/paper to have done. Unfortunately, my university requires finals for all undergrad classes. However, the hardest final I ever had was a take home final in a summer class where the finals requirement is not as strict.

      Then again, Geography is also beneath Harvard and Yale to even have a class in. Maybe that explains way George W Bush thought invading Iraq to be a good idea.

    6. Re:prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then again, Geography is also beneath Harvard and Yale to even have a class in. Maybe that explains way George W Bush thought invading Iraq to be a good idea.

      *sigh*

      Stop beating the retarded horse.

    7. Re:prove it by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 5, Funny

      Anyone who tells you there's grade inflation at Harvard is lying. Put the best students from all of the world in a university, where most work their asses off, all of whom have fantastic educations prior to arriving, and these students are going to get good grades. There's not a single student at Harvard who got an A or an A- (they don't give out A+'s) who didn't deserve it. Granted, it's hard to get a C grade, but that's to be expected considering how fucking amazing these students are. Compare a student who has an "A" average from Harvard to a student who has an "A" average from a state school. They are both probably great students, but which one do you think is better? (Achieving a 4.0 from Harvard is almost unheard-of) How about comparing "B" students? Do you think a B student from Harvard is worse than a B student at another institution. I doubt it. And the "remedial course" you're talking about is probably Expos 10. It's not a remedial course, though most students test out of it. There aren't any other courses one can test out of (there may be department-by-department policies), besides a language, but a first-year language course is hardly "remedial". Honestly, I have no idea what that article you quoted is talking about. That student you quoted? Probably very smart but lazy, and can get by without working very hard. Good for him. Maybe he has very high standards for himself. Most Harvard students do. He was also probably bragging, in some convoluted manner. Again, most Harvard students do. Finally, your statistic on honors is out of date. Far fewer students receive honors now. I did, and I'm damned proud of it.

      --
      Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
      Africus aut Europaeus?
    8. Re:prove it by vux984 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Anyone who tells you there's grade inflation at Harvard is lying.

      Because you said so?

      Harvard administrators said they are inflating grades.
      Harvard professors said they are inflating grades.
      Harvard students said their grades were inflated.

      Various studies have demonstrated this to be true.

      Besides, use some common sense: Harvard has been a highly sought after ivy league school for a few generations... are you really arguing that the class of 2007 are really that much more "fucking amazing" than the class of 1997? Yet the class of 2007 has a lot more A students than any class in the 90s.

      There's not a single student at Harvard who got an A or an A- (they don't give out A+'s) who didn't deserve it. Granted, it's hard to get a C grade, but that's to be expected considering how fucking amazing these students are.

      Many of our politicians - congressmen and senators are harvard alums; do they strike you as particularly erudite? Does 'fucking amazing' leap to your mind? Harvard grads trend towards success because they come often from successful families before they ever enrolled, and they often build invaluable social networks while enrolled. The education itself is certainly good quality but its nothing special, and the students aren't really all that 'fucking amazing' either.

    9. Re:prove it by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 5, Funny

      Not because I say so, because of the arguments I laid forth in my reply.

      I wonder what percentage of administrators, professors and students at other universities also speak of grade inflation. Maybe less, maybe more, but I don't see why Harvard is getting singled out. You say "various studies have demonstrated this to be true." What studies?

      I actually think the Harvard classes of late are getting even better. 20-30 years ago, they weren't nearly as competitive as they are now. Where is the proof that the class of 2007 has higher grades than the classes of 1990? What about *in comparison to other schools*? This is really the point that matters, not inflation over time. It's really the exchange rate that counts.

      Finally, careful who you call a Harvard alum. I am speaking only about Harvard College, not HBS or the law school. And yes, most of our congressmen and senators are pretty fucking educated, actually.

      --
      Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
      Africus aut Europaeus?
    10. Re:prove it by DukeLinux · · Score: 1

      ...and you wonder why we hire graduates from India and China? Hello!! You just paid a ton of money ( 'er debt) for absolutely NOTHING.

    11. Re:prove it by Marcika · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not because I say so, because of the arguments I laid forth in my reply.

      I wonder what percentage of administrators, professors and students at other universities also speak of grade inflation. Maybe less, maybe more, but I don't see why Harvard is getting singled out. You say "various studies have demonstrated this to be true." What studies?

      Don't be intellectually lazy. If you just google the term, you might find the Wiki page chock full of references -- for the ADHD crowd, here's a page with lots of easy-to-understand charts

      The conclusion: Grade inflation is massive, even if you try to adjust for purported quality increases by using SAT results. It happened across all private schools (with the notable exception of Princeton, who put in some radical measures to curb it in 2004) as well as most public schools. Harvard is not exceptional.

    12. Re:prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A funny troll?

      FYI: launching into an opinionated diatribe isn't successful argument.

