Biometric IDs For Every Indian Citizen

wiedzmin writes "This month, officials from the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI), armed with fingerprinting machines, iris scanners and cameras hooked to laptops, will fan out across the towns and villages of southern Andhra Pradesh state in the first phase of the project whose aim is to give every Indian a lifelong Unique ID (UID) number for 'anytime, anywhere' biometric authentication. While enrolling with the UIDAI may be voluntary, other agencies and service providers might require a UID number in order to transact business. Usha Ramanathan, a prominent legal expert who is attached to the Center for the Study of Developing Societies in the national capital, said that, 'taken to its logical limit, the UID project will make it impossible, in a couple of years, for an ordinary citizen to undertake a simple task such as traveling within the country without a UID number.' Next step, tying that UID number and biometric information to to their RIM BlackBerry PIN number."

Comments

Social security number

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what it basically is in other countries. What is the news here? That India only started the practice now?

Re:Social security number

[morari]

The difference seems to be that this number is tied to a fingerprint, iris scan, and facial photograph. That's a lot scarier than my social security number currently is.

Re:Social security number

[bsharp8256]

Having a Social Security number doesn't prevent me from traveling anywhere within the United States, and it isn't tied to my phone number. I can also buy things without giving that number to the clerk, things the TFS hints at in the future.

Re:Social security number

[mrsteveman1]

But there are still enough things that depend on the SS number, and those things are the real reason SS isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Re:Social security number

[cosm]

The difference seems to be that this number is tied to a fingerprint, iris scan, and facial photograph. That's a lot scarier than my social security number currently is.

A) Not trolling. Mods, get your shit together. This is trolling (NSFW).

B) Reply is correct in that, yes, a difference exist; the country is requiring biometric information for unique identification. Although some could argue picture, birth cert. etc for a SSN card are similar, this is one step further. The summary (FTA) makes the point that if this UID become a ubiquitous requirement, well, your biometric identity will be stored by the government. This could be a good thing. It could be bad. Who knows. I do know that I do now trust American authorities with my biometric identity; we all know how tight their data retention and security policies are.

With that said, coming to a country near you. Minority Report!

Re:Social security number

[Darkness404]

Such as? Other than getting a job and getting into college, there isn't too much that need your SSN, and those that do, really -don't- need it.

Re:Social security number

[T Murphy]

Except in India I doubt they could get a SSN system to work- with biometric identification no one needs to memorize numbers or keep them written down somewhere (or be able to write for that matter). You also have an easier time being sure someone is who they say they are (compared to how a lot of places in America take mother's maiden name plus SSN, which nowhere near secure or reliable). Yes, there are a lot of bad things that can be tied to such a biometric system, but having a functioning equivalent to a SSN system would be a big enough benefit it is misguided at best to blindly reject this system.

Keep in mind, this system in itself isn't necessarily evil, but it allows a lot of bad stuff to be implemented. You can have this system yet block any government encroachment on privacy (or repeal the privacy problems after it after it becomes a hot-button issue). However unlikely that separation may be, you have to consider that chance compared to the chance of getting a less-intrusive system to work at a similar level of reliability. There may be some such system (and I welcome it), but some people will come up with some wild idea and never put it in perspective.

Re:Social security number

[Sponge Bath]

Mods, get your shit together.

This looks like an innocent fuck up. Mods are human and the occasional human might be distracted by chaos in the world, relationship problems, and a quart of tequila. So say sweet dreams to this fellow now resting an unconscious head on a keyboard collecting drool.

Re:Social security number

[Mad Merlin]

Not in Canada, there's strict laws about who can ask for a SIN (our SSN). Basically, only your employer and the tax man, as it's only used for tax purposes. I couldn't even tell you what mine is, because I don't carry the card for it, and nobody ever asks for it.

Re:Social security number

[blackraven14250]

I post to undo my bad mods (and even sacrifice my 14 points already-used). Just sayin'.

Re:Social security number

[blackraven14250]

Exactly. The places that "need" it tend to use it as an easy, unique ID number that everyone already has memorized. For example, colleges use it so you can get help to get a new ID card without memorizing your ID number. Why memorize 12 different numbers for different places (which may change frequently), instead of just the single SSN?

Re:Social security number

[painehope]

At least this is happening in India, not in a country that actually matters globally. I feel sorry for the poor bastards that have to deal with it, but if they're not willing to fight for their freedom, then this is what they'll get. At least in the U.S. we've had our experience with SSNs and the more intelligent members of our population (the ones that aren't out to dominate others - that caveat has to be added, since there's plenty of intelligent people who have no respect for freedom, responsibility, or accountability) should, mostly, be able to understand why a program like this is a very, very bad idea for those of us who value our freedom. SSNs are bad enough as-is - a government program that has become a tool of the private business sector as well, tracking every significant purchase or decision a man makes in his life. I'll undoubtedly be haunted the rest of my life by the problems I had when I was married, despite the fact that I made the best decisions that I could at the time (some of which were forced by the economy, some by personal circumstances, some by business matters gone awry)..

Actually, what bothers me the most about identification systems like this is the invasion of one's privacy. You will never have a chance to start over after losing everything, any person at all may be tracked by government agencies much easier, et al. It makes evil deeds on the behalf of so-called "authorities" (be they governing bodies, businesses, credit tracking agencies, or what-have-you) much easier to accomplish, while offering nothing in return to the citizens subjected to such measures.

Re:Social security number

[painehope]

Try dealing with insurance companies, buying a house, even getting a simple loan on a used car that you'll pay off in 6 months. Things like that are interconnected due to your SSN being used to track you and your "credit score" (an arbitrary number that isn't affected much by any good credit actions, or payment of past debts, but is heavily penalized for the slightest failure to pay anything; I've literally had a home loan turned down because I didn't pay off the last 5 dollars on a loan for a laptop due to a billing error). While this state of affairs may or may not be the desired result of the decision to assign SSNs to citizens, it still causes more harm than good. Anyone who gets ahold of your SSN can damage you in many ways. For example, I recently went to the ER at my local hospital. I got into an argument with the head nurse about whether or not I could go outside and smoke a cigarette and wait for the pain medication to take effect before they (with my assistance, since I don't permit anyone to work on an injury that I can do myself) cleaned and dressed the gunshot wound. So instead of getting treatment, I was told that I was "discharged" upon my return from my cigarette break.

And yet they'll be hounding me for money for services rendered, despite the fact that they did nothing except look at the wound, go "yep, you've been shot, the bullet exited your body, we need to give you some pain medicine and dress that wound" (since I'd already stopped the bleeding and all that before I got to the ER). They'll try to bill my insurance company and try to bill me, despite the fact that they did nothing other than provide me with a room for an hour. If they didn't have my SSN, they would have a much harder time doing that, since my name is relatively common, I didn't give them my correct address, and I can tell my insurance company to deny the claim.

Re:Social security number

[ImNotAtWork]

Forgive my ignorance but how do they do a credit check on you for a loan? Just name, employer and address?

Re:Social security number

[unwastaken]

It's not tied to your phone number, unless you signed a cell phone contract. Then they probably asked you for it.

Given, YOU may not have signed a cell phone contract, but a majority of people have these days.

Re:Social security number

[maxwell demon]

Actually, before Slashdot going Ajax, a moderation would only happen after you pressed the moderate button. That way, if you happened to mis-click on moderation, you could immediately correct it. Nowadays your moderation goes life immediately. No chance to correct your mistake (except for the "nuclear" post-to-undo option).

