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How the 'Tech Worker Visa' Is Remaking IT In America
theodp writes "Back in 2008, the Department of Homeland Security enacted a controversial 'emergency' rule to allow foreign students earning tech-related degrees in the US to work for American employers for 29 months after graduation without a work visa. The program would allow US companies to recruit and retain the 'best' science and tech students educated at the top US universities, explained Microsoft. But two-and-a-half years later, it turns out the top US universities are getting schooled by less-renowned institutions. Computerworld reports the DHS program is dominated by little-known, for-profit Stratford University, whose 727 approved requests for post-graduate Optional Practical Training (OPT) STEM extensions tops all schools and is more than twice the combined total of the entire Ivy League — Brown (26), Columbia (105), Cornell (90), Dartmouth (18), Harvard (27), Princeton (16), Penn (50), and Yale (9). In second place, with 533 approved requests, is the University of Bridgeport. In another twist, the program's employers include IT outsourcing and offshoring 'body shops' like Kelly Services, whose entities snagged about 50 approvals, more than twice the combined total of tech stalwarts Google (15), Amazon.com (2), Yahoo (2), and Facebook (3)."
Clearly the private, for profit schools produce more competitive students.
"Back in 2008, the Department of Homeland Security enacted a controversial 'emergency' rule to allow foreign students earning tech-related degrees in the U.S. to work for American employers for 29 months after graduation without a work visa.
While citizens who could use the training and work, are given the short shaft, thanks to various loopholes in need of closure. They have the skills, it's time we made companies actually recognize that.
Think about it before you throw your exception to the rule about a specific thing not being found.
The program would allow U.S. companies to recruit and retain the 'best' science and tech students
Bullshit. We have all the people we need, we just aren't willing to engage in fraud. Businesses however, are.
But two-and-a-half years later, it turns out the top U.S. universities are getting schooled by less-renowned institutions. Computerworld reports the DHS program is dominated by little-known, for-profit Stratford University, whose 727 approved requests for post-graduate Optional Practical Training (OPT) STEM extensions tops all schools and is more than twice the combined total of the entire Ivy League -- Brown (26), Columbia (105), Cornell (90), Dartmouth (18), Harvard (27), Princeton (16), Penn (50), and Yale (9). In second place, with 533 approved requests, is the University of Bridgeport. In another twist, the program's employers include IT outsourcing and offshoring 'body shops' like Kelly Services, whose entities snagged about 50 approvals, more than twice the combined total of tech stalwarts Google (15), Amazon.com (2), Yahoo (2), and Facebook (3)."
This might be the real story. Either the fraud's moved over to those universities, or the fraud shops got seriously blindsided.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
This reminds me of the Stephen Colbert + Mexican farm workers demonstrating how even when offered US workers didnt take the farming jobs. It is not that Americans dont have the skills - it is just that the ones with the skills didnt want to do the back breaking work for the pay offered.
IT consulting is a legitimate need. You may not think so - but most companies dont want a hoard of IT employees. Most of them want a few dozen when starting on some boring implementation (Say Oracle ERP.. or SAP), and once done - they want these dozens to leave. They dont want to train them - they want consultants who can come do the job and then leave. Google etc. do cool stuff and get the best - unfortunately such jobs are few - most IT jobs are now boring jobs which involve pedestrian work.
Most americans want to join Deloitte and Accenture and become 'Functional Consultants' not coders - or they want jobs where they can code something interesting - and at a good wage. They get paid a starting salary of 60K-70K to be analysts who neither program, nor know the applications. All the boring coding is done by Kelly services or other 'body shop' consultants who are here on H1B or F1-Opt, and they get paid around $40-50K. These jobs which involve travelling 4-5 days a week, coding something in PLSQL or JAVA or even just testing are not usually taken by Americans because most americans CS grads want a 'programming cool stuff' job without any travel.
Give these indians and chinese H1Bs.. or watch the coding completely move offshore. Virtualization and companies like oDesk have already provided enuff technology to make coding offshore completely viable. Then - the result will be what happend with manufacturing - nothing here at home! You cant expect to get paid 2x-4x for similar skills and productivity.
