EPA Knowingly Allowed Pesticide That Kills Bees

hether writes "The mystery of the disappearing bees has been baffling scientists for years and now we get another big piece in the puzzle. From Fast Company: 'A number of theories have popped up as to why the North American honey bee population has declined — electromagnetic radiation, malnutrition, and climate change have all been pinpointed. Now a leaked EPA document reveals that the agency allowed the widespread use of a bee-toxic pesticide, despite warnings from EPA scientists.' Now environmentalists and bee keepers are calling for an immediate ban of the pesticide clothianidin, sold by Bayer Crop Science under the brand name Poncho."

Comments

EP(what?)

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm and i thought the "P" stood for Protection, but clearly its something to do with Profits and or Pressure.... what a freakin sellout i bet they were pressured to allow more profits by the big agribusiness lobbyists... i guess agribusiness will be the first to cry foul when their crops no longer get fertilised....

Re:EP(what?)

[SirGeek]

If you really want to hurt them, Buy locally produced organic (from a REAL Organic farm). Join a CSA and get good local produce almost year round (one here in Mass goes from June through December, then they have a winter one that goes from Jan through the end of Mar).

Re:EP(what?)

[kestasjk]

Growers of organic food still use pesticides (if you try growing crops without any pesticides you'll realize why).

Re:EP(what?)

[allcar]

This is why leaks are a good thing.

Re:EP(what?)

[cvtan]

Organic farmers around here (upstate NY) absolutely do not use pesticides and the people I've talked to claim large losses in the 30-50% range due to pests and disease. I don't see how they make any money. I have tried growing vegetables for the past few years without pesticides and you get almost nothing. I have to say that the major loss is due to foraging animals (rabbits, birds, etc.), but something like acorn squash will be 90% taken out by beetles passing on a fatal bacterial infection. If I had to make a living growing produce "organically", I would starve.

Re:EP(what?)

[Anonymous Coward]

Growers of organic food still use pesticides (if you try growing crops without any pesticides you'll realize why).

Some organic growers use it. They use a lot less of it, and only specific chemicals (with little to no synthetic stuff):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_farming#Pesticides
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification

Re:EP(what?)

[mcgrew]

if you try growing crops without any pesticides you'll realize why

Bullshit. When my kids were growing up we lived ina small house with a huge back yard, and we turned most of that back yard into a garden. We grew corn, peas, tomatos, radishes, several kinds of peppers, beans, lettuce, cabbages, blackberries, and one or two others I can't think of right now.

Not once did we use any pesticides. We did lose some yield to insects, but we lost more to small mammals (rabbits and squirrels), and the only food we had to actually buy was meat, sugar, salt, flour, and yeast. There was one year we lost most of our cabbage to butterfly larvae, but it would have been lost to rabbits anyway.

We did use Miracle Grow fertilizer, but only when we didn't get enough rain; the crops didn't like the city's chlorinated water a bit.

The first year after we moved we grew tomatos, and lost 100% of the crop to pests -- two legged pests who would come in the middle of the night and steal any tomato that was near ripe.

Re:EP(what?)

[Grishnakh]

In addition, you can keep the insect infestation quite low by using chickens. Chickens love to eat insects, so if you corral them into the garden for a set amount of time per day, they'll keep the bugs out. Don't let them stay too long, though, or else they'll start eating the crops.

Re:Some Questions

[camperdave]

It could be that North American bees are also in contact with other chemicals or plants that Eurobees aren't. It may be the interaction with these and the clothianidin that are causing a different reaction on different continents... if there is a different reaction.

Re:Some Questions

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Most of your questions are answered in TFA, and those that aren't, are thoroughly covered in the linked PDF (except for the political ones.) The short version is that the stuff propagates very easily through the environment and is toxic to bees even in very low doses.

Re:Not like Slashdot

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Well, see, you can live in your little Randroid free-market fantasyland all you want. But when you start poisoning the land, air, and water we all have to share, the rest of us will organize to stop you. We will call this organization "the government." We will give this organization the power to fine you, imprison you, or even kill you if you refuse to mend your ways, and you can't stop us. There are more of us than there are of you, we're smarter, and we're better than you in every conceivable way.

Don't like it? Move to Somalia. There are a bunch of people there who have taken your ideology to its logical extreme. Let's see how long you last.