Re:Social security number

[BangaIorean]

Basically BG is classic "database nation" in the way UK and USA geeks keep scaremongering about. And you know what - my privacy there is infringed LESS than in the UK or USA. Much LESS.

yeah, all this scaremongering is silly. All it needs is proper implementation and security.

Also, it is India we are talking about. Does anyone around here believe that a database of this size written in India will work?

If you take your head outta your ass you'll see that most large databases in the world today, are indeed implemented by Indians. You see larger number of crap Indian techies because there are soooo many Indian techies in total.

Re:Social security number

[vegiVamp]

I think the idea is the same in the US, but it simply got used by everyone as an easy UID anyway.

Re:Social security number

[AGMW]

... You also have an easier time being sure someone is who they say they are ...

The problem, as I see it, is that people are led to believe that such a biometric system is infallible and therefore unquestioningly accept such proffered 'ID' as secure. Given that such biometric IDs simply aren't infallible this means that those who wish to offer a false identify can do so more readily because no one questions the biometrics. The other side of the coin is that if people always do question (ie mistrust) the Biometrics (as indeed they should!) then they are no better than the old system.

Simply put, Biometrics aren't the answer ... now what was the question again?

Re:Social security number

[AGMW]

All it needs is proper implementation and security.

OK, now I've worked in 'Computing' for 30 years or so and I know the only way to guarantee that a computer system is 100% secure is to not have it connected to anything else and for it to be stored in a sealed room. This somewhat degrades the usefulness of the system for real-world applications.

In all areas of 'Security' you have to be successful at maintaining the security 100% of the time, whereas those who feel the need to breach your security only have to do so once, and they often have a really powerful inclination to do so. Indeed, it could be argued that the more successful the security is, the greater the value of breaking it because if such an ID system is perceived as 'bullet proof' and you are the only person to break in then you can sell fake or cloned ID's that will NEVER be questioned.

... and all that before you even consider whether or not you feel you can trust your current government, and all future governments, to not abuse their position.

Re:Social security number

[BangaIorean]

Yes, of course you're right about that - no IT guy worth his salt will guarantee anything in terms of security. However what I've heard from a guy who is associated in some way with this project is that they are not going to have a single database that stores all the information. The idea is to have multiple databases, each having a subset of data. This data partitioning will be done at a record (row) level , so that access to one single database does not provide a hacker with all information about an individual. And of course In addition to this there won't be a single DB with data for all citizens - there will be several different ones.

The biometric information is totally distinct from these databases, and will be placed under athe control of a different Government department from the one that handles the rest of the data. And I believe that even the rest of the data will be split across various Government departments.

And the data in the database itself will most probably be encrypted too. And of course, each of these databases will be massively replicated for fault tolerance and redundancy. And needless to say, none of these machines will be connected to the internet! This project is being headed by the ex-CEO and founder of Infosys, Nandan Nilekani - the project is in pretty good hands.

At the end of the day, we need to weigh the pros and cons of the issue keeping in mind the conditions and environment in India. Fear of security breaches cannot be a reason to stop a project like this which has so many benefits. I, for one, welcome this.

Re:Social security number

[Anonymous Coward]

....I feel sorry for the poor bastards that have to deal with it, but if they're not willing to fight for their freedom, then this is what they'll get...

Sigh. The trouble here is that the vast majority (the uneducated, illiterate poor) are at the beck and call of the politicians they are supposed to order around. Feed them and throw around some money and clothes during elections and festivals, and bam! You're a member of parliament.
People don't (or can't) think big enough to realize the sort of problems a move like this will enable, and those that can (and do) are in too much of a minority to matter.
Politicians don't give a rat's arse about the middle classes and the educated. They have their vote banks rooted firmly in the poor, and their money flowing in from the rich (think industrialists).

Re:Social security number

[moranar]

India doesn't matter globally? Try googling for the meaning of BRIC.

Re:Social security number

[moranar]

I think the AC meant that in other countries it's just the same. Argentina and Chile, just to give examples I'm acquainted with, require photographic ID and fingerprints for many things. In Argentina, you have to give your ID number to travel to other regions, in Chile, a quick fingerprint is used to legalize contracts. Neither country has yet descended into orwellian conditions because of this (we have descended into orwellian conditions for many other reasons. You could point out that it's all part of a whole.)

Re:Social security number

[horatiocain]

Hahahahaha, wait - you got shot, bandaged the wound, went to the ER, gave them a fake address, argued with the nurse, stepped out for a smoke break. Would you say this is a typical day for you?

Re:Social security number

[T Murphy]

Wait, how were you modded insightful? You say biometrics will be over-relied on, therefore biometrics are the problem... over-reliance is the problem, and will exist with any system unless properly addressed (again, independent of what system you use). So, how about actually considering how biometrics is different from other systems: any system needs to be considered for two metrics: false positives (false identity stuff), and false negatives (someone can't prove their own identity).

Social security numbers won't get memorized, and ID cards will get lost (just try to hand out ID cards in a shanty town or teach illiterate people how to deal with SSNs), but with biometrics it is simple for people to prove they are who they say they are. As far as false negatives go, biometrics may well be the best system out there.

As for false positives, it is harder to forge a fingerprint or iris scan than to memorize the victim's ID number. A physical ID may or may not be harder to forge, so IDs may be better in this respect. If fingerprints an iris scans and whatnot requires someone observing (and perhaps checking your fingers, etc.), you quickly reduce system failures to bribery, which again is largely independent of what ID solution you use. Of course, even a corrupt biometrics worker might not be able to forge a fingerprint for you the way they could look up the victim's SSN for you.

Re:Social security number

[cthulhu11]

Actually, what bothers me the most about identification systems like this is the invasion of one's privacy What about the money spent doing this in a country with massive poverty? That was my first-blush reaction, that biometric cataloging of people who don't have decent housing and food is a massive foulup of priorities, but then we've seen that there seems to be widespread contempt for the poor there.

Re:Social security number

[AGMW]

As for false positives, it is harder to forge a fingerprint or iris scan than to memorize the victim's ID number.

Interesting that you should say it is harder rather than it is impossible!
Two possibilities suggest themselves to me:
1: Someone sets themselves up with fake fingerprints and becomes you.
2: Someone changes the stored info so their biometrics are stored against your record, so not only do they become you, but you are no longer you!

If we can agree that biometrics are not infallible, then we must assume that all ID checks will have to also check something else and the whole process is no longer any better than the current one!

Re:Social security number

[AGMW]

... Fear of security breaches cannot be a reason to stop a project like this which has so many benefits.

So many benefits to whome? The biggest winners in any sort of national ID scheme are the Government, and by a country mile!
The nu-Labour shysters who tried to impose such a system on us in the UK tried time and time again to tell us how it would be better for us, and each time their argument was shot down in flames! Not one cogent reason was put forward. Not one!

I don't know though, perhaps there's something inherently different about India that there is a benefit to be gained by the general public which will outweigh the unbelievable cost of the system.
I'd be interested to know what these benefits would be.

Re:Social security number

[BangaIorean]

OK, firstly, even though the cost is high, it is generating employment within India, and money is essentially being spent domestically, which makes it 'less bad'.

Regarding benefits, I will provide just one example (there are lots more) from a book called 'Imagining India' that deals with this, among other things : India as of today, is hooked to subsidy based politics. Subsidized fuel, subsidized foodgrain, subsidized everything, and a whole ecosystem of theft and leakage has emerged around the handling of our public funds. Across the leaky subsidy distribution system leakages average 50 per cent or more.