As long as mexicans are required to pluck fruits in Cali... you can be sure there will be indians here to do testing and boring IT coding. And just like a Stanford degree doesnt help much in plucking fruits - ditto with basic dirty IT jobs - you need warm bodies ... not ultra innovative geniuses to do the job!
The contractor that Serrano trained at IBM was from China, but Serrano didn't know her immigration status. And despite having to train her replacement, ...
I had to do the same thing at another company and he was the one who asked me what the '*' by variables mean and "what's a pointer?"
That's why when I hear some big shot at Intel, IBM or any other big corp says that they are hiring overseas because 'they can't find qualified Americans", I have to go off and mumble "Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. ... "
Just tell the fucking truth. They want cheaper labor. That's why as Indian salaries go up, they move to other countries.
Nope. It's corporate America. How do you tell when a PR person is lying? Their lips move.
Of course the economists will say this is good for the entire economy. Really? Then why have real wages been stagnant for over a decade - for everyone?
Go up the food chain? How can we when even the upper food chain jobs are leaving. Except of course upper management. But that will change. Some foreign based company without the obscene upper management pay of IBM or Intel is going to come in and eat their lunches - you'll see.
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
... probably aren't high on the recruiting list for IT and technology professionals. MIT, Carnegie-Mellon, U.C. Berkeley, Stanford, ... several state universities, and on down are where the action is for engineering and computer science. So clearly there are more "tech" jobs in the specialties where these schools are hiring, likely those requiring less education. The problem with this data is that it has no basis for comparison to how the visa program is actually changing anything.
I had tried to recruit some talented MSEE grads for some time back in 2007 and found, frustratingly, that most were here in student visas and the pool of H1-B visas were much smaller. We couldn't count on obtaining an H1-B and had to turn down a few very talented people. And, no, at the time we did not find as many U.S. citizens available.
A better data point would be to show the percentage of student visa holders that have remained the in U.S. with this program.
And if anyone wants to complain about these programs taking jobs from U.S. citizens, then it should start by reducing the number of student visas on offer. Once someone is well trained by our schools it's insane to not let them stay and add to our GDP.
How about we eliminate H1-B and L-1 visas and start hiring Americans again?
The economy is going down the tubes because greedy corporations aren't willing to pay a living wage. They don't even want to hire Americans, because the indentured servitude of the H1-B visa is too attractive to them. This is the primary reason why the middle class is shrinking: there aren't that many good jobs left (unless you're an ivy-league child of the rich, in which case "daddy" or one of his friends will make room for you somewhere).
Between the end of WWII and the start of this outsourcing nonsense, spending by the middle class was the engine that drove our economy. Now that the middle class is in rapid decline, corporations are trying to expand third-world markets to preserve their profits. So Congress is writing love letters to India and China by doing things like expanding foreign-worker visa programs.
This in turn is eliminating any desire for young people to study science or technology. Why should they, when all those jobs have moved overseas or are being handed out to visa holders? The kids are going to study law or business, things they can use in a third world economy (i.e. the future America).
The corporations are run by idiots who think the executive levels are the only important parts of the corporation to keep in the U.S. They are going to find out the hard way that they should have kept their tech staff on board, when India Inc. and China realize that they can manufacture their own executives TOO. All they have to do is drop-kick American corporations out of the country, and replace them with home-grown alternatives. This will happen within a decade, I think.
By then, there won't be ANY Americans bothering to study STEM subjects in our schools -- it'll be nothing but foreign kids, who will go right back where they came from when they graduate. We Americans are already a minority in graduate programs here. And it'll simply be too late. The professors are all foreign. The kids are all foreign. When they all go home, we won't have anything left at all.
It's all so pathetic. Rich people are so petty and stingy they're destroying their own future to make a little extra bread in the present. If they weren't destroying our future as well, I'd wish them bon voyage, but as it is they're taking the whole country down the tubes.
The only ones among us who will still know anything are hobbyists and small-scale manufacturers and hackers. And we aren't going to be inclined to try and help the corporations when they finally realize they need us.
