£32k a Day For Birmingham Council Website

Shhhhh by Lije+Baley · 2010-09-11 18:25 · Score: 5, Funny

It's just this kind of nonsense that keeps us computer folk employed.

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Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.

Re:Shhhhh by sortius_nod · 2010-09-11 20:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

I have a T-shirt from think geek that sums it up:
"Technical Support: Your ignorance is my job security"
I wonder if this is the employee uniform at Capita?
Re:Shhhhh by Sulphur · 2010-09-11 20:58 · Score: 1

Do they have an app to compute their salary in real time?
Re:Shhhhh by SimonTheSoundMan · 2010-09-11 21:15 · Score: 4, Informative

I live in Birmingham, I know people that work in IT at the council.
IT was taken over by Capitia, they also have contracts for many other councils and government departments. I have never known a corporate company to be so wasteful and incompetent.
Biggest news last years was the re-write of the web site. Was first estimated to be cost jut over £600k, and was to be competed in March 2006. However, Capita over-run and completed it mid 2009 at a cost of £2.2 million.
http://www.birminghampost.net/news/politics-news/2009/08/04/cost-of-new-birmingham-city-council-website-spirals-to-2-8m-65233-24307674/
Re:Shhhhh by SimonTheSoundMan · 2010-09-11 21:19 · Score: 2, Interesting

Oh, the cost I stated above was for the redesign. I'm sure you can make your own mind up about how it was such a huge failure.
http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/
Re:Shhhhh by Flossymike · 2010-09-11 21:24 · Score: 2, Informative

Very curious. Why all the white space in the page source?
Re:Shhhhh by SimonTheSoundMan · 2010-09-11 21:28 · Score: 1

It used to be, why is there so much white space in the content. :S
Re:Shhhhh by cyber-vandal · 2010-09-11 21:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

They're called Crapita by Private Eye for a reason. However public service IT in the last 3 decades is a long story of waste, incompetence and stupidity. Hooray for privatisation - a worse service for a higher cost!
Re:Shhhhh by oldmac31310 · 2010-09-11 21:39 · Score: 1

Gosh. Must be a bloody lovely website for that kind of money. I think there must be a problem with the authorization. Private companies will charge as much as they can get. The council is to blame and the person at the council authorizing such expenditure; he/she must have been getting kickbacks. Just conjecture, mind.

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http://www.acetonestudio.com
Re:Shhhhh by SwedishPenguin · 2010-09-11 22:28 · Score: 1

Damn. 16889 lines of "code", about 99% empty lines. Maybe they're paid by the line?
Re:Shhhhh by hldn · 2010-09-11 23:30 · Score: 3, Funny

the source code is actually a program written in whitespace

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Re:Shhhhh by omar.sahal · 2010-09-11 23:36 · Score: 1

I've heard that web designers do this so its hard to copy their work!
Re:Shhhhh by gilesjuk · 2010-09-11 23:51 · Score: 1

I guess if they didn't have a website people would complain about having to phone up and wait.
If it wasn't websites it would be call centres.
Of course, the cost is over the top even for Birmingham (the second city).
Re:Shhhhh by chewy_fruit_loop · 2010-09-12 01:09 · Score: 1

They probably are including the cost of hardware, support and services such as bill payment in the total, not just the setup cost
Without a breakdown of what that cost is for, this is all meaningless
Re:Shhhhh by Hero+Zzyzzx · 2010-09-12 01:41 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm betting they're building this in a framework (though "framework" may be too grand a word) that mixes the presentation and logic layer. All that whitespace represents branches in the code (conditionals, database queries, etc.) that weren't executed for that particular page view - or were executed and nothing was output to the screen in that line number. If you don't write your erb tags correctly in Rails, it'll emit spurious whitespace into the source, too. If you weren't writing your logic in your controllers or models (bad!) and not asking erb to collapse whitespace, yeah, you'd get a ton of empty lines.
Oh god. If that's true, this site is an untemplatted nightmare under the covers. Worst case: "Hey, can we change 'Latest News' to just 'news?'" "Sure - just edit line 6643, but don't throw in a syntax error or you'll break the *entire f'ing site.*"
Re:Shhhhh by Tanktalus · 2010-09-12 01:44 · Score: 4, Insightful

As always, capitalism only works when all sides are peers in the transaction. That means that the person, or, in this case, the government bureaucrat, who looks for private companies to tender on a contract needs to be aware of what they're asking for. They need to understand what the transaction entails, and they need to understand the alternatives (whether hiring someone to do it in-house, or it's simply the competition in the marketplace). Any time you are at an informational disadvantage, you open yourself up to being taken for a ride. There's a reason why government tenders generally include the clause "we reserve the right to go with any vendor, not just the lowest bid" or something like that: so that they can weed out crackpot offers.
It seems to me, then, that the person in Birmingham's city government who decided to go with this outfit was at an informational disadvantage and could thus be duped by incompetent and/or malicious corporations. They apparently took the lowest bid, not the best bid.
Re:Shhhhh by JohnnyBGod · 2010-09-12 01:57 · Score: 1

Or maybe they use it to come up with bogus bandwidth figures so they get paid more.
Re:Shhhhh by neorush · 2010-09-12 02:13 · Score: 1

Coldfusion, "Whitespace Suppression" turned off looks exactly like this, poorly coded rails does to....would also explain some of the cost...since ColdFusion licenses are ridiculous. All though the headers say PHP 4....I've seen some shops change this for a little obscurity.

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neorush
Re:Shhhhh by Mitchell314 · 2010-09-12 02:19 · Score: 1

ctrl-u ctrl-a ctrl-c?

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I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
Re:Shhhhh by John+Hasler · 2010-09-12 02:28 · Score: 1

> Hooray for privatisation - a worse service for a higher cost!
Hiring a contractor to perform a task is not privitisation: it's outsourcing. It also does not automatically result in lower costs. The contractor has to be able to achieve economies of scale that you can't. Thus our township hires contractors for road construction but has a full-time employee for routine maintainence.

