EVs In the Spotlight At West Coast Green Conference

DeviceGuru writes "Electric vehicles were prominent among the 'hot products' showcased at West Coast Green in San Francisco this week. The event's product expo featured an assortment of preproduction units, prototypes, and concept models based on two-, three-, and four-wheel designs, along with several of the vehicles' creators. Specifically, the EVs and plug-in hybrids that participated in the show included Wheego's Whip, Saba's Carbon Zero Roadster, Green Lite's three-wheeled plug-in hybrid, Brammo's all-electric Enertia motorcycle, and Mitsubishi's i-MiEV EV, which PG&E is evaluating for some unstated purpose. Notably absent were Nissan's LEAF, Chevy's Volt, Toyota's Prius Plug-in, and Tesla's sexy Roadster, though in fairness the conference wasn't an actual auto show. So how many Slashdot readers plan to switch over to a plug-in EV in the next few years?"

Comments

Nope

[i-c-electrons]

I'm tired of hearing about electric/hybrid vehicles. Give me something that goes the same distance of a tank of gas, reduce the price of these machines, and then give me a call.

Re:Nope

[PatPending]

Not now, not ever. FTW! Gimme fuel, gimme fire, gimme that which I desire!

Re:Nope

[cfriedt]

&& >= 60 km/h.

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[mr100percent]

How about Better Place? The creator had a prominent TED speech. Fills up faster than a regular car, and cheaper to own. The only issue is that they plan on charging by the mile, but insist it's still cheaper than your gas guzzler.

Re:Nope

[gmuslera]

So the problem is cost/autonomy instead of being electric/hybrid? I would add easy/fast recharging everywhere, and then we could have an alternative. But while those cars cost several times what cost normal ones will more toys for the rich than something that could make a difference because most willl have one.

Re:Nope

[pavon]

Give me something that goes the same distance of a tank of gas

I've heard that several times and it doesn't make any sense to me. If I am driving around town, I only need to fill up once every week, at most. If I can charge my car at home, I really don't need it to last an entire week. A little margin is required, in case I forget to plug it in one night, or decide to run extra errands, and accounting for diminished battery capacity over the life of the vehicle. Three days of driving is fine, which for most people is 90-150 miles. The Nissan Leaf can do that now. Some people have longer commutes, so that could be increased a bit, but I don't think the average commuter needs the 300-400 miles that a normal car can get on a tank if you can fill up at home.

On the other hand, if I am going out of town, there are very few places I can go on a single tank of gas. Even if there were charging stations available everywhere, the amount of time it takes to charge is unpractical for long drives. I would want to to hold a full day's drive, at least 1000 miles, and confidence that there would be a somewhere to charge where I slept, before I considered using a pure electric for out of town trips.

I don't see much added value in increasing the range over ~200 miles, unless you are surpassing ~1000.

Re:Nope

[ls671]

Well, also, don't forget that the impact of EVs on the environment hasn't been fully evaluated yet IMHO.

I might switch some day. I may also skip a few releases wait until the product is stable enough to upgrade to a new version ;-)

Re:Nope

[PopeRatzo]

Give me something that goes the same distance of a tank of gas, reduce the price of these machines, and then give me a call.

And give me a million dollars, world peace, and a comfy pair of shoes or don't even bother.

Tell you what, junior. Why don't you give me a call when gas is six bucks a gallon?

Can you imagine if Thomas Edison had been working on the light bulb and this guy would have said, "Whaddya mean I need a cord? My candle doesn't need a cord. You can keep your stupid electric light until you don't need a cord.

Sport, that's just not how progress happens.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course Edison didn't say that. He said "hey this dude Swanson has something that I can make a ton of money off, so I guess I'll just steal it".

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[phantomcircuit]

Can you imagine if Thomas Edison had been working on the light bulb and this guy would have said, "Whaddya mean I need a cord? My candle doesn't need a cord. You can keep your stupid electric light until you don't need a cord.

He would have had to ask Tesla nicely?

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[morgan_greywolf]

Double that and you got a deal.

Re:Nope

[nadaou]

and no one will until those rich people subsidize production for long enough for the makers to figure out how to get the mass production costs down and the endurance up. think strategic. think long term. go rich people go!

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[cgenman]

While the cost of electrics may not be plummeting quickly, the cost of Gas keeps going ever higher as our supplies dwindle. At some point, the cost of running a gas car will overtake the higher initial cost of electrics even if they don't manage to get the initial cost of electrics down.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see much added value in increasing the range over ~200 miles

Hope you never have to drive anywhere over 100 miles away. You will never be able to return home.

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[nospam007]

A small baggage trailer with a Honda Generator should do the trick for long drives.

Perhaps we could rent them by the day, good for 1000 miles or so.

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[nospam007]

"Why don't you give me a call when gas is six bucks a gallon?"

Rrrrrring! It's more than that on the gas-station I can see from here. (Europe)

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[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could just buy a better gas car for a hell of a lot less and fill up in 5 minutes at a gas station.

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[hitmark]

Embed solar panels in the road surface and we can have potentially unlimited range.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you give me a call when gas is six bucks a gallon?

In Europe gas is over 9 bucks a gallon since forever, and nobody is in need of electric cars.

Re:Nope

[Greyfox]

We could just put induction plating under all the roads in the USA! Sure it'd be expensive, but after that your car would only ever need to run on battery power if you go onto a road that doesn't transmit electricity up to the car! Which would be fewer and fewer places as time went on! Plus, think of the jobs it'd create! Sure there are a few technical details, but those just exist to be worked out!

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[0123456]

In Europe gas is over 9 bucks a gallon since forever, and nobody is in need of electric cars.

Yeah, gas was around $10 a gallon in the UK when I emigrated... it may well be more now. Of course British electrical generating capacity is about to collapse as they haven't even started to build the large number of plants required to replace those that will be shut down in the next few years, so buying an electric car there would be insane.

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[0123456]

While the cost of electrics may not be plummeting quickly, the cost of Gas keeps going ever higher as our supplies dwindle.

We were paying nearly $1.50 a liter last year and have been paying about $0.90 a liter this year. In which universe is that 'keeping going ever higher'?

Our Civic cost about half of what a Volt is predicted to cost, and gets 30-45 miles per Canadian gallon. You'd need to drive a heck of a lot of miles, or see massive increases in the price of gas, to make up for the difference in price between the two.

Re:Nope

[__aagmrb7289]

People are mis-identifying their concerns, in my opinion. The average consumer is concerned about getting stranded because their vehicle runs out of fuel. In a gasoline powered fuel, you walk to the nearest gas station, fill up a container with gas, walk it back to your car, and you are good to go. If we could come up with a similar mechanism for an electric car, and help people feel comfortable that the need to employ it would be rare, then the concern would be mostly gone. I think the best suggestion I've seen so far is make sure the batteries used are modular, and easy to replace. If you run out of power, you can go grab a single replacement, which would get you to the station, where you could swap out the rest. That deals with the recharge rate - and might even be faster than refilling with gasoline, if it could be done correctly. The problem with that line of thought is that battery technology, and electric car technology - is not yet at a point where it is "good enough". And any educated market analyst will tell you that modularity in a market where the product isn't yet "good enough" will not compete well against integrated and proprietary product stacks that can be tweaked and changed more quickly in response to technological changes.

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[Duradin]

I hope you meant mph.

I know SI units are all the rage, but you have to remember to change the numbers when you change the units. 60 km/h is all of 36mph.

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[khallow]

I've heard that several times and it doesn't make any sense to me.

Even the "average commuter" usually drives some distance on occasion. For example, I currently don't drive to work at all (happen to be in easy walking distance of where I work), but when I do drive, it's generally over 500 miles (my trips have been 700-1500 miles and I do maybe four or so of them per year). A car that requires a recharge every 150 miles is a no go for me. Even if I do transition to a typical commuter profile, I still am going to be very reluctant to maintain two cars (one for commuting and one for traveling) when all I really need is one car which has typical endurance (300-400 miles between refuel/recharge).

Re:Nope

[blueg3]

It's called distrusting anything that's not similar to what you're used to, and there's substantial historical precedent for it.

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[cgenman]

The concept behind peak oil is that there is a fixed amount of stuff in the ground, and we're depleting it at increasing rates. At some point between now and 2030 production will start decreasing, as the wells we can reach will be depleted.

Of course, there are lots of artificial factors in the market. OPEC shot the cost of gas through the roof in the 70's, and market manipulations helped drive gas up during the collapse of 2008. But as a force like entropy, supplies will peak and recede in our short-term lifetime.

Re:Nope

[dbIII]

That very common view is what makes me think re-chargeable electric vehicles are most suitable for what they were actually doing in New York around a century ago. Taxis are not going to go 1000 miles from their home base.
Someone's bound to bring up the energy thing, but it's pointless in most cases because electric cars are really about shifting the pollution out of crowded cities.

Re:Nope

[Dachannien]

I just want a plug-in hybrid that doesn't look dumb. For some reason, nobody wants to make one of these vehicles that looks like a normal car.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone makes this argument, and I still don't buy it. The idea that a short-range car is worthless just because everyone has to occasionally make longer trips is just stupid.

Consider: I drive a mid-size sedan. There are several things that I occasionally need to do for which my car just won't cut it. Sometimes I need a vehicle with extra cargo room, or room for more passengers; sometimes I need a vehicle that can handle rough roads. But there are lots of options when I need to do something like that; for instance, I can rent or borrow another vehicle. It would be really dumb on my part to buy a vehicle that is sub-optimal for ninety percent or more of my normal use just to make the remaining ten percent of my use easier.

Same goes for short-range cars. If they become popular, and have significant advantages over current technology, people are going to have to make adjustments. Maybe it will become the norm to rent a gas-guzzler when you need to take a long trip. Some people will continue to stick with the old technology because they either really need a longer range every day, or they're too stuck in their ways to change. But once there are enough advantages to this technology, people will switch and will adjust to using it.

This generation of the technology isn't quite there yet. But I rather suspect that the next generation will be to the point where a typical consumer will start considering the switch.

Re:Nope

[synthesizerpatel]

Mod parent up +5 funny!

You really do manage to capture the apathy and ignorance about our energy use from the 'average joe' point of view.

The idea that what we're doing now will continue to scale and that we shouldn't change any of our behaviors to lower our impact cracks me up every time.

Kudos on your satire!

Re:Nope

[arkane1234]

yeah seriously. I can get that today with a toyota corolla, easy.

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[arkane1234]

It's okay, he must be European. That would be 6 countries away.

Re:Nope

[arkane1234]

So... people should have specialized vehicles?
You have one of two choices.. either get a vehicle that fits your needs, or change your needs.
That's in a nutshell.

Re:Nope

[R3d M3rcury]

[...] when I do drive, it's generally over 500 miles (my trips have been 700-1500 miles and I do maybe four or so of them per year [...] Even if I do transition to a typical commuter profile, I still am going to be very reluctant to maintain two cars (one for commuting and one for traveling) when all I really need is one car which has typical endurance (300-400 miles between refuel/recharge).

Two words: Rental Car.

You have the electric for most of your driving. When you need a car for some kind of distance, rent one. Especially if you're doing it only four times per year.

I like to do bike rides in my area. I'll rent a minivan for a day once a month, since I have a little sports car that won't fit a bicycle. It costs me around $50. That's cheaper than a car payment on a second car.

Re:Nope

[arkane1234]

yep, just like telsa said 'that dude Franklin had something I can make a ton of money off, so I guess I'll just steal it and try to do things that movies will be written about in the future with!" and failed miserably ;)

Re:Nope

[arkane1234]

Yeah, we're talking about some place that measures in gallons.
If you don't measure in gallons, 9 times out of 10 it's not about you.

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[arkane1234]

Everyone is in need of electric cars. It's not the price, it's the pollution factor.
Let's not think 'me me me' for a moment.

Re:Nope

[arkane1234]

We haven't reached the point of being able to collect that large of a supply of electricity from the sun, yet.
A car is only so big.

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[arkane1234]

I know, seriously. They either have to make a dorkmobile (Prius, etc) or the usual GM & Ford.
The whole genre makes me shiver.

Re:Nope

[flaming error]

I'm tired of hearing freeloading couch potatoes sniping at innovators for not bringing them chicken cordon bleu on a silver platter. Make the damn thing yourself and then call yourself up, you demanding little prick. Or just keep your problems to yourself while you wait for other people do the work for you.

Re:Nope

[Jeremi]

The average consumer is concerned about getting stranded because their vehicle runs out of fuel.

Another possible option: call a tow truck, have the tow-truck use its engine to recharge your battery to the point where you can make it to the nearest recharge station. Not really all that different from what a lot of people would do when their gas-powered car runs out of gas.

Re:Nope

[Jeremi]

Embed solar panels in the road surface and we can have potentially unlimited range.

I think that's a great idea, but we'll also need a way to keep them clean. Getting driven on will dirty them up pretty fast, and a dirty solar panel is a solar panel that's not getting very much sunlight.

Re:Nope

[znerk]

&& >= 60 km/h.

Ignoring that 60km/h can be done on a moped, I'll assume you meant 60mph. Which, if you had done more than jump on the groupthink bandwagon, you would realize is easily doable (admittedly with "high-performance" electric vehicles, but still). Mass-production vehicles don't necessarily need to be all that speedy, although I don't think 60mph is outside the realm of "normal" unless you're some kind of anti-technology freak.

