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G2 Detects When Rooted and Reinstalls Stock OS

RandyDownes writes "And you thought the Droid X's kill switch was bad. HTC and T-Mobile's new G2 can detect when it's been rooted and responds by reinstalling the factory OS. This seems like a violation of the Apache license Android is licensed under and is especially ironic given Eric Schmidt's recent statement about not requiring carriers to give consumers the option to install Google's own version of the OS. Schmidt called it a violation of the principles of open source." Update: 10/06 17:47 GMT by S : As readers have noted, the G2 is not from Motorola. Here's a better source, and here's the XDA Developers thread discussing the issue.

406 comments

  1. Motorola's Droid G2...? G2 with MotoBlur...? by loyukfai · · Score: 2, Informative

    What is he talking about...?

    1. Re:Motorola's Droid G2...? G2 with MotoBlur...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you watch video ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=FL7yD-0pqZg

    2. Re:Motorola's Droid G2...? G2 with MotoBlur...? by falsified · · Score: 1

      More importantly, how the fuck is this ironic, if you have Eric Schmidt quoted as being against this the whole way through? Party #1 is against something Party #2 does that thing Party #1, as far as anyone can tell, is still against that thing Irony? (Profit?)

      --
      HI, MY NAME IS ISAAC.
  2. Vendor confusion by frodo+from+middle+ea · · Score: 1, Informative

    You mean HTC G2 ?

    --
    for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
  3. Someone here's messed up bad by Reilaos · · Score: 5, Informative

    G2 is by HTC, and I'm fairly sure isn't running MotoBlur.

    1. Re:Someone here's messed up bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      What are you talking about? This is an article where we make wild and unsupported claims about Google, Apple, Microsoft, and every major cell phone carrier. This isn't an article where we discuss facts.

      Clearly, the article is confused, filled with contradictory and unsubstantiated claims. But why does that matter? The truth or falsehood of the claims will have no relationship to the content of the articles or posts you find on this website.

    2. Re:Someone here's messed up bad by sarhjinian · · Score: 1, Troll

      That people have the opportunity to confuse who has what (Sense? Blur?) is one of Android's more significant failings.

      --
      --srj/mmv
    3. Re:Someone here's messed up bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That people feel choice is bad... is one of life's more significant failings.

      Fuck you and your attitude that everything must be uniform. Enjoy doing what Apple things you should doing, and looking how they think you should look.

    4. Re:Someone here's messed up bad by sarhjinian · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      There's a difference between "What is good, ethically", "What is good, commercially?" and "What is good, from a design perspective".

      Android is harder to develop for because of the number of variants. It has a less unified presence in the market, and less brand identity, and has more trouble "selling" itself. Individual makers of handsets aren't making as much money per unit as Apple.

      This is all aside from the philosophy of the matter. If philosophy is important to you, great, wonderful, but Android's design and go-to-market decisions are proving problematic. It's the same tradeoff Linux makes: you get the freedom to make the system open, but you lose the cohesive environment and marketing power.

      I'm sorry that reality offends you so much.

      I do derive a not-small amount of schadenfreude from watching Android fans crow endlessly about freedom, only to have the carriers and handset-makers cripple their offerings in ways Apple doesn't even broach.

      For the record, I have Nokia E71, so no, not an Apple fan. But it's nice to see that we can have a rational discussion about a platform without devolving into petty bickering. Or not.

      --
      --srj/mmv
    5. Re:Someone here's messed up bad by mldi · · Score: 1

      That people have the opportunity to confuse who has what (Sense? Blur?) is one of Android's more significant failings.

      I look at it as being one of it's more significant strengths (choices! gasp!).

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
  4. I'm so sick of this... by chemicaldave · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...battle for control over our mobile devices. Fuck it, I don't care anymore. The war certainly won't be won in its current direction. It needs fundamental change at the consumer level.

    1. Re:I'm so sick of this... by characterZer0 · · Score: 1

      Oh, the war will be won. It will be one by the carriers and hardware manufacturers and lost by the consumers. The market for people who want control of the software on their devices is simply too small.

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    2. Re:I'm so sick of this... by think_nix · · Score: 4, Interesting

      ...battle for control over our mobile devices. Fuck it, I don't care anymore. The war certainly won't be won in its current direction. It needs fundamental change at the consumer level.

      This is why I recently bought a n900 after reviewing the current situation and comparing many devices with articles, reviews, asking friends or colleagues about their models. Albeit with a (around) 450 € sticker price it was not cheep. But out of the box I do have to worry about changing carriers (if I do), needing to get root (if I want to), app prices, and app licensing.

      Oh did I mention it has been out for little over a year and is stable and has a really cool community constantly building open source apps ?

      http://maemo.org/

    3. Re:I'm so sick of this... by think_nix · · Score: 1

      suppose to be _do not have to worry_ damn typo's

    4. Re:I'm so sick of this... by catbutt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Change is unlikely on the consumer level, there's too many of them.

      Where change can happen is in the media or in companies that have a lot of power. Google might be able to do something. Individuals, not so much.

    5. Re:I'm so sick of this... by guyminuslife · · Score: 1

      The battle will be won, almost certainly. As for the war, it's anyone's guess.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    6. Re:I'm so sick of this... by s73v3r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      app prices

      What is different from Maemo than Android, iOS, or WinPhone 7 (when released)? The OS vendors aren't the ones controlling the prices, the developers are.

    7. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sticker price it was not cheep.

      Most retailers won't respond well to "I'll trade you two dozen baby chicks for that phone."

    8. Re:I'm so sick of this... by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 1

      I have an HTC Magic, my next phone will be MeeGo/Maemo based though. (assuming they don't remove features such as root access in MeeGo)
      I will wait for the N9 though, the N900 is better than my current phone but it seems a waste to get one now that N9 is on the horizon.

    9. Re:I'm so sick of this... by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 0, Troll

      N900 is useless in most of the world because Nokia decided that the 3G functionality only needs support for two European bands and not for any other frequencies. Only the baseline GSM (which means EDGE data rates if you are lucky) works outside of Europe.

      Everyone else, which means most people in North America (only one GSM network with questionable coverage in the USA and one covering literally just the downtown areas of three major cities in Canada are capable of supporting it there) is out of luck.

      So could you please stop recommending the N900 as if it was some kind of universal cure for this problem as it is a device that cannot be properly used on a majority of networks.

    10. Re:I'm so sick of this... by slinches · · Score: 1

      The OS vendors aren't the ones controlling the prices, the developers are.

      Yep, and so far nearly all of the developers for Maemo haven't asked for a penny. There are a few games and things available through Nokia's Ovi store that are for profit, but Maemo has a thriving developer community at maemo.org that have provided just about every application that I could want for free.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    11. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Urkki · · Score: 3, Insightful

      app prices

      What is different from Maemo than Android, iOS, or WinPhone 7 (when released)? The OS vendors aren't the ones controlling the prices, the developers are.

      I think he was talking about "apt-get install packagename" type applications. In that world, the price is pretty much set in stone by the license, usually GPL, and for end-users is effectively zero no matter how you measure it.

    12. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Microlith · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Wow, your nick comes into full display. Do you happen to own an N900 and are simply ignorant of its capabilities or are you just spewing BS?

      Nokia decided that the 3G functionality only needs support for two European bands

      Last I checked it supported 3G on 3 bands and GSM (2.5G) on 4. And coverage as a result is way better than say a CDMA2000 phone, which won't work at all in most countries.

      Only the baseline GSM (which means EDGE data rates if you are lucky) works outside of Europe.

      Now that's hilarious, because I spent 2 weeks in Japan and had 3.5G pretty much everywhere on DoCoMo's FOMA network.

      Everyone else, which means most people in North America (only one GSM network with questionable coverage in the USA and one covering literally just the downtown areas of three major cities in Canada are capable of supporting it there) is out of luck.

      That's because the US is an outlier compared to the rest of the world. I use my N900 on AT&T's 2.5G network because I'd rather tolerate a slower data speed (which still works for 100% of everything I do) than buy a device that does less than I'd desire and be stuck to a contract.

    13. Re:I'm so sick of this... by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      As a Debian fan that also played with Familiar Linux on the old Compaq/HP Ipaqs of yore, I was lusting after an N900 for a long, long time. But it was still rather expensive for me, and the dev community on Android appeared to be more active.

      Ended up getting a myTouch Slide for $300 on craigslist, specifically because it had good CyanogenMOD support. I would not buy another android phone that would not have good CyanogenMOD support. Not really sure how to turn this into a "movement" that the manufacturers would actually pay attention to, though.

      Anyway, if I did need a small palmtop, definitely would go for an N900 or N9. But for a relatively cheap and featureful smartphone, I'm pretty happy with the low-end Android devices that can give me a good ssh / vnc session to a full linux box. :-/

      My only (minor) regret is that Google Earth mobile doesn't run on the myTouch Slide, since it doesn't have an adequate FPU (we're back to lusting after math coprocessors again?!) . But google maps mobile gives me all the information I need, so I suppose I could live without the 3D version. Wouldn't be worth the extra $300 or so for a slightly faster high-end Android device just so I could run that app.

      More app memory would be great, though... 250M internal mem is barely enough for the top 20 "Android Essential" apps, even after pushing as much to the SD card as practical.

    14. Re:I'm so sick of this... by arivanov · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which is happening in the EU.

      Consumers are buying unlocked phones. I am definitely not buying any more contract phones and I could not care less what is exclusive and what is not. Android did with that. There is enough of the same from all carriers and unlocked as well so no need to fight for that coveted spot in the queue in front of the shop when a new gadget comes out.

      An average smartphone costs 230£ to 400£ for most models. That is well within what most people can afford nowdays and most carriers have pretty good SIM-only tariffs.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    15. Re:I'm so sick of this... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Is this true? I hear when people's N900 keyboard symbols start to wear off and I've heard nothing about this before, ever.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    16. Re:I'm so sick of this... by MBCook · · Score: 1

      I use my N900 on AT&T's 2.5G network because I'd rather tolerate a slower data speed...

      So, IgnoramusMaximus pointed out that the N900 doesn't work at 3G in the US, and thus has a serious shortcoming for much of the /. audience.

      Your rebuttal, in which you says he's wrong, states that your N900 only works at 2.5G in the US on AT&T's network.

      Wow. Really convinced me there.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    17. Re:I'm so sick of this... by recharged95 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      From that logic, with the fanboy masses out there, it is truly a Android vs. iOS vs. MeeGo vs. BBOS religious war. Cause in the end, no one wins the war (when it comes to religion anyways).

    18. Re:I'm so sick of this... by cbope · · Score: 1

      I agree with what you are saying, but the N900 is merely Nokia's pilot device for Maemo. Frankly I'm surprised it was released outside the home market (Finland), but I guess they needed more user feedback on the device.

      Also, I would add that the US carriers are way behind the curve, it's not surprising that GSM coverage is poor. I remember traveling to the US less than 10 years ago with a GSM multi-band phone which works practically anywhere else in the world, but would not work in several major cities in the US because there were no GSM networks or there was poor coverage.

    19. Re:I'm so sick of this... by CRCulver · · Score: 2, Informative

      IgnoramusMaximus's post suggested that 3G support was limited to Europe, but in fact the N900 has been rolled out all over the world (India, the Gulf Arab states, Japan, Hong Kong...) and 3G works fine. Just because a phone doesn't work ideally in North America doesn't mean that it fails to work in "most of the world".

    20. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Microlith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, IgnoramusMaximus pointed out that the N900 doesn't work at 3G in the US, and thus has a serious shortcoming for much of the /. audience.

      Your rebuttal, in which you says he's wrong, states that your N900 only works at 2.5G in the US on AT&T's network.

      Except that you're wrong, in that it does work on 3G in the US and Canada. They don't have huge amounts of coverage, but they're the only ones in the US that actually share frequencies with European carriers (and Japanese, and Chinese, and Indian...)

      So he's wrong. And you're wrong.

    21. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Microlith · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised at the hate people get for mentioning the N900. It's almost as if people are incensed at the mention of a non-Android, non-iPhone device.

    22. Re:I'm so sick of this... by bluephone · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I bought the N900 as soon as it was released in the US. I had been waiting for it since I got my N810, which I instantly fell in love with. The N900 was great out of the box, but over the next 4 months I became increasingly disappointed with it. I even changed from AT&T to TMobile because I wanted 3G data. The Maemo platform is still incredibly immature as anything other than a hobbyist/developer platform. As a smartphone it's nearly useless. And Nokia did nothing but pay lip service to the platform after launch. I say this as a long time Nokia fan and Maemo booster. I jumped to Android, the Nexus One, and haven't missed my N900 for a second.

      Not only does the software platform suffer from terribly integration and missing features, the hardware itself is poorly designed. The slide mechanism is cheap, and wound up putting scratches into the right side of the keyboard area. There is a magnet on the OUTSIDE of the battery cover that performs two actions. It helps hold down the useless kickstand (it's positioned too far to one side to reliably keep the N900 upright if you play on touching it) when the kickstand is closed, AND it also triggers a sensor on the phone so it knows the battery door is closed. When that magnet falls off, the phone won't mount the SD card because it thinks the battery door is open. The only solution is to go to Nokia warranty and have them send you a new back.

      If you lose the stylus, Nokia won't even SELL you a new one. They sell them to warranty service centers, but PEOPLE can't get them.

      Nokia has completely lost any clue they had how to satisfy customers anymore. They keep putting out great designed phones with Symbian, a dead OS (don't even tell me how awesome it still is, it's not. It's a dead OS that no one told is dead. iOS, Android, even WinMoPhoneCE 7 is better than Symbian.), and crappy hardware with a POTENTIALLY fantastic OS, Maemo. And then they decided to merge Moblin with Maemo. It'll never take off, any chance it had is dead. Meego is the new Taligent. And the N900 is just dead in the water.

      --
      jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
    23. Re:I'm so sick of this... by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm surprised at the hate people get for mentioning the N900. It's almost as if people are incensed at the mention of a non-Android, non-iPhone device.

      Uh, no, that's not it. It's the same reason nobody wants to hear anybody blindly mention how the iPhone solves everybody's problems.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    24. Re:I'm so sick of this... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      The problem, you see, is that with most carriers in the US, you pay the same price whether or not you get a phone with your plan, and those that do typically don't offer enough of a discount to make up the $500+ price difference in 2 years. So, since you're paying the same rate (or close to it), it only makes sense to get a subsidized phone. The *only* advantage to BYOP, for most people, is a month-to-month plan instead of a 2 year obligation... but most people don't switch carriers very often, so it's a moot point.

    25. Re:I'm so sick of this... by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      Uncritical fanboys seem in force today. In the US the only network that is capable of supporting the N900 is the AT&T, which does not work in many areas - which I mentioned. In Canada its even worse, only WIND supports it (which works only in the very downtown areas of about 3 cities).

      So no, it does not work in North America, as its use is near impossible in Canada and requires changing your address in many places in the US. A "working" phone is usable wherever high-speed data cellular coverage exists.

    26. Re:I'm so sick of this... by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      Err, replace AT&T with T-Mobile in my previous post. AT&T does not support it. T-Mobile is a network with much smaller coverage yet.

      Reality seems to disagree with some Nokia fanboys, but so it is.

    27. Re:I'm so sick of this... by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      It is true.

      Don't get confused by all these uncritical Nokia fanboys who seem to react violently to any news of Nokia being somewhat short of sainthood. In the US it is only T-Mobile (in some cities) that supports it and in Canada only WIND (which is really tiny and uses Rogers for coverage outside downtown areas of Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver - and N900 3G does not work on the Rogers network).

      Everywhere you will only get the EDGE GSM speeds, not 3G.

    28. Re:I'm so sick of this... by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind that in the US and in Canada the dominant cellular system for many decades was CDMA. GSM is a fairly recent development and it makes inroads slowly. Also the "standard" GSM frequencies were already allocated to other things and so it took a long while for networks with frequencies similar to those in Europe to emerge. Then add the vast geographical areas to the equation and you can see why the GSM coverage is absolutely lousy.

      Essentially any company that wants a phone that works in North America must add the extra "North America" frequencies to its sets or else you won't get any performance (or in some cases even a connection).

    29. Re:I'm so sick of this... by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Works fine on T-Mobile. I realize not everybody lives in their coverage area, but I had a T-Mo phone for years spent very little time outside their primary coverage (I live in the Seattle area). Full speed, and you don't even need a contract - they offer month-to-month SIM cards that work with any T-Mo or unlocked phone for very good rates.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    30. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Scooter's_dad · · Score: 1

      Don't forget webOS. It's the Zoroastrianism of smartphone religions. And yes, I posted this from my Palm Pre.

      --
      The road to hell is paved with Cat 5 cable.
    31. Re:I'm so sick of this... by lowrydr310 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The funny thing is that HTC seems to be one of the cooler manufacturers, in terms of allowing customization and root; they're typically haven't taken the same bold killswitch action that Motorola has done. This move on the G2 is surprising to me.

      I have an EVO (HTC Supersonic) right now. I didn't plan on rooting it as I was somewhat happy with the entire phone, but what really started to bug me is that I couldn't delete the default Sprint apps. Then with the 2.2 Froyo update, I didn't have the option to use the Android launcher/homescreen (instead of Sense). It's not that Sense was bad, I just wanted to try something else on my "OPEN PLATFORM" Android phone and was prevented from doing so.

      I finally decided to take the plunge, root it, and install a custom ROM, and I couldn't be happier! I now have control of my phone; I can install/uninstall/modify whatever I want. I don't need NFL/NASCAR/SprintZone/facebook/twitter/peep/flickr taking up space and constantly launching when I don't even have accounts set up for those services.

      Oddly enough, since I've tried some of the AOSP stuff I realized I don't necessarily hate Sense; the HTC Dialer, Contacts (People), MMS app, and even their Browser are quite nice.

    32. Re:I'm so sick of this... by illtud · · Score: 1

      Do you want to fix the "it was not cheep" as well, or is this an internet meme I've missed?

    33. Re:I'm so sick of this... by lowrydr310 · · Score: 1

      Is there any *good* quad band Android phone that is rootable and will work around the world? If so, I think I know what I want next.

    34. Re:I'm so sick of this... by angus77 · · Score: 1

      IgnoramusMaximus's post suggested that 3G support was limited to Europe, but in fact the N900 has been rolled out all over the world (India, the Gulf Arab states, Japan, Hong Kong...)

      Japan?! On what carrier?! I was looking for an N900 for months before I settled on my Desire. No info.

    35. Re:I'm so sick of this... by falsified · · Score: 1

      Yeesh. Sorry guys, true open source isn't worth dealing with dialup-quality speeds in 2010. Android comes close enough. *pets my badly scratched first-generation Droid*

      --
      HI, MY NAME IS ISAAC.
    36. Re:I'm so sick of this... by falsified · · Score: 1

      I promise I'm not playing dumb (though, on this, I may BE dumb), and this really, really isn't meant to be trollish or anything, but when does GSM/CDMA come into play?

      I'm from the United States, so it's never really been an issue. It's pretty hard to end up in another country here. The only other country I've been to with a cell phone in tow was China, and I was able to roam, with data, on their networks there. I have a Verizon-branded phone, which I understand uses the non-rest-of-the-world-friendly protocol. I was NOT on 3G in China, but I never tried data roaming in an area where I'd expect 3G (think rice paddies).

      Is there something fundamentally problematic with the US using a different system (besides some phones not being available here and vice-versa), or is this more of a "why is the US so weird" thing, like the metric system?

      --
      HI, MY NAME IS ISAAC.
    37. Re:I'm so sick of this... by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      This is a hardware problem actually. Nokia simply did not bother including all the frequencies in its 3G radio circuitry (but they did for the 2G radio - go figure).

      So no amount of software, open or otherwise, will solve this.

    38. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep in mind that in the US and in Canada the dominant cellular system for many decades was CDMA. GSM is a fairly recent development and it makes inroads slowly.

      Was and still is: Verizon and Sprint (CDMA) have more customers than AT&T and T-Mobile (GSM), and the smaller carriers are almost all CDMA.

      GSM was developed a few years before CDMA. CDMA took off earlier in the US, possibly because it's a better technology overall and especially better suited to large geographic areas, or maybe just because Qualcomm is an American company.

    39. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      with a (around) 450 € sticker price it was not cheep.

      But it let you flip the bird at the other phone manufacturers ...

    40. Re:I'm so sick of this... by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      GSM was developed a few years before CDMA.