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Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Re:Shhhhh by SimonTheSoundMan · 2010-09-12 02:43 · Score: 1

I also want to state, £48 million is not all of it.
The new IT system cost £140 million, as of November 2008. The system has been slammed many times. I still have to wait three months to be paid from the date I send them an invoice, and when Voyager was launched, council staff couldn't buy anything for months.
Follow the link for more:
http://www.birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-news/2008/11/03/birmingham-s-voyager-computer-fiasco-slammed-in-report-65233-22174870/
Re:Shhhhh by commodore64_love · 2010-09-12 02:56 · Score: 1

>>>"Technical Support: Your ignorance is my job security"
That's also the motto at retail stores. "You buy this new $2000 TV, and it will open up a whole new world of entertainment for you! Plus I can give this free credit card so it's like you're getting it for free!"
"Really?" asks the idiot customer. "No, no not really. I'm lying because that's what I'm paid to do. BTW want an extended warranty that isn't worth the paper it's printed on, but nets me an extra 5 dollars in my paycheck?" "SURE!" "Sucker....."
.

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:Shhhhh by Culture20 · 2010-09-12 04:28 · Score: 1

Or they foresaw a slashdotting and planned for 6 9's.
Re:Shhhhh by Evil+Shabazz · 2010-09-12 04:37 · Score: 1

Oblig?

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Down with the career politician! SUPPORT TERM LIMITS
Re:Shhhhh by commodore64_love · 2010-09-12 04:38 · Score: 1

I know I'll probably get modded troll or "get off my lawn old timer", but is it really necessary to have such complicated websites? I remember when most 90s-era sites were only 1-2 pages long worth of HTML (see the wayback archive). True they didn't have "ooo wow" animations or context-changing menus, but they still worked. They still got the job done (passing information to the viewer). Not only does a simple website load faster, but costs less to create and maintain.
"Simplify; simplify." - Thoreau

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:Shhhhh by 16K+Ram+Pack · 2010-09-12 06:08 · Score: 1

How the hell does any IT system cost £140m? Are they hiring Jonathon Ive to do their screen designs, or the Woz to write their code?
You can hire project managers for like £600-700/day (tops), architects for £500/day (tops) and developers for £300/day. How do you get from that to £140 million? That's like 1000 man years of software development effort.
Re:Shhhhh by flappinbooger · 2010-09-12 06:57 · Score: 1

I have a T-shirt from think geek that sums it up:
"Technical Support: Your ignorance is my job security"
I wonder if this is the employee uniform at Capita?
Sometimes I get concerned that if too many people switched to linux or used sandboxed web browsers or began to use noscript or actually used antivirus or updated their windows that I'd lose revenue in the computer support field.

Then I meet some users that are so stunningly ignorant I'm not sure how they operate doorknobs. Then, my faith is restored that I will become increasingly relied upon to help the helpless with technology for years to come.

There is a technological divide out there, the geeks who take tech in stride, and the people who get a glazed look when they hear words like "megabytes" or "Ethernet". And I think it's getting worse.

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Flappinbooger isn't my real name
Re:Shhhhh by leenks · 2010-09-12 09:36 · Score: 1

Hardware costs and software licences, as well as soft costs such as network infrastructure costs (bandwidth, pipes etc) and travel. And then you have to add on the costs of hiring people from London, and the extra mark up of getting people through a company such as Capita.
Re:Shhhhh by lonecrow · 2010-09-12 16:08 · Score: 1

No it's this kind of nonsense that enriches some sleazy MBA who overcharges for bad solutions.

Please don't malign the majority of us honest operators by implying that all IT is just a massive rip-off as this likely is.
Re:Shhhhh by initialE · 2010-09-12 16:31 · Score: 1

Isn't there some kind of protection clause against those who bid low, such as a ceiling or price cap for going over budget? In the industry I work there are clearly defined deliverables, and also clearly defined financial penalties not for going over budget - the contractor takes the loss for those, but for not delivering in a timely manner. Such practices go a long way in producing a streamlined and disciplined project that can be brought to completion.

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Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
Re:Shhhhh by xaxa · 2010-09-12 21:37 · Score: 1

What would cost even less is some "big government", with some planning and software development on a national level (or on a local level, but allowing the software to be used by anyone).
There are 152 principal authorities in England (e.g. Birmingham City Council), and they all have pretty much the same information on their websites (e.g. a Google search for 'recycling' throws up many of these sites. They do all need to exist -- recycling methods vary depending on the area.).
There are another 26 principal authorities in Northern Ireland, 32 in Scotland and 22 in Wales, which have the same requirements, except the site needing to be available in Gaelic or Welsh in a few areas (I'd guess less than 30).
Re:Shhhhh by xaxa · 2010-09-12 21:57 · Score: 1

Using contractors full-time is essentially privatisation, and it's unfortunately quite common here in public sector IT in the UK. Often the contract goes to one of the big outsourcing companies, when a smaller group could do as good (or better) a job. (Example -- some geeks made a cycle route planning website with a small amount of funding (£6000) from their local government, which uses OpenStreetMap and covers the whole UK. The government later spent £2.4M on a cycle journey planner that covers only a few areas, and is shit (IME) in the areas it does cover.)
I work full time in the public sector (and I'm employed directly), so I have better job security but a lower salary than the contractors here (those that are left, anyway...).
Amusingly, the latest information we have from the government is that our data must be shared on data.gov.uk. It must also be sold/licensed as much as possible (and not given away!) to help our finances.
(I fully support most government data being freely available -- statistics and map data etc. It's not worth much/anything, and people can do interesting things with it [like add the list of council-installed bike racks to the bike map, or use police statistics to mark the dangerous roads]. But the government should really decide if this includes our scientific research source data -- if it does, that's fine, but we'll need lots more funding from government to make up for what we can no longer sell, and to make available the data no one's really interested in.)
Re:Shhhhh by commodore64_love · 2010-09-13 02:53 · Score: 1

I used to work for "big government".
In theory centralization makes sense, but in practice it's white collar welfare. Half my coworkers (including me) sat around surfing the web all day. I went to my boss and asked for some work and he said he doesn't have any. "So why did you hire 4 engineers instead of, say, just 1?" "I had a million dollars to spend and didn't want to hand it back to Congress at the end of the year, so I hired you guys."
Three hip-hip-hoorays for the inefficiency of big government.