A national ID system would make these porous distribution mechanisms and our dependence on the moral scruples of bureaucrats redundant. The state could instead transfer benefits directly in the form of cash to bank accounts of elegible citizens based on their income returns or assets. Such an approach would not only bring in all citizens within the financial system, but would also give them real financial power. Here's the astounding thing: combining the bulk of our subsidies into a cash entitlement would amount to Rs. 20,000 per family and make them eligible for loans upto Rs. 100,000!

This would redefine our welfare economy as we know it. The gains in efficiency and transparency would be unprecedented.The additional relief would be of no longer having to endure the harassment of officials for bribes, or being denied benefits that are your right. Such a benefit-linked smart card model would also make welfare benefits national, allowing citizens who migrate to the city to continue using certain allowances.

There are other benefits, but you begin to see that India has a different set of requirements and needs from most Western nations.

Re:Social security number

[painehope]

Which in turn leads to the question : does quantity equal quality? And by that I do not mean the quality of each individual member of their society, but rather in the quality of their lives, the quality of what they have to offer (which, at least in IT, has been very little of worth so far - please feel free to give me counterexamples, but when even people who aren't in IT [such as a young woman I was chatting with at a doctor's appointment this morning] express their frustration at the outsourced services they receive from Indians, it only further illustrates my point that most Indians' degrees and certifications they aren't worth the paper they are written upon; my own experience in IT confirms it, with some outstanding exceptions), et al.

Just because you have a large population does not mean that it is a worthwhile country. You could combine the entirety of the continent of Africa, and not come up with one worthwhile contribution to modern society (and that includes most of the Whites living there as well).

Economic theories (which may or may not hold true, and extend to the limits of your or my lifetime, unless you're 15) aside, India has very little to offer the rest of the world. It has to get it's own shit together first - something that this article suggests that it is not doing.

Re:Social security number

[armada]

Simply put. Your biometric data can not be revoked. Every other form of ID, if compromised, can be changed. Not biometric.

On file

[Dyinobal]

Teller: Hmm. We don't seem to have your retina scan, your fingerprint or your colonic map on file. Fry: What about my ATM card?

Wow glad America doesn't do business with India

[HockeyGuy]

thats really special they want to Biometric id a billion people Im sure that won't be used in anyway to reflect the cast system in india.... you know like those people with pay as you go instead of iPhones. Im so glad America doesn't do any business in India can you imagine what would happen if they had access to all of our personal information?

Re:Should I quote from the book of Revelations?

[cosm]

I'll do it for you, its a great karma whoring setup (and might get *real* karma for posting from King James, who knows):

And [the Antichrist] causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

And that no man might buy or sell, save [except] he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Rev 13:16-18 KJV

Re:Should I quote from the book of Revelations?

[Anonymous Coward]

So India is home to the "best and brightest" huh? This proves the country is populated by idiots and mindless drones willing to voluntarily enslave themselves to the government masters. May a thousand plagues beseige you.

Numbers

[kinabrew]

It's interesting that people automatically seem to think of numbers when thinking of unique IDs, like phone numbers or government IDs.

Why?

It would make more sense to just use email addresses. In the same way that it makes sense to use sentences for passwords, it makes more sense for unique IDs to be based on something significantly more diverse and difficult to guess than a meaningless string of numbers.

IDs should be determinable by the person who's going to be affected by them, and in the rare case of duplicates, they should be asked to choose another. There's no reason why everyone needs a "number".

Re:Numbers

[nion]

Do you REALLY want to be tied to xXxcockxhungryxXx@aol.com for the rest of your life?

Re:Numbers

[Peeteriz]

Why should ID numbers be difficult to guess? They are the identification/user name part of authorisation, so they should be as simple and easy to remember/use as possible.

Dont know why you tied this to the blackberry

[Anonymous Coward]

The original intent of this ID is create something akin to the social security number in the US.

I'll tell you two important reasons for this
1. Make resource allocation more efficient.
      For example, there is a concept of basic items like rice, wheat etc... being sold subsidized to poor people.
      That mechanism is very inefficient and red tape laden presently.The ID is supposed to streamline it .

2. Currently there is no concept credit history in India other than a credit card.
        There is no way a dealer would sell you a TV on credit unless you bring somebody known the dealer along with you.

Imagine US without SSN. That is what it is now in India. very inefficient.

Re:Dont know why you tied this to the blackberry

[Compaqt]

Yeah, the credit fueled binge and bust worked out real well in the US ...

Re:Dont know why you tied this to the blackberry

[Anonymous Coward]

He probably earns 140 times the relative income of the average human. Local industry does play a big part in consumerism but it isn't that large. Wealthy people everywhere indulge.

Re:Dont know why you tied this to the blackberry

[computrius]

1) What is more efficient than just giving the damned rice to the people who need it, no questions asked? 2) You act like the concept of a credit history is a GOOD thing. All credit does is open the door for you to be screwed by a bank. All while probably inflating prices because no-one has to have the cash to buy anything where otherwise items would have to be priced to what people could afford or they wouldnt sell (ex. Cars, Houses, etc.). Do you really thing $100,000 would be the cost of a relatively low end home if there were no loans? It has its good points, but it is way too abused and they are far outweighed by the bad ones.

Re:Dont know why you tied this to the blackberry

[williamhb]

The original intent of this ID is create something akin to the social security number in the US.

I'll tell you two important reasons for this
1. Make resource allocation more efficient.
            For example, there is a concept of basic items like rice, wheat etc... being sold subsidized to poor people.
            That mechanism is very inefficient and red tape laden presently.The ID is supposed to streamline it .

2. Currently there is no concept credit history in India other than a credit card.
                There is no way a dealer would sell you a TV on credit unless you bring somebody known the dealer along with you.

Imagine US without SSN. That is what it is now in India. very inefficient.

My goodness -- it'd be like ... Britain, Australia, New Zealand, and all those other countries that don't use a social security identifier as a de facto single compulsory ID for everything else in your life apart from just social security. How horrifying!

In a related topic, the UK's proposed national ID has been scrapped even before it has become compulsory, with the government scrapping it saying they want 'to reverse the substantial erosion of civil liberties and roll back state intrusion.' When you've got a government saying that national IDs are a substantial erosion of civil liberties, it's worth listening to

Of the two "important reasons" for an SSN you mention, neither is valid.

The first does not require your social security number to be used by anyone other than (shock) social security themselves. It doesn't even need to be a universal number across both tax and benefits (and given that tax law and benefits law might sometimes consider income differently, or in ways that are open to case-law interpretation, it seems like a good idea not to link the databases too closely). In India, one of the controversial aspects of the biometric ID is that it will include your caste -- seemingly inviting caste-based discrimination. Again, a case where there's an advantage to deciding not to keep information on file.

The second doesn't require a social security number at all. Australia, Britain, and many other countries have reasonable credit history checking methods that do not require revealing your tax, social services, or other government identifiers.

I suspect India is actually more interested in the biometrics than in the individual ID. The problem they face is that they have a very large rural population who don't interact with official government documentation very often -- and do not have birth certificates, driving licenses, passports, and other documents that are used as proof of identity in more urban/developed countries. A biometric ID would give them one, and one that doesn't matter if the ID card itself gets lost on the farm.

