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You Are Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School
theodp writes "Over at TechCrunch, Vivek Wadhwa offers some don't-be-a-fool-stay-in-school advice to students that sounds a bit like an old-school Mr. T PSA. TechCrunch CEO Michael Arrington's questioning of whether students need to get any degree or go to college at all may sound appealing — dropouts Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates did do alright for themselves — but Wadhwa gives some good reasons why you should probably take the school-is-for-chumps argument with a grain of salt. 'The harsh reality,' warns Wadhwa, is that for every Zuckerberg, there are a thousand who drop out of college and fail,' and many big companies won't even consider hiring you for that fallback job without a degree. And, believe it or not, you can still become a tech billionaire later in life even if you're cursed with a PhD." Tech entrepreneur Michael Robertson approaches this question slightly differently; here's an analysis he made a few years ago, with the conclusion that the college investment pays off only about half the time.
I'm not an unethical thief who would thinks nothing of stealing from friends.
When I get into discussions about this topic with (young) people and they think they can play the "Bill Gates" trump card (For some odd reason, they think I should admire the man since I'm "into computers"), this is exactly what I tell them. It's just plain common sense.
If you can't or won't get a college degree, go into plumbing, carpenting or another trade. They are highly undervalued "socially", but I know many of those who make much more money than I do with my computer science degree and cushy admin job. Of course, you won't get "rich" in the "rockstar rich" sense, but if the goal is to make a good living, those jobs are very good choices.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
These dropouts dropped out because they were wildly successful. They didn't become wildly successful by dropping out.
There's only so many jobs for people with degrees. I dropped out of a multimedia design course over ten years ago. Then got into various jobs and ended up doing advanced technical support at a big company after 5 years of working there. A friend who had not dropped out after the first year and completed the degree could not find any steady employement in the designer field and ironically ended up doing lower paid technical support work through an outsourcing partner of the same company.
In the past when less people went on to college a degree was more valuable and basically meant a well paid job for life, but the market has changed and many more people are getting degrees. It pays more to carefully consider your options, getting work experience may be better than years of study in many cases.
Making it better than many other investments today.
"A week in the lab saves an hour in the library"
The harsher reality is that there is another thousand that finishes college and still fails.
Never go to sea with two chronometers; take one or three.
Between successful entrepreneurs and people who never went to university at all. For instance, I founded my own business when I was 19, now paying myself a decent wage off it 4 years later - and I would say most of the business owners I know didn't go to university. In fact, three of them, including my uncle (now a millionaire) are ex-cons...but maybe that indicates a different correlation...
I understand that this may well not be the norm - but I have seen many separate studies that indicate both of the following statements to be true:
a) University is a waste of money for most people who go
b) Not going to university will seriously limit your earning potential
I guess the truth is probably somewhere in the middle...
Gates is not a success from the gutter, his family was already loaded and well educated. Likewise with a lot of these successful "college dropouts". The reality is by being raised by well educated and financially sound people, you already have a big advantage, let alone when it comes to making early deals using the extended family network. Family networks work so well, you can be a military deserter and still become the president of a large and power country.
If by "stay in school" they mean "stay in public school," then I'm going to have to decline their offer. Public schools are absolute trash. Too many useless classes (as in, something that some people may use, but others won't, due to their career choices) are mandatory, and they put far too much emphasis on worthless grades. It wouldn't be so bad if public schools merely granted you the resources needed to memorize information that will be important to you, provided a good teacher to help you when needed, and provide a useful curriculum. Right now, they're highly inefficient, and you run the risk of failing an entire year simply because you did poorly in a class you won't even need! Education is, of course, important. But until public schooling gets its act together and goes through total reform, I'm going to recommend that people find other means of educating themselves (self teaching, homeschooling).
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
You don't need a college education, if you follow the 10,000 hour rule.
I assume you are referring to the idea that it takes 10,000 hours to become a true expert at something. The problem is that in many cases it is irrelevant whether you are an expert or not. What matters is whether there is evidence you are at least competent.
