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CA Sues Over DB2 Migration Tool
aesoteric writes "Software giant CA has filed suit against an Australian software developer over a program that allegedly enabled companies to migrate off CA database platforms onto IBM DB2. It claimed the software 'reproduced' portions of confidential source and object codes without permission and deprived CA of license fees. CA also disputed claims that its database platform was 'dying.'"
This reeks of desperation...
...or are they just undead?
There was always an unsavoury whiff from their stuff.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
So the article itself is /.'ed, but using Google, I can't seem to figure out what database CA has that everyone is theoretically migrating off of. I knew CA had a lot of products, mostly related to the mainframe, but an actual honest-to-goodness "select * from table" database? News to me.
So now we have lock-in as a respected business practice? What is next? Making it illegal for your users to even look at products of your competitors?
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
... is that almost all of these big software companies step on each others toes in the pursuit of profits and market share, and probably all infringe on each patents at some level or other.
If the weight of these patents were different (as in, if the patent system wasn't out of touch with modern applications of software and technology), they wouldn't have so much leverage over each other, and maybe we could get back to innovating instead of litigating.
Boo hoo CA, I have no sympathy what so ever. Perhaps develop a modern replacement and stop punishing your customers because your db products are comparable with a 1970s bus.
Those who can, do. Those who cannot, sue.
This has been a cornerstone of CA strategy for decades, nothing new here. Makes for a predictable renewal revenue stream.
I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
Databases aren't exactly my thing, but if I was looking in to a database solution, I don't think CA is someone who would come to mind.
Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
They're still around? The first company I worked for in the 80's was a HUGE Clipper shop. There were C Libraries to read DBase III libraries back then, it was a pretty simple format, really. Not that it was really ever all that difficult to write a DBase III program to dump the entire database comma separated. I often wish Linux and GTK had been about 10 years more advanced back then. I wouldn't have had to get involved with SCO at all, and we could have written some MUCH cooler applications. Not to mention that using a database like MySQL or Postgres would have made our applications far more robust than Clipper ever could have been!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
"There was always an unsavoury whiff from their stuff." - by AliasMarlowe (1042386) on Friday November 26, @09:47AM (#34349872)
CA's disreputable - See their "ethics" in accounting practices which they got busted for:
PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:
"Customers know Computer Associates - and, these days, for all the wrong reasons. Just as the company was beginning to shed its reputation as a home for legacy software products that carried an inflated price tag, it was rocked by a series of accounting scandals. An on-going FBI fraud inquiry and investigations by the US Department of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission have left it reeling, with a power vacuum at the top as over a dozen senior executives have left or been sacked. The allegations centre on internal accounting and sales activities in the years around the turn of the century, and involve the movement of revenues between quarters and product areas, and consequently, the mis-statement of financial results."
FROM -> http://www.information-age.com/articles/290656/the-information-age-interview.thtml
APK
P.S.=> CA also listed a freeware of mine as a "malware" which was written to help out a fellow forums person I knew at NTCompatible years ago, because he had an OLD version of Apache server on Windows which would not run as a tooltray icon while minimized & it was not implemented as a service he told me (that was so it was not visible onscreen and ran "in the background transparently" which most webservers now, do).
So, in good faith/being a "good neighbor", I wrote it up for he (it's NOT commandline argv/argc parameterizeable either, so it's NOT scriptable) in GUI form (only 2-3 lines of code & works via C/C++ type invisible "spawn" type parameterizations).
Next thing I know? It's out online being classed as a "malware" (1 of around 40 freeware apps I've done over time that did VERY well & were featured in respected publications in good reviews in reputable & respected publications like "Windows IT Pro" Magazine (it was Windows NT Mag back then in the 1990's - early 21st century) & others of like ilk).
Apps that can be used "both ways" get 'victimized' this way (which is like PING via "ping of death", or tools from NIRSOFT (good stuff) &/or SysInternals even (yes, even Dr. Mark Russinovich has had this happen to he (e.g. pstools) as it has myself & Nir Sofer of NIRSOFT) have tools that can be used "for the good" or "the bad", depending on WHO is using them & what they're up to (like a gun, guns don't murder people - other people do).
So, then I took CA's 21 point removal test & passed EVERY SINGLE QUESTION without fail no less, & they would not remove it (but, they had to put it down to "Zero Threat Levels")... I did that on the advice of an attorney (John Lowe of Hiscock & Barclay).