Re:Some Questions

[Cylix]

I don't know about this "science" stuff, but I thought I would get straight to the root of the issue. To this end, I found a nearby hibernating honey bee and I asked the little fellow what his thoughts were on the matter. At first I couldn't quite make out what he was saying (bee sized and all) so I held him close to my face. Do you know what the little guy told me? Kill everyone, make the rivers flow with their blood and fill the skies with their screams.

Surprisingly, this is exactly what the article said too.

Seed Enhancement

[Nonillion]

I work in seed enhancement, fortunately, I don't order clothianidin (Poncho) from Bayer Crop Science. However I do order Thiram, Captan and Allegiance (aka Apron FL) from Bayer. Most of these chemicals are used to control pythium, however I've always wondered if these were responsible for the bee hive die offs.

Re:Some Questions

[kamelkev]

> I'm not a fan of pesticides but I won't deny that they increase food and crop yield.

Prove it. I don't believe this whatsoever.

There has been a growing of evidence showing that the overuse of pesticides has led to a *decline* in crop yields, not an increase.

See:
http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_5995.cfm
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2007/June/04060701.asp

Unless you are familiar with changes in farming techniques over time it's very very hard to have a substantive position on this. Since about 1960-1970 there has been a *huuuge* increase in the use of nitrogen fertilizers that essentially parallels the use of pesticides. Sadly there was a limit to how much nitrogen fixation can actually take place in the presence of pesticides. Keep in mind that nitrogen is required for plants to grow, nitrogen fixation is required for plants to use nitrogen and... research has now shown that pesticides interferes with nitrogen fixation.

I'm not making a broad claim one way or another, but the government clearly isn't researching the things they should be.

Re:Some Questions

[jhoegl]

Curses.... foiled again by people who read.

Re:Some Questions

[mrmeval]

There was an article posted on /. a while back that showed a two pronged attack on the bees by I think a mite and a pathogen that caused the death of whole hives.

This sounds like some anti-pesticide religious fanatic trying to whip up hysteria while trying to make the FDA and the pesticide industry look bad.

The FDA screens pesticides for how they will be used, how mobile the pesticide is and how long the residue lasts. If this was not done then cry foul.

This is what I could find in a few minutes searching http://www.thefederalregister.com/d.p/2006-12-13-E6-20898 I have not found the application for use as a seed coating but Bayer would have needed to go through a process to get that approved by the EPA.

Ah, here is the fact sheet http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/factsheets/clothianidin.pdf

Endangered Species
Clothianidin is expected to present acute and/or chronic toxicity risk to endangered/threatened birds
and mammals via possible ingestion of treated corn and canola seeds. Endangered/threatened non-
target insects may be impacted via residue laden pollen and nectar. The potential use sites cover the
entire U.S. because corn is grown in almost all U.S. states. The registrant must provide information
on the proximity of Federally listed birds, mammals, and non-target insects to the proposed use sites.
This information may best be provided via the FIFRA Endangered Species Task Force, but may be
produced independently, providing the information is of sufficient quality to meet FIFRA and
Endangered Species Act requirements. The information will be used by the EPA to develop specific
recommendations to avoid adverse effects to listed species.

To address ecological concerns, labeling will be required that mandates treated seed bags be printed
with advisory language regarding hazards to wildlife and will include specific instructions to cover
or collect clothianidin treated seeds that are spilled during loading. In order to fully evaluate the
possibility of chronic exposure to honey bees, a complete worker bee life cycle study will be
required, as well as an evaluation of exposure and effects to the queen. Sediment toxicity testing
will be required to address the uncertainty of possible risk to communities of invertebrates and fish
that inhabit or come into contact with sediment from fields planted with treated seed.

One More Bush Era Screw Up

[Required Snark]

One more example of how Bush and his greedy incompetent Republican asshats have screwed everybody. This stuff is used because of a conditional waiver that was issued in 2003, against the scientific advices of the experts.

It's just like the BP Gulf oil spill and the coal mine explosion in West Virginia. There are systems in place to protect people and the environment, but when the Republicans gain control they stop all oversight. It takes five to fifteen years to see all the failures, and by then everyone forgets who turned over control to the crooks and lairs.