The biggest factor against electric vehicles is currently range, not speed. Tesla motors has had an electric drag racer for several years; you can easily find videos of their electric car absolutely smoking petroleum-based racers on the track. Power is actually *better* with an electric motor - the power (torque) curve is dramatically different in an electric motor as compared to a combustion engine, in that (in a basic sense) the power is all available regardless of the RPM of the motor, as opposed to a combustion engine requiring rotational energy before it can crank out decent numbers.

I've heard some absolutely ridiculous arguments against electric motor ranges, by the way - someone actually commented that traffic would obliterate the supposed fuel-efficiency numbers of any EV... without stopping to think that when the vehicle is not in motion, the motor isn't doing anything. If you are at a red light, the only things taking electrical power are your radio and the vehicle's climate-control system - unlike a combustion engine, which keeps a massive flywheel turning as long as the vehicle is "running". This can be unsettling in a hybrid; it takes some getting used to when your car appears to stall and die every time you come to a complete stop.

Energy storage technology is improving at a rapid pace, both on the size/mass end of things (how big/heavy is it), and on the capacity end of things (how long does a single charge last). A recent development in the field (were one to inquire) would be a battery that can be printed using an ink-jet printer, on normal paper (special ink, of course). This should make capacitor technology achieve things previously thought of as outside the realm of possibility, and quite soon.

On the "consumer-ready" side of the equation, a Swedish company recently received a prize for designing and building a vehicle they believe will cost approximately US$20,000 per unit for mass production. It's a 4-seater that achieves highway speeds, and it actually resembles a car (as opposed to the "concept vehicles" that have been being trumpeted as the latest and greatest but which no one in their right mind would be caught actually driving).

I don't mean to get all ad-hominem on you, but did you bother to do a simple web query before responding, or was this more of an off-the-cuff knee-jerk type of thing?

Re:Nope

[MichaelSmith]

I thought you could have a standard charging interface a bit like USB. You hook up your car and it uses a data interface to talk to the electricity provider. They exchange account details and if that works then you get charging current. Devices like this could be installed on a lot of electricity poles. Pretty much anywhere you can safely stop you could charge from the grid.

Re:Nope

[znerk]

Or you could just buy a better gas car for a hell of a lot less and fill up in 5 minutes at a gas station.

Define "better", please, because I'm not seeing any definition of "better" that fits that description. Electric vehicles have as much power as gasoline vehicles, they're much quieter, they're just as comfortable... Tell me how a loud, smelly thing is better than a quiet, clean one. Please.

Re:Nope

[znerk]

The average consumer is concerned about getting stranded because their vehicle runs out of fuel.

Another possible option: call a tow truck, have the tow-truck use its engine to recharge your battery to the point where you can make it to the nearest recharge station. Not really all that different from what a lot of people would do when their gas-powered car runs out of gas.

Alternatively, plug in a small (relatively speaking) battery pack to the cigarette lighter (what, power can only run one direction?) that will get you to the service station to charge or replace the vehicle's main battery.
It could be something about the size of the 6-volt battery you used to power your last science project; it wouldn't even need to be as large as the standard 12-volt 6-cell in gas-powered vehicles.

Re:Nope

[MichaelSmith]

Actually you know the vehicle detectors at intersections use induction. They free run at 70Khz. Now there's a thought....

Re:Nope

[znerk]

...also, don't forget that the impact of EVs on the environment hasn't been fully evaluated yet...

What is there to evaluate?

Batteries are bad for landfills, ok, yeah. Capacitors seem to be the way to go, which should minimize this, not to mention that petroleum-based vehicles create plenty of noxious things that are bad for the environment - used motor oil is a wonderful example of something we'll be ridding ourselves of by using electric vehicles instead of gas-powered ones. I'll call this one a tie.

Power plants create pollution, sure. So do refineries. So do oil spills. Seems to me that moving to cleaner electrical power is the way to go if we want to reduce the impact of power plants on the environment, and even with current technology we'll come out about even - with the new push for "greener power", this should quickly become a non-issue.

Even the usage of energy seems to be leaning in favor of electric vehicles, now. Electric vehicles aren't "running" when their motion has ceased - at a stop light, there's nothing moving except the fans in the climate control system.

Other than the factors listed above, I can't see any environmental concerns that aren't clear winners for electric vehicles. Less noise, less direct air pollution, less wasted energy... where's the downside?

To be honest, I give it less than 10 years before legislation banning the use of combustion engines is introduced - how quickly did it become illegal to "pollute" public places by smoking? Electric vehicles are quieter than combustion engine vehicles, they don't require/emit nasty fumes just by their existence (oh, you like the smell of gas, my bad); they're just better.

Re:Nope

[khallow]

It would be really dumb on my part to buy a vehicle that is sub-optimal for ninety percent or more of my normal use just to make the remaining ten percent of my use easier.

Even if we make the generous assumption that an electric vehicle is better than a gas powered car for commutes, I've already pointed out that yes, the remaining 10% of driving is important enough to me to matter. It doesn't matter if it is "really dumb" or not. That's the situation. I imagine there are a number of other "average commuters" in the same boat.

Re:Nope

[rolfwind]

The answer, of course, would have been an Aptera 2h.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_2_Series

An electric that went 100 miles or so, and later a hybrid that has the same batteries but when it ran down, a tiny gasoline motor would kick in recharging them. It's the exact same principle as diesel-electric trains that has been around since the 30s. The plus side is you can still have power (electric DC motors are potent) but you don't need a huge gasoline engine whose size is only used to 100% effect at hard acceleration (and wasting gas otherwise) and instead gear towards the lowest possible gasoline motor (smaller is much more mpg friendly) whose maximum output will roughly match the average depletion of the batteries during normal driving. Maybe a tiny fraction more.

Hell, even the really advanced big motored cars are trying to save gas by turning of cylinders (some Mercedes and Cadillacs, maybe others), why not bypass all that mechanical complexity and go with a tried and true system that worked the last 70 years for big ass trains?

Jay Leno testing the all electric Aptera just to prove it's not 100% vaporware:
http://vimeo.com/5285448

It doesn't need to be aptera only, but I think the only thing holding up the system are the weenies that think it's better to reach Utopia first (no gas instead of, say 100+ mpg) forgetting their little envirobiles will be made of plenty of lightweight plastic (petroleum).

I mean, if you really have a hard on for an electric car but need range from time to time, the only other real solution is to buy some electric car and rent a gas car when you need it.

Re:Nope

[Mashiki]

(what, power can only run one direction?)

Well...yes, at least on most modern cars unless it's a 1-2v trickle, otherwise you're likely to turn around and nuke the computer(s) from orbit, even though they're on a protected circuit. But I'm guessing you haven't seen the size of the average battery pack on a ev car. They weigh around 450lbs, and a 6v mini-cell doesn't have the amperage to get you going anywhere.

Re:Nope

[znerk]

(what, power can only run one direction?)

Well...yes, at least on most modern cars unless it's a 1-2v trickle, otherwise you're likely to turn around and nuke the computer(s) from orbit, even though they're on a protected circuit. But I'm guessing you haven't seen the size of the average battery pack on a ev car. They weigh around 450lbs, and a 6v mini-cell doesn't have the amperage to get you going anywhere.

A very good point - if, on the other hand, the vehicle is set up for it ahead of time, it wouldn't necessarily need to be on the same circuit as the onboard computer(s).

Also, the vehicle could be programmed to have a much less "aggressive" motion when running off the smaller (able to be easily carried by a single person) "emergency" battery. It doesn't need to achieve highway speeds, necessarily, just get you to the nearest service station (next exit ramp, in most interstate cases).

... and yeah, my size scale may be a bit off. My point was more that it wouldn't need to be anywhere near as large as the main battery, since it would only be used to get you off the highway and to the nearest service station; similar to how a 1-gallon gas can can get you off the side of the highway to the gas station.

Re:Nope

[Urkki]

I'm tired of hearing about electric/hybrid vehicles. Give me something that goes the same distance of a tank of gas, reduce the price of these machines, and then give me a call.

Nah. They'll just raise the price of gas until you'll change your mind. Once you can only afford to fill your tank half full, range of EVs doesn't feel so bad any more.

Re:Nope

[Kijori]

Surely what he's proposing is getting a vehicle that fits your needs? If you spend 50 weeks of the year using your car to commute, to drive to the shops and to drive your kids to sports practice, and 2 weeks of the year driving long distances for a holiday, doesn't it fit your needs better to have a car that will make 95% of your driving cheaper, more environmentally friendly and less prone to breakdowns, and then rent a vehicle for the occasional long-distance journey?

Re:Nope

[drinkypoo]

Give me something that goes the same distance of a tank of gas

I don't see much added value in increasing the range over ~200 miles, unless you are surpassing ~1000.

Contradictory statements; most vehicles have a tank that only allows them to go a little over 200 miles in typical driving. It's rare to have both a large tank and good mileage like my MBZ 300SD which can go well over 400 miles on one fill.

Re:Nope

[drinkypoo]

To be honest, I give it less than 10 years before legislation banning the use of combustion engines is introduced

It's not impossible that sale of new combustion-powered vehicles to normal consumers will be banned within twenty years, but nothing important happens in ten years, and battery technology is not even vaguely close to providing enough power for commercial vehicles like 18 wheelers.

Electric vehicles are quieter than combustion engine vehicles, they don't require/emit nasty fumes just by their existence (oh, you like the smell of gas, my bad); they're just better.

They continue to have inferior range and refueling time, and as such, are not a fit for everything. Most home with multiple vehicles could replace one with an EV, though, and that could make a gigantic difference.

Re:Nope

[JWSmythe]

You know, something they really miss out on is the TCO. It's occasionally mentioned, but frequently ignored. "Oohh, I get 60mpg". Great. When the vehicle costs more than a regular gas vehicle, and replacement parts are a deal breaker, it's not feasible.

I'm driving my 10 year old car. I've had to replace some parts (brake pads, clutch, water pump, 2 batteries, and a few belts), but it's also done me very well over 115,000 miles, some of it was amazingly abusive driving. Besides my daily driver, I've had several opportunities to take it out racing on tracks, where it does very well.

Back to the mileage, my car gets 26mpg on the highway, and 20mpg on my daily commutes. Over the years, I've adjusted my driving slightly to get better mileage. It has a 6 speed manual transmission, and I've learned that it gets the best milage right around 2000 RPM. That means if I'm doing 45mph, I should only be in 4th gear. 55mph, I should have just shifted into 5th gear. 85mph (I-10 through Texas is 80mph for parts of it) is 6th gear, and that gives me my best mileage (26mpg running from full tank to almost empty with no stops or speed changes).

Higher speeds in a hybrid take a substantial mileage hit.

But back to the parts cost. The batteries have a rather short life. They're not just the one 12V battery that you can swap at any parts store. They are an array of batteries that (to the best of my knowledge) must be replaced by the dealer, or at least purchased from the dealer. They'll last 4 or 5 years, or just about 100k miles. If you're out of warranty, the best option is to sell the car to some sucker who doesn't know how much the batteries will cost. The cost for the battery pack is more than to buy a rebuilt engine for an older rear wheel drive car, and apparently just about as much work. I've seen (and done) weekend "shadetree" engine swaps in plenty of older cars, sometimes where the shadetree is what you use to pull the engine out (chain and hand winch, then roll the car out from under it). I have a friend with an old (1980's) Caprice Wagon, where we're talking about repowering it (rebuilt engine and transmission), and the parts price can be under $1,000, depending on how much power he decides to put in it. :)

I have a friend who has a Prius. The headlights started doing this wonky thing where they'll just turn off, or flicker for no apparent reason. The real reason is that they're HID lights (higher power, higher output). That doesn't make a damned bit of sense. They should have more efficient lighting, not the heaviest draw lighting possible. The lights in that car are special, and very expensive. It's not usually the lights though, there's a light controller that can cause it too. If you go look for how to change the headlights in a Prius, it involves dismantling the whole front of the car. Seriously. I've never had or worked on a car that took more than a few minutes with a common screwdriver (or torx screwdriver) to replace the headlights. I was willing to do the work, but dedicating a whole day to changing the headlights is insane.

So if you had a hybrid or ev, and had to change the batteries every 5 years or 100,000 miles, you'll have put substantially more into the car than if you had a gas car in 10 years. Forget it, if you plan to drive it for 20+ years. They are overpriced, disposable status symbols. "Green" isn't just about saving mpg. "Green" is doing your part for the environment, which includes utilizing things for as long as possible, not trading your car every 4 years.

Oh, and I was talking to the Prius owner. They were almost out of gas. God forbid that happens. If the battery pack runs down, you can't just jump start the gas engine and be on your way. You have to have Toyota tow your vehicle and service the full battery pack. I believe that is charging the whole system back up before the car will

Re:Nope

[MtViewGuy]

In fact, that's why I think the Toyota Prius with the lithium-ion battery pack and optional plug-in charging--which gives it an all-electric range of about 20-25 km before it switches back to conventional hybrid drive mode if you charge the battery pack overnight--makes a lot more sense. It's proven technology, and doesn't need a total redesign of the drivetrain outside of circuitry to accommodate a Li-On battery pack instead of a NiMH battery pack.

Ford--who uses a hybrid-drive technology very similar to what Toyota accomplished--plans to offer PHEV versions of the Focus compact and Grand C-Max "tall wagon" by 2012.

Re:Nope

[drinkypoo]

I think that's a great idea, but we'll also need a way to keep them clean. Getting driven on will dirty them up pretty fast, and a dirty solar panel is a solar panel that's not getting very much sunlight.