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:Shhhhh by CAIMLAS · 2010-09-13 03:15 · Score: 1

How could that much be considered "the lowest bid"?
Give one guy 6 months and 500k (100k less than the apparent bid), and I'm sure he'd have it done and in budget. WTF.

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~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers

efficiently... by garyisabusyguy · 2010-09-11 18:26 · Score: 1

filling their pockets, you gotta admire the chutzpah of the people who would actually get away with charging that sort of money

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Wherever You Go, There You Are

Re:efficiently... by 1+a+bee · 2010-09-11 18:38 · Score: 2, Informative

filling their pockets, you gotta admire the chutzpah of the people who would actually get away with charging that sort of money
Apparently this same chutzpah caused the story to break in the first place. FTA:

Capita, a London based outsourcing company state on their website: To date we’ve invested £48.4m in a combination of staff training, network upgrades, server replacements, hardware and software – and we continue to drive efficiency through innovation.
Re:efficiently... by Shadow+of+Eternity · 2010-09-11 19:16 · Score: 1

They aren't lying though, they do drive efficiency... right through the floor. And I'm pretty sure that it really does take a pretting innovative mind to find new ways to piss 48 million pounds up a single pole.

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A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
Re:efficiently... by oldmac31310 · 2010-09-11 21:47 · Score: 1

just why is chutzpah such a popular word in England in the past few years? Awful word. Can't stand it. What ever happened to good old fashioned balls, bottle etc.? F@#k even cojones would be better.

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http://www.acetonestudio.com
Re:efficiently... by TheRaven64 · 2010-09-11 22:20 · Score: 4, Funny

Probably because Yiddish is the best human language for expressing outrage. It even passes German in the ability to combine insulting someone with spitting on them.

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I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Re:efficiently... by biryokumaru · 2010-09-12 01:09 · Score: 1

That must be why, historically speaking, the Jewish people have always been so popular...

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When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!

bad story by teknopurge · 2010-09-11 18:28 · Score: 4, Informative

The summary is disingenuous: the cost is for their IT, not just a single HTML website.

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Website Hosting

Re:bad story by buswolley · 2010-09-11 18:30 · Score: 1

Most likely it is city intranet, and IT services.

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A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.
Re:bad story by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-11 18:34 · Score: 5, Informative

not only that, but the 48m is the amount the outsourcer has spent on improvements to their entire operation, not how much the council has spent.
The whole article is at best, poorly informed, at worst, outright lies.
Re:bad story by GiveBenADollar · 2010-09-11 18:37 · Score: 1

References! If you don't have them, then we have to take the article as valid.

"To date we’ve invested £48.4m in a combination of staff training, network upgrades, server replacements, hardware and software – and we continue to drive efficiency through innovation"
This could mean anything. Also if it is all the IT services for the city council, does that make it much better? Look at the website yourself!
http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/
Re:bad story by jginspace · 2010-09-11 18:57 · Score: 4, Informative

The summary is disingenuous: the cost is for their IT, not just a single HTML website.
Could be:
http://www.capita.co.uk/about-us/Pages/Birmingham.aspx
Service Birmingham is our joint venture with Birmingham City Council, Europe's largest local authority, established in April 2006 to provide the Council's information and communications technology (ICT) services. Substantial investment and innovation have created an all-new platform that underpins the Council's ambitious business transformation programme. To date we've invested £48.4m in a combination of staff training, network upgrades, server replacements, hardware and software - and we continue to drive efficiency through innovation.
The cost of the site itself was covered a few months back - excellent reporting from Heather Brooke and friends:
http://podnosh.com/blog/2010/05/27/the-report-on-birmingham-gov-uk-is-published/
http://helpmeinvestigate.com/investigations/49-when-can-we-expect-a-new-birmingham-gov-website
Re:bad story by jginspace · 2010-09-11 19:26 · Score: 1

the 48m is the amount the outsourcer has spent on improvements to their entire operation
It's the amount that Service Birmingham has spent - Service Birmingham is a joint venture between Capita (see summary) and Birmingham City Council. See my reply to GP for link.
Re:bad story by mabinogi · 2010-09-11 20:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

If you're taking the article at face value, then you should take the fact that the 48.4m is the money to date Capita have invested in something as the truth.
The article is just a bunch of big sounding unrelated numbers thrown together to effect a sense of outrage.

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Advanced users are users too!
Re:bad story by jonbryce · 2010-09-11 23:59 · Score: 1

I'm pretty sure Hertforshire, Surrey, Lancashire, Hampshire, Essex, Kent and the Greater London Authority are larger than Birmingham, and that's before I start looking across the Channel.
Re:bad story by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-12 00:16 · Score: 1, Informative

"Largest local authority", county councils aren't comparable as each district within them has its own council authority.
London, for instance, is split into 32 boroughs. There is no subdivision of the Birmingham area by even-more-local-councils. Like it or not that claim of theirs is true.
Re:bad story by SimonTheSoundMan · 2010-09-12 02:29 · Score: 1

Birmingham has the largest local authority, both in terms of population and workers. West Midlands is also split in to Dudley, Wolverhampton, Sandwell, Walsall, Solihull and Coventry councils. They are not small councils by any imagination either. You could also include Staffordshire and Warwickshire as they are within the same conurbation, just not in the same county.
Re:bad story by jonbryce · 2010-09-12 11:38 · Score: 1

There are some parish councils in Birmingham. Do they not count?

