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Protect Your Pre-1997 IP Address
CWmike writes "With IPv4 space running out any day now, is your legacy IP address space safe? Marc Lindsey writes that if your company obtained its IP address space before 1997, you have probably received several letters from the American Registry for Internet Numbers encouraging you to enter into a contractual agreement to protect the IP address. But should you sign it? Be careful — there are several issues you should consider before signing up for this, writes Lindsey, who offers a deeper look at the issue."
Save some time, 4 pages is silly given the content.
Printable Version.
There is nothing special about IPv4. Upgrade your systems to IPv6 already, folks. It's been around for what? 10 years now? Give me a break.
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
... Where IANA is the king and owns all of the IP space... granting it to its dukes (RIRs).. who in-turn grant plots to the earls (ISPs) .... who inturn grant blocks to everybody else...
Any and all content posted above may be ignored, considered irrelevant, or otherwise dismissed.
The status of IP addresses as "property" has been the subject of considerable policy debate in the industry and remains an unresolved legal question.
Maybe, with the right argument, we could turn routing tables into property rights! That way there is a clear and legal manner for an organization to ... pay lawyers money to fight over a number.
In 1997 I was 6000 miles from the US. If I still lived down there and still had that IP address then the American Registry of Internet Numbers wouldn't have any jurisdiction.
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, let's just move to IPv6 already.
Yes, there will be a cost associated with it. Most things that will bring true value do cost something. It's called an investment, and moving to IPv6 would be an excellent one to make.
America could have been a leader here. America could've used the early adoption of IPv6 to bring strategic and economic benefits. But these days, our business leaders are too short-sighted to make good investments. When all that matters is next quarter's results, solid investments will be totally ignored.
It's likely that Europe and Asia will be making widespread use of IPv6 far before America ever will. The business cultures there encourage longer-term thinking, where it's recognized that some short-term costs can lead to huge benefits over the long term.
And we could just ignore this whole issue by switching over...
Why would it matter if you have the same IP address you've had for several years? Whats wrong with switching to a different one?
"To prevent this day from getting any worse, I'll just read ERROR as GOOD THING" 1GJU8xLuDKDxEs4KLf8fAGyptoDsqvEsBT
There are plenty of pieces of hardware that dont support IPv4. Unless you upgrade the hardware to a dual stack configuration. Routers, switches, etc arnt cheap.
Just because the OS supports it, doesnt mean its going to be easy or cheap.
So, fast is not out of the question? ;)
Home of The Suki Series
We are an Internet IP address registry in China. We have received information from a local company RANDOM PRODUCT PTY INC that they want to register the following
IP addresses that are similar to yours:
214.124.23.45
214.123.32.45
215.124.23.45
Please contact us urgently if you do not wish us to allow this registration.
So, where does the letter go for all of those bankrupt companies? Silicon Valley post offices must have a large pile of undeliverable ones.
Maybe that's the final legacy of dead startups: their IPV4 address block is worth more than the company ever was.
I just checked. My 1994 class C is still allocated to me. I have no idea how to regain control over it though as every single contact detail, except my name, is outdated by 15 years.
It was never used on the public internet. But back then they said you should get one for your local lan. This was before everyone started doing 192.168.x.y. So I applied for a class C and got it.
Even if I did manage to get RIPE to correct the contact details, I do not know any ISP who would advertize it for me. So this class C is part of the dead IPv4 space that will probably never get used.
Call me crazy, but wasn't DNS invented to remove the significance of using IP addresses as a means of identification?
IPv4 addresses are a scarce property. And we know a mechanism which fits quite well for handling scarce properties: The free market.
I'm not at all someone who thinks the free market is the cure for everything, but this is a case which fits exactly the case for free market: Make IPv4 addresses the property of the individual holders, and allow them to buy and sell. If they get scarce, the price will grow, just as the price of land grows if land is scarce. And if the IP addresses show up as property in the balance sheets, a growing price means there's more incentive to move to IPv6, in order to sell those IPv4 addresses.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
They can pry 127.0.0.1 out of by cold, dead hands!
Have gnu, will travel.
I'm chief technical engineer for a large ISP in Europe. Posting anon because this need not be correlated to my employer.