It's an incredibly stupid idea specifically because the panels which can be driven on do not exist. All glass road surfaces so far imagined dramatically reduce traction, which is unacceptable. It would make more sense to cover the roads which take the most abuse from sun with solar panels to shade them, which would increase their lifespan without making people drive on glass.

Re:Nope

[JWSmythe]

On the other hand, if I am going out of town, there are very few places I can go on a single tank of gas. Even if there were charging stations available everywhere, the amount of time it takes to charge is unpractical for long drives. I would want to to hold a full day's drive, at least 1000 miles, and confidence that there would be a somewhere to charge where I slept, before I considered using a pure electric for out of town trips.

    I hate to argue against you, but....

    1,000 mile trip would be ... Let me do some math.

    I'm going to use a hypothetical car. 16 gallon tank, and 20mpg economy. Most cars are designed for a max range of 300 to 400 miles, which puts this right in that range. You never want to go to empty, because gas stations are never spaced for exactly the distance you need. We'll give you an operating range of 300 miles (15 gallons).

    This trip will require 4 fuel stops. Someone else gave the number of 10 gal/min for fueling, which sounds fine, so you'll spend 1.5 minutes fueling, but we'll assume you'll want to go take a leak, grab cold drinks, etc. I've found it usually takes about 10 to 15 minutes at a fuel stop for all these luxuries (and it's a good idea to check tire pressures, oil and water levels, etc). So allow 1 hour total for fuel stops, assuming you won't do anything silly like sit down and eat.

    1000 miles of driving at 65mph will still only usually average 50mph (sucks, but it's true), but we'll say you averaged 60 mph, because you were on an Interstate in the middle of nowhere, with no other cars on the road, and no bad weather. That gives you 17 hours of drive time.

    So 18 hours on the road.

    Truckers are only permitted a maximum of 11 hours of driving, and must take a 10 hour break. On my last cross country drive, a trucker friend of mine called me rather frequently to see where I was. After 6 hours, he asked if I was tired. After 8 hours, he said he would have had to stop (because of company rules). After 12 hours he told me I would have broken federal rules. After 20 hours, he said I'd have to keep 3 sets of logbooks. :) At 25 hours, I was tired and stopped. That was about 1,700 miles, driving from full tank to under 1/4 tank (about 13 gallons), rather briskly. Another friend who has done lots of long drives said that the common day range is 600 miles.

    It's not all that common that someone will leave their departure point at 8am, and stop at their destination at 2am the next morning. That's not to say it doesn't happen, or even that I haven't done it on many occasions, it just isn't normal. Even with two drivers, you'll find that you're both tired after 8 to 12 hours.

    To design a car to say it'll do 1,000 miles/day for normal driving is a bit extreme. I do like that I can do it though. I don't like the idea of driving for 4 to 6 hours, and then parking for a couple hours while it charges. And sometimes there are oh-shit moments. Once in the middle of Texas somewhere, I stopped because I was getting very close to empty. The only gas station on that exit wasn't working. They didn't have normal electrical service. They had to run on a generator, and it was broken. The next gas station was 40 miles away. I rolled in on fumes. If I had run out of gas, I could have called AAA, and they would have brought me 5 gallons. I'd like to see the same happen for an electric car.

Re:Nope

[fractoid]

In a gasoline powered fuel, you walk to the nearest gas station, fill up a container with gas, walk it back to your car, and you are good to go. If we could come up with a similar mechanism for an electric car, and help people feel comfortable that the need to employ it would be rare, then the concern would be mostly gone.

We don't need to come up with one. There is one - at least for lead acid battery vehicles. Lead acid batteries 'recover' a small amount of voltage when left to stand, so if you run out of charge in a lead acid EV, you let the car sit for 10-20 minutes and you'll have enough charge to creep a few kilometers home. And in any EV, 'running out of charge' is a gradual process, it's not like in a fuel powered vehicle where you go from 100% performance to 0% instantly.

I think the best suggestion I've seen so far is make sure the batteries used are modular, and easy to replace. If you run out of power, you can go grab a single replacement, which would get you to the station, where you could swap out the rest.

This actually ain't bad. A 10kg lithium booster battery would hold enough charge to get you to the nearest charge point.

The problem with that line of thought is that battery technology, and electric car technology - is not yet at a point where it is "good enough".

Actually, for the vast majority of purposes and drivers, EV technology IS good enough. Sadly, when people come up against new ideas we love to play "what if" and come up with scenarios where the new thing won't work. It's a cheap, easy way to feel smart. That's why you talk to the guy from Chicago who does 20km a week, and he says "yeah but what if I want to drive to my aunt's house in London?" Bingo, electric cars are obviously useless and he gets to feel smug for 10 minutes knowing that he's smarter than whoever suggested electric cars to him.

The end result is that until a new technology is markedly better in every way than the old technology it replaces, it will see undeserved resistance from the general market.

Re:Nope

[fractoid]

You're absolutely right. Sadly, a lot of people apply your logic the other way around - instead of saying "well, my Honda Accord won't tow a horse float or let me shift a ton of sand, so why should I expect an electric car to do so?" they say "what if one day I want to tow a horse float for 600kms on the beach with my dog in the car while carrying four friends and my kids?" And they conclude that despite the fact that they'd be perfectly OK with a Honda Accord for 99.999999% of their driving life, that they in fact really need a Canyonero.

And then they only ever drive the goddamn thing across the street to the supermarket and back.

Re:Nope

[Type44Q]

In the semi-southwestern state I live in, cities vary anywhere from 50 to 150mi apart from each other. An EV that can perform in that 200 to 1000mi "useless zone" would be ideal for intercity travel out here...

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Or for less money than an EV is the first place he could have just bought a gas powered car and not have to worry about renting vehicles.

And besides how will he rent a gas powered car when the Dems out law gas powered cars?

Re:Nope

[commodore64_love]

&& >= 60 km/h.

Where have ye been sleeping the last decade? The Honda Insight, Toyota Prius, and 2002 released Honda Civic are all hybrids and all meet your demands for unlimited distance, same cost as a regular car, and highway speeds. But heaven forbid you let facts get in the way.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG, you wrote the "F" word!

Re:Nope

[BobZee1]

I put 520 miles on a 2007 toyota tacoma 2.7 liter 4-cylinder with each tank of fuel. :~)> I am not defending the GP... not even close. I just want an electric car that can do 200 miles per day at about 70 mph average. Who wouldn't want an electric car? Seriously! They are so cool and so quiet!!! I drive 900 miles per week for my job. Yes, I hate it.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Batteries are still expensive. MSRP on the Leaf is $32k base. Base price on an A3 TDI is $30k (and yes, I'm purposely picking an expensive model here). You can get a much nicer gas or diesel powered car for the same price as an electric, and will until there's a major advance in battery tech in a cost/watt sense. Which is exactly why the government is throwing so much money at people for buying the things (especially the ones made by GM).

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

These are some excerpts from Nissans FAQ about the Leaf

DISCLAIMER *Based upon EPA LA4 test cycle conducted in laboratory tests. See http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml . Gradual loss of capacity in battery will result with time and use. Actual range will vary depending upon driving/charging habits, speed, conditions, weather, temperature, and battery age.

depending on the conditions, when your battery is new your range may vary anywhere from 138 - 62 miles. range is most affected by:
Climate control – the more extreme the temperature is outside, the more energy used to heat or cool the cabin.

Speed – higher speeds require much more energy to overcome air resistance.

Driving style – smooth acceleration and deceleration will extend range while aggressive acceleration and deceleration will decrease range.

Cargo and topography – heavy cargo and driving up steep long inclines will reduce range.

EPA LA4 test cycle: 100 miles
The Nissan LEAF has been tested under the EPA Urban Dynamometer Driving Schedule, a laboratory test commonly called the LA4 test cycle, which represents city driving conditions. Top speed is 56.7 mph and average speed is 19.59 mph. Ambient temperature can vary from 68 - 86 degrees. Climate control is off. The Nissan LEAF easily achieved 100 miles.

DISCLAIMER *All above scenarios based on new battery life. Estimated range based upon specific variables studied through computer simulations.

Now lets compare the leaf to a vehicle in it's class.

Nissan Leaf - Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V
MSRP: $32,780 - $20,080 -> Win Sentra
Horse Power: 107 - 200 -> Win Sentra
Top Speed: 90 - 130 -> Win Sentra
0-60 Time: 9-10s - 6s -> Win Sentra // The leaf will be slow to acelerate up to highway speeds.
Transmission: 1speed - 6-Speed low ratio manual -> Win Sentra // The leaf will be even slower to accelerate once up to speed and not as fun to drive.
Suspension: Normal - Sport Tuned -> Win Sentra // The Sentra will handle better.
Styling: Win Sentra

The Spec V get's 31/24 mpg so lets go with the 24 mpg figure. For the price difference of $13,700 assuming 4 dollars per gallon I would have to drive a leaf for 82200 miles before I would break even with the Sentra and that's not counting the cost of electricity, rental cars when I need to go beyond the cars range, hotel rooms when I run out of juice and have to wait for it to recharge. And that was taking the highest end Sentra. The low end sentra has an MSRP $15,520 I could buy two of those for the price of one leaf.

In every way the Spec V is a better car that will be more fun to drive.

Re:Nope

[Cinder6]

Subjective as all hell, but I've yet to see an EV that 1) is available for purchase today, 2) isn't $100k+, and 3) wouldn't make the driver a laughing stock to actually be seen in one.

Beyond the subjective, a gas/diesel car can be much more versatile--do any electric cars exist that have lots of storage space, or great tow capacity? A city driving scenario is the only situation where an electric car makes any sense. If that's all you do, then great. Pay the extra money for one and enjoy it (though you might be less "green" than you think you are, depending on where the power from your grid comes from).

Re:Nope

[Cinder6]

How is a larger car suboptimal for your needs? I've done plenty of commuting in SUVs, and never once thought "oh damn, if only my car was smaller!" Seems the larger car that has more capacity and fits 100% of your driving needs would be better than the car that only fits 95%.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh please. Modern gas cars are not that loud, and they aren't that dirty.

Especially not from the inside. I can barely hear my car's engine when I'm inside the vehicle, and it isn't a terribly expensive car (it's just fairly new - 2008 model). And dirty? Uh, no.

Cars are sold to the purchaser, not the people around them.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

I can go to my off grid (solar) cabin 180 miles away and still make it home maybe.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

have you actually tried to rent anything to pull trailers ? its almost impossible in some places to rent anything which can pull a trailer. even the pickups from budget etc which are fitted with towing hitches arent legally rentable to pull anything.

Re:Nope

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Jaguar just unveiled the C-X75 concept Grand Tourer at the Paris Auto Show. Because of "instant torque", it blows doors off of conventionally fueled Ferraris. Goes to 205 MPh. Range: 500 Miles.

How? Two gas-turbine jet engines, which run a recharging system, on board. The fuel tank is less than 14 gallons - and the system is pressurised for ALL of the fuels: Biodiesel, Diesel, Gasoline or LPG. Fuel as you chose, and plug into your home mains, as well.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/09/paris-auto-show-jaguar-cx75/

Arrivederci, Italia!

Re:Nope

[dachshund]

This is the approach being taken by the Chevy Volt, which isn't on sale yet but seems far more likely to see widespread adoption than the Aptera (based on marketing budgets and so on).

Re:Nope

[glitch0]

Dude you should really buy a bike rack!

Re:Nope

[HereIAmJH]

It's not impossible that sale of new combustion-powered vehicles to normal consumers will be banned within twenty years,

They won't ever be banned, at least in the US. You can still ride a horse. You can still buy a horse and buggy. But nobody uses them because there are 'better' solutions, and the infrastructure no longer exists. This isn't a CF vs incandescent bulb type change. When enough people buy electric vehicles that you don't have a gas station on every corner, people will give up their ICE cars for daily use.

A car example, since we are talking about cars... You can still drive cars that were built prior to emission controls. You aren't required to update them, they are grandfathered into emission laws in most states. You can buy lead additives (or non-lead replacements) for cars that can't use unleaded gas. I haven't looked recently, but 10 years ago you could buy leaded Av-gas (aviation) and legally use it as long as you paid the road use taxes.

Re:Nope

[HereIAmJH]

At some point between now and 2030 production will start decreasing, as the wells we can reach will be depleted.

Something that many people don't realize is that 'the wells we can reach' changes based on external factors. New technologies make previously 'unreachable' oil available. Look at the effects horizontal drilling and oil extraction from shale have had in the past. And what was 'un-available' at $20 a barrel is producible at $100 a barrel. For many years, US oil companies imported oil that was cheaper than drilling for oil here. Those reserves will be tapped as the economic factors change.

Another problem most peak oil calculations fail to account for is the cost factor in the supply/demand curve. They tend to want to calculate the lifetime of currently producing reserves based on current usage or rising demand. (IE: India and China) At some price point US demand will drop off as other transportation alternatives become more attractive (although public transportation is not likely to be one of them). And demand in India and China, where public transportation is the norm, will likely see small increases in demand for personal use and drops in demand for use in manufacturing and transportation as production costs reach parity with large consumer nations. (US, western Europe) 'Buy American' will have more support when Chinese exports are just as expensive as American products.

Re:Nope

[haruchai]

Or you buy an EV with a swappable battery, which is the business model behind Better Place, who are presently building
battery swap stations in various locations, Israel, Denmark, Australia, Japan, Hawaii, California and Ontario.

