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Proposed ADA Requirements May Affect Public Internet Use

An anonymous reader writes "The Associated Press is reporting on federal officials who want to expand the application of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) to require accommodations by public websites, call centers, and technology providers. Hearings are scheduled in Chicago, Washington, and San Francisco. New rules could be implemented as soon as 2012. 'For more than a decade, the Justice Department has interpreted the ADA to apply to websites that offer goods and services. But now that idea could be clarified, and timetables for compliance could be set. ... The Justice Department is considering making it clear that some personal, noncommercial content would not be affected.'"

420 comments

  1. What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Drive-through fast-food menus in Braille?

    1. Re:What's next? by twotailakitsune · · Score: 2, Informative

      Blind people sit in the seat behind the driver. Driver takes them to ATM. Roll down window. Use braille on drive up ATM. That is what Bind people use driver up ATM for. So they don't have to tell everyone their PIN.

    2. Re:What's next? by Xaositecte · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I always figured it was because the keys were mass-produced, and it's cheaper to just make a few more with braille still on them then to create special "Drive-through ATMs"

    3. Re:What's next? by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actual reason for braile on drive up ATMs: it's cheaper to make one model of ATM buttons and have some that don't get fully used than to make two molds for ATM keys, one without braille. To use the analogy backwards from how I originally heard it, it's like male nipples. Nipples start developing before sex determination, and it's simpler just to leave them there but unused than to come up with a system to remove them in males.

    4. Re:What's next? by mug+funky · · Score: 3, Funny

      who says my male, erogenous nipples go unused?

    5. Re:What's next? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Nobody wants to hear your fapping habits funky.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    6. Re:What's next? by Obfuscant · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Here's something I've always wondered about. I've seen so many braille signs on the walls of buildings, in hallways and such. Emergency instructions in elevators. All kinds of things. So, here's the question:

      How do blind people know how to find the braille signs? Is there a standard for where they'll be placed, or do they just have to walk down the hallway running their hands against the wall until they find one?

    7. Re:What's next? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Drive-through fast-food menus in Braille?

      Surely the next step will be to require Ford and GM to build cars which can be driven by blind people, and then we'll need drive-through fast food menus in braille.

    8. Re:What's next? by thre5her · · Score: 1

      I believe this should answer your questions: http://www.ehow.com/list_6773348_braille-signage-requirements.html

    9. Re:What's next? by camperdave · · Score: 3, Funny

      I was on a cruise ship last month, and I came upon the most brilliant braille placement ever. It was on the underside of the hand rail of the staircases. As you go up or down the stairs, you can't help but feel the braille. It's right at your fingertips.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    10. Re:What's next? by scdeimos · · Score: 1

      You think that's funny, but may well be the case in the next few years. We aren't far away from driver-less cars now.

    11. Re:What's next? by symbolset · · Score: 1
      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    12. Re:What's next? by girlintraining · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actual reason for braile on drive up ATMs: it's cheaper to make one model of ATM buttons and have some that don't get fully used than to make two molds for ATM keys

      That analogy just doesn't hold true on the internet. There are dozens of browsers, hundreds of protocols and underlying technologies that were designed to present information visually, often in a multimedia format. An ATM serves a single purpose -- even just the tiny section of the internet we call the web serves a nearly infinite number of purposes, and have so many competing technologies and layouts, ways of doing things, etc., that applying any kind of standard to it is largely a waste of time. The protocols that run the internet and the design decisions and processes that created them are organic, occasionally irrational (browser cookies come to mind), and surprise the hell out of anyone who's studied it in any detail that it works at all. Bottom line: It's gonna cost a lot of money.

      "The Justice Department is considering making it clear that some personal, noncommercial content would not be affected.'"

      And 'some' is where the whole thing falls apart. I see no such legislation saying that the government is willing to pay web designers (or their companies) a stipend for the labor required to make their site ADA compliant. And even if they did, the conversion/update costs would vary wildly from site to site, with some needing very little work and others requiring a complete overhaul. It is neither fair, nor reasonable, to expect any business to redesign their websites to be accessible to 5% of the population. And not to be callous, but from a business standpoint -- why would you try to market to a small portion of the population that lives on disability checks? They don't have much disposable income, so it is unlikely they'll be buying whatever you are selling.

      And excemptions for personal or noncommercial content is questionable as well -- we've already had states try to force people to buy a business license for running a blog that (le gasp!) had a few advertisement banners by calling it a "commercial enterprise". The government is still (30 years on) completely retarded when it comes to understanding how the internet works. I mean, they still think pissing away billions on copyright law enforcement is doing some good.

      If these people are serious about making the internet more accessible, they need to start by investing money at the head of the problem, not papering over its ass -- they need to get involved in standards committees, work with companies to produce protocols, technologies, and access methods that simplify the process of organizing and processing information that is usually presented visually in a non-visual way. And they're going to have to deal with a lot of resistance from advertisement companies and private industry that have thrived on bypassing standards, screwing things up, and being generally annoying in order to eek out a little extra profit.

      Projects like NoScript and AdBlocker are damned useful for this because they cut out the crap on a webpage and reduce what's there to what is important ... rather than listening to "Breaking news -- A fire has broken out in... try out the new 2007 lexus... 2031 West 94th street, where a mother of three was ... have you tried new Charmin Ultra?" You get the idea. The first step in accessibility is clutter elimination and reducing the design to its barest essentials; Because while we can browse through a page in a few seconds, when you have to LISTEN to the page being read to you instead of speed reading, now you're looking at minutes of time.

      Just a thought...

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    13. Re:What's next? by Kizeh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The one blind person I once tutored at my university completely ignored all those signs -- she had no way of knowing they were there, and she didn't spend time groping the walls looking for signs that might or might not be there. Elevator buttons and such yes, but random wall signs no.

    14. Re:What's next? by girlintraining · · Score: 2, Insightful

      /offtopic

      who says my male, erogenous nipples go unused?

      They aren't erogenous. Guys just don't get off on nipple play unless they're on drugs or something. Maybe they just can't stand having to play with themselves for hours at a go on the off chance they'll get a happy for their efforts, I don't know... but the vast majority of men put their dick in their right hand and pull. I know this because I've caught them waaay too many times doing it. I will be well and truly shocked the day I walk in on a guy laid back in bed looking at pictures of naked girls... and have his hands down his shirt instead of his pants.

      P.S. Lefties, I don't mean to leave you out. There's nothing wrong with fapping with your left hand, no matter what your dad said.

      P.P.S. Mods -- have a sense of humor. Alternatively, don't mod this comment and instead get up, walk over to the bed, and prove me wrong. -_-

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    15. Re:What's next? by hedwards · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's not true. ATMs are specifically designed to be usable by the blind. They beep when numbers are input and some of the newer ones sport headphone jacks for the integrated screen reader.

    16. Re:What's next? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Because legal blindness doesn't require a person to be completely blind. They might see well enough to see a red sign on a grey wall, but be completely unable to read it, hence the braille. Emergency signs have the braille on them just for that case, there's nothing you can do that's going to cover all the contingencies.

    17. Re:What's next? by gnapster · · Score: 1

      Many people who are legally blind have sufficient vision to see the sign, but have great difficulty reading the lettering.

    18. Re:What's next? by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      prove me wrong

      I go to the airport and refuse to be backscattered.

    19. Re:What's next? by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      i didn't say the dick was not erogenous, or that the nipple was more erogenous.

      but have someone touch your nips and see if it feels the same as 5 cm to the left of them...

    20. Re:What's next? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      This calls for requiring all braille signs to have a radioactive particle or two, and for blind people to carry some sort of Geiger counter or "braille sign detector" that beeps at them different tones when near a braille sign, depending on its distance and height.

    21. Re:What's next? by Audguy · · Score: 1

      They aren't erogenous. Guys just don't get off on nipple play unless they're on drugs or something.

      My BF would beg to differ!

    22. Re:What's next? by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

      Drive-through fast-food menus in Braille?

      OK, how about hunting for the blind? See the Class "C" hunting permits link on this page. Sorry the actual application file (not this link) is a PDF, but just knowing you could get a permit to shoot at stuff while legally blind WAY outweighs alternate input methods for web forms or TTY for call centers.... because there are no bullets flying around in the latter examples.

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    23. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever looked at the keypad of a bank's drive-through ATM?

    24. Re:What's next? by Greyfox · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's just yours. Mine are pretty erogenous. Perhaps you should have a blind person try to read them, maybe there are instructions printed on the bumps...

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    25. Re:What's next? by tallin32 · · Score: 1

      Actually, by and large, I tend to find the Braille on ATMs singularly useless. See, here's the thing: the Braille is part of the buttons. The function of the buttons (particularly along the side of the screen) change based on context. The "A" on the upper right button is still an "A", whether that button is Withdraw, Checking, or Yes. If you've noticed a headphone jack on most ATMs, that allows for the use of a text to speech interface that walks the user through a transaction. Actually, another reason I find the Braille on ATMs annoying at this point is because I then have to correct mistaken assumptions, because apparently I can't stand for someone to be wrong on the Internet. ... Boy am I in the wrong place.

    26. Re:What's next? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Oops, how could I forget about USB drive nipple piercings?

    27. Re:What's next? by IhateMonkeys · · Score: 0

      If you work in a newer building your door handles should be levers (due to ADA rules). Now say you have an office right next to an electrical closet. If you check the back of the lever on the office door it is most likely smooth. Checking the handle on the electrical closet door there is a good chance that there will be ridges on the lever. This lets a visually impaired person know that there is a potential danger located behind the door.

    28. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That wasn't braille. It was my chewing gum. Juicy Fruit just ain't as juicy as it used to be, ya know?

      Sorry 'bout that.

    29. Re:What's next? by cerberusss · · Score: 2, Funny

      I was on a cruise ship last month, and I came upon the most brilliant braille placement ever. It was on the underside of the hand rail of the staircases.

      My braille is on the underside of my dick.

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    30. Re:What's next? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, on wooden handrails, the underside is often where the splinters are :(.

      --
    31. Re:What's next? by ziggygushi · · Score: 1

      I'm with you bro. I'm one of your fellow brethern... Still low vision thought but I use braille for a lot. I'm pretty sure ATM to ATM the keys are different and it's just redicuous. With out the Text to Speech I can't imagine using it unless you had somebody walk you through it.. and you memorized how a particular ATM machine worked.

    32. Re:What's next? by ziggygushi · · Score: 1

      I'd say not really. not "designed"... Its a ducked taped disclaimer to try an avoid lawsuits. I don't think there very usable at all. see other users comments and mine. Without the TTS I think its probably impossible to use without help. And I've never used the TTS but who knows how crappy that is but I wouldn't be surprised.

    33. Re:What's next? by ziggygushi · · Score: 1

      nope. no standards... Positive when it come to elevators. With certain institutions like hosipitals sometimes building codes in your locality apply. But those can vary I'm pretty sure from county or state to state. So I'd say not not a chance of any standard. Which is in harmony wit everything else I know about my community.

    34. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I heard you can get underwear embroidered "if you can read this, you're too close" - in braille.

    35. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I must be more tired than I thought because I read the first part of the sentence three times before I realised it didn't say "The one blind person I once tortured".

    36. Re:What's next? by delinear · · Score: 1

      The question is which will we do first, perfect cars without drivers or return sight to the blind. Either way, we are living in pretty interesting times!

    37. Re:What's next? by formfeed · · Score: 1

      My braille is on the underside of my dick.

      You meant to write brain

    38. Re:What's next? by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      You don't understand the mindset of these people. They are in control, and if you don't want to comply with their demands, then you are obviously just a "greedy capitalist". Remember that nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do the work.

      Consider Obama's moratorium on oil production in the Gulf of Mexico. Whether it was right or wrong is not the question here. The question is, "What is the impact to the livelihood of people living in the area?". Vallerie Jared is on record as saying something to the effect of the oil will still be there in six months. She was completely oblivious to the exhorbitant daily rate that the oil platforms lease for, the ability to move the platforms to other areas, and the cascading effects of moving the platforms and all the jobs that support them.

      Economic consequences are secondary to government functionaries, as they work in a world of regulatory edicts.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    39. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can someone explain why this was marked funny?

    40. Re:What's next? by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      Hehheh, clever one, young man!

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    41. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I will be well and truly shocked the day I walk in on a guy laid back in bed looking at pictures of naked girls... and have his hands down his shirt instead of his pants.

      Why one or the other? Usually both at once works much better. I'm lead to believe that some girls do it this way too. Of course, the downside is that it doesn't leave a hand free for reading materials/internet surfing... but personally, after a few seconds I'm far too distracted by enjoying myself to concentrate on dirty pictures.

  2. Fine with me by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I use a content management system which, if it does not already implement alt tags for all images, can be easily coaxed to do so. And I use (so far as I am able) standards-compliant markup, so this is not going to affect me.

    It's even long been possible to have accessible flash. So what's the problem exactly? It's not like the web would lose anything but dead weight...

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:Fine with me by Shados · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That it takes a LOOOOOOOOOT more than a few alt tags, standard compliant markup and Flash that can be screen scraped to be ADA compliant. Its a freagin nightmare, and a lot of people who think they are compliant, are not, unless their web site is EXTREMELY simple.

      For all practical purpose, its impossible to ACTUALLY be compliant. They're just a bit soft over it...

    2. Re:Fine with me by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For all practical purpose, its impossible to ACTUALLY be compliant. They're just a bit soft over it...

      How hard is it to use HTML and CSS the way they were meant to be used, and to provide alternative content? Sorry, not buying this one at all.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Fine with me by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      How hard is it to use HTML and CSS the way they were meant to be used

      It's really easy. Problem is, they weren't designed with Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 in mind.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    4. Re:Fine with me by osgeek · · Score: 1

      Here's the quick ref for WCAG 2.0. I'm helping a client to become conformant. It's a pain just to read through the quick ref. It's a lot more than just alt tags.

    5. Re:Fine with me by literaldeluxe · · Score: 1

      That it takes a LOOOOOOOOOT more than a few alt tags, standard compliant markup and Flash that can be screen scraped to be ADA compliant. Its a freagin nightmare, and a lot of people who think they are compliant, are not, unless their web site is EXTREMELY simple.

      For all practical purpose, its impossible to ACTUALLY be compliant. They're just a bit soft over it...

      No, it isn't. We're effectively talking about WCAG 2.0 here (the revision to Section 508 that should come out in a year or two is being based on it), and AA compliance is really not difficult, unless you ignore accessibility until after you've finished designing a site. A little forethought and it's easy as pie.

    6. Re:Fine with me by icebike · · Score: 1

      HTML and CSS can not accomplish what the ADA is demanding.

      Think about screen reader technology for the blind. Today even the best of these can not even handle a mildly complex page. I've tried them out at a friends house. They are crap.

      But it doesn't stop at your content. You are also responsible for all the advertising on your site, even when you don't create that advertising. Why should you serve a page without advertising to the blind? If that's how you make money for your site, you need to serve the ads to everyone.

      How do you serve music to the deaf? Hmmm mmmm dum de dumm ta ta de da mmmm de mmmm?

      And how do you serve online game content to the guy typing with his one hand, or his feet.

      If you think this is easy, why don't you try it. The tools don't yet exist to do this in any economical way. If enforced to the letter, this serves only to drive most product advertising and support services off the web, shut down thousands of hobby sites, and shutter eCommerce.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    7. Re:Fine with me by euphemistic · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is what I thought until I did have to actually make standards compliant websites. I'm a web designer/developer for a government dept (not in the US though), and they require all websites and content to be accessible to those with disabilities and in regional areas with extremely low-bandwidth connections. I thought this would be hard, but making something standards compliant is really just a matter of checking a few extra things here and there, and adding a couple of extra features here and there, that's all it takes. It is actually less tedious and time-consuming than making a site work consistently across browsers. Got a video or audio file? Subtitle it or add a document which has a transcription. That's the hearing impaired taken care of. Low bandwidth audience? Compress those images and use them sparingly. Visually impaired? Make sure your designs have good text-background contrast, maybe add a text size changer in the website, and that's the low-level guys taken care of. For the completely blind, you just have to make sure your alt tags are in there, your CSS isn't a cryptic/poorly constructed clusterfuck and things are intuitively labelled.

      Only problem I have is that I have to buy a license for JAWS so I can test out my stuff on it; otherwise i use NVDA (open source & free download) just to make sure it's basically good.

    8. Re:Fine with me by fotbr · · Score: 1

      If enforced to the letter, this serves only to drive most product advertising and support services off the web, shut down thousands of hobby sites, and shutter eCommerce.

      I think it's more likely to push most of it (at least the product advertising and support, and ecommerce -- hobby sites are probably screwed) to shell companies and hosting solutions overseas.

    9. Re:Fine with me by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 1

      It won't shut down hobby sites if they are clearly private in the TOS. I run a site where I inform people on the way in that the forum is run by a power mad dictator that -

      well here's the exact bit

      "Is this a public forum?

      No, this isn't a public forum, this is a private forum run by a Power Mad Lemming bent on taking over the world, and His mostly insane Sidekick Lackey (of EVIL) Blakwing. We will continue to be the sole arbiters of what is allowed or disallowed in the forum

      What about "Freedom of speech"?

      Nice concept - but we don't adhere to it.Furthermore we reserve the right to edit, change, bend , fold, spindle, or manipulate your posts at any time for any given reason we decide to use. As stated Previously - Life ain't fair. and we intend on keeping it that way.

      This board IS a dictatorship. Keep that in mind while posting.
      "

      I also don't run any advertising. I.E. No profit.

      My site will be fine if they decide to crack down.

      --
      _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
    10. Re:Fine with me by forkazoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      HTML and CSS can not accomplish what the ADA is demanding.

      Think about screen reader technology for the blind. Today even the best of these can not even handle a mildly complex page. I've tried them out at a friends house.

      So, people will be encouraged to stop making needlessly overcomplicated sites. It sounds like nothing of value will be lost.

      They are crap.

      Assuming you mean the sites that don't work well when spoken, then yes. Assuming you mean the readers, then I disagree.

      But it doesn't stop at your content. You are also responsible for all the advertising on your site, even when you don't create that advertising. Why should you serve a page without advertising to the blind? If that's how you make money for your site, you need to serve the ads to everyone.

      How do you serve music to the deaf? Hmmm mmmm dum de dumm ta ta de da mmmm de mmmm?

      And how do you serve online game content to the guy typing with his one hand, or his feet.

      If you think this is easy, why don't you try it. The tools don't yet exist to do this in any economical way. If enforced to the letter, this serves only to drive most product advertising and support services off the web, shut down thousands of hobby sites, and shutter eCommerce.

      I doubt you'll actually get many complaints for lack of advertising, especially considering that isn't really your "content." I've never heard of an ADA case where a blind person complained that they couldn't read a posted advertising flyer on a bulletin board in a store. If it does mean that the horrible chain of dozens of domains and layers of Javascript for ads has to go away so you just serve your ads yourself, meh. I'm still having trouble finding a lot of problems with this. You serve music to the deaf the same way you do everybody else. They just won't listen to it. Wall-Mart sells music on CD's. Deaf people are allowed to buy them. WalMart doesn't have to have employees to interpretive dance on command for deaf people who want to buy a CD but can't hear it. How do you serve content to the guy with one hand? Same way as everybody else. He'll probably just suck at league play against people who can push more buttons faster.

      ADA compliance isn't about making every cripple get to win the Super Bowl, and every blind person win an Academy award for cinematography. It's about making minimal reasonable accommodations so that a person can live their life to the extent that is sensible. The government is involved, so there will probably be a few inane edge cases, but the basic principle here seems sound.

    11. Re:Fine with me by Obfuscant · · Score: 2, Interesting
      ...and AA compliance is really not difficult, unless you ignore accessibility until after you've finished designing a site.

      So what you're saying is that compliance will be difficult for any site that was designed before the new rules (which will come out in a year or two) go into effect.

      You can't ignore what doesn't currently exist, you can only ignore it after it exists.

      If any of the sites I run falls under these requirements, they will probably have to come down, since I don't have time to go back and redo everything that has already been done. That means that people who can't currently get to my content still won't be able to, and those who can will lose it. That sounds like a lose-lose situation to me.

    12. Re:Fine with me by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      Got a video or audio file? Subtitle it or add a document which has a transcription.

      I deal with image data. Pictures. Automatically taken, from many places many times a day. If I have to "add a document" describing each picture I would have no time to eat or sleep anymore.

    13. Re:Fine with me by haystor · · Score: 1

      How much cheaper would it be for you to settle a suit for $2k instead of going to court to prove you are compliant?

      --
      t
    14. Re:Fine with me by literaldeluxe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...and AA compliance is really not difficult, unless you ignore accessibility until after you've finished designing a site.

      So what you're saying is that compliance will be difficult for any site that was designed before the new rules (which will come out in a year or two) go into effect.

      You can't ignore what doesn't currently exist, you can only ignore it after it exists.

      If any of the sites I run falls under these requirements, they will probably have to come down, since I don't have time to go back and redo everything that has already been done. That means that people who can't currently get to my content still won't be able to, and those who can will lose it. That sounds like a lose-lose situation to me.

      WCAG 2.0 has been out for two years. The revision to Section 508 will be based on it. http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/

    15. Re:Fine with me by icebike · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      So you are fine with totally redesigning the net under government edict.

      I'm not.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    16. Re:Fine with me by euphemistic · · Score: 1

      I was actually thinking "add a document" in terms of transcribing video/audio with a bunch of speech in them. In your case, assuming the image isn't also a link to somewhere, an alt tag would be more than sufficient with the details "Picture of Y, taken at Z at X time". This should probably be in the meta-data of the images anyway and it would be trivial to write a small program to extract it and automate this for you. If it's a link as well, you just add a few words describing its purpose like "click for larger version". It doesn't need a thesis or anything, the visually impaired aren't looking for a web-shakespeare.

      Seriously though, this stuff isn't hard and doesn't even have to be unnecessarily time-consuming.

    17. Re:Fine with me by JonySuede · · Score: 1

      provide alternative content

      that can be fucking expensive

      --
      Jehovah be praised, Oracle was not selected
    18. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So your images can't say "Photo of x and y taken at z" in the alt tag?

    19. Re:Fine with me by booyabazooka · · Score: 1

      Well, as a GWT developer, I don't write much of any HTML or CSS. I do my best to keep most of those details abstracted away from me. But I know most of it isn't HTML at all, but is done by editing DOM objects. So I don't really know if I'm using anything "as it was intended to be used".

      Every browser that you add support for adds cost, and the less mainstream, the worse it is. Hell, just supporting all of the IE versions is a huge pain in the ass. You really think it's cheap to cater to screen readers?

    20. Re:Fine with me by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      does this apply to gaming as well?

      my wife only has full use of one hand... she's the only person i've ever known to actually throw the wiimote at the TV.

    21. Re:Fine with me by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      And when you're a small hardware store that has nothing but "www.dinkypooshardware.com" with directions to your store and maybe a phone number... then some ambulance chaser sues you for being non-compliant? There are clear cases of this already happening in the real world, this will just make it possible to script the lawsuits. The money spent by corporations to come into compliance with new laws would be better spent developing technologies and cures that would negate the need for specialized content (i.e. thought controlled mouse cursors, eye implants, etc...)

    22. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Youtube will surely have no problems with that...or liveleak...etc.

    23. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      And you are fine with restaurants serving food in pig bowls in the back alley for the "undesirables" whether they be black, blind, or legless.

      I'm not.

    24. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The ADA predates the web. Commercial sites created with no forethought at all to handicapped people are to blame. They created the high rise with stairs-only and are whining that adding an elevator to their walk-up is expensive. You had to think about that for every commercial building built in the last few generations. But e-stores get to claim they've never heard of the ADA and didn't have to accommodate anyone that isn't "normal"? I don't buy it. Willful ignorance is the same as negligence.

      Not to mention that if they did make reasonable accommodations today, new regulations wouldn't have been needed. Arguably, the new regulations aren't even new, just a clarification of what accommodations need to be done for the very old ADA.

    25. Re:Fine with me by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How about a compromise then? How about only the sites where those with disabilities HAVE TO go to to have basic functionality in society? I'm talking things like government service sites, sites where things such as recalls and other issues that a person would need for their safety, things like that? Same as my late sister didn't care if she couldn't get her wheelchair up some stairs to some old clothing store than had been there since the dawn of time, but DID care that she was able to get in somewhere to cash her checks, buy her food, just the basic things one needs to get through their day.

      The problem is nearly all businesses would do absolutely nothing to help the disabled if there wasn't SOME government force at work. So I think there has to be some way to find a middle ground that will allow those like my late sister access to services required to function, while at the same time not going overboard and expecting say...subtitles generating for every WAV file on the net. But to me a good example of who should be forced to comply would be the telecos that want to get rid of phone books and make them all online. Fine by me, but make sure ALL can access this resource, otherwise they should have to ask if there is a disabled person in the house and ask if they want to have new phone books dropped off before switching to some opt in system.

      Nobody is asking the web designers to make the blind see, the deaf hear. Just a little compassion and effort to find a common ground that both could be happy with. After all most handicapped folks just want to get through their day just like you, without having to beg for help to survive. Without the ADA my sister wouldn't have been even able to buy her own food because none of the stores had doors or aisles big enough for a person in a chair. When I was a kid you never saw someone in a chair, simply because there wasn't any place they could go. And I think we can all agree there are plenty of sites on the Internet that are becoming just as much an intregal part of daily life as shopping and going to the bank were IRL. Sites like insurance, government, phone and other billing sites, etc. Surely we can find a common ground here.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    26. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Being a web Accessibility expert myself. It is a lot more work then people think for certain multimedia content. However everything else is not as difficult as many make it out to be. But, it does take time and understanding. It also means you have to do things correct.

      Always provide alternative content for media that is not purely decoration. This means stupid little hacks like placing text into a background is a incorrect. you can get around this by using a invisible pixel with the correct alternative language. Use fieldset tags to logically group forms. Always use label tags for inputs. Provide transcripts for any video or sound information. Provide proper fall back technology for people without features like JavaScript or other plug-ins. Make sure anything hover-over also works with tab-over events. Always make sure that differences in text are not just shown graphically. For example don't put a span tag or a class to just show selected state slap a strong or em tag on it.

      The funny thing about this is not only do you make a better website but you also help your SEO rankings by actually making your content viewable by search-bots.

      It is not really as hard to do as people make it out to be. I think it is a good thing. Although, maybe I am a bit biased as this only makes my skill set more valuable.