Thus spake the master programmer:
"When the program is being tested, it is too late to make design changes." (Tao)
Going to an Ivy League school doesn't necessarily mean you're smarter; it just means your parents have a lot of money.
It's amazing how Slashdot's usual libertarian attitude to just about everything develops a strong protectionist bent as soon as American tech jobs are on the line.
how about starting by moving the manufacturing sector back to the USA, it will definitely create millions of more jobs (compared to a very few thousand in IT) leading to a flourishing middle class and turn the economy around like a miracle... when was the last time you saw something made in u.s.a.?
Like the old saying goes - penny wise pound foolish, there are bigger things we should be worrying about..
That's true, but the idle rich tend to not take technical courses... It's a safe bet that Ivy League CS are smarter (on average).
But that's tangential; even if intelligence were the same, the training is totally different. These private mills are turning out day laborers (of whatever intelligence) and, as the original poster pointed out, not a whole lot of them.
Still, that there is more demand (in raw numbers) for code monkeys than theoretical computer scientists in the DHS (which I can imagine is a true bastion of intellectualism...) shouldn't be particularly surprising to anyone. It follows immediately that a program for generating the former would be more successful.
If one were from Mars, it would seem a little bit strange that the US is running a welfare program (DHS) whose principal recipients are private companies and foreigners, but for anyone living here it ought not be surprising.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
Dude. Nuclear stuff would be top secret - meaning foreign scientists wouldn't be allowed to work on them.
Uh, dude, nuclear weapons were largely developed by foreign scientists in America.
Going to an Ivy League school doesn't necessarily mean you're smarter; it just means your parents have a lot of money.
Except that's lot of people at Ivy league schools are students there on scholarships. I wasn't one of those. I went to Yale, and both my parents were Yale grads. I like to think I'm smart, but being from a high income bracket with legacy obviously helped a lot. But many if not most students didn't fall into that sort of category. For example, I knew one person who was the first female in her family to go to college ever and the first one in three generations not to have a teen pregnancy. She got to Yale by being very smart and working really hard.
It's amazing how Slashdot's usual libertarian attitude to just about everything develops a strong protectionist bent as soon as American tech jobs are on the line.
If American firms said, "We're going overseas for cheaper labor." I could accept that. But when they say they are going overseas because US workers aren't good enough, that's just a down right lie and shitty of them and I'll remember - Intel and IBM.
I understand that there are billions of people on Earth and all of them are just as capable as Americans and as a result, all labor is now a commodity. I accept that. Nothing can be done either and even if there were, I wouldn't want it to be done because that outcome would be worse - I know enough about economics to know that much (See what happened in the 30s when tariffs were enacted ).
And it's really frustrating when you try to get more education and training to move to another line of work (resulting many times in a shitload of school debt), you have trouble because of age or every other out of work IT guy is jumping at the opportunity (I think there's going to be a HUGE glut of nurses in a few years for one), and you see more go overseas - but you're told the same trite line "you just need to retrain and get education" - it's not working anymore. The economy isn't growing fast enough to employ all the new college grads let alone the millions out of work.
Shit's not good.
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
This system pisses me off greatly (and I am an American citizen, born in the US; but I have seen many good colleagues end up deported under this idiotic legislation). If a student from another country comes to the US to do their PhD, they will - on average in the hard sciences - be here for 4-7 years doing work for an American lab. That time they are doing important research, in our country, in English. Then when they finish, we give them an agonizingly short amount of time to get a work visa or leave. I am being far too kind to call this shortsighted on our part. If there was any law I could change in this country today, it would be this one. Students who come to the US for doctoral research should be, in my opinion, short-tracked for citizenship.
And it is even worse if that student wants to visit their birth country while studying here or immediately after finishing. I know someone from an Eastern European country who did her PhD here and was told if she went back to see her family after finishing she would not be allowed back into the US for 6-9 months minimum. She has spoken English since she was about 3 years old. Why should we punish her for doing her research (and contributing to American science) here?