    13. Re:prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By the way, the 'Funny' mods are the 'point and laugh' type of funny. Just so you know.

    14. Re:prove it by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Granted, it's hard to get a C grade...

      And there you prove the point. A "C" grade is supposed to represent the average student in the class, not the average student in the country. Now, I find it acceptable for a "C" grade to be the average of students who have taken the class over a number of years (say 3 or 4). However, if more than half the class gets a "B" or better on a regular basis, something is wrong. Either there is grade inflation or there is a large number of students in the class who should have been in a more difficult class to begin with. If it is a required course and you have that many people gettign high grades, the school should offer the opportunity to test out.
      Harvard's grade distribution should be the same as every other schools and every school should have approximately the same number of "D"s as "B"s.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    15. Re:prove it by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      Wasn't George W Bush a Harvard grad?

    16. Re:prove it by rwv · · Score: 1

      I went to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute for Computer/Systems Engineering. We had (a few, not all) classes where the defined grading schemes were (a) the top 33% of the class gets an A, (b) the middle 33% of the class gets a B, (c) the bottom 33% of the class gets a C, D, or F (as determined by the relative curve of the overall course).

      There was no notion of the basic concept that 90% earns you an A. Actually, I take that back. If more than 33% of the class scored 90% on the course material, they'd get their A's. However, there were some very hard courses and I don't recall whether this actually happened.

      On the other hand, Rensselaer produces engineers who aren't necessarily targeting grad school and the difference between a 2.7 GPA student and a 3.8 GPA student are important to top employers who hire their graduates.

      Maybe the graduate schools that Harvard undergrads end up going to can tolerate the students who would be 2.7 GPA at more rigorous universities, so Harvard has no reason not to inflate their grades up to a 3.8 GPA (and let them graduate with Fake Honors).

    17. Re:prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hah, I bet you don't even have to be fluent in Latin to qualify for entry to Harvard. Wussies.

    18. Re:prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd just like to point out that "fucking educated" != "intelligence". In my mind it's more of a static_cast of "entitlement": usually unsafe and lacking in a reference to reality.

    19. Re:prove it by hiryuu · · Score: 1

      Wasn't George W Bush a Harvard grad?

      I was about to correct that and say he went to Yale, but some quick reading showed me that both are correct - he went to Yale for his undergraduate degree, and then got his MBA at Harvard.

      --
      Karma: Excellent, but still won't get you laid.
    20. Re:prove it by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      Stupefyingly rich and connected doesn't equate to educated it seems. On the surface it seems if you have money, you can just buy a degree to any school. It also sort of proves that there is little connection between education and how far you can go, I mean he was President. For two terms.

    21. Re:prove it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Educated and completely stupid. I think that was his point...

    22. Re:prove it by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, you don't get to call me intellectually lazy when I was asking someone to cite a study. When someone says "studies show..." they might as well be saying nothing.

      --
      Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
      Africus aut Europaeus?
    23. Re:prove it by Marcika · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, you don't get to call me intellectually lazy when I was asking someone to cite a study. When someone says "studies show..." they might as well be saying nothing.

      I'm not sorry. It takes less effort to put "grade inflation" into google than asking someone for citations of common knowledge. Anyone who brags about maybe not having gone to Hogwarts ought to know that.

      (No bad feelings. But don't bullshit me, ivy pretensions or not.)

    24. Re:prove it by vux984 · · Score: 1

      I wonder what percentage of administrators, professors and students at other universities also speak of grade inflation.

      A large percentage.

      Maybe less, maybe more, but I don't see why Harvard is getting singled out.

      I'm not singling Harvard out. The original artical is about Harvard, so my response is directed at Harvard. But I'm not saying they are alone (although they ARE one of the more egregious examples of it.)

      You say "various studies have demonstrated this to be true." What studies?

      Grading in American Colleges and Universities, Rojstaczer & Healy, 2010
      Evaluation and the Academy: Are We doing the Right Thing? Grade Inflation and Letters of Recommendation, Rosovsky & Hartley, 2002

      This in particular you might find interesting:
      http://www.philosophyproject.org/assets/Grade%20Inflation%20-%20Time%20to%20Face%20the%20Facts%20-%20Harvard%202001.pdf
      by Harvey C. Mansfield, Professor of Government, Harvard University.

      First two paragraphs:

      This term I decided to experiment with the grading of my political-philosophy course at Harvard. I am giving each student two grades: one for the registrar and the public record, and the other in private. The official grades will conform with Harvard's inflated distribution, in which one-fourth of all grades given to undergraduates are now A's, and another fourth are A-'s. The private grades, from the course assistants and me, will be less flattering. Those grades will give students a realistic, useful assessment of how well they did and where they stand in relation to others.