    27. Re:Fine with me by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      "As stated Previously - Life ain't fair"

      That's a very poor excuse. If it isn't 'fair', as you put it, the answer isn't to make it worse, it's to make it better. That can never be accomplished with this attitude.

      That said, I wasn't talking about your actions specifically, I just hear people who can't justify their own actions saying this often (which, again, it doesn't really help their case). I do agree that website operators should be able to do as they please with their own websites, though.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    28. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Screen readers do fine with even extremely complex pages if they are built properly. I know I do it for a living.

      Who the hell would not want their advertisements to reach everyone? Maybe you need to sign up for a service that provides the proper alternative content. No biggie there.

      Music hey just link to a lyrics sheet. If it is purely instrumental not much you need to do there just say instruments playing in background, problem solved.

      You are blowing this way out of proportion. They are not asking about games.

      Easy it is not hard for anyone willing to learn. Economically feasible? Yeah it may cost a little more you may have to hire a professional.
      Hobby sites? you making any money off of it? Nope don't have to worry then. Making an eCommece site accessible is not only possible it is not even difficult.

      Just because you do not know how to do it doesn't make it difficult or impossible.

    29. Re:Fine with me by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      Section 508 only applies to federal departments and agencies. And it has right in the first paragraph: "...unless an undue burden would be imposed on the department or agency...".

      So, it doesn't apply _at all_ to private entities creating websites, which seems to be largely what this change is about, and it also pretty much says that if it's too hard to implement, you don't have to. How is that a problem?

      And for anyone else wondering wtf section 508 is:
      http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?fuseAction=1998Amend

    30. Re:Fine with me by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      In your case, assuming the image isn't also a link to somewhere, an alt tag would be more than sufficient with the details "Picture of Y, taken at Z at X time".

      But that conveys NONE of the content that the image is supposed to convey. What's IN the image is the important stuff. That's why it's an image and not just a statement "I took an image at time X and place Y."

      It would be like a catalog sales site tagging an image of a red cardigan sweater with an embroidered patch of the Harvard rowing team as "an image". Doesn't convey much other than there's an image you can't see. Taunting, almost.

      If it's a link as well, you just add a few words describing its purpose like "click for larger version".

      If you can't see the smaller version, clicking "here" for a larger one isn't going to accomplish much. Do blind people sit around all day not looking at small images and then clicking on them so they cannot see larger versions either? Or are we just talking about lawyers who will wander the net looking for image links that don't say "click here for larger version" so they can sue on somene's behalf?

      Seriously though, this stuff isn't hard and doesn't even have to be unnecessarily time-consuming.

      For anything that is more than meaningless lip service to an irrelevant rule, yes, it can be very expensive and extremely time consuming. We have people getting PhD's trying to extract minimal amounts of information out of images; there won't be any automated description writers for them for a few decades at least.

    31. Re:Fine with me by jonwil · · Score: 1

      Isnt Google already trialing technologies to do automatic voice recognition and captioning of videos?

    32. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but this should only be applied very narrowly or you open the doors to government regulation of websites! That's right, you heard me. Just think about it.
       
      This should only be applied as it is, which is to "goods and services" providers where the disabled are actually missing out on something.

    33. Re:Fine with me by euphemistic · · Score: 1

      Youtube are taking steps to introduce transcription to videos, but this is moot. From the article:

      "But what about personal photos on Facebook? Does Facebook have to make sure the photo content can be read aloud to a blind user? Perhaps not. The Justice Department is considering making it clear that some personal, noncommercial content would not be affected."

      Pretty sure individual user content uploaded to youtube where they are not making money (eg. "boy gets hit in groin with football") is going to be excluded. Content partners would probably have to take the time to do it to qualify for their 3 cent revenue.

    34. Re:Fine with me by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 1

      The whole point of a dictatorship is to make sure life ain't fair :)

      --
      _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
    35. Re:Fine with me by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Well for people who are worried about the actual ability for the disabled to use the web, rather than just legal compliance, I doubt the real solution is far away. No doubt Google is working on a google translate for the differently abled that will assist people without requiring every website on the Internet to be revised.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    36. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Straw man accusations are "your right and I don't have a counter argument"

    37. Re:Fine with me by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      How hard is it to use HTML and CSS the way they were meant to be used, and to provide alternative content? Sorry, not buying this one at all.

      You assume that there's still anything on the internet that's being used the way it was meant to... Let's see, it was a network built by the military to continue to function even if it was nuked, and was designed to run over connections of only a few megabits, on computers that had 16 color monitors and major processing components which didn't blink so much as glow. Pretty much anything you point to that's more than a year old on the internet has been repurposed, modified, or screwed with to do something other than it was originally designed to do.

      HTML and CSS are no different. I mean, I'm still waiting for the apology for the BLINK tag, which survives into HTML5 in the name of "backward compatibility". Guys, geocities is dead. We don't need the BLINK tag anymore.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    38. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2044 called and they want their technology back.

    39. Re:Fine with me by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      If the net had evolved in a way that, for example, made it impossible for black people to use, or gay people, or atheists, or mormons, would you be equally opposed to correction under government edict?

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    40. Re:Fine with me by soundguy · · Score: 1

      Exactly. All of this stupid, mandatory "feel-good" regulation does nothing but drive even MORE of our trashed economy to other countries who place more importance on being able to EAT than being "everyone gets a trophy" politically correct. Fortunately, 100% of my current business is digital and entirely location-independent. For tax reasons, I moved the company to Nevada last year. I can just as easily move it to Costa Rica or the Bahamas if simply attempting to do business in the USA becomes impossibly restrictive and expensive.

      --
      Nothing worthwhile ever happens before noon
    41. Re:Fine with me by hedwards · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's worth noting that a significant amount of it was already industry best practice, it's just that a lot of people were ignoring it and serving up overly complicated layouts and flash crap. I remember when I was reading up on HTML and web development nearly a decade ago, there was a pretty clear imperative to do things like avoid frames and give alt text to images.

      You can't be expected to develop a site prior to the requirements coming out that's perfectly within them, however a lot of those sites weren't even making a good faith effort at being accessible in the first place. Anything that uses Flash as the only method of navigating the site is definitely not accessible, never was and probably never will be.

    42. Re:Fine with me by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

      That's what they always say. Yet somehow, complying fully with government regulations is an impossible nightmare.

    43. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Do blind people sit around all day not looking at small images and then clicking on them so they cannot see larger versions either?

      Yes. I had an aunt who was blind. She couldn't read a newspaper with any manner of normal magnifying glass. She couldn't read the large-print paper with a magnifying glass. She could read the paper with an enlargement machine that looked like it cost $10000+ (just a guess, she didn't even know, since it was a covered item). When the newspaper is blown up to where the letters were about 4 inches high, she could read it. Most blind people don't see just black. They see shapes and color, but not well enough to function. I had another aunt who could see shapes enough to find her way around her apartment she had lived in for many years, but couldn't tell denominations of money and other things that would make independent living very difficult. Yet she was able to live alone and unaided for many years after the "loss" of her sight. And yes, it helps them greatly to be able to blow up things. Perhaps you need to learn more about what blind people can and can't do before voicing your incorrect opinion as fact.

    44. Re:Fine with me by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Being a web Accessibility expert myself.

      placing text into a background is a incorrect.

      SEO rankings

      Being illiterate does not make you an expert.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    45. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you are fine with totally redesigning the net under government edict.

      No. He's okay with improving poorly designed commercial and government web pages because it will improve the internet not just for people with disabilities, but for the everyone else, too.

      In other words, some Slashdotter doesn't have to lift a finger to improve the tricked-out but completely non-ADA-compliant web site where he hosts a live feed of his mom's basement. Amazon, on the other hand, has to make reasonable accommodations to allow the soldier who lost his eyesight in Iraq to buy an MP3 player.

    46. Re:Fine with me by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Also, if you alter uploaded content, you become legally liable for that content. Do you REALLY want to shoulder that burden? It's a foolish game.

    47. Re:Fine with me by slashdottedjoe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The concern is the small sites like mine. I run a business and make my own simple website. I do not maintain it daily, there is no subordinate assigned to keep it up. One alt tag is missing and I will be sued out of existence. I spend most of my time running other portions of the business, like the real work I actually get paid to do for people.

      Businesses are being closed daily through ADA lawsuits. It is one thing to suggest compliance to a list of good design points, but to make sites open to lawsuits is just another way to make the US uncompetitive. We must at least get a "You lose, you pay." tort system.

      Maybe I do not wish to assist the blind in my business (IT). I actually had a blind client and he was a lot of trouble. He lost his sight, had all the tools, but was very angry at the world. He often took it out on me and one day I had enough and walked out. I didn't stop serving him because he was blind, but that he was an ass. I see helping the blind to be very difficult for all the technology is useless unless the people choose to use it. For all my efforts, I cannot make the blind see.

      My wife is deaf and I find assisting the deaf as something I can do quite well. However, with the ADA, I can no longer pick my customers. If I help the deaf, but feel I cannot help the blind, will I be sued? So, when I end up closing my business due to a blind person being dissatisfied with my ADA efforts, the whole community will lose another resource, including the deaf.

      Finally, I look at this as an infringement of my freedom of speech. They are in effect telling me how to communicate and with whom.

       

    48. Re:Fine with me by slashdottedjoe · · Score: 1

      Who determines what is too hard to implement?

      Courts, lawyers and juries.

      That makes it so much more clear on how to proceed in my business.

      Thanks ADA!

    49. Re:Fine with me by mysidia · · Score: 1

      They created the high rise with stairs-only and are whining that adding an elevator to their walk-up is expensive.

      Most websites are not an equivalent to a high rise. They are more like an equivalent to a 2 or 3 story building with less than 3000 feet per story.

      e.g. The facilities that are exempt under ADA guidelines from a requirement to have elevator or ramp access to higher stories.

      Then you have sites like Slashdot, Amazon, Blogger, Google, Facebook, Youtube, Flickr, MySpace, Apple.com, IMDb, Wikipedia. Those sites are the web equivalent to a shopping center or high-rise.

      By the way.... I will be very interested to see what Flickr or Youtube's plan would be to "become accessible", if ADA guidelines required them to do so.

      It's kind of like demanding laser light shows, and art like the Mona Lisa be modified so blind people can perceive the artistic creative vision, or altered by suppressing all visual elements so non-blind people cannot have better access

    50. Re:Fine with me by slashdottedjoe · · Score: 1

      Now we are getting to the essence of this, the ADA as an extortion racket

    51. Re:Fine with me by Tacvek · · Score: 1

      And yes, it helps them greatly to be able to blow up things.

      Next government program: Free dynamite for the blind.

      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    52. Re:Fine with me by mysidia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If this becomes mandatory.... some "accessibility auditing firms" are going to have a field day dragging sites through checklists, while consultants tell management what to make designers change, and some very expensive software is probably going to get sold for "WCAG Validation".

      There could be an entire "ADA Web Content Accessibility Compliance Industry" crop up, to complement the "Sarbanes Oxley Security Industry"

    53. Re:Fine with me by cgenman · · Score: 1

      So, people will be encouraged to stop making needlessly overcomplicated sites. It sounds like nothing of value will be lost.

      How much do you want to bet Slashdot's dynamically loaded HTML plays nice with all screen readers?

    54. Re:Fine with me by Volvogga · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I doubt you'll actually get many complaints for lack of advertising, especially considering that isn't really your "content." I've never heard of an ADA case where a blind person complained that they couldn't read a posted advertising flyer on a bulletin board in a store. If it does mean that the horrible chain of dozens of domains and layers of Javascript for ads has to go away so you just serve your ads yourself, meh. I'm still having trouble finding a lot of problems with this.

      The girlfriend is classified as learning disabled (despite being a semester off of a bachelors degree now) and has a hard time reading. She uses a screen reading program that I know has internet reading capabilities, but I never checked it out for myself. I was a bit surprised by this topic (from what I remember of working with Dreamweaver a few years back, you could set it up to yell at you if you weren't complying with some accessibility standards) so I asked her how her experience goes in using it on the internet. She told me that sometimes she gets all of the website, sometimes all she gets is the title, and other times somewhere in between. When she asked me why I wanted to know, I briefly described what I was reading here.

      First thing she responds with is "Oh please no." Somewhat long rant made short, her prediction is that if they put these stronger regulations and compliance dates into play, those ads will be read, and she will end up having to hear them in the middle of the stuff she wants to actually hear. The example she gave me was of a website she was looking at with a advertisement in the content of the page: "...out door recreation tummy tuck" would be produced from her headphones.

      So I'm thinking that things could be made better, or so much worse depending on the website designer with this regulation in play... and occasionally entertaining.

      --
      Vol~
    55. Re:Fine with me by cgenman · · Score: 1

      For government websites, this should be required.
      For professional grade, established websites, this is definitely good practice.
      For everyone, though? If I wanted to create a quick website called "video rants," on which people have 30 seconds to rant on any topic they feel like, then vote on the best, convincing all of your users to subtitle their content might be enough to kill the site.
      I make independent videogames in flash. Sometimes this is a combination of Flash / HTML / CSS / Javascript and other technologies. Sometimes the line between website and videogame is very blurry. It's nearly impossible to make blind-accessible videogames that work for everyone, without limiting yourself to card or text-based games.

    56. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure they are demanding we totally redesign the web though... those sites that were designed in flash though for instance shouldn't have been done in flash in the first place. That was a moronic thing to do. However there is a portion of the web that does need redesigning. And we do need to respond here appropriately when we're made aware of issues. Look at it this way if you were one of those web designers that designed pages using shitty flash you are going to get paid to fix it. If you were the business owner who has 20 little companies all with flash sites because they look cool and now has to have them redone. Ops. I say this is going to be a hard lesson learned. I have to say though there should be some stipulation in there that protects the little guy. They should get an extension on the time in which they have to implement these ADA requirements upon receiving a warning.

    57. Re:Fine with me by cgenman · · Score: 1

      I'm sure every e-store that has been running for the last few generations has been completely ADA compliant.

    58. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just two comments. 1. This might be difficult to enforce outside of the US. and 2. How does this differ with W3C (which is already a standards body governing the internet). I realise that the W3C is non-binding (and in the early days, folk like microsoft and all the clown show outfits that used their stuff cheerfully ignored any standard apart from their 'de-facto' which wasn't really a standard, because the boys made it up in the back room, probably while drunk, and would cheerfully change it with the next version of the software, and would toast another round if they could get at least several hundred sites to go up in smoke buy screwing with site-dependant internals). The ADA (and by way of them, the US government) is stepping on someone elses territory. They don't really have any business there. They aren't really an internet standards body. They don't know (or likely care) about any of the issues surrounding the internet. The W3C can likely accommodate the ADA, but its likely if the ADA or US government decides on something arbitrarily, its likely to fuck up something else. Its not that they intend to screw someone or some thing over, its just that they don't know any better.

    59. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So (taking your example) all Google has to do is add closed captioning to every video on YouTube? Thats all? Oh, Thats super easy (according to you). Sure, they get 3000 video submissions PER SECOND, but according to you, its easy-breezy. All Google really needs to do is pass those videos on to you, and you will take care of all of them (The hundred million old ones, plus all the new ones) .... in a jiffy, just like you said. Same with Netflix and all those Hollywood movies. All the music sites, all the advertising. How easy is it exactly? Don't get me wrong, I think offering more to the blind on the internet is fine, but you go ahead and pay for it. You made it sound (snap) like a S N A P. But its not exactly a snap, now is it!

    60. Re:Fine with me by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Think about screen reader technology for the blind. Today even the best of these can not even handle a mildly complex page. I've tried them out at a friends house. They are crap.

      Is it due to page size or page complexity? If it's complexity, CSS allows nowadays to have a rather linear HTML, and leave all intricacies of layout in the CSS.

      If on the other hand it's size, then the responsibility of solving this lies within the reader. Some readers just linearly read the page, without a possibility of skipping or in-page navigation. Well, reader authors: just fricking add skipping!

      But it doesn't stop at your content. You are also responsible for all the advertising on your site, even when you don't create that advertising. Why should you serve a page without advertising to the blind? If that's how you make money for your site, you need to serve the ads to everyone.

      How would serving an ad-less page to the blind be worse than not serving a page at all? The blind may not become a revenue source, but they will speak positively about the page, that you didn't annoy them with pointless flash or other barriers, and their positive opinion might convince some of their sighted friends to visit the page, who will see the ads.

      How do you serve music to the deaf? Hmmm mmmm dum de dumm ta ta de da mmmm de mmmm?

      Obviously some content is not useful for everybody. But don't use that as an excuse to deliberately block access to content. A deaf person may not be able to hear music, but he might still want to buy tickets for a concert. Maybe he's buying them for his kids. Or maybe he's feeling the bass. Or maybe the performance is as much visual than auditory. Or maybe he's just enjoying the crowd.

      Yes, ticketpod.nl, that means you!

      And how do you serve online game content to the guy typing with his one hand, or his feet.

      Same as above. Not all content may be useful to everybody. But please don't force people to play games just in order to be able to navigate your site.

      The tools don't yet exist to do this in any economical way.

      HTML and CSS have been existing for ages.

    61. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is what ya do about jaws, go to the freedom scientific website download a demo of jaws and you can use it for a half hour and test things. same with window-eyes go to the gw micro website and download a demo

    62. Re:Fine with me by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      So you are fine with totally redesigning the net under government edict.
      I'm not.

      Neither am I.
      Nor is forkazoo, as far as I can see. At least, nothing in the post you replied to indicated that he was.

    63. Re:Fine with me by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      If the net had evolved in a way that, for example, made it impossible for black people to use, or gay people, or atheists, or mormons, would you be equally opposed to correction under government edict?

      Tell that to the bright people at ticketpod.nl ...

    64. Re:Fine with me by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      I remember when I was reading up on HTML and web development nearly a decade ago, there was a pretty clear imperative to do things like avoid frames and give alt text to images.

      The underlying premise of SGML, from which HTML was derived, was that markup was supposed to describe the logical structure of a document, and it was up to the display device to determine how to distinguish the elements of that structure. One reason was that SGML was developed as a means to overcome the problem of proprietary binary document formats that became obsolete, meaning the loss of valuable information, and this was thinking in the long term. Another reason was that marking up only the logical structure, and leaving it to display devices to determine how to display a document, meant that display was for the user to determine; the needs of the visually impaired were frequently pointed out as an example.

      Knowing that, I would actually get angry when I'd come across rants from graphic designers about how little control HTML gave them over document display. They weren't supposed to have any control, and their efforts to impose such control undermined the good principles underlying SGML and HTML.

    65. Re:Fine with me by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      We have people getting PhD's trying to extract minimal amounts of information out of images; there won't be any automated description writers for them for a few decades at least.

      The video search engine Blinkx is based on extracting information from video in order to index it.

    66. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 1, Troll

      It's kind of like demanding laser light shows, and art like the Mona Lisa be modified so blind people can perceive the artistic creative vision, or altered by suppressing all visual elements so non-blind people cannot have better access

      Yes, because improving the access for the blind requires hurting everyone else. Or, it could be more like the DVD options for the vision impaired where sighted people get the DVD without any reductions, and the vision impaired select the audio track that includes a description of the on-screen events. That improves access for the vision impaired while not hurting the experience for any sighted person.

      But no, that'll never happen, we'll have to modify the original for everyone, damaging it because that fits your irrational, illogical, and anti-reality notions because you apparently hate anyone that doesn't have exactly the capabilities you have.

    67. Re:Fine with me by shadowfaxcrx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's a very large difference between wanting to shove the "undesirables" (your word, not mine) under the rug, and wanting to be able to have an ad-supported internet venture without getting fined by the feds.

      As someone who had a father who died of a degenerative muscle disease, and who benefited from ADA-won societal improvements for the 12 years he was wheelchair bound, I'm not going to trash the ADA.

      But that same father also believed that there are limits as to how far you can go to accommodate people with disabilities. Forcing businesses to be generally handicap-accessible is one thing. Forcing them to be accessible to all handicaps, no matter what the disability, is quite another. Putting in a wheelchair ramp has wide reaching benefits to people in wheelchairs, people on crutches, and the elderly. Forcing a website to be 100% compliant with a standalone text reader benefits the vanishingly few people who are both blind and who visit that specific site.

      The long and the short of it is, sometimes shit happens, and people just have to work with the hand they're dealt. I went to a college that had set itself up as a disability-friendly campus. I saw all kinds of disabilities there, and not all of them could be reasonably accommodated. I expect there to be curb cuts and grade-level entries to benefit the large number of people with wheelchairs, walkers, and canes. I do not expect there to be robotic assistance arms in every aisle of a store to benefit the tiny number of people who were born without limbs. This proposal would push onto internet vendors and hosts the same level of absurdity as would be required to push robotic assistance arms on brick and mortar stores.

      TFA says exceptions will be made for some *personal* web sites. It doesn't say anything about non-profit or organizational web sites. Presumably this means I'm going to have to make my car club's web site (a public organization that is incorporated as a non-profit) accessible to the blind, despite the fact that the car club doesn't have any blind people in it. That is monumentally stupid.

      --
      "I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
    68. Re:Fine with me by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

      I'm wondering if e-commerce sites selling glasses will have to be accessible to the blind...

    69. Re:Fine with me by EdIII · · Score: 1

      You can argue this to death all you want, but none of what you are saying really matters for a very simple reason:

      It's. Not. Practical.

      The justice department already stated they are considering making it clear that personal and non-commercial content will be exempt. Well..... duh. My home does not have to be ADA compliant, and there are a plethora of examples where some groups are discriminated against and it is still legal. Men only clubs, women only clubs, and even clubs where they disqualify contestants because they were not gay enough. Not making that last one up.

      Personal private property, which does include personal web sites and services (ie, remote access, personal VOIP), and non-commercial stuff (Slashdot, XDA-Developers, Afterdawn, Doom9, etc.) is not going to be affected by the new law.

      That leaves commercial. We all know that is not going to be affected because it is not practical. By practical, I mean all the web hosters will lobby congress (GoDaddy) because they will be forced to shut down customer websites and severely impact their cash flow.

      You can be a "hard ass" about it and just throw away a large percentage of the commercial websites that are not ADA compliant... but have you considered how much money it will cost to bring it into compliance?

      Yeah.... a shit load. If money was not the problem here we would have already retired Internet Explorer 6. Talk about a bunch of crappy business websites and portals using ASP, and god knows what else. Those businesses have a hard enough time as it is getting those websites redone.

      So we could do it your way and throw away 80% of the content on the web, raise the barrier to entry ridiculously high for the personal websites and non-commercial hobby stuff, but you ain't touching business.

      If there is one thing you can count on in this country it is corruption.

      You want practical? Have the law demand that all commercial web tools create ADA compliant websites out of the box by 2014. Give them 2 years of development time. Grandfather in all the existing commercial websites and demand that all commercial websites created after 2014 must be compliant. Those companies that do have the money and will modify their websites will have to modify it to be ADA compliant or leave it in the grandfathered state. Allowing grandfathered websites to exist, as long as they are not changed, will protect small mom and pop businesses that really don't have the money for new development and would be greatly harmed by the lack of advertising and business from having their web presence removed.

      Ohh, and demand that companies like GoDaddy that offer hosted services AND free development tools to anyone (including personal) make only ADA compliant web sites too.

      You can be idealistic all you want, but practicality is going to win out at some point. Either that or corruption. Every time.

      P.S - What about schools? I know of a lot private schools right now that have websites where you can log in and check homework and schedules. Are you going to force them to spend thousands of dollars with a developer to redo their sites when quite a few of their teachers are using out-of-pocket money to buy chalk right now?

    70. Re:Fine with me by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      well, for a government.

      AFAIC if a gov't wants to do this, whatever, it's the matter of the public that spends their money on that gov't. If they vote for politicians who end up taking in more and more public money, or borrowing and printing it, well, then gov't can 'afford' all these things.

      (until it collapses the economy with all the borrowing, spending and taxing and regulations etc. See Greece and USA and eventually UK and Spain and Portugal. Also see former places like USSR, Zimbabwe, Argentina....)

      Yeah, gov't surely can do whatever it wants as long as they can still fake solvency.

      --

      But a private company? Now imagine that Google had to transcribe every youtube video.

      How many people do they have to hire to do that?

      --

      What if facebook had to transcribe all images and sounds and whatever they do there?

      How many people do they have to hire to do that?

      etc
      --

      Understand, that all of this is make-shift work enforced by gov't. This is NOT productive in any way, this is mis-allocation of resources. Resources that could be used on whatever the companies rather use it on. Companies that can either use these resources to come up with new tech and new tech applications, solutions to real business problems that the market needs. Or they can do what the gov't forces them: let's say 100% of all videos have to be transcribed.

      Holly crap. If there was an actual MARKET for that, there'd be a service, and the deaf/blind would be able to use that service and that service would figure out how to transcribe those videos and sounds, and because it takes resources to do all of that work, that service would have to find a way to pay for all that work.

      BUT IT MUSTN'T BE GOVERNMENT FORCED.

      It's what is wrong with the economy - gov't forced garbage is killing it. Subsidies to businesses, Wars, all military spending, SS, Medicare, wage laws, price controls, taxes, rules, laws, regulations....

      Yes, I am that guy, I believe that the gov't is killing economy by every single action it is taking.

      The only use for a gov't is protection of liberties:

      1. Minimum military
      2. Justice dep't
      3. Possibly cops/prisons.

      Everything else gov't does is mis-allocation of other people's resources by gov't. This is the same, and it's just as stupid.

    71. Re:Fine with me by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How hard is it to use HTML and CSS the way they were meant to be used, and to provide alternative content? Sorry, not buying this one at all.

      Kid, I started doing this HTML stuff when there was no such thing as CSS, and HTML pages were built in a text editor and optimized for 14k modem connections.

      Yes, in those times it was easy, since the content was largely linear.

      Today, I have tabbed websites which exchange the content of their tabs on-demand through AJAX calls. I have no friggin idea what a screenreader will do with that, and if they all behave the same way. Yes, I could find out. No, I don't see it as my responsibility to do so. How about making it, you know, your screen readers job to translate whatever I throw at him nicely, as long as it is standard-compliant HTML?

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    72. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You know, jokes about disabled people usually fall flat. That was no exception. Oh, and I know that people who have gone blind later in life like to give gifts like glasses because they want their family to appreciate sight while they have it.

    73. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's. Not. Practical.

      They said the same thing about forcing places to allow blacks and whites to eat at the same counter, or put in ramps in every public building. It wasn't true then, and it isn't true when you say it.

    74. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      TFA says exceptions will be made for some *personal* web sites.

      I appreciate your rant. However, this sentence is the core of the issue. The article makes it clear that there isn't a consensus. That the issues haven't been hammered out. That they are proposed changes.