Re:Dont know why you tied this to the blackberry

[hawkingradiation]

This is also why a UID is scary. Imagine a future when resources are scarcer such as in a war. An identity like this would be used to ration goods. That is the positive side when money doesn't mean anything. But there could also be potential drawbacks in the same situation, and huge ones. Suppose someone somewhere doesn't like you and they have access to *deny* you goods and services and this is possible that it could be a large overbearing institution like the government or a large corporation. Right now we can get away from this because we use money, and everybody wants more of it so it is unlikely that someone will refuse a service because they can gain financially from it. So no problem if you can get some money then you can live comfortably. But if the value of money is scarce such as with hyperinflation (tick,tick,tick...) people without a uid could be refused service. Simply because a computer database has determined that they: used up their allotment, or they are on some sort of watch list, and all of these conditions must be met before they receive any goods. People without the id could not be issued service from the entity because they are not in the database: The problem exist when the database owner/maintainer relates to the entity that is giving out the service and not an abstraction like money. Kinda reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode where a guy is punished for a crime and then has a mark put on his forehead. He is then an outcast of society and nobody can even speak to him because there are drones monitoring everything. He goes to the hospital and then a nurse asks him to remove his hat. Only if he doesn't have the mark will he be allowed service. He shows his mark and he is turned away.The uid is the same thing as the "mark" but in this fictional case it is measured by presence of it and not the absence. i.e. the absence is also a mark. One wonders how in the future one could survive without the uid...without the help of society and the burdens.

Re:Dont know why you tied this to the blackberry

[FuckingNickName]

"Earn" has classically been the most abused verb in the West.

"Steal" has taken close second place, especially since the recent invention of "intellectual property".

Over the past decade, "terrorize" has been creeping to third place.

Re:Dont know why you tied this to the blackberry

[pravi.a]

1. Make resource allocation more efficient. For example, there is a concept of basic items like rice, wheat etc... being sold subsidized to poor people. That mechanism is very inefficient and red tape laden presently.The ID is supposed to streamline it .

"The recurring problem with the PDS is not that above poverty line families creep into the system but that many worthy BPL families are out of the ambit of the scheme. A 2005 Planning Commission study found that about 58 per cent of subsidised foodgrain does not reach BPL families. The UID in no way guarantees benefits and the new law doesn't prevent various service providers from seeking other background documents even if an applicant has a valid UID number." from India Today article titled "Identity Crisis"

2. Currently there is no concept credit history in India other than a credit card. There is no way a dealer would sell you a TV on credit unless you bring somebody known the dealer along with you.

Imagine US without SSN. That is what it is now in India. very inefficient.

I see that as a feature of Indian economy. As opposed to credit driven US economy, savings are encouraged and is the normal way in India. Though, I agree people here also started living on credits, but I don't think that is something to be encouraged.

Re:Dont know why you tied this to the blackberry

[Anonymous Coward]

"In India, one of the controversial aspects of the biometric ID is that it will include your caste -- seemingly inviting caste-based discrimination. Again, a case where there's an advantage to deciding not to keep information on file."

Caste and any recognition of this, is illegal in India. I can however understand the government is so inept as to include caste. There are tons of corruption and bad decisions made by government all the time.

India is currently suffering from superiority complex / low esteem from the time occupied by England. It gets annoying when you spend considerable time there, because at first its a bit funny, but then it just gets annoying when being lectured by Indians how things are and how they should be, as if time was turned 50 years back. They also have a hard time getting society to move with the times, so it is understandable many are trying to "wake up" fellow Indians. It just doesn't work well on foreigners..

Re:Dont know why you tied this to the blackberry

[mahadiga]

UIDAI is waste of $30 billion tax payers money where 836 million people are living under 20 rupees per day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India

Get a passport instead. Hope Govt issues Tatkal PASSPORT at a subsidized fee of 20 rupees.
http://passport.gov.in/cpv/FeeStructure.htm

Troll article

[BangaIorean]

What exactly is wrong with having a Unique ID number? The main purpose is to streamline things. Instead of having one 'PAN Card', one 'Voter ID Card' and a dozen other cards like we do now, this will substitute all of them. And what's this nonsense about privacy? People should not write articles without first researching the safeguards built into the system, and believe me - there are a LOT of them. Maybe you ought to think a bit harder about the positive implications of this such as crime prevention, speedy resolution of land disputes, etc. etc. etc.

Re:Troll article

[Darkness404]

Yeah, "crime prevention" more like dissident prevention. Lets see here, everything is tied into a single database which ties in voting, economics, etc. tied into a fingerprint database. A few forged prints here and there and you have a rock solid case to charge any dissident.

Re:Troll article

[Compaqt]

You seem to have a lot of faith in government (or in your government).

The reason Slashdotters (and others) are skeptical of government power is that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

FYI, India is at 74 on the corruption index.

By the way, an ad that pops up when searching for india corruption index is: http://indiaunheard.videovolunteers.org/?s=corruption&x=0&y=0&gclid=CLm1qair-aMCFQtN5wod2T5cGw, which details a lot of corruption. The more tools you give government, the more harm they can do.

It's naive to think that government officials won't use the awesome amount of cross-linked information for their own purposes.

Also, you must likely not be a member of any kind of minority or repressed group (there are such in every country).

Re:Troll article

[Alwin Henseler]

Indeed there's times & places where it's important to be sure who you are dealing with (for example when opening a bank account, or do a driver's exam), and having a unique ID for that purpose is okay IMO. What's wrong is using such unique ID anywhere & everywhere just because it's convenient, and store loads of info coupled to that single ID that isn't absolutely necessary for its purpose. Train company shouldn't need to know who's on the train & exactly what route someone is traveling, just that passenger has paid his/her ticket. Keeping more personally identifiable info than that around, is the same as poking around in people's private lives where you have no business poking around. Which is even worse when governments are doing it... Also love this quote:

"For the poor this is a huge benefit because they have no identities, no birth certificates, degree certificates, driver's licences, passports or even addresses."

If I were one of those poor, I'd be deeply offended by silly statement like that. All people on this planet have identities (as in: unique person unlike any other), place/date where they were born & address / area where they live. The only thing you're talking about here, are pieces of dead tree that state one thing or the other (true or otherwise).

Re:Troll article

[oiron]

Trains in India and attempting to validate everyone's ID? Good luck with that!

Actually, when we book a ticket online, and take the printed ticket on a train, we have to carry some ID to ensure that the person who's travelling is the same that the ticket was booked for. This is basically to prevent people from booking in bulk in advance and then reselling the tickets. Usually, it's just any photo-ID, and the conductor glances at it and at your face, and moves onto the next passenger. If the ticket is for multiple people, any one person having the ID is usually enough.

Re:Troll article

[BangaIorean]

India (and I suppose all countries in the world, including the US ), have databases where vehicle registration details are stored, so that a vehicle owner can be traced based on his vehicle registrsation number. So, just because the Indian bureaucracy is corrupt, do we do away with vehicle registration numbers?

Re:Troll article

[Capsaicin]

Maybe you ought to think a bit harder about the positive implications of this such as crime prevention, speedy resolution of land disputes, etc. etc. etc.

Not to mention how it streamlines the often difficult task of identity theft.

Re:Troll article

[Capsaicin]

The reason Slashdotters (and others) are skeptical of government power is that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Now I do agree with you. I would not like to see this much information so easily collated in the hands of administrative authorities and I would add that it's not only governments, but also powerful private interests which would value access to such information about individuals. However, mindlessly repeating glib cliches is a poor way of demonstrating scepticism.

Does absolute power really corrupt absolutely? I sincerely doubt it. Is there even anything approaching a (negative) correlation between some index of government power and the corruption index you cite? China which is marginally less corrupt on that index appears to have far more authoritarian control, the bottom position is shared between Myanmar where the state rules with an iron fist and Somalia which has seen a complete collapse of state power, while Germany, which for decades has required citizens to carry an identification pass bearing a unique number ID is among the least corrupt.