      A longtime critic of grade inflation, I have seen my grades dragged gradually higher over the years, while still trailing the rising average. I could not ignore the pressure to meet student expectations that other faculty members have created and maintained, but I did not want just to go along silently. The two-grade device is a way to show my contempt for the present system, yet not punish students who take my course. My intent was to get attention and to provoke some new thinking....

      And yes, most of our congressmen and senators are pretty fucking educated, actually.

      Educated sure. But exceptionally smart? Average and above sure, but no smarter than any other educated professional group. They sure aren't "fucking amazing".

  27. Faddishness? by DesScorp · · Score: 2, Informative

    Coincidentally, I read a piece today comparing the core curricula of Columbia vs. that of Harvard over the years. The gist of the piece was that while Harvard has had some interesting experimentation, they've also been prone to basing their course requirements on esoteric themes that no one outside of academia really sees the point in, and that Columbia, by contrast, has been much more committed to the classical means of teaching and curriculum. In short, the article posits that Columbia is more concerned with the acquisition of knowledge (and hopefully, some wisdom), while Harvard is much more into being a trendsetter and concentrating on the process of learning. Columbia: it's what you learn. Harvard: it's how you learn. Most people have this mental image of Harvard as being a place where you're enveloped in Plato, Milton, and Shakespeare, and apparently, unless you choose to be, that's not true anymore. There's really not a reading list that all students are required to master anymore. If you want to leave all that dusty stuff behind, hey, fine by the profs. Columbia requires all students to study the important books of the western cannon. So if you're looking for a classical Ivy League education, ironically Harvard may be the last place you should go.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    1. Re:Faddishness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *The New Criterion* is a very contentious magazine - they're very, very conservative. Think of their ideas about core curricula in the humanities as thinking that every computer science student should learn not only assembly, C, and formal language theory, but also learn COBOL and FORTRAN, how to replace a vacuum tube, and the protocols for teletype terminals, rather than all that fancy-schmansy object-oriented and functional programming stuff...

    2. Re:Faddishness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a four-degree Columbia grad (bachelors through Ph.D.), let me assure everyone first-hand that we are not required to read any books written by, or concerning, antiquated Western artillery.

    3. Re:Faddishness? by DesScorp · · Score: 1

      *The New Criterion* is a very contentious magazine - they're very, very conservative. Think of their ideas about core curricula in the humanities as thinking that every computer science student should learn not only assembly, C, and formal language theory, but also learn COBOL and FORTRAN, how to replace a vacuum tube, and the protocols for teletype terminals, rather than all that fancy-schmansy object-oriented and functional programming stuff...

      Which might be relevant except that while technology constantly changes, the core literary and philosophical works of a civilization do not. You add to the great works of a civilization, but you don't toss great works away as obsolete. Aristotle is as relevant now as he was in his own time, perhaps more so. COBOL is just a technology that is becoming superseded by other technologies. No one is going to supersede the works of Shakespeare. You're very much comparing apples and oranges here.

      As for the New Criterion being a conservative leaning journal... and?

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  28. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

    Does the three-hour final give bonus points to the guy who finished in an hour instead of three hours?

  29. At berkeley, peers grade you! by __aatirs3925 · · Score: 0

    Most of the classes I've seen at Berkeley have impossible to complete exams where the highest grade might be a 85% at the end of a final. The teachers purposely make it this hard and grade it on a curve and personally I think that there's too much variance but it seems to work since it's one of the better schools out there. In the end, if you fail your final and so do your peers so you can all get a good grade except for the one at the bottom.

  30. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by doctorpangloss · · Score: 0

    As a student here (there), I'll tell you no, there are no bonus points for being efficient.

    Also, to GP, the final projects are much preferred; they're more pleasant, more fun (since they're generally group assignments), survive for a while (particularly good projects)... In every way, the final project is

    I applaud the University's declining final exam administration and change in norms. Final exams are an anachronism and don't belong in research universities.

  31. and this is relevant to Slashot because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    There are small administrative changes made and reported all the time at universities. I know people love gossip about elite institutions and all, but seriously this is a pretty lame story.

  32. I agree - for bright students in Ivy-League by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Yes, mod me down as 'racist'. I don't mind.
    But don't do it with Asians.
    I'm teaching CS in one of the universities there, and everyone loves projects to replace finals. The students copy and paste, cheat, and outsource their projects almost throughout. And when I point this out to my colleagues, sorry, they scold me for failing the students. What to expect from staff that follow Asian copy-cat culture in their own publications, and do so - and this needs to be conceded - without any bad consciousness.

    If the large majority of the students is motivated, willing to learn, eager to learn, curious, inquisitive, independent, I fully agree that exams can usually be done away with. But when you have a troop of llamas who care only about a great CGPA, with minimal effort, and no desire at all to do the learning part, doing away with exams simply doesn't work.
     