Most people do not end up being tech entrepreneurs, in the same way they don't become international spies for MI6 or top-flight football players. Most people will need to get a normal job somewhere and if you are looking for a reasonably good job, a degree or professional qualification is necessary, either because it is required in the field (eg accountancy, engineering) or because HR will use "has a degree" as a criteria to screen out half the applicants. Now is it possible that one of the people without a degree is actually the cleverest, most hard-working applicant? Yes. But the company is not prepared to quadruple its job candidate search time and costs on the off-chance that an unlikely candidate on paper may be a hidden star in practice.
In general ./ tends to idolize geniuses who single-handedly revolutionize the world through the sheer force of their intellect. That's fine, but genius doesn't scale. The things that can be done by genius alone are limited. To operate on a large scale to provide the goods and services that society wants takes organization and bureaucracy. It's less romantic, but that's the way it is. Negotiating that bureaucracy is just part of life, and today this means a college degree is needed.
Ideally, if you work hard, you will succeed. In reality, if you work hard, it will likely be for SOMEONE ELSE who will use your hard work for their success. This is why your boss drives a better car than you and has a bigger house while you do all the work.
This is a simplistic picture but generally accurate.
So what did we learn from this? If you want to "succeed" (whatever that means) then you have to be more like the people who are already succeeding. If you wish to study, then study those people and do what they have done. And if your conscience gets in your way, then you have two choices -- listen or don't listen. It's a decision you will have to live with either way.
The things Bill Gates has done to the whole world are impressive by any definition. Some people would have a hard time doing that due to issues of conscience while others would have no problems at all. These others are classically identified as sociopaths. Statistics have born out that the most powerful people on the planet are sociopaths as they are willing to do what most people are not, for reasons of conscience. But fear not! There may be some hope for you.
If you are one of those people who believe "if you are too stupid, ignorant or otherwise don't know what I know, then you deserve whatever happens to you" then you are already well on your way to being a sociopath. I know first hand, that there are a lot of people here on Slashdot who feel that way. (I'm sorry, but if you didn't know that truckload of explosives was heading your way while you were sleeping in your home, then you deserve whatever happens to you!)
Personally, I decided long ago, I don't have what it takes to do what "successful" people do... or, as I see it, I have what stops me from doing what it takes. (I can't knowingly make people miserable and call it "just business" as many others seem to be able to do.) I have accepted it and I will just keep working every day, try to save some money and hope I die before I retire.
So from this limited sampling of two, we can conclude that dropouts do alright for themselves, but only by screwing everyone else over?
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
The program I teach in usually has 100% of the graduates employed within six months of graduating. It takes three years. We're a community college so the tuition is quite low. Many of the students live at home with their parents, so they have cheap living expenses.
The bottom line is that, for some college programs, the investment is pretty safe and pays off.
Remember that the statistics for lifetime earnings take into account the History and English PhDs serving coffee at Starbucks. If you get a good job, your results are much better than average.
I know, in the 21st century, everyone is supposed to be some sort of businessman, and we are supposed to seek returns on anything we spend money on. Really though, people (in theory) go to college to be educated, not just to get vocational training. If you want vocational training -- and there is nothing wrong with that -- then you should go to a trade school, get a 2 year degree, and wind up with the same job you would have had if you spent four years getting a bachelor's.
The sooner the "college is an investment" crowd gets out of our universities, the better.
Palm trees and 8
Since when is "not being a billionaire" the definition of "failure?"
Palm trees and 8
I would also like to see the comparison in lifestyles of the 999 that dropped out and failed to the 1 that stayed in college and failed. For some reason I think those definitions of failed aren't the same.
Rich parents helped Bill Gates more than college. Colour me unsurprised. If someone wants to be like Bill Gates and drop out and be successful, then they should first arrange to have billionaire parents.
This can be somewhat difficult to do, since adoption is rather a buyers' market at that level...
Young people don't be fooled by the Education Lobby! I too started by business when I was 19 and quitted my first degree due to lack of time to do both Degree and Business. Later I took my degree on a fast track. But it's a bad a idea, it's a wast of money and TIME (very valuable). I would be much richer today If I just skiped university altogether. University degrees are for stupid people who can't study on their own. What you need is to read books (according to your specific needs) on your own.