      By "recent development" I meant "in North America". The respective histories of the standards themselves have little practical impact on what people can use here...

      As to the reasons of why CDMA over GSM? Who really knows? I've heard all sorts of stories, ranging from US government ties with Qualcomm all the way to unwillingness of carriers to allow SIM-card like technology because they hate consumer freedom (and GSM being "allowed" only after locked phones became the norm here) etc.

    41. Re:I'm so sick of this... by toadlife · · Score: 1

      Somewhere in Nevada Sue Lowden just felt a disturbance in the force.

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    42. Re:I'm so sick of this... by toadlife · · Score: 1

      In the US the only network that is capable of supporting the N900 is the AT&T,

      Your nickname is fitting in this case. The N900 works with T-Mobile's 3G network in the U.S.. Their 3G coverage is non-existent in rural areas but is decent in urban areas.

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    43. Re:I'm so sick of this... by lowlymarine · · Score: 2, Informative

      The GSM Galaxy S models (i9000, Captivate, and Vibrant) are easily rootable, quad-band, and are slated to definitely be getting Froyo in the next month or so (leaked builds are already widely available). Technologically, they're the best Android phones on the market. They're not perfect (no hardware keyboard, GPS is a bit flaky, and only the i9000 has properly-functioning HSUPA right now) but they're overall very solid models.

    44. Re:I'm so sick of this... by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      I already corrected myself immediately after posting. If you had bothered to read the thread before spouting...

    45. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Yaa+101 · · Score: 1

      He watched to many Tele-2 adverts...

    46. Re:I'm so sick of this... by silanea · · Score: 2, Informative

      What is different from Maemo than Android, iOS, or WinPhone 7 (when released)?

      Maemo - at least on the N900 - has a different target audience as the other ones you named. It is a full-blown Linux - apt-get and all. Many existing Linux applications can be run on it, with the hardware being the limiting factor. The downside is that the interface across applications is far from having the polish of iOS or even Android, and that there is little in terms of your 'typical' iPhone apps. The upside is that the platform is truly open and immensely powerful. You can ssh into your phone, you can run a full Apache server stack, you can run OpenOffice (or LibreOffice, for the Oracle haters) and so on. All the new libraries and technologies you see in current Linux distributions are - or will be - available on your phone, further closing the gap between your devices.

      Maemo (or MeeGo, its successor) still has a long way to go until it will be as accessible to 'normal' users and as visually polished as, say, iOS. But it offers a powerful platform for more specialised needs.

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    47. Re:I'm so sick of this... by ZvlvLord · · Score: 1

      Allright... Where should I start? It's not whether an OS is dead that matters but whether people find it useful. I have not really used a mobile phone since 2000. Or when I did use a phone it was never on, and people had to email me to tell me they would call me. So you could say I was not really into mobile phones. I started using one again a few months ago, for business. Guess which phone it is? A Nokia N95-8G that had been used for two years prior to me getting it. And you know what, EVERYTHING FUCKING WORKS ON IT. IT JUST WORKS. My only other small device (that I use actively) is a Nokia N810 with Maemo OS which is 'based' on Debian and has SERIOUS issues but I'm okay with it, I'm okay with it because I consider my N810 to be the best book reader out there, it has a shell, ssh, python, various compilers, source-code, documents and so on. Is it buggy? Hell yes. Am I happy with it? Yes. And that is all you need to remember about 'dead OSes' if people like it, it ain't dead.

      Take care,

      (a random coder who's owned almost every non-phone palm OS devices back from 1997. When I saw the N810, I knew I was home)

    48. Re:I'm so sick of this... by KingKaneOfNod · · Score: 1

      Uh, no, that's not it. It's the same reason nobody wants to hear anybody blindly mention how the iPhone solves everybody's problems.

      So ... if they had more iPhones in Afghanistan the war would be over?

    49. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For all the other faults of the N900 I can say this.

      The N900 is a small computer and Maemo and Meego is a Linux distribution so you have access to the whole range of apps a desktop Linux distro has, you just have to add the repositories. Naturally you don't want to install a lot of them because they are not optimised for a small screen but I have a ton of command-line apps installed.

    50. Re:I'm so sick of this... by bluephone · · Score: 1

      An OS can be useful and dead. DOS is useful, DOS is dead. Latin is useful, Latin is dead too.

      --
      jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
    51. Re:I'm so sick of this... by alantus · · Score: 1

      Japan?! On what carrier?! I was looking for an N900 for months before I settled on my Desire. No info.

      Nokia cellphones have not been sold in Japan for more than a year, they pulled out from this market.

    52. Re:I'm so sick of this... by dangitman · · Score: 1

      And you know what, EVERYTHING FUCKING WORKS ON IT. IT JUST WORKS.

      You say that as if it's something awesome. That's the absolute minimum standard anybody should expect from products they buy. Why would you buy products that don't work? For high-ticket items like digital devices, I expect a lot more than just working.

      (Although I'm not sure what your all-caps actually mean - they could mean amazement, but they also look something like anger, and a bit like "I forgot to take my meds," but in no way suggest "I'm happy with this decent product.")

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    53. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      Because in the mid-90s, GSM didn't exist, and CDMA was utterly and completely superior to GSM's core legacy technology (TDMA) in every meaningful way -- efficiency, robustness, call quality, the works. Sprint was the first company to own nationwide spectrum and build a brand new network from the ground up. Since they had no legacy baggage, and no need to interoperate with anyone, there was no reason for them to NOT go with CDMA. Verizon was originally a fairly small regional carrier that grew by acquiring lots of other regional carriers. It went with CDMA for the same reason as Sprint -- if you're building a brand new network with no legacy baggage CDMA was just plain better.

      Believe it or not, *AT&T* almost switched to CDMA around 2002 or 2003. They realized TDMA was a dead end and were about to shut down their analog network, and it came down to GSM or CDMA. The only reason they went with GSM was because their merger with Cingular was approved, and Cingular had already committed to GSM.

      For the record, CDMA has always supported an extension to SIM cards to achieve the exact same purpose. The problem is that Qualcomm allowed Sprint and Verizon to solder the chips into the phone instead of make them removable cards, and Sprint & Verizon did precisely that just because they could. Go to other countries that use CDMA, and the CDMA phones there are every bit as interoperable as GSM phones are in Europe.

    54. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. And to those who say Google isn't going to do anything, we know, that's why consumers need to voice their concerns and then the media may pick it up and eventually Google will fix it. I won't hold my breath though.

      "Schmidt called it a violation of the principles of open source [to stop the carriers modifying the OS to an unreasonable extent]."

      That's not what open source is about. It's not "hey, hijack my project." It's my work, my rules, simple as that.

    55. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      It's quite simple.

      1. People whine "why do I have to jailbreak my iphone, root my adroid"...

      2, You say "you bought the wrong phone, you should be rewarding openness instead of giving money to people who abuse you".

      3. Now they have two choices:

      3a admit their error, or

      3b say "no, my choice is good because [ fill in some complaint about the N900 or Nokia ]".

      Actual, real, human beings will always take option 3b, then repeat from 1.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    56. Re:I'm so sick of this... by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      Well, the end result was that CDMA ended-up with most of its users having non-portable, locked-down phones that you cannot unlock even if you paid someone (like you can with GSM phones). Add to this the fact that most of the world uses GSM and so most of the phones on the market are GSM and I see this as a losing battle in the long run for CDMA, technical superiority notwithstanding.

      The local CDMA telcos here all are desperately grafting pieces of 3G technology onto their CDMA towers and I think the writing is pretty much on the wall..

    57. Re:I'm so sick of this... by ncc74656 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Keep in mind that in the US and in Canada the dominant cellular system for many decades was CDMA. GSM is a fairly recent development and it makes inroads slowly.

      ~15 years ago is "fairly recent?" A few seconds' googling turned up this:

      Digital systems arrived in the U.S. in the early '90s, with the first U.S. TDMA system launching in 1993 and the first U.S. GSM systems in 1995. In 1996, the first [CDMA] systems were launched.

      I'd hesitate to call any of these dominant at any time in the present or past. TDMA is no longer with us, but GSM is supported by two of the four major carriers and CDMA is supported by the other two carriers. If any system had market dominance at any point, I'd have to say it was AMPS, which was the only game in town from the '80s through the mid-to-late-'90s.

      --
      20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
    58. Re:I'm so sick of this... by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

      "The funny thing is that HTC seems to be one of the cooler manufacturers, in terms of allowing customization and root; they're typically haven't taken the same bold killswitch action that Motorola has done. This move on the G2 is surprising to me. "

      Really? Didn't the write-protection on the Desire's system partition (that was only cracked like a week ago with an S-OFF Bootloader) tip you off? Of course, the last time I posted about that on Slashdot, I think I was modded troll... so I guess you're not the only one :p

      This is probably, unfortunately, just another sign of things to come :(

    59. Re:I'm so sick of this... by toadlife · · Score: 1

      If you had bothered to read the thread before spouting...

      You must be new here.

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    60. Re:I'm so sick of this... by mldi · · Score: 1

      Then with the 2.2 Froyo update, I didn't have the option to use the Android launcher/homescreen (instead of Sense). It's not that Sense was bad, I just wanted to try something else on my "OPEN PLATFORM" Android phone and was prevented from doing so.

      There are plenty of other launchers out there that IMO are better than Sense or the stock Android launcher. There'd have to be some serious lock-down to prevent you from switching to an alternative (don't even think they're allowed to lock it down that far?). As far as I know, it's only the stock Android launcher that was removed.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    61. Re:I'm so sick of this... by lowrydr310 · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. I'm using Launcher Pro at the moment; I wasn't sure if I could use it with the stock Sensed-up ROM. I heard LP is not OSS like ADW, however it I like it better.

      As far as I know you're still stuck with the Sense lockscreen on the stock ROM, but that's not necessarily a bad thing (sliding down is much easier for one handed operation than sliding to the right).

    62. Re:I'm so sick of this... by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Most of that software is going to run like ass on a phone, though. I'm gonna guess that 90% of the software in the repositories is not optimized for touch input or for a small screen. Command line tools should work, but most people would find them quite limited on such a device. This is also the same problem people who want a "real(desktop) OS" on a touchscreen tablet refuse to address.

    63. Re:I'm so sick of this... by rdnetto · · Score: 1

      It's true that most apps aren't optimized for touch input. Usually there's way around the inability to mouse over / right-click via the keyboard (e.g. Evince), or modifications are made in the port (e.g. rdesktop, which has a full screen button in the same style as most Maemo apps).

      --
      Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
    64. Re:I'm so sick of this... by silanea · · Score: 1

      Certainly. But I'd rather have a not so great application now and wait for a touch-optimised version than not having the application at all. The underpinnings of GNOME and the other environments and toolkits are slowly getting reworked for touch interfaces. It takes time. The more people file bugs against touch-unfriendly applications (and participate in the development and testing ;-) ) the faster it happens.

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    65. Re:I'm so sick of this... by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      Well, in many areas of the US and Canada CDMA is/was the only game in town. The reverse however is not true, I am not aware of any places where GSM coverage exists but no CDMA, even now.

      This is why terms like "dominant" are often used in reference to CDMA (although of course things are changing, iPhone being a major catalyst in the awareness/adoption of GSM).

    66. Re:I'm so sick of this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you install a modified apt-get (read: not crippled by Nokia) you can even install apps from the Ovi store through apt-get (the free ones at least).

  5. Driod does... by Jaysyn · · Score: 1, Funny

    Droid does.... screw you over if you want to customize it.

    --
    There is a war going on for your mind.
    1. Re:Driod does... by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is disingenuous. I have a Droid-X. Rooted it right out of the box and installed software that Verizon would prefer I didn't use (Wi-Fi tethering). Recently upgraded it to Froyo (Android 2.2) and was still able to root it.

      The Droid-X doesn't have a "kill switch" against rooting. It has a kill switch against installing a new OS. If you want to install a different ROM image than the Droid-X isn't for you. If you simply want to customize the Android OS to do whatever the hell you want then there is nothing in place to stop you. Root it, uninstall all the bloatware, run wi-fi tethering to your hearts content.... it will do all of those things.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Driod does... by GweeDo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually it only has a "kill switch" against unsigned /boot partitions. The /system partition is only signature checked after it is updated via the stock recovery partition. If you update things (or 100% replace) /system/ via something like Koush's Boot Strap Recovery that check never occurs. This is how some groups are working on getting AOSP based Android builds up and going for testing on the Droid X. As long as they can get it to work with the official /boot/ they are fine.

      Also, it should be clear what the "kill switch" is. It isn't an eFuse like so many falsely said early on. The bootloader simply won't hand over to /boot/ and sits in a state waiting for RSD Lite to flash a new properly signed SBF to it.

    3. Re:Driod does... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      If you can't install a new OS, then it isn't really rooted!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    4. Re:Driod does... by psetzer · · Score: 1

      Rooting in the strictest sense means being able to run with administrative user privileges. It's just that administrative user privileges isn't enough to actually change system files and still boot.

      --
      "Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is living in a state of sin." -- John von Neumann
    5. Re:Driod does... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, come on. Quit being so uptight and unnecessarily defensive. It is clearly meant as joke and the context of the story is limited to the G2.

  6. Glad I don't have a smartphone by vlm · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Yet another example of why I am sooooooo glad I don't own a smartphone and won't be buying one soon.

    You know how women like those drama tv shows, but discussing the shows bores everyone else to death? Yeah, smartphones are like that.

    Life's better when you ignore that whole segment of the marketplace (smartphones, I mean, not women)

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Geeky · · Score: 2, Funny

      Life's better when you ignore that whole segment of the marketplace (smartphones, I mean, not women)

      There's a name for women you get from the marketplace...

      --
      Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
    2. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by countSudoku() · · Score: 1

      I hear ya! I'm still using a Moto RAZR from 5 years ago and AT&T is seriously pissed that I haven't upgraded. I got an iPod Touch, but only for widescreen mini-movies, the App Store is a worthless joke. A smart phone cannot make one smart. Although, I would like the stock Android OS auto-installed on my iPod should it get "rooted". That would be fine with me.

      --
      This is the NSA, we're gonna geet U h@x0r5! Also, what is a h@x0r5?
    3. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet another example of why I am sooooooo glad I don't own a smartphone and won't be buying one soon.

      You know how women like those drama tv shows, but discussing the shows bores everyone else to death? Yeah, smartphones are like that.

      Life's better when you ignore that whole segment of the marketplace (smartphones, I mean, not women)

      Yet another example of why I am sooooooo glad I do own a smartphone, and will be buying one again in the future. You know how people need to get shit done, but discussing the shit bores everyone else to death? Yeah, people without smartphones are like that. Life's better when you mock that whole segment of the marketplace (people, I mean, not smartphones)

      FTFY

      PS) Don't piss down my back and tell me it's rainin'.

    4. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Microlith · · Score: 1

      Don't worry. All this tech that exists in the smartphone realm is going to slowly be pushed upwards into the rest of the market over time (which both Samsung and Apple are hinting at with their tablet docks) and they'll probably drag all this bullshit up with them.

    5. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Ecuador · · Score: 1

      I was like you. I always had the simplest phone that was good at making calls and sometimes carried with me a PDA (a Dell X51v) if I wanted to watch a movie, have gps etc or a linux netbook if I needed to keep connected with the machines at the office.
      Then the N900 came out. I always have with me a phone, a movie player, a gps and a linux machine. In addition, even with the netbook I never had the ability to SSH over 3G (I would have needed more than my simple phone for that, tether it etc), and I can do international calls that my voice plan prohibits (due to cost), since for the N900 calling via skype is as simple as hitting the key next to the phone call button. So, yeah, for domestic calls my old (and much smaller) phone was probably easier to use, but the N900 is not "bad" and saves me from carrying around extra devices, while doing things I couldn't in the past...

      --
      Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    6. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Lifyre · · Score: 3, Insightful

      AT&T probably isn't that pissed. Due to their pricing you're still subsidizing the new phones you never got...

      --
      I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
    7. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Knitebane · · Score: 1, Funny

      LEAVE BRITTANY ALONE!

      --
      "...history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." --Ghandi
    8. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!

      Wow.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    9. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Maybe the GP is just defending a region in France....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    10. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Again please back this up. After doing some research I've found that it won't work on AT&T and Rogers:

      http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/08/31/attrogers-3g-compatible-nokia-n900-not-so-fast/

      Which are the two most notoriously bad carriers in North America anyways.

      Also most of the world is not the US, and a lack of high-speed mobile Internet on a device with a WiFi adapter isn't a deal-breaker for everyone.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    11. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Ecuador · · Score: 1

      Wow... What ignorance.
      The "only a few European networks" you mention is basically all of Europe and that part of the world, no matter how remote and insignificant it seems to you, is where most of Nokia's customers are.
      But, where you are mostly wrong, is that the N900 DOES work on a fast 3G US network. I would get over 2mbps in Manhattan over T-Mobile's 3G network. Cell phone coverage in the US varies wildly so T-Mobile might not be the best in your area, but I lived in NY for 6 years and T-Mobile was great for me, plus it had the best policies (free unlocking of phones) and among the lowest prices.
      Furthermore, I don't know devices that can support all of the US 3G networks because almost every friggin' carrier uses a different one (of course even 2G service varies among carriers). Verizon (although abusive and expensive) has probably the best coverage, but it is a CDMA network. A CDMA N900 would basically work only on Verizon. Now, that would be restricting the marketplace. Ok, I guess they could have added the WCDMA 3G bands that AT&T uses since it is the only GSM carrier larger (not better) than T-Mobile (although no idea how easy/expensive it would be), but, hey, I thought everybody (with an iPhone) complained about AT&T's network ;)

      --
      Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    12. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you stay with the same company and don't take advantage of the free phone offers every two years, you're paying the subsidized cost and not getting the benefit. AT&T is probably quite content with the arrangement.

    13. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      While that is true, it also means he's past the "if you cancel now you have to pay us $$$ for early termination" limit. So when the Darth Vader 9000, with Anakin's pictures from the honeymoon preloaded, comes out he can switch instead being bound by the dark side.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    14. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      A person could always go with a carrier that actually treats its customers decently and allows you to purchase a no-contract, no-subsidy plan at a discount.

    15. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by peppepz · · Score: 1
      N900's "crippled radio" has a pretty standard 900 / 1700 / 2100 HSDPA support, which according to Wikipedia covers Europe, Asia, Africa, Oceania, Brazil, Canada, Dominican Republic and Venezuela. And apparently T-Mobile somewhere in the USA.

      That makes quite a lot of people and some of them might be reading Slashdot, don't you think?

    16. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia is wrong. In Canada only the WIND network is capable of these frequencies, which covers about 3 downtown areas in the country. The only national GSM carrier (Rogers) has different frequencies. Same for the US where only AT&T has the right frequencies. And so on with the rest of the world.

    17. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      Sorry it is T-Mobile (even lousier then AT&T) that is the only US carrier capable of supporting the N900. AT&T has different frequencies yet.

    18. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by dn15 · · Score: 1

      AT&T probably isn't that pissed. Due to their pricing you're still subsidizing the new phones you never got...

      My thoughts exactly. For how much I use it, a new smartphone is a steal at $200, yet the monthly service fee is the same whether I have a new phone or not. So every month I sit there with an old phone is another month I am not making the carrier pay for part of a newer, better phone. And you can "subsidize" even more of that price if you can manage to sell your old phone on Craigslist for a hundred bucks.

    19. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      Right. Ok, try Winnipeg Canada. Provincial capital. Exactly 0 (that is zero) networks with 3G capabilities for the N900. Anywhere in Manitoba? Saskatoon? Nova Scotia? Newfoundland?

      In the US, try anywhere in South Dakota, Montana, Nebraska etc. Zero 3G coverage.

      I could go on and on with a chorus of Nokia fanboys whining denials in the background.

      Yet all it would take is to add the AT&T/Rogers 3G bands and presto! Most of the US and Canada covered.

    20. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by theqmann · · Score: 1

      Looks like the breakdown of frequencies based on carrier is as follows:

      AT&T: 850/1900 GSM (mostly 850), and HSPDA (3G) 1900 TMobile: 850/1900 GSM (mostly 1900), and WCDMA (3G) 1700 Verizon: 850/1900 CDMA2000, and EVDO (3G) 1900 Sprint: 1900 CDMA2000, and EVDO(3G) 1900

      The other GSM frequencies used outside the US are 900 and 1800 bands.