    1. Re:I agree - for bright students in Ivy-League by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I just started my first week of gradschool, where 90% of the people in my program, and a large percentage throughout the university are asian. We had to sit through an orientation seminar on plagiarism, which seemed to be directed specifically at international students; there was a large emphasis on cultural differences on IP, and how in America we cite our sources. I suppose if they are brought up in a society where no one owns any ideas, blatantly copying entire works doesn't seem like a wrong thing to do.

    2. Re:I agree - for bright students in Ivy-League by udippel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I suppose if they are brought up in a society where no one owns any ideas, blatantly copying entire works doesn't seem like a wrong thing to do.

      Actually, being a GPL-FOSS-etc. person, I don't agree fully with you; nobody should own an idea. If only, because his/her idea is based on numerous ideas of others, who had all those ideas needed as basis.
      Maybe we can agree on the term owe instead? If one uses an idea, any idea, a phrase, a drawing, that isn't one's very own, one owes it to the originator, to mention one's source(s).

    3. Re:I agree - for bright students in Ivy-League by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not about owning ideas or IP. The problem is students in China, and many other countries are trained to memorize the "correct" answer, and then just more or less repeat it during the exam. It's not so different than many high school "science" programs in the US. The difference is though out of high school it's no longer tolerated, while in China memorizing solutions is still tolerated.

    4. Re:I agree - for bright students in Ivy-League by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you some kind of gnu crusader? Are you incapable of reading words in context?

    5. Re:I agree - for bright students in Ivy-League by rwv · · Score: 1

      We had to sit through an orientation seminar on plagiarism, which seemed to be directed specifically at international students

      I've heard American professors who were attempting to partner with Chinese colleges and American outsourcing firms say that the greatest challenge was that students #1 priority over there is getting the right answer. They have no ethical issues with copying it from their neighbors or pasting it from the Internet. As long as they get the answer (and the answer is right) things are dandy for them.

      The idea of "figuring out the answer on your own" seems to be a Western notion that is related to the drive of capitalism.

      Of course, with China employing increasingly capitalistic business practices, maybe things will be different in a decade.

  33. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by trout007 · · Score: 1

    I have a BS in mechanical engineering. There are some simple problems any ME should be able to do because you will do them for the rest of your career. The ones you should know off the top of your head is how to calculate moments and deflections in simple beams. You should be able to find loads in static structures. You should be able to figure out simple dynamic problems. You should know how to figure out stresses in tension members, beams, and welds. When I interview for new hires these are the problems I give them. They should know these things. It isn't a matter of "Oh I could just look that up in a book". You spend 4 years studying you better know it.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
  34. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

    I'd say that situation is unlikely. I've never seen a paper written in an hour up to par with one that has been written, rewritten, and edited to perfection. Show me a paper you wrote in an hour you feel is perfect, and I'll show you some corrections you need to make. If you think you're an exception, you're a) arrogant, and b) probably not a good writer.

  35. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by JakartaDean · · Score: 1

    It's worth noting that it says "three-hour exams," and nothing else. There are other courses that could have other kinds of finals -- for example, engineering courses with comprehensive final projects or liberal arts courses with final papers/presentations and the like. In some ways, it makes more sense for students to work on a final project that utilizes the skills they're supposed to have learned in real-world situations -- especially for engineers.

    I graduated from a good Engineering program in 1986, and as I recall we had final exams in every subject -- six per semester for four years. The one exception was the senior project, or thesis, where we had to do the work, prepare a final report and defend it to a panel of professors. Class size was well over 30 in the first 1.5 years, dropping to 30 or less after that.

    My eldest child is entering a political science program next week. I've been told all classes will be around 300, and everyone brings laptops to class to take notes. I can't even imagine it. In our classes a professor who didn't accept interruptions was a bad professor. The flip side was that a student who raised too many interruptions was made to feel the error of his* ways.

    * The use of the masculine pronoun is all-too appropriate, sadly for both us and the profession. I hope that at least has changed.

    --
    The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures (Junius)
  36. They got your money,... by GHynson · · Score: 0

    As long as you pay for your 200k dollar degree, They could care less if your a retarded monkey. It's all about the money, nothing else.

    1. Re:They got your money,... by koreaman · · Score: 1

      Did you know that Harvard is a non-profit institution, and also that they lose money on every undergraduate student enrolled?

  37. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And it is taking society in a wonderful direction.

  38. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by mr_mischief · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As someone who has experienced the working world, I can tell you that if you're employed by someone other than yourself there's often no bonus points for efficiency, either. If you get more work done, you get assigned more work or you may actually get some extra free time between projects. In your review after a certain amount of time, you may get a raise or a promotion based in part on your efficiency. Your work defect rate being low within the assigned deadlines is far more important than getting done well ahead of deadlines, though.

