You Are Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

theodp writes "Over at TechCrunch, Vivek Wadhwa offers some don't-be-a-fool-stay-in-school advice to students that sounds a bit like an old-school Mr. T PSA. TechCrunch CEO Michael Arrington's questioning of whether students need to get any degree or go to college at all may sound appealing — dropouts Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates did do alright for themselves — but Wadhwa gives some good reasons why you should probably take the school-is-for-chumps argument with a grain of salt. 'The harsh reality,' warns Wadhwa, is that for every Zuckerberg, there are a thousand who drop out of college and fail,' and many big companies won't even consider hiring you for that fallback job without a degree. And, believe it or not, you can still become a tech billionaire later in life even if you're cursed with a PhD." Tech entrepreneur Michael Robertson approaches this question slightly differently; here's an analysis he made a few years ago, with the conclusion that the college investment pays off only about half the time.

Comments

It's true

[papasui]

I'm not an unethical thief who would thinks nothing of stealing from friends.

Re:It's true

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey even Zuckerberg needed to go to school to find people to steal ideas from, right?

Re:It's true

[Dragonslicer]

Wait, are you talking about Gates or Zuckerberg?

Yes.

Re:It's true

[tomhudson]

NO, it's not. If you ask the teacher and they say okay, then it's okay. The idea is

1. since you're not a student, if you cause problems, you're a lot easier to boot out,
2. if you're auditing the class, you're probably more interested in it (and more interesting) than most of the students who are just there for the grade
3. next semester, you enroll in the class, skipp all the classes, write the exams, get your grade. Teacher is happy, school is happy, you're hapy

So no, auditing a class isn't stealing - you won't get the credit unless you pay for it.

Also, auditing a class at the same time as you're taking one of the stupid prerequisites is a good way to cut down on wasted time - just skip the prereuqisite except for the tests and coursework requirements.

Common sense

[jawtheshark]

The harsh reality is that for every Zuckerberg, there are a thousand who drop out of college and fail

When I get into discussions about this topic with (young) people and they think they can play the "Bill Gates" trump card (For some odd reason, they think I should admire the man since I'm "into computers"), this is exactly what I tell them. It's just plain common sense.

If you can't or won't get a college degree, go into plumbing, carpenting or another trade. They are highly undervalued "socially", but I know many of those who make much more money than I do with my computer science degree and cushy admin job. Of course, you won't get "rich" in the "rockstar rich" sense, but if the goal is to make a good living, those jobs are very good choices.

Re:Common sense

[Kethinov]

When I get into discussions about this topic with (young) people and they think they can play the "Bill Gates" trump card (For some odd reason, they think I should admire the man since I'm "into computers"), this is exactly what I tell them. It's just plain common sense.

You don't have to be a beat-the-odds tech celebrity to do well without a college education. When I interview people, their academic degrees play little to no role in my hiring decision. My primary considerations are their portfolio of work (professional or otherwise), how well they can demonstrate their skills during the interview, and how well I believe they would integrate with the team.

Re:Common sense

[Aladrin]

Actually, as either, you -can- make hundreds of dollars per hour. Most don't, though. Discussing what you can make is pointless. Find some statistics about how much the average person makes and that's a lot more meaningful.

Re:Common sense

[ezzzD55J]

if you wanna get that tough, talk median, not mean ;)

Re:Common sense

[h4rm0ny]

The thing is, it's true that getting a degree is not the only route to getting somewhere, but it's a route to getting somewhere. So if you have a great business idea or a fantastic job opening available, by all means compare your options and judge accordingly. But don't do nothing and pretend to yourself that by not going to University you're automatically taking another route to success. All you're doing is giving up one route. You still need to find something else to do instead and unless you're Bill Gates or Richard Branson, maybe you wont.

Know how to make money without a degree? Go do it. Sitting on your arse thinking a degree isn't vital to success so by not going to University you'll be a success? Bad logic.

Re:Common sense

[couchslug]

The electrician has a portable skill that CAN'T BE OUTSOURCED, is convertible to similar skills with minimum training, and complements other trade skills.

You can barter skills with other tradeshumans to enhance your living space, shop, or trade for vehicle work/parts. Plenty of opportunity to human network for side money.

You can be self-contained, with all your gear fitting in a truck or trailer.

Electricians are like auto mechanics. They may not get rich, but I've not seen one starve.

Re:Common sense

[aurispector]

Meh, that's just splitting hairs. How many IT people are getting outsourced to India? Vs. how many plumbers? Perhaps job security is less important these days than career security.