Re:Nope

[__aagmrb7289]

Quick point - "good enough" is what the market feels is good enough, not what we feel is good enough. I think the current state of the market is likely good enough as well! And, hybrids that reverse the Prius model - a primarily electric driven care with a gasoline backup - that's more than good enough, IMHO. Dunno what the market will think, yet.

Re:Nope

[fractoid]

Hmm. Purely being pragmatic, you're right. It doesn't matter how good EV performance is if people won't buy them. From that point of view, what needs fixing right now is people, not EVs. :P

I'm keeping a really close eye on the Chevy Volt, which is exactly what you describe - a plug-in series hybrid which runs exclusively on battery power for the first 40 miles, then starts recharging itself from an onboard genset. I'm really hoping it takes off. Of course, electricity prices are going up hugely (at least here in Australia) so maybe people won't be quite so keen to plug it in when they realise it costs $17 for 64km of all-electric driving... my 21-year-old turbo 6 is cheaper to run!

Re:Nope

[fractoid]

Ooops, make that $1.70, I slipped a decimal point. That's much better! :)

Re:Nope

[__aagmrb7289]

Exactly the car I was thinking of! I can't wait to see how well it sells. I think the price point is a bit high - they could sell the shit out of the car if it was even a few thousand cheaper - but they have the market analysts - not me.

Re:Nope

[R3d M3rcury]

I've considered it. My issues:

1. Can't find one for my make and model. Again, "little sports car."
2. I don't like the strap-on ones. I'm not necessarily good with straps. I once had a bikini top almost blow off my Jeep because I did the straps wrong. Besides, I can't even find one of those that will work with my car (no rear bumper).

So I like the convenience of a minivan where I can just bungee the bike to the side of the van and drive off. But I'd rather drive the cute little sports car day-to-day.

Re:Nope

[Spoke]

Yep - that's exactly what they've designed and what the two plug-in vehicles (Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt) will be sharing.

The SAE J1772 charging protocol uses a standard port and allows for basic communication between the EVSE and vehicle to determine the maximum safest charging rate up to 19 kW (though EVSEs on the marget are currently limited to 7.2 kW).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

They are still working on a different standard that will allow even faster charging which will likely be agreed upon in the next year.

Re:Nope

[drinkypoo]

In California it is never legal to run leaded fuel on the street. Dunno about anywhere else. I used to own a 1960 Dodge Dart which required both octane booster (12:1 compression!) and lead substitute. However, you can no longer BUY a car which runs on leaded fuel. It's not a stretch to believe that one day you won't be able to buy a car which runs on gasoline. I think twenty years is an overly ambitious time scale but if Big Oil succeeds in transitioning into Big Energy then it could happen.

Re:Nope

[glitch0]

Ahh I see. Well I just wanted to make sure you considered it :) And I bet most slashdotters aren't good with straps :-P

Re:Nope

[bandmassa]

It's as simple as this.

Lock up a few kilos of Lithium in all the cars of the world, and Central/South America and Afghanistan will make the Middle East look like a cakewalk.

Meanwhile, there's a biofuel tech in Texas that uses farm waste to create a crude oil that can be pumped into existing refineries to produce all the normal range of fuels and plastics, yet burns cleaner than mineral based fuels in unmodified engines to produce a fraction of the CO2 emissions of the farm waste left to rot. Google Vetroleum and Sustainable Power. Using just 1/6th of the USA's farm waste, this tech could meet all US land transport demand. Using all the world's farm waste and you could run the space programme on it - run a mission to Alpha Centauri on it :-)

If electric cars are the future, civilisation is fucked.

Re:Nope

[nobodie]

yeah, i get 60+kph on my electric bike here in China and people pass me all the time. BUT, the damn things are not safe at 50kph, i was eating lunch today watching two guys lying in front of a hair salon waiting for the police and a cab to take their statements and hustle them off to the hospital. they were hurting after a 2 e-bike crash at slow speeds. It is common to see smashed up e-bikes in intersections with a pool of blood around them.

UPS EV

[null8]

I've spotted an electric UPS car here in Hamburg. It was very spooky as it approached us from behind, so silent it was. I'd get one of those for the sole reason you don't have to pay ~2 Euros for a liter of gas.

2 sets of wheels

[kwerle]

Yeah, in the next few years I hope to get solar panels and an EV for local trips. Pretty rare for me to go even 30 miles in a day.

But I'll keep a gas burner for the road trips.

Maybe later.

[SanityInAnarchy]

Put me in an environment where I can't walk or bike, and give me enough money to afford to buy and own a car, and we'll talk.

Till then, I'm on a beautiful campus with more sidewalks than roads, and I can get anywhere I care about in less than 10 minutes. I don't even want a bike -- that'd cut it from 10 minutes to 2, which just isn't enough to care.

Outside this range, the closest thing I care about is 2-3 hours away (outside the range of many electrics), and beyond that, long enough that I'd rather fly.

Re:Maybe later.

[arkane1234]

You will graduate (or "explore other options") someday. That world you live in is a college town, and designed for walking since that's all there is... college, and a few stores for drinks, food, and probably a couple of bong stores.

Re:Maybe later.

[SanityInAnarchy]

Not quite. The world I live in is a college campus, so a bit smaller. The rest of the town, I have "free" public transportation to.

However, I did take a break of a few years, during which I lived and worked in a small town. All that really changed was the amount of time -- 20-30 minutes -- but still walking distance.

I'm not saying no one should ever need one, not even that I never will. I'm just answering the question -- I'm not likely to buy any sort of car soon.

Duo?

[Geoffrey.landis]

No Myers Motors Duo?,

OMG!

[oldhack]

I hate SF loons. And I am a lefty science geek that lived there for ten years.

This is the town that supports the Whole Foods/Andranico idiocy.

I can put up with Berzekly, but SF...

Nuke it from the orbit. We will make a fresh start.

Hate to point it out

[WindBourne]

but ALL electric vehicles are plug-in. It is only hybrids that have or do not have plug-ins.

Definitely

[Anonymous Coward]

My next car will be electric.

Real cars only

[Plekto]

1 - it needs to be able to do 70mph like a normal ca or else it's a glorified golf cart.
2 - it needs 200+ mile range or else it's a joke.
3 - it needs to be for sale and not a 1-off by some tiny firm in Santa Rosa, CA.

Re:Real cars only

[mr_zorg]

With the exception of your 200+ range, the Nissan LEAF satisfies the rest of your requirements (it's only got a 100 mile range). It's a perfect "around-town" car for me, which is why I've got one on order. It should be delivered by December. I can't wait.

Re:Real cars only

[Belial6]

Here in Santa Rosa, CA, the LEAF is more expensive to drive than my all gas car.

Re:Real cars only

[morgan_greywolf]

100 miles is inadequate for long distance travel. It's gotta be 200 miles -- which is about the distance you can go on a tank of gas in most cars -- or you can forget about road trips. And no, an airplane is not a decent substitute.

Re:Real cars only

[AJWM]

It's gotta be 200 miles -- which is about the distance you can go on a tank of gas in most cars -- or you can forget about road trips.

Geez, just tow a small trailer with a generator. Sure, it's using gas, but not much.

In fact if the car chassis will take the weight, it doesn't even need to be a trailer, just mount the thing directly on a towbar fitting like some bike racks. Shouldn't be that heavy.

Re:Real cars only

[Plekto]

The reason I said 200 miles and highway speeds and for sale is because the last one that could do that was about a decade ago - the Toyota EV RAV4. What shocks me is that in lieu of a real development process, these companies are basically skirting around all of the laws and regulations by classifying their vehicles as motorcycles or city only or other nonsense.

Re:Real cars only

[cgenman]

1 - This hasn't been a problem in years. You can get electric bicycles up to 70 now. Really the question is torque, where more energy efficient cars and driving inherently just don't have much acceleration oomph.

2 - This is the sticking point. 200 miles requires a lot of expensive batteries. Electric-Gas plug-in hybrids seem like a good compromise... 40 miles on electric for normal commutes, full range on gas for family trips.

3 - Electric vehicles are launching immediately from Toyota, Chevy, and Nissan, to be shortly followed by Dhailmer, Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Mini, Peugeot, and pretty much everyone else at this point. Also, that "tiny firm" in Santa Rosa now owns the NUMMI manufacturing plant in Fremont, at a span of about 88 football fields.

Re:Real cars only

[istartedi]

AFAIK, Tesla was never based on Santa Rosa. They're a Delaware corporation and have had offices on the SF Peninsula throughout most of their history. There actually is a Tesla Electric in Santa Rosa, but it's a contractor (ie, wires houses and office buildings). I guess the long-standing position of the contractor, the fact that they don't make vehicles, and (almost certaily) a different logo are enough to prevent trademark issues.

Re:Real cars only

[Mashiki]

Except that you know in places where it actually gets cold. EV's are useless, you won't get even 20mi out of a battery in the middle of a normal canadian winter.

Re:Real cars only

[drinkypoo]

Except that you know in places where it actually gets cold. EV's are useless, you won't get even 20mi out of a battery in the middle of a normal canadian winter.

That depends on the system. Tesla uses a "cooling" system which maintains minimum temperatures as well, with waste heat, just as an internal combustion engine-powered vehicle does.

Re:Real cars only

[Shadow99_1]

While they have had numerous issues, the Tesla Roadster actually does get about 200 miles of range, can do 70, and has been for sale... That last part is the bigger issue as they have failed to actually meet demand.

Re:Real cars only

[Yvan256]

Once you stop driving there is no waste heat to keep the batteries at a minimum temperature. And batteries lose their charge in the cold weather.

Ask any Canadian, he'll tell you dozens of stories about regular cars and trucks not starting in the middle of winter.

Re:Real cars only

[swillden]

100 miles is inadequate for long distance travel. It's gotta be 200 miles -- which is about the distance you can go on a tank of gas in most cars -- or you can forget about road trips. And no, an airplane is not a decent substitute.

200 miles is useless for road trips. A 600-mile range, minimum, plus the ability to recharge overnight would be required. Basically, a pure EV would only work if it's a pure commuter, or unless we had some battery-swapping infrastructure deployed all over. So what I want is a good hybrid. I love the Aptera series hybrid (40-mile electric range, plus 500-600 miles on a five-gallon gas tank), but it looks like it won't hit the streets for a decade, if ever.

Well, maybe a decade will be okay. A two-seater wouldn't work for my road trips right now anyway. Right now, I generally need six seats, but 10 years from now the kids will (should!) be gone.

Re:Real cars only

[swillden]

Geez, just tow a small trailer with a generator. Sure, it's using gas, but not much.

Yes! I'm really surprised we haven't seen any designs that take this approach. Pure EV for commuting plus a smallish generator maybe 40 HP (30 KW) on a trailer for longer trips. Heck throw an inverter in and the generator could double as a home backup power system.

Re:Real cars only

[Plekto]

The firm in Santa Rosa, CA is ZAP. They've been churning out a handful of cars every year for a couple of decades.

Look, if Toyota could put normal batteries in a RAV4 a decade ago and meet those three criteria, there's no reason that modern vehicles cannot. When I hear about yet another EV that's really only legal for city use or has a 60 mile range, well, people were doing that in the 1980s with converted Escorts and Beetles. With lead acid batteries and just DIY wrenching in their garage.

It's a lot like these new low-cost Solar Cells that we keep hearing about but that never make it to market.

And let's look at the Tesla. It works, but the price is so prohibitive(why use a $40,000 car as the chassis when a stripped down Aveo will work just as well?) that it's never going to sell. Top Gear did a test of the thing and while it did work, it also was so heavy that it lost every benefit OF the decision to use an Elise as the platform(hopelessly mediocre handling due to the 1000+ lbs of batteries required). They should have just used a XB or Cube or similar.

And let's look at the Leaf. It looks like it should be fantastic, but where's the range? Would it have killed them to put a small auxiliary turbine generator set on it to extend the range?(imagine a supercharger sized turbine generator - enough to extend the range to roughly 200 miles on 2 gallons of gas) The "Onboard charger" is not an auxiliary generator to extend the range, but instead is a huge and heavy inverter to allow you to plug it into your wall like an appliance(using 110V vs 220v). So close and yet so far. The battery pack is 24KWh, so basically you have a maximum drain of roughly 12-15kwh at highway speeds. That means you need an 8-12 kwh generator to get 200 mile range(or unlimited range in city driving as long as you have fuel to power the generator). 4 stroke geneators are massively inefficient, which is why I suggested a micro-sized turbine.
(note - a prototype car with a 30KWH generator like this exists (CMT-380), but it misses the point. Half that would be more than enough for a typical car)

And of course, what's the real linchpin is that if you are really concerned with "going green", Honda's CNG Civic does everything correct. It does better than the hybrids, it whomps on the electrics(no toxic batteries), and it costs less to run.(approximately 80 mpg based upon CNG vs Gasoline price differences)

I'm still waiting for a proper hybrid - an EV with a small battery pack and a tiny generator to recharge them. If done right, it would fit all of the criteria and cost LESS than a typical small car.

Re:Real cars only

[Trepidity]

A pure commuter EV doesn't seem bad as a starting point. There are plenty of families with one small around-town car and one bigger one for trips; you could replace the around-town car with an EV.

Re:Real cars only

[mr_zorg]

Not to mention they're not exactly affordable...

Re:Real cars only

[Shadow99_1]

He never included 'affordable' in his list.... xD

So far they've been one of, if not the only electric I've seen get any sort of real production...