      And we have people picking out one or two details they don't like, focusing on those, and declaring that the cripples should just go elsewhere.

      Apparently there are lot of people that hate the ADA. They don't want it applied anywhere. They are arguing against it here, not because it's a bad idea to apply a law evenly across different areas of life, but because they don't like the ADA in the first place. But to claim that the ADA helps many people and then turn around and pick one detail from a non-existent regulation and declare it bad because of that seems silly. To require that people have access for disabled people to drive to a store, park at the store, enter the store, call the store, shop at the store in person, and all that but then declare that shopping online isn't protected under the ADA and shouldn't be seems backwards. We are working to move more online, and to declare that those who are least capable should have greater roadblocks added, especially for someone that supports the ADA in principal seems logically inconsistent.

      If someone thinks the ADA is bad (many of whom also declare that the civil rights movement was bad, since it's government interference in private business), then they are at least consistent. But to like the ADA and want to block the ADA from applying online seems very inconsistent. Especially when ADA compliance should be default on all web pages (if the rules and the pages are both written sanely).

    75. Re:Fine with me by isorox · · Score: 1

      Commercial sites created with no forethought at all to handicapped people are to blame.

      I assume the site in your sig isn't commercial, but that background doens't really help it's readability (unless you're blind, ironically). I've thought about a trip to Alaska before, but your unreadable page really turns me off the idea.

    76. Re:Fine with me by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      HTML and CSS can not accomplish what the ADA is demanding.

      HTML and CSS separate presentation from content, which is what is necessary to make content accessible.

      Think about screen reader technology for the blind. Today even the best of these can not even handle a mildly complex page. I've tried them out at a friends house. They are crap.

      You've tried them out, so they're crap? Very good then sir, I retire in disgrace.

      How do you serve music to the deaf?

      You won't have to, although I'm sure someone is going to have to go through court over it to prove it.

      And how do you serve online game content to the guy typing with his one hand, or his feet.

      Input isn't your problem. Console manufacturers are the only ones who are really going to get stuck for that and they've been thinking about it at least since Nintendo built a chin joystick with a suck-blow interface for the A and B buttons for the NES.

      If you think this is easy, why don't you try it.

      OK. As soon as I get ubercart figured out I'll add commerce to my site.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    77. Re:Fine with me by isorox · · Score: 1

      but couldn't tell denominations of money and other things that would make independent living very difficult

      I find this a worrying thing about america. Your notes are all the same. In the UK, the larger the note, the larger the denomination, you don't need to be able to see to work out if you're handing a 5 or a 20. Same with coins.

      In the US, 1s, 5s and 20s (and I assume 100s) are the same size, and same colour. You have to inspect them closely to work out if you're being ripped off in your change. A nice simple benefit to people with deteriorating eyesight would be different sizes and colours in your currency.

    78. Re:Fine with me by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Dynamic isn't the problem, or at least if it is, it should not be the operator's responsibility to make it so. The problem is poor layout. It's difficult to make an interface which looks stupid, but the customer often specifies stupid. Most rational interfaces are pretty easy to put together in a logical fashion.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    79. Re:Fine with me by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      So you are fine with totally redesigning the net under government edict.

      Nobody is going to have to totally redesign anything.

      Are you kidding me? This is the net! It's all bits anyway... We've already got various readers and helper applications and plugins to display content in different forms. We're already scraping screens with scripts. We're already manipulating and mangling the content.

      Will work need to be done? Sure.

      Is it some ginormous, insurmountable mountain of effort? Nope.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    80. Re:Fine with me by Rysc · · Score: 1

      And we have people picking out one or two details they don't like, focusing on those, and declaring that the cripples should just go elsewhere.

      Apparently there are lot of people that hate the ADA. They don't want it applied anywhere. They are arguing against it here, not because it's a bad idea to apply a law evenly across different areas of life, but because they don't like the ADA in the first place

      I've read the entire discussion up to this point and I can say without fear of error that you are full of shit. No one has expressed undue hatred of the ADA, just the impossibility of strictly conforming given current technologies and the ridiculousness of requiring conformance across the board.

      I'm a web developer and I can tell you precisely how insanely difficult it is to make web apps that do anything non-trivial function *at all* across browsers even when you don't think twice about the blind. We all try to conform to standards but at the end of the day business interests win. I would dearly like to publish only strictly-conforming and standards-compliant web sites, but to do so would be business insanity since my requirements include being friendly, easy and attractive. Doing those three things in all major browsers often requires odious practices I would rather not do, but these things are necessary to be commercially successful. It is a complete fallacy to suggest, as TFA does, that supporting the blind is mostly easy and not costly. In fact supporting the blind in an initial design is difficult and shoe-horning support in at a later time without a rewrite would be even more so, bordering on "complete rewrite required" - and these things are costly. It would literally cost hundreds of millions of dollars of labor to require all non-personal web pages to be re-done, more so if you start classifying "personal" very narrowly.

      and then turn around and pick one detail from a non-existent regulation and declare it bad because of that seems silly.

      It's a bit of an overreaction, sure, but reacting to news is what Slashdot is for. Declaring this detail to be bad is easy: It is a bad idea to require the majority of web sites to be rewritten on a government-mandated deadline in the name of accommodation of theoretical visitors.

      and all that but then declare that shopping online isn't protected under the ADA and shouldn't be seems backwards.

      Ah, but nobody said "Online stores must be ADA compliant" what they said was "ALL sites, but we may make some few exceptions for some personal sites." Not every site is "personal" or "online store"; in fact, those two together don't amount to a fraction of the web.

      But to like the ADA and want to block the ADA from applying online seems very inconsistent. Especially when ADA compliance should be default on all web pages (if the rules and the pages are both written sanely).

      The fact that you can say this with a straight face is a clear indication that you are misunderstanding what's at stake here. In the first place it's laughable to suggest that the government will require web developers to write sane pages, though I for one would be amused to see such legislation passed. In the second place I will reiterate: Sane web pages are not sufficient. If that were all there was to it all right-thinking web developers everywhere would be cheering that their embarrassingly-awful brethren are going to be required to shape up or stop publishing.

      --
      I want my Cowboyneal
    81. Re:Fine with me by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Every browser that you add support for adds cost

      The nice thing about supporting, say, a blind person, is that there is almost no incompatibility between browsers to worry about. Blind people are not going to benefit from CSS, Javascript, or Flash. They do not even need a GUI. If your web page would render on a browser from 1993, then blind people should be capable of interacting with it (I would like to think that browser in 2010 can still render pages from 1993, when there was only HTML, but perhaps I am wrong?).

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    82. Re:Fine with me by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      How about making it, you know, your screen readers job to translate whatever I throw at him nicely, as long as it is standard-compliant HTML?

      Perhaps because the technology is not quite there yet? You are talking about a screen reader that would be able to process a nightmarish mess of AJAX the same way that a human being does, then rewriting it in a way that is useful for a blind person. Are you familiar with that kind of technology, and could you perhaps send me some information about it?

      What you said would be a little more feasible if there were some kind of standard for web page layouts. The way tabbed websites exchange content between tabs is something that varies from website to website, and the meaning of those sorts of exchanges vary. Screen readers have an easier time when it is at least possible to locate the text that should be rendered; if that keeps shifting around, getting changed by AJAX, and so forth, it is a much harder problem to solve; when the way it gets shifted varies from website to website, it becomes that much harder.

      When you get right down to it, blind people do not really benefit much from fancy website layouts. Why is it so damned hard to provide the text in a way that makes sense for the blind? Why is providing a version of the page that has no Javascript, and just includes text, links, and possibly form elements something that people seem to think is unreasonable? Surely a modern web application framework is capable of not being fancy?

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    83. Re:Fine with me by RichiH · · Score: 1

      If that rule is "keep it simple and standards-compliant", I can't see where the butthurt is coming from. But then, I use the text mode of /.

    84. Re:Fine with me by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Yes, because improving the access for the blind requires hurting everyone else.

      Gee.. I wonder why anyone would ever think that.

      Yes, because improving the access for the blind requires hurting everyone else. Or, it could be more like the DVD options for the vision impaired where sighted people get the DVD without any reductions, and the vision impaired select the audio track that includes a description of the on-screen events.

      Funny.. I never saw a DVD that had options like that. They must not be required to do that, or perhaps blind people pay extra for a special version of the DVD prepared by someone else?

      That improves access for the vision impaired while not hurting the experience for any sighted person.

      Can you explain what possible audible "description" could allow blind people to access Visual artwork?

      Take for example... The Mona Lisa or Van Gogh's Starry Night.

      It seems impossible to appreciate the work without actually seeing it. Anyone trying to describe it is just giving you some sort of interpretation, which is inherently incomplete, and basically devoid of value, because the art itself is something richer that can only truly be appreciated or "accessed" by direct viewing

    85. Re:Fine with me by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Nobody is asking the web designers to make the blind see, the deaf hear.

      Much of the problem with web accessibility is the low quality of screen reading software. How long did it take major screen readers to support stuff like ARIA? It's shameful.

      Screen readers generally don't support aural css. Know why? They claim that web developers don't apply it properly so there's no point supporting it. Okaaay..

      Screen readers for years and years complained about dynamic content, source order of content not matching screen order, etc. And you have these amazing open source browsers, on the other hand, that the screen readers could interact with, write plugins for, contribute patches for, etc.

      Basically screen readers are not very innovative. Why isn't it easy to make a screen reader enter something like "news browsing mode" where it reads 5 headlines simultaneously in different voices and lets the user narrow in on the ones that sound interesting?

      Okay forget innovation. How about simple developer friendliness? You'd think JAWS would say "If you're a developer, we will give you a free license to make sure your product works with ours." Guess what the reality is? Time limited demo that makes you reboot after like 1/2 hour.

    86. Re:Fine with me by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Perhaps because the technology is not quite there yet? You are talking about a screen reader that would be able to process a nightmarish mess of AJAX the same way that a human being does, then rewriting it in a way that is useful for a blind person. Are you familiar with that kind of technology, and could you perhaps send me some information about it?

      Nobody would claim it's easy, or that a completely general solution would work. But come on. There are some major UI toolkits out there, Dojo, jquery, YUI, etc. Do screen readers even bother supporting those? Do they understand when a site was generated by Joomla or Drupal and say "Oh look this li is marked with this css class, this is clearly a menu?"

      Nope. "Too much work." They want to put all of the burden on web developers. And of course the big screen readers largely don't support the standards that DO exist. Look up screen reader support for aural css for instance. It took years for screen readers to start supporting ARIA. They are lazy and don't innovate, bottom line.

    87. Re:Fine with me by stdarg · · Score: 1

      They created the high rise with stairs-only and are whining that adding an elevator to their walk-up is expensive. You had to think about that for every commercial building built in the last few generations.

      The equivalent on the web is that any browser, regardless of its capabilities, can access the same html and css as any other browser.

      What you're suggesting is that the actual content of the online stores has to become accessible. That's like saying every Barnes and Noble has to have a braille translation, in stock, of every single book they carry. It's just ridiculous.

      Accessibility is there, it's up to screen reading software to make good on it. Equal opportunity, not equal outcome.

    88. Re:Fine with me by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      So, it doesn't apply _at all_ to private entities creating websites, which seems to be largely what this change is about, and it also pretty much says that if it's too hard to implement, you don't have to. How is that a problem?

      It's a problem when your client is the government, and they require it. Then it's a problem.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    89. Re:Fine with me by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

      I seem to have struck a chord and I'm sorry about that. Down here in France we joke about pretty much everything.

    90. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Not my page (I believe there may be one or more references to me on it, but I am not responsible for any of the content, for layout, creation , editing, or in any other way). I'm not in Alaska. And if a single web page were to dissuade you from an adventure, then you are a weak minded fool. But more likely, you are just a liar, lying for rhetorical effect. But to each his own.

    91. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I think what I'm asserting is that if the book Barnes and Noble sells is available in Braille, that they shouldn't refuse to order the book for you because they don't pander to crippled people. Now, some people have assumed that "shouldn't" means that I want the government to force them to do something, or that I'm really asserting that Barnes and Noble should be required by law to hire someone to drive them to and from the store and read the book to them in bed, or some other ridiculous assertion because such straw men are easier to attack than my actual statements. If you want to discuss what I say, please do so. If you want to invent analogies that I disagree with, assert tha they are my opinion, then demonstrate that my opinion is wrong because your analogy is flawed, let me know so I can stop wasting time.

      Accessibility is there, it's up to screen reading software to make good on it.

      That's an absurd statement. The physical equivalent is to claim that stairs are accessible to people in wheelchairs because there exist some prototypes that are expensive and don't work well that traverse stairs. While technically true, it most certainly isn't equal access. Barnes and Noble is required by law to make the contents of their store available to handicapped people. Why are you OK with that applying to the physical store and against applying that to the online one?

    92. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Funny.. I never saw a DVD that had options like that. They must not be required to do that, or perhaps blind people pay extra for a special version of the DVD prepared by someone else?

      Go rent the standard version of the most recent Star Trek movie (it's one I know has it off the top of my head, and I know many others have it). Try looking at the language options on DVDs from the last few years.

      It seems impossible to appreciate the work without actually seeing it.

      Asserting your incorrect opinion as fact doesn't make it true. Add to that the fact that it isn't addressing the issue, and it's even more useless. Yes, it would be impossible to describe something in great enough detail that they'd be able to recreate it flawlessly. But that doesn't mean that understanding of it can't be conveyed. I've seen the Mona Lisa in person. Have you? If you haven't, how can you know anything about it? After all, you, at best, had a representation presented by someone else. So you can't appreciate it without actually viewing it in person?

      "A realistic portrait of a woman with an expression on her face that seems plain, yet has spawned thousands of theories about it" is vastly better than "insert picture here, don't worry, you'll never appreciate it because you are inferior, so we won't even bother to tell you what it is, neener neener neener." You are apparently favoring the second, since the first is wasted on sightless people.

    93. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I've read the entire discussion up to this point and I can say without fear of error that you are full of shit.

      Funny, I've read through what you claim to have read through and read the opposite. There are the Libertarians claiming that businesses should get to decide what to do. That includes excluding blacks and cripples if they choose. The government has no authority to tell any person how they can do business.

      So you are the one that is full of shit, or you just skimmed to where we are now and missed the libertarian drivel that is so common here.

      I'm a web developer and I can tell you precisely how insanely difficult it is to make web apps that do anything non-trivial function *at all* across browsers even when you don't think twice about the blind. We all try to conform to standards but at the end of the day business interests win.

      And when the business interests require accessibility, doesn't everyone win? All browsers, all people, and since everyone else has to do it too, there's no undue burden against any one company. Oh wait, accessibility for all is communist, and we are capitalist where we should be able to tell the Blacks to eat in the alley where they belong, if we so choose, like the libertarians tell us.

      The fact that you can say this with a straight face is a clear indication that you are misunderstanding what's at stake here.

      What's at stake? You can't even parse a single sentence, how can I think you understand what's at stake? Yes, crap developers will have a bad time of it, and business who negligently design web pages will have trouble. But the initial "goal" of HTML was to render platform (and browser) independent. "At stake" is that the web might actually have to conform to that. Oh horror.

    94. Re:Fine with me by mysidia · · Score: 1

      "insert picture here, don't worry, you'll never appreciate it because you are inferior"

      Nothing wrong with "insert picture here"

      The "you are inferior" part is absurd. Just because you cannot appreciate something does not mean you are inferior, but it does not mean other people owe you something special either.

      You may be able to describe the significance of the picture, and what it depicts, but by doing so, you have not really done anything that will allow your blind visitor to perceive the art; in other words, you have accomplished almost nothing, and expended significant effort that will only hurt 95% of your audience, by their browser having to download those extra bytes of data.

      I am sure there are other modes of expression that are more suitable to blind people, that most sighted people cannot perceive, for example, braille writing.

      That does not mean blind people should want to go out of their way to make their expressions accessible to sighted people by printing their work only in Braille, or websites that can only be read with a screen reader that sighted people don't have.

      However, I have no problems with them doing so.

      As for photography not being a realistic rendition of Mona Lisa: if you look at enough photos by a large enough number of photographers, you will have an extremely good representation of Mona Lisa.

      After all... when you see it, all you will see is a 2D representation anyways. Pictures on a flat surface can be represented with 100% accuracy using photographs.

      The same cannot be said of descriptions of said images.

    95. Re:Fine with me by stdarg · · Score: 1

      If you want to discuss what I say, please do so. If you want to invent analogies that I disagree with, assert tha they are my opinion, then demonstrate that my opinion is wrong because your analogy is flawed, let me know so I can stop wasting time.

      Sorry that I offended you. I think your examples are flawed because you are comparing requirements that enable access TO brick and mortar stores with requirements that enable access to all of the content WITHIN an online site, and basically saying "if stores can do it, so can sites." In reality, the latter is more work than the one-time cost of installing a ramp, etc. Sites are much more dynamic than buildings after all. I don't see how you are missing the obvious lack of parity there.

      So from the other direction I extend your example to saying okay, then everything inside brick and mortar stores should also be accessible. If every image on a website need a descriptive alt tag, then every book inside Barnes and Noble needs a braille version. Explain to me why that logic doesn't work in your world view. To me it's clear that access to a store (ramps, etc) corresponds to access to a website (net neutrality, etc), and access to the content of a website (alt tags, etc) corresponds to access to the content of a store (braille books, etc). Explain why that's wrong.

      That's an absurd statement. The physical equivalent is to claim that stairs are accessible to people in wheelchairs because there exist some prototypes that are expensive and don't work well that traverse stairs. While technically true, it most certainly isn't equal access.

      No it's not absurd, it's an important point to consider, especially when drafting legislation. 35 years ago when ADA was created, mechanized stair-climbing robotic wheelchairs were science fiction. Are you claiming that the ability to parse a webpage is as far out of reach as that?

      Hobbyist virus writers routinely steal information from browsers, even on bank websites that go out of their way to obfuscate the PIN entry, etc. Were hobbyist roboticists toying around with stair-climbing robots that could support a full grown person 35 years ago? I don't think so. Your comparison is really lopsided.

    96. Re:Fine with me by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Your assumption is that the laws will be used to force compliance with the ADA and help the disabled. How naive.

      The law will be used to:
      -raise the entry bar for new competitors
      -eliminate competition from all of those pesky small sellers
      -eliminate free speech
      -demonize target groups

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    97. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The "you are inferior" part is absurd. Just because you cannot appreciate something does not mean you are inferior, but it does not mean other people owe you something special either.

      You are the one being absurd. You asserted that because one can't fully appreciate something that it is a waste of time to try. A minor mocking of that and you can see that it's absurd. I can't understand why you can't see it until mocked. But then, dogmatic thinking is much more prevalent than rationalism.

      After all... when you see it, all you will see is a 2D representation anyways. Pictures on a flat surface can be represented with 100% accuracy using photographs.

      The Mona Lisa is probably the worst possible example for this (the casing of glass and barriers), but if you think a painting is 2D only, then you have never experienced art. Look at a Seurat from far away or in a picture and it will not have the same effect as seeing it in person. Pointilism is different when one can see the 3D texture of the dabs of paint, as opposed to the 2D representations, as well as the resolution of the depiction having a large impact on the experience.

      So if you can assert that a picture of a painting is just as good, I can assert that a description is also just as good. And your unfounded opinion doesn't trump everyone else's unfounded opinions.

    98. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I think your examples are flawed because you are comparing requirements that enable access TO brick and mortar stores with requirements that enable access to all of the content WITHIN an online site, and basically saying "if stores can do it, so can sites."

      And I think they are the same. You don't put in ramps to a store, then move everything on the shelves to 5' or higher so that no one sitting in a wheel chair can reach it. Sure, there will be some items on some shelves in some stores that would be hard for a chair-bound person to reach, but in general, access isn't so they can get into the store and see all the things they can't access, but to directly access the content of the store, which does include a ramp to get in.

      So from the other direction I extend your example to saying okay, then everything inside brick and mortar stores should also be accessible. If every image on a website need a descriptive alt tag, then every book inside Barnes and Noble needs a braille version. Explain to me why that logic doesn't work in your world view.

      You are going from the store to the content of the content of the store. I'm talking about the content of the store, not the content's content. Perhaps you have an argument that extending my argument to the physical world would be requiring all price tags on the shelves to also be in Braille...

      Someone who is disabled, say a dangerous peanut allergy, doesn't get to demand that the peanut butter be 100% peanut free. They do get to demand that there not be peanut dust sprayed into the air as an air freshener. The blind person doesn't get to demand that Barnes and Noble provide them with a Braille version of a book when no Braille version exists. But they do get to demand to be able to reasonably get to that merchandise and buy the printed version, if they so choose.

      Are you claiming that the ability to parse a webpage is as far out of reach as that?

      When the web page is purposefully displayed in the most obfuscated manner possible, then yes. People are purposefully displaying pages in a manner that directly impairs the ability to use accessibility tools. They aren't doing it specifically to break accessibility tools, but they are specifically taking actions that they know (or should know) will break those tools. Making a reader that works well with all content when content providers are trying to break tools that work well with all content is as hard as making a stair climber. Applying the ADA to the web is necessary because of the actions of the designers (and to hear the designers whine on this board, the managers that employ the designers who refuse to take responsibility) who are purposefully breaking the web's interoperability goals.

      If everyone were to design web sites with the intention of having Lynx through the most recent/popular browsers work, then there'd be no problem. The ADA was pushed in because they were a minority that was being discriminated against. Did the ADA "go too far"? In a number of areas it did, and there are plenty of valid complaints against it. But was it necessary to bring handicapped people out of second-class status? Yes. If the web designers weren't working so hard towards a goal that directly harms handicapped people, there'd be no need to attempt to apply the ADA to the web. But they are. So there is.

    99. Re:Fine with me by tallin32 · · Score: 1

      Businesses are being closed daily through ADA lawsuits. It is one thing to suggest compliance to a list of good design points, but to make sites open to lawsuits is just another way to make the US uncompetitive. We must at least get a "You lose, you pay." tort system.

      I'm actually curious ... for all that people have been commenting on businesses being closed due to ADA lawsuits, not one person has been kind enough to cite an example. Could you provide one?

      Maybe I do not wish to assist the blind in my business (IT). I actually had a blind client and he was a lot of trouble. He lost his sight, had all the tools, but was very angry at the world. He often took it out on me and one day I had enough and walked out. I didn't stop serving him because he was blind, but that he was an ass. I see helping the blind to be very difficult for all the technology is useless unless the people choose to use it. For all my efforts, I cannot make the blind see.

      Wait a second. You just stated that you stopped serving him not because he was blind, but because he was an ass. This is understandable, and I applaud you for making that distinction. Yet, in the same paragraph, you seem to imply that, were I to come into your hardware store, I would be judged at least in part by your experiences with this one person?

      A related story: I was flying from Seattle to Las Vegas via Austin once. Per some unspoken regulation I have no clue of, they had alerted the Austin ground crew that an OMGBLIND! person was on this flight, and could they provide what they felt was the necessary assistance?

      This consisted of someone with a wheelchair. The logical thing to do there seemed to be for me to jog towards the gate for my connecting flight. When she had informed me that ".. the last blind person needed the wheelchair" (doing, as seems to have been illustrated above, the exact same thing—judging all by the one), I'd casually informed her that that was wonderful, as the last woman I talked to prefered women, and if she would be so good as to contact her girlfriend, I'd gladly take the wheelchair.

      My wife is deaf and I find assisting the deaf as something I can do quite well. However, with the ADA, I can no longer pick my customers. If I help the deaf, but feel I cannot help the blind, will I be sued? So, when I end up closing my business due to a blind person being dissatisfied with my ADA efforts, the whole community will lose another resource, including the deaf.

      ... OK, I take back the uncertainty I had previously about you judging all by the one. That, right there, was a definite example. Does this mean that, if a black person makes a condescending statement such as, for instance, that I should stay in my house rather than be out in public, I should hate all black people? A bit extreme, yes?

    100. Re:Fine with me by Tom · · Score: 1

      You are talking about a screen reader that would be able to process a nightmarish mess of AJAX the same way that a human being does

      Actually, no. I am talking about a screen reader that would be able to process a nightmarish mess of AJAX the same way that one of the many existing browsers are quite capable of doing. Figuring out how to present that best to a blind person isn't my job, it's the job of someone familiar with that problem, who can certainly do it better than I can.

      What you said would be a little more feasible if there were some kind of standard for web page layouts. The way tabbed websites exchange content between tabs is something that varies from website to website, and the meaning of those sorts of exchanges vary.

      Which is exactly why the web allows for so much variety. What you're thinking of is making the whole web a MySpace clone, where you can pick some of the modules and that's it. Now I don't know about you, but to me, MySpace is not exactly the kind of crap that I want the Internet at large to become.

      When you get right down to it, blind people do not really benefit much from fancy website layouts.

      True. Now get this down: I'm not writing my website for blind people. To put it bluntly: I'm happy if my website is useful to them, too. If someone tells me how and it's not much extra effort, I may do a bit of additional markup or such to make that easier. But I'm not going to change the layout or basic functionality for a minority - any minority, really.

      Why is providing a version of the page that has no Javascript, and just includes text, links, and possibly form elements something that people seem to think is unreasonable?

      Because for some of the stuff I do, your request would mean to major rewrite, basically a second website. I don't have time nor inclination for that.

      Why is it so hard to accept that if you have a disability, some things in life are impossible? A blind person can never get the same satisfaction from a painting or a movie as a seing one does, just like someone without legs won't make a career in mountain climbing.

      I'm all for not making it intentionally difficult, but I'm strongly opposed to putting the burden of disabled people on the non-disabled population. I certainly feel sorry for everyone who is disable. But I'm not the one who has to work extra because you are blind.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    101. Re:Fine with me by Rysc · · Score: 1

      So you are the one that is full of shit, or you just skimmed to where we are now and missed the libertarian drivel that is so common here.

      I browse at threshhold 0 and order by oldest-to-newest. I read every single post from the start of the discussion down to yours excluding only those that were modded below 0 at the time. I saw nothing hateful and no anti-ADA sentiments except those that addressed this particular proposal, all of which were reasonable objections. I saw no serious suggestions that "blacks and cripples" should be excluded from anything; that kind of thing was only mentioned as a straw-man example by people defending the ADA, not brought up as a good idea by those who think this proposal is silly.

      And when the business interests require accessibility, doesn't everyone win?

      No. It simply raises the barrier to entry. Want to have a web page? Better be prepared to make it accessible first, whatever the cost. Perhaps for-profit businesses with startup capital can afford that, though it is an additional expense, most of us cannot. Requiring this *up front* before one dollar is earned is unreasonably burdensome. Requiring it *retroactively*, ie for all existing pages, is just insane.

      Businesses that gain business, thus revenue, from catering to people who need accessibility win. People who need accessibility win if they use the sites that would be made accessible but currently aren't. Everybody else loses. It's the vast third category which is the problem.

      But the initial "goal" of HTML was to render platform (and browser) independent. "At stake" is that the web might actually have to conform to that. Oh horror.

      The failure of HTML to be independent is a technical one, mostly. I am all for a conforming web. If the government really wants that it needs to talk to the W3C to get the standards altered to require strictness and then pressure browser makers into removing quirks mode. The rest will follow. I would stand up and applaud such a move no matter what the motivation. Pretending that anyone is against a more-standards-conforming web is simply a false argument that avoids the issue.

      --
      I want my Cowboyneal
    102. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technology has made even less accommodating websites more accessible with better screen readers. I doubt many webmasters in the past expected to be held to a higher standard of accommodation than say, traditional print authors. Not every book, newspaper, or magazine is in braille or audio format, so why expect every site to be? On the upside, a screen reader allows most sites to at least be partially accessible in a way that traditional print was not.

      The web, even without accommodations, is more adaptable to the end user than any previous method of business. We do not have audio pricetags in stores, we tend to only have marquees for particularly important audible announcements (train/plane times, but not say... a Walmart intercom), etc. It is not unreasonable for many past webmasters to expect that what they were doing was BEYOND the standard business practice.

      In addition, the web has spawned so many tiny businesses that would have drowned in traditional commerce; to hold them to an even higher standard than traditional business is impractical.

      We've been told that we'll be required to update the military sites/apps to a high standard of accommodation. Some of it is a serious waste of money. I will be attempting to update a secure application that very few can access to be completely audible, which is only used for work that would not be practical for the blind (data entry of handwritten forms in a very particular situation). There is zero benefit to anyone, and there will certainly be a large cost. Even when it's done as best as possible, so much of the content is user generated that I doubt it will be better than half garbage.

    103. Re:Fine with me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Star Trek was a huge movie... not even all the blockbusters have that sort of accommodation.
      Many large business websites do have accommodations as well, and can afford them.

      That's a far cry from having all business sites (only "some" personal content exempt) accommodate everything. Right now someone can throw up a blog in 5 minutes and stick google ads on it - and it's a business, with taxable income (if very little). A small business can use a program to scan in their menu and post it while barely able to check their own emails. It benefits nobody to just outright kill off those sort of sites. We don't force those accommodations on significantly larger endeavors outside the net (go check out a smaller budget or even independent movie); why would those businesses online expect to run into this limitation? In the meantime, we might as well require them all to translate into a dozen or so languages - the language likely prevents just as many people from accessing these materials.

    104. Re:Fine with me by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 1

      I disagree.

      And have been fine for the past decade.

      Private site, my rules, and working well.

      --
      _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
    105. Re:Fine with me by mysidia · · Score: 1

      one can't fully appreciate something that it is a waste of time to try.

      It's not that they can't "fully appreciate" a piece of visual art. Blind people cannot appreciate at all by viewing the work. And text at best talks to them about what they are missing, or tells them the popular significance of what they can't see.

      That does not mean the description is worthless. However, the description does not provide any access to the work. The exception might be when a webmaster feels they need to take plain text and render it as GIF or Jpeg, for some aesthetic reason, in that case a description can provide access.

      Look at a Seurat from far away or in a picture and it will not have the same effect as seeing it in person.

      That's also irrelevant. You are going through the fallacy of trying to rationalize loss of depth as somehow comparable to the loss of the visual work altogether which occurs when making a description.

      You even admit that seeing the painting at a distance is equivalent to seeing a picture of it.

      Art work is not normally experienced by standing a foot away from it with a magnifying glass. For all intents and purposes, 99% of visual paintings are not 3 dimensional.

      And your unfounded opinion doesn't trump everyone else's unfounded opinions.

      I am not stating some unfounded opinion, but simple easily observable facts.

    106. Re:Fine with me by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Blind people cannot appreciate at all by viewing the work.

      But they can appreciate it.

      You are going through the fallacy of trying to rationalize loss of depth as somehow comparable to the loss of the visual work altogether which occurs when making a description.

      And I think you are wrong. A loss of appreciation, through any means, is a loss of appreciation. You are asserting some arbitrary value to the levels of appreciation and using those as the only ones of merit without justification.

      You even admit that seeing the painting at a distance is equivalent to seeing a picture of it.

      I said no such thing. I said looking at it from far away will diminish the effect. I said looking at it only in a picture form will diminish the effect. That two things can diminish an effect doesn't make them "equivalent."

      For all intents and purposes, 99% of visual paintings are not 3 dimensional.

      Then you understand art as well as you understand visual impairments.

      I am not stating some unfounded opinion, but simple easily observable facts.

      It is not a fact that I said that a picture of a painting and a painting at a distance are the same thing. You've taken your useless and incorrect opinion and asserted it as fact. You've not included any actual facts at all. Yes, blind people can't see paintings. But the assertion that they can't "appreciate" them is not a fact, but is instead your opinion. But you take that false opinion and base a whole line of other incorrect "facts" that you just made up. Not only are you not basing your statements on facts, you are basing them on incorrect opinions dressed up as facts. I just can't tell if you are intentionally lying or are just stupid.

  3. 'Some' personal, noncommercial content? by cobrausn · · Score: 1

    I would hate to see a bunch of people get fined because their personal website has only plain text and images.

    --
    How does it feel to be a liar with pants constantly on fire?
    1. Re:'Some' personal, noncommercial content? by the_humeister · · Score: 1

      Not just personal websites, but personal stuff on commercial websites may also not be affected (and should not either):

      FTFA:

      But what about personal photos on Facebook? Does Facebook have to make sure the photo content can be read aloud to a blind user?

      Perhaps not. The Justice Department is considering making it clear that some personal, noncommercial content would not be affected.

    2. Re:'Some' personal, noncommercial content? by cobrausn · · Score: 1

      I was just worried about the use of the word 'Some'. It seems to me all personal content should be unaffected.

      --
      How does it feel to be a liar with pants constantly on fire?
    3. Re:'Some' personal, noncommercial content? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Do note that key word:

      The Justice Department is considering making it clear that some personal, noncommercial content would not be affected.

      Plus, of course, that other key word "considering".

      Neither of those keywords give me a warm fuzzy about this....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    4. Re:'Some' personal, noncommercial content? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do note that key word:

      The Justice Department is considering making it clear that some personal, noncommercial content would not be affected.

      Plus, of course, that other key word "considering".

      Neither of those keywords give me a warm fuzzy about this....

      Host it somewhere else?

  4. It's about time by FullBandwidth · · Score: 1

    Letting people voluntarily make their web sites accessible certainly hasn't worked - for example, Flash content is the bane of visually impaired users but I don't see much of a movement to provide alternatives. I wonder if this means that popular OSs will have to provide real, working accessibility features and not bad jokes like Microsoft Narrator?

    --
    My friend Debbie Ann is so promiscuous, instead of an appointment book she needs a package manager
    1. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately I think this kind of thing is necessary.

      You can't rely on businesses to go out of their way to provide access to a relatively small group of people because, and I say this with no intended cruelty, they're probably not worth it. You can argue about PR and being "good guys" .. but at the end of the day, money is what makes the decision.

      Unless you sell a very niche product, chances are the amount of business you do with disabled persons probably won't come close to covering the costs of providing access.

      I think you really do need "the man" to come down and dictate that you have to make efforts to accommodate disabled persons.

      Lets just hope they don't do so in a way which actually makes things worse (which they will, they always do..).

    2. Re:It's about time by SirGarlon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exceptions should be made for personal pages, but for organizations, governments, and commerce sites that deal with the public, there shouldn't be any excuse.

      Well I kind of see the point of those who say the government shouldn't force private businesses to run their business a certain way. But I also see that that is the same argument of the manager who refused to serve black customers at the Woolworth's lunch counter.

      It boils down to the age-old questions: the conservative asks "what kind of government can we tolerate?" and the liberal asks "what kind of society do we want to be?"

      So I think you're going too far to say "there shouldn't be any excuse --" private property rights and general freedom from government interference are strong and valid arguments. On the other hand I don't want to turn back the clock to 1963, either. Life is better with civil rights legislation. It's easier to be proud to be an American. So I'm inclined to take your side and say to Web site operators, "suck it up, follow the law."

      I also think the government should be the first to implement its own usability requirements... stating with the Web site of the court that handed down this decision.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    3. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well for me, the matter isn't so much the website, but the software that can render a website (this includes flash, and video container types for subtitle transcripts). Right now, the software sucks. It doesn't matter if we're talking about some proprietary toolset or any of the open source initiatives, they simply suck. So, it doesn't matter how compliant a website is if the software to render the website can't do so for people with various disabilities. Making it the responsibility of web developers at this point in time is very stupid, imo.

    4. Re:It's about time by twotailakitsune · · Score: 1

      Yea. Till this year the US government has not been keeping their sites in line. Now a lot of things are happening with the government. Here is a link with links of things this year mostly: http://triton.towson.edu/~jlazar/abouthci.html

    5. Re:It's about time by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      I'd settle for getting rid of websites that insist you use internet explorer version 6 or above. I mean, sure we all know how much better IE6 or above is than any other browser out there, and how if you use anything other than internet explorer, you're asking for identity theft...

    6. Re:It's about time by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      I think you really do need "the man" to come down and dictate that you have to make efforts to accommodate disabled persons.

      Ok, here's the devil's advocate question: if none of my business is done with disabled folks, why should "the man" force me to produce web content suitable for them? They aren't coming to my website anyway. They don't care.

      Someone said that flash is the bane of the disabled. Well, it's the bane for me, too, because I don't run an OS with a flash player. (One of my systems is so old that Netscape 4.7 is the most current browser, and even on systems with an available flash player I disable it because it's distracting and a waste of CPU cycles for the vast majority of cases.)

      Nobody gives a damn that I can't use their website (and when I run into idiot companies who think a flash animation should be the sole content of their entry-level home page, I go elsewhere). Now, I'd benefit from some laws passed that make this kind of nonsense illegal, but I don't think they ought to be.

    7. Re:It's about time by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      But I also see that that is the same argument of the manager who refused to serve black customers at the Woolworth's lunch counter.

      The thing is that that wasn't really a problem. What was a problem was the manager that would have been happy to serve black customers at the Woolworth's lunch counter but wasn't allowed to because of the law.

      The problem pre-Civil Rights Act was not businesses discriminating against blacks voluntarily, it was the laws requiring businesses to discriminate. If it had just been businesses discriminating voluntarily, the market would have addressed the issue.
      Of course blacks represent a much larger percentage of the population than the deaf or the blind, so the market would work for them much more efficiently than for those with disabilities.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    8. Re:It's about time by afidel · · Score: 1

      Actually, for the big guys it's not a big deal, they can spend a relatively small amount of $ and service a large percentage of the affected audience, it's the small and medium sized guys who are hardest hit because they have probably 50-90% of the cost with a fraction of the audience. For example amazone has a sub-site for the visually impaired already and added text to speech fairly easily for the Kindle.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    9. Re:It's about time by hedwards · · Score: 1

      How is this dribble insightful?

      The disabled may be a small portion of the populace, but unless you sell a niche product, that can add up very quickly in terms of sales. Not just to the disabled, but to people that are using browsers that don't support flash, people that don't have a fast connection and people that for whatever reason don't allow javascript to execute on the page.

      It's easy to assume that you're throwing away an insignificant number of possible sales, but considering that the cost of compliance is so low, it's almost as stupid as those morons that make sites that can't be used with browsers other than IE or Firefox.

    10. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      since when does the internet have laws?

      good luck convincing me to make my website cater to anyone, disabilities or not. it's MY FUCKING WEBSITE.

    11. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of arguing who should and shouldn't be required, the government should provide incentives for businesses to transition to compliant websites.

      Now, which buildings must be ADA compliant in real life? Maybe we can make an analogy.

    12. Re:It's about time by roman_mir · · Score: 0, Redundant

      So what? Who are you to tell those websites HOW they should operate themselves?

      You don't like them? Don't use them. That's the correct solution.

      Your solution is terrible and will cause more economic problems.

    13. Re:It's about time by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Well, sure, businesses can 'suck it up'. But you are going to pay more and you will see less choice.


      I do not want to pay more than the market dictates.

      I do not want to see choices reduced because the pricing will drive some businesses out of business, and some will simply do much less than what they could have done, if the resources weren't mis-allocated.

      I want more choice, I want lower prices.

      AFAIC if those, who are impaired have a real need, they must pay for it to a service that will give them what they need - some transcription, etc.

      Every single thing gov't does is to the detriment of economy, sure you can argue that this is for the 'better of the society'.

      I am arguing that your gov't enforced economic policy will end up KILLING the society by destroying the economy.

      AFAIC you are the one who is completely shortsighted, not able to understand that a economy is the most important part of society in the first place.

      Economy is being destroyed by gov't regulations, laws, taxes, spending, borrowing and money printing. This will end up destroying society as well.

      It's not like it's the first time that it's going to happen, but people don't learn and they end up killing their economies and destroying their societies over and over throughout the history of humans.

    14. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's compromise: the government can ban mandatory computer periphals that scan a user's face, determine his race, and report it to the website for appropriate Jim Crow laws to be enacted;)

    15. Re:It's about time by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      AFAIC you are the one who is completely shortsighted, not able to understand that a economy is the most important part of society in the first place.

      Let's see here...

      "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

      And you say the economy ("general Welfare") is the only one of those that matters. You're entitled to that opinion of course, but you and I have very different ideas of what democracy is all about. I suggest China is a better society for you.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    16. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      most commercial site do have a phone number somewhere. If you can't navigate Target.com due to blindness, deafness, or idiocy, you are free to call them up.

      target.com > contact us > email or phone

      http://www.target.com/b/ref=br_bx_0/192-5850172-5095331?ie=UTF8&node=3370571

    17. Re:It's about time by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      First of all, you are correct. China IS a better society for me, that's why I am working on my Hong Kong related business, it's a start, right? AFAIC China is a much freer country today in terms of starting a new business that is not killed by gov't regulations, where there is a chance of real competition, where the system is not trying to stop the business. That's why Chinese economy is growing and pretty much all other economies are stagnating and/or shrinking.

      The most socialist governments in Europe, USA and UK, these are the relics of economic past. Eventually these governments will collapse their own societies, and these societies will have to rebuild without those governments. That's going to be free market, fixing the problem that the shortsightedness of the people is creating (and yes, democracy is a terrible system, it ends up very stupid, too bad there are no good substitutes yet, but obviously USA is not a real democracy, nor are most other places.)

      Secondly I agree with the Constitution of USA more than you do.

      I believe the only reason to have a gov't at all is to do these things:

      1. Minimum military to protect Freedoms and Liberties from foreign threats.
      2. Justice system to make sure that criminal and contract laws are enforced.
      3. I guess some cops/prisons, so that Justice system has teeth.

      --

      That's all. The 'general welfare' is exactly about having a working economy. Economy is destroyed by all gov't actions that are aimed at purposes of morality of justice. Economy does not benefit from any gov't forces that modify it and mis-allocate resources from private sector in any way.

      My 'perfect' society has gov't that only does the above mentioned 3 functions and funds it by sales taxes on some items (and probably returns the sales taxes to those, who cannot afford to pay them, I guess a more 'fair' tax, that's my only concession against the free market and for your argument.)

    18. Re:It's about time by amliebsch · · Score: 1

      Additionally, as I pointed out earlier, Woolworth's desegregated their lunch counter long before they were required to, because it was good for business.

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    19. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>So I'm inclined to take your side and say to Web site operators, "suck it up, follow the law."

      On behalf of the Troll Lawyers Association, we would like to thank you for your fine support.

      If you would like to join the TLA, you can visit us on our proud-to-be-ADA-compatible website.

      -Grishnak Elfslayer

    20. Re:It's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When it's commercial I agree. When it's personal I disagree, it would be me not wanting to server lunch to anyone who comes in my home -- regardless of race.

    21. Re:It's about time by sjames · · Score: 1

      It would be less of a problem if the various regulatory bodies would try actually helping you to become compliant first and saved the stick for people who simply refuse. That includes being clear about what's wrong, what would make it right, and giving plenty of time to fix it. And by plenty of time, I mean assuming life has to go on in the process, not "enough time" in the sense of if you stop all other activity and give up sleep you might just manage it. When the agencies tally their record for the year, fines handed out should go either in the neutral or failures column (or perhaps count as 1/10th of a success). Sites brought into compliance through simple notices and suggestions are the successes.

      Put another way, part of the kind of society I want to be part of is that it have a bit of patience and prefer gentle persuasion and assistance over a kick in the crotch.

  5. Some businesses will buck any change... by Angst+Badger · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...but I don't think most businesses (or most people, generally) have anything to object to here. What's likely to make people anxious about changes to the ADA is uncertainty over what those changes will involve.

    As a web developer, my main concern is just knowing what I'll have to do or do differently. It would be helpful if articles like this -- or their summaries -- provided links to the proposed guidelines. Personally, I'd prefer to get a head start on this so that my clients and I don't end up rushing to implement changes as the last moment.

    --
    Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    1. Re:Some businesses will buck any change... by homer_s · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "What's likely to make people anxious about changes to the ADA is uncertainty over what those changes will involve."

      Not to mention the possibility of large fines when my (commercial) websites aren't compliant with some obscure requirement in the new guidelines. And the cost involved in me dropping the 10 other things I'm doing to read the guidelines, check all my websites, make sure they're compliant or if they're not, spend time and money to fix them.

      So, no, my anxiety is not just about "uncertainty over what those changes will involve".
      (And people wonder why small businesses are not hiring!!)

    2. Re:Some businesses will buck any change... by literaldeluxe · · Score: 3, Informative

      ...but I don't think most businesses (or most people, generally) have anything to object to here. What's likely to make people anxious about changes to the ADA is uncertainty over what those changes will involve.

      As a web developer, my main concern is just knowing what I'll have to do or do differently. It would be helpful if articles like this -- or their summaries -- provided links to the proposed guidelines. Personally, I'd prefer to get a head start on this so that my clients and I don't end up rushing to implement changes as the last moment.

      Here you go: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ WCAG 2.0 is what the upcoming revision to Section 508 is being based on.

    3. Re:Some businesses will buck any change... by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      SO now I have to host my Pink Ponies site in RUSSIA? Fan-fucking-tastic.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    4. Re:Some businesses will buck any change... by hedwards · · Score: 0, Troll

      Small businesses aren't hiring because big businesses have effectively muscled them out of most markets. Any business that has put a good faith effort into complying with the ADA up to this point has little to worry about. Because most of the things that are likely to result in a suit would already be taken care of.

      It's a bullshit argument used by conservatives to imply that regulations are the cause of the uncertainty, when the reality is that it's the incompetence of the Federal reserve and the conservative politicians bending over backwards appease the multinational corporations.

    5. Re:Some businesses will buck any change... by Jiro · · Score: 3, Informative

      Small businesses aren't hiring because big businesses have effectively muscled them out of most markets....

      Yeah, and this will make it worse.

      Having more government regulations is great for big businesses. Making their website compliant (or following most other regulations) costs money, but that amount of money is peanuts compared to the overall profits of the business. Meanwhile, any small businesses that want to compete find themselves having to pay a sum of money that is a good chunk of (or even more than) their profit in order to ensure compliance. Net result: big business wins. The conservatives are actually opposing big business here.

    6. Re:Some businesses will buck any change... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I object. I just don't want to repeat the objection over and over.

    7. Re:Some businesses will buck any change... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      That means anybody with a grudge can bring down a noncompliant business that put "good faith" into it but didn't make it 100%.

      What a free society we live in today, it makes me real proud.

  6. you know.. im all for.... by ganjadude · · Score: 2, Insightful

    equality but I am sick of mandated equality. Let the market decide
    if store X does not want to cater to group Y (for whatever reason, infrastructure costs to accommodate group Y or simple dislike for group Y It should be the store owners prerogative.

    In this day and age, if people are THAT upset about it, they can organize boycotts until store X either changes, or goes under.

    here is a perfect example in NY

    smoking indoors is banned.... NOW I believe the store should have a right to dictate whether or not they want to allow smoking in their PRIVATELY OWNED establishment

    the customer will either complain, and ask that smoking be not allowed and not go back until it is, or if enough people are bothered, he will see it on his balance sheet and ban smoking himself.

    the government getting involved is always the answer to a question NO one asked.

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    1. Re:you know.. im all for.... by AuMatar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The market will always decide for whatever's cheaper, and will bias itself to cheaper now even if that costs it money over the long run. Unless the question is "How do I maximize to reduce costs to the lowest level" where cost is a single variable of money, using a market based solution is NEVER the right answer.

      Equality is something that is not broken down into mere money. So a market based solution will never address it. That's why we have government- to protect those who don't have the power to do so themselves (in this case, the handicapped). That's what's called "civilization". And yes, it takes a government to enforce it.

      I do hope that they do this the right way though. Businesses under a certain size should be exempted, perhaps on a sliding scale due to the costs of implementing this. Also, mere presence of an ad or two should not make it commercial, unless those ads bring in sufficient revenue. Large organizations like Amazon, Google, WalMart, Target, etc should absolutely be required to be accessible. Small sites like my local pizza joint likely can't afford it.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    2. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anrego · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's why we have government- to protect those who don't have the power to do so themselves (in this case, the handicapped).

      This is so depressingly true.

      Simply put.. it's not worth it financially to make your site accessible unless you are very large or sell certain niche products. For the vast majority of sites, the costs of making a site accessible (especially if you are required to rigidly follow some standard that you _know_ is gonna really suck and probably be counter to the purpose) are going to far outweigh any profits you reap from the handful of new visitors you bring in.

      It doesn't help that most technologies designed to assist the disabled only work if your site is ultra simple and has all kinds of added "helpers".

      Unfortunately you really do need a government to come in and say "ok, we know you're gonna take it in the shorts financially.. but you live in a civilized society and you have to suck it up and do what's right".

    3. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know, he might just be a pot-smoking libertarian. Might even be agnostic or something.

    4. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what? People WERE that upset about the smoking. That is why they DID organize themselves. And because it would be damn idiotic to go after one store after the other individually, they got the government to do something about it for every store/office building etc. That is a "question someone asked" the government. Your post just shows an anti-governmental attitude.

    5. Re:you know.. im all for.... by noidentity · · Score: 1

      But if we don't force these things on private businesses, they could theoretically band together and refuse to sell anything to the oppressed group, so that they literally starve to death, can't buy any clothing or anything. Since this is possible, clearly we must make laws to ensure that this won't happen.

    6. Re:you know.. im all for.... by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      The market will always decide for whatever's cheaper, and will bias itself to cheaper now even if that costs it money over the long run.

      No, it will bias towards what's more profitable. If they were biased toward cheaper, Ferrari would be making 900cc tricycles, not V12 supercars.

      And, in this case, few companies lose enough money to people who can't access their web sites to cover the cost of the time taken to support them.

    7. Re:you know.. im all for.... by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      wow.. anon got me right and BMO was way off, gotta love stereotypes though

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    8. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why we have government- to protect those who don't have the power to do so themselves (in this case, the handicapped).

      This is so depressingly true.

      Simply put.. it's not worth it financially to make your site accessible unless you are very large or sell certain niche products. For the vast majority of sites, the costs of making a site accessible (especially if you are required to rigidly follow some standard that you _know_ is gonna really suck and probably be counter to the purpose) are going to far outweigh any profits you reap from the handful of new visitors you bring in.

      It doesn't help that most technologies designed to assist the disabled only work if your site is ultra simple and has all kinds of added "helpers".

      Unfortunately you really do need a government to come in and say "ok, we know you're gonna take it in the shorts financially.. but you live in a civilized society and you have to suck it up and do what's right".

      That is not what's going to happen at all. In the long run you will make owning and operating a small business so onerous that few will decide to do it. Only the largest corporations can afford to comply with laws like this. They will then use their leverage to ship your job to China, India, or Bangladesh. You will have your "civilized society," but no money or future.

    9. Re:you know.. im all for.... by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      well yes, i am anti big government and i am pro the people. If I have a bar, i should be able to cater to smokers. Do you smoke? if you did you would know how much it sucks going to a bar in january and having to go outside to spark up. I understand not all people want to be around smokers, but it should be the establishment who decides. IF bars could still offer smokers an option, i would wager that the bars that DO offer it would increase their revenues fairly quickly because people like me would go there and not to the place we cant smoke.

      the simple point is that a blanket ban on XX is never the answer as each case is different.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    10. Re:you know.. im all for.... by the_humeister · · Score: 1

      Large organizations like Amazon, Google, WalMart, Target, etc should absolutely be required to be accessible. Small sites like my local pizza joint likely can't afford it.

      Those small businesses most certainly can afford it. Your local pizza joint already has to comply with ADA laws at their physical presence (wheelchair accessible restrooms, etc.). Compared with the time and cost of complying with ADA at a physical location, altering the website of a local joint for ADA compliance is rather trivial.

    11. Re:you know.. im all for.... by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      actually that couldnt happen, there are laws in place that are against collusion .

      even if that were true, someone in the "oppressed" group would be able to open their own store XX, and they would have ALL the business from the "oppressed" group, one man gets to move up in life, and the group can continue buying their products.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    12. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a terribly analogy.

      Ferrari's whole premise of existence is that they aren't part of the normal market; their customers want to consider themselves elite.

      A more useful car analogy would be actual mass-market companies like Hyundai, who... oh wait, yes, do bias towards cheaper. Funny that.

    13. Re:you know.. im all for.... by 0123456 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      IF bars could still offer smokers an option, i would wager that the bars that DO offer it would increase their revenues fairly quickly because people like me would go there and not to the place we cant smoke.

      One of the reasons why British pubs are closing at record rates is because most people who used to go to pubs smoked, and all those non-smoking drinkers who were supposedly so eager to go to non-smoking pubs failed to suddenly materialise after smoking was banned.

    14. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ADA is itself a messed up system that doesn't make anything any better for most people, only adds to the cost of doing business often to the point of driving people out of business.

      Locally there is a lawyer and a "disabled" person who do nothing but sue anyone for anything that is not ADA compliant. Wheel chair ramp off by 1% ?? Rail bar off by 1", door not exactly right ... anything.

      All the guy does is drive around town suing people. It doesn't help the "disabled" it only helps the one guy, the and his own pocketbook. Meanwhile the cost he's adding to the businesses has put several out of business. Nice huh?

      And not one disabled person complained, not one had problems getting service because THAT is not the issue, the issue is "legal compliance" and getting whatever fixed doesn't stop the lawsuit, because it isn't a "fixit" type thing. So they sue, and get their pound of flesh. It is a racket.

      Guess what, being disabled sucks. We should try to help people as best we can, but when asshats like the one lawyer and the "disabled" guy he sues for come knocking on your door, don't come complaining to me.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    15. Re:you know.. im all for.... by hxnwix · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately you really do need a government to come in and say "ok, we know you're gonna take it in the shorts financially.. but you live in a civilized society and you have to suck it up and do what's right".

      That is not what's going to happen at all. In the long run you will make owning and operating a small business so onerous that few will decide to do it. Only the largest corporations can afford to comply with laws like this. They will then use their leverage to ship your job to China, India, or Bangladesh. You will have your "civilized society," but no money or future.

      There are already many accessibility laws that affect small businesses. The most expensive must be building codes, and these have been around for years. Do you think it costs more to add some text-to-speech helper tags to a website than to build a ramp next to a stairway or to add a wheelchair accessible stall to the bathroom? Please.

      Furthermore, many small businesses provide local services that are not possible to offshore. Requiring wheelchair ramps and website tags will not cause the local muffler shop to move to Bangladesh.

    16. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      But if we don't force these things on private businesses, they could theoretically band together and refuse to sell anything to the oppressed group, so that they literally starve to death, can't buy any clothing or anything. Since this is possible,...

      I know this is slashdot and all, but have we truly forgotten how to shop for things without them being presented on a web page? I mean, my local grocery store doesn't HAVE a web page, and they certainly aren't going to "band together" with anyone to keep people in wheelchairs out.

      Get a grip, man. Nobody is going to starve to death because they can't access the web.

    17. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No they weren't assbag. YOU were. Since you don't like it, it's OK to stop others from smoking (and no, I am not a smoker). You're a dick smoker. Since I am not into that, should we stop you from enjoying that cheesy, shmegma goodness?

    18. Re:you know.. im all for.... by izomiac · · Score: 1

      The free market solution to the handicapped is to euthanize them since the vast majority consume more resources than they generate. The free market also resembles evolution in that it doesn't plan ahead, so public health concerns become a simple race to the bottom. Personally, I love the free market, but I acknowledge that it's not magic. Despite having less sympathy than most, I do prefer a little humanity in economics, and favor exploiting the market rather than being exploited by it.

      While I feel we meddle too much with the market already (and wish businesses acted more like businesses rather than entitled children -- see most piracy complainers), I see little fault in this move. Web designers have long neglected the disabled while the internet has quickly become vital to modern life. Many here would welcome eye-candy taking a backseat to usability and accessibility.

    19. Re:you know.. im all for.... by 0123456 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Requiring wheelchair ramps and website tags will not cause the local muffler shop to move to Bangladesh.

      But it could well be the extra regulatory cost that leaves said local muffler shop unable to compete with the national chain shop next door which outsources all non-customer-facing work to Bangladesh, thereby pushing the local shop out of business.

      This is why big business _LOVES_ this kind of regulation, they can easily afford to comply where small business can't. The funny part is that the kind of person who has the hots for this kind of regulation is usually also the kind of person who hates big business.

    20. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Do you smoke? if you did you would know how much it sucks going to a bar in january and having to go outside to spark up. I understand not all people want to be around smokers, but it should be the establishment who decides.

      It also sucks if you want to avoid smoke, but you can't afford to quit your job and find a smoke-free workplace to get hired at.
      As a customer you are only there for a while. The staff is there all day.

    21. Re:you know.. im all for.... by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      That's a terribly analogy.

      Which part of "The market will always decide for whatever's cheaper, and will bias itself to cheaper now even if that costs it money over the long run" is proving hard for you to understand? While I would agree that it's not the best example of the English language ever committed to the Internet, clearly the market does not _ALWAYS_ go for the cheap option, as even you seem to agree.

      And again, even Hyundai doesn't sell 900cc tricycles in North America even though they'd be cheaper than an Accent.

    22. Re:you know.. im all for.... by bmo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I used to be libertarian at one point. I grew the fuck up.

      Rand Paul, and his idiot son - the torchbearers (or maybe they should be pallbearers) of the ideology - demonstrate just how bankrupt that philosophy is. It's like Communism - looks good on paper until you involve actual human beings.

      I laid it on thick, but it seems like those who hold such thoughts are leeches upon society. "I like all the benefits of civilization, but don't you fucking ask me to contribute to it"

      Taxes and regulations are what we pay for civilization with. I'm ok with this. TANSTAAFL.

      --
      BMO

    23. Re:you know.. im all for.... by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      It also sucks if you want to avoid smoke, but you can't afford to quit your job and find a smoke-free workplace to get hired at.

      If you don't like smoke, then perhaps, just perhaps, you should have picked a career where most of your customers don't smoke.

      Just an idea.

    24. Re:you know.. im all for.... by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      hmm.. I wasn't aware that Christianity taught that you are your brothers keeper. Perhaps you could show me where it's in the bible? The closest thing I can find is where God asked Cain where Able was and he snarked back, "Am I my brothers Keeper?

      Perhaps your just confused in all your rush to make a comment about the rand fan and tea bagger? I do know you got the concept of the bill of rights wrong. It wasn't to stop a tyranny of the majority, it was to make certain that government couldn't take certain rights away. The argument for it was that government will always pervert it's role and seek more power and the argument against them was that the government could not do which it is not empowered by the constitution to do so it was redundant and unnecessary.

    25. Re:you know.. im all for.... by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Sure it does. Millions of hondas, GMs, toyotas, nissans, etc sold to a handful of Porsche, and Ferrari. And even fewer Bugattis.

      The fact that a niche market can still exist does not mean that the market didn't decide the cheaper car wins. It did, by a thousandfold.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    26. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 0

      Extremely insightful. Ofcourse there has to be a balance between the costs of society and the benefits. It can't be used to outright justify any particular government run program. It might be nice if the government cleaned my house, but I'm not sure that would be the best use of taxes.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    27. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Matthew 25:31-46

      31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

      If that isn't being a brother's keeper, I don't know what is.

    28. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just an idea, if you had a bar: Provide some shelter (how about a TEMPO, works for cars up here in Canada :)) and put some of those overhead gas heaters in there. Problem solved.

    29. Re:you know.. im all for.... by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      True, depending on your definition of "market."

      Ferrari and Hyundai (mentioned below) are not in the same market. They appear that way in that they are both making things called "cars" but the customer for a Hyundai is probably not considering a Ferrari and a customer for Ferrari is probably not considering a Hyundai.

      If you have a market, you compete for customers. Since they do not share customers, they do not compete.

      Furthermore, I'm quite sure that Ferrari will make decisions based on whatever's cheaper as long as they don't lose customers. If I'm selling leather for seats to Ferrari for $1000 and you're selling leather for seats for $100 and assuming the leather is of the same quality, I really doubt that Ferrari is going to say, "Yeah, we'll pay 10x the amount because our customers can afford it!"

    30. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I understand that it can sometimes be difficult to find a job. But seriously, you knew they smoked there before you accepted the job, just like those teenagers know that McDonald only pays 7 bucks an hour before they accepted a job. Just like the rotor rooter man knows hes gonna be elbow deep in someone elses shit. If you don't like your work environment, then do your best to find a different one.

      I hate how people want me to change to make their life easier.
      If you see me smoking and you don't want to smell it, walk around me. Trust me I didn't smoke there just to bother you. Please stop making up inane rules just to bother me.

      In other words, life sucks. It shouldn't be my responsibility to go out of my way to make your life not suck. The only job you can find is in a smokey bar. Well, I'm sorry. Life sucks, get used to it.

    31. Re:you know.. im all for.... by cob666 · · Score: 1

      In some states in the US you can bypass this law by turning your bar into a smoking club that serves alcohol, I believe the only requirement be that a place to smoke is the primary function of the establishment. I see them popping up here and there since those laws went into effect. For the record, I'm a non smoker and as much as I enjoy being able to eat without having to deal with second hand smoke I do feel that in an entertainment establishment (ie: bar, nightclub) where food is NOT the primary source of income, smoking should be allowed.

      Regarding the soon to come mandatory changes to web sites to comply with the ADA, there is NO WAY that a visually impaired user will be able to get 100% functionality from a complex web site such as BestBuy or Walmart. I'm all for allowing the establishment determine how accessible they want to make their web site and deal with the negative impact on sales if the store is boycotted by the blind. Forcing compliance through legislation and allowing a company to be sued because a blind person can't order something online from Target's web site is absurd to me.


      Something else to keep in mind, if all commercial sites are mandated to comply, how do you think porn sites are going to look?

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
    32. Re:you know.. im all for.... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Let the market decide

      Yes, because the free market ended "separate but equal." Oh, it didn't? Then I guess you are arguing that segregation is better for the US than not.

      the government getting involved is always the answer to a question NO one asked.

      Even having the government enforce a referendum? That's a wholly democratic process to have people vote in a law without the legislators (or close to that, depending on where), but even then it would have to be a law and enforced by the government. So not only are you a racist, you are anti-democratic. What do you want, anarchy? Because you state that anything the government does is in the worst interests of the people.

    33. Re:you know.. im all for.... by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      If you have a bar, and one of your employees wants to avoid cigarette smoke, how would you accommodate them?

      Substitute "cigarette smoke" with "sexual harassment" or "ethnic slurs" or "racial prejudice" or "constant proselytizing" until you come up with something you think should be illegal for employers to inflict on their employees.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    34. Re:you know.. im all for.... by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      Illinois actually banned this. Smoking is not permitted in any "structure" whatsoever. The only purpose I can assume is to punish smokers by making sure they smoke in the rain/snow/sleet.

      As an aside, all of these anti-smoking laws that suddenly popped up all around the world in most cases have nothing to do with the will of the people. Anti-tobacco groups, secretly funded by Big Pharma, put heavy lobbying pressure (and bribes) on legislators all over the world. For your health, of course. Coincidentally, smoking cessation products are VERY profitable for pharmaceutical companies.

    35. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      So, you really want the federal government to legislate the HTML structure of the pages on Amazon.com? Complete with fines and penalties for non-compliance? Seriously?

    36. Re:you know.. im all for.... by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's like arguing against safety in mines because "duh, mines are risky to work in." After all, if someone picks to be a miner, they know what they are getting into and shouldn't have any outside health and safety standards.

    37. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I call bullshit. In Oz, that effect hasn't been observed at all when smoking was banned in pubs/clubs.

    38. Re:you know.. im all for.... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      You mean anti-big government when it tells you to do something you don't like. Around here the voters voted to ban smoking pretty much anywhere outside of ones own home and well away from doors, windows and vents. It gets ignored, but it was a vote of the people that made it so.

      Additionally, smokers are a minority group, the numbers keep going down and at this point it's really questionable as to whether the rest of us really ought to be expected to put up with it. Especially given that smoking has no redeeming qualities.

      The reason why cigarettes are banned from bars and such is because of the workers. If it were simply a matter of the patrons, there's ways of handling that. You can seal off the smoking areas and have filters to remove the particulate matter.

    39. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Genda · · Score: 1

      No Problem, change the bar to a post apocalyptic decor, have the waitrons wear gas-masks, and serve flaming shotz. The bar will triple it's business as the "New IN Place", and the wait staff will be able to protect themselves from toxic fumes. Everyone wins... Profit!!!

    40. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, an anecdotal story with no links whatsoever to back it up, along with a confused rant against regulations. I doubt people will be driven out of business by being required to remember their alt tags. In any case, I'd rather see that "one "disabled" guy" and his lawyer disciplined than see regulations meant to protect people thrown out. You seem to be advocating tossing the baby out with the bathwater. Not me. I love babies.

    41. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The guy he was referring to is semi-famous in ADA articles and has been declared a vexatious litigant in California.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarek_Molski

    42. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On a per store basis, it is also 100 times more expensive for the one store business to implement than it is for the 100 store business.

    43. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      You don't happen to live in Sonoma, CA do you? I know, this is probably happining in thousands of communities across the country... sad.

    44. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Nope, not him. People don't realize how prevalent it is out there. There are lawyers that specialize in ADA compliance nuisance lawsuits. They share tips among themselves.

      The fact that they don't ever go to court is because a defending lawyer will say "It is cheaper to pay them off than go to trial". And they don't want the violations actually fixed, they're in it for the money and only the money.

      When a business is closed because of one of these, it harms everyone, especially the handicapped. And people get resentful for it, often at the expense of the majority of the handicapped that aren't bothered by the "violations".

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    45. Re:you know.. im all for.... by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      San Francisco?

      In Architecture studio, they made us go around campus in a wheelchair for a day. It takes about 10 minutes to realize that there are stupid barriers put up that people with full mobility don't see every day. A 36" wide library aisle was a great lesson, after all the gawdawful ramps people put it, and one of my favorites, the curb cuts on the sidewalk that point into the center of an intersection.

      While the population in wheelchairs might (clearly doesn't) justify many of these measures, some of them make the world a better place-- gentle ramps make it easier with strollers and rolling luggage, wider aisles make it easier to see books/merchandise, and I am a fan of having the toilet an extra couple inches off the ground, and a little bit of elbow room in the stall.

      Other things make less sense or transfer hazards. The truncated domes on crosswalks pose a hazard to women in heels; many places are forced to dedicate too much parking to "universal access" stalls; and our society has developed an unnatural addiction to elevators. Small establishments (under 2,000 square feet) have a number of hurdles to overcome.

      Not quite sure NYC's "with assistance" solution is the right way to go, but there is room in the middle.

    46. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Equality is something that is not broken down into mere money. So a market based solution will never address it.

      Are you seriously saying there is no economic value in corporations making their products available and accessable to everyone?

      If your corporation does not care about blind people then there is a market for those who do.

    47. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason the bars are closing is because the .00% alcohol driving level in cities like London.

    48. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'cause all the smokers are smoking in the doorways to said pubs now.

    49. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      The pubs round here seem to be doing fine. And the smoking ban is mainly for the benefit of workers, who are entitled to a safe working environment, where they aren't gong to get lung cancer from passive smoking.

    50. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The land of Oz happens to have a much warmer climate than the UK. It's easier to convince patrons to step outside for a smoke if the weather is good. Try to tell them to stand in the cold or in the rain to have a smoke and they'd rather stay at home.

      Most of the politicians in my country bring up Italy when it comes to smoking bans. "I've been to Rome and I've seen it work there!" Yeah, that's nice, but Rome isn't in the middle of the fucking Alps, so the situation might be a little different here.

    51. Re:you know.. im all for.... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I object to your comment completely..

      Nobody should be FORCED to do anything by the gov't, unless it's about actually protecting Freedoms and Liberties of people and providing a meaningful Justice system to resolve contract and criminal law questions.

      Everything else is mis-allocation of resources.

      With your logic, Google must transcribe every video because it's definitely a big company.

      But those people, who work there, they already HAVE job descriptions, and it's not transcribing videos. They have to do MEANINGFUL work that Google needs to do to survive as a business.

      Gov't can only raise prices and kill a business. It can kill many businesses to subsidize one business, sure. My point is that anything like this destroys resources, just like any other gov't forced action.

      This is make-shift work by gov't on the backs of businesses, what else can it possibly be? That's all it is under the guise of some moral principles. Well, if it takes MY money to pay for YOUR moral principles, it is IMMORAL AFAIC.

      It is also going to hurt my business, no matter how big or small. No matter. This is a terrible idea and should not be forced.

      If there is an actual market for the blind/deaf whatever for this, they must pay for it through some service, that will transcribe the stuff for them that they want. I certainly don't want mis-allocation of resources to occur in any gov't directed ways.

    52. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Tom · · Score: 1

      So? You sound as if there were a natural right to run a pub. Me, I tend to think that if your business rests on people ruining their own and/or other peoples health, then you are running an unethical business. And if such a business goes down then good riddance.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    53. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Clovert+Agent · · Score: 1

      Do you think it's fair to force non-smoking employees (including, potentially, external contractors like facility-hired security and cleaners) to breathe second-hand smoke? Or to discriminate against non-smokers by refusing to hire them?

    54. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're likely young and/or healthy. Barring nuclear disaster, there will never be enough handicapped people to make such a protest viable. And I doubt "handicap-ness" is sufficiently interesting to others to staff the boycott. Is it so difficult to cater to others? And isn't this attitude the same as saying that minorities/genders/biases can't enter?

    55. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ADA has no enforcement arm except disabled people taking it to the courts. While it certainly is enthusiastic to, as you say, "drive around and pick places to sue", I find it quite within the spirit of being an American to do so.

      And yes, suing non-compliant businesses does benefit other disabled people. The business in question getting themselves into gear means that the next cripple to come along doesn't have to worry about not being able to get up a ramp because it's too steep, or not being able to get on and off the toilet because the grab bars are poorly positioned or don't exist.

    56. Re:you know.. im all for.... by martas · · Score: 1

      I hail from a country that has nothing remotely similar to the ADA. About a week ago, I was admiring various aspects of civil engineering here in urban America - accessibility features, in particular. And I found myself thinking, "if I was wheelchair-bound, how different would life be here vs. in my home country?" It got so depressing that I had to force myself to think about something else. The point is, if you think the ADA serves no purpose other than allowing a few dishonest individuals to abuse the system for their personal benefit, then I'll make a bet with you - get yourself a wheelchair, fly to my native country, and try to live in the capital for, say, a month, without any assistance. I.e. do your own shopping, cooking, etc. If you survive the whole month, you can have all my internal organs.

    57. Re:you know.. im all for.... by nosferatu1001 · · Score: 1

      Except if EVERYONE allows smokers, there is no place for the nonsmokers to go.

      Which was the situation in the UK before the smoking ban. Not a single pub or club banned smoking prior to the ban, so where do you go if you dont want to smell like an ashtray?

      Sorry, if you want to give yourself cancer, smoke outside, let everyone else actually enjoy the place.

    58. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Ephemeriis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let the market decide

      The problem with letting the market decide is that the market does not decide responsibly.

      We have an FDA for a reason. Ever read The Jungle? You want to go back to eating floor sweepings in your sausage?

      The market is going to decide on what is cheapest and most profitable. If the market can get away with throwing together some tarpaper shack and calling it a storefront, it will. And then that shack falls on top of somebody because there were no building codes or safety regulations. And now somebody is hurt, and somebody else's store is a pile of wreckage, and people are unemployed and everything else. Or you could just avoid all that by implementing some building codes to make sure a structure is safe to use.

      Similarly, if there were no regulations at all, very few stores would bother to put in a ramp or anything like that. It's an added expense. A negligible one, but an expense none the less. And you'd soon find a situation where there were basically no stores available for the wheelchair-bound.

      In this day and age, if people are THAT upset about it, they can organize boycotts until store X either changes, or goes under.

      Are you kidding me? In this day and age nobody is going to actually boycott anything. They'd organize a Facebook group and start up a blog and maybe whine on a talk show or two... But nobody would actually stop buying anything. Certainly not in a volume high enough to be noticed.

      here is a perfect example in NY

      smoking indoors is banned.... NOW I believe the store should have a right to dictate whether or not they want to allow smoking in their PRIVATELY OWNED establishment

      the customer will either complain, and ask that smoking be not allowed and not go back until it is, or if enough people are bothered, he will see it on his balance sheet and ban smoking himself.

      The problem, again, is that a store is going to go with whatever is going to make them the most money - with no real concern for customer health or preferences.

      You know what? Smoking sections don't work. They might, I suppose, if you installed an airlock or something... But they don't. So you still get smoke even in your non-smoking section. And for my wife, who has a serious problem with cigarette smoke, that meant we could basically not dine out anywhere. And bars? Bars didn't even make an effort at containing smoke. It was flat-out impossible to go out for drinks anywhere. Hell, just walking by a bar was usually enough to give her coughing fits.

      Now that indoor smoking is banned in NY we can actually go out to eat. And we can go to bars. It's terrific.

      the government getting involved is always the answer to a question NO one asked.

      No it isn't. It's the answer to a question someone, somewhere asked. Maybe not a question you were asking... And maybe not the answer you wanted to see...

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    59. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      Requiring wheelchair ramps and website tags will not cause the local muffler shop to move to Bangladesh.

      But it could well be the extra regulatory cost that leaves said local muffler shop unable to compete with the national chain shop next door which outsources all non-customer-facing work to Bangladesh, thereby pushing the local shop out of business.

      This is why big business _LOVES_ this kind of regulation, they can easily afford to comply where small business can't. The funny part is that the kind of person who has the hots for this kind of regulation is usually also the kind of person who hates big business.

      And yet... The folks who always scream about letting the market decide are afraid to actually let the market decide.

      If the local muffler shop is doing so poorly that the cost of a wheelchair ramp and some website tags leaves them unable to compete with the national chain, then they should go out of business.

      It isn't like wheelchair ramps are forged from unobtainium in the fires of Mount Doom. It isn't like website tags have to be hand-picked from a tree that only grows on the Plateau of Leng.

      This stuff is cheap and easy. If you can't handle cheap and easy, you're doing something wrong.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    60. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Open your own non smoking bar, youll make a killing from all the non smokers.

    61. Re:you know.. im all for.... by amliebsch · · Score: 1

      Yes, because the free market ended "separate but equal." Oh, it didn't?

      Point of fact: Woolworth's desegregated its lunch counter long before it was required by law to.

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    62. Re:you know.. im all for.... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      The guy who gets a paycheck working for Ferrari won just as much as the guy getting a paycheck from Toyota.

    63. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Starting a business is hard. In a lot of cases a new business isn't even really expected to break even for 3 years.

      A lot of times there is barely enough money to buy the stuff that directly translates into profit, much less stuff that doesn't.

      Unfortunately you really do need a government to come in and say "ok, we know you're gonna take it in the shorts financially.. but you live in a civilized society and you have to suck it up and do what's right".

      And this is really what it comes down to. You arn't doing this to increase profit. You are doing this because the government is making you.

      Stuff like this should have reasonable exceptions. If you are under a certain size, maybe just require basic compliance, or "best effort" or something where you arn't gonna get your ass sued off because your alt text wasn't descriptive enough.

    64. Re:you know.. im all for.... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Yes, because the free market ended "separate but equal." Oh, it didn't? Then I guess you are arguing that segregation is better for the US than not.

      Depends what you mean. There's a difference between a private women's gym that doesn't allow men to join, and the government saying "men cannot join gyms."

      Separate but equal is perfectly fair when it comes as a result of end user choice. Look at so-called "historically black colleges." Should they be shut down because they are unbalanced?

    65. Re:you know.. im all for.... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Another issue is how much responsibility handicapped people have versus business owners. Wheelchairs are ancient technology. Surely the advent of motorized wheelchairs should make ramp slope requirements more lenient. One day when we have stair climbing wheelchairs available, but not at 100% penetration, should the ramp requirement be completely scrapped?

    66. Re:you know.. im all for.... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      You know what? Smoking sections don't work. They might, I suppose, if you installed an airlock or something... But they don't. So you still get smoke even in your non-smoking section. And for my wife, who has a serious problem with cigarette smoke, that meant we could basically not dine out anywhere.

      What about the guy who's been addicted to smoking since he was 6 and can't go more than 30 minutes without lighting up? Now HE basically can't eat out anywhere.

      Does it just come down to whichever group is bigger? More victim-looking? I don't see how it's fair for the government to impose a 100% ban, just like it wouldn't be fair to impose a 100% requirement FOR having smoking sections. Why can't there just be some restaurants that are non-smoking and others that allow it?

    67. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the local muffler shop is doing so poorly that the cost of a wheelchair ramp and some website tags

      If only that was the cost.

      Making something that is reasonably accessible: not that bad.

      Making something that complies with some (probably very bad) standard to the letter.. with the penalty being getting your ass sued off by a community of lawyers who actually specialize in nitpick suits: way more expensive.

      Personally I think if you are under a certain size, you should be required to do "best effort". That is, you have to demonstrate you made reasonable effort to make your site accessible, and as long as you don't have blatant violations, you won't have your ass handed to you in court.

    68. Re:you know.. im all for.... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      There is a natural right to run a pub. It's called liberty. WTF!?

    69. Re:you know.. im all for.... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      But mines ARE risky to work in. The sooner we have fully robotic mines, the better. What are you trying to argue, that we should bend over backwards to ensure that human-based mining can continue forever in the safest manner possible?

    70. Re:you know.. im all for.... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      How about if you have a bar and one of your employees has a religion injunction about being around alcohol? Do you suggest that the bar stop serving alcohol?

      It makes no sense. You say "substitute until you get it" but you can also substitute until it's totally absurd.

    71. Re:you know.. im all for.... by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      What part of the job description for "bar tender" involves second-hand cigarette smoke?

      "Ability to receive and follow instructions", "ability to work with customers", and "ability to handle alcohol" are requirements for the job. Smoke is not.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    72. Re:you know.. im all for.... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      If you're just writing a simple list of requirements like that then it's trivial to add "ability to handle second hand cigarette smoke." Does that change your outlook, if it's explicitly added as a job requirement?

    73. Re:you know.. im all for.... by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      The truncated domes on crosswalks pose a hazard to women in heels.

      Heels are a hazard in and of themselves. In fact, like many items of fashion, they are fashionable largely because they are impractical and mark the wearer as someone who has the wealth to afford not to be concerned about practicality.

    74. Re:you know.. im all for.... by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      But mines ARE risky to work in. The sooner we have fully robotic mines, the better.

      Well-enforced regulations that require safety features and practices in mines with human workers both keep the human mine workers safer as long as there are such workers and provide an incentive to develop mining methods that don't rely on humans being in the mines at all.

    75. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, in Illinois bar operators buy gas heaters and instead of buying a TEMPO buy 15 umbrellas ... problem solved.

    76. Re:you know.. im all for.... by noidentity · · Score: 1

      And yet despite my previous post being entirely sarcastic, this is the logic some people use to justify accessibility laws.

    77. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as having people in the mines is the only solution or the cheaper solution it is OK to not bother with the safety of the miners at all, because they knew what they were getting themselves into? What kind of BS is that?

      Of course we should make human mining as safe as possible while we are still doing it, because no ton of coal/uranium/whatever is worth more than human lives (not according to my ethics at least, of course they are to free market economists).