      The N900 looks like it is a quad band (850/900/1800/1900) GSM radio, as well as a tri-band (900/1700/2100) UMTS radio. Data Source

    21. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, some of them even come with their own inflators... >:-D

    22. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Ecuador · · Score: 1

      First you complain about a device that has a limited marketplace, and then you start listing South Dakota and Montana?
      Are you just trying to follow your user name, or is this really an attempt at an argument?
      And no, I am certainly no Nokia fanboy - it is the first Nokia phone I ever bought, I always thought their phones were overpriced for what they offer (at least in Europe). But it is one thing to complain about the N900's real shortcomings and another to be angry about a European phone supporting all the European networks and only some of the US. They have put from infrared to FM receivers and transmitters in there, perhaps an extra 3G band was too much for their engineers, maybe their market analysts said it is not worth the hassle, who knows? In any case the US seems iPhone happy, which is the exact opposite of the N900.

      --
      Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    23. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      First you complain about a device that has a limited marketplace, and then you start listing South Dakota and Montana?

      You mean those are desolate wastelands where no cities exist, right? Nuclear winter-land? Or are they populated by the "lesser people", unlike first-rate citizens of say, New York?

      But it is one thing to complain about the N900's real shortcomings and another to be angry about a European phone supporting all the European networks and only some of the US.

      The "anger" comes from the repeated, unthinking "recommendations" of the N900 for problems with North American carriers or phones. Like in this very Slashdot article.

      Also, Nokia fans have promoted the phone extensively on Slashdot before it became apparent that it was not designed for North America (and thus a significant portion of Slashdot audience).

    24. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      My thoughts exactly. For how much I use it, a new smartphone is a steal at $200

      That supposes that (i) you want to have a data plan and (ii) you like any of the phones they have.

      I know a number of people that don't like any of the phones so they haven't upgraded in a while either.

      And now that AT&T requires a data plan for any phone with a QUERTY keyboard or touch screen - e.g. pretty much all their phones - your rate may go up if you get a new phone and didn't have a data plan before.

      Now, while you may think the $200 is cheap for the smart phone consider the changes in pricing as well. For me, I don't have a data plan. So to get a smart phone also means getting a data plan. If I got an iPhone that would be a data plan for 2 years. So $200 for the iPhone + $30*24 ($720) totaling $920 vs. $800 for the iPhone outright and no contract modifications. Though suppose you get a $200 phone with the minimum data plan - $5/month - $200 + $5*24 ($120) totaling $320 - did you really save much?

      Oh, and if you have multiple phones on your account (e.g. a family plan) they all have to have separate data plans - so that is $30 per phone. A family of 4 each with an iPhone and you're paying $120/month just for the data plans without even talking about anything else.

      Lesson: do the research first. It may be cheaper to buy a phone outside of AT&T or T-mobile paying full price for it than to get it through AT&T or T-mobile. Of course, any other U.S. Carrier screws you over since you can't change the phone without them knowing since there is not SIM card to just switch around.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    25. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Ecuador · · Score: 1

      It is kind of like talking to a wall...
      You are talking about market size and seem oblivious to the fact that while you are not talking about nuclear winter-lands, they are sub 1-million markets. You can't go by area size when you talk about markets, it is population. The fact is, the N900 supports the fastest 3G Network in the US and it was the only 10Mbit device on a network that supported that speed in the US when it launched. Yes, it is only in big cities, but you know what? THAT'S WHERE MOST PEOPLE HAPPEN TO LIVE. If you chose not to live in a big city you have many advantages over the city folk, but apparently good 3G coverage is not one of them. Rural US is not the majority of North America nor of Slashdot. Get over it and be happy with your iPhone or whatever.

      --
      Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    26. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      You shoot down your own arguments. First, no one is talking about Bum Fuck, Montana. We are talking many state and provincial capitals where the population is centered. Zero 3G coverage for N900 exists there. Secondly you conveniently point out that a network does exist that covers them and iPhone is using it. N900 cannot and will not. In short, Nokia chose not to give a shit about most of North America and just because the N900 works (sort of) in downtown Manhattan does not in any way invalidate this fact.

      My point stands. The phone is useless for high speed data in most of North America where other phones (like iPhone) do work.

    27. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This must be a joke.

    28. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      This must be a joke.

      How so? Go look at T-Mobile high-speed data coverage map and compare with AT&T high-speed data coverage map. The N900 works only on T-Mobile and no other network in the US.

    29. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by Lifyre · · Score: 1

      Even if he gets a "dumb" phone, it doesn't have to be a smart phone at all. ATT is laughing all the way to the bank because he is paying for a phone he never got.

      The only thing that might remotely irritate them is that he isn't under contract but as long as he's paying them money it really doesn't matter.

      --
      I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
    30. Re:Glad I don't have a smartphone by dn15 · · Score: 1

      Your points are true *if* you have to change your plan to get a new smartphone. I replaced my old smartphone with a new one and kept the exact same service plan. The only difference was whether or not they are subsidizing a new phone for me.

  7. It's not open source by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You get what you pay for.

    If you really want to have an "open" device, you should have supported the various open hardware platforms that eventually failed because of your lack of support.

    You can't really complain that you don't have choices when you made no effort to support the good choices that you had.

    1. Re:It's not open source by Nursie · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Openmoko failed as much because of bad management.

      Or at least the software platform did. Developers (paid ones) were just allowed to go off and do what they liked, so you got people spending six months rewriting the onscreen keyboard when half the time the sound subsystem didn't work (kind of important on a phone) along with a variety of other massive problems. Oh yeah, and the two or three full-stack rewrites they seemed to have going at any one time.

      It didn't even get good press amongst geeks because open was all it had going for it, and they burned through whatever capital they had by pissing into the wind.

      The N900 is the most FOSS-geek friendly thing I can find at the moment, and I love it.

    2. Re:It's not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course I can complain. *I* made that effort, but most *other* people did not, so *I* pay the price for *their* lack of caring that the mobile devices they buy obey some huge company rather than the purchaser.

    3. Re:It's not open source by catbutt · · Score: 1

      So you are saying that if I had supported open platforms, we'd all have them?

      That seems a bit counterintuitive to me. Seems more likely that if I had done that, nothing would be substantially different except that I had hurt myself a bit.

      (or is it possible that you making the all-too-common mistake of thinking that "everyone" is a single entity that makes decisions all together and should be rewarded and punished as such?)

    4. Re:It's not open source by Lumpy · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      EXACTLY.

      Only whiney bitches complain because their locked and subsidized phone does things to keep them out.

      If you could actually AFFORD the phone you buy a unlocked one.. Google tried to sell you one, none of you cheap bastards bought one.

      If you buy a G2 or a Droid or anything from a phone carrier all locked up, you deserve what you get.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    5. Re:It's not open source by Facegarden · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You get what you pay for.

      If you really want to have an "open" device, you should have supported the various open hardware platforms that eventually failed because of your lack of support.

      You can't really complain that you don't have choices when you made no effort to support the good choices that you had.

      Oh my fucking god man, whaaa whaa whaa. I really try to support open source, but THIS is the fucking reason why open source isn't more widely supported. Everyone developing for them says they're the best thing ever, and then when users don't adopt, the developers blame the USERS.

      WTF? Did you not ever take a business class in your life? Consumers do what they want, and you either provide them with what they want or you get left behind. If you don't see it that way, you will also get left behind. If consumers don't pick up your device, its YOUR FAULT.

      If the CEO of a poorly performing company came out and said "We lost money this year because consumers refuse to support us." that CEO would get fucking FIRED.

      This mentality upsets me so much, because every year I download Ubuntu and give it a shot. I *want* it to be awesome and I want to switch. But every time I have some menial little issue that ends up taking a week to sort out, and I give up. Then, when I mention that experience to people who strongly support linux, they say it was my fault. That "All you have to do it edit .asoundrc. If you won't RTFM we can't help you.", as if you just click "edit" and its done. No one on the forums could tell me *what* I needed to do in the editor (and I searched, and asked nicely - I know how to ask things on forums) and I *tried* reading the manual, and reading everything else I could find, but all I was trying to do was get my media center to properly mix the audio for 5.1 channel surround! In windows you just check a box. In linux, I spent a week on it and then gave up.

      As long as people keep developing crap software and then blaming it on the user, they will never succeed. That said, I am still excited for Ubuntu 10.10. Just like I was for 7.10,8.4,8.10,9.4,9.10, and 10.4. Lets hope *this* time its money...

      -Taylor

      --
      Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
    6. Re:It's not open source by madbavarian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you could actually AFFORD the phone you buy a unlocked one.. Google tried to sell you one, none of you cheap bastards bought one.

      The G2 is also available for $500 from T-Mobile free and clear with no contract. It will be interesting to see what justification T-Mobile comes out with for locking down the bootloader on the G2 when it is bought outright like this.

    7. Re:It's not open source by dara · · Score: 1

      I don't think companies should give up on this model (selling and supporting an unsubsidized phone). Google failed, but my understanding is they didn't have the right support infrastructure (and the phone with the carriers available had too many initial problems requiring support). But a better phone and organized support could still succeed in the US (elsewhere is easier I hear). But there needs to be better promotion of how much it will cost you assuming you don't break your phone in the first 2 years (most won't) compared to plans that subsidize phones. I don't even know what the best US carriers are for offering unsubsidized plans. How much cheaper are they per month? Since phones are often subsidized $350 or more, they'd have to be $15/mo cheaper compared to a 2 year subsidized phone plan.

      I'm sure most slashdotters know of this phone (geeksphone.com, great video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC1M77xKn6w) , but I just found out about it - out of the box rooted. That's the way all phones should be, but how many will by this one (which is seriously outdated now - I'd only consider their next model).

    8. Re:It's not open source by Fizzl · · Score: 1

      This...
      Mod up parent etc...

      I bought LG GT540 because that was the only android phone I could afford. Do I complain that there is no flashing support? Do I complain that it is only 1.6 Android? Do I complain that it sometimes defaults to Russian character set?
      No! Because I made the decision to buy this piece of shit.
      Yes, if I could afford it, I would have bought a dev phone from Google. Then I would have top-spec phone with all the freedoms. But whining that my 200€ phone does not give the features and freedoms as the €600 phone is just retarded.
      Oh, hmm.. Just realized my phone is unlocked and is fully paid for. Anyway, parents point stands.

    9. Re:It's not open source by darthdavid · · Score: 1

      I don't know about Ubuntu but Debian's had 'check a box' surround sound support for a while now and since Ubuntu is Debian based...

    10. Re:It's not open source by TheCRAIGGERS · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Google tried to sell you one, none of you cheap bastards bought one.

      I think you have it all wrong.

      The Nexus One only was available for T-Mobile (not exactly the biggest carrier state-side) and AT&T, which was going up against the extremely popular iDevices.

      Lack of consumer demand didn't kill the device- the boardroom politics did. Why does AT&T love the iPhone? It's surely not the infrastructure problems they gained with the mass of users all wanting to watch videos of dogs skateboarding on Youtube. It's the fact that they have a highly desirable device that you can only get on their network. Even if AT&T wasn't already a household name, they are now attached to a device that is. That's big.

      Compare this to the N1. Google comes to Verizon and wants to sell them on a new smartphone that they will have zero control over and is not going to win them any new customers at all, because it will exist on all carriers. Why would Verizon take the time and energy to get the handset working on their system for no gain, when they can work with Motorola and create a snazzy new Droid that, just like AT&T's iPhone, will only exist on their network thus attracting new customers. Not only that, but accepting Google's new phone would possibly hurt their relationship with their other business partners- I'm sure that there were some heated discussions between Verizon and Motorola's bigwigs when the N1 was first announced, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some bad blood between them and Google seeing how Google worked with them on the original Droid right before announcing their own super phone.

      No, the N1 experiment never even got off the runway. It was an experiment to see if a device catering directly to geeks (who else would pay an extra $300 for an unlocked phone?) would have enough marketing power to sustain itself, and of course forcing carriers to open up a bit. It sadly failed on both accounts.

    11. Re:It's not open source by Facegarden · · Score: 1

      I don't know about Ubuntu but Debian's had 'check a box' surround sound support for a while now and since Ubuntu is Debian based...

      Hmm. Well 9.04 certainly didn't have it. I'll check again when i get 10.10 going...

      --
      Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
    12. Re:It's not open source by Message · · Score: 1

      IMHO, the main reason the carriers try to stop hacking is tethering... a lot of the Android hacking community seems to be how to get tethering for free.

    13. Re:It's not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Install PDAnet without doing *any* hacking. Got any more brain busters?

    14. Re:It's not open source by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Hey, how about a solution to the problem that doesn't involve time travel? And being a condescending prick?

    15. Re:It's not open source by similar_name · · Score: 1

      When you say subsidized do you mean paid for through monthly payments with murky pricing plans? Isn't that kind of like saying the bank subsidizes my car because they gave me a loan?

    16. Re:It's not open source by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      The TMO plan includes unlimited data.

    17. Re:It's not open source by similar_name · · Score: 1

      I know I'm a dreamer but it would be nice if phone companies attracted new customers with things like pricing and service.

    18. Re:It's not open source by kaiser423 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Original droid was unlocked, only required a simple root and is absolutely hackable. I love mine to death.

      Samsung's Galaxy S line is "hack" friendly, as is they don't go out of their way to prevent custom ROMs. I'm really hoping that everyone decides to just put up fences to keep most people out, but allows tinkerers to play, rather than this Fort Knox crap.

    19. Re:It's not open source by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The main reason no-one bought one was they did the math ; if you are sufficiently organised to set a calendar event to remind you to change your phone plan at the end of your contract, it's cheaper to get the phone on a contract. If you actually use the capacity of the larger plans (as opposed to just going for the more expensive plan to get a phone subsidy), then it's DEFINITELY cheaper to get the phone with a contract.

      If they offered an equivalent talk + data plan, cheaper over 2 years than the cost of a smartphone, I'd be all over it. But they don't.

    20. Re:It's not open source by TheCRAIGGERS · · Score: 1

      The 'coverage war' between Verizon and AT&T is the first semi-competitive behavior I've seen from the mobile carriers in a long time. Still, they both have nearly identical (if not totally equal) price points, so its moot.

      Still, the phones I can get on a certain carrier is part of their service. I could go with one of those cheap carriers around here and pay only $40 for unlimited data and more minutes than I'll ever use. But they don't have any good smart phones, so I stay with Verizon for now.

    21. Re:It's not open source by TheCRAIGGERS · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they will eventually do the math and figure out that the phones that are rootable are bought more, and then they will start offering that as a feature.

      More than likely they will just keep thinking it was the styling or the market conditions or the marketing campaign and keep right on going as normal.

    22. Re:It's not open source by rwa2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm writing from my laptop tethered to a myTouch Slide running CyanogenMOD and Barnacle wifi tethering, so I'm getting a kick out of these comments.

      Getting about 1Mbps HSDPA from inside a building. I really notice when it drops down to 64kbps EDGE, though.

      I try to be responsible with me tethering though... I'm not running any streaming music or anything. I've generated about 5MB down, 1MB up in the past hour.

      I don't see why they would get so upset about tethering when people running Google Navigation on cross-country drives or Youtube vids would burn through much, much more. Aside from if they want to charge extra for that feature (like SMS, yech... charging extra to use low QoS?)

    23. Re:It's not open source by sjames · · Score: 1

      It didn't help that the major carriers charge you for a "free" phone even when you bring your own. Unbundle that where you optionally pay for a phone in monthly installments OR bring your own and that will change.

      The carriers don't want that since then they can't dictate what the phone can do. They especially don't want the phones using free WiFi connections and VoIP to bypass their inflated charges. It took an action by the federal courts to force the Bells to let you plug any compliant device you wanted into the POTS system.

    24. Re:It's not open source by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      That's how I bought mine. I guess I need to call and get the unlock code then try to root it and see what happens.

    25. Re:It's not open source by Intrinsic · · Score: 1

      Speaking of which, when I upgrade to ubuntu 10 they changed the bootloader and now it won't work with my multi-boot system, I agree with what this guys is saying they need to make sure whatever they do its compatible with how we operate instead of us having to always change to meet the new methods the distros use to handle things or it will never have enough impact to make a difference.

    26. Re:It's not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh my fucking god man, whaaa whaa whaa. I really try to support open source, but THIS is the fucking reason why open source isn't more widely supported.

      Uh, you know that Android is one of the most supported OS's now, don't you? I think the point you are missing is that you can't just blindly support "open source" and hope some magical fairy is going to protect your rights. Too bad the rest of your post was completely off topic.

    27. Re:It's not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It didn't help that the major carriers charge you for a "free" phone even when you bring your own.

      One major carrier does not.

    28. Re:It's not open source by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If the CEO of a poorly performing company came out and said "We lost money this year because consumers refuse to support us." that CEO would get fucking FIRED.

      Seems to work great for the MAFIAA. They even get senators fawning over them because of it. Where's my senators?
      (yes, no need to spell out the painfully obvious fact that I don't bribe senators).

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    29. Re:It's not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm having the same fight now with Windows 7 but unfortunately your argument won't hold. I just can't see why management insists.

    30. Re:It's not open source by sjames · · Score: 1

      Who is that and how much cheaper are they when you bring your own?

    31. Re:It's not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are mentioned by name in the summary and about twenty bucks monthly.

    32. Re:It's not open source by marcello_dl · · Score: 0

      > Consumers do what they want...

      You mean that consumers want to throw money at bluescreening OSes, music player with usb interface that can't do proper usb storage, pads with cams usb and sd coming as an option, stuff that bricks when you tamper with it, updates that remove capability as general as being able to install an OS?

      IMHO: Advertisement backed media tell what consumers should want, consumers use what they perceive as most popular because they haven't got a clue nor time to get a clue, and their issues are lost in the sea of noise and astroturfing.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    33. Re:It's not open source by NickDngr · · Score: 3, Funny

      You're doing it wrong. From http://bash.org/?152037:

      #152037 +(3036)- [X]
      <dm> I discovered that you'd never get an answer to a problem from Linux Gurus by asking. You have to troll in order for someone to help you with a Linux problem.
      <dm> For example, I didn't know how to find files by contents and the man pages were way too confusing. What did I do? I knew from experience that if I just asked, I'd be told to read the man pages even though it was too hard for me.
      <dm> Instead, I did what works. Trolling. By stating that Linux sucked because it was so hard to find a file compared to Windows, I got every self-described Linux Guru around the world coming to my aid. They gave me examples after examples of different ways to do it. All this in order to prove to everyone that Linux was better.
      * ion has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
      <dm> brings a tear to my eye... :') so true..
      <dm> So if you're starting out Linux, I advise you to use the same method as I did to get help. Start the sentence with "Linux is gay because it can't do XXX like Windows can". You will have PhDs running to tell you how to solve your problems.
      <dm> this person must be a kindred spirit of mine

      --
      Yoda of Borg am I! Assimilated shall you be! Futile resistance is, hmm?
    34. Re:It's not open source by AltairDusk · · Score: 1

      Google tried to sell you one, none of you cheap bastards bought one.

      I bought the Nexus One with AT&T 3g bands right after it was announced, I was sad to see Google give up on the idea as soon as they did. That was one of our best chances to break the current US carrier model and get something more advantageous for everyone.

    35. Re:It's not open source by Facegarden · · Score: 1

      > Consumers do what they want...

      You mean that consumers want to throw money at bluescreening OSes, music player with usb interface that can't do proper usb storage, pads with cams usb and sd coming as an option, stuff that bricks when you tamper with it, updates that remove capability as general as being able to install an OS?

      IMHO: Advertisement backed media tell what consumers should want, consumers use what they perceive as most popular because they haven't got a clue nor time to get a clue, and their issues are lost in the sea of noise and astroturfing.

      Ugh. "Consumers are sheeple. They only do what big media tells them. My product died because I was fighting the man. Whaa whaa."

      I don't like Apple's wacky methods and I think they could do just fine without locking down the iphone, but I don't think they're successful because they *tell* people to buy their stuff (though if anyone has that power, it's them).

      I might not like what they do, but you have to admit that the iPod was a great product (especially with iTunes) and people who bought one may have liked mass storage, but that's not why you buy a media player! If you want mass storage to be able to put music on it... well, get over it. My android phone is just mass storage and I got so sick of the lack of organization I started using doubletwist, which is... just like iTunes!

      People buy windows because it works, they bought iPods because they work, and they buy iPhones because they work. The OP was complaining that no one bought OpenMoko devices, but you know what? I bet they were crap compared to an iPhone!

      No one cares that it can SSH into your debian server if it can't fucking browse the web, go texty texty, and listen to music.

