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Apple Counter-Sues Motorola Over Touchscreen Patents

Earlier this month, we discussed news that Motorola had sued Apple, alleging infringement of 18 patents involving the iPhone, iPad, and other Apple devices. In response, Apple has now launched a pair of lawsuits alleging that Motorola is the infringing party, pointing to a number of patents involving touchscreen displays and multi-touch technology, and also methods for interacting with settings and data on a device. Apple wants the court to award them damages and prevent Motorola from continuing to sell the offending devices, which include the Droid, Droid 2, Droid X, BackFlip, Devour i1, Devour A555, Cliq, and Cliq XT.

42 of 201 comments (clear)

  1. Begun, the clone war has by Kjella · · Score: 3, Funny

    (n/t)

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:Begun, the clone war has by tekgoblin · · Score: 2, Funny

      It was inevitable, everyone will sue everyone.

    2. Re:Begun, the clone war has by rtfa-troll · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's a lie, TekGoblin, if that's your real name. You are hereby summonsed to appear in a lawsuit before Judge T. John Ward. To be sued for your infringement of our patents on "a method and apparatus for limited truth delivery through use of over-extensive categories".

      --
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    3. Re:Begun, the clone war has by weicco · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's what I'm hoping, an all out patent war. Maybe some good would come out of it because things can't get bad any more.

      --
      You don't know what you don't know.
    4. Re:Begun, the clone war has by JustOK · · Score: 2, Funny

      peace has been patented.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    5. Re:Begun, the clone war has by aliquis · · Score: 2, Funny

      Now you're just proving his point so you'll lose that one :D

  2. And The Dining Patent Philosophers Starve!! by TheNarrator · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This whole patent war reminds me of the famous computer science analogy: the dining philosophers.

    If each fork represents a patent, all the philosophers have picked up a fork and now are unable to eat because they don't have enough forks to make a smartphone.

    1. Re:And The Dining Patent Philosophers Starve!! by alexhs · · Score: 2, Funny

      all the philosophers have picked up a fork and now are unable to eat because they don't have enough forks to make a smartphone.

      Well, that's a problem in closed-source land. In FOSS land, forks appear spontaneously !

      --
      I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
    2. Re:And The Dining Patent Philosophers Starve!! by t2t10 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ah, but things work out once a bunch of them use the fork they have to stab their neighbors and steal their forks.

    3. Re:And The Dining Patent Philosophers Starve!! by Dogtanian · · Score: 4, Funny

      If each fork represents a patent, all the philosophers have picked up a fork and now are unable to eat because they don't have enough forks to make a smartphone.

      Er.... yeah.

      Unfortunately, you're likely to get sued because BadAnalogyGuy owns the patent on making very bad analogies on Slashdot. :-)

      --
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    4. Re:And The Dining Patent Philosophers Starve!! by Software+Geek · · Score: 2, Funny

      Unfortunately, you're likely to get sued because BadAnalogyGuy owns the patent on making very bad analogies on Slashdot. :-)

      Hey! Your not allowed to just add "on Slashdot" to some widely used technique and then patent it!

    5. Re:And The Dining Patent Philosophers Starve!! by russotto · · Score: 4, Funny

      If each fork represents a patent, all the philosophers have picked up a fork and now are unable to eat because they don't have enough forks to make a smartphone.

      Fortunately they've learned they can stab each other with the forks, which doesn't make a smartphone but does provide entertainment value.

  3. Poor lawyers by thegarbz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Clearly someone thought of the poor struggling lawyers. They needed some love too. There can only be one winner here, and it won't be companies who are suing each other.

    1. Re:Poor lawyers by countertrolling · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The companies are doing fine. Now you know why iPads are 500 dollars. The only loser is the customer.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    2. Re:Poor lawyers by BasilBrush · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apple's products are refined, but technologically innovative? No.

      Sounds like you care more for hardware, so check these examples out:

      Unibody laptop case. These are much stiffer for their weight than any other manufacturer's laptop.
      Magsafe power connector. Eliminates the number one cause of laptop damage/PSU damage. No one else has it.
      Mac Mini - When launched by far the smallest desktop computer on the market. Now copied by others, but most copies still aren't as small.

      There are many many more hardware innovations, and of course many software ones too.

      Clearly you don't like Apple, and that's your prerogative. But the claim that they aren't innovative is demonstrably pure bullshit.

    3. Re:Poor lawyers by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Those aren't particularly good examples if you're trying to wow us with technological innovation.

      The first one isn't even an innovation, it's just expensive and inferior in a couple ways some people find very important. Overall a good idea, but it isn't like they created a new manufacturing process to pull it off. It's just a hollowed out piece of aluminum instead of a molded piece of plastic.

      Magsafe is cool, and I like it very much, but I wouldn't really call it a "technological innovation", just a clever idea. Worthy of a patent, but not exactly a game changer in any respect.

      Mac Mini you might have something, except there were thin clients before it which had similar capability (though intended to connect to a larger machine over the network) - it was more of a new use of old tech. Good idea, not really innovative though.

      Apple's big innovations are in the application of technology, not the creation of it. iPod/iTunes - the technology was nothing new, but the application was unique and superior, which is why the combination still dominates the portable music player market. The iPhone was nothing new either, smartphones have been around almost a decade, but targeting the retail phone market was new (at least in the US), and the slick iPhone OS has spawned quite a lot of new tech. The iPad is doing the exact same thing.

      I'd say they are good at bringing technology to market by making it really useful and attractive to the end user. They aren't particularly good at generating new technology themselves though.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    4. Re:Poor lawyers by BasilBrush · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Those aren't particularly good examples if you're trying to wow us with technological innovation.

      I wasn't trying to wow anyone. They are not the greatest innovations of Apple, but they are certainly very concrete, specific and unquestionably the first to do each. And that is enough to prove the GP wrong.

      Yes, Apple did invent a new process to pull it off. In the days before Apple unveiled the unibody process, the secret was leaked. And virtually everybody said it was impossible to do mass production of laptop bodies that way. And they were wrong. They were wrong purely because no one else had ever done it before for a product anywhere close to a laptop. That's unquestionably innovation.

      Saying "Just a hollowed out piece of aluminum" is either being flippant, or not realising the significance of the innovation.

      Innovation *IS* a clever new idea made concrete in an actual product. That's exactly what Magsafe is.

      Mac Mini isn't a thin client. It's a full desktop PC in a tiny box. Again NO ONE had put a PC in a box that small till Apple did it. That's innovation.

      I agree thatApple have more important examples of innovation in their software , in integration of system and business practices. But for the GP who clearly values hardware innovation more, the ones I gave were better examples.

    5. Re:Poor lawyers by tooyoung · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The iPhone was nothing new either, smartphones have been around almost a decade

      To insinuate that the iPhone is comparable to the smartphones that came before it is dishonest. Would you really choose to go back to the set of smartphone UI's that existed before the iPhone?

  4. Best defence is a good offence? by sosaited · · Score: 2, Informative

    You scratch my back, I scratch yours.

    No wait, that's not it...

  5. Got it! by gmhowell · · Score: 5, Funny

    1. Do something. Or perhaps nothing.
    2. Sue!
    3. Profit!!! [1]

    [1] Profit only available to lawyers and other assorted douchebags.

    --
    Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  6. Progress by steveha · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm just glad to see another example of patents promoting the Progress of Science and useful Arts.

    Because we all know that without these patents, Apple would never have bothered to produce devices with multitouch, nor would Motorola, nor would anybody. And really, the whole idea of using compound gestures like pinching is completely non-obvious. And we wouldn't want little startup companies to make multitouch products; we only want big companies with lawyers to be able to do it.

    Can't you just feel the Progress?

    Go, Apple! Cry havoc and let slip the lawyers of litigation!

    steveha

    --
    lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    1. Re:Progress by devent · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And do you know why we see now the multi-touch technology used everywhere and every company is so aggressive to push it? Because the multi-touch technology was developed in the 1980/1990 years and now all the patents on the basic technologies are expiring. What all the companies are now doing is to improve on the expired patents and get their own patents to sue the competition.

      It's like why the price for pills and medicine is dropping significant after the patents expired and you start to see only slightly different pills and medicine in the pharmacy to buy instead of the generics. That's also the reason why the pharmacy industry put so much money into advertising the new pills, so the people think that the slightly different pills are so much better instead of the now really cheap generics. For more information visit Wikipedia on Generic Drugs

      What patents basically did was to make the multi-touch technology so expensive that the devices were on hold for about 20 years.

      --
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  7. Yawn by Macman408 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A sues B
    B countersues A
    A and B settle
    A and B issue press releases that they have cross-licensed their technology

    Is there a reason this still makes the news every time?

    When was the last time some major company was sued to stop production of a product, and they were actually stopped? Never, of course; patent holders just want money. Sometimes the price might be too high, of course. But there's always a price.

    1. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That happens all the time.Not to the Apples and Motorolas of course, but for small to medium size companies a patent lawsuit can be a huge deal: It's not just license, it's also the legal costs. The price can easily be large enough that the only sane option is to abandon that technology..

      In a lot of cases the patents seem to only function as barriers to market entry.

    2. Re:Yawn by t2t10 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When was the last time some major company was sued to stop production of a product, and they were actually stopped? Never, of course; patent holders just want money.

      Large companies often have to pay penalties and modify their products. Small companies, however, go out of business when this happens. The patent system basically creates an oligopoly where only companies with lots of lawyers and resources (=tons of money) manage to survive the inevitable patent lawsuits.

    3. Re:Yawn by vague+disclaimer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When was the last time some major company was sued to stop production of a product, and they were actually stopped? Never, of course;

      Kodak by Polaroid over instant film.

  8. Oooh! by Arancaytar · · Score: 3, Funny

    Will this add a Hamilton cycle to the who-sues-whom graph of smartphone makers?

  9. Armchair "Expert" Progress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's your point? Your particular "winner" didn't get picked? Patents have always been about a particular winner. The whole "advancing society" comes with the expiration of the patent much like with copyright. During the patent any benefit we gain comes from how well the patent holder executes their idea. That's the way it has always been. As for the obviousness of it, are you by any chance an expert in the particular field the patents are in? Seems that's one of the requirements, not "armchair expert" who slept at a Howard Johnson's.

  10. No iPads are $500 because they are Apple by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apple has long over charged for their hardware. Notice their massive profits? Reason is they have massive margins. They charge much higher margins than other electronics makers. They get away with it because their products are trendy, fashionable, and fashion is one area where consumers' normal price sensitivity doesn't apply. You'll notice that the iPod was not the first MP3 player, nor the first portable music device. What it was was a fashion accessory, you had to own one to be cool. The white earbuds were very much a status symbol, to the point that high end earbud makers suddenly had requests for white earbuds, something they'd not had before (black is less visible, more understated). People wanted better quality IEMs, but wanted the status symbol of white/iPod earbuds.

    That's the reason the iPad is as much as it is. Not patents, Apple's business plan. So long as people continue to buy their stuff to be trendy, they can keep doing it.

    1. Re:No iPads are $500 because they are Apple by PietjeJantje · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is a funny thing about this argument, or better, about the response usually given to this argument. The responses usually are that Apple is in fact good value for money because you get this and that and the cheaper competition doesn't, etc. etc. Even Apple PR itself will say this when trolled.

      Now cue to Apple, corporate site, where they don't talk customer language but investor language. Why should I buy AAPL, according to Apple? According to Apple, because of their profit maximization. Funny, that.

    2. Re:No iPads are $500 because they are Apple by BasilBrush · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with claiming that Apple overcharge for the iPad is that in the days before the iPad launch, blogs had pretty much guessed the form factor and specification, but they were estimating the price point to be $999.

      $499 isn't overpriced. It's just that some people will say Apple products are overpriced whatever the actual price is.

    3. Re:No iPads are $500 because they are Apple by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      MS has stellar profit margins because they are in software. Software has the advantage of having nearly zero unit cost. Even if you aren't just selling licenses, as MS often is, the cost of making and distributing a box is a buck or less. The unit cost of software is nothing. Means all you have are your fixed costs, your R&D, support, that kind of shit.

      With hardware, you have that too, but then you have a unit cost. This is actually higher than the raw parts you put in it because you have to deal with failures. As such software has the potential for much higher margins.

      More or less the only problem with software is if you don't sell enough copies, if your fixed costs in making it can't be made back. For MS, this is not a problem. Windows is THE OS for computers and Office is THE Office suite. While new versions don't always fly off the shelves, they get steady sales. People want new computers and 90+% of them want them with Windows. Even Macs are usually a win for MS because so many Mac users buy Windows and either use an emulator or bootcamp.

    4. Re:No iPads are $500 because they are Apple by PastaLover · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apple doesn't overcharge for their hardware. They charge what the market can bear (i.e. what people are willing to pay). To do anything else would be ridiculous for any company.