They just wave the flag, blame everything on the government bureaucrats and illegal aliens, scream about the war on terror, and then lie and deny when the shit hits the fan. I guess as long as these morons continue to lie and cheat their way into power we deserve to have poisoned gulf seafood and the end of flowering crops.

Don't worry, you can just consume more high fructose processed food and get diabetes. The corn/agribusiness lobby will continue to do just fine with their massive tax breaks and government subsidies, and they're so rich that they can afford imported fruits and vegetables. If you get sick and loose your health care you can crawl off and die, and that will solve them problem.

Re:One More Bush Era Screw Up

[Keebler71]

One more example of how Bush and his greedy incompetent Republican asshats have screwed everybody. This stuff is used because of a conditional waiver that was issued in 2003, against the scientific advices of the experts.

It's just like the BP Gulf oil spill and the coal mine explosion in West Virginia. There are systems in place to protect people and the environment, but when the Republicans gain control they stop all oversight. It takes five to fifteen years to see all the failures, and by then everyone forgets who turned over control to the crooks and lairs.

They just wave the flag, blame everything on the government bureaucrats and illegal aliens, scream about the war on terror, and then lie and deny when the shit hits the fan. I guess as long as these morons continue to lie and cheat their way into power we deserve to have poisoned gulf seafood and the end of flowering crops.

Don't worry, you can just consume more high fructose processed food and get diabetes. The corn/agribusiness lobby will continue to do just fine with their massive tax breaks and government subsidies, and they're so rich that they can afford imported fruits and vegetables. If you get sick and loose your health care you can crawl off and die, and that will solve them problem.

Pssstttttt.... 15 years before the events you cited... Clinton was president.

Re:One More Bush Era Screw Up

[je ne sais quoi]

I'd just like to add that, while strongly worded, the parent post isn't actually a troll. The Bush adminstration closed a research lab for honeybees and canceled funding for projects that were focused on determining the cause of the mysterious honey bee deaths. It's tempting to say that the Bush administration canceled those projects because it already knew the truth about what was killing the honeybees, but I don't really see how they could have known that precisely was the cause, more than likely they just didn't care.

As further evidence, the number of lawsuits issued by the EPA dropped by 75% under the Bush administration. (!) It's no coincidence that during the last decade we had increasing food safety alerts about E. Coli, etc. in our food, increased mercury in bodies of water, etc., etc. etc. This was done intentionally in the belief that applying the following rules always works: "regulation = bad" "business interests = good". Stupid and short-sighted.... (And yet somehow the American people felt it was a good idea to let these guys back into control of congress? WTF? They're going to get what they deserve, the only problem is I'm going to get what they deserve it too since environmental problems affect everyone.)

Re:One More Bush Era Screw Up

[Moridineas]

I'd just like to add that, while strongly worded, the parent post isn't actually a troll

Let's see, in reality clothianidin was granted full approval this year -- April 2010! That's 4 years of a completely Democratically controlled congress and 2 years of a Democratic House+Senate+President. Most politically appointees from the Bush years are LONG gone by now. Turnover in agencies is incredible around election time. I'm very, very glad to see more stuff of this type appear on Wikileaks (though I wish some other government's dirty laundry would start showing up too). The troll part is being so blindly partisan. IMHO, it's that kind of super-polarized partisanship that helps lead to so many of our political problems.

Additionally, CCD is occurring around the globe--even in countries that don't use clothiandin.

As further evidence, the number of lawsuits issued by the EPA dropped by 75% [enO's-newswire.com] under the Bush administration. (!) It's no coincidence that during the last decade we had increasing food safety alerts about E. Coli, etc. in our food, increased mercury in bodies of water, etc., etc. etc

What on does the EPA have to do with E. coli outbreaks? Does the EPA really control wild boards running through spinach fields? Or indeed have ANYTHING to do with that situation?

Re:One More Bush Era Screw Up

[ppanon]

Does the EPA really control wild boards running through spinach fields? Or indeed have ANYTHING to do with that situation?