      So go ahead and keep blaming customers for their choices. You'll never own a fucking successful business in your life.
      -Taylor

      --
      Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
    36. Re:It's not open source by Facegarden · · Score: 1

      You're doing it wrong. From http://bash.org/?152037:

      #152037 +(3036)- [X]
      <dm> I discovered that you'd never get an answer to a problem from Linux Gurus by asking. You have to troll in order for someone to help you with a Linux problem.
      <dm> For example, I didn't know how to find files by contents and the man pages were way too confusing. What did I do? I knew from experience that if I just asked, I'd be told to read the man pages even though it was too hard for me.
      <dm> Instead, I did what works. Trolling. By stating that Linux sucked because it was so hard to find a file compared to Windows, I got every self-described Linux Guru around the world coming to my aid. They gave me examples after examples of different ways to do it. All this in order to prove to everyone that Linux was better.
      * ion has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
      <dm> brings a tear to my eye... :') so true..
      <dm> So if you're starting out Linux, I advise you to use the same method as I did to get help. Start the sentence with "Linux is gay because it can't do XXX like Windows can". You will have PhDs running to tell you how to solve your problems.
      <dm> this person must be a kindred spirit of mine

      Haha, oh, man, that is the best idea ever. I will so use that. Thank you!

      --
      Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
    37. Re:It's not open source by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Yes, but using unlimited data access on the phone itself is different than using it to tether to a real computer in the same way that using an unmetered water hose to fill up a drinking glass is different than using it to fill up a swimming pool.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    38. Re:It's not open source by melikamp · · Score: 1

      If my N900 was a woman... You can guess what would happen next.

      This example clearly shows what can be done with free software (running alongside of some proprietary device drivers and such, but that's a different issue). Unrooted, it functions like a super-awesome consumer smart-phone with a gecko browser + firefox addons. Rooted (which takes a good part of a minute), it runs much of the GNU userland, python, bash, vim, emacs, ssh(d), fennec (firefox), lynx, pidgin, even latex, which I cannot possibly imagine to be useful to anyone on that screen. Oh, and a few more hundred free applications. One can run most of these while still unrooted, of course, but why? My biggest and pretty much the only gripe is insufficient RAM.

      I hope that Nokia won't give up and will deliver MeeGo running on beefed up hardware, with less, or preferably none of the proprietary crap. I don't mind paying more, since I do get some of the best hardware available.

    39. Re:It's not open source by melikamp · · Score: 1

      OH, and mplayer. Does your iPhone run mplayer? I din't think so...

    40. Re:It's not open source by angus77 · · Score: 1

      If you really want to have an "open" device, you should have supported the various open hardware platforms that eventually failed because of your lack of support.

      Some of us would like to, but here in Japan, we get only what the carriers offer. Even if I bought an unlocked OpenMoko, I couldn't use it.

    41. Re:It's not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is completely unfair. If you bought a system designed for GNU/Linux you wouldn't have the issues you're complaining about. People keep complaining about Ubuntu and free software yet it isn't the problem. The problem is that they've bought a system designed for Microsoft Windows, learned Microsoft technology, and now expect it to be Microsoft. It isn't. Buy a Penguin, (www.thinkpenguin.com), get something designed for GNU/Linux, and free software and then make a comparison. Instead of making an unfair comparison and complaining about problems that have nothing to do with GNU/Linux and everything to do with the hardware and your own failures in picking up the tools for the platform. For the majority of the users Ubuntu is allot easier than Mac or Windows. They aren't dealing with viruses or spyware, users can actually get a md5sum of an ISO (unlike on Mac), and things aren't so slow as to be unbearable (MS Windows-even or especially on new hardware).

    42. Re:It's not open source by lord3nd3r · · Score: 1

      you must have asked for help from the guys at freenode..

      --
      g0t b33r?
    43. Re:It's not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i read somewhere yesterday that ubuntu was african for I can't instal debian.

      i laughed.

    44. Re:It's not open source by toadlife · · Score: 1

      My windows mobile phone does.

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    45. Re:It's not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Yes they do. T-mobile offers a $20/month discount for not getting a contract. That is $480 over 2 years. In exchange you forfeit your $300 discount on the phone. That makes sense to me. I give them 300 now, and they give me 480 back over time. I have 500 minutes, unlimited text, and unlimited data for just $60/mo. T-mobile is the only american company doing this, but if you can live with the smaller network, it's a great deal. I didn't buy a nexus one because I bought a Motorola CLIQ instead. I didn't want to wait the extra month for the Nexus One to come out. I also didn't want to pay 530 for the Nexus One when the CLIQ was only 350. At that time, I didn't think Motorola was going to abandon the CLIQ.

    46. Re:It's not open source by phek · · Score: 1

      not making changes with how the user operates will cause stagnation. Just look at windows, there's really very little difference between win95 and vista (other than maybe networking). As it is, most linux distro's try not to change things too drastically but there is constant change which works out for the better. If you're worried about things not working, don't install a new distro version right when it comes out, wait until it's been out for 6 - 12 months before installing it (like everyone does with windows). Perhaps if you installed 10.4 now it would work out of the box better than it did 6 months ago?

      And people complaining about things being easy like they are in windows, get over it. Windows wasn't easy to learn either however you've put in the time since most likely you started using computers to learn it, why should you be able to switch and be familiar enough to be an expert at it in 2 weeks?

      All that being said, i'm not advocating linux and can't stand these dumb debate wars. If i'm going to take a side on this war, count me in on the plan9 side.

    47. Re:It's not open source by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      T-mobile. They have a website, knock yourself out.

    48. Re:It's not open source by KingKaneOfNod · · Score: 1

      The N900 is the most FOSS-geek friendly thing I can find at the moment, and I love it.

      Actually I saw RMS speaking at Melbourne University a couple of weeks ago, and he recommended HTC mobiles running Android, because apparently you can remove the non-free software and everything that is left is GPL.

    49. Re:It's not open source by drDugan · · Score: 1

      I am in exactly this situation, and I'm NOT happy. I bought the G2 and the lockdowns are multiple and very annoying. I cannot delete any pre-loaded apps, including Amazon MP3, FaceBook, web2GO, and like 20 other branded apps, all sitting on there with the "uninstall" button grayed out. WTF? I was told point blank at time of sale: "This is stock Android 2.2". Totally not true.

      I went back to the TMO store today to return it, only to find one rep at the store tell me flat out: just wait, and root it. This person said, "I can't wait until I can root mine. What we did is so annoying. They will figure it out, and it will be rooted." If not, I was told I have 30 days to send it back without penalty. If I can't control a computer I bought for $500, I most certainly will return it with a little fuck you to TMO going to everyone I know telling them of my experience. I got her card, and I'll be back in there on day 25 talking about rooting options or returns.

      I hope TMO execs read this. I've been a loyal customer for 8 years.

    50. Re:It's not open source by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Ok, odd.... I suppose he's right, there are closed modules on the N900, you'd have a very hard time fully replacing the OS. The userland stuff would be easy enough, though IIRC the contacts app is closed at the moment.

      Was it worth it/interesting going to see him?
      He's coming here to Perth in a couple of weeks and I was toying with the idea of going along.

    51. Re:It's not open source by Wyvern2005 · · Score: 1

      The Nexus was available for T-Mo and ATT also. If you check the xda forums, the geeks there love their N1's..if there were any problems, they were mostly hardware quality issues. I'm hoping that Google has another go at the open phone thing...

      --
      Oops..was I supposed to push that button?
    52. Re:It's not open source by walshy007 · · Score: 1

      As long as people keep developing crap software and then blaming it on the user, they will never succeed.

      What people define as "crap" varies, I would consider windows crap, and os x passable but needs work, but my needs are likely significantly different than your own.

      What you needed was an experienced linux developer to set up your linux distro with you for your needs, the newbies tend to outnumber those with 10+ years of experience about 20 to one but there are still some willing people about.

      Of the many people I have managed to switch to linux, none have had any issues because I set it up for them, but I have no doubt if they had tried it themselves they would have likely ran into some tiny problem such as you did. (although most wouldn't write it off over a surround sound issue alone though).

      In regards to the comment on the n900, the n900 comes out of the box with everyone most people expect from a phone with the ability to tinker as a bonus.

      But in this case I'd put the n900's failure down to lack of advertising and lack of selling them on carriers plans. (here at least you have to purchase one outright from overseas, not cheap)

    53. Re:It's not open source by Eivind+Eklund · · Score: 1

      They're only part of the service because your cell phone / mobile service market is badly regulated, making it not work as an efficient market.

      As an example of a more efficient market, I'll describe the Norwegian market:

      - Population density: 12.7 / km2 (the US is 31.6).
      - Almost complete coverage required by law for the major providers ("competition providers" are allowed to use roaming agreements to get the same effect)
      - All prices are to include all applicable taxes, fees, etc. Company says "It's 99 NOK", customer pays 99 NOK
      - All cell phone ads have to include the cost without subsidy, the type of subscription you're required to have to get the subsidy, and the cost of the subscription for the binding period
      - Early termination fee limited to maximum of 1500 NOK ($260) including VAT, discounted over the subscription lockin period. Lockin period AFAIR limited to one year.
      - Major network owners required to bulk resell minutes to the companies that want to buy them, at standard terms (based on cost +), terms reviewed annually by the local equivalent of the FCC
      - The norwegian equivalent of the FCC runs a comparison shopper site for telecommunications, Telepriser.no. All providers are required to report their up-to-date prices to this website, with penalties for non-compliance (I believe up to losing their license, though that's never happened in practice).
      - All phones are forced to have five years warranty against manufacturing defects (this is not a specific telecom regulation; it's a result of general legislation, where all items with a "presumed long use time" has to have five years warranty; the rest have to have two years.)

      Net result:
      - Cheapest subscription I know about: Free, including 60 outgoing minutes and 60 sent SMSes per month. You pay if you go above that. Incoming calls and SMSes are free unless you're in a different country. Bar one speciality provider, all providers I know about have solutions with no monthly fee and will market them.
      - Cheapest phone I know about, unlocked: About $60 (including VAT)
      - Supposedly the fastest data network in the world (at one of the providers)
      - Fairly reasonable data prices: $17.16 / month for 5GB (capped transfer), or $15.42 / 0.5GB / month baseline plus up to $3.46/day for using more (maxing out at $107 for unlimited use)
      - Almost all phones available with any provider (iPhone was exclusive for a month or two, possibly because of the integration work for it)

      That's what comes out of a working, efficient market. Which means it has to be regulated to actually give real competition, and *force* the sellers to give maximum information to the consumers.

      Eivind.

      --
      Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
    54. Re:It's not open source by penguinchris · · Score: 1

      I ran Google Navigation for a cross-country drive (CA to NY) and it really didn't use that much bandwidth. I don't have the figure at hand but it did not bump up my monthly average very much, if at all. I didn't use the satellite/aerial photo view, except on a couple of occasions, so it just needs to get the street data which (I hope for their sake) is in a vector format.

      On the other hand, if you're not really careful, browsing the internet via a tethered laptop easily uses a *lot* of data. Your 5mb figure shows that you are indeed being really, really careful. Most people won't be, and they wouldn't realize if their laptop is part of a bot net either, which is why the carriers are so wary of making it cheap and easy to tether.

      I have an unlocked, rooted Nexus One, and I have it set up to tether (with an app before 2.2, and now using the built-in capability). I have only used it a couple of times and only to test it, because either I'm on the move and can use the internet directly on the phone, or I'm stationary someplace that has wifi. I, too, would be careful about bandwidth if placed in a situation where I had to use my laptop tethered, of course. I suppose I could also mention that I have the phone with the wrong 3G frequencies for my current carrier, so I'm stuck on EDGE ;)

    55. Re:It's not open source by happydan · · Score: 1

      I just paid £450 for a HTC Desire HD. I also switched to a £15/mo 30 day contract with 350 mins, 350 texts and 1 geebee data.

      Why would anyone willingly tie themselves to a 24 month contract? How would that ever encourage the networks to improve service?

    56. Re:It's not open source by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Yes they do.

      and it's not YOUR car until you pay off the loan, they hold the title by placing a Lein on it.

      It's THEIR car until you pay it off.

      Same as "your" phone. It's THEIRS until you pay it off by finishing your contract. Problem is phone companies can tell you to stuff it when the contract is over and you ask for the phone to be unlocked. There are laws that keep banks from doing that to your car.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    57. Re:It's not open source by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      T mobile gives you a $20.00 a month discount for using your own phone. that's $480 over the life of a contract.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    58. Re:It's not open source by TheCRAIGGERS · · Score: 1

      Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I can say why I do it.

      Where I live, I only had two options for cell service- Verizon and Alltel. If you recall, Verizon bought out Alltel, so now my only option is Verizon. Until Sprint and AT&T get off their butts and add some towers in my area, (I live in a city with 160,000+ population and AT&T still doesn't even have 3G here) I have little choice.

      So, if I want decent reception, it's Verizon or nothing. And since that's the case why wouldn't I save some money on my cell phone?

    59. Re:It's not open source by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      LOL ITunes is easy? You think you have a song because it's listed and the file is who knows where. You have to search documentation to select what to sync on the ipod. Amarok has a few glitches with import/export of playlists IIRC, and it's not the super intuitive player either, but I'd take it over itunes any day if I owned an Ipod.

      Also you incorrectly assume that I ascribe to poor consumer choices the failure of openmoko and similar open stuff. It seems not so. Pandora, the touchbook, and others seem to suffer from high demand and insufficient production for one reason or another. The N900 is probably less palatable for the carriers and devs because the user is unrestricted. The one laptop per child is another example where mismanagement is more to blame than lack of consumer demand.

      I simply called BS on the argument that consumers decide.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    60. Re:It's not open source by Facegarden · · Score: 1

      LOL ITunes is easy? You think you have a song because it's listed and the file is who knows where. You have to search documentation to select what to sync on the ipod. Amarok has a few glitches with import/export of playlists IIRC, and it's not the super intuitive player either, but I'd take it over itunes any day if I owned an Ipod.

      Also you incorrectly assume that I ascribe to poor consumer choices the failure of openmoko and similar open stuff. It seems not so. Pandora, the touchbook, and others seem to suffer from high demand and insufficient production for one reason or another. The N900 is probably less palatable for the carriers and devs because the user is unrestricted. The one laptop per child is another example where mismanagement is more to blame than lack of consumer demand.

      I simply called BS on the argument that consumers decide.

      What the fuck? "You think you have a song because it's listed and the file is who knows where."
      I know exactly where the file is, because I know how to right click and select "Open in windows explorer".

      And because I just let iTunes organize my music. It keeps everything in my iTunes folder, which I select, and keeps everything in folders like Artist\Album.

      I know a lot of crotchety old users who got all irate that iTunes does that, because they got used to winamp where you *had* to arrange your folders, and they don't like them being organized any other way. But it's a fucking database, just let itunes deal with it. And learn how to right click if I need the file. It works great.

      I really don't have much sympathy for people that hate something because they don't know anything about it.

      And you call BS on the argument that consumers decide... but they do! They might not all be the most sensible decisions, but you have to appeal to them. Hell, even if you were right, and people just do what they're told, then the people running the openmoko project were still idiots (or, more likely, just underfunded) because THEY weren't out there getting in consumer's faces.

      This all started because the OP said openmoko died because *we* didn't support it. That's just fucking bullshit, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. Openmoko failed because they either didn't market well, didn't make a good enough product, or both. There is no other excuse. That's just how business works. And as long as OSS projects are run by people like the OP, we'll never get anywhere. So I actually agree with you that the problem can also be mismanagement, I'm just not buying the "You didn't support me!" bullshit.

      -Taylor

      --
      Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
    61. Re:It's not open source by jrobertray · · Score: 1

      I did what you did, but dropped the text portion to save another $10/mo. I send/receive texts with Google Voice instead. I get frustrated with T-Mobile's service but I am happy they give me the freedom to customize my plan and offer a no-contract option.

      I even got the phone at the subsidized price. But I canceled my contract after a few days and switched to a no-contract plan. I believe I ended up paying two activation fees. Google was supposed to bill me for the difference between subsidized and un-subsidized, but they haven't caught up with me yet.

    62. Re:It's not open source by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > I know exactly where the file is, because I know how to right click and select "Open in windows explorer".

      Except that it did not work, songs were not copied on any library. Under which conditions I dunno, likely they were listened from a CD or gotten in a usb key. Might happen to others? http://www.google.com/search?q=itunes+loosing+songs

      > I really don't have much sympathy for people that hate something because they don't know anything about it.

      I really love when people use the "linux defense" on apple software. I knew about Open in windows explorer - that one option is even fairly well put in the UI. Thanks anyway.

      > ...This all started because the OP said openmoko died because *we* didn't support it. That's just fucking bullshit,

      I agree with you on that. Open stuff must first be adopted by geeks, and only later it may become palatable to the public.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    63. Re:It's not open source by Facegarden · · Score: 1

      > I know exactly where the file is, because I know how to right click and select "Open in windows explorer".

      Except that it did not work, songs were not copied on any library. Under which conditions I dunno, likely they were listened from a CD or gotten in a usb key. Might happen to others? http://www.google.com/search?q=itunes+loosing+songs

      > I really don't have much sympathy for people that hate something because they don't know anything about it.

      I really love when people use the "linux defense" on apple software. I knew about Open in windows explorer - that one option is even fairly well put in the UI. Thanks anyway.

      > ...This all started because the OP said openmoko died because *we* didn't support it. That's just fucking bullshit,

      I agree with you on that. Open stuff must first be adopted by geeks, and only later it may become palatable to the public.

      Ah... *that* losing song issue. I figured that one out years ago. If you don't tell itunes to organize your music, and then you download some torrent and drag the music into itunes, it just references the file from wherever you torrented it. If, then, down the line you decide to clean up your torrent folder and delete the music, itunes doesn't know its gone until you try to play it, and then it can't find it.

      Its really not a terrible design. Back when hard drives were small, apple didn't want to copy by default. One of the top search results in that search you linked is from 2003. And the rest seem to be from 2008 or older. I think apple finally decided to set the default to "Organize my library for me" where it copied it to the itunes forlder and the problem effectively went away for people.

      Both methods seem reasonable to me. How would you handle it?

      I really don't see how you can fault itunes for that. What does Amarok do to handle it? Probably the same thing. I'm not thrilled about how bloated itunes is, but if you have a decent computer, I still think its the best music software out there.

      And the "linux defense" makes sense here. It *doesnt* make sense when people tell you you're supposed to read a bunch of documentation and figure out what commands to type... but realizing that your files are gone because you deleted the folder they were in? That has to be something the user figures out. The only thing I would have done is added a prompt that says "The files were added from folder:xxx which no longer exists. To avoid this, you may want to let itunes organize your music."

      But who knows, I might be crazy trying to have helpful messages. Still, it wasn't a terrible design the way it was, and I'm not much sure what would be a better way, except what apple *did* do, which is setting the default to err on the side of wasted space, not lost files.
      -Taylor

      --
      Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
  8. Are you kidding me? by ChrisSoyars · · Score: 1

    Major fail, worst article ever. Get your facts straight.

    1. Re:Are you kidding me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Just look at the slashdot "editor" who posted the story for an explanation.

    2. Re:Are you kidding me? by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 0, Troll

      It's not kdawson which means it could have been far worse than what we got here.

  9. Wut? by mrsteveman1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This seems like a violation of the Apache license Android is licensed under

    Yes, it "seems" like a violation of the Apache license because you don't like it (i don't either for that matter), but please explain to me how it is an actual violation of that license. Have you ever read the thing?

    1. Re:Wut? by v1 · · Score: 5, Funny

      please explain to me how it is an actual violation of that license

      Section 3, paragraph 11, about a third of the way down, "Don't be evil."

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    2. Re:Wut? by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 1

      What idiots are moderating that as "interesting". He's making a joke, people. Moderate it as funny. (Section 3 has 1 paragraph, and it doesn't say "Don't be evil").

    3. Re:Wut? by Kilrah_il · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh, so you want people to read the license agreement, Really? Next thing we know, you'll want them to RTFA. You must be new here (yes, I said it!)

      --
      Whenever in an argument, remember this.
    4. Re:Wut? by guyminuslife · · Score: 4, Funny

      Submitter seems to have "Apache" confused with "GPLv3." It's a common mistake; Richard Stallman has been known to collect scalps.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    5. Re:Wut? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you buy your shiney new phone. It is rooted by a malicious app but you didnt want it rooted. Now what. Hmm. I uh hmm 20 step procedure and includes my laptop or a visit to the local store hmm. Sounds like a decent feature to me. It is a *PHONE*. I do not want a spam generating spy device.