Re:Troll article

[Capsaicin]

... let's just ban this whole system.

I'm glad I've been able to persuade you. ;)

Seriously though, the fact that a very obvious, very profitable (meaning it will happen), and very serious (for the victims) misuse exists doesn't give you pause? No offence, but in weighing up the pros and cons, I don't feel you have been as diligent as you might have been.

Re:Troll article

[duggi]

Actually we have a lot of faith in our corruption. Look, its not that I just know that somebody is corrupt, it is also that I know how to use it.
In a previous attempt, this same exercise created many dupes and gave birth to many non existing people. I am talking about iris scanners here, and the officials themselves, top civil servants can be trusted. It is not a bad database design too, remember, we create most of the designs for your systems. It was later found out that a political party created these, and the method was by bribing some of the data collectors.

Every system is corrupt, even this one. If your authorities want to screw you, trust me, they don't need this. This is only for the better.

Re:Troll article

[hawkingradiation]

"crime prevention": "I see you were about to commit a crime there Mr. Singh, may I have your unique id number so that I may arrest you as a preventative measure". I am not aware of the safeguards that have been put in place. Is it true that no one will have low level access to the database ala Plan 9? Will corruption be made more difficult, but more damaging if achieved? Can you help me answer these questions such as an official website that describes how it will be implemented. Just saying...

Re:Troll article

[BangaIorean]

Yes, those are very valid questions. What I know about this is through media reports and interviews. I will put together the information from official websites and submit the technical details as a story to slashdot and hopefully it gets published, and under 'technology' instead of 'your rights online'!

Re:Troll article

[RivenAleem]

What exactly is wrong with having a Unique ID number?

People with lower UIDs end up with a superiority complex.

Re:Troll article

[Crayon Kid]

You seem to have a lot of faith in government (or in your government). The reason Slashdotters (and others) are skeptical of government power is that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It strikes me as interesting that most of the countries opposing UIDs on principle are island nations or otherwise isolated, who have never experienced occupation or dictatorship. It seems to me that in some respects they are still just theoretical experiments in democracy with no real-world validation.

What does "freedom" mean to a nation who's never had it taken away from them by force? It's just an empty word, something taken for granted. It's like a child imagining what it's like to be an adult or a rookie without the baptism of fire imagining war. They worry about meaningless things. Only once you've actually experienced the darkest form of denial of freedom you learn what freedom means, you value it, you learn to protect it. And then you stop worrying about silly things like UIDs.

The nations using UIDs have learned those lessons. Most European nations at some point in history have had to take shit from someone. It was a healthy exercise.

It's not that they trust their governments. Of course all governments are corrupt to some extent. Of course any system can and will be abused, since you have to trust someone at some point. They accept and live with this reality. You know who is the ultimate watchdog of the people's civil liberties? The people themselves. When liberties are trampled, such as an UID being misused, they react and correct the situation. When politicians step out of line they are reminded of it.

Opposing the technology itself is the solution of the person who has already given up on defending their civil liberties and sees no other hope. Is that what's going on the US and the UK?

As for biometrics, it's a stupid non-issue. We already use biometrics. Picture IDs are biometrics. Except they're very poor ones. Pics of the head taken once every 10 years? As the sole means of identification it's a stupid idea. They're worthless when you think of beards, scars, glasses, cosmetic surgery, haircuts, hats and so on. Easy to fake, unreliable. As long as that was the only technology we had it was alright but why not complement it with something better if we can?

Re:Troll article

[BangaIorean]

"The kind of safeguards that allowed lakhs (hundreds of thousands) of fake ration cards? That allow the pilfering of PDS goods (Public Distribution System, to the uninitiated)." The UID aims to prevent exactly this kind of pilfering and corruption. Why don't you google the aims and purpose of the UID? And oh yeah, your comment on reservations is a two edged thing. Lots of people might say that that kind of affirmative action is a good thing but that's a different discussion altogether.

Re:Troll article

[BangaIorean]

And by the way, you're stretching it a bit too far if you think that you'll be asked for your UID when you withdraw money, watch movies, and so on. Not sure if that was meant to be sarcastic.

Currently you need an identity proof for many things - a phone connection, a new bank account and so on. What makes you think that as of today, you can't be traced based on the documents you submit such as your driving licence, PAN card, etc? Why the hate for just this UID? Next you'll tell me that all kinds of documentation should be abolished!

Re:Troll article

[Threni]

> Every system is corrupt, even this one. If your authorities want to screw you, trust me, they don't need this. This is only for the better.

Faulty logic. This makes it far, far easier for the authorities to screw with you. How are you going to get on the internet, train, order tickets for flights abroad etc etc if you're going to get rejected because your number's on a database, having been added by someone who knows you and doesn't like you?

Re:Troll article

[spottedice]

Or not. There was this trouble at an Indian embassy with a hijacked email account....Turns out they were using windows XP protected by....*drumroll* Trend micro. I don't remember which embassy, or who exactly was affected, nor could I find an article online, but I do remember reading about it on the front page of the Times of India.

Re:Troll article

[spottedice]

My point ( I registered) was that safeguards ALREADY exist to prevent the sort of abuse I've outlined. Remember, the official statement does not necessarily mean that the system will be used and only used as the statement says it will. If that were true, why does the official statement for the ration card program not say anything about the massive abuse that the system has seen? As for reservation, it is a political tool. Affirmative action is for **minorities**. The kind of vote bank politics we've seen lean closer to "vote for me, and I'll get you reservation in government jobs/ education". The politics would only work if the portion of the population the reservations are going to are in the *majority*. As far as tracing someone via driving license, PAN cards, etc is concerned, paperwork still has to be done to acquire the details from the relevant authorities (the phone company, the RTA (like the DMV) etc. A UUID would make that so much easier, since EVERTHING is consolidated into a single database. Distribution of power is essential to preventing it's abuse; Checks and balances and all that. But I digress. My point is that I don't trust safeguards. And putting such a massive amount of power in the hands of a known-bad system is asking for real trouble.

Re:Troll article

[BangaIorean]

A UUID would make that so much easier, since EVERTHING is consolidated into a single database

There are lot of misconceptions and misinformation about the UID program, and this is one of them. I agree with you that safeguards cannot be trusted, but at the end of the day, we need to weigh the pros and cons of the issue keeping in mind the conditions and environment in India.

What I've heard from a guy who is associated in some way with this project is that they are not going to have a single database that stores all the information. The idea is to have multiple databases, each having a subset of data. This data partitioning will be done at a record (row) level , so that access to one single database does not provide a hacker with all information about an individual. And of course In addition to this there won't be a single DB with data for all citizens - there will be several different ones.

The biometric information is totally distinct from these databases, and will be placed under athe control of a different Government department from the one that handles the rest of the data. And I believe that even the rest of the data will be split across various Government departments.

And the data in the database itself will most probably be encrypted too. And of course, each of these databases will be massively replicated for fault tolerance and redundancy. And needless to say, none of these machines will be connected to the internet!

And Nandan Nilekani, who heads this project, is a tad more trustworthy than the retards in the Government.

Re:Troll article

[mahadiga]

Whenever Govt asks you any information, be afraid, be really afraid. Because they will use that information against you.

Here we go...