    78. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      That feels good to say, but do I have a RIGHT to demand that I make your life easy enough live without assistance. You have a RIGHT to not be forced into slave labor. How do you have a RIGHT to demand work from me? Yes, your wheelchair bound life would be much easier if I do things to accommodate you. No doubt about that. The question is if you have a RIGHT to demand that I do those things, because if you can force me to do those things on demand, then it is slave labor.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    79. Re:you know.. im all for.... by eth1 · · Score: 1

      You could probably design legislation like this to not impact small businesses at all. Just say that you either have a compliant web site OR an easily located phone number (via eyes or screen readers, or whatever) that immediately goes to a real person.

      Small businesses pretty much already operate that way, anyway, and if I was blind, I'd probably prefer it, since humans are a very good verbal DWIM interface. Obviously you'd have some things like ecommerce sites that are really only workable online, but I don't think most small businesses roll their own any more anyway.

    80. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Having attended a "historically black college", I would answer with a very enthusiastic YES!

      Most blantantly racist place I've ever been in my life.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    81. Re:you know.. im all for.... by martas · · Score: 1

      Interesting argument. I'm guessing that, by the same reasoning, you believe all forms of social security programs (in the generic sense of the term, be it welfare, medicare, etc.) are in essence equivalent to slave labor, since you are being taxed to, as you say, "make others' life easy." In other words, simply extending you argument, all government programs funded by taxation are equivalent to slave labor. Since all government is funded by taxation, this way of thinking leads to the conclusion that the only just government is no government - complete anarchy, in the most literal sense of the word.

      Do you agree with my conclusion, or do you see faults in my reasoning?

    82. Re:you know.. im all for.... by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      And I, along with every reasonable person, rejects your philosophy completely. We've tried it. It leads to the nation becoming a hellhole where the rich rule, and eventually freedom itself goes away as you devolve into feudalism. That's why we have government- to protect the weak from the strong.

      You want to go off to some deserted island somewhere and set up your Randian paradise? Feel free. But that is not, has never been, and while there is life in my body will never be the United States.

      Now on this particular issue, there's plenty of room to disagree on where the line should be drawn. There is no perfect answer, short of being able to restore sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf. But take that ultra-Libertarian bullshit and shove it.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    83. Re:you know.. im all for.... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      First of all you are wrong. USA had no gov't regulations throughout the 19 century, and it was that century that really improved quality of life for the world, created middle class in some countries where people were normally subsistence farmers, provided people with cheap abundant food, cheap abundant clothing, cheap abundant energy, indoor plumbing, safe food by refrigeration and canning and pasteurization, not due to any gov't regulation, it was the time that improved everybody's economic situation.

      By comparison the 20 century ended on a down note unfortunately, all due to gov't printing fiat money, destroying competition, mis-allocating resources, regulating, setting price controls, wage laws, subsidies, income taxes etc.etc.etc.

      --
      The great thing about 'my philosophy' is that it is the true market idea, it works and it will be saving the asses of societies once the gov't destroys the economies those societies are taking for granted.

      The great thing about my philosophy, is that it relies on the basic economic truth: if you start your insane action, you will get a reaction. You are going to force companies to do something like this, OK, you got it. You will get reduced choices. You will get increased prices. You will get more unemployment. You will see more jobs leave and eventually, when the gov't kills the currency after it is revealed that it's broke and bankrupt, the economy will start restructuring itself because people will start saving again, but the important thing is that all of this nonsense rules and regulations will go away, because there will be NO WAY TO PAY FOR IT AT ALL.

      Yes, I am welcoming the economic destruction that is going on, because it is the cleansing action that will take down your version of the world and will bring about the change needed to restart the economy again based on FREE enterprise, not government directed economy destroying centrally planned insanity that has shown itself to be so impotent and so good at destroying economies all throughout the history of this human world.

      --

      As to my personal affairs, I am not doing business in USA, I am doing business in Asia, it is a much more welcoming place to do business, much more free in terms of economic liberties than the USA is now, much closer to what USA was supposed to be and was before 1913.

    84. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Tom · · Score: 1

      There is a natural right to run a pub. It's called liberty. WTF!?

      Liberty isn't a natural right, it's a state of being. That state has limits. You don't have the liberty to kill people, obviously. You don't have the liberty to hurt people. So a business that requires health damage to other people is not covered by the liberty you are provided within a society.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    85. Re:you know.. im all for.... by nosferatu1001 · · Score: 1

      Except you get a larger pool by allowing everyone in, which is why nonsmoking bars didnt work.

      Or do you assume all bar owners were idiots for the last 40+ years of antismoking calls?

    86. Re:you know.. im all for.... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      The limits of liberty are usually when you personally are injuring other people. Having a bar does not hurt other people. Only people who drink too much or too regularly are hurt, and they are doing it to themselves. Your argument is so widespread that it would allow the government to regulate every aspect of your life, from forcing you to exercise to banning religions that require fasting to outlawing sex acts that may lead to infection.

    87. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Tom · · Score: 1

      The limits of liberty are usually when you personally are injuring other people. Having a bar does not hurt other people.

      There are lots more limits, but for this particular discussion - agreed.

      Only people who drink too much or too regularly are hurt, and they are doing it to themselves.

      Most alcohol-related deaths are not the people who are drinking, but the people who they are crashing into when driving drunk. Alcohol is one of those drugs where the damage to society is in general higher than the damage to the user.

      Your argument is so widespread that it would allow the government to regulate every aspect of your life,

      Not really. We've come some distance from the original argument. I personally am a proponent of drug-decriminalisation. I'm pretty much of the opinion that whatever you want to do to your body and mind is your business - as long as you and not I bear the consequences. As soon as you expect me to pay or share the consequences, e.g. by footing your medical bills through our common insurance, I want a say in the matter, because it's my money you're spending.

      And regarding the pubs, I don't mind people drinking. I don't even mind them smoking, as long as they do it away from me. But if your business can not survive unless it is a requirement that people damage both their own and others health in the process of you exercising it, then I don't think you have a "right" to run that business. That is not the same as saying your business should be illegal and should be regulated, please don't mistake that. It is not illegal to have a girlfriend, but you don't have a right to a girlfriend, either.

      So, I don't mind at all if outlawing smoking means pubs go out of business. You don't have a right to run a pub. You have the right to try, but you don't have a right that it works, and you don't have a right that society builds its laws around your business.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    88. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In general: You not exercising does not hurt me. You exercising your religion does not hurt me. You having sex does not hurt me (every time you have sex there is a risk of infection ...).

      However, there are limits to this too. If you don't exercise and that creates health problems, I am ok with your insurance premiums being higher (this does not need to be government regulated, I know some insurers actually give you bonuses if you are keeping yourself in good health).

      And yes I think the government is allowed to force you to not hurt other people by subjecting them to second hand smoke. Would a more liberal solution be better for both parties? Sure! But guess what, the free market did not provide any incentives towards such a solution. How many bars or restaurants have you seen, that were doing something for non-smokers? Example from Germany before they banned smoking: Restaurants were required to have a non-smoking area. It was usually very small and the only barrier between the big smoking part and the non-smoking part of the restaurant was: nothing, just thin air!

    89. Re:you know.. im all for.... by sjames · · Score: 1

      The biggest single step would to make ADA compliance a "fixit" sort of thing. That is, the remedy to non-compliance is an order to bring things in compliance within a reasonable amount of time, not a big fat award to a plaintiff who may not have even shown an actual problem caused by the non-compliance.

      It wouldn't hurt for there to be a grants and loans program for small business to help bring things in to compliance. Punitive actions should be the very last resort. No small business should ever be forced to shut down because they can't afford to comply. There is also a need to recognize that retrofits are not always possible.

    90. Re:you know.. im all for.... by sjames · · Score: 1

      The problem is, such regulations tend to be one size fits all. Around here, non-smoking areas became mandated in bars and restaurants. The result has been mixed at best. It's not too uncommon to see places packed with customers except for a completely empty non-smoking area. Clearly none of their customers asked the question.

    91. Re:you know.. im all for.... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Most alcohol-related deaths are not the people who are drinking, but the people who they are crashing into when driving drunk. Alcohol is one of those drugs where the damage to society is in general higher than the damage to the user.

      Fair enough, I was looking at health effects based on activities inside the bar (smoking, drinking, etc), not their wider ramifications. When you start saying "x affects y affects z, z is bad, so let's BAN x" then you are basically living in a nanny state.

      That is not the same as saying your business should be illegal and should be regulated, please don't mistake that. It is not illegal to have a girlfriend, but you don't have a right to a girlfriend, either.

      Okay I definitely misunderstood what you meant. I guess you're seeing what I said as an entitlement to run a pub, guaranteed by the government, which I'm not saying. I'm talking about the right to do it at all.

      And here's the thing. Indirect regulation is just as harmful as direct regulation. It's like if you don't make possession of alcohol illegal, but the transportation, production, consumption, and distribution of alcohol are illegal, then say "but we didn't actually ban alcohol!!" It's the same thing. If it turns out that smoking is an activity that is so prevalent in the business of running a pub that banning smoking results in most pubs losing money and shutting down, then banning smoking in pubs is the same thing as outright banning pubs.

      and you don't have a right that society builds its laws around your business

      Okay true but I am part of society so it's perfectly fair to want laws that allow me to exist happily and peacefully. I think when people bring up things like pubs going out of business due to the smoking ban, it's to alert society that there have been potentially unintended consequences to the law and maybe we should take another look. Personally I think smoking bans are absolutely retarded, but if I did support them and I was under the impression that a huge part of society is avoiding going out because of second hand smoke, then suddenly these restaurants and bars start going out of business, I would reconsider.

    92. Re:you know.. im all for.... by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      doesn't this say that you should help those you see in need of help and not that you should shuck it off to society to do the same?

      anyways, this doesn't say to be your brothers keeper. It says to help someone when they are down.

    93. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Fair enough, I was looking at health effects based on activities inside the bar (smoking, drinking, etc), not their wider ramifications. When you start saying "x affects y affects z, z is bad, so let's BAN x" then you are basically living in a nanny state.

      The problem is that nobody intends to drive drunk. By the time they make that decision, they are already impaired. You may call it a nanny state. I say that a nanny is quite the appropriate thing for people who aren't able to handle themselves. I'm all for treating adults like adults, but someone heavily intoxicated is much closer to a young kid in mental capacity. The problem is that he still has the body and the car keys of an adult. How do you propose to solve that dilemma?

      And here's the thing. Indirect regulation is just as harmful as direct regulation. It's like if you don't make possession of alcohol illegal, but the transportation, production, consumption, and distribution of alcohol are illegal, then say "but we didn't actually ban alcohol!!" It's the same thing. If it turns out that smoking is an activity that is so prevalent in the business of running a pub that banning smoking results in most pubs losing money and shutting down, then banning smoking in pubs is the same thing as outright banning pubs.

      The two examples seem similiar, but aren't. In the first, the ban of alcohol is the goal, and indirect means are chosen. In the second, the ban of pubs is an unintended consequence. And that is where my argument comes in. A closer example would be that I say I don't feel sorry for your undertaker business going bancrupt because recent policy changes have reduced the murder rate and now there's not enough death anymore. And I'm saying you complaining that the government drove you out of business is a misrepresentation of facts and intents.

      For the pubs, I don't follow the argument at all. If you were talking about smoking clubs, that would be a different matter. If smoking is so vital to pubs that they can't survive without it - well, maybe they need to do what we here on /. ask of the music and movie industry all the time - adapt their business model to changing circumstances.

      but if I did support them and I was under the impression that a huge part of society is avoiding going out because of second hand smoke, then suddenly these restaurants and bars start going out of business, I would reconsider.

      We all know that's not true. I used to go out once or twice every week despite the air being full of smoke. For one, it has only been recently that all this has been brought into focus. But the more important reason is that you used to have no choice. It was putting up with the smoke or not going out. So the part of society that opted for not going out was pretty small, because especially at the age targeted by clubs and pubs, not going out is not a socially acceptable option.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    94. Re:you know.. im all for.... by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      That would be the logical conclusion of the argument. The modifier is that it is not possible to have a society without SOME form of government. If a duly elected representative government pulled back completely and decided not to provide police services, then gang leaders would arise and impose their own controls (it has occurred in every instance where there has ever been a power vacuum).

      The point is to acknowledge the fact that requiring someone to build a ramp is in fact conscripted labor. It is not being built by pink fluffy bunnies. Admit that we are trading one ugliness for another, and then find some way to codify when and how we demand work from one set of people to benefit another set.

      What I see now is people saying, "srand($X) is bad. Let's make srand($Y) pay to fix it. Except, I don't like how much it is hurting srand($Z), so let's make an exception for them." To me, that is just an ugly way to write an algorithm or run a society.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  7. It's about time by bmo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There are too many flashy (pun intended) websites without any secondary way of seeing them. A proper public website should be navigable with a screen reader. As "Web 2.0" has marched on, it has only gotten worse. Some are even so user hostile that even those wanting a bit of privacy without Flash or javascript enabled are simply locked out.

    Exceptions should be made for personal pages, but for organizations, governments, and commerce sites that deal with the public, there shouldn't be any excuse.

    --
    BMO

  8. Good. by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

    The article talks about this extending into other realms like movies.

    "About 1 percent of U.S. theater screens already have that type of equipment. But expanding the technology to others could cost nearly $160 million."

    Thats the cost of one medium quality action film these days. Hollywood studios should be forced to pay for it.

    1. Re:Good. by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      Capital to invest and capital to throw into the trash for regulatory compliance are not the same thing.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
  9. 'Bout time? by jc42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've worked on a number of projects where we were explicitly ordered not to "waste our time" with anything that would help the disabled to use our web sites. There wasn't much we could do other than sneak in things that we thought the management wouldn't notice.

    Maybe it's time that people with more clout than us mere developers let the managers know that something a bit more, uh, civilised is expected of them.

    We can't do it on our own, even if we want to.

    (Actually, I'm currently doing some pro bono work for some nonprofits that involves making their web sites more accessible. A curious part of this is that they've mostly been persuaded by the growing number of people carrying a "smart phone", and it's getting through their heads that web pages forced to width=1200 or requiring javascript are limiting their audience. While we're at it, maybe we can sneak in even more stuff that helps the visually impaired, etc.)

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    1. Re:'Bout time? by SirGarlon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A curious part of this is that they've mostly been persuaded by the growing number of people carrying a "smart phone", and it's getting through their heads that web pages forced to width=1200 or requiring javascript are limiting their audience

      Amen, brother! I keep scratching my head over why certain Web sites are willing to shell out the cash to make a whole parallel "mobile" version, when what they really need is just a couple of different style sheets and some good engineering. That whole idea of separating content from layout, that seemed so quaint and idealistic back in 1995, actually makes sense in today's marketplace.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    2. Re:'Bout time? by jc42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, well, I also keep pointing out to people that the original design of HTML was intended to make it easy to build documents that would be readable on a very wide range of screen sizes and shapes. This was done by "marking up" the document with hints to the rendering software about the structure of the document, so that the software could format it sensibly on whatever screen you had, or even with no screen for the visually impaired or for people (e.g., drivers and airplane pilots) whose eyes are busy elsewhere.

      But the "designers" sorta took over, and worked from the attitude that they were producing a work of art that should only be produced in exactly the same format that they designed. They specified the exact size, shape, and screen position for everything, and did their best to make sure that it wouldn't work well any other way.

      With luck (and a bit of encouragement), maybe we can develop a new breed of designer whose aesthetic is based on clarity and comprehensibility for all, not just those with the best eyes and the biggest screens. And maybe we can get the browser makers to add a switch that disables all size= and width= attributes, to help defeat the designers' efforts.

      Actually, people are always complaining about the way my screens are covered with lots of small windows, each using the smallest fonts that I can read. This window currently uses a 10-point font, which most people looking over my shoulder can't read because they're farther away than I am and/or don't have eyes as good as mine. But that doesn't matter. I have some visually-impaired friends. And sometimes my only Net access is via my G1 phone or my wife's iPhone. So I'm learning to design for them. Now if I could just figure out how to persuade people to pay me to work on such "design". I think it'd make the world a better place. But I've found that most professional designers, as well as most professional managers, don't agree with me.

      (And my Mac's silly 2-finger resizing just spontaneously shrunk my font to maybe 8 points. But I can still read it. And it should be readable on your screen, regardless of its size. ;-)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    3. Re:'Bout time? by jonwil · · Score: 1

      I suspect they want to make a seperate "mobile" version so they can keep loading down the main version with usless Flash video and whatever other junk the marketing department can come up with and yet still provide something that works on a mobile phone.

    4. Re:'Bout time? by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      With luck (and a bit of encouragement), maybe we can develop a new breed of designer whose aesthetic is based on clarity and comprehensibility for all, not just those with the best eyes and the biggest screens.

      Oh god, please. I hate when sites look good at one and only one resolution (whether 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, or any of the newer ones, though most coding to a specific size don't go above 1024x768). They are too narrow sometimes, and too wide others. Frames, tables, and everything else that make it impossible to view reasonably in any size other than they designate.

    5. Re:'Bout time? by Kozz · · Score: 1

      JC: I respect what you're saying, and certainly it's admirable to make websites accessible not only for different people, but also from different devices. At the same time (please, forgive me, here), your homepage is straight out of 1998. Of course your goals and audience are far different from those of a large commercial enterprise (choose any gigantic dot-com).

      But when I'm asked to make changes for one site or another, what's frequently desired is dynamic behavior; using javascript frameworks to make not only simple things like tree-menus, but also elements which are interactive, animated, and so on. Are you aware of ways to meet both goals, to provide dynamic behavior AND have a site be accessible? Do you know of any javascript frameworks which would allow this? It seems that wiping out our recent years of progress with javascript would be just that -- rolling back the years. And few clients want that.

      --
      I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
    6. Re:'Bout time? by LSDelirious · · Score: 1

      I've found the way around this is to explain to the boss that the googlebot crawls your site like a screen reader would, so taking the time to add image alts, link titles, table summaries, etc... is a legitimate way to sneak in keywords and make your content see more relevant. I've already taken accessibility courses and incorporate most of the techniques into my pages, so I kinda hope they will pass it because then I can charge more money - and who knows, maybe they will outlaw table based layouts = D

      --
      Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property; A Corporation is the legal fiction that property is a person.
    7. Re:'Bout time? by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      So you are wasting the money of your employer against their specific directions?

      Good thing you are not working for me.

    8. Re:'Bout time? by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Yes. But, as I said, I've often been explicitly ordered by the people who hired me to produce web pages that only work at one specific width. It doesn't take a lot of research to figure out that this is fairly common.

      In some cases, I was able to go back later during the work and remove all the width= and size= attributes from the HTML, and they never noticed. But I've also seen management set up test procedures that explicitly tested for pages that worked in windows that were the "wrong size", and reported this as a failure.

      Most of the sites that work this way were built with malice aforethought. The designers (or their bosses) were intentionally excluding viewers with small screens, or with big screens set in a "visually impaired" configuration.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    9. Re:'Bout time? by matfud · · Score: 1

      CSS can not make a web site into a mobile website that is useable. Mostly because companies want different content on thier mobile site. The content of the main site can be to large for the device to handle. The CSS to handle mobile can be to large for the device to handle. Even if the device can load it you can end up with pages that scroll forever due to the small screen size. Tables don't work well. Images need to be converted.

      Its often just easier to have a simplified site targeted at mobiles that uses one of the technologies that provide information about the device they are providing content to and functionality to help you.

      matfud

    10. Re:'Bout time? by jc42 · · Score: 1

      So you are wasting the money of your employer against their specific directions? Good thing you are not working for me.

      Well, maybe, maybe not. If your overly-strict page formats are interfering with readability on small screens, you could well be losing customers who get frustrated with your awful (from their viewpoint) web site. In that case, you might profit by hiring me to make your site more user-friendly. ;-)

      I guess it depends on what you want. In several cases, the expected "design" was so bad that other people in the same company were complaining, and asking if we could improve it. I usually replied by 1) agreeing with them, 2) showing them the specs I had that required such bad design, and 3) asking them how I might go about sneaking in improvements without being fired.

      Of course, I usually had some ideas already, but it never hurts to get buy-in from the other players.

      Part of the problem is that people without much hands-on web experience (which typically includes much of top management) aren't usually aware of the problems until much later, after it has all gone live. Then they get all upset, and start threatening to fire the people who produced something with so many problems. It usually doesn't help to say "We were just following orders"; that doesn't usually endear you to the people who ordered that it be done wrong.

      You may not be aware of it, but there's a good chance that many of your employees have done things to help your (potential) customers, without your permission. Before threatening to fire them, you might consider whether you have profited from their subversion.

      After all, if you hire someone with expertise in some process, you shouldn't be surprised if they have a different understanding of the problems than you do. That's what you hire them for, right? If not, maybe you should be hiring novices without the expertise.

      After all, HTML is easy, and anyone can build a web page. You don't need experts to do such an easy job. ;-)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    11. Re:'Bout time? by jc42 · · Score: 1

      At the same time (please, forgive me, here), your homepage is straight out of 1998.

      Yeah, that's about right. ;-) I do occasionally think of doing a total redesign, but frankly, not many people look at it other than me, and I like something that's just a bunch of cryptically labelled links that I can quickly find and click. There's nothing at all commercial about that page, and never will be.

      Are you aware of ways to meet both goals, to provide dynamic behavior AND have a site be accessible? Do you know of any javascript frameworks which would allow this? It seems that wiping out our recent years of progress with javascript would be just that -- rolling back the years. And few clients want that.

      There are growing problems with JS, since the big sales now are in small, mobile devices, and those that have JS usually have a stripped-down version that often does a really crappy job of complex web sites. I can spot them easily on my G1 phone or my wife's iPhone.

      I suspect that, if you want dynamic behavior and complex content, you should be seriously looking at HTML5. It could supplant most of your use of JS. Of course, HTML5 isn't quite stable yet, but it's good enough that you can use it for a lot of stuff. (As long as you work seriously on fallbacks for IE5.)

      I might also note that, like most people familiar with JS, I usually do most browsing with NoScript enabled. I have a couple of demos on my site of some of the nasty things that can be done to you with JS. I don't want those things done to me, so I block JS almost everywhere, and turn it on if I judge a site trustworthy. (And yes, I've been fooled a few times.) Of course, the general public hasn't heard of such things, so they continue to leave JS enabled. But they're buying lots of smartphones and carrying them in their pockets or purses. And the smartphone these days are web-enabled computers. If your business isn't testing with them now, you're losing customers.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    12. Re:'Bout time? by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      As I said, you had specific directions not to do this, you still went ahead and did it. I don't care about you being correct or not, you were hired for a specific job and you are not doing it.

  10. OK by mrsteveman1 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    How is this not a first amendment violation? If person X, or lets say even company Y doesn't want to make their articles/website/cartoons/jokes available in specific format, what right does the government have to come in and do anything about it?

    And why is this any sort of priority for the justice department? I have news for the feds, your airplane terrorist watchdogs are molesting children right now, find something more important to work on. Mkay?

    1. Re:OK by TheReaperD · · Score: 2, Informative

      First off, you mixed apples and oranges. If person X wants to make a website that has a limited audience and exclude blind people, smart phones, etc. they may do so to a point. It sounds like this proposal takes that into account. However, if company Y wants to do the same thing, they can't. Companies do not get all the same rights as people. (And, in my opinion, this is a very good thing.) They have to abide by additional non-discrimination laws that include that they are not allowed to discriminate against the blind. For a long time, it has never been defined what that means on the web. This is just simply to establish one set of guidelines as to what that means rather than leaving it to a mis-mash of different court cases and give a time frame for companies to meet these guidelines.

      --
      "Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -
    2. Re:OK by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My employer is publicly traded. I'm unaware of any rule/law/etc that requires us to produce braille product literature.

      Explain to me HOW a website with the same information is ANY different.

    3. Re:OK by icebraining · · Score: 1

      It's not - there doesn't exist any rule/law/etc that requires websites to produce blind accessible information.

    4. Re:OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That all sounds well and good until you consider small businesses. Small business may not have the funds necessary to reach out and communicate with the disabled. Small businesses that trade in building websites for hire may not have the funds to spend on accessibility -- even if they have the expertise. When legally mandating accesibility you're imposing a burden on these businesses akin to requiring that they perform the customer-facing side of their business in the language of the customer's choice. That's immensely impractical for many small businesses. Especially those that tend to serve a limited geography (in the case of spoken/written languages). It imposes an outrageous burden on them which would not be levied on many of their foreign competitors. Worse, the very technologies that rob the web of its accessibility are those that are considered de rigeur for "professional" sites. Much like proper grammar is perceived as more professional it's driven by a very non-technological social system. So any small business wanting to be taken seriously needs to use these technologies -- the very ones that put up barriers to accessibility -- in order to be perceived as a competitor.

      In theory forcing all websites to be universally accessible would be a wonderful thing. As a matter of practice there are much more serious issues with that idea than its simplicity suggests. Internationalization of products can be quite costly. Accessibility is likely just as costly if not more so.

      What's really needed is not a law mandating accessibility outright but some social/monetary structure which supports and/or rewards accessible websites. It could be as 'simple' as small government subsidies or tax credits for company websites that adopt and continue to use accessibile technologies. Then business will gravitate towards technologies that don't require constant human-driven translation for each bit of new/recycled content.

      There are far better reasons why corporations don't always have the same rights as real people. Using that distinction alone to make blanket assumptions about who can afford to implement the progressive legally-mandated policy du jour is a terrible mistake.

    5. Re:OK by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      I'm not certain whether product information qualifies as protected speech.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    6. Re:OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a commerce issue related to non-discrimination, this has nothing to do with protected free speech.

      You're not allowed to post signs on your bar saying "No Irish Allowed", and you're not allowed to discriminate against someone who can't see or hear.

      The article mentioned this benefitting up to 40 million Americans. That's actually a pretty decent bump in potential customer base.

    7. Re:OK by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      The article mentioned this benefitting up to 40 million Americans. That's actually a pretty decent bump in potential customer base.

      In which case, only a stupid company would put up a web site they can't buy from, and therefore it's not a problem, and there's no need for government to be interfering.

      Right?

    8. Re:OK by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Actually, your wrong. Person X could be the company Y in it's entirety. What stops them now as the company and the person is one in the same? In fact, the vast majority of companies out there have less then ten employees and less then 1/10 of them are even traded publicly.

      I can see some severe constitutional issues here that go well beyond the concept of companies getting the same rights as people. This is because companies are little more then conglomerations of people acting in the same venture. They have every right as the person in most situations.

    9. Re:OK by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      This isn't about protected speech so much as forced speech, which must meet rather higher standards. It isn't even like labeling requirements, where they at least have the (bad) excuse that the label is a required part of a sale contract.