    6. Re:Wut? by Daniel+Phillips · · Score: 2, Insightful

      please explain to me how it is an actual violation of that license

      Section 3, paragraph 11, about a third of the way down, "Don't be evil."

      Indeed. For anyone under misapprehsion that Google does not have the propensity for evil, or is not already evil, this should remove any remaining doubt.

      If the issue is not resolved satisfactorily, and by that I mean by Google and not by the usual ever-vigilant outside developers, I will simply return the G2 I bought yesterday. I was perfectly happy with my nonsmart Nokia music phone, which has the additional advantages that it fits comfortably in my pocket and runs for several days without a recharge.

      --
      Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
    7. Re:Wut? by gstein · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The Apache license provides freedom for developers to work with the code (pretty much) however they wish. It does not provide freedom to end-users (like copyleft/reciprocal licenses do; such as the GPL). HTC and T-Mobile are well within their rights to do something like this. It's uncool, but it is not a violation.

    8. Re:Wut? by peppepz · · Score: 1

      It's actually designed to be a spam generating spy device anyway, while remaining unrooted. Give a look at the permissions required by ad-supported applications.

    9. Re:Wut? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gotta keep the ol' flavor-savor full and bushy as he ages?

    10. Re:Wut? by shish · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For anyone under misapprehsion that Google does not have the propensity for evil, or is not already evil, this should remove any remaining doubt.

      Because a third party added a nasty feature to the third party's phone, without Google's knowledge or consent, and once public the Google CEO makes a statement of being against it? Yeah, proof of being evil right there

      --
      I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
    11. Re:Wut? by elitest · · Score: 0

      I agree, the second article is far better and gets the licensing talk right.

    12. Re:Wut? by Daniel+Phillips · · Score: 1

      once public the Google CEO makes a statement of being against it

      May I have a link to Eric's statement please?

      --
      Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
    13. Re:Wut? by shish · · Score: 1

      May I have a link to Eric's statement please?

      Ok, having read the article I see that his statement was a generic "mandating that users of our software must do certain things is bad" statement, and not *directly* targeted at this; so he's only against it in spirit not in writing. Still doesn't make it google's fault that a third party chose to write a function for the third party's phone though :P

      --
      I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
  10. Looks like early adopter was the right choice by PPalmgren · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...but now I feel bad for even supporting Motorola/HTC. We have a Droid and an Eris, which are fine, but the G2 and D2 are going in the wrong direction. I will not renew with either of these companies if they continue with these retarded shenanigans.

    1. Re:Looks like early adopter was the right choice by Lifyre · · Score: 1

      I'm coming to the same conclusion. I love my Eris but only after I put 2.2 on it. One of the requirements for my next phone (if it's android, which 3 months of go would have been certain) will be root. My Eris also runs Debian so it has usefulness beyond that of a phone if I need it.

      I guess I'll find out in about 10 months when I can upgrade...

      --
      I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
    2. Re:Looks like early adopter was the right choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking the same thing. I bought the original Droid about a month after it came out, and have since rooted and gone through a few ROMs (currently Cyanogen Mod) and overclock it to 1100MHz under optimal, heavier work-load circumstances. Just being able to do those two things (along with several other things rooting and installing custom ROMs and kernels has allowed me to do) has turned into a very important thing, just because of the way I've learned to take advantage of the features. I was getting excited with the direction that some of the new phones seemed to be going and figured I could just take off the Sense UI or MotoBlur or similar that I despise by rooting, but now I think I'm going to be stuck with my Droid for a long time. If a really nice phone comes out with stock Gingerbread on my carrier, I might be tempted, but if I can't root it and do the things I do now, it's still going to be a debate for me. It's sad to me, really. Google is taking the mindset that I support them taking with a lot of the software of the OS being open-source/free, but the carriers and phone companies are fucking it up.

      I guess I'm still holding on to hope that some smart ass hacker will crack through this crap and open up the whole world to these phones. But it's not worth counting on.

  11. Questionable article by Microlith · · Score: 1

    An article like that, with no links or other sources, is extremely questionable.

    If true, though, it makes me like my N900 more and more. And for everyone who bitched at me when discussing the AppleTV and having to jailbreak it... well here's another vendor fighting you for ownership and control over your own device.

    1. Re:Questionable article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The whole thing stinks of bullshit. Why take the absurdly complex route of reinstalling the entire OS? All this seems to come from a forum thread, with no sort of reliable official information. They may even be experiencing the device un-bricking itself instead.

    2. Re:Questionable article by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      An "unbricking" feature could have that as a side effect though - if the new OS didn't do whatever the "unbricker" is looking for to indicate it booted ok.

      Though any such implementation that doesn't involve pushing a physical "reset device" button while turning it on (and having that button be one of those PITA to press watch setting style things) is playing with fire.

  12. The Reason Why by AdamThor · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This and a number of other consumer ills I think can be reduced to a single statement: "The consumer is not the customer"

    --
    -- "Oh. This guy again."
    1. Re:The Reason Why by John+Hasler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, the consumer is the customer. You, however, are not the consumer. It's intended for the 99% of users whose phone will never be rooted by anything other than malware.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    2. Re:The Reason Why by mlts · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is why I'd like some type of thing akin to a seal and a printed notice, "warranty void if seal opened". The N1 had this when flipping on OEM unlock.

      Perhaps this is the best compromise. To keep Joe Sixpack from getting exploited by a Dancing Bunnies exploit, what would be ideal is to require ADB to be installed, a command issued from the PC that would pop up a lengthy, scary as hell to uneducated users that they are about to cross into Mordor, and that they can easily back out right now with no harm done, or proceed and void their warranty. Some warning dialog that even someone who is drunk, baked, high, coked up, and tripping has a good chance of understanding. User clicks "proceed", fastboot is opened, signature checking is relaxed to allow any keys to sign recovery, boot, and OS ROMS, ro.secure is set to 0, /bin/su is enabled and a .apk file for the confirmation part of su installed.

      Of course, there would be a method to put this all back and shut the barn door if the user wants to have the phone back for service, similar to a DFU reinstall on iOS devices, but that will be buried in the fine print. This way, if someone does hose up their phone, it isn't hard to get them back to a known good OS level.

    3. Re:The Reason Why by DJ+Jones · · Score: 1

      Agreed. The intent is to protect the average user from root exploits. The purpose is not intrinsically evil.

      So much nerd rage on this subject it's ridiculous.

    4. Re:The Reason Why by mystik · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is a crap argument.

      The only way to 'get root' on many of these devices is to attach a cable to the phone, invoke a special command to get a root shell, and only then can things be mucked with, by using a unix command shell.

      How can malware get on the phone if 99% of the users will be only using it through the phone's on-screen menu system? On Android, arn't all apps sandboxed + running as non-root? If an app can break out of this process model, arn't there more serious problems @ stake here?

      How can malware 'trick' the user into 'getting root' when that same 99% doesn't know wtf that is?

      I want a portable data terminal. I want to run my own scripts and programs on my portable data terminal that do what I want. I want a computer I can keep in my pocket and have it's network interface linked up to the wireless tower. I want to pay a reasonable fee for this service. Why can't any of the US carriers deliver that in a straightforward package?

      --
      Why aren't you encrypting your e-mail?
    5. Re:The Reason Why by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Informative

      To prevent me from owning my own hardware is intrinsically evil. If your claim was true they would offer a simple, press Z on the hardware keyboard while you boot to not have the OS replaced or something.

    6. Re:The Reason Why by John+Hasler · · Score: 1, Redundant

      To prevent me from owning my own hardware is intrinsically evil.

      If you buy it you own it, complete with this feature and the legal right to bypass it if you can figure out how.

      If your claim was true they would offer a simple, press Z on the hardware keyboard while you boot to not have the OS replaced or something.

      Why would they do that? They don't care about you. You are not the target market. They know they are likely to lose your business. There aren't enough of you to make it worth their while to do as you suggest.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    7. Re:The Reason Why by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      You make a compelling argument, clearly regulation is needed to protect the rights of this minority. As we do for other minorities.

    8. Re:The Reason Why by orospakr · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that seems to be the case.

      The customer of the mobile phone manufacturer is the carrier, not the end user who actually ends up "buying" the device.

    9. Re:The Reason Why by John+Hasler · · Score: 0

      What "rights"? You have no particular right to own one of their phones configured for your convenience and at your preferred price. If you don't like what's on the market build your own.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    10. Re:The Reason Why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The only way to 'get root' on many of these devices is to attach a cab...."

      Someone is out of the loop.

      Most of the popular devices now have one-click root. No PC necessary. Download an app, click, done.

      If an app can do this, so can...a malicious app.

    11. Re:The Reason Why by rhsanborn · · Score: 1

      The only way to get root CURRENTLY on these phones are via the methods you mentioned. In many, if not most of those cases, the people who wrote the root are using exploits to get root access. The is no reason to think that similar exploits may not be developed to gain root without the methods you mentioned. There is also the layer of social engineering. Just like people click stupid things and get viruses, it's very reasonable to think that an exploit in which a user gets a text message that says it's from 'Verizon support' and that they just need to click here and do that...

    12. Re:The Reason Why by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      For example, advertisers are the customers of TV networks, not the people who consume the TV programs...in some ways, it seems to make more sense to be honest and direct and just buy access to the content directly, through DVD sales or whatever.

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    13. Re:The Reason Why by AdamThor · · Score: 1

      Google is the producer.
      Android is the product.
      You are the consumer.
      But carriers are the customer.

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
    14. Re:The Reason Why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You miss the point. The customer is the telco, not the user. Almost no one purchases a cell phone from the manufacturer and installs a SIM for their chosen provider because the teclos have everything locked down and run different network standards.

    15. Re:The Reason Why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can malware 'trick' the user into 'getting root' when that same 99% doesn't know wtf that is?

      To get more cows in click-cow ultimate* (an android port of cow-cliker* for facebook), all you have to do is download this easy survey, plug your phone into your computer, then fill out the survey and hit "submit" it's that easy!

      * click-cow ultimate and cow-clikcer are (I hope) completelye fictional.

    16. Re:The Reason Why by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is why I'd like some type of thing akin to a seal and a printed notice, "warranty void if seal opened". The N1 had this when flipping on OEM unlock.

      Installing a different OS on my PC doesn't void its warranty; why should installing a different OS have to void the warranty on my phone?

      I think what's lacking here is enforcement of consumer protection laws. Cellular manufacturers/carriers are screwing around with phone owners' personal property rights, and should be punished for it!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    17. Re:The Reason Why by illtud · · Score: 1

      The only way to 'get root' on many of these devices is to attach a cable to the phone, invoke a special command to get a root shell, and only then can things be mucked with, by using a unix command shell.

      Sorry, I don't know anything about how this is done...

      Does the phone screen ask you anything during this process? Does it indicate anything? If not (or even so, if you can be distracted whilst it's happening), does this mean that people are vulnerable to a social attack?

      "Wow, cool phone, can I have a look?"

      [slips cable into phone, device on other end of cable roots the phone]

      "...wow, that's nice, thanks!"

      If anybody thinks somebody couldn't slip a cable into the phone without being noticed, you've not watched many con artists / prestidigitators at work (and competent ones are common)

      If it hasn't happened already, when people start getting warned "don't give your phone to anybody, even for a second", remember you saw it here first!

    18. Re:The Reason Why by mystik · · Score: 1

      When I hand my phone to someone, I watch what their doing. It's as simple as that.

      This scenario doesn't propagate in the way most malware and worms do. A handfull of people in 1 city get knocked off their connection when the phone sees them sending malicious traffic (which is already against ToS). A little investigation later, and the security camera he (or she) didn't notice nails him.

      Or, it targets a specific user in a specific organization. If they're high-profile enough for this kind of attack to work, their IT department will probably be competent to give out locked down phones (that shoulden't be rooted by staff) and/or have other protections in place.

      It seems that there's a segment of the population that want this feature, and it would do the carriers good to give us that option. if that means physical access is necessary to root the device, then that's a reasonable requirement, most computers howadays are vulnerable if you give an untrusted user physical access.

      *EVERY* manufacturer that introduces a feature like this does so to lock down the device and prevent 'unauthorized' modifications. Unauthorized == Not made by them. Don't kid yourself. If that wasn't their intent, how does one install their own signing key? How does one authorize a new ROM or OS ? If they shipped those instructions on page 599 of the manual in fine print where it'll only be noticed by tech geeks, then perfect, I want *that* device, because *I* can determine what's unauthorized. I bet though, that you won't find it.

      --
      Why aren't you encrypting your e-mail?
    19. Re:The Reason Why by AltairDusk · · Score: 1

      * click-cow ultimate and cow-clikcer are (I hope) completelye fictional.

      I hope this doesn't ruin your day (though it will probably result in at least a facepalm) but cow-clicker is quite real.

    20. Re:The Reason Why by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The right to own and do what I want with my owned property. This software is meant to prevent the owner of his property using it in the way he sees fit.

    21. Re:The Reason Why by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      Installing a different OS on my PC doesn't void its warranty

      No it doesn't, but good luck getting support from Dell, HP, etc if you wipe Windows and install Linux.

    22. Re:The Reason Why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No the consumer is NOT the customer. The customer of the company is the stockholders these days. You are here to consume their product nothing more.

    23. Re:The Reason Why by penguinchris · · Score: 1

      Not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet, but there was an exploit that allowed one-click root. I think you just had to run an APK that you download. Not sure since I rooted my N1 the old-fashioned way.

      The recent OTA update (2.2.1) that was pushed out fixes that hole. But the point is that such exploits are possible, and thus are possible to be used with malicious intent.

      The other thing is that if you read e.g. the xda-developers forums after that root exploit was available, most of the people discussing things and having problems were people who only used the exploit. It became difficult to find discussion of regular rooting, and it took quite a while for someone to come out with a version of the update that people with root and unlocked bootloaders could install (this besides the point that it's fairly easy to generate this yourself using the official update file, but in the past a repackaged version was available very shortly after the official version was available). My point is that once root becomes easy - like jailbreaking is/was for iPhones - a lot of less-technically-competent people are going to do it, and that's where bigger problems and malware can start to show up.

    24. Re:The Reason Why by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      The right to own and do what I want with my owned property. This software is meant to prevent the owner of his property using it in the way he sees fit.

      You have the right to do what you want with your owned property. You do not, however, have the inalienable right for them to make it easy for you. And once you decide you want to use their network, all bets are off.

    25. Re:The Reason Why by illtud · · Score: 1

      When I hand my phone to someone, I watch what their doing. It's as simple as that.

      OK, that wasn't my point, but I'd still argue that you couldn't spot a street artist slipping a cable into your phone (though you'd not be the type to hand it over). I'm not in an argument with you. I honestly don't know if you can root smartphones just by squirting set commands over the cable. I was asking you, since you do know about this. Is it true - there's nothing you need to know about the phone (eg serial no.) to root it?

      One thing I do disagree with you is about the value of rooting a single phone. What's the value of stealing a single CC? Yet it's done all the time. With the increase in commercial transactions from phones, the value of having a rooted phone controlled by a bot will be as high, if not higher than CC details. You could sniff & relay CC details from a rooted phone (just intercept the keypad input).

  13. Same thing different day by Nikker · · Score: 1

    So now layering some sort of digital safeguard is now the answer? Common how many protections have to be shot down before you realize that once it leaves the store people will mess with the device. Do these guys truly believe they can follow you home to force you to use their glass and plastic the way their marketing department intended? Well I guess they are clinging to that hope but this backup will just get hacked or jailbroken or whatever once they get access to the memory area that houses the backup data. After seeing a company the size of Intel getting shot down a la HCDP for massive clients like **AA's I am now a firm believer this is all just pissing in the wind. Notice to manufacturers the higher you build the wall just makes you look that much more stupid when I bring it down give it a break.

    --
    A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
  14. Android == Free? by rsborg · · Score: 1
    Freedom no longer frees you, I guess.

    Explain to me how this is better than the iPhone jail?

    Time for Nokia to take a stand... I hate the name "MeeGo" but if it delivers a truly unlocked , I'm interested.

    --
    Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    1. Re:Android == Free? by Lifyre · · Score: 1

      Nokia's stand appears to be with Symbian more than anything else unfortunately. They're still toying with MeeGo but I don't see the concerted effort to make is a large scale product.

      --
      I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
    2. Re:Android == Free? by kaiser423 · · Score: 1

      Yea, it's more free. The OS is very free.

      Once I broke into a custom ROM on my droid, I was able to download from Google, compile, and install my own kernel, and other modules to enable Wifi tethering, etc. I got to use officially sanctioned production code to get extra features.

      Apple jail on the other hand requires all types of dll injection and other, non-official code to get it to do cool things.

      Seems pretty different to me. I root an Android phone and get access to all the official Android code, all production versions, or I root an iphone and get a whole bunch of other weird code and unstable hacks that is not official or production.

    3. Re:Android == Free? by mlts · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When I rooted my Droid X, all it took was a replacement of the Busybox executable to give me all the tools I needed. It isn't Maemo, but I have pretty much everything but gpg and mutt available [1].

      An iPhone just doesn't require just an exploit to UID 0, it requires one to get out of the BSD jail() with root. It also requires the jailbreak to install a complete userland including an install system (dpkg), shells, an app (Cydia) to manage everything. Even worse, the jailbroken Mobile Terminal app is barely usable, and has to be hunted down from a repo, as the one that comes as default from Cydia does not work on iOS 4.

      This doesn't say that the iPhone is bad; it means that a jailbreak on this device is a lot harder to do elegantly than rooting an Android phone.

      [1]: Even in the days of Web applications aplenty, there is no faster mail reader than mutt on a decently responsive system, especially if the spool file is local.

    4. Re:Android == Free? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      The good news is MeeGo is controlled by the Linux Foundation and not Nokia. So you can get MeeGo on non-Nokia hardware.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    5. Re:Android == Free? by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      symbian is controlled by a foundation too. None of that prevents other vendors deserting the platform in droves. It will take a brave hardware vendor not to use android.

  15. Just once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wish that Apple would embrace freedom and stop telling me what I can do with my own phone.

    Wait, what, this is about the super awesome open phone that everyone here loves ?

    good luck with that. Google is the advertiser. Your phone is just a screen for the ads they want you to see.
    On the bright side, they might show ads you find more interesting than other advertisers.

    1. Re:Just once by AndrewNeo · · Score: 1

      Who on Earth said anything about an open phone? It's an open source project.

  16. The law says you can hack it so when it is bypasse by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    The law says you can hack it so when it is bypassed then there is not much they can do but put out a update that blocks the hack.

  17. Can't be updated? by Aladrin · · Score: 1

    So it can't be updated? Because if it can, this isn't a problem.

    --
    "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
  18. Re:The law says you can hack it so when it is bypa by Microlith · · Score: 1

    But that's stupid. Why should anyone accept and further abusive practices like this? Why should you have to spend time and effort hacking a device to gain functionality that should never have been taken away? You should be able to spend your time and effort hacking it to do something above and beyond that, instead you're reclaiming lost ground.

  19. "...hardware itself limits the user's rights..." by John+Hasler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No. It limits their ability. Not the same thing.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  20. Agreed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Agreed. What's up with all these evil hackers who think that just because you buy a physical device, that somehow gives you the right to own it? What about the corporation that made it? Why should *they* have to give up control rights, just because someone else bought it from them?

  21. Re:Sorry, I can't possibly get upset about this by s73v3r · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Really? Care to explain why this should be acceptable behavior from a consumer electronics device?

  22. This is the worst thing... EVER! by HumanEmulator · · Score: 0, Troll

    "And you thought the Droid X's kill switch was bad."

    Yes, I did. And it was much worse. What would it take to get slashdot to stop the over sensationalizing? There needs to be a Facebook to Slashdot's MySpace.

    1. Re:This is the worst thing... EVER! by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      What would it take to get slashdot to stop the over sensationalizing?

      They would have to get rid of the comments section. But since they generate a lot of ad revenue from them, it'll never happen. Slashdot's a business, sorry.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  23. Pointless to even bother discussing by Hohlraum · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It will be hacked in 2 weeks time. If you don't want that crap on your phone then buy a different phone. There are lots to choose from.