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
No, but your chances of being able to afford it would've been significantly less. Good for you that you were motivated to bust your butt to get in. But for every Ivy League student, there are a hundred other students who are just as smart who are attending other schools because they couldn't afford the tuition.
What I object to is the implication (as embodied in the post I responded to) that Ivy Leaguers are somehow automatically better than everyone else.
My company (a giant company that purveys giant software to giant customers) and my customers have a never-ending thirst for technical candidates who can speak and write good English, in a way that someone who barely passed TOEFL would not be able to handle.
The question is not about how "those damn foreigners" are taking jobs away from "us". It's about how we can re-tool ourselves to consistently stay ahead and take advantage of our own unique abilities.
Think about it, a good programmer isn't just writing code, he or she is also writing specs, writing documentation, and presenting the same. With good communication skills borne of many additional years communicating in English, a domestic candidate has a natural advantage over a foreign candidate. Plus, as people advance in their career and become either engineering managers or architects, what do you think they do more of? Communicating or solo coding?
The irony is that what I see happen a lot is that the foreign colleague is far more eager to take on what might seem as a less desirable job. Nobody really likes to write 50 pages of specs today, even if they know that it's the specs and the author by-line on those specs that will get spread throughout the organization and live on for years, whereas code only gets unburied from source control where there's a bug. A person's brilliance is demonstrated in their English, less so in their C or Java. Somehow, even though everyone sees this, many people willingly give away this opportunity to a few who are eager for it. And it seems that those who should have a natural advantage, inexplicably, more often give away their edge to those who are less suited, but are hungrier and more eager.
The University of Bridgeport is pretty much run by the Unification Church and its leader, Sun Myung Moon. For years now they have heavily recruited international members of the church to come to the United States and attend the University.
The Unification Church uses the University as a means of extending their empire further into the United States and the extended visa program works exceptionally well for this. I'm not one to say if this is a good or bad thing.
Sapere aude!
Is a $76K/year salary in 2009 for the average engineering school computer science undergraduate (up from $72K in 2008, despite the downturn, according to http://www.engineering.cornell.edu/student-services/engineering-coop-career-services/statistics/upload/2009-CS-PGR.pdf) really pissing your money away?
Cornell, Princeton, Columbia, Harvard, University of Pennsylvania, and Brown are all top 20 for Comp Sci.
And even then, the real difference is probably going to be that most of them will be paying US income tax instead of Indian / Chinese income tax.
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
I'm more interested in why U.S. citizens are consistently found unqualified. And why, in that scenario, we watch as citizens go jobless and even legal visa holders get those jobs.
Where I'm working, the workforce is changing from fairly well split between U.S. citizens and Indian nationals to a three way mix between citizens, Indians, and Asians. I'm not sure how that is happening. I also see various silos of technical work in many regions, on every continent except Africa and Antarctica. Every continent. Oh, with the notable exception of Europe, where it seems we do precious little development work. Hmm...
If I had to guess, I think current work allocations are favoring nations where the workers get little protection (Australia, for example has some interesting laws, while Chile doesn't) or the workers have already done the onshore shuffle and rotated back 'home'. Oh, and I dare not start asking about the visa status of some of these workers. It's a sensitive subject. Many will just get up and walk away.
It's frustrating to see what is clearly basic, everyday work going to visa holders when you know someone who is truly overqualified, but couldn't get past the first interview. As far as I can tell, pay is not the issue.
But I'm hypersensitive to this. I may be wrong about a lot if what I think, but I'm not yet convinced.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
While foreign IT workers come cheap, I don't think that is the biggest draw.
They are deportable indentured servants, who are dependent on their sponsoring companies for their right to pursue a visa and remain in the US. Companies like employees who will put up with anything, and not complain. I doubt that they have the same labor rights as citizens, and even where they do, are they going to try to enforce them against their sponsor? And how would they go about enforcing any rights they actually have after they've lost their right to live and work in the US?
Importing labor doesn't just import a worker, it imports entirely new labor rules.
But more importantly, don't think of a corporation and treat it like it is one entity with integrated goals.