Re:Real cars only

[drinkypoo]

And batteries lose their charge in the cold weather.

No they don't, they simply cannot deliver their power when cold. The chemical reactions that occur in them when you draw power from them happen too slowly. Drawing power from them happens inefficiently at this time. However, when you begin to run the system it heats up, the batteries are heated in short order, and then you're going down the road just fine.

Ask any Canadian, he'll tell you dozens of stories about regular cars and trucks not starting in the middle of winter.

I'd rather ask a Canadian who knows how the car battery works. Oh wait, I got an "A" in a six-unit automotive electronics course... I think I'll just ask myself. While we're on the subject, I'm also ASE certified in automotive heating and cooling systems.

Re:Real cars only

[Mashiki]

Then you should also know that the only reliable way to keep a battery system from getting to a 'no start' state is to use an external thermal heater on the batter, plus lots of insulation around it. Then pray it doesn't get too hot to damage the life of the batter.

Once you get out of Southern Ontario, all bets are off to whether a battery will work properly even while insulated.

Re:Real cars only

[drinkypoo]

Then you should also know that the only reliable way to keep a battery system from getting to a 'no start' state is to use an external thermal heater on the batter, plus lots of insulation around it. Then pray it doesn't get too hot to damage the life of the batter.

And/or to use an alternate battery technology. But since EVs are going to be charged overnight, a preheat is not a problem.

Preordered a Leaf

[Sithech]

Paid to stand in line and expect delivery by end-of-year. I nearly had an EV-1 back in the day, but backed out when they refused to sell them, would only lease. This time should be the charm. The charger location is approved by my HOA and the install estimate is done, so it's just a matter of when Nissan can get production ramped up enough. there's a set of legacy chargers across from my office, so I have the option of plugging in during the day. And the city gives free parking to EV owners in their garages, so it is even subsidized. They just need to update the AVCON plug to the newer version and things should be set.

Re:Preordered a Leaf

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with EV's is in the details. Where does the power to recharge the batteries come from? If one million EV's are on the road how many power stations will be required just to charge them? Second detail: How long will the batteries, of any type, last? How much will it cost to replace them? Just asking.

Re:Preordered a Leaf

[Eclipse-now]

Is the Nissan the variety that come with battery-swap through Better Place? Any news on that front at this expo? I thought San Francisco was one of their demo cities.

Why Not?

[Doc Ruby]

Since we can plug in an electric car for repowering in our homes and at our offices (and other destinations), they don't need as far a range. And since we generally use our cars for much shorter trips than the maximum range, that range was wasted capacity anyway, except for rare trips. Trips for which we can rent a car more suited for it.

The main problem with our transit economy has been buying cars with much more capacity than we need, and then looking for excuses to use it. If the lower capacity of early electric cars gets Americans to change our driving habits to use less energy, plus they're more efficient, we'll have won on both the important fronts needed to use energy responsibly.

Once the technology can offer the same full range at the same price for the machines as combustion cars did, we'll largely have outgrown them. But to get there, we need more people to realize that these early versions are completely satisfactory for reasonable use. Which will increase consumption, deliver returns on the initial models' investment, and bring down prices while increasing performance.

Re:Why Not?

[cgenman]

The average American family owns two cars. For long family trips, they only need one that can go great distances. The other is almost entirely used for work commuting, a task for which electric vehicles are particularly suited.

Re:Why Not?

[__aagmrb7289]

The technology isn't "good enough" for what the average consumer thinks they want - period. And there are only two ways to fix that: first, you can change their mind. While I think that'd be great, fact is - you can't - not in the short term, which is when it must happen. The only other way to fix the problem is make the car cheap enough that the consumer is comfortable buying it for in-town commuting, and giving up on it for long distance travel (by using an alternative like renting a car, or owning a second car). So, do you think it's likely that they'll price the electric cars cheap enough to be valued by the average consumer? Problem is, until the technology allows for traveling, or the prices allow for a different consumption model, it will not be widely successful. This is marketing 101.

Re:Why Not?

[CrimsonAvenger]

The average American family owns two cars. For long family trips, they only need one that can go great distances. The other is almost entirely used for work commuting, a task for which electric vehicles are particularly suited.

The average American family owns one car per driver's license. And frequently an extra vehicle for hauling things around.

Re:Why Not?

[Doc Ruby]

You say that, yet the total capacity for manufacturing electric cars is sold out, as it has always been since they've been introduced (and then shut down, then reintroduced). The American consumer isn't as dumb as Marketing 101 likes to say, which is why the weakness in the car industry is in the marketing department, which doesn't know how to sell anything but a wall-climbing tank to people who will never use it that way.

The early adopters are driving down the costs by paying off early R&D including manufacturing optimizations and precisely targeting features from the full palette, as in any industry. By the time the average consumer is ready to buy one (or two), the factories will be producing them at the price they want. That's in Marketing 202, but it's still true.

For all of you naysayers..

[adric22]

I plan on getting one as soon as possible. Check out this video for some common myths for all of you naysayers out there!

http://www.evtalk.org/95/evtalk-ev-myths/

Yes, but DIY

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no way I could afford a new electric vehicle, and frankly, I have little use for a tiny sedan, I am a truck guy. With that said, my next vehicle is going to be an electric truck, using as many scrounged/cheap/used parts as I can find. Been looking around lately for the starter small compact truck, something with a nice body but a croaked engine so it is real cheap.

That and some solar panels, I think I'll have my basic local transportation covered, even if we go through another wild ass fuel shortage like back in the OPEC embargo days.

Re:Yes, but DIY

[Anonymous Coward]

My "tiny sedan" can probably out do your "small compact truck" in just about every fashion except hauling large footprint stuff in.

You sound more like one of the country fans out there who think that "tiny sedans" are just for city folk and kids with loud bass systems but I can tell you that my "tiny sedan" kicks much small SUV and pick up ass in the adverse conditions and does it with a fair amount of horsepower (I actually have more HP under my hood than most Jeep SUVs, little do they know...) and without the high insurance and maintenance costs.

But you know what they say about a fool and their money...

Have a great day, sucker.

Roll my own....

[kilodelta]

I plan to build my own plug-in EV. In classic style, I want a VW Vanagon or like. Be easy to use a lead-acid battery pack on it. Not to mention pretty simple to mount the electric drive.

The other reason for the Vanagon, in Back to the Future everyone wants the DeLorean. Me, I want the terrorist van.

Re:Roll my own....

[biryokumaru]

You should totally build a big hunk of it out of used pinball machine parts.

Re:Roll my own....

[Black Gold Alchemist]

You actually have the right idea with the big car. Old toyota pickups full of lead acids are the mainstay of DIY EV converters (I'm not one, just an observer). Why? because they have a high MPG*payload product, and thus can handle the weight. Lead-acid is ready to roll, right now. Li-ion is just too expensive right now. LiFePO4 might be there but really hasn't been proven yet. NiMH might be the dark horse candidate. So we're stuck with lead-acid, for all its suckyness.

In terms of convertible vehicles, I like toyota pickups, vans, and toyota highlanders. Why? I wrote a simulator that simulates drag, battery effects, and a bunch of other stuff and figures out the range of an electric car. Vans, hummers, and the like came out on top in terms of range. Highlander had the highest MPG*payload product.

Re:Roll my own....

[R3d M3rcury]

Me, I want the terrorist van.

Have you considered the VW Polo?

Re:Roll my own....

[drinkypoo]

You actually have the right idea with the big car. Old toyota pickups full of lead acids are the mainstay of DIY EV converters (I'm not one, just an observer). Why? because they have a high MPG*payload product, and thus can handle the weight.

A vanagon or microbus is another ideal conversion target because it has a lot of open space down low, underneath the vehicle and seats, and because the engine layout lends itself to replacement.

Re:Roll my own....

[Black Gold Alchemist]

I wonder about replacing the transmission with an electric motor, and the starter with a generator. Then you would have an "easy" plug-in series hybrid. You could put a generator in an electric conversion, but you'd need at least 3 10kW generators. Using generators would produce a lot of pollution compared to the engine, and placing them in a car like that could violate the clean air act by being considered an engine swap.

If you used currently existing engine, you would not violate the clean air act by swapping the transmission. You would also save money buy not having to buy all those generators.

Re:Roll my own....

[drinkypoo]

I wonder about replacing the transmission with an electric motor, and the starter with a generator. Then you would have an "easy" plug-in series hybrid.

It doesn't really work that way. You can replace the torque converter in an automatic with an electric motor though, Subaru did it in a prototype Impreza. You can also put a motor inline with the drive shaft after the trans or probably before it (After would be more useful I think) in a manual trans model.

Re:Roll my own....

[Black Gold Alchemist]

I would like to know why won't direct drive work. If you just rip out the transmission, and put the motor in (assuming you mounted it properly), wouldn't it be existentially equivalent to putting a motor inline after the transmission? For example, you can see BMW transmission mod on this page: link. I think it would fit.

I have to think about the automatic upgrade idea. Thanks for looking at my idea. I don't know as much about cars as I would like.

Make it as capable as my pickup truck....

[Anonymous Coward]

Bleh, get me an EV pickup truck that can haul as much as my F-250 and I'd start to think about it...

Re:Make it as capable as my pickup truck....

[Yvan256]

Still a better chance of happening than an electric F-16.

Give me something that derives energy flexibly

[DanDD]

like from solar, wind, nuclear, coal, the rendered fat of politicians, etc.... The Volt, Leaf, etc. will do just fine. For now.

electricity too expensive here

[0111 1110]

I was considering a Leaf, but I live in the third most expensive state in the US for electricity. The Leaf battery pack is supposed to be rated at 24 kwh. So a full charge will cost me at least $4.00 (assuming 100% charging efficiency) and at 75-80 mph highway speed will only get me about 60 miles of range. That's about 6.7 cents per mile. Compare that to a 2000-2006 Honda Insight, which should get at least 50 mpg even at 75-80 mph. 50 mpg at $2.50 per gallon is only about 5 cents per mile. Another car I'm considering is the Mini which is rated for about 36 mpg highway at 55 mph and would probably get more like 33 mpg or so at 80 mph. So the Mini would cost me about 7.5 cents per mile. Still less than a cent more per mile than the Leaf. Considering all the compromises necessary for a plug-in vehicle that savings doesn't seem worth it.

My commute is 70 miles round trip with no charging on the other end. I read that the 100 mile range is for a 55 mph speed. At 75-80 mph I heard the Leaf would only have a range of about 60 miles. So as much as I like the idea of a PHEV, I have given up on it. I think an electric vehicle really only makes sense in states like Idaho or Washington where electricity is only 5 cents a kwh or something. In Massachusetts, New York, or Connecticut it doesn't seem to make much sense economically. I may get a 2006 Honda Insight or maybe a Mini while I wait for the Volkswagen L1 diesel hybrid which hopefully will be sold in the US too supposedly sometime around 2013. I'm not holding my breath though. Which is why I'm considering a 2006 Insight. It may be the most efficient car available in expensive electricity states for quite a while.

Re:electricity too expensive here

[znerk]

The Leaf battery pack is supposed to be rated at 24 kwh. So a full charge will cost me at least $4.00 (assuming 100% charging efficiency) and at 75-80 mph highway speed will only get me about 60 miles of range. That's about 6.7 cents per mile.

Ok, so ignoring that you're breaking traffic laws with your speed, let's go crazy and call it 7 cents per mile.

Compare that to a 2000-2006 Honda Insight, which should get at least 50 mpg even at 75-80 mph. 50 mpg at $2.50 per gallon is only about 5 cents per mile.

$2.50 per gallon? Where are you buying your gas? It's $3.19 per gallon, where I live. Gasoline is expected to be $5.00 per gallon in the next two years. That'll double your nice little figure, there.

Assuming it only goes up to $4.00 per gallon, that still throws your gasoline-powered Honda up to 8 cents per mile - and that's before you factor in oil changes (electrics don't need them), wear-and tear (electrics have fewer moving parts), etc.

Make the switch, man. It's just going to cost you in the end if you don't.

Re:electricity too expensive here

[Anonymous Coward]

The Leaf battery pack is supposed to be rated at 24 kwh. So a full charge will cost me at least $4.00 (assuming 100% charging efficiency) and at 75-80 mph highway speed will only get me about 60 miles of range. That's about 6.7 cents per mile.

Ok, so ignoring that you're breaking traffic laws with your speed, let's go crazy and call it 7 cents per mile.

The posted speed limit on the highways here is 70mph. There are places where the posted speed limit is even higher.

Compare that to a 2000-2006 Honda Insight, which should get at least 50 mpg even at 75-80 mph. 50 mpg at $2.50 per gallon is only about 5 cents per mile.

$2.50 per gallon? Where are you buying your gas? It's $3.19 per gallon, where I live. Gasoline is expected to be $5.00 per gallon in the next two years. That'll double your nice little figure, there.

Assuming it only goes up to $4.00 per gallon, that still throws your gasoline-powered Honda up to 8 cents per mile - and that's before you factor in oil changes (electrics don't need them), wear-and tear (electrics have fewer moving parts), etc.

Make the switch, man. It's just going to cost you in the end if you don't.

Gas here is less than $2.50. The price of gas can go up and down. Plus you assume the price of electricity will stay low. We only have a fixed amount of capacity. If demand increases so does the price. Plus you ignore the cost of rental cars when he needs to drive a distance greater then the range or the cost of hotel rooms when he needs to wait over night for his car to recharge assuming the hotel even has a charging station. Plus the cost of replacing the batteries and the fact that as the batteries age the capacity decreases. So as the EV gets older the cost per mile will double as the range reduces to half after a year of recharge cycles.