    1. Re:Pointless to even bother discussing by mlts · · Score: 1, Informative

      The problem is that no Android phone since the Nexus 1 has allowed rooting. Motorola has told modders and developers to go elsewhere explicitly. HTC has always given out source, drivers, and access to dumps so people could easily mod their devices. However because of pressure from the cellular companies, they had to cave in and start making their devices modder hostile.

      It would be nice to have a phone that is unlocked and friendly to modders. Problem is that the N1 crashed and burned, and no carrier would want to carry such a device. Likely the only future solution will be having Google carry ADP phones that are unlocked/moddable versions of existing phones, although there has not been an ADP since the ADP2 (the N1 technically does not count.)

  24. I'll Ask by whisper_jeff · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, I'll take the karma hit and ask - to all the people that rant and rave about how closed and proprietary Apple is and how wonderful Android is, how does this sit within your vision of things? I thought the entire appeal of Android was that it was your phone and you could put what you wanted on it yet this is far from the first example of another Android manufacturer exerting (rather extreme, in my opinion) control over what you can and cannot put on the device.

    1. Re:I'll Ask by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It shows this android owner that he will have to be very careful about his next phone purchase. Honestly if I cannot get a phone I can use as I want I will go back to a non-smartphone.

    2. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We weren't saying that. We were saying the *N900* is open and actually your phone, with no need to jailbreak it after you purchase it.

      Android phones? Not so much - a few were fooled by that, but people who actually cared were not. It was never an open platform.

      The problem is that almost no one actually cares, so the market for consumer devices that obey you instead of corporate overlords is quickly vanishing entirely, which ruins things for those of us who do care.

    3. Re:I'll Ask by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I thought the entire appeal of Android was that it was your phone and you could put what you wanted on it

      You can. Google exerts no control over the Android marketplace. They sell apps that compete with their own Google apps (would Apple ever allow this?), apps that compete with the default carrier apps and apps that even allow you to violate the terms of service you agreed to with Verizon/AT&T/etc.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd say that a platform without strict publishing rules is still better than the iPhone, even if I can't easily root the device itself.

    5. Re:I'll Ask by Ponteaus · · Score: 1

      It sits just fine with my vision of things. Clearly this is a terrible product, but that's OK because I can use my money to vote for a better Android device. There's no option to purchase a more option iPhone from a different vendor.

    6. Re:I'll Ask by orateam · · Score: 1

      Android is Open. As long as you're not an idiot and buy a phone like this if you intend to root. Android has many alternatives, mostly the TOP of the line Galaxy S phones and nearly every other phone.

    7. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is, even with this, its STILL more open and more customizable than an iPhone.

    8. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never been under the impression that Android or iOS are particularly open in terms of being able to "put what you want on it." That why I bought a Nokia N900. Its Maemo OS requires a bit more tweaking than Android or iOS, but I can put whatever I want on it, and have root access and a terminal interface out of the box

    9. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't buy such devices. I'm running Cyanogen 6 on my Incredible. *shrug*. My dad's running Cyanogen 6 on his Droid too.

      The fools that do buy them would have been considering getting an iPhone or something anyway like as not, so I'd rather they create incentive for application development on my platform. People who buy those phones are still statistics that are generally useful to me.

    10. Re:I'll Ask by strength_of_10_men · · Score: 1

      Logic fail. This is not something AndroidOS does. This is a hardware implementation by HTC/T-Mobile. Don't blame Android for HTC/T-Mobile's greed and control-freakishness.

    11. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tango, Skype, about 20 web browsers, the weather channel. Are you stupid?

      Skype, was until yesterday much easier to get on an iphone than a non verizon android phone...

      what about tango? it is facetime, (and it works on the 3gs)

      So yeah, stop posting, cause you know dick about the app store.

    12. Re:I'll Ask by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Ok; so where do you buy an Android phone that is completely free?

      My HTC Aria from ATT had to be rooted before I could remove the ATT built-in apps. Considering all the hype over how "open" Android is, I expected to just be able to install the Google distro-- Nope! You have to root it exactly like you would an iPhone!

      I really felt deceived by all of the people who recommended Android to me by citing how "open" it was. The fact is, other than Google's phone which is discontinued, "open" Android phones don't exist, no more than "open" iPhones or "open" Blackberries.

    13. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WebOS allows you to get "developer mode" (100% full root access) by typing a published string. It's dead simple and nobody will ever try to take it back from you. Updated to the newest OS release? You still have root. Don't like the way a particular part of the OS works? There's an easy-to-install to patch for that.

      It's really the best mobile OS I have ever seen and the upcoming 2.0 release is going to be even better.

    14. Re:I'll Ask by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      What Android phone gives me vanilla Android and no uninstallable apps? I want a phone that is updated to the most recent Android version in a reasonable amount of time.

    15. Re:I'll Ask by Daniel+Phillips · · Score: 1

      So, I'll take the karma hit and ask - to all the people that rant and rave about how closed and proprietary Apple is and how wonderful Android is, how does this sit within your vision of things?

      It sucks and it makes Google evil, but it doesn't make Apple less evil.

      --
      Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
    16. Re:I'll Ask by JesseDegenerate · · Score: 3, Informative

      Tango, Skype, loads of web browsers, (all compete with apples apps) The 3 camera app's i have, the weather channel, I even have a DivX file player that side loads .avi files it was much easier to get skype on an iOS device before yesterday, than a non verizon android phone. so yeah, you couldn't be more wrong, and your marked +4. typical

    17. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Android is open. So open that some third party can create a crippled phone based on it and sell it. If you want a real android device, get an N1.

    18. Re:I'll Ask by farble1670 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      and how long until verizon locks you out of the android market and substitutes the v-cast market instead? soon. the only reason the carrier relinquished a little control to google, allowing their phones to make google money through search, is because they had nothing to compete with the iphone.

      now that they have android, watch the noose tighten. carriers just can't stop trying to squeeze a dime out of every aspect of the mobile web. they'll never allow themselves to be relegated to being a pipe.

      of course, they don't get that they really don't have android. google sold it to them like "look, it's open source, how much control can we really exert over you?". ha ha. thousands of google employees that are infinitely familiar with the source code means more than they think.

    19. Re:I'll Ask by shugah · · Score: 1

      One word - choice.

      In any given market there are somewhere between 5 and 15 vendors of Android based smart phones and 2, 3 or more carriers. People looking for an Android based phone have a choice. They can pay from $0 to $200 and get a phone with a 2 or 3 year contract that might be in various ways locked down to a particular carrier and a particular version of the Android OS + Mfg's UI. Or they can do a bit of research and buy a locked down phone that is fairly simple to root and re-flash (but still has a 2 or 3 year contract) or they can pay as much as $600 and get a smartphone that is completely unencumbered.

      People looking for an iPhone, Blackberry or Nokia smartphone don't have that choice.

      People looking for a Windows Mobile based smartphone, well, they after their long wait, they will no doubt deserve what they get.

      My choice was to get a subsidized phone that was very easy to root and re-flash. If at some point in the future I want to switch carriers, I know I can also unlock it.

      --
      If you aren't part of the solution, then there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
    20. Re:I'll Ask by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and how long until verizon locks you out of the android market and substitutes the v-cast market instead?

      That's be a neat trick, since they don't control the software on my phone. I rooted it and removed their ability to push software updates to my phone.

      Besides, unless you have evidence that they intend to do that (and I highly doubt they would) it's all just rumor and innuendo.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    21. Re:I'll Ask by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      That's be a neat trick, since they don't control the software on my phone. I rooted it and removed their ability to push software updates to my phone.

      thanks for pointing out a situation that applies to 0.001% of the verizon android users. that really helps to get at the meat of the issue.

    22. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regardless of the OS nonsense, you can install Android applications of your choice, from where you like, and not be limited to what Apple decide is allowed into their store that particular day. You need to root the iphone to have such a choice (and people do), but then you know apple will wipe/reset your device with a forced (sony style) "upgrade" sooner or later.

    23. Re:I'll Ask by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      What are you going to do when your phone breaks?

      They've done it before. They'll do it again. Watch.

    24. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to all the people that rant and rave about how closed and proprietary Apple is and how wonderful Android is, how does this sit within your vision of things?

      I'll bite. It makes the G2 (a phone that I personally was waiting for but no longer) just as crappy as an iphone 4.
      Well.. if you hold it right... er, hold it wrong... whatever.

      Point is, I won't be buying any phone that pulls crap like this. I buy it, I own it, and anything less won't get a purchase from me.

    25. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup, Apple allows it now. I credit Android for making it happen.

      Check.

    26. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your information is out of date - under the new rules, Apple does sell apps that compete with their own.

    27. Re:I'll Ask by shish · · Score: 1

      I thought the entire appeal of Android was that it was your phone

      The appeal is that you get to control part of the software, which is a lot more than most phones give you -- I'm pretty sure that the "feature" in the article isn't part of the vanilla android open source package though, so I'm not sure how you can hold them responsible

      --
      I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
    28. Re:I'll Ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and what do you think will happen in the extremely unlikely case of that happening, Mr. FUDtard? Piss off Apple fanboy.

    29. Re:I'll Ask by lanner · · Score: 1

      Well, one of the differences here is that, indeed, the community is completely irate regarding this.

      Secondly, we can indeed do something about this. If we don't like this HTC device, we can buy a Droid 2, or one of the many other Android devices out there.

      Personally, I've got a Nexus One. I like iPhones just fine, but I can't do business with AT&T.

    30. Re:I'll Ask by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      You had to break out of a BSD jail?

      Oh wait no, you just have no idea what you are talking about.

    31. Re:I'll Ask by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      What are you going to do when your phone breaks?

      Take it back to Verizon and get a warranty replacement. I've hacked all my Motorola phones, smart and dumb. Verizon doesn't care. It's an assembly line operation for them. They send your broken phone back to Motorola. Motorola checks to see if the liquid damage indicators are tripped. If they aren't they honor your warranty.

      Do you really believe that Verizon and Motorola have the time or inclination to check your phone to see if you installed superuser.apk on it?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    32. Re:I'll Ask by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      And they'll be happy to give you a new one that is a little better protected from "unauthorized tampering" than your current one.

    33. Re:I'll Ask by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Never happened before, not too worried about it happening in the future.

      Verizon has a short shelf life with most of their phones. After it goes off they shelf they stop bothering to release new software for it. I replaced my Motorola V9M 18 months after I bought it and it came with the exact same software as the original.

      Y'all are worrying about something that I've never seen happen in nearly ten years of doing business with bed red. They want you to play in their sandbox and take steps to ensure that you do but they also accept the fact that technically literate people will step outside of that sandbox. As long as you don't do anything completely obnoxious (downloading gigabytes of porn on your non-TOS complaint tethered connection....) they really could care less.

      I've hacked most of my phones from VZW. Even flashed a few of them to non-VZW software. They never said one word about it, even when I took those phones in for warranty issues. Hell, they even helped me activate a phone that I flashed to another providers firmware when I couldn't trick it back onto their network.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    34. Re:I'll Ask by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I was actually thinking more along the lines of what your NEXT phone is going to be like. In two years when your current one is a memory.

      I don't know what you mean by "never seen it before." I bought a Razr unlocked, from a non-carrier distributor, and it could do all sorts of things that the carrier locked ones couldn't. As I recall Verizon has one of the worst reputations for disabling features on their phones.

    35. Re:I'll Ask by samael · · Score: 1

      Note: Android manufacturer. I have a choice of manufacturers, and a choice of phones, and I can choose one that doesn't do this kind of thing.

    36. Re:I'll Ask by chrb · · Score: 1

      Skype

      Not a great example, given that Apple was party to a secret agreement with AT&T to cripple VOIP apps, and the pair only relented after the FCC opened an investigation. And what about Google Voice?

      loads of web browsers

      Can any of them run Javascript locally? That's a bit of a major omission for a modern web browser.

    37. Re:I'll Ask by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      What, you buy a new phone every two years? Sucker. No reason to throw out a phone just because your contract expires. Only part on a cell phone that generally wears out is the battery and those are easy enough to replace.

      Either way, I have no idea what VZW will be doing in two years. If they are doing the same stuff they are now (locking down phones but leaving workarounds for the technically savvy) they'll still have my business. If not then I'll vote with my wallet and go elsewhere. Not real worried about it though. They could care less what less than 1% of their customer base is doing with their phones. As long as the bill is paid on time why would they care if I hack my phone to climb out of their walled garden?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    38. Re:I'll Ask by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Four years, five years, whatever.

      Most people get one every two years because that's when they get a new one for free. Or rather, they start paying for a new one whether they get one or not.

      I don't think we're really concerned whether YOU can root your phone going into the future. The question is whether Google has shot themselves in the foot by giving everything away. At the moment their business plan seems to be to collect information by being the default search on Android and to take a 30% cut on Market transactions.

      Verizon et. al. has to be looking at that 30% and thinking it would be pretty cool if they got it instead of Google. And that's an excellent motivation to try to prevent the majority of their customers from using someone else's app market. It's probably enough to get them to put some thought into stopping you too.

    39. Re:I'll Ask by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

      Why a karma hit? I've been complaining about the Android situation for the past year (ever since I got my Motorola Milestone, which had an encrypted bootloader and horrible support). Using an HTC Desire now, and as of a week or so ago, that's fully rooted (finally got write-access to the system partition during runtime instead of only in recovery)... but things like this make me fear for the future.

      I definitely won't be upgrading to a G2 (Desire Z over here) unless this situation changes... but as I can't afford to right now anyway, that's irrelevant. I just hope that enough G2/Z owners complain that HTC notices and goes back to selling easy-to-root phones along the lines of the Dream/Magic/Hero.

    40. Re:I'll Ask by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      How about the most common, the Nexus One? Just run 'fastboot-windows oem unlock', it flashes up a little message about how if it goes wrong you're on your own, and it's donw, using the official Android SDK. I'd expect the next official Android dev phone to be similar. It'll probably be the same hardware as the G2 with a vanilla install and unlocked bootloader.

  25. Decline the software agreement by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

    I wonder what legal limbo you would get into if you declined the software agreement (which they like to call a contract) and yet force the software on you anyway.

    --
    Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    1. Re:Decline the software agreement by ifiwereasculptor · · Score: 1

      It'd be just like owning a car but having no driver's license.

    2. Re:Decline the software agreement by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I wonder what legal limbo you would get into if you declined the software agreement (which they like to call a contract) and yet force the software on you anyway.

      How can they force it on you if you're not using the software? You're not allowed to use it if you don't accept the license (you can return it instead).

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    3. Re:Decline the software agreement by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      This really makes me want to get and return such devices. That way I cause these vendors the most economic harm I can.

    4. Re:Decline the software agreement by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      It'd be just like owning a car but having no driver's license.

      Not really. A drivers license (and the requirements for one) vary state to state and are simply government stating that they grant you the permission to drive on their roads.

      Contrast that to this phone.

      The software license being pushed as a contract between two independant entities, in this case, the owner of the software, and the prospective user of the software. The hardware is owned by you. If the license is refused by you, it is implicit that you are NOT granting the software permission to operate on your equipment.

      This would be like someone coming up to you and saying, "I want to sell you this upgrade to your car's emission control software." However, when you decline, the person sneaks into your garage and installs the software against your will, and then declares that you are NOT allowed to use your car because you said you didn't want the software.

      It raises an interesting concept because you are prevented from rejecting the contract.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    5. Re:Decline the software agreement by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      This really makes me want to get and return such devices. That way I cause these vendors the most economic harm I can.

      I returned equipment after reading the license agreement when I turned it on. I think it had to do with Windows Live and had two agreements One which said I must accept if I wanted to use this software (fair by me) The second said I must accept if I wanted to use this equipment (Hell no).

      It's a drop in the ocean I know, but it bugged the hell out of me.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    6. Re:Decline the software agreement by ifiwereasculptor · · Score: 1

      The point I was trying to make is that you need roads to use your car. The government, and only the government, provides roads. So if, either by you refusing to take the exams or by flunking them, you do not have its permission to drive on them, you simply cannot use your car. Surely you can drive around in your garage, but when restricted like that, a car is reduced to something very useless. Likewise, if you do not want to accept the software license, fine, but I think you'll end up with useless hardware.

      As for your scenario, it is flawed. Cars already come with emission control software and removing, discarding, bypassing or tampering with it is illegal, even if the car is yours, at least in some countries. In mine, there's an annual inspection and if they find anything unusual, you have a couple of weeks to restore it to perfect functionality and factory standards, otherwise you are forbidden to drive your car. Changing "emission control software" for "Cd player" would be better, at least regarding updates, but then there's the first license that you have to accept, and what I was referencing with my road analogy. That license already states that you'll shut up and accept any software modifications the company decides to make to your device. So if you want to decline, do it immediately or refer to my first paragraph, because by then, as far as the license you agreed to is concerned, when it comes to your device, the manufacturer is your government.

    7. Re:Decline the software agreement by sjames · · Score: 1

      Not if they won't give you a refund and terminate the associated contract.

    8. Re:Decline the software agreement by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      The government, and only the government, provides roads. So if, either by you refusing to take the exams or by flunking them, you do not have its permission to drive on them, you simply cannot use your car. Surely you can drive around in your garage, but when restricted like that, a car is reduced to something very useless.

      First, this is not correct. I personally own property with several miles of roads which I built on my own. I can drive whatever I want to on those roads, however I want. A famous example similar to what I have is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nurburgring

      As for your second paragraph. You are way off the mark. You are trying to force an analogy that simply doesn't work. A driver's license is NOT a software license. You might as well try to suggest that you need a fishing license to have a stroke of luck because both are flukes.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    9. Re:Decline the software agreement by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Your famous example shows your lack of understanding of Germany's laws. You can be fined for reckless driving whenever the ring has an open to the public day.

    10. Re:Decline the software agreement by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      You can use your car, just not in the normal way...

      You can drive it all you like on private land such as race tracks etc.
      You can have someone else drive it on public roads on your behalf.
      You can strip it down for parts.
      You could even turn it into a chicken coup or find some other non standard use for it.
      You could potentially take it to another country and drive it there, assuming the government of that country permits you to drive it there.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    11. Re:Decline the software agreement by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      Your famous example shows your lack of understanding of Germany's laws. You can be fined for reckless driving whenever the ring has an open to the public day.

      And when it isn't public?

      Sorry, bad example for that narrow exception you pointed out, how about the THOUSANDS of other private roads where the owner can enforce what they want?

      This pedantry is annoying. I'm done.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    12. Re:Decline the software agreement by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      When it is not public you would not be driving on it. Unless you happen to be a professional race car driver, who also could be fined or jailed but this never happens.

      You could have named one of those, a good example might have been one of the many race tracks in the USA.

  26. Really? by Petersko · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Yet another example of why I am sooooooo glad I don't own a smartphone and won't be buying one soon."

    I can't shift into drive in my vehicle unless I have my foot on the brake. By your logic I should do without all the good reasons to own a vehicle and walk everywhere instead.

    1. Re:Really? by Mysteray · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can't shift into drive in my vehicle unless I have my foot on the brake. By your logic I should do without all the good reasons to own a vehicle and walk everywhere instead.

      If I were to take out the blowtorch and modify my vehicle to bypass that interlock (perhaps it makes a better race car, tractor, electric generator power source, etc. that way), the company that I buy gas from would not remotely wipe out my modified creation without permission.

      What if the modified car is being used to drill a well to provide clean water to starving orphans? Would you have them all drink mosquito-infested standing water from abandoned tires? (dumped by the greedy jailbreak-hating mobile phone carriers no doubt!) WHY DO YOU HATE ORPHANS?!?!

      Sorry, got a little carried away there. I'll decline the karma bonus.

    2. Re:Really? by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      "Yet another example of why I am sooooooo glad I don't own a smartphone and won't be buying one soon."

      I can't shift into drive in my vehicle unless I have my foot on the brake. By your logic I should do without all the good reasons to own a vehicle and walk everywhere instead.

      Er no. You can't shift out of park without your foot on the brake. A subtle but important difference. If you can't understand the difference, then having that interlock in there is a good thing.

    3. Re:Really? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Who the fuck cares if it's a "good thing" (in some random asshat's opinion)?! The point is that he has the right to defeat the interlock because he owns the damn car!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  27. Re:The law says you can hack it so when it is bypa by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

    Or not bother, as long as it isn't a remote hack. They don't actually care what you do to your phone.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  28. Re:The law says you can hack it so when it is bypa by John+Hasler · · Score: 2, Informative

    > Why should anyone accept and further abusive practices like this?