We replace all network hardware every two years. Everything. Yes, you read that right, everything. Some equipment even sooner. Really.
It costs more to maintain the older hardware than buy new gear and get more energy efficiency, more connections per rack, more customers per square foot of data center.
If you really think a five year cycle is OK, then you're way, way behind the curve and your customers should really migrate to another service provider. Or you are in an area without competition perhaps.
Spend a bit of money to reap in the big bucks. And boy, do we reap in the bucks, you wouldn't believe it...
I'll give a hint. Think of a large ISP in Europe that has an net profit of over a billion per quarter. Google the guy responsible for infrastructure. Give me a call during local business hours.
I work at a university which is an ISP, as most universities are. We are still using Cisco 6500s from about 10 years ago, and will continue to use those 6500s for some time. They are actually upgrading a few of the core routers soon, but basically only because the central network guys want new toys to play with, the 6500s work fine. Despite the massive increase in campus bandwidth, those 6500s work just fine. We'd probably have to move to something bigger than 10gbit connections to buildings (which we are actually just moving to now) before they wouldn't.
Now the 6500s are flexible platforms, and you can buy new supervisors to do IPv6. We actually did this a couple years ago... At a cost of about $10,000,000. That is just to serve the 50,000ish users on campus. Also that is only the big core equipment. The edge equipment didn't have to be upgraded since it is all switched at that point.
This idea that ISPs just trash tons of high end equipment every year is stupid. High end stuff doesn't get replaced until it is necessary, and that can be a long, long time. If you want them to buy all new hardware yearly, well then be prepared for your bill to go way up.
Also, that isn't the only problem. IPv6 support is not good at all in the home. A lot of routers don't support IPv6. I bought a Linksys router/WAP about a year ago, one of the N ones even, no IPv6 support. So if my ISP went all v6 I'd have to rebuy it and you know people would be mad about that. Even computers are problematic. There's a lot of XP systems out there and it has no IPv6 support. Sure it can be installed, you really thing a non-technical user can handle that?
Before IPv6 is feasible we not only need more ISP upgrades, we need more upgrades at home. Also, we really aren't going to need a good 4-to-6 setup. We need some way in the home that old devices that don't support v6 and can't be upgraded can get a v4 address that can then be routed transparently through the connection's v6 address. If that exists, I've not seen it.
It is a complex issue, and hence not something that will get solved quickly. I don't think we'll really start seeing IPv6 adoption in a big way for several more years. Once device support is far more wide spread, and more network equipment has been upgraded, it'll be more feasible. Also, when IPv4 really DOES start to deplete, and by that I mean companies start to run out of addresses not just that the top level assignments are gone, then there'll be pressure to make it happen.
People forget that the "running out" that is spoken of isn't that all addresses will be gone. It is that all available high level blocks will be allocated to regional registrars. They will still have space to allocate, and even when they run out most ISPs will still have space to allocate. It is when the ISPs start running out, that is when we are ACTUALLY running out of IPv4 space in a meaningful way, and there'll be pressure to move to something larger.
Unless you personally own a root nameserver, you left out an important detail or two there.
Nobody finds you by name without the co-operation of the authorities. Nobody.
Those authorities would have to rewrite BGP from scratch to gain the same level of control over IP addresses.
I did not sign the paper. I plan to keep ownership of the IPs that Jon Postel personally gave me, and if I sign the paper I will have given up that ownership. Fuck that. As the level of authoritarianism and media control continues to ramp up, my property rights become more and more valuable. The Nazis want 'em? Either buy them or take them, I will never give them up willingly. I'm already using them, to the benefit of my fellow human beings.
Well, XP did come out over 9 years ago. It's not that surprising it didn't have good support (not much back then did). And by the time the core infrastructure is ready for IPv6, everyone will for the most part have switched to Windows 7, or at the least Vista. So I don't think XP is the core issue holding up the migration.
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
No, they aren't doing it just to make us mad, but they could be doing a whole lot more. ISPs are probably the biggest end buyers of consumer level wireless routers. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but they have to be a big chunk because so many consumers don't know how to set them up and therefore rent modems and wireless routers from the ISP. They have to be a relatively big bulk buyer. They could insist that no one gets the contract for new purchases unless they provide IPv6 capability on the home devices. That way the ISPs could upgrade all their renters, and they could tell everyone else that come such and such a date, they won't support non-IPv6 devices. And the ISPs could also negotiate a contract for massive bulk discounts on one or two varieties of home routers and sell them to consumers at cost, which would get the rest of their clients to upgrade. I mean, most people aren't going to completely panic over a one time cost of 30 bucks to replace their home router. It wouldn't be fun, but if you sell them on the idea with some good marketing about how it benfits them (like DTV did), you could probably get them on board.
And the better home routers already have IPv6 support, especially those that can run DDWRT, so those users that bought expensive dual band n routers probably wouldn't have to upgrade at all.
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
And just to pre-empt anyone who argues it is too difficult for a non-geek to flash DDWRT onto a home router, remember that all Buffalo routers come with DDWRT as the factory default firmware, so actually you don't have to flash anything to get a home router with DDWRT and IPv6.
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
That's much less true these days. Buffalo routers ship with DDWRT as the factory installed firmware, and that means they all support IPv6. I'm sure they aren't the only ones that do this. And at any rate, if ISPs would start renting out Buffalo routers to customers they would soon have IPv6 capable equipment on a lot of their networks.
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
IPv4 managers: "Hey, guys, first come first served, and there's little left. Start worrying!"
IP buyers: "AS IF!!! This affects the suckers coming in last place! My v4 internet won't just go poof! It's like the cockroach, the VGA port, the ball-mouse and the 4:3 TVs people got 10 years ago"
When IPv6 legislation worldwide exists to do onto IPv4 what in USA digital TV legislation did to our trusty analog TVs here, we'll see a real deadline. Speaking IPv6 is like speaking Esperanto: cool if you do, but not useful enough for profit next to de-facto languages.
Stuff like IPv6 non-support is what happens when the media fails to use the irrational madness they pushed behind our Y2K Apocalypse. "Banks will crash, MONEY will disappear" "Retirement benefit spreadsheets will fail, MONEY will disappear" and "Nukes will be launched ... reactors will melt down ... radioactivity will KILL; AND your MONEY won't be worth a thing in this apocalypse."
IMHBLO, the "upgrade" process is really a systemic institutionalized design for obsolescence built right into the entire 'technology' field. I've worked at some BIG names in "technology" for the last 20 years as we watched our economy change over to a technology based economy from a manufacturing economy. Granted, semiconductors are 'manufactured' but few can afford to build a Fab, especially in the U.S. Technology is a 'transition' industry. Where it leads I'm not sure of, but to have and allow (from day one) so many holes in that technology and the code that operates it indicates the industry has no intentions of "securing" it's "proprietary technology" or "code", maybe for ever but at least until it gets to the "final" solution, what ever that is.
This isn't an option for us. We qualified for address space under ARIN's old rules, and as such, we own a directly allocated IPv4 /24. The requirements for IPv6 space are higher, and we don't qualify for an allocation. If we give up our IPv4 /24 we get nothing for it, we'll be at the mercy of our ISP for address space, and that will make it impossible for me to add redundant uplinks later.
With this stuff in mind, I intend to defend my IPv4 allocation until such time as ARIN forcibly reclaims it.
[Bitter rant]
Fine; you pony-up the cash I'll need to R&R all the stuff in my network that still doesn't bother to support IPv6. And while you're at it, how about coughing-up some funds so I can just get basic maintenance done?
Go back to your Playstation, kid.
[/Bitter rant.]
Regards;
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2007/pulpit_20070810_002683.html As it turns out, we did pay for it.
Every time this discussion comes up, people fail to see the significance of IPv4 running out. It's 2010, and folks still get confused.
The significance is this: There are massive growth regions in the world that will only be able to purchase IPv6 addresses within the next year or two. And if you aren't playing the IPv6 game, then you're shutting you and your customers off from all those various markets that will open up in years to come.
There's only so much can be squeezed out of IPv4. But regardless of how much can be squeezed out of the existing space, the regional registries are likely to run out of /24's they can allocate within a year. See for a guesstimate: http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html That is, in 2012, much expansion in growth regions WILL be IPv6 only.
You're shooting yourself in the foot if you refuse to bring yourself up to date.
It's ridiculous that companies own more than a /24 (256 IP addresses) since they're not using it for public visibility. Even a web site can mask thousands of servers behind a single IP. If they have multiple sites, let them have a /24 per site. This business of letting companies use multiple /16 or /8 (that's 16.8 million IPs) for private networks is ridiculous.
People who say "just switch to IPv6" simply don't get it. The reason is that even after you "switch", you really haven't switched at all because you still have to have backward compatibility. So what's the point of adding IPv6 when you still have to fully support IPv4 to reach the remaining 99.9% of the Internet? At the end of the day, we're still going to run IPv4 for the next decade or more which is why nobody in the real world cares about IPv6. If it was truly a switch over, then fine. But nobody is fooled into believing it's anything but some type of dual-stack for the foreseeable future.
We would all be better off if we made more efficient use of IPv4. We'll have to do that anyway even if we do switch to IPv6 (which won't happen) because of the need for backward compatibility.
I like when they run out of IPv4 just start handing out IPv6 and let them worry about the upgrades. It'll fix itself.
It isn't just hardware that is the problem. Have a look at support forums for Windows Server 2008 R2 for example. The amount of problems there are at getting IPv6 working 'seamlessly' at every level and service in mixed network environment is a nightmare. The dual IPv4/IPv6 implementations for network interfaces and services are full of riddles and holes. No wonder even Microsoft's own engineers propose 'solutions' like "turn off IPv6". Well that is actually what every admin I know who has struggled with 2K8R2 has done. As long as you don't 'need' IPv6 for anything yet, why bother. There is enough other shit to shovel meanwhile - we'll deal with it when it comes.
www.tribalnetworks.org - helping tribal people around the world to own their own means of high-tech communications
I mean individual companies. An ISP should selling to multiple companies is different. Of course there would still be exceptions of an individual company needed more than 256 per site. My point is that most of these legacy companies are sitting on blocks of 65K or 16.8M addresses and they're using it as an internal IP scheme. That's the problem I have.
Google should just announce that in six months, some class of Google content will appear on IPv6 only. Start with "all new Youtube videos will be cut off at 5 minutes on IPv4, or will go full length on IPv6."
With that one move, every ISP in the world will be forced to finally, immediately do what they were supposed to already, and go IPv6.
Meanwhile consumers will demand IPv6 Routers. Those with routers upgradeable to DD-WRT can just do the firmware switch.
Router firms can do a massive IPv6 firmware rollout, and IP consultants will have a field day.
Let's get this done.
I wouldn't mind selling one of the Class C's I still have. I don't think I ever signed an agreement saying I wouldn't back in 1994 with the Nic. And honestly, I don't give a fuck what ARIN says, they can't revoke them without permission. If they contact me, I'm not granting it, and I have no wish to sign an agreement with them.
Yes, one of my class C's is still live, although now unrouted and behind NAT. (The other one is in a test lab, which isn't a huge deal to change)
Basically, ARIN, start seizing these at your own class-action peril.
What you all are tiring to say is .. well .. we're all screwed?
As with any finite resource, management strategies typically follow the course of more efficient use, bridge transition to a more plentiful resource, and finally adoption of the new resource.
IPv4 will be no different. Unused addresses or public addresses used on private equipment WILL BE reclaimed - albeit not without some nasty fights. Four to Six gateways and ISP NATs will stretch the resources a bit more. Finally, IPv6 will be gradually adopted at a pace that is not a financial shock to the big players.
Along the way, power brokers and power hoarders will try to exploit the situation for greater control of the internet or segments thereof.
As with any finite resource, management strategies typically follow the course of: more efficient use, bridge transition to a more plentiful resource, and gradual adoption of the new resource. There is nothing you can do to thwart or change that reality unless you have the charisma to foment a revolution or you're grotesquely rich and powerful.
IPv4 will be no different. Unused addresses or public addresses used on private equipment WILL BE reclaimed - albeit not without some nasty fights. Four to Six gateways and ISP NATs will stretch the resources a bit more. Finally, IPv6 will be gradually adopted at a pace that is not a financial shock to the big players.
Along the way, power brokers and power hoarders will try to exploit the situation for greater control of the internet or segments thereof.