Only a fool buys an EV when for a hell of a lot less you can buy a much better gas powered car.

Re:electricity too expensive here

[Plekto]

A CNC Civic beats them all, at $1.41 a gallon equivalent(site near me, filling from home is a little less than that), and a roughly 30 miles combined(24/36) for that amount of energy, you're looking at a cost of ~3.8 cents a mile(or the equivalent of about 75-80mpg versus a gallon of gasoline). Plus, it has the magic white sticker for carpool lane(the "forever" one). It works and runs exactly like a normal Civic, just with half the trunk space is all.(only negative)

Honda's been selling this for 12 years now. You can even buy a filling device to fill from home - your garage is your gas station, in effect, and so that makes the 180-260(city/highway - tank holds roughly ~7 "gallons" equivalent of CNG) mile range even less of a problem. It also qualifies(as does the home pump) for the same incentives as Hybrids, but has no limit on numbers per year like hybrids - so your rebate/refund/etc is pretty much guaranteed.

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/
$25K (not including tax incentives) and a lot better than a Prius if you want to really "go green".

Can I Get it In a Bigger SUV?

[Greyfox]

Make a vehicle big enough to put a 50 megawatt pebble bed nuclear reactor in and you're on! Hopefully it's big enough to also land aircraft on... We could call it a Land Carrier!

Re:Can I Get it In a Bigger SUV?

[morethanapapercert]

Make one big enough for six pebble bed reactors and we can call it Bun-bun! ("Let's rock Posleen boy!")

Nope, not Better Place

[Animats]

How about Better Place [betterplace.com]?

I heard Shai Agassi speak at the Commonwealth Club in SF, and met some of his people afterward when everyone went over to 111 Minna (a club). They talk big, but they have very little actually deployed. They talk about growing by a factor of 10 each year, and deployment all over the world. All they have are three (3) taxicabs in Tokyo, and one automated battery change station for them. Their next deployment will be seven (7) cars at the Sheraton Waikiki Resort, plus and a few charging spots. That is a Government-funded project. They have yet to deploy anything that pays its own way, even with subsidies. There are much bigger electric taxi projects; Shenzen already has 100 electric taxis running. New York tried one in 2007, but "it got to spend a lot of time on the back of a flatbed tow truck and not a lot of time as a taxicab", especially in cold weather, so they're deploying hybrids in large quantities instead.

Better Place's basic assumptions are that 1) fast charging technology won't work, so battery changing will be necessary 2) leasing battery packs is a viable business, 3) enough cars can be designed around the standard battery packs to make this work, and 4) they can standardize the infrastructure around their standards. All four are iffy.

A female environmentalist friend who heard Agassi speak commented that he's really good looking, and too much of his credibility comes from that.

Re:Nope, not Better Place

[Black Gold Alchemist]

You are totally right about Better Place. I think it will be a disaster, the virtudyne of the green business. Looking at how much gadgetry is in a battery swap station (see the videos they have), and just ask, how much it would cost to replace all 100,000 odd gas stations in the USA. It would just be insane. Then realize that inorder to have a hope of replacing a gas car, you'd have to have at least 200 miles of range. In real terms, that's 20-30 thousand per battery pack. It is just ridiculous.

1) fast charging technology won't work, so battery changing will be necessary

This one probably won't be true. Most wires just can't give out enough power. Recharging a car at speeds at which a gas car is charged takes around 5 megawatts. That means that 10 of my local costco gas stations = 1 powerplant.

2) leasing battery packs is a viable business

With current battery prices, it can never be a viable business model. Most batteries cost too much per unit of energy stored. For example, a lithium ion costs ~0.5 dollars per watt*hour of energy stored, but runs 1000 cycles. Which works out to the battery costing 50 cents per kilowatt hour, 5 times as much as the raw electricity. You can go cheaper, and perhaps below threshold of batteries costing more than all the electricity they store.

3) enough cars can be designed around the standard battery packs to make this work

That's a major problem. How are they going to put those batteries in an SUV? A delivery truck? Can we convert cars to better place electrics?

4) they can standardize the infrastructure around their standards.

Yep. Good luck with that, especially when all the Vogons at the NHTSA, EPA, CARB, and the insurance companies start to mess around with that.

Or, for 7000 bucks you can order up a bunch of generators in stick em' in the car. Cut the battery pack to 40 miles of range, and solve the battery sticker shock problems.

Re:Nope, not Better Place

[Animats]

This one probably won't be true. Most wires just can't give out enough power. Recharging a car at speeds at which a gas car is charged takes around 5 megawatts. That means that 10 of my local costco gas stations = 1 powerplant.

It's not quite that bad. 1 megawatt is more like it. The Tesla Roadster battery has a capacity of 53kWh. Their "fast charge" is 3 hours, and requires 220V 80A, or 17.6 KW. To charge 60x faster, in 3 minutes, would require about 1 MW. (4KV at 250A, perhaps?)

It's been suggested that stations on weaker parts of the power grid might have local batteries, to level out their load. They could still charge a car in 3 minutes, but maybe only 5-10 cars per hour. Then they only need 100KW coming in.

Batteries that can take charge rates like that don't exist yet. There are claims from the "nanotechnology" crowd that they will be available Real Soon Now. We'll see.

15 minute charge, though, is feasible now. That can be addressed with marketing; the combo gas station/Burger King/Starbucks/grocery store might work. (Or not.)

Consider a service plaza on a major Interstate highway in an isolated area. A good example would be I-15 from LA to Vegas. Assume a range of 200 miles, like a Tesla roadster. Every 20 miles, there's a service plaza. Assume 10% of cars come in for a recharge at each service plaza. An expressway lane has a capacity of 2000 cars per hour, so an 8-lane freeway has 16,000 cars per hour at max. If 10% of those need a Tesla-sized recharge, that's about 50KWh per car, or 1600*50 KWH/hr, or 8 megawatts per service plaza per direction, or 16MW per service plaza, or 80MW for 100 miles of road. That's big, but not unreachable.

Re:Nope, not Better Place

[Black Gold Alchemist]

It's not quite that bad. 1 megawatt is more like it.

Yeah, that's true. Gas stations put out around 10 gallons/minute, and in a 20 MPG car that translates to 200 miles/minute. So it really is more like 3 megawatts for the exact same refuel rate. That said, it is not as bad as I thought. It still is pretty bad, and likely infeasible for the near future.

It's been suggested that stations on weaker parts of the power grid might have local batteries, to level out their load.

That's theoretically economically impossible, unless the cost of electricity were to more than double. See above.

Batteries that can take charge rates like that don't exist yet. There are claims from the "nanotechnology" crowd that they will be available Real Soon Now. We'll see. 15 minute charge, though, is feasible now. That can be addressed with marketing; the combo gas station/Burger King/Starbucks/grocery store might work.

Cheap chinese NiMH can do fast charging in 15 minutes. I think I read about cheap NiCd that can do fast charging in under 15 minutes, I'll see if I can dig up that info. Nanotechnology is too expensive, especially when a cheap chinese NiCd can do a better job.

If 10% of those need a Tesla-sized recharge, that's about 50KWh per car, or 1600*50 KWH/hr, or 8 megawatts per service plaza per direction, or 16MW per service plaza, or 80MW for 100 miles of road. That's big, but not unreachable.

If that's the case, America's 46,726 miles of highway would need 3.7 terrawatts. That's way to high of an estimate. The 10 percent of cars is too big in the previous analysis. Looking at it another way, each of the 100,000 odd gas stations needs 10 pumps, or 10 megawatt lines. A total of about 4274251 million vehicle miles are travelled per year. Roughly 20161561320 fast charges would be needed per year, or 555 charges per gas station per day. If they were all spaced, that would be only 1 charger per gas station, but they won't be. I don't think the grid could take it.

Re:Nope, not Better Place

[drinkypoo]

15 minute charge, though, is feasible now. That can be addressed with marketing; the combo gas station/Burger King/Starbucks/grocery store might work. (Or not.)

All the people who gave that place a bad review were crying about stupid shit. Oh, it's destroying the earth, but I shop there anyway. They're everything that's bad about typical Californians and the reason that I had to deal with a zillion comments about stupid hippies when I lived in Texas.

Re:Nope, not Better Place

[fractoid]

Batteries that can take charge rates like that don't exist yet. There are claims from the "nanotechnology" crowd that they will be available Real Soon Now. We'll see.

Erm, A123 nanophosphate lithium batteries are available in some Black&Decker and DeWalt cordless tools. They're a real commercial product, it's just that the factory output is booked years in advance.

Re:Nope, not Better Place

[TheLink]

They're a real commercial product, it's just that the factory output is booked years in advance.

What we need then is for the evil Chinese to copy or buy the technology, and start making zillions of them in Shenzen or wherever they make those sort of stuff.

There are already millions of electric bikes in use in China: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904334,00.html

They're also planning to build more than 100 nuclear reactors. If they succeed that might help clear up the smog in their cities.

Say what you like about their Gov, but they appear to have a long term plan that might actually work.

Re:Nope, not Better Place

[postbigbang]

So use big honking capacitors that store juice underground, much in the same way we store fuel. I hope a better job is done of that so that the lithium likely to be used in the caps doesn't damage water tables.

How many farads is that? A bunch. Do you deliver them with a truck? No. Probably something more like a substation grid. But it might be nice to see an 18-wheeler that's just a huge tank of electrons, ready to go to work.

Re:Nope, not Better Place

[Black Gold Alchemist]

Capacitors are 10 times heavier than lead acid batteries. They are also insanely expensive. No way you'd want to use them in that storage application. As cited above, the aforementioned economic issues prevent even once through battery storage from being cost effective. Now we have to double that cost ineffectiveness?

I don't think they would bury the battery packs. They would need replacement too often. As far as I know, there's no lithium in the caps.

Capacitors and fast charging are the natural language processing of greenness. Only cost effective technology = lead-acid batteries.

Re:Nope, not Better Place

[haruchai]

How about Better Place [betterplace.com]?

I heard Shai Agassi speak at the Commonwealth Club in SF, and met some of his people afterward when everyone went over to 111 Minna (a club). They talk big, but they have very little actually deployed. They talk about growing by a factor of 10 each year, and deployment all over the world. All they have are three (3) taxicabs in Tokyo, and one automated battery change station for them.

The Israeli rollout is (presumably) months away but I think the acid test for Better Place will be Australia

Their next deployment will be seven (7) cars at the Sheraton Waikiki Resort, plus and a few charging spots. That is a Government-funded project.

Half the money comes gov't, the rest is from Hawaiian Eletric, which is not a gov't corporation

Better Place's basic assumptions are that 1) fast charging technology won't work, so battery changing will be necessary 2) leasing battery packs is a viable business, 3) enough cars can be designed around the standard battery packs to make this work, and 4) they can standardize the infrastructure around their standards. All four are iffy.

Too much fast-charging is detrimental to battery life - if you owned the battery, that could get expensive very quickly.
Battery leasing has been done in the distant past of the auto-industry, before petrol became the dominant fuel.
Better Place is taking a "build it, they'll come" approach - that takes the pressure off manufacturers but the fly in the ointment is what might happen if some competitor makes a vastly superior battery - I suppose they could switch but what would that cost them with the contracts they have signed? The standards thing is a question mark but if they're first and fastest, then they become the standard.

A female environmentalist friend who heard Agassi speak commented that he's really good looking, and too much of his credibility comes from that.

I doubt that was a factor in convincing Shimon Peres and Ehud Olmert. although Shai is Israeli, but is only being a good-looking Jew enough to convince Carlos Ghosn, a French Roman-Catholic of Lebanese descent to commit a billion dollars in switchable-battery EVs? I'm sure the fact that Agassi seems to have done his homework on his business plan, and likely would have been the next-CEO of a small outfit known as SAP played a larger role in getting $500 million in venture-cap than his boyish charm.

Re:Nope, not Better Place

[haruchai]

Sodium-sulfur batteries (NGK Japan) would be a hell of a lot better in all respects than lead-acid. I'm guessing that Vanadium Redox, Zinc Bromide could do the job.
Even NiMH and NiCd would win out over lead-acid due to the impact of deep-discharging
on battery life.

Re:Nope, not Better Place

[fractoid]

This is slightly off topic, but I think the Shanzai industry is fascinating. The lack of regard for patents and copyright makes it the closest thing we have to a commercial open-source culture. They only have 3 months at most after launching a product before competitors have cheaper, better clones on the market. That sounds like an impossible task to keep up with, but (since you can in turn steal most of your design from existing products) startup and R&D costs are trivial compared with traditional western 'closed' development.

For a long time people discounted it as a source of innovation, but the very tight iteration time coupled with the low barriers to entry mean that the only way to survive in the market is to innovate relentlessly. The leading manufacturers are now providing more features for lower prices than western brands, and it can only get better from here.

The Shanzai economy is my pick for the one to watch in the next 20 years. Pretty soon it's going to go absolutely mental.

Re:Nope, not Better Place

[blind biker]

Batteries that can take charge rates like that don't exist yet.

No, and they are not even needed, for the application you mention: during charging, the battery can be sliced into small cells, all charged in parallel. As for the charging station, that doesn't need a battery, either: a flywheel on a generator is a much better solution: spin it up with the electricity from the grid, and switch it to generator mode when charging a car's battery.