Well that's the responsibility of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). However I think the point the gentleman was making was that the Republicans (in particular their "libertarian" wing) have this tendency to gut red tape, minimize government enforcement, and count on industry self-monitoring and "voluntary guidelines" with the expectation that the free market will redress all wrongs. That doesn't happen with car emissions, with pollution controls, with pharmaceuticals (remember snake oil salesmen promoted snake oil for curing all sorts of ailments), or Ponzi schemes gussied up as investment funds. It also doesn't work when there are only around 7 major meat packing companies in the country and safety problems in one producer create significant shortages that drive up the price and force vendors to turn back to suppliers that have proved themselves unsafe in the past. Too big to fail doesn't just happen to banks. There are areas where excessive regulation may be caused by overzealous bureaucrats, but food safety is one where I generally prefer to err on the side of safety.

The one exception I would make regarding food safety, if I could still eat cheese, has to do with the mandated pasteurization of soft cheeses. Put warning labels on the cheese and keep them away from small children and pregnant women, but let me make that choice. It's telling that there have been far fewer deaths in Western Europe from unpasteurised cheeses than there have been in Canada or the US with listeria or E. Coli outbreaks from inspected meat plants. Mainly I find it ridiculous that you can't buy an unpasteurized brie, but cigarettes are sold by the carton at the checkout stand,

Re:One More Bush Era Screw Up

[kestasjk]

This stuff is used because of a conditional waiver that was issued in 2003, against the scientific advices of the experts.

Bees are in decline in europe as well, and the decline has been going on since before 2003.

Maybe this conditional waiver was bad for the environment, I wouldn't be at all surprised, but to think that it's the root cause of the problem is pretty childish.. The world isn't so simple

Re:One More Bush Era Screw Up

[Boronx]

Rick Perlstein called them "E. Coli conservatives", because they think helping big business make more money is more important than protecting the food supply from deadly bacteria. The name comes from the Bush era FDA, much hobbled and reduced, and the rash of tainted food deaths that happened under its oversight. But the absolute nadir was when the Bush administration took a slaughter house to court to try to stop them from testing each cow for Mad Cow disease and use the negative results for marketing. They did this on behalf of the rest of the cattle industry, which was afraid they'd have to follow suit and a bunch of positives would turn up.

Re:Some Questions

[sqldr]

What about the UK

There was a horizon program on the BBC here called "what's killing our bees?", which suggested that the only country not really affected (yet) was Australia, who have a roaring trade selling bees now.

That was 2 years ago. Yes, the UK is affected.

and wikileaks are terrorists

[monkyyy]

how did this stay hidden so long

Where are those who dubbed wikileaks 'terrorists'

[unity100]

Come again ?

North american bee population has been declining, scientists estimated that in a few decades this would affect everything in agriculture (pollination), and trying to solve it. it was even dubbed end of mankind. it was that serious.

Now it turns out that, your government has allowed bee-killing pesticides. noone heard about it. no journalist made news of it. no ngo was warned of it. NOONE KNEW. if wikileaks didnt leak it, you would not know about it, still.

tell me now, who are the real terrorists ? the ones letting you know that your entire ecosystem and agriculture is being killed by corporations which have been allowed by your government, or, those corporations and the government themselves ?

wise up. support wikileaks. it is giving you the control over your government that was taken away from you.

Snippy "Free Market" Comments

[geoffrobinson]

So when anything bad happens involving some private enterprise, someone on here usually has some stupid comment like "I thought the free market would make life perfect."

Well, let me be the one to offer a hypothesis: people are no good and there is no perfect system because of people. Or if we want to be sarcastic too "I thought government regulators were going to make life perfect."

Re:Snippy "Free Market" Comments

[copponex]

It's because there are idiots out there known as "libertarians" who believe that emasculating the government will solve everything. They are just as fucking wrong as utopian communists.

A transparent market is an amazing thing, but unfortunately, a market desires to be opaque in order to increase profits. Unless you have a strong and largely uncorrupted government to continue providing transparency, you don't have a market. You have a conspiratorial oligopoly that will risk destroying entire ecosystems to push up quarterly profits.

Re:Snippy "Free Market" Comments

[duffbeer703]

There's a difference between being responsible and acting in good faith and letting your narrow self-interest damage others.

When a chemical company invents a pesticide or hebicide that enables farmers to grow more food or avoid some sort of difficult or dangerous manual labor, that's a good thing. When pesticide has wider-ranging effects that can negatively effect the greater environment or economic fortunes of others, and that same company obfuscates or actively funds research to deflect attention, that is a bad thing.