[RealBigUns]

Biometrics are all fun and good until somebody loses a hand or an eye...(or they are stolen)

the financial otption

[Lord Ender]

Getting people biometrics is sure cheaper than teaching people how to read! Way to go, Indian government! Keep the people ignorant to save a few bucks.

Re:Should I quote from the book of Revelations?

[dunng808]

Reminds me of the plot of "On Wings of Eagles." EDS was implementing a national ID card system which went beyong the population's threshold. I sure hope we do not see a similar outcome in this case.

Duplicate names and birthday do not serve well as

[Anonymous Coward]

India has a much less uniform naming system, with a lot more duplicate birthdays + names, and much less variance in traits. How many Amrish Patels exist with the same name, color hair, color eyes, and same birthday in India?

My name is not too common, but still I have a duplicate in my home US state - same name and same birthday for two people. That's fine most of the time, but the other guy is a felon, and the state does not require SSN when you are arrested. Therefore, they cannot distinguish me from the felon. My insurance was cancelled retroactively for 1 month while I was out of town. (thanks to Choicepoint for incorrectly associated his name and criminal record with my insurance - you should opt out). My voter registration was cancelled since they do not use a common primary key for voters.

Therefore I prefer a real unique identifier that the state government would respect and correctly associate with me. Since the state uses drivers licenses as their primary key, and the feds use SSN as their primary key, I can have different identities in different states, and the cops may accuse me of being the escaped felon one day when I am innocent.

I don't like the idea of biometrics, but I also don't trust an inaccurate primary key as my identification. A name + birthday != unique.

The enforcement of privacy should be in the way they allow usage of the identity. Credit and Taxes perhaps are tier 2 concerns compared with entering and leaving the country.

Just a thought...

the mythbusters pointed out how easy finger prints

[Joe The Dragon]

the mythbusters pointed out how easy finger prints are easy to fake.

So what happens when....

[Gunfighter]

... someone forgets to use unsigned instead of signed and you end up wrapping around to being a negative person?

Re:So what happens when....

[yahwotqa]

Oh please. We all know this will be done in Java.

What to call it

[bradorsomething]

I propose we call it the Caste'r-Card.

That way every checkpoint can require Caste'r-Card and Visa to get in.

Re:the mythbusters pointed out how easy finger pri

[T Murphy]

Was the fingerprint faked to a dumb machine, or to a machine supervised by a person? Of course India may just use the dumb machine variant, but if not I expect it would be far more difficult to keep your antics from being noticed. Keep in mind the article also mentions an iris scanner, although I don't know how the security of that compares to a fingerprint.

Yes, there is always bribery, but this system may be more secure than others on that aspect, as you may still need that faked fingerprint (as opposed to the corrupt worker just looking up the victim's SSN).

Re:Duplicate names and birthday do not serve well

[oiron]

Not to mention, names can change through a person's life, say by marriage, or by religious conversion. Or maybe simply because someone doesn't like their current name. Or because they're the-artist-formerly-and-now-currently-known-as-Prince.

In India, it becomes even more difficult - I see newspaper reports every day with people named as "A" alias "B"; not necessarily for illicit purposes, but just because they may be called differently by different people. Besides, I (for example) don't really have a "family name" - I have a given name and a couple of other identifiers. Even for those who do have "family" names, it's more of a "community" name. For example, the name "Singh" would indicate a North Indian, either a Sikh, or one of the many Hindu clans that use the name. It's not just likely that someone bearing the same first + last name would be pretty similar in physical characteristics, it would be almost a given.

Quite frankly, I'm glad we're finally getting this.

Re:caste system...

[oiron]

Because in many places, it's part of a person's identity in India. Though reduced now, it's quite common for legal contracts to state a person's caste, religion, name, father's name, residence, age, and pretty much anything else.

Re:Duplicate names and birthday do not serve well

[iammani]

India has a much less uniform naming system, with a lot more duplicate birthdays + names, and much less variance in traits. How many Amrish Patels exist with the same name, color hair, color eyes, and same birthday in India?

How many Amrish Patels exist with the same name, fathers name, mother name and birthdate? I am assuming not many.

PS: if you still believe many, add pincode (Indian equivalent of zipcode) to the list.

Re:Mark of the Beast

[hairyfeet]

I once was talking about biometrics with a preacher whose PC I was installing. The whole bit where the guy had his entire life and house controlled by the RFID chip in his hand had folks talking, so I naturally assumed a preacher would think Revelations. "Nope, not worried about that in the least" When I asked him why he said "Do you really think a being THAT old, that originally stood at the side of God, would be THAT obvious? It is so much easier to do, and the public will NEVER catch on". When I asked him how he asked me to tell him my last three SS digits, which of course I could from memory. He then emphasized this passage "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads . He said we ALREADY had a mark, and all it would take is a national rationing system like in time of worldwide disaster to make it true. While I don't believe in religion, I have to admit I couldn't think of a comeback for that one.

As for TFA, in many ways I feel sorry for India. While we were able to gradually progress they are basically trying to jump from third to first world pretty much in super fast forward. The logistics of doing that and dealing with the unreal amount of info one has to collect to keep from having widespread fraud in the digital age is just insanity. While I can understand them wanting to take any shortcuts they can gvet, tying this much info without a hell of a firewall around it will come back to bite them in the ass if they aren't careful.

In database terms...

[KingAlanI]

In database terms, perhaps a lot of places are being lazy enough to not set up a better primary key?

Re:In database terms...

[blackraven14250]

Well, it's not about that. It's because people shouldn't have to remember 12 different numbers for 12 places, so it's just a unique attribute that happens to be the same across every institution.

Re:In database terms...

[KingAlanI]

what I meant by that was using the SSN or its non-US equivalent as a lazy way to get a primary key or something analogous to one. The SSN does work for that, just with a lot of other issues.

A non-SSN number to serve a similar ID purpose sounds like a good idea for that combining reason, yes

I have a lot of database theory/design-type classes fall term, so this phrasing is especially likely to come to mind, sorry

Re:In database terms...

[blackraven14250]

what I meant by that was using the SSN or its non-US equivalent as a lazy way to get a primary key or something analogous to one. The SSN does work for that, just with a lot of other issues.

A non-SSN number to serve a similar ID purpose sounds like a good idea for that combining reason, yes

I have a lot of database theory/design-type classes fall term, so this phrasing is especially likely to come to mind, sorry

Yes, I was thinking database too. The thing is, it's never used as a primary key in a good database; just as its own unique value for easy lookup. That why student ID cards have an ID number on them. That's the school's primary key.

But, for the purposes of finding a student's record, SSN is much easier than student ID when the student is present.

Re:In database terms...

[KingAlanI]

Yes, although I can remember the one particular ID number for my university, having to remember a lot of such ID numbers would be like something /.'ers probably know well - password wrangling on The Internet. I suppose multiple businesses all wanting the SSN is a good analogy in meatspace. Guess some have a higher memory capacity than others.

Re:caste system...

[BangaIorean]

For one thing, affirmative action. India has a HUGE affirmative action program for the "lower castes". Linking caste to the ID ensures that people cannot fraudlently claim caste benefits.

Re:Should I quote from the book of Revelations?

[DigiShaman]

And this "Beast"; would that be a computer system, or the government? Either way, the system grows without care or remorse. Sounds like the perfect antichrist in the true sense of the word. Anti-Christian morals/values indeed.

What about the Mritak Sangh?

[WhitetailKitten]

What will this do for Lal Bihari and the many other people declared legally dead (while still possessing for all intents and purposes all characteristics of a living person if not legal identification)? If the answer is "nothing," then I don't see that this is much of an improvement or advancement in the task of maintaining records on your population.