First things first

[PatPending]

Where's my flying car?

Re:First things first

[Jeremi]

Where's my flying car?

Erm, they're not ready for prime time yet. However, we have developed a flying Segway, if that's of interest....

Hybrids are close, EVs are a no-go.

[rogerdugans]

When electric vehicles match the performance, convenience, cost and actually achieve eco-friendly PARITY with modern internal combustion vehicles, then I will consider one.
And not before.

To those for whom driving is simply a way to get from one place to another, and have fairly short distances to cover- yes, they may be a viable option even if they DO actually cause more environmental damage than a real car at this point. (When the full impact of production including fuel production is considered, as well as battery production and disposal.)
For those who actually ENJOY driving as an activity in its own right- no current EV or hybrid under 100,000 USD fulfills the requirements. And even those don't really do a good job of it.

Yes, hybrids do cover the range issues of pure electric- for minimal mileage gains and far increased pollution (again the batteries!) and greater cost.
The inexpensive hybrids currently available have barely any mileage benefits over a car with an internal combustion engine. The expensive ones.... well, the added weight and complexity of the hybrid system pretty much outweight the benefits and the buyer ends up with a car that costs more, does more damage to the environment (current battery tech is still not where it needs to be) and doesn't handle as well. It MAY accelerate slightly quicker though, thanks to the high torque at 0 rpm of an electric motor. But handling and braking will be worse thanks to the extra weight.

Pure EVs will someday be the ideal urban transport, once the battery issues are truly worked out (progress has been made but they are NOT there yet, don't kid yourselves.)
For suburban travelers and those who must travel greater distances, hybrids will also be prevalent one day.

But that day has not yet come.

I do think that those days are getting closer all the time: in the near future we are likely to see hybrid vehicles appear that succeed purely on their benefits and not the hype and purchase/tax incentives,
Hell, even the Prius has almost become a practical car, and it's main selling point until now has been that driving one announces to the world that you want everyone who sees you to know that you are an eco-mentalist (to borrow Jeremy Clarkson's word.)

But for the immediate future modern internal combustion engines are the better choice for an automotive powerplant.
I do thank all of you who purchase them now however: without all of YOU the research that will one day allow some company to make a GOOD hybrid car would not get done.

Customization?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are the manufacturers offering customized battery options? I used to have a 6 mile commute. A 20 mile battery backed up with an ICE would have suited me fine. Why should I cart around a 40 mile battery I don't want? Why should a 2nd car commute-only cart around an ICE?

For the real win, why should anybody cart around anything they don't need? The economics of battery replacement are said to not pan out, but what about ICE rental for long trips? It would be tricky, and maybe only a good idea for a truck platform (easy to install ICE in the bed and use it as a generator for long trips).

I remember when my old man used to buy cars. They'd actually ask him what kind of rear differential ratio he wanted. The salesman would actually have to explain it if you didn't know. Real men knew... or pretended to know. I bet they don't do that anymore.

Time of Day Metering?

[Black Gold Alchemist]

Two questions from someone who wants to understand EV economics:
1. What about time of day metering in your location? (I.E., charge at night?)
2. What is your state? Is it coal powered?

Good luck getting some insight in to the Insight.

Re:Time of Day Metering?

[Trepidity]

Time-of-day metering isn't available yet in the vast majority of the U.S., though rollouts are increasing. They're not always day-to-night types of programs, though. For example, the "critical peak pricing" program that PG&E is going to roll out in California (initially voluntarily) will let people get slightly cheaper normal usage in return for large surcharges during critical power shortage events. So there still wouldn't really be a day/night difference on normal days, because the main goal of the program is to push down peak demand on a few hot afternoons a year.

Re:Time of Day Metering?

[cheesybagel]

I doubt his state has coal powered energy. The most expensive electricity is usually in places like Hawaii, where there are little local resources to harvest and you need to generate a limited amount of power. Small islands usually use petroleum to generate electricity.

Re:Time of Day Metering?

[cheesybagel]

These schemes seem like a great way to shaft customers with high power prices to me. Would you be interested in paying unpredictable power prices? Boy it will be "fun" to have to program my house's power supply to only buy power when it's lower than a certain price. It will be like being force to play in the stock market just to heat a pizza.

Another Leaf Pre-Order

[jIyajbe]

(This should have been a slashpoll...)

Another vote for the Leaf, another pre-order...Happily, I live in one of the trial markets.

call me when...

[morethanapapercert]

Several folks have posted that they'll be interested in an EV when it can do a certain range (call when it can go all week, call me when I can get 500mi etc) Others have responded that by and large, you don't really drive all that far on a day to day basis. Here's my problem: I live in an apartment building in a large town/small city, so my parking is a ground level lot with the bare minimum of light standards that the municipal building code allows. My assigned spot doesn't even have a curb stone, let alone a source of power run out to it. At work, I park in an industrial plaza that has only one source of light, the big sign that advertises all the businesses in that plaza. It's such a basic lot that there aren't even painted lines and due to my low position in the company, "my" spot is well away from the building.

So, where would I charge my hypothetical EV? As far as I am concerned an EV is a no-go until municipal codes in both my home town and city where I work are changed to require charge ports for every parking spot that can reasonably called an assigned slot. (someone's assigned bay in the parking garage at his/her apt building, all "employees only" parking spots, municipal curb side "free parking between 8pm and 6am" parking spaces and while we're at it, all those "pay and display" parking lots as well.) In my opinion, it's the core city-dwellers who could make the most of a small, short-range and inexpensive EV but face the hardest challenges in getting them powered.

Want to know what I think the next big development in EV vehicles should be? School buses. Around here they drive for a total of three hours in the morning (one shift each for the public and catholic schools) then they park for 4-5 hrs, drive for another 3 hours and then park until the next morning. Some park at the drivers home, but most park in a big yard at the depot. Relatively few of them need to drive in excess of 80km and there is tons of space underneath them for battery packs. The same weight of vehicle vs # of passengers carried economy of scale that a diesel bus has would also be true of an EV bus. Throw in the fact that; unlike your typical four door sedan, school buses don't have such power hungry accessories as a/c power windows, rear defrost, hell most them seem to be barely heated at all. The only draw back I can see is that you can almost guarantee that your local bus line will be far more motivated by, and play closer attention to things like initial capital outlay, long term operation costs and then cost per mile than your average car buyer. I want to buy an electric car, but I have to admit that being able to brag that I have one, knowing I am on the cutting edge and being all "green" is among the motivations, I suspect that's true of a number of EV owners and wannabe owners. The only EV bus I can find with a hasty Google search are Ebus' products and they say right up front that thier city transit style buses are well over a 290,000U$ each! At those kind of prices, no wonder I'm not seeing any EV school buses yet. Diesel buses run under 80,000. An EV bus has to match that, or at least come close, you can go a loooong way on 210,000$ worth of diesel bought at fleet rates....

Anyone here work for Bluebird or Thomas? Those seem to be the only brands of school bus I ever see around here.....

Your math is wrong, or you are a driving hazard.

[znerk]

...I would want to to hold a full day's drive, at least 1000 miles...

Good grief. 1,000 miles is a lot more than a full day's drive... For the sake of argument, we'll say you're doing circles on a highway in Texas, so you can actually get away with an average speed of 75 miles an hour... Do you realize you're casually throwing around nearly 14 hours' driving time, not accounting for stops for food/bathroom breaks? Never mind that (assuming a very generous 350 miles per tank of gas) you would need to stop at least 3 times, simply for gasoline. That's nearly double the amount of time that truckers are legally allowed to drive in a single day, for fatigue reasons. All of this is at high speed, with no stopping. Drop the average speed to something more reasonable, like 60mph, and you end up with a driving time of nearly 17 hours. I have personally managed an 1800 mile cross-country trip in three actual days (not "driving time" but "actual time elapsed"), and let me tell you, that was a brutal pace. A thousand miles is closer to two full days' reasonable driving time than to the "full day's drive" you claim. Having driven to remote locations as part of my job, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that a full day of "on the clock" driving is more like 400 miles per 8-hour day, assuming perfect weather/visibility and no construction.

To stay on the topic of "a full tank of gas", I get about 300 miles to the tank in my PT Cruiser. A full tank is approximately 15 gallons, but that probably isn't relevant information for this conversation. So let's call 300 miles "a tankful". Driving to the nearest town to the north of the one I live in is about 30 miles. I did this 5 times a week to get to my place of employment - and then drove back in the evenings. "Aha!" you shout, "that's a whole tank of gas right there!" To which I respond "Yes, it is. In a week, not a day."

Unless you are a commercial shipping company, or someone whose job it is to drive for hours on end every day, I simply cannot understand your argument.

Re:Nope....well, maybe Yes....

[Anonymous Coward]

I am familiar with the Wheego and several other EV's, and like any other car - no single vehicle fits every persons wants and needs.

A lot of my folks in my area are multi-vehicle households. They have a gas-powered car for long hauls and unusual events, but the EV is their commuter and day-to-day vehicle. Many of them charge at their workplace (which, in an 80-100 mile range car, translates to an effective range of 160-200 miles) during the day, and others have lives where the range of the current generation of EV's (80-100 miles in Lithium formulation/25-40 in Lead Acid, on average) works out just fine for them. Another solution many folks have found is incorporating short-term rental rigs ( http://zipcar.com ), renting by the hour - or longer term, as another poster suggests, as with traditional rentals.

The emerging generation of commercially produced EV's, of which the Wheego is my favorite, offers a ride comparable to any other motorized vehicle in terms of comfort and performance. It's early days, but already we're seeing practical and affordable production vehicles that, for many folks, fit their lives just fine.

To learn more, I'd suggest visiting www.wheego.net and www.mcelectricvehicles.com ...

Canceled my Tesla S order

[Anonymous Coward]

Third battery replacement on my wifes hybrid and battery replacement on our segway, AGAIN, made me realize battery tech is not even close to where It needs to be for EV to be practical. Batteries are ecologically expensive and degrade much more rapidly than assumed by that pro EV studies.

charging solution

[astar]

your need to charge actually has a possible solution. I did not see anyone mention that with the right electric supply you can do a 80% charge in 20-30 minutes. Oregon's local greenie governor is planning on putting stations like this along the main interstate, hmm, every 100 miles?. He has some federal money to do it. Now he plans to locate these sites where is there is some existing retail and other amenities. Hey, few greenies would call me green, but I think this particular idea is a reasonable thing to try.

I think the electrical tech is say a 440v supply. Nothing really exotic. Big computers require that sort of stuff. A home workshop might rarely have that sort of supply.

Anyway, to state the obvious, no real government code changes required. Figure that if the customer base was there, I think safeway would love to provide you a charging station while you go in to buy stuff. If you spend 30 minutes shopping and stroke safeway with some money for the electricity, everyone is happy for at least that day.

I do not want to look like a silly invisible hand guy, but my approach here fits a capitalist system better. The local gov is doing the right thing too, demoing the tech and market, so that the risk adverse big capital types can see a sure way to make some gilt without necessarily raping the population.

Just get a 20 year old Honda / $3000 = 38mpg

[Anonymous Coward]

I drive a 1991 Civic SI, built from 88 thru 91:

      It was the first car to out sel the previously most popular US car for 15 years, the F150 Ford pickup.

    Out accelerated, cornered and stopped the Porsche 911 of the same year (1988) for 1/3 the price.

    Many of them have gone 300,000 with just regular maintenance.

    Gets 40 mpg at 55mph - usually.

    Front brakes and rotors cost $22.00 a corner.

    Cops keep profiling me because the gearhead kids love to 'hop them up"!

   

Why does it need that range?

[Sycraft-fu]

I understand that some people have the need for long range, but do most? I don't think so. Most people I know do not travel long distances in their cars. They drive around the city. Means you need enough capacity to be able to do that for a couple of days. For most people, that means 100 miles would be fine. 50 miles is a lot of driving for one day, and thus even if you forget to plug your car in one night you should be fine the next day.

I just do not see range as a major issue for most. Hell, I personally only put about 100 miles of gas (about 5 gallons) in my tank when I fill up because I bike to work and thus don't drive a lot (gas isn't stable, it goes bad if it sits in a tank too long). Never have I had a trip in the city that came close to taxing that. Even on a busy day, where I run several errands to different spread out locations I'll go maybe 30-40 miles.

There is far too much bitching about electric car range. Yes, I realize some people need more range. For them, gas vehicles are still widely available. However I'd bet 80% or more of the people who cry about EV range never go farther than a charge would take them in a day. That is the thing to remember is that you fill them on a daily basis. You'd have a charging station at home so every night they get topped off. Thus if what you do is drive around town, they are fine unless your commute to work is pushing 40+ miles each way (which is a hell of a commute).

Also even for those that do go on long trips in their car, one of these still might be a good choice as like many American families they likely have two cars. Keep a gas car for longer trips, an electric car for daily use.

I think the range thing is just more people crying without thinking than anything else, or people not considering that they get to recharge nightly. I mean sure, a 100 mile range would suck if you had to drive to a charging station to recharge. For longish commutes it could mean a daily stop. However that's not the case. You charge at home so your vehicle is ALWAYS charged unless you just can't remember to plug it in.

Re:Why does it need that range?

[Plekto]

But two vehicles basically negates any costs savings.(actually costs you MORE if it's new). the EV also needs to be capable of being a primary use vehicle as well. And that means being able to handle the occasional trip to visit the relatives or 60 mile drive to the next city over to pick up something(and of course drive back without renting a hotel room).