    If you're self-employed for contract work, you may get the same benefits for being efficient as the rapid student. If your work passes muster and you can do it faster than some other guy, you get either more free time as free time or more time to spend doing another project. You're still usually under no pressure to do the job substantially faster from the client, although sometimes that does happen because the client failed to plan ahead or their other contractor fell through. That's when you can charge and expedite fee, though. What the client wants is a workable solution within their deadline. If you can deliver early and move on to another client, that's more money, but you might prefer a break between clients sometimes. (Actually, don't deliver too early or they'll think they've overpaid. If your estimate was too long by too big a margin, hold back on delivery a bit but still deliver somewhat early.) You still have to go out and find that next client, though, so the extra time doesn't always become extra money even if you want it that way.

    If you're manufacturing something, the biggest concern in efficiency is in the process. Taking a given amount of time to improve the process is fine. The manufacturer, except in rare situations, would rather you work to deadline to get a bigger efficiency gain in the manufacturing process than to get a small gain in the process well ahead of deadline. If you can easily implement a partial upgrade early and still get a bigger gain at the end of the project without a lot of extra downtime for the two separate implementations, then that might be worthwhile. In no case is a large-scale process owner going to be happy with just a 2% gain designed in two days if they gave you a month of engineering time. They'll want you to spend the rest of the month coming up with further process improvements whether you can implement them separately or not.

    The only real-world situation that comes to mind in which efficiency always brings a direct monetary reward is sales. The faster you can close sales and actually collect on them, the faster you can make money. Even then, some salespeople would rather get the same amount of money in less time (after a point, of course) than more money in the same amount of time.

  39. I'm in ur engineering, by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

    knowin what I am doin.

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  40. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by John+Hasler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes. They spend two hours reviewing their work and so find all the silly errors that those who barely finish in time miss.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  41. Re:Have hands on to tests as well and don't have f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Plagiarism fail. You're supposed to at least change the name on the paper to your own!

  42. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

    You set harder problems.

    --
    You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
  43. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by chthonicdaemon · · Score: 1

    You have the same problem with written exams: how do you compare a student who knows the work intimately but froze in the exams with one who didn't study? Probably the only good things that you can say about written tests is that they are harder less effort to grade and harder to cheat at outright. They are notoriously easy to game by working old papers and such and present a totally unrealistic situation for most disciplines, with the added stress of ticking timer. Give me a good project and oral examination any day for quality assessment.

    --
    Languages aren't inherently fast -- implementations are efficient
  44. I'm sure my experience mirrors others by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For my BA: The first 2 years years worth of classes were almost all test based, with a class or two that had essays or some other sort of project.

    My last 2 years was the opposite. All classes needed at least 15 pages total of typed essays with a few the required much more.

    In grad school, all none lab based classes required at least 40 pages for work turned in for the semester and a few classes that required much much more. One class I turned in 120 pages of research notes. In another, I typed up a 16 page mock grant request. Single spaced, 10 point font. Not counting citations and the bibliography. On a whim, i convert it to a 12 font, double spaced paper and it came out to a little less then 60 pages. This was addition to the other work assign in that class. The kicker was that the class was worth only 1 credit and was required in my field of study. I earned an A- for that class.

    My point? The further you go in academia, the more important essay writing becomes. Its better to ween students off multiple choice and short answer questions early on. Leave that stuff for high school.

  45. finals are to be replaced by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

    With writing large checks to the endowment. Showed up to class? That should be worth 20%. Actually answered questions and participated? another 20%.

  46. my university by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

    Physics: exams were belled to ~67% for each course. Typically the actual marks on the exam where below that (yeah tough). You needed a 65% average to remain in the program so ... every year the class shrank by 50%. Started with around 100, ended with less than 20. Good stuff.

  47. Depends what "Asians" we are talking about by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · · Score: 1

    People from China are usually hard work and really picky about small things. I work on a class project with a couple of Chinese people and I learn a lot of things.

    People from India just know how to copy and paste, fake resumes, and scratch their feet on their job. You will never see a single Indian work for their paycheck. All they want is to show up and get the check. Having class projects with Indians was the worst experience I ever had.

    1. Re:Depends what "Asians" we are talking about by zarzu · · Score: 1

      I am sorry you had those experiences but you are generalizing a bit too much here. I am finishing up my masters in computer science right now and have also had very bad experiences with Indians. I've done projects where half our group was Indian and not one of them did anything. Often we didn't even get an answer to e-mails and then later very odd ones about a status check a week before the turn in. One year later i was in another group with an Indian (this time a girl, the others were all guys) and it was nothing at all like before. We were all working hard for it and if anything she did more than i did. That semester-long project was fun, we learned quite a bit and the group interaction was great. I've also been teamed up with Chinese people and they didn't stick out at all. They weren't lazy and they weren't superman, they were just like everybody else. The only issue i consistently had so far with people from South Asia is the smell of their meals (their spice mix i guess). I just can't stand it, especially in the morning (why do you cook at 9 am, why?). But hey, that's my problem.