First, I want to see *some* sort of check and balance on college expenses. Every examination of college prices over the past 30 years has shown horribly high growth relative to earning. Most things I read agree the problem was good intentions, making loans for education extremely safe, but has lead to colleges taking the blank checks, running up expenses through the roof, and the payback protections to lenders turning graduates practically into indentured servants, unable to escape that creditor no matter how little they have and even bankruptcy not being a way out. The answer is not insanely easy loans, there has got to be a better way.
In terms of going with what's there, start with a community college. It's a total waste to piss away more money on the basics in the first two years of college. After a couple of years, go to a state college with a good co-op/intern program. Use the co-op program, do not simply take the classes and get out, get some professional experience on your resume and subsidize the extra cost of state college with your pay.
Do *not* get too hung up on the prestige of one school versus another. At least when I look at resumes, professional experience matters most, low GPA can give me concerns, and which school figures prominently in the don't care area. One exception being I laugh at people with 'bachelor's' degrees from ripoff places like devry, phoenix, etc. I'd personally rather have someone without a degree than a sucker who fell for those places. However, I'm not allowed to entertain people without 4 year degrees by company policy, so unfortunately your chances of dropping out and making it within the rules of established company is nearly zero. All the examples of rich dropouts are those who were never 'hired' by anyone, but sold product and services directly to people who only look at the quality of the product and promise, not at their resume.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Therefore, he could take obscene amounts of risk and never have to worry about ending up in the gutter or having bill collectors after him. And if you add in that his Dad is a high powered attorney ...
Gates was a perfect storm of trust fund, brains, timing, and ambition.
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
It is a safety net which makes sense, really in the grande scale of things and extra year in college should make little difference, it is such a small proportion of our lives. I learnt more in my first year in the real world than the 4 I spent in higher education.
a degree or professional qualification is necessary, either because it is required in the field (eg accountancy, engineering)
Right now accountants, especially new graduates, are also having a really hard time. A LOT of folks saw that as a safe way to make a decent living and jumped on the bandwagon - now there's a glut. It may not last because everything runs in cycles, but don't forget, accounting can be offshored just as easily as programming.
It's the same for engineering.
Nursing: with this economy, many folks are jumping in because it's a "safe" job now BUT there will be a glut and employment will get bad - I don't care what the predictions say about population aging and whatnot. Talk to a nurse who's been in the field for at least 25 years and ask her about the late 80s - layoffs of nurses. Granted, if you were a laid off nurse, you weren't out of work for too long but....
There is also a trend to bring nurses from overseas. I know a nurse who works with many many foreign nurses. Add in the nurses that the military is training and I see employment problems down the road. Nurses don't have an organization like the AMA that's great at "discouraging" foreigners from coming over here.
My point, don't jump into a field because it looks like a shoe in for employment now - things change.
Just ask everyone who got CS degrees in the 90s or those of us who've hit 40 hoping to have their lifetime employment at 6 figures.
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
Bill Gates is not a good example of the typical young person who drops out of college and strikes it rich. His family was upper middle class and had enough money to send him to a prestigious college prep school. You can bet that before he earned any money on his own, his computer interests were heavily subsidized by his family. He certainly got a head start in life that few of his generation never had. I'll bet that parental support was worth quite a few years of college.
Zoho also does not need any bachelor degree programmers. Zoho prefers to hire right out of high school.
I think college degrees are only worthwhile for jobs that actually require the degree: doctors, nurses, lawyers, etc.
I consider my own degrees (math, business, and comp. sci.) to be a complete waste of time, money, and effort.
Here's the Zoho stroy:
http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/07/01/208222/Zoho-Dont-Need-No-Stinking-PhD-Programmers?from=rss
The harshest reality is that the jobs are leaving.
The jobs of the CEO and his/her pals will be staying, of course.
A university degree won't make you less expendable to a corpocracy that wants the cheapest workers. Unless you are willing to cost the same to the employer at 35 as you did at 25 (and use your benefits as little), your days are numbered.
Code Poet, Rockstar Programmer, Unit-Test Guru, Meme Zealot, Jedi Knight of the Latest Methodology, or (what is likeliest) red-tunicked member of the Roddenberry Landing Crew or Storm Trooper cannon-fodder, the real masters of this game are the Bean Counters.