He probalby lives in Arizona

[Sycraft-fu]

Gas is around $2.50/gallon in most parts of the state. Also, 75 is not breaking traffic law, it is Interstate speed here. Going 80 is generally tolerated, like most places 5 over isn't something you get nailed for.

As for your gas cost, sorry but I'm not buying it. Not because it isn't possible but because you have no good information indicating that. The kinds of rampant speculation I see around gas prices, the stock market, the US dollar and so on are phenomenal, and have only increased what with the recession. None of them seem to be at all based in realty, just people making shit up.

I'm not arguing against electric cars but your arguments are heavy on the scare factor and light on the facts.

Sheer fantasy, do the maths on battery weight

[Kupfernigk]

At 60mph your van is going to need a continuous 20kw. That's assuming no hills where you live. The acceleration will be poor to say the least.

Now let's take the assumption that you need a minimum range of 60 miles. Allowing for acceleration loads, you are going to need a usable 25kwH capacity.

The nominal capacity of a standard 110AH lead acid cell is 1.3kw, but if you try it, you will get it once only. In reality, at motor loads you will get about 80% efficiency, but if you discharge more than 40% of theoretical the battery will start to degrade quite fast (you can easily check this if you read up the detail data sheets on e.g. the Yuasa website.) That means that in real world use, your lead acid battery will give you about 400WH. Your 25kwh will therefore need about 60 of those batteries. At 80lb each including tie down and cable, that's 4800lb of batteries - over two tonnes.

Stick that in your van and you will need bigger tires, uprated suspension, but also you will need more power for acceleration now it weighs more than twice as much. So you'd better uprate that 25kw to 40 - oops, your battery pack now weighs three tonnes. Time for another iteration. In the end, you realise that you just cannot get that performance envelope with lead acid cells.

Now do you understand why electric vehicles are hard to design, and why people who have actually got PhDs in electric engineering and battery design have so far been unable to deliver a worthwhile EV?

Re:Sheer fantasy, do the maths on battery weight

[kilodelta]

My situation is such that I have a reasonable flat ride to work and an 8 mile round trip. Then again I'm also not talking the tiny little gelled lead-acids and I understand the logarithmic scale of Pb battery degradation.

I'll know we've won...

[incognito84]

...when I see an electric vehicle with a gun rack on it.

I'm very hopeful about this technology but it's hard to take it as a serious contender when year after year we only see it in showrooms and not on the roads.

Electric car = urban parochialism

[gestalt_n_pepper]

Unless you've lived in rural New Mexico, Nevada, Utah or Arizona, you don't know how useless a 100 mile range maximum can be. 100 miles out of almost anywhere in southern New Mexico leaves you stranded in the desert if you're not on a major highway. Recharging opportunities are bit sparse too.

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why so smug? I mean WTF? I use a truck as a truck, I can't haul the stuff I have to haul all the time in a little car. My truck rarely if ever is used just to haul me around, I have to carry bulky odd heavy/biggish stuff all the time for my work, tools and materials, and also my lifestyle living in the country. If all I needed was a car, sure, that's what I would have, but I need a *truck*. The truck I use now is only a four cylinder as it is, a compact, I don't even own a larger truck. And I don't do "pleasure" driving at all, only necessary trips. When I have to go "off road", which I also have to do with my work, I use a tractor. If I was an urban or suburban commuter I'd like a little sportsy type car, but I am not, I am a blue collar worker (well, a green collar, I work on a farm) who needs to haul reasonably bulky stuff all the time. It would destroy a little car quickly to try and cram all that stuff in it all the time, or I would need to use a trailer near all the time so it makes more sense to just use the appropriate tool, a truck. For really big items, I borrow a flatbed or dumptruck a few times a year.

Most of my needs though could be done with an electric truck as long as it could still carry 500-1000 lbs and had a range of 40 miles or so. Just none of these larger companies that are putting out new electric vehicles have any indications of smaller trucks coming, plus even then if they did they would probably cost even more than the electric sedans,so I will be forced to make my own if I want one. So I get ranked for that? WTF?

I for one am waiting patiently...

[Thumper_SVX]

I am already waiting. I have been watching the Aptera with extreme interest since I first read about it right here on Slash. It seems perfect for my needs as a daily commuting vehicle as I have about a 20 mile commute to work. Double that and add some little running around during the day and we can say that on a busy day I might go 70 miles total. That's well within the range of every EV out there. Big range means nothing to me because it's really the exception that I would go more than this in a day. Being a two-seater is a bit of a problem as a family car, but most families own two cars anyway. Besides, the Aptera is looking to be low enough in cost that I could then add that Tesla sedan as the family hauler and we could be incredibly happy with that. I figure for those rare times I need to go farther in a day, there's always rental cars. Hell, I do this already most of the time because when you take into account wear and tear on your car as well as the cost of fuel, the cost is about the same or sometimes even cheaper. If I'm driving to Chicago for example (about 300 miles) there's a part of me that would love to have the creature comforts of my BMW... but when I consider the true cost of that car for those miles I find it more convenient to rent a basic car with a CD player for that drive and usually I'm quite happy.

Yes, my BMW is not exactly the best example of efficiency and "green-ness" out there, but it's what I have today. Will that change? Yes... I think I can say without a shadow of a doubt that in the next few years that will change significantly. First however there has to be the cars I want to drive available as electric. The Aptera I think will be the perfect daily car, and the Tesla sedan the perfect family hauler. I will gladly invest in the infrastructure (charging stations) to power both of these and keep them in my garage and will trade my Bimmer in a heartbeat for them. There will be those that will laugh at the Aptera because of the way it looks... but I used to drive a Subaru SVX (owned three of them actually) so I'm used to being laughed at for the car I drive ;)

Next car I buy

[MpVpRb]

will be electric, or plug-in hybrid.

Yes, I know it's more expensive, but I can afford it, and the electric car industry needs help to get established.

Gas cars have had 100 years of development by some of the brightest people around.

It's not surprising that they are refined to such a high degree.

Yes, I know that the first generation electrics will not be as good as the gas versions.

but... WE NEED TO STOP BURNING OIL!

Re:Your math is wrong, or you are a driving hazard

[penguinchris]

Just an anecdote, I drove - alone - from California to Buffalo, NY, 2530 miles, in 2.5 days elapsed a few months ago. Driving the other way (two years earlier) I took three days because I wasn't in a rush ;)

Is it reasonable? Of course not... I wouldn't go at that pace if I wasn't young, and if I could afford to stay in hotels (I slept in Wal Mart parking lots).

Re:Your math is wrong, or you are a driving hazard

[Cinder6]

1,000 miles is way too high an estimate for a single day, but having to gas up 3 times in a regular car to go the same distance doesn't invalidate the argument, because it takes way longer to charge an electric car than it does to gas up. If I wanted to drive to Disneyland from my house, making only the necessary stops (gas/powering up), it would take about 7 hours in a gas car. If I did the same drive in, say, a Tesla Roadster, then I might be able to get away with only one recharge, which would make the drive 10 hours. And that's if I'm actually able to get the advertised 245 mile range.

Re:Your math is wrong, or you are a driving hazard

[caluml]

assuming a very generous 350 miles per tank of gas

Bless you, you crazy cousins of ours over the Atlantic. 350 miles to a tank - that's almost impossible, right?

right now

[idji]

If you can show me a vehicle that can get me 25km to work and back in snow, sleet and rain for 1000W then I am in.

It's not unreasonable.

[pavon]

Where I live most highways are 75 mph, and the normal flow of traffic is higher. I figured 800 miles per day, which is 10 hours at 80 mph or 12 hours at 65mph. Then I added 25% margin to account for driving against the wind, hilly roads, diminished battery capacity over time, charging station being out of service and having to drive to the next town, etc.

It isn't unreasonably or unsafe to drive 800 miles in a day. We do it every Christmas, alternating drivers whenever we stop for a break. Furthermore, I wouldn't feel comfortable planing to drive 800 miles in a car that had an 800 mile range, so some margin is needed. I was probably being a little conservative, and the maximum distance would be lower for people who drive mostly on the east-coast. So drop that to 650 miles per day with a 15% margin and you get 750 miles required range.

Taxes on electric power

[cvtan]

Electricity is not subject to the taxes imposed on motor fuels. This artificially skews the cost comparisons being made. What happens if there is a substantial shift to electric power and states find that revenue from gas road taxes starts falling off? It makes sense to me that they will shift the tax burden to electricity use. This will cause some problem since electricity is used for many things other than transportation. A per mile tax on electric vehicles is the answer. Maybe. A legislative conundrum!

Re:Taxes on electric power

[cheesybagel]

Just add tolls on every road. Or force every car to have a meter. Simple.

Not me, no thanks.

[siglercm]

I'm working to *reduce* the demands my household puts on the electric infrastructure by conserving energy at home. Were I to buy a plug-in EV, my electricity usage would skyrocket. I'd likely have to get electrical work done to upgrade my service for the load of plugging in an electric car, so I'm saving money all around. Finally, all the electricity an EV would need would greatly increase my carbon footprint, because more coal would have to be burned to supply that energy.

I'll just keep on driving my high-MPG new technology diesel (a VW Jetta TDI SportWagon). It's better for my pocketbook, for the infrastructure and for the environment. Going EV now would be foolish.

Re: Battery Swap Stations

[SailorBob]

They don't charge the battery packs in 2 minutes, they swap out the depleted battery with a fully charged one. It's like swapping the gas canister for you grill. See this demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHHvjsFm_88

Re:Your math is wrong, or you are a driving hazard

[Mark_Uplanguage]

I can and have done the drive from NJ to FL many times - 900 miles in 14-15 hours (no big deal when you have 2 drivers). In any event, the problem statement was that the recharge time is currently so long that you need a place to sleep so that there's actually enough time to charge the car. People make trips like this all the time, not 10 times a year, but a ton of people drive to college or home, go to visit family, etc. So it's either I need 2 cars, or I have to rent a car for the long trip because I spent all of my money on an EV i.e. they aren't cheap.

In any event, there's no need to think these hurdles won't be overcome, it's just a problem right now. Early adopters are what makes things affordable for the rest of us down the line.

Generator trailer

[Fzz]

Just hook your gas-powered generator trailer up to the tow hitch for that once-a-year trip where you need unlimited range. Leave it in the garage the rest of the year.

I aleready reserved my Nissan Leaf

[Mike Zilva]

EV's might need a lidle help to get established, but in the future, we'll need them more than they need us ;) A healthy world can't have milions of mobile burners in big cities.

Been EV for years

[vanyel]

I had a Sparrow in 2000-2003, and have had a Solectria since early 2006. I'm on the list for a LEAF, which will be my first Primary EV (for some definition - the Solectria covers all my needs in town, I only have to use a gas car once in a while when I go out of town; the LEAF however will be able to handle all but a very few extended trips a year).

Re:Your math is wrong, or you are a driving hazard

[ploxiln]

I suppose I shouldn't mention that I once drove 3,100 miles from Delaware to California in 3 days, on my own... start one morning, drive through the day and night and next day, take a 10 hour nap at a motel the second night, finish it in another 12 hours. It was a "well crap, it's going to suck, let's get it over with all at once" sort of thing. Nevertheless, it happens ;)

Re:Nope - Range and Milage

[Sithech]

Nissan actually has just published a detailed statement regarding range for the Leaf http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index#/leaf-electric-car/range-disclaimer/index. Turns out that running the climate control has quite an effect on range. Part of that is the influence of temperature on batteries and part is the energy consumption of climate control. Heating is worse than cooling it seems. The partial mitigation is being able to have the vehicle pre-condition the temperature while it's plugged in. And the Leaf is rated for 90 MPH (150 KMPH).

sick of battery stories

[Finite9]

I honestly do not get the hype with electric.

Going electric is just as short sighted as fossil fuels. the minerals needed to make batteries are in relative short supply and as they get harder to mine, prices will skyrocket. Does no-one think about this effect as the world goes over to producing car batteries? And we still need to generate power from somewhere to charge those batteries, which leads us back to "what do we currently burn at our power plants?" Yepp: Fossil fuels! The entire eco-system of battery recharging will use up even more natural resources, as charging stations need to be built worldwide.

Whatever happened to hydrogen fuel? You can re-fit standard gas pump stations to pump out liquid hydrogen, the entire infrastructure for delivery of the fuel is *already in place* worldwide, and hydrogen is in unlimited supply!! Has no-one seen the TopGear episode with the prototype hydrogen car!!?? It may not be the most efficient fuel out there with regards to mpg, I think that accolade belongs to grass algae according to NatGeos 3-yr old article on alternative fuels where algae won hands down on efficiency.

Seriously, who the thinks batteries are better in the long-term than fossil fuels?

At least choose an option that uses fuel, whatever it's source, that is near 100% renewable, or unlimited supply!

Re:sick of battery stories

[Finite9]

And let's face it: All this talk of efficiency, mpg etc etc etc. Who gives a shit how efficient it is or how far we can travel on one "tank" as long as the fuel source is in (near) unlimited supply, relatively cheap to produce, and gives us roundabout the same mpg as we have already with petrol!

Everyones ranting on about battery this and 1000-miles-between-re-charge that, and you're all missing the bigger picture which is that car manufacturers are backing the wrong horse (again), just like governments did with Ethanol. And n years down the line, we'll be in the same position we are in now with fossil fuels.