    5. Re:No iPads are $500 because they are Apple by Moridineas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Honestly, why do people get their panties in such a bind over these arguments? Every time there is an Apple article on slashdot, the conversations quickly devolves into a flamewar over whether Apple is ripping you off or not, how good or bad their products are, and so on. I mean with your reply--who gives a crap? If you like the Acer--buy the Acer. If you like the MBA--buy the MBA. Think of this as an optimization spectrum with points such as price, weight and size, appearance, computing power, software, flexibility, build quality, and so on. Believe it or not, not everybody is going to optimize in the same directions!

      I just don't get why it seems to bother some people so very much that different people might like different products. If somebody likes Apple products, what's the big deal--why are they automatically a fanboy who you seem to hate?

    6. Re:No iPads are $500 because they are Apple by deathguppie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Every piece of hardware that Apple uses, anyone else can get, minus a few tiny customizations, and the price is actually higher than their competitors for the same price. If you took a competing arm based tablet and stripped it of all of it's peripherals, and then reduced the price accordingly you'd end up with a cheaper tablet. The thing is that other tablet makers actually add more value for the money by giving you the ability to use SD cards, USB input, and mabey even a camera (or at least the ability to attach one). Apple's value is not necessarily in the product but more in the COA (cult of Apple).

      --
      once more into the breach
    7. Re:No iPads are $500 because they are Apple by Civil_Disobedient · · Score: 2, Informative

      if the ipad is over priced why isn't their a single competitor with a similarly priced device? Every single device that matches specs is $700 plus. now don't go find a resistive touch screen, I said match specs.

      Uh, OK. Boy, that was easy.

      Oh, you said match specs. I don't know if Dell offers a cheaper, more Apple-like alternative to the Dell's far superior Gorilla Glass.

  11. get rid of multitouch already by t2t10 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Multitouch is a gimmick, something Apple can use to distinguish themselves from the rest. It's like their menu bar and their Finder.

    Anybody who thinks that multitouch helps usability hasn't tried explaining it to their mother. And even for experienced users, it's an exercise in frustration: it works in some apps and not in others, it does different things, and you need to cover up even more of the screen with your hand. Furthermore, it doesn't carry over to pen-based input, and as the number of handwriting and drawing apps on App Store shows, people want pens.

    Let Jobs pursue his insane obsessions. Google should focus on usability, do everybody a favor, and eliminate multitouch from Android.

    1. Re:get rid of multitouch already by mcvos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're kidding, right? If multitouch is eliminated from Android, there's very little reason for me to keep using Android. The problem isn't with the apps that support it, it's with the apps that don't support it. Multitouch adds a lot of power to the UI for those apps that can make use of that power.

    2. Re:get rid of multitouch already by BasilBrush · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The point of a multitouch screen is to create UIs which can more accurately draw on extablished metaphors. Were it not for the multi-touch screen, you'd need multiple buttons for the same purpose. So for a touchscreen device:

      How in your single-touch technology do you implement music apps, which need keyboard say on-screen keyboard, guitar or drum kit representations?

      You can't do a worthwhile DJ mixing UI without multi-touch.

      Most arcade games won't work - for example where you need to be able to move and shoot at the same time. Given that games are the biggest selling category of apps, this is vitally important.

      Even the humble on-screen QWERTY keyboard is far superior with multi-touch. Think! People naturally want to do shift for capitals, and that requires two touches. Single touch screens require the user to use a caps-lock style interface or some other hack.

      Most of the time, in most apps, multi-touch isn't needed. But when it *is* needed, it's important. It makes the natural UI for an application possible. And in some cases it makes apps possible that wouldn't be possible otherwise.

      This isn't an insane Jobs obsession. He's just thought it through, and you haven't.

  12. Er, WHAT?? by brunes69 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Every tried gaming on a non-multitouch phone? Since the screen can not report two locations at once, you can't hold down two virtual buttons at once - making the whole thing useless.

    Don't even get me started on pinch to zoom.

  13. Re:you're totally missing the point by BasilBrush · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We are talking about what's in the patent: using specific multi-touch gestures as part of the regular UI, for zooming, scrolling, etc.

    What you're now talking about is gesture recognition, not multi-touch. And the only 2 gestures that require more than one touch are pinch-zoom and pinch-rotate. Scrolling is not connected to multi-touch at all.

    As to the patent claims, 2 are mostly about multi-touch, one partly about gestures, and 4 not related to touch screens or gestures at all.

    Since you seem a little daft

    I know what I'm talking about. You don't.

  14. Not really matching specs by PapayaSF · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How is a Dell Streak with a five-inch 800 x 480 screen comparable to an iPad with a 9.7 inch 1024 x 768 screen?

    --
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