    2. Re:Depends what "Asians" we are talking about by theazreal · · Score: 1

      I'm also going to disagree here. I'm a teacher at an international school, and my Indian coworker is eloquent, creative, and extremely, extremely hardworking. She puts the rest of us to shame.

  48. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by noidentity · · Score: 1

    I think this makes more sense and is a better measure of understanding. There are issues of cheating of course, but with a well-designed exam I think this problem can be minimized.

    Why would you care whether a student cheats himself out of an accurate measure of his understanding? The purpose is presumably feedback so he can improve his understanding where it's lacking, before he moves on in his studies.

  49. Lectures not needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In my college (Helsinki University of Technology), barely anybody attended lectures. A 500-page book can teach a topic much more clearly than most professors. Seminars you had to attend to but even there it was the reading material that contained all the information.

    I was very happy with my school and felt like I was learning very efficiently. The professors had done a great job selecting the course books.

  50. I was saved from that, thankfully by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

    thankfully, RIT does not make you put up with this. Worst I ever had was a few dozen, and I've had a lot of much smaller groups.

    The Rochester Institute of Tuition / Southern Henrietta Institute of Technology at least does not abuse class sizes and TA; in the few classes where TAs were invovled, they were a backup to most of the work being done by the regular prof

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    1. Re:I was saved from that, thankfully by ffsnjb · · Score: 1

      Agreed. In 4 years, I had 1 class with a TA (4002-210, Programming with Classes). The professor taught the lectures and coached the projects, but the TA covered the labs.

      Now that class isn't even required; it doesn't look like current MIS students are required to have any real IT background. One more degree that's been watered down since the COB name change.

      -- MIS '02

      --
      "Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear?" - Bad Religion
    2. Re:I was saved from that, thankfully by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      I'm only a minor in MIS, so I can't say anything about that (doing the minor certainly seemed smarter than taking random electives this fall, my last quarter)

      For me, the one class with a TA was Data Analysis II; that was in a computer lab with a few dozen people [for the uninitiated, it needed a computer lab because it's a statistics class that does a lot of work with Minitab]

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  51. Western cannon? Rommel included? by Zero+return · · Score: 1

    "Columbia requires all students to study the important books of the western cannon. "

    Do they include Rommel's "Gefechts-Aufgaben für Zug und Kompanie : Ein Handbuch für den Offizierunterricht" (Combat tasks for platoon and company: A manual for the officer instruction)?

    I know it's not cannon-centred, but surely such a classic must have been on the list somewhere?

    And what about his "Infanterie greift an" (Infantry Attacks)?

  52. Re:Have hands on to tests as well and don't have f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not much better

  53. Longevity by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

    Aristotle is as relevant now as he was in his own time, perhaps more so.

    Indeed, that the concepts are general and powerful enough to still be applicable thousands of years later is a quality indicator right there. I'm particularly fond of his virtuous mean concept myself.

    Music has a somewhat similar factor on the timescale of a few centuries (Classical a la Bach et al) or a few decades (classic popular music such as The Beatles).

    Computing accelerates this principle to a couple of decades

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  54. 3 most I had by kurtis25 · · Score: 1

    The most actual final exams I had in college for a semester was 3, that was freshman year when I had mostly Gen Ed classes. Most of my exams were papers and projects due on or before exam day. I had a variety of teacher interviews (oral quizzes / discussions), a few exam day group projects, presentations (those were boring exams, 3 hours of listening to others), a large group discussion / debate. As a student most of these were better judges of my working knowledge of material tests, multiple choice especially, only show what you know they don't demonstrate your ability to use that knowledge. In my opening that renders them useless in many classes such as counseling, public speaking, etc.

  55. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because the credential is the valuable thing, and often the student doesn't care about the knowledge. I took plenty of classes in college (to fulfill "distributional" requirements) that I didn't care about. I just wanted an easy A.

  56. Re: Ur Accepted by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    Harvard gives you financial AIDS for a Sumer course.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  57. You Get What You Pay For. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In this case, a Harvard degree + 4 years of partying, paid for in full by Daddy Moneybags.

    Harvard students know which side their bread is buttered on (with jam, please).

  58. Harvard is going down hill anyway. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    Almost all the ivies are going downhill. If you look at their published statistics about SAT scores of the admitted students, the mid-half range is 1580-1370. That is 25% had scores better than 1580, 75% had better than 1370 and 25% had scores worse than 1370. You could say the SAT scores do not test the students very well. And I will agree with you. SAT is a very low bar to clear. I have looked at the IIT entrance examn questions and that of GRE, SAT and GMAT. I would place the Indian Institute of Technology entrance examn at about 10 times more difficult than SAT or GRE. If one-quarter of Harvard student body is made up of people who have scored 690+670 or less, it shows it is not taking in the best students. Their admission process emphasizes "leadership" so much, that it is churning out people who are the "take-charge" personalities, who might not really be capable of doing well once they have taken charge. No wonder these guys invented CDS and CDOs and other derivatives that they themselves could not understand.