    You don't. You don't have to buy it. Most people, however, have no desire to "hack" their phones and would be pleased to learn that they are protected against anyone else doing it.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  29. Walled gardens. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem is that companies like Google and HTC bend to the will of the carriers. They openly permit garbage on these phones. The irony here is that they're decimating their own brands this way.

    The carriers themselves have this desperate hope that consumers will accept their walled garden as willingly as they accept they accept Apple's. The problem is that their garden is overrun with weeds and has an overflowing outhouse sitting right there as a centerpiece. People tolerate, even embrace Apple's practices because there's a good level of quality and consistency. A lot of money and effort is invested in maintaining this quality. These other carriers, however, cut corners everywhere they can and put no effort whatsoever into maintaining quality. All they want to do is keep consumers locked in forcibly. They're deluded into believing they can offer something competitive with Apple's app store. They might drive away that consumer at some point, but for now they've got them trapped.

    This is one of the consequences of having separate companies develop the OS and the device. Beyond the problem of countless variations of the same basic thing, a user experience that isn't seamlessly integrated these companies simply don't have the leverage Apple enjoys.

    This is not to say that I believe that the iPhone reflects some wonderland of technology but simply that the iPhone and the app store have become the benchmark.

    1. Re:Walled gardens. by naranek · · Score: 1

      Well as long as you let the carriers run the show, you're pretty much screwed. Here's a nice example from Finland, where there is a lot of competition between carriers.

      For years the 3G plan prices remained the same between all players: 384 kbs plan for 10€ ($14) / month and higher speeds running up to I think 40€ ($55) / month. Suddenly the competition heated up again, and within weeks the prices dropped to 1 Mbps for 10€ / month and unlimited plan for - wait for it - 14€ ($19.50) / month. The amount of data transferred monthly is not limited.

      I would suggest checking out Nokia if you haven't already. They are actually advocating unlocked phones. Nokia should be releasing a new phone running Linux later this year, and it is slated to top the N8 on hardware and especially software. It will also let you get root privileges without hacking, just like the N900 and the Internet Tablet line before that. I'm sure it will be slated in the press as The Nokia iPhone Killer, which it might be, but at least it will be a fairly open Linux running powerhouse of a phone that you can buy unlocked.

      --
      Only dumb birds land downwind.
    2. Re:Walled gardens. by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

      I think a lot of you guys are overreacting.

      Most people don't give a damn about rooting their phone.

      But, more importantly, over time this will work itself out as even the proles figure out that they want to truly own their phones.

      We MUST own our phones, as they will be our personal connection with the rest of the "wired" world.  Ordinary folks will come to understand this in time.

      Hopefully not TOO much time.  We should help them to understand all we can :-)

  30. I did the same thing by MEK · · Score: 1

    Dell (of all people) had a sale -- and I got one of these at a nice discount. I've been quite pleased with it -- and have barely begun to scrape the surface in terms of what it can do (and the software that is available).

    --
    Credo quia impossibilis -- Tertullian
  31. Nice try HTC and/or T-Mobile... won't work by erroneus · · Score: 1

    The geniuses and gurus are at it with the analysis and dismantling. It's actually fun for them. So when they are done, there will be a package to copy to internal storage followed by a special reboot and an "update" process. All they have to do is disable whatever it is that is checking for root and disable or deceive it in some way. After that, it's business as usual.

    There's no doubt that the illegal distribution of software on the android platform is pretty high. And we could make arguments about why that is forever using all the same old arguments and excuses we always have. The fact that it is easier on Android phones than others (is that true? I am not so sure about that) is a matter for consideration. But that, in and of itself, is not the reason carriers need to get into the mix by making it less useful for users.

    I suspect they have their own interests to protect such as money they get through software bundling. In the case of PC makers, there are legal issues and even laws limiting this type of behavior. Personally, I don't see much difference between a PC and a smartphone any longer and would argue that they are pretty much the same thing at this point. The right to use and remove software on any device I own is still my right. (It is their right, I suppose to make it difficult if they want to though! No law says they have to make it easy.) It is the motives of the carriers that bother me the most. Not only am I being "sold" to other parties through such deals, but those deals, which are separate from my deal with my carrier (except in the legalese fine print that says I agree to it in the past, present and future) have managed to have a serious affect on user experiences. And to me, that affect is one demonstrating the complete lack of respect for their customers.

    1. Re:Nice try HTC and/or T-Mobile... won't work by LanMan04 · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's no doubt that the illegal distribution of software on the android platform is pretty high. And we could make arguments about why that is forever using all the same old arguments and excuses we always have. The fact that it is easier on Android phones than others (is that true? I am not so sure about that) is a matter for consideration. But that, in and of itself, is not the reason carriers need to get into the mix by making it less useful for users.

      You misunderstand. You can install "pirated", not-downloaded-from-the-Market software on ANY stock android phone. Pirating software is not made any easier by rooting. Go grab a 2GB torrent of every damn Android app out there, install on your stock phone. Not a problem.

      This is all about hardware control. I have a T-Mobile MyTouch 3G, and if I had stayed stock, I'd STILL be on Android 1.6, which is fucking ANCIENT. I'm running 2.2.1, can do all kinds of actually useful stuff:

      Modify /etc/hosts to block ads? Check
      Over/underclock processor on demand, both increasing performance AND battery life? Check
      Control LEDs and other lights (different colors for txt/email/etc notifications, blink patterns)? Check
      Multitouch? Check
      Optimized kernel images that run wicked fast? Check
      Swap space on SD card to get some more RAM space? Check
      Complete bit-for-bit backup of the internal flash memory so I can do a "bare metal" restore? Check

      This phone fucking FLIES compared to the stock T-Mobile software, which is slooooow as hell. And THAT'S why I rooted.

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    2. Re:Nice try HTC and/or T-Mobile... won't work by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      Sweet! I grabbed one of those phones for my wife back in March. T-Mobile has been consistently promising an OTA update to the latest Android version for that phone "next month" since Feb 09. Guess what their line on that phone is now?

      Any lawyers in the audience want to make a quick buck for false advertising claims? :P

      I bought a myTouch Slide for myself a couple months ago. Ran the HTC Sense for a few weeks, then moved to CyanogenMOD. Good times.

      The phone was a little more stable under the stock firmware... the Caps / Fn light on the keyboard doesn't work now, and occasionally the camera app crashes, necessitating a reboot. But yes, functionality galore.

      Haven't convinced my wife to update her phone yet, though... she's happy with what she knows, I suppose. :/ Maybe when we finally get some Froyo-only VTC app I could convince her to get off 1.6

    3. Re:Nice try HTC and/or T-Mobile... won't work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its just ashame there isnt a custom "open source" kernel for MT3G 1.2 users yet :(

    4. Re:Nice try HTC and/or T-Mobile... won't work by edelholz · · Score: 1

      What rom are you running? I'm still looking for a fast stable rom for my G1.

    5. Re:Nice try HTC and/or T-Mobile... won't work by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      http://www.cyanogenmod.com/

      I'd start with CM6 Stable to begin with. Just follow this guide and you should be good to go. Your G1 will run sooooo much better. Just remember your G1 is referred to as the HTC Dream.

      http://wiki.cyanogenmod.com/index.php?title=HTC_Dream

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    6. Re:Nice try HTC and/or T-Mobile... won't work by edelholz · · Score: 1

      Thank you.
      CM6 can hardly be called fast on the G1, though. I've been running dwang's super-speedy rom, but would rather run a current version. I don't know if I'm missing any of the speed settings (JIT, CompCache, etc.), but toying around with them has not brought much of a improvement.

    7. Re:Nice try HTC and/or T-Mobile... won't work by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      JIT = off
      compcache = off
      dithering = off

      VM heap 12MB or 32MB (try both, but those 2 seem to work best)

      Swap is ESSENTIAL on low-memory devices like ours. Try Swapper2 from the market, it'll make a swap file on a FAT partition so you don't need to have an EXT partition on your SD card. I run a 32MB swap file with swappiness of 10. Some people like to set their swappiness much higher (like 60), but I'm not a fan, plus my SD card is only class 2, which is pretty slow.

      Also try Home++ as your home app. I've found ADWLauncher (included with CM6) to be slow.

      Also remove crap apps like Amazon MP3, ROM Manager (useless to me), the "Genie" app, replace the Froyo 3D gallery with the older 2D one, etc.

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
  32. Re:The law says you can hack it so when it is bypa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps because while it limits the 1/10% of all users who care, it protects the rest who will only ever be rooted by malware?

  33. Sure glad that you don't have to jailbreak... by wfolta · · Score: 1

    ... oops, I guess that "jailbreak" is evil, while "root" is good. Among Android phone purchasers.

    Among Android customers (i.e. manufacturers and carriers), "rooting" is evil (along with "upgrading" and "non-bloatware").

    [Android fans are just now realizing that Google's customers are the manufacturers and carriers, not end users. You may not agree with Apple's conception of an end user, and their conception may not fit you at all, but at least they are conceiving of the end user as their customer, not manufacturers or carriers. Not so for Android.]

    1. Re:Sure glad that you don't have to jailbreak... by BatGnat · · Score: 1

      What drugs are you taking?

      As a customer, I want pr0n! Apple dont care about me!

    2. Re:Sure glad that you don't have to jailbreak... by andydread · · Score: 1

      in many cases when you root your phone and then it gets updated your phone still remains rooted. Jailbreaking is not the same thing. Also Jailbreaking allows you to install apps from outside the jail of the Apple app store. so are not stuck to one vendor for all your apps. And it allows installing competing apps that the Vendor/Jailkeeper does not allow. From the Android market one can install alternatives to the music player, browser, etc You do not have to root an android phone to do this. My Dell Streak has an option "unknown sources" under Application Settings and the comments for that option state "Install non-Market applications." and my phone is not rooted. Neither did it come with AT&T crapware installed on it. I suppose getting the phone directly from Dell helped in this regard. Also no need to root the Streak if I want to switch from AT&T to T-Mobile. All I have to do is call Dell and have them activate the phone on any other carrier that the phone will work with after swapping the sim card. Another reason to Jailbreak is so that one can sync with software other than Itunes easier. No need to root my phone to do this either.

    3. Re:Sure glad that you don't have to jailbreak... by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      Hmm, the only clever pr0n app I've come across (huhhuh) on Android was something called Tic Tac Toe. It actually is a fully functional Tic Tac Toe game, but if you click on an X three times, you get a link to a bunch of pr0n streaming sites.

      Didn't care for the actual content, but it sure looks like they go out of their way to hide/obfuscate your habit :P

  34. AT&T and Blackberry Maps by coats · · Score: 4, Interesting
    My wife has a Blackberry from AT&T. It's her device. She paid for it. She's installed Blackberry Maps on it. And AT&T keeps going behind her back and erasing it.

    Why should that not be (felony) violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act?

    Ditto about other stuff being written here...

    --
    "My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
    1. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by lightversusdark · · Score: 1

      Slightly different, I installed the Nook application from the Android Market, which is only available in the US.
      When abroad, I changed my US SIM for my UK SIM and Nook erased itself.
      It could be some kind of coincidental bug, but that's my impression of what happened.

      --
      "There is nothing nice about Steve Jobs and nothing evil about Bill Gates." - Chuck Peddle
    2. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just delete the AT&T service book for maps. I think that should take care of it.

    3. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by Even+on+Slashdot+FOE · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unfortunately, that doesn't apply to sufficiently large corporations, at least not without a lot more stuff to actually get the ball rolling.

    4. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's her device. She paid for it

      Actually she most likely did not. How is ownership viewed on subsidized devices? Do they have the right to limit you to make back there money? Profits?

    5. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by KarmaMB84 · · Score: 1

      She owns it, she's just required to stay with AT&T for the duration of a contract or pay an early termination fee. It's like a loan where the payments are built into the monthly payments for service.

    6. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      Just speculating, it may be that Nook, for some reason, is US-only, and was deleted because the app manager saw the UK SIM.

    7. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      Why should that not be (felony) violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act?

      Because you agreed to it.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    8. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by wastedlife · · Score: 1

      Nook disabling/erasing itself when it detects that it is in a different region is quite a bit different from AT&T deleting software from another party installed on the phone. To make a car analogy, coats's situation would be like the dealership remotely disabling the replacement stereo you installed, while yours is like the onboard navigation disabling itself when being driven in a different country.

      --
      Said, "It's just like dice but it's got more sides And it tells me who lives and who dies"
    9. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      Did it really erase itself? I think they simply use the phone number from your SIM card as part of your user ID (hey, multi-factor authentication, how about that?).

      Anyway, it does sound dorky that you can't just log in with your Nookie username... but I've seen a handful of other apps that use your SIM card as your userid and wouldn't log in to your accounts if someone else put in their SIM. So it's probably more of a misapplied "security feature" than something nefarious.

    10. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by wastedlife · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but as I understand it, you own a subsidized purchase, but can be liable for breach of contract if you do not follow the stipulations. Usually this pertains to keeping your account in good standing and keeping service for x number of years. Also, normally in the case of subsidized phones, the penalty for breaching the contract is the ETF and the amount is agreed upon in the contract. I'd recommend checking the contract and seeing if they stipulate that they can remotely disable software. I doubt they do, but it is certainly possible. If they do not stipulate this in the contract, you may be able to use it as an excuse to break the contract and end service without incurring the ETF.

      --
      Said, "It's just like dice but it's got more sides And it tells me who lives and who dies"
    11. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it won't change until you file a lawsuit.

    12. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the states is currently illegal to breach a system that is not yours, make a report at your local police station and give them AT&T CEO's name. Most likely it will go nowhere, but if enough people start doing this local DA's might go after the company to make a name for themselves and it may push AT&T to change there ways.

    13. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by zeroshade · · Score: 1

      When I buy a car, the loan company "subsidizes" the purchase of the car in return for me paying them back the money they put up front. However, the dealership retains no ownership rights to the car even while I'm still paying it off. In fact the only way I lose ownership of the car is if I fail to continue to pay. Why should it be different for a smartphone? The phone is mine when I purchase it regardless of the subsidization. Instead of repossessing like they do with cars, they just charge the ETF. Thus the phone is mine to do what I please with. The carrier has no ownership over the device regardless of subsidization.

    14. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by PipsqueakOnAP133 · · Score: 1

      Doesn't the loan company have the pink slip for the car? (until you pay it off?)
      Therefore, under law, the loan company owns the car?

    15. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by PipsqueakOnAP133 · · Score: 1

      Since he said that Nook is uninstalling, as opposed to refusing to run, wouldn't that be like the onboard navi decides to eject itself from your car and scatter itself on the road as you drive over the border?

    16. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by zeroshade · · Score: 1

      Not that I know of. I have a nice pink piece of paper that says I own the car, how much I paid and how much came from the loan. Under law I own the car. That's why it's called 'repossessing' when you fail to pay your loan. The Loan company claims ownership. You don't have to claim ownership if you already have it."

    17. Re:AT&T and Blackberry Maps by PipsqueakOnAP133 · · Score: 1

      Hmm, interesting. Maybe it differs by state or country?

      In my experience, in California, I get my pink slip when I finish paying for the car. So either immediately if I pay in full, or 3 years later when my loan is done.

  35. Re:Driod does... Dell streak really does. by andydread · · Score: 1

    I just got a current generation Dell streak. Love it. It came directly from dell without any AT&T crapware installed and is dead easy to root. Custom firmware can be installed also.

  36. Well... try webOS from HP/Palm by El+Fantasmo · · Score: 1

    If you don't want providers mucking with your phone OS much, try a webOS device. HP/Palm has publicly acknowledged and said good things of the webOS home brew scene, and basically said "use at your own risk."

    1. Re:Well... try webOS from HP/Palm by Scooter's_dad · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what I do, and I am secure from these shenanigans. Now THAT'S security through obscurity!

      --
      The road to hell is paved with Cat 5 cable.
  37. Funny by BatGnat · · Score: 1

    It is just a stupid idea to begin with.

    Of course it can be modified. If it couldn't be modified, they wouldn't be able to do updates.

    Step 1: XDA modders hack it
    Step 2: CM6.x get installed and everyone is happy.....

  38. Feature? by southfarthing · · Score: 1

    What percentage of G2 (or any smartphone) customers will mess with the OS? I have no idea, but IF it's very small (I'm thinking less than 1%), then for 99% of customers, if their phone gets rooted, it's almost certainly a Very Bad Thing. In which case, the OS reasserting itself is a feature. One that most customers would likely appreciate. So are the companies involved being evil, or do they just have a different perspective? I'm not saying they don't have other, more evil intentions. But I don't think this issue proves that they do.

    1. Re:Feature? by BLToday · · Score: 1

      I would say the percentage would be the less than the iPhone jailbreaking. But if Apple pulled something like this it would make the news and they would be completely slam for it.

      But is it really a feature? I mean, let's say the G2 gets rooted by something malicious, wouldn't that the malicious software want to make itself the "fail-safe" version. So if you were to install a clean version, the firmware restore would then restore the infected fail-safe version. Because if it can be completely root, then I'm sure there's a going to be a way to replace the "fail-safe" version of the firmware. Unless, the fail-safe version is burned in and then there's no way to upgrade the device.

    2. Re:Feature? by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      If they've done this "right" the "failsafe" firmware is in masked ROM at the lowest possible level (preferably on the cpu chip) and always executes first. It contains public keys which it uses to make sure that the loadable firmware is properly signed. It can't be upgraded but it is also very simple code that doesn't do much. You can then upgrade to your heart's content, as long as what you install is signed by one of the manufacturer's secret keys.

      Still a dumb idea, though.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  39. Re:"...hardware itself limits the user's rights... by Webz · · Score: 1

    That's kind of stupid. If I told you, hey buddy, you have free rights. And then locked you in a cage. Then you said, hey, where are my free rights?

    I'm not limiting your rights, just your access to them. WTF?

    Rights quality = access * amount of rights

    If your access is limited, the quality of your rightship is also limited.

  40. One thing wrong with the N900 by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1

    It's good enough. I'd like a bigger screen...but why would Nokia bother when (a) there is literally no competition and (b) the market is limited to people who know how to get the best out of it?

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  41. What about when it doesn't detect being rooted? by noidentity · · Score: 1

    What about when the OS doesn't manage to detect being rooted? In other words, once this feature has been out there for a few weeks and the malware authors work out a way to avoid detection. Back where we started.

    1. Re:What about when it doesn't detect being rooted? by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      Oh, I agree that it is a stupid feature.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    2. Re:What about when it doesn't detect being rooted? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The title of this article is extremely misleading. It doesn't "detect being rooted". The flash is write-protected. Due to the cache, you can "write" to it, but the changes are not actually written to the flash and are gone when you reboot.

  42. Apple is doing what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WHAT!? Apple is restricting what you do with their hardware? How dare they...wait... what? HTC is doing the same thing? Uh... yeah.... What? Droid will brick itself if you try and mess with the firmware?

    DOWN WITH APPLE! DOWN WITH APPLE! DOWN WITH APPLE!

    Because we hate a winner... because we hate a winner...

    1. Re:Apple is doing what? by andydread · · Score: 1

      Dell does not restrict anything. I just got a Dell streak and am amazed. No hardware restrictions what so ever. So it just depends on the hardware vendor you chose. Apple, Motorola, and now HTC restrict the hardware. Nokia, Dell, Samsung, among many others are still unrestricted hardware.

    2. Re:Apple is doing what? by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      Hang on. Your rooting process for it wasn't officially sanctioned, was it? I remember Paul @ Modaco breaking root on that device.

    3. Re:Apple is doing what? by andydread · · Score: 1


      I was talking about the *hardware*. The process of rooting it is dead easy. I haven't bothered to because I can access 3rd party apps, switch carrier, install apps that compete with the vendor (duplicate functionality according to Apple) etc. And i believe (not sure) that u can even install 3rd party O/S without having to root the current one it comes with. Basically to date Dell devices are the most unrestricted Android phones I have seen. That may change in the future but for now I haven't seen any other Android phones that is so free. I think Dell is on the right track here. And I am not a Dell fan. But this phone is totally sick.
      **Update. apparently HTC has responded and they actually call this phenomenon a ROOT KIT. "We are not aware of any rootkit installed on the HTC G2" According to them So we'll have to hear from Tmobile about this "rootkit".

    4. Re:Apple is doing what? by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      In what way is the hardware on any of these devices limited by a manufacturer? The hardware is what the hardware is. You may or may not have unfettered access to it depending on how difficult the vendor has decided to make it.
      The Streak's lovely hardware but I don't see how it's more or less limited in terms of the freedom you have to play with it than any other device.
      Also, how's that proprietary dock/charger connector working out for you?