Afterwards when I told the attorney these results, he told me "Yes, you have a WINNING CASE for libel/defamation of character" etc. "and it's worth approx. $150,000 U.S. Dollars", so I said "Well, let's do it then on a 33.3% of the take for you as payment" (keeps attorneys 'motivated' doing it that way, plus, it's no init. money down for retainers etc./et al).
Then, he replied "I can't do this case!" I was like "WHY?!?" & he said "Because larger companies have fleets of attorneys that will 'drag it out' for over a decade and by the time you collect, which you would? The overall COST of doing this would exceed your reward!"...
This is how the REAL world works, if you're not a "Financial Goliath" in other words - there is NO "justice", only money (and if you've got enough to take on the likes of these companies, then, & ONLY THEN, do you get real justice)... makes me ill, because the likes of CA know this, & abuse it! apk
I assume CA's database is some mainframe beast. Since DB2 also runs on the mainframe and is almost certainly a more modern database, I can see why customers would switch - especially given CA's "think of a number, add the salesman's telephone number and double it" approach to license costs.
Mainframe "databases" can be funny beasts. I worked on an app that used one about 15 years ago, and the database was effectively flat files, index files and an engine on top to hang it all together and make it look like a RDBMS - pretty much the MySQL approach when you use ISAM as the storage backend. I can't recall the name but it's probably owned by CA now - they seem to buy up a lot of smaller players in the mainframe world.
Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
Not widely used, but it's been around for a while.
Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
Quick, somebody get confirmation from Netcraft.
From the ca site (http://www.ca.com/us/products/overview.aspx?id={40FB2A1D-9B09-429E-9D52-123477B87E97}):
It is a high-performance, multi-user relational database management system based on z/OS and VSE host platforms.
Unfortunately, although clients can access it from any platform, it's not available for anything else.
I suspect that a lot of those shops probably bought it when that was more or less expected. I know that I used to buy software without considering what file formats were involved. Now, I think about that and if it's something which could possibly be useful beyond that application I don't buy without a viable export feature.
Main exception being games which wouldn't really make any sense to export.
First one on Google is just the name, but 2nd is "computer associates removal tool". Makes you wonder why.....
No it's not. It is California, somewhere near Ontario.
WTF really? I am into Database knitting business for long long time (17 years). Never heard of Computer Associates Database product. Okay, I've not RTFA.
Whoa! I find out in the same paragraph that not only does CA have a database platform but suddenly it is worthy of intellectual property protection mechanisms. Why have I not heard of this yet? It must be awesome for them to have kept it secret all this time.
The two products are CA-Datacom/DB from Computer Associates and 2BDB2 from ISI.
CA-Datacom was originally developed ADR (Applied Data Research) in the 1980's. It's an inverted-index style database, a design approach which was popular before the SQL model came to dominate DBMS design. CA may claim that Datacom is not dying, but they will be unable to point to a new customer signed in the last 15 years. Pretty much every site which has Datacom installed also has DB2. Having critical data spread across multiple DBMS's is a significant problem, so they want to consolidate to a single DBMS (and it isn't going to be Datacom). CA has been milking Datacom for it's flow of license fees for years. They provide support and keep Datacom working with new releases of z/OS, but otherwise feature growth has been minimal. For instance, CA has failed to develop similar functionality to 2BDB2.
2BDB2 is a transparency layer which simulates Datacom/DB on top of DB2. This allows applications which have been developed for Datacom/DB to actually access DB2, with 2BDB2 translating program calls to Datacom/DB into SQL requests to DB2 and passing the results back. The Datacom/DB app does not have to changed or recompiled (a major advantage as retesting mainframe code is very expensive). 2BDB2 also provides a similar transparency layer for VSAM files.
The litigation between CA and ISI has be running for some years. It started after ISI sold 2BDB2 to some large sites, in particular US Customs (which was the largest Datacom/DB user, and I presume, paid the largest license fees). This dispute is all about screwing the customer so as to continue to receive the cash flow.
Ummm ... since when??? If you need to process data in industrial quantities, DB2 on the mainframe is an excellent solution. The big advantage of the mainframe version of DB2 has been data sharing (think Oracle RAC on steroids). This technology has recently been extended to Wintel, Linux and Power environments. DB2 is being actively developed, with new features which redefine the cutting edge.
MySQL is a great database which can be used to solve some amazing large problems (look at Wikipedia). However, it has some major limitations. It is great for powering web sites which only need SELECT's and INSERT's. It has no warehouse or BI features at all. Most large commercial DB problems are difficult to solve with MySQL.
They have to prove the code was made from their code, how can they do this, unless they have access to this code, most others reverse engineer the stuff, why this case only where they think it impossible to do this???
CA is where terminal software goes to die
The business model is:
1) Buy products that are circling the drain
2) Flog said products to the clueless
3) Promise a big party at CA World
4) PROFIT!!!
We have assloads of CA shiteware, our clueless managers just love going to CA World every year. Last year's keynote was that Avatar guy, w00t!
-- How I want a drink, alcoholic of course, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.
You've never heard of Ingres? They owned it for a while until selling it on.
You'd be surprised at the software which is acquired by large multi-national corps, Oracle being a prime example of "oh what the fuck, they own that?" syndrome.
I've used their ERWin product which seems pretty good but they have an actual database?!?!?!
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Yep. Congrats on posting your cool story a half dozen times. I hope CA continues raping your corpse.
hrock" is who did that submittal to they I strongly suspect, because I found posts of his on CA's malware forums, AND, I also wrote he and he kept addressing me by my MIDDLE name + last name, rather than my first name - which IS how CA listed it (this is actually online too, in a blog of his).
I asked Thor SCHMUCK why isn't Spybot "Search & Destroy" also listed? It alters a HOSTS file, which violates CA's malware removal list test (albeit Spybot S&D alters HOSTS in a GOOD way vs. known malware laden sites). Why not PING?? It can/could issue a "ping of death"!
Thor SCHMUCK went 'silent' after that (which also shows he is NO "expert" by any stretch of the imagination).
Apps that can be used "both ways" get 'victimized' this way (which is like PING via "ping of death", or tools from NIRSOFT (good stuff) &/or SysInternals even (yes, even Dr. Mark Russinovich has had this happen to he (e.g. pstools) as it has myself & Nir Sofer of NIRSOFT) have tools that can be used "for the good" or "the bad", depending on WHO is using them & what they're up to (like a gun, guns don't murder people - other people do).
So, then I took CA's 21 point removal test & passed EVERY SINGLE QUESTION without fail no less, & they would not remove it (but, they had to put it down to "Zero Threat Levels")... I did that on the advice of an attorney (John Lowe of Hiscock & Barclay).
Afterwards when I told the attorney these results, he told me "Yes, you have a WINNING CASE for libel/defamation of character" etc. "and it's worth approx. $150,000 U.S. Dollars", so I said "Well, let
Read the rest of this comment...
Reply to This Parent
CA cronies "down modding" me now? Ok... apk (Score:-1, Offtopic)
by Anonymous Coward on Fri November 26, 11:07 (#34350900)
Per my subject-line above, let's use the words of a respected other (Mr. Bruce Perens) to show more of how BIG MONEY OPERATES, albeit online:
"I have been offered the online-perception-management services I'm talking about while managing at HP and Sourcelabs. If you are not aware of companys concern for their online perception and what they do about it, and won't take my word for it, there isn't much point in arguing about it with you." - by Bruce Perens (3872)
on Friday July 30, @09:27PM (#33092398) Homepage Journal
FROM -> http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1738364&cid=33092398 [slashdot.org]
Does whoever is downmodding me *THINK* they're fooling anyone here? If the above quote's NOT enough?? Here's more along those lines & from the same very respected fellow in the *NIX & Open Source world on that same account & as to "how things are done" by "BIG MONEY" to try to snow others & cover up their bullshit while they try to mess with others & from that very same exchange:
"It just takes one Ubuntu sympathizer or PR flack to minus-moderate any comment. Unfortunately, once PR agencies and so on started paying people to moderate online communities, and to have hundreds of accounts each, things changed." - by Bruce Perens (3872) on Friday July 30, @03:55PM (#33089192) Homepage Journal
FROM -> http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1738364&cid=33089192 [slashdot.org]
APK
P.S.=> He's only sho
des without permission and deprived CA of license fees. CA also disputed claims that its database platform was 'dying.'"
business court database lawsuit news story
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Getting desperate, are we? (Score:1) ...or are they just undead?
by furbyhater (969847)
Alter Relationship
on Fri November 26, 8:42 (#34349840)
This reeks of desperation...
Reply to This
Is CA still alive??? (Score:2)
by AliasMarlowe (1042386)
Alter Relationship
on Fri November 26, 8:47 (#34349872) Journal
There was always an unsavoury whiff from their stuff.
Reply to This Parent
CA's disreputable (acc'ting scandal) (Score:5, Interesting)
by Anonymous Coward on Fri November 26, 9:13 (#34350102)
"There was always an unsavoury whiff from their stuff." - by AliasMarlowe (1042386) on Friday November 26, @09:47AM (#34349872)
CA's disreputable - See their "ethics" in accounting practices which they got busted for:
PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:
"Customers know Computer Associates - and, these days, for all the wrong reasons. Just as the company was beginning to shed its reputation as a home for legacy software products that carried an inflated price tag, it was rocked by a series of accounting scandals. An on-going FBI fraud inquiry and investigations by the US Department of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission have left it reeling, with a power vacuum at the top as over a dozen senior executives have left or been sacked. The allega
Reply to This Parent
CA's db is dying? (Score:2)
by LaminatorX (410794)
Alter Relationship
on Fri November 26, 9:16 (#34350124) Homepage
Quick, somebody get confirmation from Netcraft.
--
"The most merciful quality of the human mind is its inability to correlate its contents" --HPL
Reply to This
Runs only on big hardware (Score:2, Informative)
by sbates (1832606)
Alter Relationship
on Fri November 26, 9:18 (#34350132)
From the ca site (http://www.ca.com/us/products/overview.aspx?id={40FB2A1D-9B09-429E-9D52-123477B87E97}):
It is a high-performance, multi-user relational database management system based on z/OS and VSE host platforms.
Unfortunately, although clients can access it from any platform, it's not available for anything else.
Reply to This
Second most popular CA search (Score:3, Insightful)
by echucker (570962)
Alter Relationship
on Fri November 26, 9:24 (#34350190) Homepage
First one on Google is just the name, but 2nd is "computer associates removal tool". Makes you wonder why.....
Reply to This
Don't wonder why (CA=disreputable, see inside) (Score:-1, Redundant)
by Anonymous Coward on Fri November 26, 10:20 (#34350586)
CA's disreputable - See their "ethics" in accounting practices which they got busted for:
PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:
"Customers know Computer Associates - and, these days, for all the wrong reasons. Just as the company was beginning to shed its reputation as a home for legacy software products that carried an inflated price tag, it was rocked by a series of accounting scandals. An on-going FBI fraud inquiry and investigations by the US Department of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission have left it reeling, with a power vacuum at the top as over a dozen senior executives have left or been sacked. The allegations centre on internal accounting and sales activities in the years around the turn of the century, and involve the movement of revenues between quarters and product areas, and consequently, the mis-statement of financial results."
FROM -> http://www.information-age.com/articles/290656/the-information-age-interview.thtml [information-age.com]
(Read on below, it only gets better, as to how CA really "operates"...)
APK
P.S.=> CA also listed a freeware of mine as a "malware" which was written to help out a fellow forums person I knew at NTCompatible years ago, because he had an OLD version of Apache server on Windows which would not run as a tooltray icon while minimized & it was not implemented as a service he told me (that was so it was not visible onscreen and ran "in the background transparently" which most webservers now, do).
So, in good faith/being a "good neighbor", I wrote it up for he (it's NOT commandline argv/argc parameterizeable either, so it's NOT scriptable) in GUI form (only 2-3 lines of code & works via C/C++ type invisible "spawn" type parameterizations).
Next thing I know? My app's listed out online being classed as a "malware" @ CA's websites!
It's only 1 of around 40 freeware apps I've done over time that did VERY well & were featured in respected publications in good reviews in reputable & respected publications like "Windows IT Pro" Magazine (it was Windows NT Mag back then in the 1990's - early 21st century) & others of like ilk. It was also listed under my MIDDLE + LAST NAME, rather than my 1st name + last name (etc.), doubtless so I would NEVER find it most likely (but, I did).
A fool named "Thor Schrock" is who did that submittal to they I strongly suspect, because I found posts of his on CA's malware forums, AND, I also wrote he and he kept addressing me by my MIDDLE name + last name, rather than my first name - which IS how CA listed it (this is actually online too, in a blog of his).
I asked Thor SCHMUCK why isn't Spybot "Search & Destroy" also listed? It alters a
Friends of mine were working for Ingres when CA bought them in the mid 90s. If you didn't get laid off or quit, you could only keep your job by signing some ridiculously pro-CA hiring agreement. Lots of bitterness and classic software-industry war stories ensued, like the 15 people on the "really try to keep these critical engineers" list all walking in to HR together to quit, and the general opinion was "Friends don't let CA buy their friends."
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
No... Ontario is *in* California. It's near Riverside.
(I was also momentarily confused as to why California was suing.)