    As long as the top journalists, captains of the industry and the top bureaucrats are all coming from the same pool, you would not see the rot brought about their group think.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  59. Depends on the class what you do by edremy · · Score: 1

    When I teach Chem101, I typically do have a traditional final. Intro science courses lend themselves to it- the problems are usually short and don't require research or presentation skills, and there are a lot of students. For other sorts of courses, there are so many better ways to do a comprehensive evaluation- in my class this semester that's a ~12 page paper, poster session and half an hour of oral presentation and defense of their topic in class. They'll do a ton more work on that than they will studying for some 3 hour short essay final.

    --
    "Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
  60. McDegree by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Nice. Sounds like I just buy a degree and get a tax deductible receipt. Now for a limited time it includes a toy.

    Seriously though, I have had courses that had no "final". Usually had to do with working on one large project or thesis. However even at the end of those there would be a "defense" or "presentation" you were also marked on. Mind you they were not worth 40-60% like many finals more like 5-15%, but still there was some sort of evaluation other than just on the work done previously. Also I would have to say of all my classes I have ever taken at the University level, say of 40 total courses, maybe 3-4 were like that. Of those all of them were at the end of my degree (year 4/5).

    To have 486 of 500 without finals just sounds retarded to me.

  61. Not News by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    For Most Colleges the Comprehensive Final Exam is optional. Most colleges give several exams during the year and the then a comprehensive final. So by the time you take the final, you've already been tested on the material. So the final doesn't serve much of a purpose. Most professors will give a final as an option and allow you to swap out that test score, for a lesser test score.

    The title is misleading. This is a non issue.

  62. scaling grades by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I did not go to Harvard, I went to UBC and got a degree in Electrical Engineering. Each of my classes needed to match an approximate bell curve for grades, my first year chemistry professor said as much. It was expected that only the top 20% would get an A-/A/A+, with the A+ only being achieved by less than the top 5% of the class. It does present an interesting problem, however, because to enroll in the engineering program at UBC when I did, an A average from high school was required, which was significantly higher then entrance averages had been 30 years prior, and there were 5 times as many applicants as compared to 30 years prior. What suprised me, or I suppose what I didn't expect, is that despite students having high grades, very few of them understood the material and were more prone to memorization. Now that I've been in the work world for a number of years I know this isn't just a symptom of UBC, but a problem at all universities. Grades don't accurately reflect a students understanding of the material, or more importantly, their ability to learn new material and apply it in unique ways.

    Maybe competition at Harvard is more fierce, but the competition is to gain the highest grades, not produce the most novel new widget, or to glean a deeper understanding of the subject, or more importantly explore the subject in new and exciting ways. As a hiring manager I'm now weary of students from big schools with perfect GPA's. Some of those students are brilliant, and some of them have learned how to game the system really well, but most of them are missing the most important things: passion for the subject, and creativity.

    So when grades are no longer a useful metric for industry, and are likely of little value to choosing the best post graduate students, what purpose do they serve. And why should we care if they're inflated...

           

  63. Fewer finals doesn't necessarily mean fewer exams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OK, former art history Assistant Instructor here, 90-person intro lecture courses. (And whoever said they got a $50K stipend, I wish! We got $5K per course, at one course per semester, no stipend.) Typically, in my department, instead of a three-hour comprehensive (usually in addition to a one-hour mid-term) we gave three one-hour in-class exams, the last of which fell on the last day of class. Note that finals period was scheduled for a week later. In addition, there were 10-minute quizzes every two weeks, a 5-page essay assignment, and another assignment requiring you to go to the art museum and answer questions about various objects.

    Part of the reason for not giving a comprehensive final was instructor fatigue, and the fact that both the instructor and the grader frequently had plans involving foreign travel that began before the finals period was over. But the biggie. I've decided, was simply getting together enough slides (images, these days) and questions about them, bearing in mind that you didn't want simply to recycle earlier material.

  64. Value of a Final Exam by Convector · · Score: 1

    I used to have a dim view of final exams. I didn't like the fact that a large fraction (up to 70% depending on the class) of the grade came down to the performance on a single day, while homework assignments, on which I spent much more time, counted for so little. Now that I've taught classes myself, I always give a final exam, because that's the only work I can be absolutely sure that the students actually did themselves. I make it a relatively small fraction of the total grade (say 25%), with a provision that you must pass the final to pass the class (though I've never actually encountered a situation in which this had to be enforced). In this way, I can be sure that the students leave with at least a certain level of comprehension, while the grades are more heavily weighted toward the more work-intensive assignments. Obviously this won't work for everyone. My experience has been teaching various undergrad level astronomy / planetary science classes. And at state universities, not at Harvard. YMMV.