Sub contracting firms provide one big advantage - huge opportunities for kickbacks and corruption. If your company hires individual citizens, it's unlikely that kickbacks are paid, and they're certainly difficult to concentrate. Sure, friends, family, and former coworkers get hired, but that is more an issue of limiting risk through trust and knowledge. But if you subcontract a dozen positions to a head shop, the relationship with the headshop is now associated with a continuing revenue stream that is worth a good chunk of change, and those who make the decisions about the relationship with the head shop have concentrated power over that revenue stream.
So if you're a crook and in a position of power to make the decision, do you want to hire a bunch of random citizens, or do you want to have a relationship with a head shop where a fat revenue stream is entirely dependent on your decisions of which head shop to choose?
It's not the ones who are the best who are the problem. Maybe 1% of the H-1Bs are among the best. The other 99% are code monkeys who went to the local equivalent of a tech school, know barely enough Java or whatever to get by, and have resumes "enhanced" by agencies who specialize in such things (because their qualifications are foreign, they are unlikely to be verified by a US company). This has all sorts of bad effects, including cutting off the bottom rungs of the ladder for American grads. Why hire an unproven new grad from a non-top-10 school when for the same price or cheaper, you can get an H-1B with "5 years experience" in anything you like?
Adds up to 20,000 requests, though.
A lot of us didn't have the opportunity to dream of going to such schools due to not being able to afford it. You have to make a hell of a lot of money to afford to go to those schools, or pray for financial aid. Sure there's beginning to be a thing about not leaving graduates with debts, but for a lot of people it's not something that we're realistically able to expect.
In my experience, admittedly not at an ivy league or even private school, scholarships are horribly biased upon who you are and what you're wanting to do. Unfortunately, it matters a lot what your color is and what groups you're affiliated with. It shouldn't matter, but it does, and there's no good way of predicting what sorts of scholarships are going to be available.
But, at the end of the day, I went to a state school here for a fraction of what the Ivy League cost, and the only thing they've got that I don't is connections. Is that really the same thing as a quality education? Of course not, but a quality education doesn't get you much if you don't have the connections to get the interview.
I don't think there is a single qualified and skilled American who is unemployed in sectors where H1Bs are applicable.
You clearly do not know what you are posting about. I could introduce you to a woman who has twice had to train her H1B replacement, even though nobody denied that she was doing a good job. Now, she is unemployed again because her entire department was offshored - which is the end game to all this H1B non-sense.
And in case you have not heard, US tech workers were laid off by the hundreds of thousands in 2009. Practically every major tech employer laid off thousands of US workers. And the USA is suffering it's worse unemployment since the great depression.
There is a *constant* shortage of good people.
I'm sorry, but the only explanation is that you don't want to pay enough. The idea of a *constant* shortage makes no sense. It defies the basic laws of economics.
If there was a real shortages, then wages would spike up sharply (which has not happened since 1999 btw), that would attract more people to field, and everything would normalize.
I doubt it, in my experience, motivation isn't just a matter of ones own interest. It takes a bit of arrogance to expect something to come of it. Ever wonder why equally motivated folks living in the Ghetto don't get into the Ivy League with similar regularity? It's not because they're all morons or because they're lazy, it's because they don't have the luxury of applying their efforts to something as abstract as going to Harvard.
I think that's a point that a lot of the upper class and other folks that go to those schools fail to grasp. It's a luxury that a lot of folks don't have to spend that much time with nose stuck in a book doing homework.
Some of us had to settle for an equally good education at a state school that we could both get into and afford because we were too busy picking up the slack for our parents as kids.
And even I getting the degree at all have to acknowledge having it easier than some others, that didn't live to see 22 let alone 18 for their high school diploma.
So, let me see if I got this right: you're -against- allowing educated college graduates to stay in the US and perhaps immigrate because they're merely generic graduates not ivy league graduates?
US companies claim they need more H1Bs because the H1Bs are the "best and brightest." In fact, they use that very expression in practically propaganda article that they use to flood the pop-media. But, now it seems that the truth is: H1B's are just ordinary people, doing ordinary jobs - jobs that could be done by US STEM workers.
BTW: if the H1B nations are so full of geniuses, then why don't they have anything to show for it? Are why isn't the O-1 visa enough for the H1B hogs?
There are 75K openings on Dice right now. 20K over 2 years is a drop in a ocean.
There are 75k listings on Dice. Most of those are duplicates of the same job listed by 3 or 4 different head hunters. So you are talking more like 25k unique listings. Then you have to count out the listings that are in place specifically to meet the requirements that allow the company to hire foreign works, by creating unrealistic requirements. This ranges from asking for more experience than is possible (10 years experience with something that has only been around for five), or setting unnecessary requirements (Master Degree required for a job that can be accomplished by a high school drop out).
Now I don't know the actual numbers, but if you take the time you will find out that your short analysis is certainly far from accurate, or even useful.
There's some truth in what you say, but it isn't at all the whole story, at least not where I've worked. Probably there are regional differences.
I agree that immigration isn't the real problem, and certainly the immigrants aren't to blame in any case.
I graduated from a decent school twenty years ago with an engineering degree, high grades, and a strong work ethic. I was never able to get so much as an interview at a company like Intel. The people who I know who got in all had some kind of nepotist connection, except for one guy who eventually snuck in via technical support and got an engineering job later. I was never given a chance. Its true that you probably wouldn't be able to hire me, because my skills are probably not exactly in the area you need. Everything is so highly specialized now. But companies are short sighted, and managers put their own needs before the needs of the larger organization. I know I could have been much more effective than a great many of the people they wound up with.
It's gutting engineering and science in general, not just IT.
Probably just being used for the cash flow. The nifty thing, from these for-profit "tech universities" point of view, is that now all the student loans are guaranteed by the government (meaning the taxpayers) so their profits are assured even if the student is a complete loser... and they cater to losers in the first place (you pretty much can't get turned down, so long as your loan goes through). BTW this is straight from a friend who works as a recruiter at one of these "tech universities". Interestingly, the tuition is about four times higher than the equivalent courses would cost at the nearby state university.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
I worked my butt off and I got into all three Ivy League schools I applied to, but I didn't get a good enough scholarship to be able to afford going to any of them. I did get a very large scholarship to go to a lesser known school, which is where I went due directly to the financial issues. While I was never "poor" growing up, my parents and I certainly couldn't afford the $30,000+ a year over scholarship awards that it would have cost to go to the Ivy schools.
That said, I have no idea how my life would be if I hadn't gone where I did... I, for the most part, enjoy my job, which is something a lot of people do not get to say. While I would probably be making a lot more money, would already own a house, etc., etc., I am pretty content with how things turned out so far.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
We don't need a large population with high intelligence and skills to have explosive productivity. You need just a few Wright Brothers' bike shops updated to the modern era. We've replaced those Yeomen during the last half of the twentieth century and it would be relatively easy to get them back were it not for the maldistribution of capital.
With an NPV of US citizenship of approximately $225k, 40 years of immigration liberalization against the will of the majority diluting that value with 48M immigrants to date and Reagan tax cuts approximately $300G/year for the last 30 years and a risk free interest rate of about 3%, there has been a total value of $35T transferred from the middle and upper middle class to the wealthy, their managerial elites and immigrant bioweaponry during the years of boomer fertility.
Clearly these immigrants are from cultures that are a lot more adapted to centralization of wealth and power in corrupt elites, so they not only fit right in with the manifest direction of the US in the last half of the 20th century:
More insideously, these immigrants are better adapted to such a pathological environment so they actively encourage the trend.
Now, let me ask you one question:
If that much wealth has been stolen by the upper class, why should we expect the economy to have a consumer base at all?
The principle victims of this were the mid to late boomers, as early boomers (Bush, Gore, Clinton, etc.) got to ride the demographic wave providing them real estate appreciation and managerial upward mobility. There are also the children of the boomers who were victims. Assuming a 1.6 total fertility rate among the boomer females, we have approximately 125M citizen creditors due that $35T for the breach of the social contract commencing with the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. If paid down over a period about as long as it took to run up that social debt, each citizen creditor is due an annuity of $13,000 or about $1100/month.
That wouldn't restore the entire consumer base immediately but it would allow for trickle up to start creating wealth in the quantity required to finance the government.
Its pretty obvious to me that the energy, environment and productivity problems could be solved except for the maldistribution of capital -- and that the de facto goal of continuing this situation is a die off that preserves the managerial elite that benefitted most from the breach of the social contract against those born subsequent to 1950.
The primary question before us is: How can the death burden be shifted to be more equitable?
Seastead this.
OK executive, do your foreign nationals get paid as much as your US nationals?
Yes or no? Don't equivocate.
Going to an Ivy League school doesn't necessarily mean you're smarter; it just means your parents have a lot of money.
Or very little money.
My point was primarily that the Ivy league is seriously overrated, especially the sort of premiere Ivy league schools which everyone associates as being Ivy league schools(Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Brown, etc). The big two Harvard and Yale in particular are astoundingly poor for certain kinds of degrees. Their admission criteria also reflect this.
I may have overstated my case somewhat, but my point still stands. If you want to get a top notch Engineering or Computer Science degree, there are a number of schools which are substantially better than most of the Ivy League schools including some public schools.
Yes you're right, Cornell has a good department(I confess I'd forgotten Cornell was even considered an Ivy school), and Princeton appears to be reasonable. However if you look at this list, you'll see that 10 public universities outrank Harvard and Columbia, and three outrank Princeton.
Given how high the tuition for places like Harvard are, and how extreme the admission criteria. They just don't seem to be worth it for this kind of degree. I got my CS undergrad at UW-Madison, and my tuition for all 4 years was less than a single year at Harvard, and it was a hell of a lot easier to get into.
If you're going to jump through hoops to get into an extremely prestigious private school you'd do better with CMU, MIT, or Stanford.
I'm not an expert on the natural sciences, but I stand by the fact that going to an Ivy for CS is pissing your money away. If you're looking for an expensive private school there are better ones, and there are plenty of top tier public universities which won't require you to give up every single second of your life during high school to get in.
The Ivy League is great for some things, but at that kind of money and time invested just to get in, I just really don't see them being a contender for comp sci degrees.
We went to Disney in Florida a couple of years ago, and as an experiment, I tried to buy an American made product/toy for my daughter inside the parks. I just couldn't do it. Cheap seems to be the focus of corporate America.
How about the ticket? You are aware that Disney is an American company? So you bought an American product the moment you entered. How about the food? The drinks?
The rides themselves? The movies the rides are based on?
Sorry, but next time try a bit harder. For instance, go into an Apple store and try to buy a product build in the US. A lot harder. But you just have to buy non-Apple to get a piece of hardware not made in a dictatorship. But that would mean giving up the shiny. Oh and if you dislike Disney for outsourcing its toy production, don't buy Disney. There are still locally made toys. Even handmade ones. Cost a bit more but that shouldn't be a problem. Unless you are focused on cheap as well.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
But you're still hiring the cheapest you can find. Given you have two candidates of equal qualifications (more or less; no one's exactly the same), you'll still hire the one who'll accept the least money.
[John]
Shit better not happen!
I'm sorry, but the only explanation is that you don't want to pay enough. The idea of a *constant* shortage makes no sense. It defies the basic laws of economics.
Ever crossed your mind that the number of people who have certain level of talent and skill level are limited? Your so called laws of economics would say that if I were willing to pay $1M salary for a certain position, there'd be thousands of qualified individuals lining out there waiting to be interviewed, even if in fact there are only a handful of them out there in the real world.
Don't quote me on this.
OK executive, do your foreign nationals get paid as much as your US nationals?
Yes or no? Don't equivocate.
I'm not the original poster, but I've been involved in many hiring decisions. In every case we have picked out the candidate we wanted, and then figured out the details of the offer. That's not to say that someone can't price themselves out of the position, but the distinction between one candidate that wants 85K and one that wants 90K won't affect our hiring decision.
And foreign nationals do get paid as much as US nationals.
The problem I have with the Democrats is that they don't even try.
Learn to love Alaska