The corpocracy has docile subjects. It has seen that it can lay people off without having to report it (IBM -- for years), take huge local tax breaks (which your family and community paid for) and then ship jobs overseas, and claim to be "a good citizen" while loudly claiming there are "insufficient numbers of skilled workers".
Of course, you can take the Blue Pill and go back to your pasting your face into pictures of Gates and Zuckerberg. (o:
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
I didn't spend a minute in college. I became a computer consultant right out of high school at 17, started my own consulting company at 20, sold it at 25 and started working for corporate America.
Since then, I've risen to the highest ranks of IT (including CTO of a mid-sized publicly traded company).
In my experience, smarts coupled with people skills and a strong work ethic will open just about any door for you regardless of degree or lack thereof. One of the biggest problems I see though are people generally overestimating their "smarts". Generally I think if you are not widely considered very intelligent by everyone you regularly interact with, including those people that don't necessarily care for you, then you are probably better off getting a degree.
I'm a big tall mofo.
Actually, that's a real problem. Blanket encouragement to everybody to go to college was a big mistake. There's a fair number of people who would be both happier and better off if instead of going to college they picked up an apprenticeship or got a certification of some sort. It's a complete waste of resources to have individuals with a PhD serving coffee at the local coffee shop or waiting tables.
I dropped out of college. Then after a short job, I found it quite getting a job that I thought that I was qualified for. Then a few years later, I went back to college to finish my degree in Computer Science.
However, I did find that retaking courses at college was more difficult than the first time. Because the course schedule had changed, some courses I needed to take were at the same time as others, or changed to another semester. Therefore, I could not not complete my degree in the same amount of time than I would otherwise have done.
After college, I found that the time gap was a big mark on my resume. I was dismissed as many times in the first iteration as when before I had gone back to college.
There is also a lot of ageism. At least over here in Sweden, most recruiters want people who are ideally no older than 25, with a completed degree and exactly three years of experience, so that the company can put the guy to work directly, make work long hours, easily mold in the company's way of doing things ... and pay a lower wage.
If you are over 30 and do not have much commercial work experience in the field, then you are practically no longer wanted. Even people over 40 with 15 years of work experience in IT are having problems finding work.
"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
"And, believe it or not, you can still become a tech billionaire later in life even if you're cursed with a PhD." But if you're cursed with a PhD, you're probably also cursed with student debt and years of lost earnings. That makes it harder to get seed money to start up an enterprise.
"Tech entrepreneur Michael Robertson approaches this question slightly differently; here's an analysis he made a few years ago, with the conclusion that the college investment pays off only about half the time."
Robertson compares income for high school versus college graduates, and concludes that a better payoff would come from taking college tuition and investing in stocks (historical ~7% payoff versus 4% public college and 2% private). However, this overlooks things like the amount of effort put in to make that income.
Take my case as an example: With my Master's degree I can teach college part time, make about the U.S. median income on 10 hours of work/week or so, live in New York, and devote most of my time to artistic pursuits. So my income doesn't look much higher, but it's because I've decided that I'm happy with a given level of income, and having satisfied that, don't need to work any more.
Some data to flesh this out: Robertson concludes, over 40 years, graduates of high school make $1.2M, public college $1.8M [http://michaelrobertson.com/archive.php?minute_id=226]. U.S. Census bureau reports hours worked per day: graduate of high school 7.86, college 7.42 [http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0625.xls]. So median hourly salary is something like (assume 250 days worked per year) high school $15.30, college $24.11.
U.S. median income is approximately $21,587/year [http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html]. How much do you have to work per year to make that level of income (assume 8 hour days, 5 days/week)? High school graduates 1,411 hours = 176 days = 35 weeks. College graduates 875 hours = 112 days = 22 weeks. The difference would be more stark if I had data on actual days worked per year (i.e., vacation time, etc.)
I agree that income payoff is one factor that people should look at when considering college (along with things like self-fulfillment, reward of intellectual pursuits, networking potential, etc.) At some hyper-inflated level it definitely wouldn't be worth the risk, but I'm doubtful we're at that point yet. Perhaps more a important gauge is overall quality-of-life or satisfaction level (mine, for example, being exponentially higher than if I hadn't gone to college, even though my total income might actually be less).
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes