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Google Warns Irish Government Against Tax Increase
theodp writes "The Irish government has been given a stark warning from some of the biggest American companies in Ireland on the risk of a mass exodus if the country's controversial low corporate tax rate is raised in return for an IMF/EU bailout to shore up the country's beleaguered banking system. According to The Telegraph, a statement signed by senior execs at Microsoft, HP, Bank of America, Merrill Lynch, and Intel points out that although Ireland's tax rate may be low in European terms, it is not when compared with locations such as Singapore, India and China. Separately, the head of Google's 2,000-strong European HQ in Dublin told the Belfast Telegraph, 'anything that impinges on Ireland's competitiveness is going to be a big thing for Google,' adding, 'anything that increases the cost-base of a business is negative for competitiveness.'"
God forbid any company would actually contribute taxes to the infrastructure of the countries in which they operate. I mean, that would just make too much sense.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. But light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
I can't begin to count how many times over the past few years I heard that we needed to emulate the "Celtic Tiger."
If they're actually that big and that well entrenched in Ireland, they won't just pick up their ball and go home that easily
And if they're not, then who gives a fuck if they leave?
If only raising taxes in the United States were enough to get rid of J.P. Morgan Chase, Bank of America and Merrill Lynch. Ireland should jump at the chance to jettison these systemically dangerous financial institutions and replace them with sound banks of their own.
Fareed Zakaria: "While businesses have a way to navigate this new world of technological change and globalization, the ordinary American worker does not. Capital and technology are mobile; labor isn't...That makes it more difficult for the American middle-class worker to benefit from technology and global growth in the same way that companies do. At this point, economists will protest. Historically, free trade has been beneficial to rich and poor. By forcing you out of industries in which you are inefficient, trade makes you strengthen those industries in which you are world-class. That's right in theory, and it has been right in practice...And yet something feels different this time."
A corporation serves only its self interest - it cares not about the local area(s) it operates in as long as it can get some sort of special tax treatment etc. They want full use of roadways - airports - water -etc by paying nothing or as little as possible. Yes they hire locals who have to make up the "sweetened tax deals" out of their own earnings.
I say let them move all their crap to crappy nations and see how that works out for them.
Its not the years, its the mileage
Not that I disbelieve you, but do you have any citations for the costs of a Wal-Mart to a community being more than the busienss and taxes it brings in?
Like a city whose walls are broken down is a man who lacks self-control.
This madness has got to stop.
Executives for healthy companies that move a bit too many activities abroad for no good reason should be forced to stand behind their acts and move their ass where they put our money and jobs.
Yeah. Just joking.
Google is using the standard "report income where tax is lowest" strategy in EU. Google has subsidiaries in multiple countries, and they can avoid paying more taxes by moving their income around as internal expenses.
Subsidiaries appear to be barely breaking even, and mothercompany reports higher profit.
There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.
Enjoy state ownership/competition in China and gross incompetence in India that will cost you more in sales and long-term brand recognition than you'd ever pay in actualized taxes.
Now Singapore is a relatively new and untested place for offshoring, which is a risk in itself.
It's also worth noting, of course, that none of these places are in Europe, which was the whole point of opening offices in Ireland to begin with. All these companies already have a presence in Asia, so basically they are threatening to do something that they already did, and they want people to believe that they'll give up their regional presence in Europe in order to effectively gain nothing.
It's a poor bluff.
.. and to eat it at same time. It does not mind all governments to be near broke, as long as they have the money. Well it does not work that way, as it seems that all countries that give them safe tax haven will either fail or be unstable to do business in long term.
Corporations should not be above people and government - as we can see they can abuse both to get what they want ($). It is okay to make money, don't get me wrong, but it appears in this process there's only one winner - Big Co, and Joe Smith ends up with the (tax) bill.
How come we have situations where companies make insane amount of money and governments that allow them to be in market are near broke? Well answer is obvious - they abuse system, or lack of it.
So if google wants to help - well it can pay their debt bill. Because they are partially responsible for it.
I haven't specifically found what I'm talking about, but some of the various problems can be found outlined, with citations, here: http://wakeupwalmart.com/facts/
It's not a bullshit comparison. You see, the companies are not interested in running the government, they are interested in running their own business which means that if it is cheaper in China or India or with the same results, then that's where they can run their business for less.
The comparison here isn't about what government provides it's citizens or the citizen's expected lifestyle, the comparison is on where the company can be run the most effectively for the least amount of expense.
Personally, I think they should do away with corporate taxes altogether. All money corporations make either go to the share holder by way of dividend, or is invested into expanding the company. Expansion of the company means more commerce which means more sales and more taxes on sales but it also means more jobs and more services and products that people can afford. Going to the share holder means income which means more income taxes and all perceived lost revenue outside of that which would go to foreign investors, could be captured by simple progressive income taxes with a small increase on income from dividends.
Ireland is part of the EU. Therefore it can export to the rest of the EU with impunity, no extra tax. Ireland leeches off the rest of the EU. Exporting from Singapore would have huge tax issues.
If they want to leave, make it hurt badly(if not something that outright kills the company). Then make the company an example of how things can go wrong in a robbery
And then no company will want to set up shop in your country again. Why would they, when the risk is driven up that high?
You can find a good few of the studies that have been done catalogued here. The tl;dr version is that Wal-Mart does not pay well or offer benefits, so its workers generally require public assistance to make up the shortfall. Very little of the money it makes stays local (most of it, of course, is being shipped right off to China), and it's often structured or "incentivized" by the city to pay very little tax. This results in a group of people who are long-term dependent on public assistance (both those who work at Wal-Mart and those who do not, since Wal-Marts tend to drastically reduce the number of decent jobs in an area), so it's a massive drain but only a small boost to the local economy.
I recall a story some time ago of how Wal-Marts actually had materials in some of their break rooms of how to apply for food stamps and the like. Admittedly, I can't find the cite for that, but it certainly illustrates the problem. People with a steady, full-time job shouldn't need food and medical aid.
Granted, it's not only Wal-Mart. A lot of these "minimum wage" type places are similar leeches. They're basically taking the money states and cities are putting into food and medical aid and pocketing it, since they're not paying a wage anyone could realistically live on.
To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
Doubtful.
But this reminds me of an anecdote I once heard where the Colombian drug lords offered to pay off the national debt if the Colombian government legalized drugs.
I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
When a private corporation attempts to dictate to a sovereign state which policies the state should adopt, there is something terribly wrong with the world.
Everyone knows why they are in Ireland to begin with. If they raise the rate just a little at a time, they will not feel the need to leave. Companies like that almost never follow through on threats like that just because they said they would. All they have to do is raise the rates just enough that they won't leave and also get enough of an increase to make a difference for Ireland.
Except that Google and many other tech companies don't pay out dividends at all.
Corporate tax is the equivalent of income tax for corporations. So if everyone has to pay their income tax, why should corporations be exempt of that?
You seem to have a strangely optimistic fate that the corporations will do good with the money, but fail to present a good reason why they should do so.
Employees are just assets/liabilities of them, but don't really belong in the same bucket with the obligations of their income.
Ireland is just being used as a proxy here, imho. This is really aimed at the EU which is generally a high tax area. Corporations probably wouldn't dare to insult the EU directly but it's OK, apparently, to diss Ireland now that it's been brought low by corruption and incompetence. Given its history, location out on the fringes of mainland Europe and the strength of lack of it of the Irish economy, attractive rates of corporation tax are probably one of the few USPs Ireland has to attract jobs and business. So it's probably a good idea to keep these tax rates low but that is, or should be, the sovereign decision of the Irish people and what they decide we should respect. It's worth pointing out that of the corporations doing the complaining, two are utterly discredited and owe their continued existence to public funding (the banks) and three are gross monopolies. Complaints from outfits like these that poor people should become poorer so that rich people elsewhere can become richer are pretty darn sickening. If the Irish people decided to send these fellows home in a rowing boat, one couldn't blame them.
However, the larger question here is whether the EU/IMF bailout of Ireland will be sensitive and sympathetic. If the rulers of the EU (i.e., France and Germany) use the exercise as an excuse to strip Ireland of the few advantages it has, such as the option of offering low rates of corporate taxes, claiming "harmonisation" but with the real aim of luring these companies elsewhere then the "rescue" will really amount to a rape. These days you don't need to strip factories and ship them home, you just need to shuffle the foreign bank accounts and trusts around. Given the arrogance and clumsiness of those who run the EU, it would be prudent not to be too confident.
Las qué passoun
tournoun pas maï
There are actually two separate issues here.
Issue 1.
We're talking about American companies based in the U.S. that base their European headquarters in Ireland for the Tax breaks. All this occurs only because higher level executive can order some European executive to live in Ireland. Alcatel, Airbus, Nokia, etc. are not based in Ireland because Ireland is a shit hole.
If Ireland raises their tax rates, but still keeps their taxes slightly lower than France, German, England, etc., all these American companies will keep their existing European corporate headquarters in Ireland. Ireland would need to raise their tax rates slight above some other European country before any corporate headquarters moves.
Issue 2.
All these American companies maintain European work forces in Ireland because the corporate tax rates are lower. If Ireland raised it's tax rates, they might consider moving some facilities to European countries with cheaper labor, like Spain, Poland, etc.
We're not talking about a terribly fast process however for various reasons such as : The company benefiting from specific work forces being near their European corporate headquarters, which we've established won't move. Inability to simple move the people coupled with a lack of suitable workers in the new country. etc.
So what is the real cost of raising taxes?
Easy, Ireland will cease growth due to new foreign investment. American companies will not establish new divisions in an expensive shit hole like Ireland once the corporate taxes rise to European standards. Instead, they'll either look for lower wage locations in Eastern or Southern Europe, or preferably India and Singapore. Or they'll invest in more expensive but better educated workers in probably Germany, but maybe Scandinavia or France.
In fact, almost any jobs that could be exported to India and Singapore will most likely be exported eventually anyways. So honestly all the other countries of Europe will benefit enormously from forcing Ireland to raise it's corporate tax rates. I'd argue this holds true even if this means the ECB must bail them out eventually.
Ireland fucked up. Germany & co. now own their ass. Time to pay the piper guys. And one payment will be more American investment in Germany instead of Ireland.
p.s. Don't forget that China isn't exactly an option. Google is currently only discussing their moral qualms with China. All the industrial espionage is however a major problem for *all* companies. You realize even being married to a chinese national precludes you from any kind of U.S. security clearance? It's entirely realistic that the U.S. could start banning software developed in China from any sort of sensitive industrial processes. etc. China isn't a good option, plus the Indians do software better.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
I live in Ireland, and like many Irish people I'm sick about hearing about the economy. Things on the ground in Ireland are actually pretty good: people are still spending so VAT income is good, and our exports are doing well throughout this recession. It is widely predicted that we will have a medium-term export led recovery. The problem we have is that the financial markets are not prepared to lend to us at less that an exorbitant interest rate of ~8% due to the perception that our deficient is massive, which is an anomaly due to the EU forcing us to include our own internal bank bailout (NAMA) on the countries balance sheet. Basically our problems are at the macro level not at the micro level: lots of Irish companies including the one I work for are still doing very well in this tough global economy thank you. The only reason we have to go to EU & IMF for funding at 5% interest is because the markets are screwing us at 8%. It is the markets that are hurting us, not corporations like Google etc. which are creating a lot of wealth in the country with the high salaries they pay.
This is a huge issue for Google. But not because of Google's operations in Ireland. Google's whole tax-avoidance strategy, which gets Google's tax rate down to 2.4% (!), is based on a tax strategy which exploits Irish law:
Google Inc. cut its taxes by $3.1 billion in the last three years using a technique that moves most of its foreign profits through Ireland and the Netherlands to Bermuda.
Google's income shifting -- involving strategies known to lawyers as the "Double Irish" and the "Dutch Sandwich" -- helped reduce its overseas tax rate to 2.4 percent, the lowest of the top five U.S. technology companies by market capitalization, according to regulatory filings in six countries.
"It's remarkable that Google's effective rate is that low," said Martin A. Sullivan, a tax economist who formerly worked for the U.S. Treasury Department. "We know this company operates throughout the world mostly in high-tax countries where the average corporate rate is well over 20 percent."
The Bloomberg article describes how this works. Google "licenses its advertising technology" to "Google Ireland Holdings", which owns "Google Ireland Limited". That unit sells 88% of Google's $12.5 billion in non-US advertising. Google Ireland Limited then pays royalties to Google Netherlands Holdings B.V. in Amsterdam (which, according to Bloomberg, is a dummy company with no employees), to get the benefit of a tax break for royalties paid between European Union countries. Then Google Netherlands Holdings B.V. pays royalties to Google Ireland Holdings (headquartered in Bermuda) $5.4 billion in "royalties". "You accumulate profits within Ireland, but then you get them out of the country relatively easily. And you do it by using Bermuda." After all that, the tax liability has been laundered out of existence.
That's why Google is concerned about changes in Ireland's tax laws.
Back in like 1905, corporations paid 50% of all Federal taxes, meaning individuals weren't taking the hit. Now corporations are paying like 5% of the federal taxes. I'd say rebalance the taxes onto corporations.