Alternative ... by jginspace · 2010-09-11 18:32 · Score: 1

Definitely issues - see 3rd and 5th results on Google for "Birmingham City Council website":
http://steflewandowski.com/2009/09/why-build-a-new-site-for-birmingham-city-council/
http://www.bccdiy.com/
And their page won't open for me - I've got a slightly misbehaving proxy server here

I just took a look at their site by Urd.Yggdrasil · 2010-09-11 18:32 · Score: 5, Funny

I just took a look at their site, which I thought must be amazing for that kind of money, and I found this: What exactly Birmingham City Council up to!? Perhaps the money is going someplace a bit more nefarious.

Re:I just took a look at their site by mjwalshe · 2010-09-11 22:41 · Score: 2, Insightful

that's an old name for the geo tags - you muppet,
Re:I just took a look at their site by lenroc · 2010-09-12 02:45 · Score: 2, Funny

I just took a look at their site, which I thought must be amazing for that kind of money, and I found this: <meta name="ICBM" content="52.48002, -1.902805"> What exactly Birmingham City Council up to!? Perhaps the money is going someplace a bit more nefarious.
According to Google, that's Birmingham Town Hall!
Perhaps that's part of Capita's plan to ensure payment in full...

You Fail It by RAMMS+EIN · 2010-09-11 18:33 · Score: 1

'To date we've invested £48.4m in a combination of staff training, network upgrades, server replacements, hardware and software - and we continue to drive efficiency through innovation.'

You fail it.

I'm sorry.

There is just no excuse, no making this better.

Try again next life.

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Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.

Glad to work in IT by kainosnous · 2010-09-11 18:39 · Score: 1

This kind of thing makes me happy to do IT work. In an economy where people can't afford the basic necessities, they still seem to be willing to spend money on technology. As I see it, there are a few reasons for this. First, websites, computers, and the like can be seen as giving an advantage which can be helpful in tough times. Also , it's one of the improvements to a business that at the moment doesn't have huge government price tags and red tape. That is, until the EPA decides that servers cause dangerous emissions. Of course, the most important things is that computers and technology are still cool and people will always want the latest new toy.

I see this as yet another bubble, and I plan to hold on until it bursts. I'll fight against the government spending money on such wasteful things all day. However, I plan to be there to catch the profits as they fall down.

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There are 10 commandments: 01)Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God 10)Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Matt22:34-40

Re:Glad to work in IT by DigiShaman · 2010-09-11 20:21 · Score: 1

Small and medium business I do work for are not spending on upgrades. It's all break/fix replacement. It's getting so bad for some, they won't even upgrade their backup software and hardware requirements. If only they can keep limping along for another year they say...
A storm is brewing. The handwriting is on the wall. I predict an increase in stories posted on Slashdot about how many companies have suffered data loss from the recession.

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Life is not for the lazy.
Re:Glad to work in IT by jimicus · 2010-09-11 21:39 · Score: 1

Small and medium business I do work for are not spending on upgrades. It's all break/fix replacement. It's getting so bad for some, they won't even upgrade their backup software and hardware requirements. If only they can keep limping along for another year they say...
A storm is brewing. The handwriting is on the wall. I predict an increase in stories posted on Slashdot about how many companies have suffered data loss from the recession.
This might actually be a good thing, particularly if it hits the mainstream press. A few big articles about how "Company X has gone into administration following a huge systems failure" might drive a bit more investment in IT.
Re:Glad to work in IT by bjourne · 2010-09-12 02:40 · Score: 1

Sounds like an excellent plan!

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Football Odds

Malware Warning... by Frosty+Piss · 2010-09-11 18:40 · Score: 1

The website at steflewandowski.com contains elements from the site inlovebot.com, which appears to host malware - software that can hurt your computer or otherwise operate without your consent. Just visiting a site that contains malware can infect your computer.

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If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.

Re:Malware Warning... by jginspace · 2010-09-11 18:45 · Score: 1

Could you be more specific? I've done a view source and checked NoScript and RequestPolicy - nothing there.
Re:Malware Warning... by Runaway1956 · 2010-09-11 19:38 · Score: 1

Advisory provided by Google Safe Browsing Diagnostic page for steflewandowski.com/2009 What is the current listing status for steflewandowski.com/2009? This site is not currently listed as suspicious. What happened when Google visited this site? Of the 1 pages we tested on the site over the past 90 days, 0 page(s) resulted in malicious software being downloaded and installed without user consent. The last time Google visited this site was on 2010-07-23, and suspicious content was never found on this site within the past 90 days. This site was hosted on 1 network(s) including AS10532 (RACKSPACE). Has this site acted as an intermediary resulting in further distribution of malware? Over the past 90 days, steflewandowski.com/2009 did not appear to function as an intermediary for the infection of any sites. Has this site hosted malware? No, this site has not hosted malicious software over the past 90 days. Next steps: * Return to the previous page. * If you are the owner of this web site, you can request a review of your site using Google Webmaster Tools. More information about the review process is available in Google's Webmaster Help Center. Just turn off safe browsing, unless you're on Windows.

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"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Re:Malware Warning... by kill-1 · 2010-09-12 02:14 · Score: 1

http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=steflewandowski.com

ICBM Address by jginspace · 2010-09-11 18:42 · Score: 4, Informative

Yes you're definitely on to something:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICBM_address

Re:ICBM Address by mrmeval · 2010-09-11 19:22 · Score: 1

Google now does this in real time. 38.8911 -77.0106

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I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
Re:ICBM Address by initialE · 2010-09-12 16:33 · Score: 1

They're obviously being so kind as to assist us in nuking the site from orbit.

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Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.

Re:At least they didn't use frontpage by CdBee · 2010-09-11 18:50 · Score: 5, Funny

We're dealing with Brummies here, lets not pretend that spelling is the most important problem they face.... Vuuurrrrrrrrry noyce....

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I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU

I'm going to call BS on this article. by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-11 19:02 · Score: 5, Informative

The 48 million number? Is taken out of context from a company's own website. Context that is lacking is timeframe, actual details of the spending...and you know what, that's enough that I don't feel like going any further.

These numbers may be facts, but they aren't a story. They're just being used to drive emotions.

I say we mod Article Down.

Re:I'm going to call BS on this article. by damburger · 2010-09-11 20:28 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yeah, this sounds like the kind of crap normally put out by right-wing think tanks to soften up the populace for brutal cuts to public services. Fact is, Birminghams a big city and its IT services are bound to be costly simply due to scale. The deficit hawks always exploit this fact to come up with big, scary sounding numbers to show government 'waste'. After all, which sounds worse, "Government spends £1 billion on X" or "Government spends £16 per person on X"? Both of course mathematically equivalent.
Massaging the numbers doesn't hurt either. Chav-baiter Jeremy Kyle recently whined in The Sun about there being a £192 billion welfare bill and then starts complaining about people without jobs basically being subhuman - as if the entire £192 billion were spent on jobseekers allowance - the reality is that only £2.9 billion is spent on it, and the vast majority of that bill goes to supporting children, people on state pensions, and the disabled. But don't let facts get in the way of scapegoating the unemployed, Kyle.
There is only one source of our current financial woes, and it lives in the City of London. Right-wing think tanks are constantly putting out this bullshit as a misdirection technique. The bankers want us to blame some defenceless underclass instead of marching on their bonus-bought mansions with torches and pitchforks...

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If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
Re:I'm going to call BS on this article. by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-11 21:22 · Score: 1, Interesting

There has been a noticeable rise in the number of pro-Conservative Party articles on Slashdot. They're almost exclusively some whine that makes government stupid or the Labour Party look bad. Maybe it's some politically active nerd ego, or part of an organised campaign. I don't know but this run of articles looks more than a bit fishy to me.
I'm long-term unemployed and on sick pay. Yes, I'm one of those "lifestyle scroungers" the Chancellor of the Exchequer likes to slag off. He has one of the most powerful jobs in the country and an inheritor to a fortune while I'm effectively unemployable and the sort of job I could or want to do is unavailable because people with the power and money to create them spend that investment wealth on flash cars. I daresay spending £20 a month on the internet (which is my major source of entertainment and window on the world) is an example of me being on the gravy train but I'm acutely aware of the things I can't do and the life opportunities I've missed out and am missing out on.
People rolled over and passively took these bastards ideologically driven fantasies in the ass the last time around but I'm hoping this time is different. And this time I don't want to see Labour just use the poor as a passport to power and screw us the other way. This time there have to be a list of demands and real and meaningful consequences to them not being delivered. I'm fed up with this kick the victim routine. People have the power to end it.
I obviously have to be careful what I'm saying for legal reasons but if the Toffs have their flash cars and big houses targeted, and some fat cat banker gets stabbed in the street I'm not going to get in anyone's way.
Re:I'm going to call BS on this article. by cyber-vandal · 2010-09-11 21:44 · Score: 1

It does surprise me (although it shouldn't) that the blame for our current deficit woes has suddenly fallen on benefit scroungers, immigrants and the "dreadfully wasteful" public sector, instead of the previous administration having to spend huge sums bailing out a bunch of greedy fools in the banking sector. Those greedy fools of course are quite happily carrying on as before without any restrictions or complications.
Re:I'm going to call BS on this article. by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-11 22:31 · Score: 2, Insightful

I obviously have to be careful what I'm saying for legal reasons but if the Toffs have their flash cars and big houses targeted, and some fat cat banker gets stabbed in the street I'm not going to get in anyone's way.
Yes Comrade, fight the power! I haven't worked to earn any of those things either, but damnit I can express outrage towards the people who have! Life isn't fair, so let's hurt other people! Wooo!
Re:I'm going to call BS on this article. by jonbryce · 2010-09-12 00:05 · Score: 1

The ongoing deficit has nothing to do with the bankers. We spent a few trillion pounds bailing out the banks a couple of years ago, but nothing this year. This year 25p out of every £ our government spends is borrowed, and none of that is going to the banks. It is going on other things.
Re:I'm going to call BS on this article. by Anne+Thwacks · 2010-09-12 00:08 · Score: 2, Informative

The Labour Party manages to look worse than bad without any help from others.
In fact, the Labour party could not look other than bad: Old labour still believes Marxist economic theory is correct - despite the fact that it was proven stupid in theory and practice, while new labour: Blair was secretly negotiating with Mugabe!
There are NO redeeming features of Labour whatever.
However, if the bankers' "derivatives" ponzi scheme is not stopped soon, even the rich will be in the same situation as flooded Pakistanis.

--
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
Re:I'm going to call BS on this article. by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-12 00:14 · Score: 1, Insightful

Yes Comrade, fight the power!
Ahhh, your comment starts with a veiled dig, trying to insinuate that the parent is some kind of communist.
<meme type="phone message reference">The 50s called, and they want their propaganda back.</meme>
There is no reason why anyone of even moderate intellect would find your accusation offensive, and the fact that you even reach for that tool speaks volumes about your thought processes, and how they have been influenced and polarised.
Once people are polarised, they are much easier to control. Ever heard of divide and rule?

I haven't worked to earn any of those things either,
You think most rich (and I mean really rich) have actually worked for what they have? Hahahaha, don't be fucking stupid. The rich are only rich due to the existence of poor - rich and poor are relative terms, after all. The mega rich are in positions where they can effect everyone else's wealth, and most of the time when people are critical of the rich they are being critical of the ruling elite, not directly their middle-class lap dogs.
Though of course the uber-rich of today wouldn't be where they are if it weren't for a middle class willing to do much of the dirty work in keeping the poor poor.
And if you think many rich have worked to get where they are, that shows your ignorance of how capitalism works. Once you control enough capital and means of production, you can't fail to make more money. The system works like this by design[1], so that a few will always be at the top. The system is balance between peace and revolution, and middle class wealth is the key. If the middle class are comfortable, but the poorest not, you just get riots. If the middle class and poorest are uncomfortable, then you get revolution, and that effects the top.

but damnit I can express outrage towards the people who have!
Yeap, freedom of speech.
I hate to just hide behind that banner - that's a technique the BNP use to just spout venom. When asked to explain their attitudes, they hide behind "freedom of speech" and say they don't have to explain. Perhaps it is just more like really they can't explain, because their venom is based on poor logic, and they know it?
There are plenty of valid discussions around though about rich and poor, and everything in between. I know I am not good at presenting them, but at least I know the world isn't what is presented to me by the billionaires and banks that actually own or control most of the media.
It is also easy to slump into just following conspiracy theories - but they work like religions, so are best avoided: Some super-human-like character is pulling strings, and because we can't see them, they must exist.

Life isn't fair, so let's hurt other people! Wooo!
Sounds like the politics an policies practised by the very same rich people you are defending.
But what your parent was saying, in case you did miss it by mistake or ignorance, and aren't trolling by misinterpretation, is that he wouldn't stand up for a banker being knifed. I personally would (until I felt that I was at more of a risk than the first person being attacked) as even bankers are human beings.
I'd almost like to prevent a stabbing outside a bank - as once the stabber has run off no doubt the banker would stop to say thanks. I'd take the opportunity to explain that what they do is no better than the guy with the knife, and due to their shocked state they might actually take it to heart.
Or perhaps I'm not jaded enough yet by humanity, to think that someone who works for a bank could see the parallels with a knifing?
[1] Is this me slumping into a conspiracy theory? Maybe. I do feel societies evolve much like species, so saying design is easy. Just view the word design as a metaphor for the coming together of a bunch of things I know I don't fully understand - human psychology, economics, sociology, etc..
Re:I'm going to call BS on this article. by Doug+Neal · 2010-09-12 01:11 · Score: 1

I obviously have to be careful what I'm saying for legal reasons but if the Toffs have their flash cars and big houses targeted, and some fat cat banker gets stabbed in the street I'm not going to get in anyone's way.
Yes Comrade, fight the power! I haven't worked to earn any of those things either, but damnit I can express outrage towards the people who have! Life isn't fair, so let's hurt other people! Wooo!
You honestly think peoples' wealth is directly proportional to how hard they work? The world isn't that simple. Social injustice is all around us, it's an entirely reasonable thing to be outraged about.
Re:I'm going to call BS on this article. by Leperous · 2010-09-12 06:50 · Score: 1

Obviously you are not familiar with Capita's reputation for "mis-managing" (read: excessively profiting) government projects. http://davespartblog.blogspot.com/2006/03/why-it-gets-called-crapita_21.html
Re:I'm going to call BS on this article. by petit_robert · 2010-09-12 15:37 · Score: 1

> It is going on other things.
A rapidly growing portion is used to pay the interest on existing debt. And these interests accumulate in accounts that are very well shielded from taxes, which of course will in turn increase the deficits.

Re:Mercenary by Dan541 · 2010-09-11 19:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yep.

--
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"

Re:bad story - I must agree by Elvis77 · 2010-09-11 19:29 · Score: 3, Informative

I love a "The Government are Idiots" story as good as anyone but this one just doesn't make sense. Last year the Birmingham Post (http://www.birminghampost.net/news/politics-news/2009/08/04/cost-of-new-birmingham-city-council-website-spirals-to-2-8m-65233-24307674/) stuck it to the council over a 383% growth in the cost of the website... it went from £580,000 to £2.8m. Where does the £48.4m come from? It comes from Capita's case study which IS NOT about the web site (http://www.capita.co.uk/about-us/Pages/Birmingham.aspx) Birmingham Council may or may not be doing the smart thing and Capita might be ripping off the good people of Birmingham... if it's like City Councils where I live then they are probably screwing up badly but this article is a load of crap

--

The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed (SK)

Re:bad story - I must agree by julesh · 2010-09-11 19:40 · Score: 4, Informative

Capita might be ripping off the good people of Birmingham

Crapita never do anything without ripping off good people. Here in Coventry, they've installed voice stress analysis software to attempt to detect people lying when they claim benefits... of course the fact that VSA is essentially snake oil hasn't stopped them spending millions on the piece of software this paper was written about. Well worth reading if you want to know the kind of junk our councils spend our hard earned cash on.

Re:At least they didn't use frontpage by Jstlook · 2010-09-11 19:41 · Score: 1

I think all the money went to the white lines addiction of there HTML editor.

I don't know about that. Their editors clearly haven't been taking advantage of too much white powder, or they would have gotten to your quote already!

--
---jstlook ---For that is the way of Elves, for they say both yes AND no, and mean every word of it. --- J.R.R.T.

Re:48 million pounds / population 1 million by Concerned+Onlooker · 2010-09-11 19:44 · Score: 3, Funny

Probably. I don't think a subscription weighs that much.

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http://www.rootstrikers.org/

Re:Runs on Oracle stuff by julesh · 2010-09-11 19:53 · Score: 1

The Oracle licenses (and support/consulting) aren't exactly cheap

Yes, you're right. The £1600 for Oracle Webcenter, plus presumably £650 for Oracle Enterprise Database Server and around £600 per annum for the support contracts are really going to be problems here. Hell, we can probably double those figures because they'll need a development server as well.

Re:Runs on Oracle stuff by Hymer · 2010-09-11 20:10 · Score: 3, Interesting

...plus presumably £650 for Oracle Enterprise Database Server...
I would like to know where you are buying your Oracle licenses 'cause I'm paying something like £20000 anually for my Enterprise license (for a quad core, single socket server)

Re:Runs on Oracle stuff by MichaelSmith · 2010-09-11 20:26 · Score: 2, Funny

...plus presumably £650 for Oracle Enterprise Database Server...

I would like to know where you are buying your Oracle licenses 'cause I'm paying something like £20000 anually for my Enterprise license (for a quad core, single socket server)

650 BGP must be to run on a 386.

--
http://michaelsmith.id.au

Not convinced of their maths or fact checking.. by moreati · 2010-09-11 21:07 · Score: 1

To reiterate my comment at TFA, that they're no doubt going to approve.

I would like to know how you arrived at your headline - £32000/day for the Birmingham City Council website?

Your quote "To date we've invested £48.4m ..." from http://www.capita.co.uk/about-us/Pages/Birmingham.aspx gives a figure spent by Service Birmingham (£48.4 million), and that page states SB were "established in April 2006 to provide the Council’s information and communications
technology (ICT) services". That's 1596 days ago assuming 2006-4-30 to 2010-9-12. Dividing one by the other gives £30325/day, I presume you performed a similar division to reach £32000/day. However I cannot see how you conclude that the £48.4 million was spent entirely on the BCC website, and hence justify your headline.

To declare my interests I worked at Service Birmingham - the Capita/Birmingham City Council joint venture - until Jan 2010. Except for about 5 days as a testing volunteer I did not work on the CMS for birmingham.gov.uk. I have no financial interest in SB or Capita, but I do pay council tax to BCC. I await your answer.

Sincerely, Alex Willmer

As a resident of Birmingham... by greg_robson · 2010-09-11 21:08 · Score: 5, Informative

...I can say that we all waited ages for the site to relaunch, when it finally did we are shocked.

Poor accessibility, basically the same content under a different template. It took them 2 months to get the "Pay your Council Tax online" feature working again.
There was no consultation with the target audience (Birmingham City Council covers approximately 1.2 million people).
All the features we were expected such as here's my postcode...
- ...where's my nearest school/doctor"
- ...who's my Member of Parliament
- ...when do my bins (trash cans for those across the pond) get collected.
...were nowhere to be seen despite being common on many other council websites.

So bad is the situation, some local web developers have set up their own community built site:
http://www.bccdiy.com/
And while still in it's early days (design could be improved), it has the useful features and shows events that are taking place in what is a vibrant and modern city.

Re:As a resident of Birmingham... by SimonTheSoundMan · 2010-09-11 21:40 · Score: 1

Cheers Greg, you hit some of the problems there. I have mod points but I have already posted.
Re:As a resident of Birmingham... by mutube · 2010-09-11 22:58 · Score: 1

It's funny you mention the bin collection information as I was going to make a comment here to that effect. I have moved from one area of Birmingham to a nearby one and went to the site to find out the local bin collection times. It went something like this...
Find my local area page on the site
Local services
Refuse collection
This does not tell me anything about local refuse collection but instead lists general information about what the council will collect and their 'priorities'
Follow a small link to local collection times
Enter my postcode (forget that I got to this page via a page about my local area)
I can't even remember if I got what I was looking for.
There are so many pages of text that serve no purpose other than to fill up a page that someone has decided should be in there. People go to a council website for very few and very specific reasons - the content and navigation of the site should reflect that. It reminds me of the xkcd comic with the university homepage content - what people are looking for vs. what is available.
Thanks for the link to the community site it'll be a useful first stop in future.

--
Python coder | PyQt Applications | Writer

Re:32k per day only? Meh, amateurs by SimonTheSoundMan · 2010-09-11 21:32 · Score: 1

Well, Capita spent more than twice that on the Birmingham City Council web site, and thy still have contracts both with this council, and many other councils and government departments.

Re:At least they didn't use frontpage by TheRaven64 · 2010-09-11 22:21 · Score: 1

They know that the server will be using compression, so it won't waste much bandwidth, but every single client will have to burn CPU cycles decompressing it. And they own shares in the electricity companies...

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I am TheRaven on Soylent News

Re:bad story - I must agree by TheRaven64 · 2010-09-11 22:23 · Score: 4, Funny

Crapita never do anything without ripping off good people

That's not fair. They do not practice any such discrimination, they're happy to rip off anyone - good or bad.

--
I am TheRaven on Soylent News

Private sector screwing over people again... by fantomas · 2010-09-11 23:34 · Score: 1

That'll be the invisible hand of the market pickpocketing the public purse again. Who loses? the people who live in these towns.

I wonder if this is going like the last time we had the Tories (right wing conservative party) in power? Lot of noise from politicians to privatise everything, juicy contracts issued, happy business leaders, 4 years down the line MPs (members of parliament) retire and get offered non-executive directorships in said companies (nominal one day a week jobs and a few million quid for doing so).

Re:Private sector screwing over people again... by 16K+Ram+Pack · 2010-09-12 05:50 · Score: 1

That'll be the invisible hand of the market pickpocketing the public purse again
But this isn't "the market". It's government choosing a supplier on behalf of the people. Which is often catastrophic (the people spending the money don't care how it's spent because it's not their own money), but it isn't the market.

Re:32k per day only? Meh, amateurs by jonbryce · 2010-09-12 00:01 · Score: 1

That would be the equivalent of just the "Council and Democracy" section of the Birmingham City Council website.

Council "Website" haha by Asahi+Super+Dry · 2010-09-12 00:26 · Score: 1

So by "funding the website" they mean "funding the prodigious cocaine habits of council members?"

Re:bad story - I must agree by linzeal · 2010-09-12 00:39 · Score: 1

Maybe they should use it on themselves.

--
An Education is the Font of All Liberty

First word... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-12 01:01 · Score: 1, Funny

First word in the "Service Menu" is Waste.

It runs on the most expensive software by devent · 2010-09-12 01:33 · Score: 2, Informative

No wonder it's so expensive, it runs on the most expensive software out there. Windows Server 2003 and Oracle-Application-Server-10g/10.1.3.0.0 Oracle-HTTP-Server. . But the side is all wrong in FF3. The menu is in the middle of the side and the content is under the menu blob. Maybe next time they just using a Linux server with a custom Drupal or Wordpress.

Why the government always needs a site to be build from scratch? There are 100 open source CMS systems out there, where you have a) localization, b) forum, c) uploads, d) content management, etc, etc, all already developed. Just spend £1000 on a nice theme and another £3000 on customizing it. I don't think the side will have 10,000,000 visitors per day where you need an Oracle HTTP server with an Oracle DB and a highly specialized website.

--
http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute

Re:It runs on the most expensive software by 16K+Ram+Pack · 2010-09-12 05:55 · Score: 1

Even the paid for stuff isn't that expensive. I was looking through the manual for Kentico for a client, and it's very, very nice, both from a user and a developer perspective. Software cost? £4000.
Re:It runs on the most expensive software by devent · 2010-09-12 06:46 · Score: 2, Informative

Why would you buy that? Drupal, Joomla, Wordpress, etc. are all free and you don't need to buy a Windows server to run it. They also talk you into bying MSSQL server, where just MySQL or PostgreSQL are free.

--
http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute

Waste,Incompetence,Fraud in Govt IT? Its All True by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-12 02:07 · Score: 1, Interesting

I work in IT. I used to hear about those government projects with 10-100x cost overruns and think, "those numbers can't be true". Then I spent almost 4 years consulting for various government agencies, and sadly all those stories of waste, incompetence, and flat out fraud are all true. The experience was tramautic for me. If you work in IT, are good at what you do, and take pride in doing a good job then stay the fuck away from any goverment projects.

In government IT projects you'll meet $1500/day contractors who have worked on projects for 3 or more years without delivering a single line of working code, people who have "re-written" the same system every year for 4 or more years, "managers" who surreptitiously get 10-30% kickbacks from the contractors they hire, projects that require 3 years to fix after they were "100% complete" and voted "project of the year" by the local branch of the PMI, people with "certifications" who don't have a clue, and an army of consultants who have made a career of going from failed project to failed project.

Re:Mercenary by Mitchell314 · 2010-09-12 02:14 · Score: 1

Actually, it's "Evil is okay if and only if you get paid for it."

--
I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie

oops by neorush · 2010-09-12 02:23 · Score: 1

Scratch that....its Oracle-Application-Server-10g/10.1.3.0.0 Oracle-HTTP-Server, was looking at the wrong window. Even more expensive though...

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neorush

Re:oops by John+Hasler · 2010-09-12 02:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

> ...its Oracle...
Well, that explains the cost.

--
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.

32,000k a day are they on mobile broadband with a by Joe+The+Dragon · 2010-09-12 02:30 · Score: 1

32,000k a day are they on mobile broadband with a high pre MB cost?

You realise they are just doing as asked? by Colin+Smith · 2010-09-12 03:39 · Score: 1

I mean. You think they'd go ahead and install this kind of stuff for free? No, someone in the council came to them with big budget and said we want to do "this".

If said council came to you with tens of millions and said, we want to do "this". Wouldn't you take the money?

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Deleted

Re:Runs on Oracle stuff by alex67500 · 2010-09-12 05:20 · Score: 1

650 BGP must be to run on a 386.

Surely, even on a 386, if it runs a network router, it's worth more than that...
(and who said it wasn't per day??)

Hey man, by arcite · 2010-09-12 05:56 · Score: 1

What are you, a communist?

... yes, I'm a contractor who works for the government.

France.fr light difficulties by Gestion+des+risques · 2010-09-12 05:57 · Score: 1

French newpaper "Le canard enchainé" reported lastly the real cost of France.fr web site was about € 4m, only € 1m according to french government. France.fr, whose lauching delay initially planned on july 14th was subject to controversy, is coming in a variety of 5 languages offers 3 000 pages, 12 000 links and 1 million indexed documents. It's mainly aiming at providing practical informations (tourism, employement, vie quotidienne, everydaylife, firms implantation, etc.) in France. I can hardly understand Birmingham € 48m website development and maintenance costs !

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conseil en organisation |

Re:Runs on Oracle stuff by julesh · 2010-09-12 06:20 · Score: 1

I would like to know where you are buying your Oracle licenses 'cause I'm paying something like £20000 anually for my Enterprise license (for a quad core, single socket server)

I've never bought an Oracle product, but correct me if this isn't a valid way of purchasing said software?

Either way, my point still stands. £20,000 is a lot less than the cost of retraining your entire development team to a new database system, so if Oracle is what you're familiar with, Oracle is what you should be using. The costs virtually disappear when compared with staff costs.

Re:Runs on Oracle stuff by jeremyp · 2010-09-12 07:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

That is £637 per named user. That's great if you are the only person going to be using the application, but if that's the case, you'd probably be better off using sqlite which is £0 per named user.

On the other hand, if your application is going to be used by say 500 people in a local council, it's going to be about £30K worth of named users.

--
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe

Re:Runs on Oracle stuff by julesh · 2010-09-12 18:15 · Score: 1

What constitutes a user, though? I mean, I'm guessing if Twitter ran on Oracle they wouldn't be expecting them to pay for 100 million users.

I'm kind-of assuming that a user is anyone who connects to the service directly. Plus perhaps the person who authorizes new releases of the software that uses it. I'd say it wouldn't be hard in this circumstance to work with just 2 or 3 such users.

Re:Runs on Oracle stuff by drsmithy · 2010-09-12 18:25 · Score: 1

On the other hand, if your application is going to be used by say 500 people in a local council, it's going to be about £30K worth of named users.

I think you dropped a zero - should be £300k.

Also, don't forget the annual support, which is going to run somewhere in the ballpark of £70k/yr.

Bad Title by mjh2901 · 2010-09-13 10:06 · Score: 1

Its not just a website its a complete revamping of there entire infrastructure, network, workstation, servers, phone,s software and employee training. Plus... They are Oracle based. Of course they should be moving towards open source, lower those license costs.

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£32k a Day For Birmingham Council Website

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