/* Yes, corruption can override anything. I know. */

Re:Mark of the Beast

[zippthorne]

If your Social Security Number is your "true name" then you told this preacher the most powerful part, quite casually.

The first three digits are location. Anyone doing a tiny bit of research can find that out about you, and the next two digits are "lot number." This can be guessed pretty accurately by knowing the time of birth. If you can bracket the birth date with others' whose lot numbers you know, you can determine it as well.

That leaves four digits to uniquely and "secretly" identify you. Of which you gave up three without any prodding....

Re:Duplicate names and birthday do not serve well

[Sam the Nemesis]

How would you tackle the case of this village:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/In-Gunnalli-village-all-men-are-Gyanappa-all-women-are-Gyanavva/articleshow/6494036.cms>/a>

It's all a matter of implementation

[Constantin]

There are many benefits to having a national ID system that go well beyond the SSN in the US. For example, authorities may finally have a pretty good idea how many folk live in a particular area, which helps for voting, disaster-relief, and other efforts traditionally spearheaded by the authorities. Similarly, the use of one unified system that does not rely on the presence of a physical card could hopefully make law enforcement a bit better at avoiding false positives and negatives.

In a country with over a billion inhabitants, having a system that assigns a ID number which is anchored by multiple biometric identifiers seems like a pretty good start, assuming the back end is secure, hard to tamper with, etc. This is what worries me though - similar previous Indian Government efforts, such as "untamperable" electronic voting machines designed for the Indian elections, have been proven to be quite vulnerable to tampering. Similarly, given how easy it can be to bribe corrupt officials, I wonder what the quality of the data will be once it has been entered / maintained / etc. for a while.

The bottom line is that systems which rely on aggregating a lot of data have to be pretty resistant to being fed garbage in the first place and/or manipulated in the future. This is where Indian institutions have to do better in the future and one good reason why India lags other nations as badly as it does. And yet, I imagine the system that is being presented will still be light-years ahead of what India has now.

Re:It's all a matter of implementation

[BangaIorean]

MOD parent up. Refreshing to see a sane comment after all the tripe about 'privacy', 'dictatorship', and so much bullshit. The focus needs to be on the technology being used, the implementation methodology, how secure the databases are going to be, how access will be limited to the system.

Instead of presenting technical facts about this massive implementation and presenting it as a technology article, it's been presented as a [smirks and sniggers] 'your rights online' article, with bullshit scaremongering and half baked information about 'caste system' and 'religion'. This is a retarded article.

Re:Duplicate names and birthday do not serve well

[gblfxt]

why is it the rest of the animal world has gotten by just fine without incessantly tracking each other? it seems monkeys, zebras, lions, etc. have gotten by for ages without know whats going on 2 neighborhoods down, but humans can't handle it?

Not sleepwalking, more like zombies

[kromagnon]

I know it's old but... India Sleepwalks Into a Surveillance Society
"ZeroPaid has a fascinating roundup of news stories surrounding the latest surveillance laws passed in India, including a first-hand account of someone writing from inside India. The legislation in question is the Information Technology Act's amendment bill 2006, which was recently passed in the Indian parliament. Things you can't do with the new legislation include surfing for news in Bollywood and looking up porn on the internet. The legislation also allows all transmissions over the internet to be monitored for any form of lawbreaking and permits a sub-inspector to break into your house to make sure you aren't browsing porn on your computer."
Democracy is null and void for the moment.

What's the big surprise here?

[haruchai]

  Regrettably this is the way the world is going and the stupid sheeple don't know how to fight back. Also, isn't India the country that cut off the balls of thousands during forced sterilization in the '70s?

Re:What's the big surprise here?

[haruchai]

True enough. Many (all?) countries have practiced oppression of one or more groups at one time or another, sometimes for decades or centuries.

Which brings me back to India - look at their treatement of the Dalits for, oh, about three thousand years, give or take a few.

Re:What's the big surprise here?

[haruchai]

Limiting it to the last decade seems awful convenient when you're considering a societal practice that has endured for millenia in a country that is one of the worlds oldest civilizations, despite the efforts of some prominent people, such as Gautama Buddha himself to change it.

  Well 300 million sounds like a lot but that still leaves 700 million - who, I imagine, are really the ones who make up the might of the Indian state, in the world's most populous democracy.

It's telling that, almost 60 years after the abolition of the caste system, its roots still run deep.
Many of the incidents listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste-related_violence_in_India fall within your 10-year limit and the description of violence are quite horrific. It seems that the Indian state is judiciously withholding its might.
I've not had much success in finding reliable statistics among inter-caste marriage (at any level). When that becomes commonplace and accepted throughout the country, then talk to me about dramatic change.
And, as yet, no Dalit has risen to the office of Prime Minister, although a Sikh has.
By the way, where are the terms of Chief Justices so brief? Most don't make it to the end of their 5-year term.

Re:What's the big surprise here?

[haruchai]

And, if you feel the need to criticize the USA, by all means, proceed. I both praise and damn it, and other countries, on a regular basis.

But, I'm a bit mystified as to why you believe it's my country.

Re:What's the big surprise here?

[haruchai]

Regarding the "affirmative action" or "uplift" program, it seems that there are Dalits and then there are Dalits - the ones who practice Hinduism fare much better than those who don't - a double helping of apartheid in a secular democracy.

I would sooner see India become the Asian superpower over China but I doubt they can heal the huge societal rifts that have plague them. Stepping outside your 10-year fence but staying within modern times, it's instructive to recall that, after the withdrawal of British rule, India quickly became, not one country, but three.

Re:What's the big surprise here?

[haruchai]

This nonsense of 'there are Dalits and there are Dalits' is mischievous malicious propaganda. Dalits are Hindus. They were treated as the bottom rung of Hindu society by the other castes historically, but they were, and are Hindus. A Dalit today will mention his religion as 'Hindu', if asked to fill it in an application form.

Is it surprising that someone would lie on a form if it made the difference between getting assistance or employment or not?

India of today is modern India, and in no way identifies itself with pre-independence India - the two are completely separate. No one in India even dreams about going back to the pre-1947 state. When we say India, we refer only to post independence India. Now, it's the other country, Pakistan which has divided into two, while on the other hand, India has stayed united, in spite of all the naysayers and skeptics! So, your argument about India being divided is extremely silly.

I wonder if the Punjabi Sikhs would think me silly or are they not still dreaming of a Khalistan formed out of the (pre-Independence) Greater Punjab. It's probably a very good thing for Indian unity that Manmohan Singh leads the country and is so well regarded across the political spectrum.

We don't consider the other two countries to be part of India, we don't want them, we don't want anything to do with them. Let them go their own ways - they were never part of "India" and hopefully never will be.

It's a lot easier to keep a country together when you have contiguous borders or do not have a large, strong enemy territory to cross.
I think it was inevitable that the 2 former Pakistans would go their own way. If Islam hasn't been able to create one giant united state in the Middle East despite having so much in common and having so much of the most useful and coveted substance in human history, there was little chance of a split Pakistan enduring.

Re:Duplicate names and birthday do not serve well

[Jedi Alec]

As soon as the zebra's get together and hire machine gunners to defend their watering holes from lions, they're going to need some sort of way to determine that all the zebra's chipped in to pay for it.

Then again, they'll probably just use some sort of barcode scanner.

Re:Should I quote from the book of Revelations?

[Enigmafan]

So India is home to the "best and brightest" huh? This proves the country is populated by idiots and mindless drones willing to voluntarily enslave themselves to the government masters. May a thousand plagues beseige you.