      The ADA should apply only to public—i.e. government—facilities and services. Everything else is private, and if a private owner wishes to exclude any particular individual or group, based on any criteria, that is absolutely their right. To compel someone else to provide a service on your terms, involuntarily, is the very definition of slavery.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    10. Re:OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not allowed to post signs on your bar saying "No Irish Allowed"

      Why the fuck would you put a sign that says that up?

      It should read "No dogs or Irish allowed".

    11. Re:OK by tallin32 · · Score: 1

      My employer is publicly traded. I'm unaware of any rule/law/etc that requires us to produce braille product literature.

      Explain to me HOW a website with the same information is ANY different.

      Because of the cost of production. Commercial Braille production is expensive, expensive machinery. Further, apparently something like 10% of totally blind people (or some depressing number like that) read Braille.

    12. Re:OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There isn't a law against discrimination?

    13. Re:OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you had a customer who was blind who you were interacting with in person, the ADA would require you to provide them with the documents they need in a format accessible to them if they requested it. While on a one-customer scale this might mean reading them the documents, when we're talking larger businesses, it saves time/money to just set up a process to make large print or braille copies of documents.

      Likewise, if you had an employee who is blind, you'd also be required to make the workplace accessible to them, by installing a screenreader on their computer, plopping a video magnifier on their desk, or whatever it would take to make them able to do their job.

    14. Re:OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm, good point, it isn't any different.

      Thanks for the suggestion; I'll start a campaign to require your employer to produce braille product literature tomorrow.

    15. Re:OK by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but by splitting the market you'll get specialty sites that cater to the smaller, ignored demographics and provide them with a better, more targeted experience. Everybody wins.

  11. Important, but not new to /. by beetle496 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We already talked about this. The Chicago session mentioned in the summary already happened. I tried to tell you about it.

    --
    I paid the going retail price for a Windows screen reader and got a free Unix computer!
    1. Re:Important, but not new to /. by beetle496 · · Score: 1

      Here is the DOJ page about the hearings and the official notice in the Federal Register.

      --
      I paid the going retail price for a Windows screen reader and got a free Unix computer!
  12. very small businesses? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a web shop, I just use an open source ecommerce solution (prestashop, tried zencart too, didn't like it as much). I have no idea what accessibility requirements they are talking about. I have no way of following them. The article says websites must be programmed to read themselves aloud, I'm assuming that's a stupid journalist. I don't think that's a standard HTML feature. In any event, give me simple guidelines to follow and a deadline and I'll do it, but otherwise we are just going to see every small business sued for their website not being compliant to standards that aren't even set. As it is there are more than enough frivolous lawsuits justified by the ADA against mom and pop brick and mortar businesses.

  13. Flash-only sites by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    something like that could force sites to finally make an alternative, html only version, at least for the sites where that have some meaning.

    1. Re:Flash-only sites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hate to burst your bubble, but Flash and Flex already support screen readers. Most people don't use the features, but they are there and fairly easy to put in.

  14. Maybe fund some hungry developers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not have the government fund some developers to work with w3c et.al. to make it dead easy for devs to integrate this stuff well into their sites? Seems a better solution to me than forcing it on corporations and bigger public sites.

  15. NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by PortHaven · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    "Website operators should be asking themselves what they could be losing in market share because they are "unwittingly putting up barriers," Brewer said."

    NOT A HELLUVALOT....

    I am sorry, it's not our fault that you are blind or deaf. We do the best to accomodate. But it's starting to get ridiculous. I am finding myself growing more and more anti-handicap.

    OMG....am I evil?

    Maybe I should be. But when a start-up business can't get off the ground because they need to build a giant handicap bathroom that will take a huge chunk out of their available space. When the blind associations trash the Kindle as a textbook because the menus aren't translated. (Never mind the fact that the Kindle will read the contents of the textbook, something a paperbook cannot do.)

    The cost for most businesses to make their sites ADA compliant will never be recouped.For thousands of years blind people have been unable to read books. And deaf people unable to listen to music.

    We've done a lot as a society to aid those who are handicap. But it gets to a point when you keep demanding more, that we're eventually going to toss you into the road.

    --

    Most business' have a phone number. Seems to me that this should be adequate on many levels. If you're blind, maybe you should talk to a sales staff at Target.com rather than try to browse.

    I have a number of websites. Most a small websites with very limited use. To demand that I make them ALL ADA compliant is ludicrous.

    I mean, do I want the darkness of my movie broken up by a deaf person sitting in front of me with a screen display sub-titles. Heck no....I hate it when someone whips out a cell phone, which in such darkness is nearly blinding.

    ---

    "If you were to take these things away from the general population - things like watching a movie, surfing the internet, making a 911 call - there would be an outcry," Bristo said. "All we are asking for is what other people take for granted."

    But we're not. And you're not the general populace. And to expect to be able to everything that the general populace can do is just silly. And to demand the general populace enable you to do so, is wrong.

    I am all for reasonably assisting the disabled. But there is a point at which I will cease to care. Is it that I am just mean or cruel, or unsympathetic? No...

    I am just one who thinks people need to accept their limitations. And not expect everyone around them to bend over backwards to them. Ask for help. And I'll help. Demand it from me, and I'll ignore you.

    1. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen Brother.

      All I can envision at this point is creating a separate website holding parts of each page so the text can be enlarged to 120 pixels. Yikes!

    2. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Ask for help. And I'll help. Demand it from me, and I'll ignore you.

      ...and you'll be fined. No problems there.

    3. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by 0123456 · · Score: 2, Funny

      You don't have to like it, but getting along with civilization is generally a good thing, especially when you don't have to worry about boycotts.

      So people who are unable to use his site are going to punish him by refusing to buy from him?

      Sounds like a plan.

    4. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by monkyyy · · Score: 1

      only +1 flame bait..... -__-

      --
      warning pointless sig
    5. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by PRMan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have food allergies. I expect an honest answer if I ask you a question about ingredients. If you don't know, tell me you don't know and I will go somewhere else.

      I do NOT expect everybody on earth to remove all traces of soy from everything so that I don't get sick. That's ridiculous.

      You want to know what's also ridiculous? I have seen parking spaces at busy malls that go unused for YEARS because they are handicapped spaces. Why are there so many spaces when there are so few handicapped people? I appreciate the spaces for people like my friend who was handicapped for many years, but even he agreed that the sheer number of spaces was way too high.

      I like America's sense of caring for certain unfortunate groups, but the balance is too far the other way these days.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    6. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Karma would be Gawd striking you temporarily blind, but since He doesn't exist (or has abandoned us for 2000 years) it's up to us to piss you off and make you accept everyone on even terms when dealing in commerce.

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but accepting everyone on even terms would mean that they conform to his practices not that he is forced to conform to theirs, wouldn't it?

      I mean people are out there, they are different, some are better then others, some are not, but even terms means he draws a line and they meet it or exceed it.

    7. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      making your site /STANDARDS/ Compliant and designed in a reasonable way will make it work well on a smartphone as well as work with screen readers and high contrast setups

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    8. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by jonwil · · Score: 1

      The answer for deaf people and movie theaters is simple, just do what the theaters around here do and run "open caption" sessions which are basically regular screenings that also have subtitles up on the main screen.
      Does not require expensive equipment in the theater and still allows deaf people to enjoy a film on the big screen.

    9. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      We do the best to accomodate.

      I hereby assert you are 100% wrong. Most sites do *nothing* to accommodate. If you can't see their flash, they don't care. If you can see only in 320x200 on a 24" screen, they don't care. They code their site to work on 800x600 or better and nothing else, and they don't care. People are doing nothing to accommodate, and aren't even thinking about it. "We" don't do much of anything to accommodate.

      I mean, do I want the darkness of my movie broken up by a deaf person sitting in front of me with a screen display sub-titles.

      Never mind. You are just a fucking moron. I've been to movies with a person signing along with the movie. It wasn't that bad. Most people just forget she is there. But that's irrelevant to the web. Tag it. Someone wants it, they ask. Someone doesn't, they don't ask. It's not like a movie where everyone in that theater at that time gets the same experience. You can serve up the same content an infinite number of ways you don't even care about. Just give the content, give some alternate content if the client requests (or serve the whole thing and let the client pick what to display, though that's not as bandwidth friendly, it's easier), and the "normal" people won't ever know. That's 100% unlike your theater example. No hearing person is inconvenienced in any way by optimized content being available. Not to mention that you value your minor convenience above a deaf person's ability to experience it at all, which seems quite egotistical.

    10. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by germansausage · · Score: 1

      I just parsed your sentence as "a person _singing_ along with the movie. It wasn't that bad." and thinking you are far more tolerant than I would be. Sudafed, Scotch and Self-Pity, good for colds, not so good for reading comprehension.

    11. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      growing more and more anti-handicap

      It's not politically correct to say it out loud but that's what you get with things like ADA. It may have had a well meaning intention but in the end it gets abused by trolls that sue small businesses into oblivion. Can anyone really blame these businesses if they grow weary of such regulations?

      There's a saying around here that goes: well-meant is the opposite of well-done.

      Instead of just slamming a book with regulations that are practically impossible to comply with (too strict, too vague or require a whole legal department to understand) in the face of small businesses, there should be active support from the government. For example give them free consultants or courses that tell them how to make their business compliant; and if they take this help, they'll be legally protected from frivolous ADA-lawsuits. That way the government gets their precious regulations and businesses get a reliable, safer way to comply. Otherwise ADA is just a Damocles sword waiting to happen and people will hate it.

    12. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

      Are you going to pay him for his time and effort to do all that you propose?

    13. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Do you pay him for the time and effort to conform to IRS regulations?

    14. Re: NOT A HELLUVALOT.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      ...but even he agreed that the sheer number of spaces was way too high.

      I work on a campus where staff are charged and exorbitant amount of money to get a staff parking permit, and the number of staff spaces continuously goes down while the number of staff goes up. The usage rate of the staff parking spaces anywhere close to where I actually work is within one or two spaces of 100% from 9AM through 4PM every workday.

      In one lot, there was a single handicapped space. It was unused almost 100% of the time. The only time I saw it used was once or twice during lunch, when an apparently ambulatory person parked there to go to the shop across the street.

      Our highly intelligent parking services group decided we needed more handicapped parking right next to that space, so they took away 8 staff spaces to make four more handicapped spaces. Then they decided that the existing handicapped space wasn't being used, so they converted it back into two normal spaces.

      The two new normal spaces are used 100% of the time. The four new handicapped spaces are used 0% -- again, once during lunch.

      Another nearby lot had two unused handicapped spaces. Now it has four more, at a loss of six normal staff spaces.

      This is at a campus where you need to have a paid parking permit to park in the handicapped spaces anyway, so our parking service people know how many handicapped users there are. And where parking services is happy to make a specially reserved space for anyone with a handicap upon a moment's notice.

      So yes, too high is an amazing understatement.

  16. Re:THEY AREN"T CALLED HANDICAPPED FOR NOTHING !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You will probably get flamed for this and you didn't phrase it PC but you are correct, heck I can see out of only one eye (ok technically both but one is legally blind) and if I lose that one eye, I could no longer drive etc, guess what that sucks but that is life, and no you can't do anything, paralyzed people can't walk, the blind can't read, the deaf can't hear, and humans can't fly under their own power, sorry life isn't perfect and mandating these things is just punishing everyone including the disabled (just check out horror stories of the ADA).

    Also interesting video (on Hulu Fox Business network (NOT FOX NEWS)
    http://www.hulu.com/watch/185288/stossel-thu-sep-2-2010#s-p2-so-i0
    enjoy! :-)

    LOL Captcha is revoke :-)

  17. Let the Market Decide by ewhenn · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I'm all for making sure handicapped people have access to necessary services... however *requiring* movie theaters to provide closed captioning devices at every seat is ridiculous. Watching a movie is is not a life necessity. If the demand is there, and the people that need it are willing to pay a price that makes business sense, then the theaters will have Closed captioning equipment. If it doesn't make business sense, then they won't.

    What the fuck is with the government wanting to tell *PRIVATE* business who they have to make non-mandatory (ie. entertainment) products available to?

    ADA is mostly bullshit anyways. Hey, let's also make sure we have a wheel chair ramp for bungee jumping, because you never know when some cripple with deteriorating bones might want to plunge down a hundred feet with only their legs attached to a giant rubber band. Why not require the same Closed captioning devices for normal theater (plays) as well? How about all sporting events too? Gotta have CC devices at the seats so you can hear the refs calls. Maybe we need to throw some braille street signs in there too, wouldn't want the blind to be discriminated against when driving a car, you know?

    The bottom line is, if there is money to be made, some company *will* do it voluntarily. If the market can't support it, oh well, tough break, it doesn't happen.

    1. Re:Let the Market Decide by rudedog · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you knew anything about how the technology works, you would know that closed captioning at theaters is a matter of installing a LED projector at the back of the theater and providing the viewers with a plexiglass reflector that they stick into their cup holder. It is not a question of retrofitting every seat. The tech is dirt cheap.

      And even as cheap as it is, in the greater metro Seattle area, there are only 4 theaters that have it. And not 4 theater complexes. Literally 4 theaters. For example, the 11-screen complex in Pacific Place has a single theater equipped with it. And most the time, the complex choses not to present movies with captions in that particular theater, and pretty much never does so on weekends. If the theaters equipped more movies with the captioning devices, I would go to the movies more often. But the fact is that the market power of deaf and hard of hearing people isn't big enough to warrant it.

      Mandating companies to take reasonable measures to accommodate the needs of disabled patrons when the market can't is part of belonging to a civilized society.

    2. Re:Let the Market Decide by monkyyy · · Score: 1

      i agree
      ada get the more important issue of state LAWS getting in the way of the blind driving

      --
      warning pointless sig
    3. Re:Let the Market Decide by AnAdventurer · · Score: 1

      plus that lawyer in CA that goes around suing places that are even the slightest ADA noncompliant. He wins often and; ca-ching for him.

      --
      6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
    4. Re:Let the Market Decide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, friggin' cripples. They already get the best parking spots.... haha

    5. Re:Let the Market Decide by ewhenn · · Score: 0, Troll

      Mandating companies to take reasonable measures to accommodate the needs of disabled patrons when the market can't is part of belonging to a civilized society.

      I don't think requiring businesses to foot unprofitable costs, when there is no negative impact to the public at large is reasonable.

      As an example, air scrubbers at chemical plants are costly, but they benefit the entire public by not destroying the environment near the plant so people don't live on chemical polluted lands. Everyone benefits from this. However, in the case of these LED CC projectors, which the business may not recuperate the purchase cost to install because of the limited demographic, and also not having LED CC projectors doesn't negatively impact the public welfare so why should closed caption projectors be mandatory?

      You don't live in a utopia where everyone can be happy all the time and have all of their needs magically taken care of. This is real life. Businesses don't exist to make people pleasant even at the cost of turning an operating cost loss. They aren't fucking charities.

      Is life harder for handicapped people? Yes. Do I "feel" for them? Yeah. Do I think we should make sure they have equal access to mandatory life services? Yup. These whiners need to grow up and realize their disability might limit some things they can do, since that's exactly what a disability is. Welcome to reality, everyone isn't dealt the same hand. Some people have poverty to deal with. Other people have suffer from physical abuse. Etc. Etc. The majority of people have their own hardships to overcome, it isn't the responsibility of private enterprise to try and make up for it.

    6. Re:Let the Market Decide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Australia almost all of our pedestrian crossings use both lights and sound to let you know when it's safe to cross. Whilst this was designed for blind people it has become very useful for sighted people as well. I didn't notice how much I used it until I went to the states and found myself standing at the side of the road looking around even though I had a green light to walk I was still waiting for the walking sound.

      So even though these rules are aimed at helping the disabled they also provide improvements for all users.

    7. Re:Let the Market Decide by Sizzlebeast · · Score: 1

      Try having a disability. Then reconsider how well this strategy works. It doesn't. Having internet access is a significant part of most American's daily lives. Why should someone who is disabled (most likely not caused by a choice) be given less access? Should we also return to other types of discrimination?

    8. Re:Let the Market Decide by ewhenn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why should someone who is disabled (most likely not caused by a choice) be given less access?

      Also, you need to think things through a little. Requiring every company that does business with the public to have "blind software compatible web pages" or whatever will probably negatively impact a large number of people *without* improving the situation for handicapped. Let me give you an example:

      My neighborhood pizza shop has a web menu. It's really basic, just some scanned jpegs of their actual menu. It's a convenience for me, and it probably costs the business like 30 bucks a year for a domain name plus some cheap shared hosting. For a business this is pretty well worth the investment as a convenience to their customers.

      Now say ADA comes along, all of the sudden that business has to make their website menu "handicapped capable". The owner isn't an HTML writer. It's just some basic image tags on a red background. No way does he have the ability to write JAWS compatible code, etc. So now he has to look for a website admin to write and maintain the code every time he wants to change his menu, probably costing a thousand dollars a year or more plus lots of extra hassle. So what's the Pizza shop owner do? He says "fuck it" and pulls the web menu. The situation didn't improve at all for the hadicapped person, there is still no web menu, but now I no longer have a web menu either.

      All this is going to do is fuck with small business a ton and make them less competitive or able to use the web to promote themselves. The large conglomerates will absorb the costs with their financial mass, and the little guys get hurt. Plus it just paves the way for another wave of troll-profiteering lawsuits.

      Also, not being able to do things like everybody else is the negative consequence of having a disability. I never said they chose to be disabled. However, reality is reality. If you are disabled, you just have to accept that there are some things you might not be able to do. Is it unfortunate? Absolutely, however, it's just how it is. The guy with no arms just isn't going to be very good at tennis.

      You also need to realize financial resources are limited. We need to spend them appropriately where they can have the most impact. The needs of the many generally outweigh the needs of the few.

    9. Re:Let the Market Decide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technical point: They are not LED projectors, they are old school variable message signs (a bank of LEDs).

      In terms of your argument, I can't tell if you're intentionally being a troll or just one of those people who honestly believes the stuff you're saying. You are whining from an extreme ideological position and I wonder if you'll still be whining when you become disabled. The "when" is intentional. It is only a matter of time before you are.

    10. Re:Let the Market Decide by Sizzlebeast · · Score: 1

      I will agree with the fact that it could be an issue for small business. It depends upon implementation (which I have admittedly not look closely at in this matter). However, in my experience with the ADA (which is what I was thinking more in terms of), it causes less financial difficulty than you imply. It commonly breaks down to a matter of reasonable accommodations. Therefore, I would assume (maybe inappropriately) that if implemented reasonably, it should not be any more problematic than the original ADA.

      On the basis of money being spent on accommodations for the disabled, we are talking about 1 in 5 Americans (seems to be the consensus on Google) or more than 40 million (from the article). That seems like a fairly large group, when considering the diversity of the United States. Your example with tennis is not particularly fair. The internet is not some tangential leisure activity. Many peoples' livelihoods depend upon the internet. If we followed the free market from accessibility, then many would be stuck in their homes, without means to do otherwise. If you are fine with condemning that many people to such a fine, that is fine, but I'm not.

      Again, I encourage you to really consider the challenges of being disabled. I don't think you fully appreciate it. I don't think I fully appreciate it either, but I can say from my experience at least how hard it is. I'm just thankful there is some chance at normalcy from some.

    11. Re:Let the Market Decide by tallin32 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I'm afraid I'm going to have to refute your argument here (see inline). In the interest of disclosure, I should probably mention I'm blind. But anyway, to the substance of your post.

      I'm all for making sure handicapped people have access to necessary services... however *requiring* movie theaters to provide closed captioning devices at every seat is ridiculous. Watching a movie is is not a life necessity. If the demand is there, and the people that need it are willing to pay a price that makes business sense, then the theaters will have Closed captioning equipment. If it doesn't make business sense, then they won't.

      I think another poster more knowledgeable as to the technology vis a vis the deaf punched a hole in that, so I'll defer to the expert there.

      What the fuck is with the government wanting to tell *PRIVATE* business who they have to make non-mandatory (ie. entertainment) products available to?

      Can you think of another minority to which a broad array of what you'd call non-essential services are denied? As an example, we'll take the on-demand service provided by my cable company. There is absolutely no way I can access that service through my set top box without having someone sighted present ... which translates, really, to "no way that I can access the service through my set top box". Unfortunately, "letting the market decide" there is a bit problematic, since a large chunk of that market, and a large chunk of various television providers, think that blind people don't watch TV. If I had to wait for the collective ignorance of a society that generally defecates themselves when faced with my condition, or generally finds my navigating our local public transit system to get to work of a morning "an inspiration", to catch up with reality, I'd be waiting a couple of centuries.

      ADA is mostly bullshit anyways. Hey, let's also make sure we have a wheel chair ramp for bungee jumping, because you never know when some cripple with deteriorating bones might want to plunge down a hundred feet with only their legs attached to a giant rubber band.

      Oh, wonderful comparison. I'll not spell out the differences between lack of access because of a safety issue (no one with bones that fragile should be bungee jumping) and lack of access because of an ignorance issue (But wait! That iPhone has a touch screen! Wouldn't you rather have a special phone for the blind?)

      Why not require the same Closed captioning devices for normal theater (plays) as well? How about all sporting events too? Gotta have CC devices at the seats so you can hear the refs calls.

      Why not?

      Maybe we need to throw some braille street signs in there too, wouldn't want the blind to be discriminated against when driving a car, you know?

      There needs to be an equivalent to "Godwin's Law" to describe the invocation of either blind people driving (impossible due to current technological limitations) or blind people watching TV (possible, but assumed to be impossible) when these discussions come up. Looking at this logically, which you've completely failed to do here, if there were a means for blind people to be able to drive (cf. Google's self-driving cars), wouldn't it be more cost-effective to use, say, existing GPS infrastructure, already established map providers, and other existing technology? The navigation system to mitigate the lack of ability to see street signs is already in place (it's what allows me to download a map, copy it to my phone, and travel anywhere I take a notion).

      The bottom line is, if there is money to be made, some company *will* do it voluntarily. If the market can't support it, oh well, tough break, it doesn't happen.

      Again, that presupposes that the site's creator even presumes that blind people can use the Web. I'd wager that, until about five seconds before you read these

    12. Re:Let the Market Decide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      go blind, just go blind. I am blind i dont need braille street signs. however audio signaling would be nice. I just listen to traffic. thing is you will never understand out position until you lived in it so go blind use a website like oh i dont know, facebook eharmony go for it.

    13. Re:Let the Market Decide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      go suck a dick, you self-righteous turd

    14. Re:Let the Market Decide by martas · · Score: 1

      If you feel so strongly about this, perhaps instead of trolling on /., you should talk to the legislators working on this, and try to convince them to out in exemptions for small businesses?

    15. Re:Let the Market Decide by martas · · Score: 1

      s/out in/put in/g

    16. Re:Let the Market Decide by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think requiring businesses to foot unprofitable costs, when there is no negative impact to the public at large is reasonable.

      But it's not about the negative impact to the public at large. It's about the impact on individuals. Society isn't just about the sum of happiness, it's also about how the weakest and least able in society are treated. We could just say "well, tough, you're in a wheelchair", but I'm pretty much in favour of society actually trying to improve the lives of people who can't do anything about their situation, to give them a more comfortable life.

      And yes, businesses aren't charities, but they are part of society. That means that they, for instance, get various legal protections (regardless of how much tax they pay). A fire breaks out and a fire engine will be there quickly to put it out. There isn't a sensible alternative to private enterprise providing access to private businesses. You can't do it through more benefits, so it's straightforward and fair on all businesses to just implement accessibility.

      Personally, I'm thankful that I'm not the guy in the wheelchair. And I'm happy for my coffee shop to stick a couple of extra pennies on the price of my mocha so that the guy in the wheelchair to come in.

    17. Re:Let the Market Decide by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Can you think of another minority to which a broad array of what you'd call non-essential services are denied?

      Can you think of another minority that forces every business in existence to go through extra expense to cater to them?

    18. Re:Let the Market Decide by formfeed · · Score: 1

      Can you think of another minority that forces every business in existence to go through extra expense to cater to them?

      Male white men?

    19. Re:Let the Market Decide by tallin32 · · Score: 1

      Can you think of another minority to which a broad array of what you'd call non-essential services are denied?

      Can you think of another minority that forces every business in existence to go through extra expense to cater to them?

      Seems to me the extra cost could be avoided if "the handicapped" weren't seen as "too handicapped to use anything other than essential services" from the beginning. It takes no more man hours for me to test a website for accessibility than it would for J. Random Tester to test that same website. It takes three extra seconds at design time to set btnNewFile.AutomationProperties.AutomationName to "new" whilst your UX designer designs an appropriately flashy image (hint: an advantage to decoupling the visual UI from the ... nonvisual UI? ... is that the nonvisual UI can be as pretty as it needs to be without affecting the nonvisual UI). The reason that adaptation costs so much is that the market didn't make these decisions from the beginning—and this is coming from someone who used to do independent contract work retrofitting software for accessibility before I took a position in the mainstream software industry. For the sake of numbers, let's assume the following: A call center for a major player in the mobile phone industry hires me to retrofit their software, at a cost of $75 per hour over a 40 hour week, twice annually. Cost to them: $6,000. Let's say that this modification made ... 10 people employable that wouldn't otherwise be. Supplemental security income pays ... let's call it $650 to make my life easier, and let's not take into account cost of living adjustments. So, not counting the medical costs, those ten people would be drawing $678,000 worth of taxpayer dollars were it not for those six thousand dollars spent on software accommodations. I'm ... having a little trouble with your rather terse cost/benefit analysis, although I admit a certain bias here.

    20. Re:Let the Market Decide by tallin32 · · Score: 1

      Male white men?

      Women, damn those equal pay laws. Black people—I imagine it cost some money to retrofit places of public accommodations so there were no more "colored water fountains". Anyone that doesn't speak English in America (since it takes man hours to add a new language to a product, a street sign, a website). Working mothers (those breastfeeding rooms in workplaces that support them weren't free, I imagine).

    21. Re:Let the Market Decide by Raenex · · Score: 1

      It takes three extra seconds at design time [..]

      It takes significantly longer to maintain two versions of a web site, one that has to work properly for blind people versus one that only has to work for sighted. If you use any JavaScript, for example, you have to make sure it works without it. You have to make sure a blind person can actually use every feature of your site. Just putting alt-tags everywhere doesn't cut it.

      I'm ... having a little trouble with your rather terse cost/benefit analysis, although I admit a certain bias here.

      A little bias? You made up a best-case scenario where a business spent $6,000 and employed 10 people. In reality, the vast majority of businesses and the American people are going to lose money by requiring every business to cater to a very small portion of the population.