Many people who claim to be "capitalists", but who are actually aspiring plutocrats, have a very shallow understanding of how markets work and have picked up this near-religous faith that whatever makes a business happy is good. That's not necessarily true -- business also needs to be a good neighbor. If one of the side-effects of your business activity is contibuting to the destruction of a form of life that is a key part of the food chain, you are an enemy of free markets and our free society.

Re:Snippy "Free Market" Comments

[lwsimon]

Agreed - this is exactly the kind of thing a government is for -- keeping the interests of one party from damaging the rights of others.

Unless they own the bees they're killing, then pesticide companies are creating demonstrable harm. Sue them out of existence for the lost bees.

Re:Snippy "Free Market" Comments

[blahplusplus]

You are with the faith based economics community apparently.

But let us not forget the grand (socialist) bail out of the right which they begged dear nanny state so they could pay their rich friends with so they wouldn't suffer any losses. But yet they can't afford to help the homeless or the poor right?

It's ok when the federal reserve gives the warm embrace of socialism to the rich. Trillions in offsheet balance transactions to domestic and foreign multinational corporations.

http://dailybail.com/home/there-are-no-words-to-describe-the-following-part-ii.html

Ben Bernanke on 60 minutes, look at how nervous the man is!

http://dailybail.com/home/bernanke-on-60-minutes-were-not-printing-money.html

Everyone loves socialism... just remember to point your fellow conservatives to the following videos next time they start with the ridiculous partisan rhetoric.

Re:Snippy "Free Market" Comments

[geekoid]

This has nothign to do with CCD, the EPA had no reason not to allow this, and this article is just a knee jerk reaction by someone who doesn't really know how to think about a subject.

Regulation has made life a hell of a lot better.While there are people who literal say 'The free market is perfect' there is no one that says 'Regulation is perfect'.

People who claim the invisible hand of the free market is perfect either haven't studied history, or make money through some sort of shell game.

Re:Some Questions

[benjamindees]

The pesticide is a seed coating?

Some are sprays. There are actually dozens of different types, mostly due to the pharmaceutical companies' vast experience in slightly modifying known drugs in order to maintain patent coverage. This also means that, every time they create a new one, they get several years to sell it and pretend that it has no ill-effects before studies are done and it is either banned or the lawsuits start rolling in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid

And, yes, that name means these drugs are similar to nicotine. They are literally spraying our food with drugs that are known to be harmful and addictive to humans, and calling it "pesticide". George W. Bush hamstrung the EPA and tried to cover the whole thing up because he was a blatant whore for the pharma-chemi-troleum industry along with being the single most completely worthless president in US history.

Re:Some Questions

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

The Green Revolution, heralded by former USAID director William Gaud, is a Malthusian population control mechanism. Oh. USAID? An operational front for the CIA

It was designed to create maximum crop yield for a 20-50 year period, with a maximum of industrialization and a minimization of farm labour.

The result of which was to create a vacuum of occupational opportunity in the rural communities, which in the 1960's were still the hubs of livelihood for much of the population in the US, Canada and Western Europe.

A migrational trend to urban population centers - abetted by making college/university education cheap and widely available - resulted in a generation transferring from rural existence to urban dwelling. With the former were left behind strong community ties, and the possibility for reasonable self-sufficiency. These were exchanged for "upwardly mobile' creature comforts, that also isolated the individual from his peers, and rendered him an entirely dependent creature - entirely divorced from the skills and capability to feed, clothe and shelter himself and his family. Instead, this ability was replaced through complex commercial abstractions - herded into urban and suburban enclaves.

There never needed to be FEMA camps. The urban existance of late-20th century "modern" life was a honeypot, into which a society hurled itself, with little regard to the consequences for its prized independence and the foundation of its liberty.

Now, what are you going to do, when the collection of rainwater is enforced as a felony? Did you know that Detroit just suspended garbage collection and police patrolling in 20% of the city?

The bad Science Fiction dystopia is real.

The bees? Just a late stage of this sad, intentional collapse...

malicious skepticism

[SuperBanana]

You've insinuated gross incompetence on the part of the researchers. Have you actually gone out and tried to find the answers to these questions? Are you qualified in the field to question the research? Or are you just going off the article, which is a summary of research that was almost undoubtedly much more in-depth than a journalists' summary?