The big issue here is entrepreneurship - having an idea and turning it into a successful business. People seriously underestimate the value of entrepreneurship. Formal education is, well, too formal to foster a can-do sense of entrepreneurship. It's too much about connecting the dots, painting by numbers, checking off the boxes, following a previously existing program structure. It's the difference between doing what someone else is telling you to do versus forging your own path.

Starting and running a business, especially in a new field, requires an unusual amount of initiative and savvy. I can't think of any PhD program that's designed to foster entrepreneurship and initiative. You don't even need to be an innovator - it's about DRIVE. Gates never really innovated, at best he just used existing ideas, but he saw how things could be molded into a successful business.

Smart people are more likely than stupid people to earn a degree, land a job, start a business, recognize an opportunity. But regardless of intelligence, if you just sit there waiting for opportunity to fall into your lap you're going to be waiting a long time.

Re:Common sense

[hairyfeet]

But you are missing the most important ingredient....being a ruthless bastard. What do Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg have in common? Being ruthless bastards. Jobs screwed Woz out of money back when they were selling to Atari, and to this day has no problem dropping his lawyer army and those that piss him off, Gates played nice with both Jobs and IBM until he could get what he wanted from them then fucked them over with Windows, as well as ripping off Spyglass for IE, and of course Zuckerberg and his infamous "dumb fucks" screwing his friends privacy.

So I'd say if you are really gonna shoot for being a Gates or Jobs you have to not only have a sense of entrepreneurship, but also being willing to fuck over your own momma to get ahead. It is being a truly ruthless bastard that makes the great ones, because as Jack Tramiel said "Business is war".

Re:Common sense

[Surt]

Plumbers and electricians struggle to find 40 hours of work per week where I live. I was curious about how their incomes compared to mine, and the last couple guys I worked with said they typically had about 25 billable hours of work in 50 hours on the job. The rest was driving from place to place and other forms of non-billable time. So $100/hr for actual work doesn't translate into the same salary as someone who is paid that rate for a 40/hr job.

I used to get paid 65/hr as a software contractor. But I billed 60 hours a week. Care to guess who made more that year, me or the $100/hr plumber?

Re:Common sense

[phantomfive]

But you are missing the most important ingredient....being a ruthless bastard.

I'm pretty sure that's not the most important ingredient. If that were the most important ingredient, I know a lot of people who would be rich right now. It only seems common in famous rich people because it's common in everybody. A lot of homeless people will steal a dollar from their mate, too.

Cause and Effect

[lacoronus]

These dropouts dropped out because they were wildly successful. They didn't become wildly successful by dropping out.

Re:Cause and Effect

[HungryHobo]

This is probably the best summary.

If you've gone and already set up a company and are already quite profitable dropping out *at that point* to put more time and effort into making the business more successful can be fine.
You learn most of the useful stuff in the first year or 2 of any CS degree anyway.

Dropping out of college because "sure bill gates did ok" when you don't have any business or anything to build on isn't such a good idea.

Oversaturated degree market

[ZigiSamblak]

There's only so many jobs for people with degrees. I dropped out of a multimedia design course over ten years ago. Then got into various jobs and ended up doing advanced technical support at a big company after 5 years of working there. A friend who had not dropped out after the first year and completed the degree could not find any steady employement in the designer field and ironically ended up doing lower paid technical support work through an outsourcing partner of the same company.

In the past when less people went on to college a degree was more valuable and basically meant a well paid job for life, but the market has changed and many more people are getting degrees. It pays more to carefully consider your options, getting work experience may be better than years of study in many cases.

Re:Oversaturated degree market

[Junta]

Saturation has devalued the prospects of a degree, but not having a degree is in no way an advantage over having a degree. While a degree is further away from guaranteeing a job, not having a degree will guarantee that you cannot get certain jobs.

College investment

[Zouden]

college investment pays off only about half the time.

Making it better than many other investments today.

Harsher Reality

[jaypifer]

'The harsh reality,' warns Wadhwa, is that for every Zuckerberg, there are a thousand who drop out of college and fail,'

The harsher reality is that there is another thousand that finishes college and still fails.

Plus parents

[Anonymous Coward]

Gates is not a success from the gutter, his family was already loaded and well educated. Likewise with a lot of these successful "college dropouts". The reality is by being raised by well educated and financially sound people, you already have a big advantage, let alone when it comes to making early deals using the extended family network. Family networks work so well, you can be a military deserter and still become the president of a large and power country.