  65. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by GooberToo · · Score: 1

    Don't professors generally assume that you took all the time available to you and didn't procrastinate?

    Likely explains why they are a professor and not actually working in the real world.

  66. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by shiftless · · Score: 1

    Because when he leaves school with that degree, he's representing the university. If said university continually turns out dumb asses, its reputation will suffer. Lower reputation leads to less funding, less able to attract top professors, research dollars, etc. It's important for a university to take steps to ensure those who graduate from its halls are as educated as they're supposed to be.

  67. not a good idea by KernelMuncher · · Score: 1

    I can't see how dropping finals is a good idea in academia. Sure you'll have occasional classes where large projects are submitted in the place of finals. But for the vast majority of classes, (especially lectures) finals serve a very useful purpose. They force students to reflect on all components of the class and to see how they fit together. And obviously one can't do that until the end of the course. I remember many times during my undergraduate years learning a great deal in preparation for the final exam. Not so much specific details but in recognizing "the big picture" of the course. By eliminating finals, Harvard is robbing its students of this important process (though I'm sure the students are thrilled at having to do less work).

  68. Market system for students by catchblue22 · · Score: 1

    I have always thought that when schools compete for students in a free market, the market will supply what the consumer demands: high grades for the least amount of effort.

    I know it is more complicated than this, and I know that university prestige is an important characteristic in its "value", but the more I look at the school system today, the more I am convinced that education is being increasingly seen as an economic good, something that has value only in its potential to increase future income. The value of an education to intellectually and spiritually enrich a person's life, and by connection the lives of all citizens is I believe being neglected. I believe that our education is increasingly being plagued by something called "credentialism", where the credential, the piece of paper is valued more than the knowledge and wisdom it is supposed to represent. I believe that this will result in the hollowing out of our educational system resulting eventually in social and economic decay.

    --
    This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
  69. Harvard School of Socialist Theology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Harvard has simply returned to its roots as a school primarily concerned with teaching theology. They have simply traded the old boring Christian theology for Marxist socialism (all the benefits of a priesthood with no pesky God looking over your shoulder!). People go to Harvard for Grievance Studies, Social Management of the Proletariat, etc - and in these fields, like any other seminary, your "achievement" is measured by orthodoxy and commitment to conversion/conquest of infidels. Final written exams are as unnecessary, and even undesirable, as traits like critical analysis or independent thinking. To the extent that Harvard is concerned at all with boring subjects like science or engineering, it is strictly to train right-thinking Managers, who will control these dangerous but sometimes necessary proles, and ensure that technology is always subordinated to the supreme needs of the Socialist elite.

  70. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by cervo · · Score: 1

    I don't think i could handle that. I mean assuming 5 classes, that is 15 days of work. Usually final exams all occur at the same time (two weeks at the end of the semester). So 3 hours per class comes out to 15 hours of exams. And generally the exams can be finished early as long as you studied enough with some time to double check. I think if I only have two weeks to do exams for 5 classes that take 3 days each that I would fail out of college.

    Anyway in many math classes i can see exams (in math based computer science courses as well). But many other types of courses would benefit from a final paper/project. Ie for information retrieval build a mini search engine. For data mining, data mine some stuff... For operating systems, create a kernel module for linux which involves using semaphores, the file system, etc... And for a history/literature class a paper may work best

  71. Comparison vs. Intake by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    Cambridge (and presumably Oxford) suffer from the same type of comparison. However if you compare their 1st class degree fraction with the A level grades (when those meant something) of their intake they have a far lower rate of 1st class degrees than other UK universities. The result was that they ended up being criticised for both having too high and too low a number of 1st class degrees at the same time! I think the principle they employed was that if they could here both sets of complaints with equal volume they were probably about right.

    So if 97% of students with 3A's at A-level (or whatever you American's use) when they enter university graduate nationally and Harvard only takes students with 3A's then there is no problem despite the very high graduation rate.

  72. Re:Fewer exams doesn't necessarily mean fewer fina by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    Don't professors generally assume that you took all the time available to you and didn't procrastinate?

    No, because we were once undergraduate students ourselves!

  73. Inmates running the Asylum by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    Also, to GP, the final projects are much preferred; they're more pleasant, more fun...

    The question you should be asking is are they better at assessing a student's knowledge of the course material than a final exam? It's great to try and make learning as fun and as pleasant as possible but that is a secondary concern to the learning itself (although the two are not entirely independent). Would you rather go to a doctor with a great bedside manner who was barely competent vs. one who might not be friendly but really knew their medicine?

    I applaud the University's declining final exam administration and change in norms.

    Applauding change for its own sake is extremely unwise. I find it extremely suspect that nowhere in the article do I see any argument that finals are being dropped to improve the student's education, only that they are being dropped because they are unpopular....which suggests that perhaps the inmates are starting to run the asylum.