I consider myself a strong skeptic, but one of the duties of a skeptic is to realize their limits. I don't attend a graduate-level lecture and start asking questions - I'd be asked to leave, or at least laughed at. So when I'm confronted with something that doesn't seem right, I seek more information. You're not. You're just throwing out questions. Rather slanted ones.

I see this often, and I suspect it is an actual class of logical fallacy...

1)A slashdotter posts a series of slanted questions and wondering-alouds that are very FUD-ish.

2)The questions aren't (properly) answered, because the audience (jokes about parent's basements aside) doesn't have much knowledge on the subject. Or, the answers that are qualified aren't noticed by moderators.

3)The questions, which are more a challenge to refute a contrary viewpoint to the article than anything else, appear to be valid because there's no response visible. And thus what was probably perfectly legitimate research gets shot down by someone with no background in the subject. Probably not even a mild background in research.

Lastly: the burden of proof no longer rests on the shoulders of the public. After decades of the chemical industry producing toxins and marketing them for uses which were harmful, then doing everything to cover it all up...they are no longer entitled to public trust. If you want to manufacture a chemical and spray it on thousands of square miles of farmland, you better prove first that it doesn't cause problems.

This is especially so, given that research shows that old farming techniques and organic practices are equally or more effective, and cause no permanent damage to people or the environment. Virtually none of the artificial stuff spread on the farmlands of the world are *necessary*, even if one's sole criteria is increased yield.

If anyone wants to see another scary example of this "what, me worry?" attitude, check out methyl iodide, a known toxin, which was just approved for use by California:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fn%2Fa%2F2010%2F12%2F01%2Fnational%2Fa143424S98.DTL&tsp=1

"Hey, it's okay to spread this toxic crap all over the ground, because we'll only use what we think is just enough, and people want pretty strawberries."

Re:malicious skepticism

[he-sk]

This is especially so, given that research shows that old farming techniques and organic practices are equally or more effective, and cause no permanent damage to people or the environment. Virtually none of the artificial stuff spread on the farmlands of the world are *necessary*, even if one's sole criteria is increased yield.

Before someone shoots down your argument, wondering what research you are refering to, I thought I'd provide a link to underscore your point: http://www.seedquest.com/News/releases/2007/july/19783.htm

A study by the University of Michigan showed that organic methods are sufficient to feed the current global population and more without an increase in the landbase used for agriculture.

Re:malicious skepticism

[Kashgarinn]

And if farmland was owned/monitored/in control of a single entity which could change farming development to the more organic but less efficient way, then that would be fine.

But farming is done by lots of individuals who are competing for cash, and they want to maximize _their_ profit

The free market system in this regard is failing, it's making people make bad decisions due to their own greed.

Re:malicious skepticism

[digsbo]

I see this often, and I suspect it is an actual class of logical fallacy...

I don't think it's a class of logical fallacy. I think it's a failure to sincerely engage in dialectic, or more likely, an example of bad rhetoric.

Dialectic requires asking questions, but the questioner must be interested in the answers, and agree to them or follow-up with relevant questions.

Rhetoric, as opposed to dialectic, is more a means of suasion than a logical approach to discovering the truth, and probably what was intended here.

Note that dialectic is not widely taught in the USA, even at the college level liberal arts curricula. I suspect that has a great deal to do with the sad state of discourse.

Re:malicious skepticism

[he-sk]

How come? Is it because pesticides make it possible to use less labor?

Given that 50% of the food produced for western markets lands in the trash and does not reach the consumer, I'd say there are better ways to bring down costs than using pesticides with all their negative side effects.

BTW, I'm not talking about spoiled food, but perfectly fine foodstuff that's close to its mostly arbitrary best-before-use date or which doesn't meet some visual criteria that consumers have become conditioned to expect. We're all paying a markup for that.

Also, in those parts of the world where food cannot be afforded it is usually because the local markets are flooded which cheaply produced and imported western food that has driven the local farmers out of work because they cannot compete. So cheap food is a double-edged sword.

Re:Not like Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Your argument for limited government controls to prevent a tragedy of the commons is not also an argument for strong government controls like massive redistribution of wealth and the destruction of the dollar as a valuable entity. Furthermore, your suggestion that Somalia is a form of free market is ludicrous.