Why? It is voluntary. What happens if only 1% of the Indian people actually allow themselves to be scanned? That would be a powerful signal to the governemnet that people don't want this system.

Re:Duplicate names and birthday do not serve well

[Pastis]

Because you will now see UUIDs in newspapers ?

There are some good reasons to change name. (think witness protection program). Some are traceable, some are not. Depends on the intent.

But saying you want an ID isn't necessarily the same as saying you agree with biometrics. In France and in Norway, we have a unique social security number, but we don't use biometrics to define it.

Re:Mark of the Beast

[maxwell demon]

When I asked him how he asked me to tell him my last three SS digits, which of course I could from memory.

You should have made them up. "666" would have been a pretty interesting choice. :-)

Re:Should I quote from the book of Revelations?

[L4t3r4lu5]

Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

I lived alone... My mind was blank...

Re:Duplicate names and birthday do not serve well

[Peeteriz]

I can't understand how anyone who dislikes unique numbers assigned by government would even consider involving your mother's/father's name, your birthdate and place of living.
"name, fathers name, mother name and birthdate" = much, much bigger invasion of privacy than a unique ID number. If a document being processed by some official lists your name+birthdate, then it opens up issues for possible discrimination by age/sex/nationality - think officials processing permits looking if the guy has a muslim or hindu name, or age-screening of CVs by the birth-dates listed for identification.

Why should anyone care who your father is and even if you know his name? Why should your ID change when you move to a different state, a paternity suit decides that there is a different father, you change your name and recolor your hair?

Given an average Indian level of corruption, any objective systems of identification are far superior to subjective ones, where some random official can decide if you are or aren't person X based on some criteria. Your comment "I am assuming not many" is ridiculous - the only acceptable answer would be "I can personally guarantee that only 1 such person exists", otherwise it means that it's ok for one person to be held accountable for another persons debts or misdeeds simply because their names/birthdays might happen to randomly match, or one person has deliberately claimed to have a different name/birthdate in a identity theft attempt.

Not really

[aepervius]

Insofar that you cannot go back to the iris scan, finger print or facial photograph from the number, it is about as relevant as social sec number. Roughly said, a MD5 of a photograph of you to uniquely identify you, is not a privacy scarifying act , more than having *ANY* personally unique identifier. It would be scary only if the amount of info in that number is enough to reverse engineer any of the associated biometrics. It does not seem to be the case.

Re:Not really

[Raenex]

Insofar that you cannot go back to the iris scan, finger print or facial photograph from the number

What makes you think that you won't be able to? The whole point of using biometrics is that the number is verifiable. Of course they're going to have a lookup service, which I'm sure will, if not immediately, at some point give you all the information based on any single identifier (number, fingerprint, iris, or facial photograph).

Biometrics - Why not only DNA ?

[ProgramErgoSum]

A biometric like iris scan or a fingerprint would be an image. Whereas, DNA could be broken into sets of 'codons' and hence probably a text string. (See item 6 at http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/AB/BA/DNA_Fingerprinting_Basics.php) So, from a database point of view a biometric like iris scan would be an image whereas DNA would be VARCHAR ? Therefore, wouldn't it be easier to save/search/match/etc. DNA information ?

Parity is key for ID

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really. IDs should be like bank / account numbers. They should include a parity-part which ensures the number itself is correct, and not changed in some random way.

Using email address is not really that different from a number either. Remember: A=65, B=66, C=67.. etc. Spammers have proven that even an unused email-address can be guessed, if not too complicated. So text will not solve much, just be another representation of the same kind of information.

Parity-bits would make sense for an ID number. If one number gets wrong, it shouldn't be POSSIBLE to mistake the identity for another.

SSN is not an ID

[spedrosa]

People doesn't seem to get it. The SSN number is not an ID.

It should only be useful for the Social Security. However, due to lack of alternatives, it's been bastardized as a general ID.

Also, you are a bunch of crybabies. In Brazil, we have:

0- Birth certificate
1- ID (requires 1 to get) (has photo)
2- CPF ('physical' person registry) (arguably redundant with No.1, but required for historical reasons). It has a status, which is tied to your income tax papers. If you do not pay the damn taxes, or if you fail to present proof that you are not required to annually (too low income, for instance), it gets 'dirty' and will not be accepted anywhere until you clear it up. (requires 1 to get, no photo so 1 is required almost everywhere you have to present this). This is what is commonly used as a natural key in databases.
3- Voting card, also with an unique ID (requires 1 and 2)
4- Military enrollment card (requires 1, 2, physical examination etc)
5- If you want to be employed (not a business owner, not in the military), you require something that looks very like a passport and records all your employment history. Rough translation would be 'Worker's wallet'. (requires 1, 2, 3, 4 if memory serves right)
6- Driver's license, if you drive. As it has a photo ID and has (1 and 2) written in it, it can serve as your ID for most purposes

I might be forgetting something, but the above are expected for all citizens. God help you if you are mugged with those in your wallet. It can take weeks to get new copies. And the birth certificate is the greatest pain of all, so almost everyone presents copies when required.

Re:the mythbusters pointed out how easy finger pri

[Raenex]

The summary states they're taking fingerprints, iris scans, and photographs. That's quite a lot to fake all at once.

Re:Mark of the Beast

[hairyfeet]

Yep, cause a preacher that drives an 89 Ram and can't even get printer sharing to work between two Windows XP boxes hooked to the same router, he is really gonna remember and more importantly use those numbers against me...get real! Not every preacher out there is Jerry Falwell dude.

He and his wife are the closest I've ever met to someone actually living the life of Jesus, as opposed to just repeating the words. If you gave that man $100,000 he might spend $1,000 on parts to keep his and his wife's vehicles going, which he does the work himself as he says no man ought to be too good for a little honest hard labor, and the rest he would spend on the poor and the homeless. I actually met the man when he would come out on his own time and read the paper and bible stories to my great grandma when her eyesight was getting bad. He and his wife would just happen to drop by every day just to check on her or see if we needed anything.

So while I'm all for being paranoid, there are actually some truly decent people still left in this world, rare though they may be.

Re:Should I quote from the book of Revelations?

[FriendlyPrimate]

I never really did understand what that passage was trying to say. This is how I read it:

"Only smart people will be able to figure out the number of the beast. Oh, and by the way, it's 666."

Huh?

Re:Should I quote from the book of Revelations?

[Tickety-boo]

I think this may have more to it than the KJ translation. I believe in greek it would be DCLXVI, or 500+100+50+10+5+1 which to me looks like a countdown timer or a bunch of numbers in descending order.

I am no bible scholar, so this is just my observation

Re:Should I quote from the book of Revelations?

[Nynaeve]

The number of the beast is meant to be understood using the concepts of the time in which it is relevant. In this case, my guess is ASCII. Maybe it's just coincidence, but:
B + I + L + L + G + A + T + E +S + III
66 + 73 + 76 + 76 + 71 + 65 + 84 + 69 + 83 + 3 = 666

I do not think that trying to use Greek numbering is relevant, though.

Re:Mark of the Beast

[Nynaeve]

the "right hand" is the fingerprint, and the "forehead" is the retinal scan. Think of it from John's perspective. What he saw were people scanning their fingers and eyes, and he described it as best he could.

all it would take is a national rationing system like in time of worldwide disaster to make it true.
21 Dec 2012. I wish it were just silly Mayan prophecy, but it isn't. You will see prophecy fulfilled.