    22. Re:Let the Market Decide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or... right underneath the images, he could slap a plain text version of the menu. When he makes changes to the menu, he can also magically get out his keyboard and magically type it again. Like magic, it's accessible! He doesn't even have to know any html whatsoever: "google pages" and similar services allow you to create plain web pages with absolutely no knowledge save for that of being able to click some pretty buttons.

      People who are under the impression that screenreader accessible text is "difficult" to produce are usually the ones who have never tried to do it. Don't speak about something you don't understand.

    23. Re:Let the Market Decide by tallin32 · · Score: 1

      Two things: 1. Actually, that wasn't a made-up scenario. 2. Does Slashdot use JavaScript? Am I writing a comment to this post? Am I blind? I'm thinking those answers are "I imagine so", "yes", and "yes", respectively. I'm not entirely sure where you're getting the information that states that you have to have the Blind and Sighted versions of a site. Most accessibility consultants worth their salt would throw that idea out, precisely for the reasons you specify. Two sites mean twice the manpower, twice the maintenance—and I tend to avoid the "site optimized for screen readers" for just that reason. Are the regulations specifically calling out that you should avoid JavaScript or dynamic content? If they are, then I side with you and the idea that not using 21st century technology is an unreasonable demand, and that the affected population need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the new millennium.

    24. Re:Let the Market Decide by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Actually, that wasn't a made-up scenario.

      Fair enough, but it's still a best-case scenario.

      Does Slashdot use JavaScript?

      It optionally does. As it so happens, I use Slashdot without it and use the "classic" setting to keep it usable, as the redesign with JavaScript broke functionality.

      Am I writing a comment to this post? Am I blind?

      Could you tell me what screen reader you use? I'm curious how it handles dynamic information, or if it perhaps just ignores it. Anyways, Slashdot is just one site.

      I'm not entirely sure where you're getting the information that states that you have to have the Blind and Sighted versions of a site.

      At the very least then, you have to test with a screen reader, and make sure everything is accessible. It's not trivial.

  18. JAWS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem it the programes the read websites AKA JAWS plane out suck. The amount of extra code needed is a pain. Get Jaws to work and we are fine

    1. Re:JAWS by literaldeluxe · · Score: 1

      The problem it the programes the read websites AKA JAWS plane out suck. The amount of extra code needed is a pain. Get Jaws to work and we are fine

      Very little extra code is needed, unless you're referring to ARIA, which is necessary because rich content is extremely nonstandard. As a result, there's no way for assistive technologies to know what does what without a bit of extra code to make it clear.

    2. Re:JAWS by icebraining · · Score: 1

      We should be moving towards a more semantic web anyway...

  19. Tell you what, end the scans by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    Tell you what.

    You end the pervy scans by child molesters and pervs hired by the TSA to "scan" "nude" images of little kids at airports and "pat them down" ....

    And I'll let you tell me what my Free Speech rights to create any web site I want are.

    Capiche?

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Tell you what, end the scans by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Free Speech gives you the right to say what you want, but it does not give you the right to get a license to operate a business.

  20. Ada by pieisgood · · Score: 1

    I'm stupid, for a just a millisecond I thought they were going to talk about the programming language and how they adapted it for mission critical SERVERS!

    --
    Eat sleep die
  21. Did ADA trolls run out of brick and mortar targets by grapeape · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Im all for equal access and equal opportunity but something really needs to be done about the damn ADA Trolls and the lawyers that feed their "pursuit" of money in the name of equality. I have known of 3 small businesses here in my area that have been basically attacked over non compliance even though there really isn't any real guidance provided in how to comply. Two of the businesses just decided to shut down rather than deal with the legal fees, the other is still fighting after 3 years over non-compliance issues he wasn't even aware of until being sued. I don't think many intentionally want to be seen as discriminatory and most would go out of their way to accommodate as they could afford to but the way the ADA is presented now does nothing but create hostility along with compliance, if half the time and effort put into litigation and enforcement was put into education and assistance for smaller businesses to get compliant it would go along way to giving both sides of the issue what they need without the animosity.

  22. Good SEO by denshao2 · · Score: 1

    If a screen reader can't read it, a search engine also can't.

  23. Video Games are next by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just watch Video games are next. mandatory auto aim. no shadows, and god mod

  24. Government Goes Too Far by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are already way too many regulations on business as it is. What is truly absurd about this is that this would technically apply to CGI and other strictly VISUAL websites. In other words, this is just as idiotic as mandating braille on drive through ATM's. A blind person would never use a drive through window, and a blind person would need to visit a website dedicated to graphics. Yet these things still need to be made accessible to them thanks to a federal government run amok and an "accessible to all" mentality pushed to the very limits of absurdity. Stop wasting money. If a website doesn't see a market in selling their product or service to the blind, then they shouldn't have to make their content accessible.

  25. Re:THEY AREN"T CALLED HANDICAPPED FOR NOTHING !! by icebraining · · Score: 1

    Nobody is claiming for a perfect life for disabled people, just that companies pay their web developers a little more and stop using proprietary shitty formats. This move is good for both disabled and non-disabled people.

    Also, I can't watch your video, I'm not in the US, you insensitive clod!

  26. There IS a scapegoat by HuckleCom · · Score: 1

    The larger side of the ADA/508 compliance revolves around the blind, the scapegoat is called a TTY Relay service.

  27. Re:Not Fine with me by Low+Ranked+Craig · · Score: 1

    This is a huge project, and in many cases from what I've seen, even sites that are compliant are not that useable. It's not that you shouldn't make your site accessible, more customers = more money, right? It's that the "experts" that write these regulations are lawyers and bureaucrats that typically know fuck all about the industry they are regulating from a practical point of view, and are often driven by experts who have skin in the game.

    I also take issue with some of the points in the article.:

    Firstly, only about .3% of Americans (the article is about the ADA before you jump on me about being US centric) are deaf, and only about 2% have severe hearing impairment. I'm not sure why the deaf are included since the web is primarily a visual medium. Will we be expected to provide transcripts for YouTube videos now? Will Apple need to provide transcripts for all the songs sold on Itunes? Blind people on the other hand account for 7.5 Million according to the Braille Institute. I have no clue where the AP comes up with the 40 million number, that is off by a huge margin.

    Secondly, I also disagree with the statement that "40 Million blind and deaf Americans stand to reap the biggest benefits". Actually, no. First it's nowhere close to 40 million, second the people that will benefit the most are people like my self who will bill out hundreds of hours of time offering services to make sites ADA compliant. I think this is a BAD IDEA, but I will lobby my local congressman to support it because if it passes I will make money. That's the bottom line. If the Feds are going to force shit down our throats I'm going to get my piece of the pie. The parent says it's easy and not a big deal. From what I've read and done in the past, it's a lot of extra work that clients don't want to pay for. That's OK, the government will force their hand and I'll get more work in the long run - the web is too important for businesses to simply say screw it and turn off their sites.

    Third, the idea of screens on the back of seats in a theater is simply, fucking stupid. A person texting 5 rows up is distracting with their bright little cell phone screen, how bad is it going to be with screens on the bask of seats? Going to the movies is borderline now with the prices, all the crinkling food wrappers, and rude people talking to the screen. Movies cost too much now. Who's going to pay for all this technology? a theater owner who's making about 5% margin if they're lucky?

    Finally, I take issue with the parent's statement :

    It's not like the web would lose anything but dead weight...

    Who made you the arbiter of good taste. I must have missed the appointment of the Quality Web Content Czar while I was reading a magazine on the crapper.

    --
    I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
  28. Sounds like it'll make some jobs by zullnero · · Score: 1

    You can't outsource a lot of those jobs brushing up sites to support the disabled. However, you could license third party controls that are developed overseas (but you still have to hire people to drop those controls in, and that's often plenty of work in and of itself). Anyway, if you have to update websites to support disabled users, that's a whole lot of work for a whole lot of people. Heck, even if you don't develop websites, there will be work supporting the new hardware needed to support voice and sensory feedback-based content.

    If you're a geek, look at it this way...it's like the y2k boom all over again, though it will actually help people long term and bring more people onto the web instead of serve virtually no purpose. And if you're not a geek, and you run some business and you're panicking about making your website accessible for the disabled, then screw you for dumping on disabled people.

    1. Re:Sounds like it'll make some jobs by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      No, that shit will get outsourced to India. Far cheaper. Hey, they might even take on managing those servers too as a bonus. Nothing like an Indian managed service provider at the helm to run things now. They can also perform maintenance and reboot servers while Corporate America is sleeping. Everyone wins, right?

      Create jobs you say. Hah, not for you. Sucker!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
  29. Typical Garbage again by SirAstral · · Score: 1

    This is why things are getting worse. Everyone is busy voting in laws and guidelines that make their hearts feel good but ultimately cause far more damage. Lets take the requirement to install caption devices in theaters. Instead of the disabled having to pay for themselves, everyone gets to pay! There is nothing left of a nation that one heralded the word "Liberty" when we start forcing people to pay for everyones else's problems. Lets also take into account the recent law that the Consumer Product Safety Commission helped to get passed. Everyone has to test their toys for lead. This sort of nonsense is killing American Industry and Productivity.

    Did any of you stop and think about all the dynamics that lead to American's losing jobs to over seas markets that get to avoid this nonsense? We are intentionally crippling ourselves and making so that only big corporations are able to be productive! Every time we pass a law that makes you feel good we destroy a mom & pop shop's ability to be competitively productive!

    Use your brains because your hearts are not functionally capable of determining what is RIGHT OR WRONG! Sure I would like to see people with disabilities get more out of life, but not at the expense of everyone else! Where is the LIBERTY in that? Where is my responsibility to the diseased, the disabled, or the poor? If I have any, where will the line be drawn? Does my responsibility stop at 10% of my income, does it stop at 50%, or does it stop at 100%, or what ever % decided by the powers? If the government has the authority to levy upon me, via taxes or rule of law, anything that requires me to expend my fortune to assist another in anyway, then that Government has discarded Liberty and assumes authority that only leads to corruption.

    We should not do for others what they should be doing for themselves! No longer does the American citizen ask what they can do for their nation, they now ask what will their government take from another and give to them!

    Liberty is dead, and I fear that its restoration will not be able to won again via Election, but instead with the blood of tyrants and patriots as required by the metaphorical "Tree of Liberty".

    1. Re:Typical Garbage again by Montezumaa · · Score: 1

      While I agree with most of what you said, I do have a problem with one thing. My girlfriend is on the way to being deaf and she is unable to enjoy movies like (most) of the rest of the people around her. Now, instead of ruining other people's enjoyment of a movie, I do believe that she should be given options to help her enjoy what she is paying for.

      When we attend a movie, we usually have to get her one of the shitty wireless headsets that the theater is offering. We have to pay to rent a set and it is full of static. Also, if you can believe it, the sound is much quieter than the sound being driven through the various speakers in the theater. What the fuck is that about?

      We should be able to create a closed caption technology that is visible to those that want to see it and invisible to those that do not. Perhaps in a similar fashion to how "3D" works(current "3D"). Perhaps there is another way.

    2. Re:Typical Garbage again by Lord+Maud'Dib · · Score: 0

      Funny thing is I have good hearing and eyesight but I still don't enjoy most movies. Anyway, sorry that you have to pay to rent the headphones, but no one is putting a gun to your head to go to the movies.

    3. Re:Typical Garbage again by Pikoro · · Score: 1

      Time to trot out the signature quote again:

      (quote is sig was made intentionally shorter to fit the size limit. Here is the full one) "Freedom in the United States of America is no longer the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want." - A. Anderson

      --
      "Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
  30. ADA's philosophy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you can't produce something that can be used by everyone, then you're better off not producing anything at all.

  31. Feds are just blowing smoke by Simonetta · · Score: 1

    The Feds are just blowing smoke. They have far more important things that they should be doing, but aren't. They are just pandering to a few disabled people for votes. I seriously doubt that anyone in the ADA-enforcement business has the serious political pull to do anything more than make grandiose but vague announcements. Especially after the latest election. Tea partyers don't care whether or not disabled people have problems using the internet: nor would they be likely to sponsor legisation that inconvience anyone who might be a future campaign contributor, like big ISPs.
        Put this one down to bureaucratic horseshit that just sparkles and dies when lit off.

    1. Re:Feds are just blowing smoke by pete6677 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Its also a typical case of mission creep. Every bureaucracy must justify their existence and continue to expand in order to justify more money and more people. These federal monsters need to be clawed back before the US faces European rates of taxation to pay for it all.

    2. Re:Feds are just blowing smoke by cforciea · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if we're not careful, we'll end up like socialist countries such as Norway who consistently end up on the top of the list on the Human Development Index. That would be terrible.

    3. Re:Feds are just blowing smoke by sjames · · Score: 1

      The really sad thing is that by the time you sum up all federal, state, and local taxes, we already pay nearly as much in taxes as Europeans, we just don't get very much for it.

  32. wheelchairramp.com by binaryseraph · · Score: 1

    Start > programs > accessories > Magnifier Or whatever it is on windows machines. My point being, there are solutions that are already there and I know there are some other non-native solutions as well. For YEARS lawyers and "concerned citizen" groups have been using the ADA to make money off of small businesses and architects. Now that that has dried up, it is time for them to start harassing the owners of websites. Public websites will be just the start of it, it will eventually be expanded into the private sector. While implementation of tools for better viewing of websites and web content would be a nice feature, it is hardly the job of the government to start making such mandates. The ADA needs to apply to enforcing the rights of the disabled, not the privileges

  33. Speaking as a blind man... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...I have no idea what any of you are saying.

  34. The internet is for porn by Sparx139 · · Score: 1

    About describing images: Which way would it go - Short and to the point, or trying to recreate the image?
    "Blonde hair caresses a woman's shoulders, her exposed skin seems to quiver in the air. Her nipples are concealed beneath her slightly spread hands, tempting you to imagine what lies beneath her palms. Her eyes are staring directly at you, and her lips are curved into a seductive half-smile, inviting and tempting you to fall into her. Her face seems to say, you want me. Have me." sounds a lot more inviting then "A naked woman, hiding her exposed nipples with her hands whilst staring into the camera".

    Anyone want to try this for Goatse or Tubgirl?

    --
    Our culture doesn't get smarter, it just finds new ways of being retarded.
  35. Re:THEY AREN"T CALLED HANDICAPPED FOR NOTHING !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why can't they use proprietary formats, I mean wouldn't that hurt their business and if it doesn't then why is it so bad, I mean yes being a minority is a bitch (me being one of them) but it was the cards you were dealt.

    I also try to make my stuff handicap friendly but the problem with laws is that they are NOT flexible, the link (which I know you can't watch) dealt with a bar as an example, all the handicap people were fine with it, it was accessible but a lawyer suit them because it was not following the ADA specs, and at the trial some came to the business defense but the judges hands were tied due to the inflexible law.

  36. Gods above and below. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sorry you don't have the 'liberty' to be a fucking complete waste, but don't worry, liberty isn't dead:

    You're still at liberty to continue being an ignorant, unproductive, non-contributing member of society.

  37. Ada by CobaltBlueDW · · Score: 1

    Is it just me or did anyone else think the title meant something sensationally different when they read Ada instead of ADA?

  38. Re:THEY AREN"T CALLED HANDICAPPED FOR NOTHING !! by Montezumaa · · Score: 1

    Fuck you...I love being a gimp. I get all sorts of cool drugs and can stay fucked up all the time.

  39. Patent trolls -- now ADA enforcement trolls? by swb · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not to mention the possibility of large fines when my (commercial) websites aren't compliant with some obscure requirement in the new guidelines.

    As the fines and penalties becomes stiffer and the rules become more complex and difficult, will we end up with ADA trolls who find ADA issues and then either offer "remediation consulting services" or an anonymous phone call to whoever enforces the ADA?

  40. World of Warcraft vs ADA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How would this legislation apply to online worlds? Would it have to be possible to complete all possible content in World of Warcraft even if blind? Handicapped accessible dragon lairs seem a little over the top.

  41. goatse left a message.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Something about how much more accessibility he needs to accommodate.

  42. This is great! by kawabago · · Score: 1

    If they force the ADA on technology then Microsoft will have to find a way for Stephen Hawking to use it's new Kinect product. That would be fun to watch.

  43. ADA Requirements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I will say, as a computer technician often pushing a cart around the ADA regs have sure made life a lot easier. Of course i tend to think some of the requirements a bit overkill for some small segments of the population, especally when taxpayer funds are expended to provide a high level of service to relativly few people.

  44. Turn on your TV by subanark · · Score: 1

    Try this - Turn on your TV and enable Closed captioning. Count how many ads have CC.

    My experience is that about 10% do. Most of those 10% are either for hearing aids, or they are targeting senior citizens. Those that don't fit into those categories often don't do CC as well as they could. I saw an Intel commercial a while back that had CC for every thing, including repeating text that was already on the screen, and informing the viewer that the Intel sound bit was played.

  45. RFID by Mathinker · · Score: 1

    Never heard about RFID?

    BTW, you'd need a lot more than "a radioactive particle or two", considering that the blind person his/herself is emitting more radiation than that!

  46. How arbitrary. by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

    What's the rule here? Anything delivered via port 80? Anything that uses HTML? Anything anyone can download over the Internet? I don't understand how they can apply this. Sure, there are fairly obvious cases but if I'm sending you flash content that can be run in your browser or standalone, do my standalone apps have to be compliant? Silverlight? What about a Java application that can also run as an applet? This is going to be yet another "I know it when I see it" law that will be misapplied and used to file frivolous lawsuits on a daily basis.

  47. Target the browser not the web server! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Back-ass-wards, I say.

    It seems to me that this functionality should be handled by the web browser application, not the pages the server is serving up to the clients. I'm sure that it is a lot of work to add the functionality to a www client, but would it not be less expensive to modify the browser software (and plug-ins), rather than recode bazillions of web-sites?

    I think that the answer is to update the way that browsers read HTML and Flash, and provide an alternate rendering mechanism for the disabled persons (enabled in browser setup / or options), and then there would be no need to insist that everyone, and their brother, change their content.

    I would think that changing the browser would be a lot less expensive than changing each public website. Especially considering that it would be like herding cats to get them all changed.

  48. Drive-by lawsuits coming your way by bradley13 · · Score: 1

    The ADA is already hugely abused: people sue businesses for trivial reasons, not because they have been harmed in any way, but because the ADA lets them financially rape any business that fails to meet any aspect of the guidelines. Even if the business would likely win in court, the costs of defending yourself are such that most settle out of court.

    If the government starts enforcing the ADA on website, you may be sued because you forgot an ALT-tag somewhere in a website with a thousands of images. And, yes, it really will be that trivial - just like the brick-and-mortar business that was sued because the mirror in their bathroom was a couple of inches too high.

    Here is the non-PC question that needs to be asked: Why should the government force business owners to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to cater to a tiny portion of the population? Why should the non-disabled not be allowed to patronize a mom-n-pop restaurant on the top floor of an old building with no elevator? Is it really better to force the restaurant out of business? Being disabled means - guess what - that you cannot do everything a non-disabled person can. The ADA goes much, much too far...

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:Drive-by lawsuits coming your way by kk5wa · · Score: 1

      The ADA is also hugely ignored.

      You expect the stall door to close in a public restroom so you can have a little privacy. Shouldn't someone in a wheelchair expect the same?

      --
      sine puella vita suget
  49. What fundamental right is at stake here? by bradley13 · · Score: 1

    I knew of a lovely, quaint old shop in New England, in a building built more than 200 years ago. The ceiling and doorways were so low that I had to duck (and I am not particularly tall). There was no handicapped ramp, if they had a toilet, it certainly will not have been wheelchair accessible. I have no idea if the shop still exists, as I haven't been that way in some time. It was clearly only a matter of time before some ADA nut closed it down. And yet, how does closing such a shop make the world a better place?

    Why should a private business be required to cater to the disabled? What principle is at stake here? What fundamental right of the disabled is being violated by a business without a ramp, or without alt-tags on its website?

    A private business should be able to cater to whomever it pleases. Adults only. Children only. English-speaking only. Men only. Women only. You cannot require customers to patronize a particular business, and you should not be able to require a business to cater to particular customers. If you believe otherwise, I want a membership at that women's gym across the street...

    The federal government is overstepping its bounds. There is no Constitutional right at stake, and the ADA simply should not exist. If anything, this may be a subject for State legislation.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
  50. And here... by hitmark · · Score: 1

    i thought it was about the ada programming language...

    --
    comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    1. Re:And here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that it is spelled "Ada."

  51. fixed your link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    You wanted to provide the link to the actual proposed 508 new rules as published in the Federal Register in March: http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/refresh/draft-rule.htm. There are differences from WCAG 2.0 just as the current 508 rules differ from WCAG 1.0.

    HOWEVER, those are just the proposed new rules for Government websites whereas what the developer really wanted to know is what rules will be imposed on non-Government websites. As far as I know the process hasn't gotten as far as any committee reviewing the rules for Government websites and deciding which ones are reasonable to impose upon private sites.

  52. I'll take my site down rather than comply by valderost · · Score: 1

    I will take my neighborhood civic association website down before I spend my personal, volunteer time to make it ADA compliant. It's not that I don't want it to comply, but there's simply no budget to hire people who know how to do this right, and I can't put the extra time in to do this myself.

  53. 508 compliance idiocy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I had to make a .mil site only accessed by aircrew 508-compliant.

    Disclaimer: My wife is a paraplegic. I understand the ADA.

  54. Another Tax On Business by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

    to provide comfort for a very small minority. Call me cold hearted and cruel but I do not believe either individuals or busineses should be compelled to provide any assistance at all to the disabled. In effect the government is mandating that money be spent on 'compassion'. Let me decided how I wish to be compassionate and how much. Let business decide whether it is to their advantage to spend what are sometimes very large sums to provide easy access (off or online) to the disabled. Frankly the same applies to government spending. I don't want to see projects done that are soley for the purpose of providing some minority group with better access to facilities or services. If something new is built and these features can be added at no or limited extra cost, fine go for it. But don't rip down what is perfectly good to accomodate the very few at the expense of the very many.

    1. Re:Another Tax On Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For starters, tell that to the newly-disabled veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan.

      Tell that to my wife, who was disabled immediately after birth by a doctor who, admittedly, made a mistake.

      Tell them all that they are of less worth than you because you think they're a "minority" and they don't deserve equal access protection under the law.

    2. Re:Another Tax On Business by tallin32 · · Score: 1

      to provide comfort for a very small minority. Call me cold hearted and cruel but I do not believe either individuals or busineses should be compelled to provide any assistance at all to the disabled. In effect the government is mandating that money be spent on 'compassion'.

      I'm a bit confused as to your use of "compassion" here, as it seems to imply the view that the disabled as an entire population are suffering from some sort of affliction, and improving access is equivalent to putting a tenner in the Salvation Army kettle at Christmas. Ludicrous examples such as Braille street signs aside, peradventure it's the attitude that disabled people are patients, sick, incapable of equal participation when given equal access, that made these measures necessary in the first place.

    3. Re:Another Tax On Business by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

      So how much do you want out of my check book for their suffering? Will $100 do? or $10,000? I fail to see my obligation. As to the war vets, in theory we have assistance in place to reintegrate them as best possible as they were injured serving on behalf of the entire country which is starkly different than someone who is injured in an auto crash or from birth defect, etc. And no, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say handicapped people are worth less. I said they are not worth more.

    4. Re:Another Tax On Business by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

      When I had knee surgery it was a challenge to walk on crutches, not to mention open doors. Yet I did not go seeking funds from the government to build me a ramp and auto-opening door to my home. I did not curse out the store owners who had traditional doors which required extra effort on my part or a helping hand by a passerby. I did not feel it was anyones obligation to help me and that is the crux of the matter here. What seems to be implied in this whole argument is that handicapped persons just sat home and did nothing prior to the recent government acts mandating the various forms of access assistance. They did not. They found ways and I'll be the first to say for some it was probably quite hard. Does this mean that a small store owner with a three step walk up must put in thousands of dollars they probably don't have to build a ramp for the likely few users and even fewer buyers who are handicapped? On the other hand, a larger store - Walmart or some regional variant has the means and the economic interest to provide such access. As such they will see the business, not the mom and pop store. I'm not against building curbs that make it easier for wheel chairs. Just dont rip up a perfectly good side walk to do so. When its time to replace because of age, do it then as it costs virtually nothing extra at that time.

  55. Slippery slope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So there is going to be a time in the future I can be sued my pants off if my business does not have a web site. It might seem quite far fetched now but these lunatics are going to drag ADA compliance to such extents.

    I think I should be able to sue ADA because I am hearing impaired and ADA website is barely audible to me.

  56. Re:Did ADA trolls run out of brick and mortar targ by tallin32 · · Score: 1

    Im all for equal access and equal opportunity but something really needs to be done about the damn ADA Trolls and the lawyers that feed their "pursuit" of money in the name of equality. I have known of 3 small businesses here in my area that have been basically attacked over non compliance even though there really isn't any real guidance provided in how to comply. Two of the businesses just decided to shut down rather than deal with the legal fees, the other is still fighting after 3 years over non-compliance issues he wasn't even aware of until being sued. I don't think many intentionally want to be seen as discriminatory and most would go out of their way to accommodate as they could afford to but the way the ADA is presented now does nothing but create hostility along with compliance, if half the time and effort put into litigation and enforcement was put into education and assistance for smaller businesses to get compliant it would go along way to giving both sides of the issue what they need without the animosity.

    I have to agree on the "very little guidance being given". As I found myself doing accessibility testing on thick client software and websites in addition to my usual testing, I'd seen instances where folks followed precisely what was in their developer docs, or implemented accessibility after having spent maybe three to five minutes with accessibility tools (usually because of a lack of high quality user acceptance testing in the accessibility field). Again, I can't speak as much for architectural barriers, but for access to normally visually presented information, I totally concur that more guidance and documentation needs to be made available. Two things that this makes me wonder--first, if the government is going to implement these regulations, are they going to provide grants for smaller companies to bring their sites up to code? Second, as these regulations become more widespread, would it not make sense that the tools needed to implement them would become more common, and thus we'd see an end to the need to retrofit existing technology?

  57. Re:THEY AREN"T CALLED HANDICAPPED FOR NOTHING !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You realize many companies don't USE web developers? They aren't needed for every small business. They would be with this.

    One of the internet's strengths is its easy access, low cost of entry... the small business and lone individual have an ability to reach people in a degree they never could before. How do the non-disabled benefit by having this bar raised and many of these small sites eliminated?

    I suppose we could all outsource our blogs and host them overseas. I doubt it'd take long for plenty of services to set up for that.