Ideals and reality

[erroneus]

Ideally, if you work hard, you will succeed. In reality, if you work hard, it will likely be for SOMEONE ELSE who will use your hard work for their success. This is why your boss drives a better car than you and has a bigger house while you do all the work.

This is a simplistic picture but generally accurate.

So what did we learn from this? If you want to "succeed" (whatever that means) then you have to be more like the people who are already succeeding. If you wish to study, then study those people and do what they have done. And if your conscience gets in your way, then you have two choices -- listen or don't listen. It's a decision you will have to live with either way.

The things Bill Gates has done to the whole world are impressive by any definition. Some people would have a hard time doing that due to issues of conscience while others would have no problems at all. These others are classically identified as sociopaths. Statistics have born out that the most powerful people on the planet are sociopaths as they are willing to do what most people are not, for reasons of conscience. But fear not! There may be some hope for you.

If you are one of those people who believe "if you are too stupid, ignorant or otherwise don't know what I know, then you deserve whatever happens to you" then you are already well on your way to being a sociopath. I know first hand, that there are a lot of people here on Slashdot who feel that way. (I'm sorry, but if you didn't know that truckload of explosives was heading your way while you were sleeping in your home, then you deserve whatever happens to you!)

Personally, I decided long ago, I don't have what it takes to do what "successful" people do... or, as I see it, I have what stops me from doing what it takes. (I can't knowingly make people miserable and call it "just business" as many others seem to be able to do.) I have accepted it and I will just keep working every day, try to save some money and hope I die before I retire.

Re:Ideals and reality

[bfields]

"What modern-day success exists today did so without screwing over a bunch of people in the process?"

Most of the people I know?

Unless you have some bizarre definition of success that doesn't include making a living, doing quality work, contributing to a community, raising healty children, doing things you enjoy, learning about things that interest you....

Define "fail"

[betterunixthanunix]

Since when is "not being a billionaire" the definition of "failure?"

Trust fund baby

[AnonymousClown]

Gates had a million dollar trust fund - he's a trust fund baby.

Therefore, he could take obscene amounts of risk and never have to worry about ending up in the gutter or having bill collectors after him. And if you add in that his Dad is a high powered attorney ...

Gates was a perfect storm of trust fund, brains, timing, and ambition.

Re:Trust fund baby

[SomeKDEUser]

And luck. Never forget luck.

I am sad for all those people who live in a determinist universe where all that happens to you can be explained by hard work and ambition, modulated by the amount of money you started with.

Fact, sometimes things happen to you, good and bad. Fact, these sometimes cannot be offset by any amount of brains and work.

Which is why a civilised society recognises that and helps out those people that ran into an unexpected and impossible to plan for problem. Which is why also, the richer and more advanced society is, the more taxed should be extracted, because a more complex society means also that many more things can go awry, and need to be planned for collectively -- and because more taxes do not affect your lifestyle after you are rich enough.

People saying "this is my money", "I refuse to pay for someone else lifestyle choice", "I provide for my family, why can't they?", are a problem, because they think that given the same circumstances another Bill Gates would happen. Therefore, they think that is they play their cards just right, they will become rich. And if they do become rich (this happens), they think it is purely due to them -- refusing even to acknowledge the importance of living in a society whose infrastructure allowed it. And if they become a significant minority, they will eventually destroy society.

Re:There is a link however...

[zolltron]

University is a waste of money for most people who go

I hate these sorts of claims because they are absolute nonsense. How can you know if my university degree was a waste of money for me? Do you know how much I value the things I learned (both in and out of the classroom) at the university? No, of course not, because you don't know me. It's like looking at someone you've never met and saying that they were stupid to go eat at some particular restaurant.

Usually, these sort of studies assume that the only reason anyone would go to college is to improve their lifetime earning potential and then compare the average change in earning to the cost of the university. While this is an important consideration, it shouldn't be the prevailing one, and more importantly it shouldn't be translated into the only potential thing of value that might come out of a university education. We are all not mindless money generating machines that simply wish to take the quickest route to a buck. Some of us want to enjoy the journey too.

I am a far better person for my university education. Even if it cost me money in the long run, I'm happy I went.

Re:Don't bother with college

[hedwards]

Actually, that's a real problem. Blanket encouragement to everybody to go to college was a big mistake. There's a fair number of people who would be both happier and better off if instead of going to college they picked up an apprenticeship or got a certification of some sort. It's a complete waste of resources to have individuals with a PhD serving coffee at the local coffee shop or waiting tables.