  43. Re:"...hardware itself limits the user's rights... by John+Hasler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Crappy analogy. Locked in a cage you are not free to do anything. Sold a phone that doesn't do quite what you'd like leaves you free to do anything else, including throwing it away or hacking it.

    You *chose* to buy the damn phone. If you now find that it doesn't do what you want (but does do as the vendor promised) throw it in the trash. If it doesn't do what the vendor promised demand your money back. "Rights" != "Entitlements"

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  44. Re:The law says you can hack it so when it is bypa by Microlith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You don't. You don't have to buy it.

    Everyone FUCKING says this. Each and every time. And every time yet another vendor does this, that's one less device I can opt not to buy. Eventually I will have no devices to buy. So you're saying that I can progressively pull out of the market until I am forced to opt out of technology in general because I don't agree to being abused by OEMs?

    That's utterly and fundamentally fucked, sir.

  45. Two points by sgunhouse · · Score: 1

    1. For the typical consumer, this is obviously a good thing. A typical user wouldn't be (intentionally) rooting his own phone and therefore this would only happen if someone was exploiting the OS - in that sense it is a great anti-malware feature. For us here it is excessive and thus should include an off switch, but for the rest of the world this is a net positive. Except ...

    2. What if they need to update the OS? The article and summary both say "reinstalling the factory OS", which would be the version that actually shipped with the phone (minus all updates). Droid is not so mature as to not be likely to need updates ... are they going to provide you with a new phone with all updates every time a major issue is patched? Somehow I doubt it ...

    So overall - sorry, HTC. Probably seemed like a good idea on paper, but in reality it's terrible.

  46. Define "ironic" by anglophobe_0 · · Score: 1

    please, because your usage confuses me. Is the anti-rooting implemented by Google, or by the hardware manufacturer? If the latter, ur doin' it rong!

    1. Re:Define "ironic" by John+Hasler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By the hardware manufacturer, of course. This has nothing to do with Google.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  47. I would love this on all firmware by davidwr · · Score: 1

    I'd love this on all firmware, provided it either had a hardware toggle switch to disable this feature or it was off by default and I could turn it on by a hardware toggle switch. This is good not only for infected firmware but for resetting a machine to a factory-fresh bios after installing a buggy BIOS upgrade, even if the upgrade was signed.

    As far as being rooted goes, I'd love it if the firmware alerted me if the kernel was properly signed and if not, alert the user and if the user had asked that non-signed kernels be blocked, block it.

    Now, what the firmware calls "the kernel" would in reality be the first set of non-firmware code loaded at boot-time. It would be up to that code to authenticate code further down the line during the boot process and alert the user or block its execution.

    --
    The right way to design a BIOS for recovery:

    Have two hardware reset jumpers:

    Reset jumper 1 blows away all user data on the next boot.

    Reset jumper 2 blows away causes the hard-coded early bootstrap code to blow away the "main BIOS" and run a hard-coded mini-BIOS-loader program that attempts to copy a new BIOS from a known location, e.g. floppy drive 1, CD drive 1, a specific location on a specific type of device attached to a specific USB port, etc. Refuse to install code which fails an integrity check. Once the code is copied and verified, halt until the computer is powered off, the jumper is removed, and the computer is restarted.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  48. Re:The law says you can hack it so when it is bypa by idontgno · · Score: 1

    The logical conclusion is that mass-market devices are marketed only to the masses.

    Which would bother the vendors not in the slightest, since the lost market share not supporting more tech-savvy and adventurous consumers is hugely made up for by the placement fees for bloatware and the advertising captive audience of the lock-in.

    There is no market remedy for this trend. Highly-tailorable artisan electronics with complete (or significant) owner freedom will, if available at all, be very rare and expensive specialist and collector items.

    Sorry. It sucks, but can you imagine something turning this around? I don't.

    --
    Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  49. Re:The law says you can hack it so when it is bypa by tophermeyer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So you're saying that I can progressively pull out of the market until I am forced to opt out of technology in general because I don't agree to being abused by OEMs?

    Yes, that's exactly right. You don't have any right to the technology. I would love to have a magical flying unicorn, but nobody offers such a thing. I don't get pissed off when Breeders tell me "Nope, sorry. Don't carry them". You have the freedom to make any purchasing decision you like. At the same time manufacturers have the right to decide what products they sell. We can't force them to offer an open phone that meets our wants.

    Realistically though you will never have no devices to buy. Someone somewhere will continue to market more open devices so long as there is a demand for it. Otherwise, you are totally free to build yourself whatever kind of phone you want.

  50. Just give it some time... by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 1

    It won't be long before the procedure for rooting the G2 becomes "step 1: attain root access; step 2: block the automatic unroot code"

    Cyanogen et al are brilliant people.

    --
    Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
    1. Re:Just give it some time... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      You already have to do that if you root a droid with FRG22D. You just prevent it from rebooting then install what you want.

  51. Re:"...hardware itself limits the user's rights... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

    So - you have the right to do anything with your harwdare as long as you choose not to buy this hardware.
    Got it.

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  52. Re:The law says you can hack it so when it is bypa by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    Much like what happened to cars. Driving enthusiasts (like me) have been whining about the increasing weight and size (and uglyness, but that's another point) of cars, and the invasive nannying equipment that takes away control of our cars.

    Just like this, over the years people have said "well just don't buy those cars then, stop whining, people like traction control and automatic gearboxes and top speed limiters you know"

    Then in the early 2000s or so we were left with basically just Lotus and a handful of other specialty cars here and there to choose from. Of course Lotus cars are very expensive so the only affordable choice is to modify a cheaper car. This is why you see us spending so much time, effort and money to modify what "normal" people call "shitboxes."

    And now Lotus has announced that they're going mainstream in 2015 with big, fat, ugly, electro-nannied cars. Now we have NOTHING to choose from that's even remotely affordable even to the wealthier of us. We have to build our own cars from scratch or perform significant hacks on existing cars. It sucks.

    This shouldn't be allowed to happen to phones/PDAs.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  53. Re:The law says you can hack it so when it is bypa by MadUndergrad · · Score: 1

    Well said! Someone mod this guy up.

  54. Re:"...hardware itself limits the user's rights... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Boy-o...

    Having certain access to a phone someone else created is *not* a right.

    They designed it. They *did* have the right to design it as they saw fit.

    You *had* the right not to purchase it.

    Please stop confusing your every whim and desire as a right. It makes you appear a complete and total git.

  55. Re:"...hardware itself limits the user's rights... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you confuse "choice" for "rights." Common mistake.

  56. Re:"...hardware itself limits the user's rights... by Real1tyCzech · · Score: 1

    No...you don't...

    But you don't want to. It chafes your sense of entitlement.

    Your desires do not trump the manufacturer's rights. They have the right to build the device any way they want to. You can then either choose to buy it...or not.

    You also have the right to sit here and whine about the decision you made.

    You even have the right to demand the manufacturer add a unicorn to it.

    They, and anyone else who chooses to, then has the right to laugh at you mercilessly for being absurdly unreasonable.

    The only time you *ever* get to dictate how a product is made...is when you make it yourself.

  57. Re:The law says you can hack it so when it is bypa by mlts · · Score: 1

    What can I buy then in the Android segment? The N1 has to be imported in for a price and is last generation's technology. The ADP1 and ADP2 are antiques and won't be able to run Android 3.x in any meaningful capacity? It is easy to say, "don't buy this", but when one finds there are no modern developer-friendly devices, it gets hard. Especially because Android 3.x should be due soon and will be needing a significant hardware boost than what most devices have now.

  58. Re:"...hardware itself limits the user's rights... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

    The only time you *ever* get to dictate how a product is made...is when you make it yourself.

    Or the government subsidizes it. Which is the case here.

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  59. Re:"...hardware itself limits the user's rights... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only time you *ever* get to dictate how a product is made...is when you make it yourself.

    No, you don't. You *will* infringe upon someone else's patents, and they can legally stop you. You don't *ever* get to dictate, unless the government/corporation says you can. You can follow the rules, or break the law. That is your right to choose.

  60. Re:Sorry, I can't possibly get upset about this by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    If the carrier or manufacturer of a device that I own wipes it and reinstalled the factory OS, they're the one rooting/hacking MY property. I have a right to do anything I damned well please with something I own. I have no rights whatever to what I manufacture after I sell it.

    You must be an ebook publisher.

  61. Re:"...hardware itself limits the user's rights... by Real1tyCzech · · Score: 1

    Still refusing to "get it"?

    So what, in the subsidy, gives you the right to demand they make any product to *your* specifications, exactly???

  62. Law vs Contract. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The law, especially criminal law, ALWAYS trumps civil contracts.
    Didn't you have a high school civics class where they taught you the hierarchy of laws of the land for the USA?

    Oh wait... this isn't the USA anymore, it's turned into bizarro-land, where corporations are above the law.

  63. There is no rootkit? by FunkyELF · · Score: 4, Informative

    From... http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=794053&page=49#post8490526

    There IS NO REINSTALLING ROOTKIT!!!!

    Don't you get it? It is simply WRITE PROTECTED with REDIRECTED WRITES!

  64. Re:"...hardware itself limits the user's rights... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

    So what, in the subsidy, gives you the right to demand they make any product to *your* specifications, exactly???

    The government has far greater restrictions on what it can do than private industry so when the government subsidizes private industry the results must also conform to those same restrictions. One of which is the right to full control over one's own property. Don't like it? Don't run a business dependent on government subsidization.

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  65. Take that Apple fans! by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    err wait.. never mind.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Take that Apple fans! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this is actually just what the world needed.

      if we apply the "iPhone 4 antenna defense" (everybody else has problems too) to the G2's lockdown issue, we end up even across the board. the smartphone universe is in balance again. carry on.

  66. Re:Sorry, I can't possibly get upset about this by cbhacking · · Score: 1

    Sure. It protects people from malware. That's it, and it's a perfectly justifiable reason. This is intended for the people who don't even know how to protect themselves, much less how to intentionally root the phone themselves.

    The only question here is whether that feature was exposed beforehand to purchasers, and whether it's possible to disable it. If the answers are no and no, then and only then can you even hope to have a case of "device does not do what I paid for" which is the core of "acceptable behavior from a consumer electronics device."

    If they had explicitly stated that it could be rooted and then shipped this reafure, unremovably, instead, you could sue them and win. If you assumed it would be rootable but this was never stated, you're in murky water. If this feature was published anywhere, you're SOL - should have done your research. It's marketed as a consumer electronics device that runs apps and makes calls, not as a handheld computer you can tinker with (no matter what Slashdot leads you to think).

    TL;DR: If it's not documented to be a rootable device, you have no reasonable expectation of being able to root it.

    --
    There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  67. Re:"...hardware itself limits the user's rights... by Real1tyCzech · · Score: 1

    "when the government subsidizes private industry the results must also conform to those same restrictions."

    Ah. I think I see the where the logic broke down...

    Couple of questions:

    When did the government fund HTC? or Motorola? or Samsung? ...to produce cell-phones?

    When did the government fund Verizon? or AT&T? or Sprint? ...to update software for cell phones?

  68. Re:"...hardware itself limits the user's rights... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

    All of the wireless carriers are subsidized by virtue of their government granted monopolies.

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  69. Re:Sorry, I can't possibly get upset about this by psetzer · · Score: 1

    Because cell phones generally already have support circuitry built into the CPU which prevents you from changing the OS. The public key is loaded into the PROM at manufacturing time and absent the private key, you're not going to put a new OS on the phone. The Droid X 'killswitch' most likely works that way so when someone replaces a critical signed file, the bootloader just screeches to a halt. This sounds like someone added a recovery partition with the original signed files so it just grabs the files from there and tries to boot again. If the recovery partition's files aren't correctly signed, the phone's a brick. I'd give maybe a week or two before someone gets the brilliant idea to overwrite the recovery partition with unsigned files and we get a story about how the G2 has its own 'killswitch'.

    --
    "Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is living in a state of sin." -- John von Neumann
  70. Nexus One was supposed to solve this... by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

    With the unlocked Nexus One, T-Mobile didn't exactly offer a discount. But they allowed you to take the 500 minute package (not available for smartphones they offer). Saves you $20/month if you don't need more minutes. And, you get unlimited internet with tethering.

    Maybe Google was pressured to droppthe Nexus One by T-Moble after theye decided they didn't like offering this deal. If Google just stopped offering the phone, T-Mobile doesn't get blamed for backtracking. Too bad. I think Google was really trying to open things up a bit.

    So is it Google's fault, or did consumers just not get it. A noble experiment, and way too short-lived to know the real results.

    --
    Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    1. Re:Nexus One was supposed to solve this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh.. what? T-Mobile in the US discounts you $10 on voice packages ($20 on voice/txt/data packages) if you aren't on contract. Not just the N1. Not.. formerly. It still does this. Any GSM phone. (Its $20/$40 on family packages)

  71. Apache license by Eggbloke · · Score: 0

    Android seems to be failing, this 'open' operating system seems to be hardly open at all.
    Being Apache licensed what is there to stop the 'community' from forking android and making a truly open operating system using the GPL? Many people are already hacking roms in efforts to get things working that the manufacturers don't want us to have (and doing a brilliant job) it doesn't seem like too much of a leap to create a truly open system which people can collaborate on and use on all phones.

    --
    I care not for your karma and your mod points.
  72. Think of the possibilities! by Type44Q · · Score: 1

    HTC and T-Mobile's new G2 can detect when it's been rooted and responds by reinstalling the factory OS.

    I can't wait until Microshaft trains Windows to do this! :/

  73. I WAS considering a HTC DeeZire Z by jonwil · · Score: 1

    I WAS considering a HTC DeeZire Z (the generic non-carrier version of this phone) but in light of this, I am highly likely to bypass Android altogether and go for the Nokia N900. On an N900 there are NO restrictions on being able to replace files on the device. Plus, the N900 comes with Nokia Maps (unlike Android where you have to pay extra to get Australian maps for navigation purposes). And they have NO impediments to being able to install a selfbuilt kernel on the device if you choose to do so.

    Of course, it may be that this was added at the specific request of T-Mobile and wont affect generic unbranded DeeZire Z handsets but even if it WAS a carrier request, I dont want to support a company that would pull this kind of crap. (even Apple hasnt gone this far)

  74. Re:The law says you can hack it so when it is bypa by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

    Cars are subject to heavy government regulation that forces manufacturers to produce either millions of identical cars or a few million dollar cars. Do you want that to happen to phones?

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  75. Re:The law says you can hack it so when it is bypa by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    I didn't really say anything about regulation...but anyways, plenty of good affordable cars were built in the 70s, 80s and 90s in the presence of regulation (and a few in the 2000s, although they were priced nearly out of reach of any Average Joe). If you could buy a newly built Datsun 240Z, NA Miata, AW11 MR2, FD RX-7, L88 Corvette, AE86 Corolla, or Mitsubishi Starion at the dealership today, priced the same as an Impreza or Mazda3, you'd have to get to the back of the waiting list.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  76. Evil? by dingfelder · · Score: 1

    Section 3, paragraph 11, about a third of the way down, "Don't be evil."

    Hmmm... dont see that section...

    3. Grant of Patent License. Subject to the terms and conditions of this License, each Contributor hereby grants to You a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated in this section) patent license to make, have made, use, offer to sell, sell, import, and otherwise transfer the Work, where such license applies only to those patent claims licensable by such Contributor that are necessarily infringed by their Contribution(s) alone or by combination of their Contribution(s) with the Work to which such Contribution(s) was submitted. If You institute patent litigation against any entity (including a cross-claim or counterclaim in a lawsuit) alleging that the Work or a Contribution incorporated within the Work constitutes direct or contributory patent infringement, then any patent licenses granted to You under this License for that Work shall terminate as of the date such litigation is filed.

    Nope... Nothing about evil.

    Maybe you are thinking about the yet to be released Apache_JEDI license ?

  77. Re:Sorry, I can't possibly get upset about this by dave87656 · · Score: 1

    I have a right to do anything I damned well please with something I own.

    I agree. Allowing the company to dictate what I do with a device that I buy is heading down a slippery slope. People who argue that it's for your own good would have been happier in the old Soviet Union.

  78. Here's a clue for phone buyers... by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

    ... If you need to root or jailbreak your phone ... ... you're buying the wrong phone.

    Why not just buy one that doesn't need it?

    Don't reward behaviour you don't like.

    --
    Watch this Heartland Institute video
  79. In the USA by DrYak · · Score: 1

    The problem is that companies like Google and HTC bend to the will of the carriers.

    ...in the USA, in order to secure exclusive deal.

    In several European countries, the carrier don't give a damn about the phones and don't sell them directly. In fact when you sign for a plan, you don't get *a subsidized specific phone model*, you get *a rebate to use to buy any phone of your liking currently availble in the phone shop where you signed the plan*. And then you do whatever you want with this phone (you can even offer it as a present to someone else). The carrier don't care. They only care that you keep paying your montly fee. If you want to cancel early, you'll have to pay-back part of the rebate.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  80. Try Palm WebOS by DrYak · · Score: 1

    Try Palm WebOS.

    Out of the box it's a walled garden (The default installer can only download palm-signed apps from the official repository). But doesn't require any crack/exploit/leaked key/etc. Only typing a command (konami code for the lulz-factor, or more recently also a shorter alternative) to put it into developer mode (comes complete with warning pop-up and, among other, puts the phone into a mode accepting software installation over USB). Then use another software (complete with warning pop-up) to install any thing you like. For example: SSH. Or a new package manager (Preware, the webos equivalent of synergy) enabling usage of : 3rd party repositories, package signed with non-Plam keys, non signed package, patches to the system, or even a new kernel. (And with then turn off the dev-mode, the new package manager takes care of enabling homebrew installation and SSH handles the remote shell part).

    It's also un brickable (short of physically damaging the device) : even it the flash content is completely b0rked beyond any hope, a simple key combination enables a rescue mode (akin to the "BIOS recovery" jumper on motherboards), which enable to completely reflash everything over USB including kernel and firmware, and put back the device into factory state (as a bonus, as Synergy stores most of the users data on the cloud (Google, Palm, Facebook, etc.) most of the data isn't even lost). So no problem sending a device back to the manufacturer for repair.

    The drawback :
    - Hope that now that HP bought Palm, they'll keep that way for upcoming device (like the consumer version of the HP Slate tablet which is expected to run webOS). (That's HP, you know. Proprietary firmware inside *INK cartridges* et al. But on the other hand there are GPLv3 components in webOS)
    - Although a huge part of the software is F/LOSS and GNU/Linux-based, the GUI and Apps are proprietary. But fortunately, most of it is written in Javascript (see bellow) (even more parts in upcoming 2.0 version), and thus the source is open and available for modifications (see patches available in Preware) even if not Free(dom).
    - no X11 or other classical GUI. The Luna interface is entirely Webkit based. So either you write WebApp front ends (using HTML, Javascript, CSS, SVG, soon WebGL too), or make full-screen apps (using SDL or Palm's official PDK). No way to directly compile GTK apps (for example the official chat application is not a straigh port of Pidgin, but uses its libpurple with a webapp frontend).
    - Instead of linux' standard Bluez, it uses some stupid proprietary bluetooth stack. And thus as with most stupid phones made by stupid USA companies bending to stupid USA carriers, it lacks critical features (for its defense, it's not only earphone, but also *DOES HAVE* networking. But *LACKS* OBEX, which is a big setback for us Europeans used to freely send us each files dating back from the introduction of IrDA and Bluetooth. It also lacks HID, which will be critical for future tablets).

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  81. N900 3G works fine in the US if.... by MEK · · Score: 1

    ... if you happen to use Tmobile as your service provider. It even seems to work fine on Tmobile's new 3.5 system.

    --
    Credo quia impossibilis -- Tertullian
  82. Well, they did lose at least one sale by subsonic · · Score: 1

    I can hope that someone is going to come up with some wonderful workaround, but until then I'm going to have to pass on this phone. I already have an N900 but I feel like I'm missing out, there's some ok apps being developed, but I want to get out and play with everyone else with their Android and iOS apps. The way carriers keep dicking around with Android and their "custom builds" with crapware, feature blocking and general skullduggery makes me glad I have an unlocked phone. It may be a little clunky, but at least its mine.

  83. Re:N900 3G works fine in the US if.... by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

    Well, yes but that leaves a huge chunk of population of both US and Canada in the cold. My city (650 thousand people) has no network capable of supporting the N900. In fact there is no such network within a 1000km radius of here.