You should actually try to understand what you're arguing against. Capitalism is a philosophy of private ownership, pacifism, and protection of property rights. Somalia, by contrast, is what happens when you make a point of not respecting private property. It is no more the logical extreme of Capitalism than Soviet Russia was the logical extreme of communism. They're both good examples of what happens when you believe that might and the majority are all it takes to make right.

You can pretend to be smarter than us, but your asinine suggestion that government shouldn't represent us because we don't adhere to your philosophy is abhorrent and anti-democratic. Furthermore, any intelligent person should be able to see the damage being caused by this particular pesticide. Why do you assume that we wouldn't acknowledge that there is a problem and move to stop it? Are you arguing that we should have predicted this in advance? Are there not errors in your life that you wish you could have prevented?

A good capitalist would admit that he or she fucked up and do something about it. What would you do in the same situation, other than point fingers or beg the Government to come save you?

Hold on now...

[uvajed_ekil]

This sounds bad, and I admit that this is the first I've heard about this particular pesticide being especially toxic to bees, but let's not get carried away. The longstanding mystery of Colony Collapse Disorder in bees has pretty much been solved. A few months ago, it was published that a double whammy of a fungus and a virus acting at the same time are almost certainly what have decimated bee populations around the world. A bee colony can usually survive either of the two pathogens, and it will recover, but being hit by both at the same time is deadly. The science behind this conclusion looked sound, and most experts have agreed. Sure, this pesticide has clearly not helped bees, and perhaps a ban is in order, but it is not the main factor behind all the recent hubbub about honeybees.

I don't want to hear anything about evil electromagnetic radiation, cell phones, wifi, government conspiracies, aliens, a grassy knoll, or malnutrition induced by an exploding pooh bear population. The answer is simple and makes sense. Bee populations have suffered around the world, including where there is neither ubiquitous wifi nor this pesticide, and the virus/fungus combo has been found everywhere anyone has looked. Now, maybe aliens brought the virus and communists spread the fungus, but...

Re:Hold on now...

[luther349]

i have a uncle who is a beekeeper and lost nearly his entire stock one year to this. my family happens to own a entire mounten. so no such pesticides where used and they still collapsed. so i defently side with that dubble whammy effect. but the pesticides are also not good and should be banned.

Re:Some Questions

[Martin Blank]

Before you go all tinfoil-hat on us, maybe you should get some points straight. Among them is that the Detroit idea is a proposal, is contingent on approvals at multiple levels and securing funding to move people from neighborhoods that would no longer receive full services, and is simply reflective of the reality that Detroit, once a bustling city of 1.85 million people in 1950, is now under half of that, with nearly 35,000 empty homes.

Besides, urbanization has been happening for centuries. It's picked up the pace in recent decades, but I bet most of the people around in even the 1950s would have been hard pressed to provide entirely for themselves had the need arisen.

This industry is SO CORRUPT.

[Entropius]

My father is an entomologist for a university Extension Service. For those who don't know (non-Americans), the Extension Services are outreach arms of the universities set up to provide advice to the public. His main job is to advise farmers on pest control measures for crops, mostly cotton; the advice is often "if you spray to kill pest A, you'll also kill predator B, which eats pest C which is resistant to insecticide, and C will eat your cotton. So don't do anything and put up with A, they won't eat that much."

Many of the meetings are sponsored by chemical companies. There are responsible uses of insecticides; used wisely, some insecticides can provide a cost-effective way to increase yields with very minimal long-term environmental harm. But the chemical companies are corrupt as hell. They try to bribe the scientists with lavish gifts to publish studies that favor their products, and encourage farmers (and scientists) to use too much insecticide, or use it when it's not really appropriate. It's sham science done for the sake of greed, and it is disgusting.

On the flip side, there are "studies" that show environmental harm where there really isn't any -- either by misguided "everything must be grown organically" types, or by people pushing back against the chemical company propaganda.

It's hard to tell a damn thing from "studies" on this sort of thing, because everyone is so busy grinding axes that who's right and who's wrong gets completely lost. This makes me, as a scientist in another field where there is far less of that, rather angry.

Re:This industry is SO CORRUPT.

[Anonymous Coward]

You've also described how modern medicine works as well.

Re:Some Questions

[TubeSteak]

The FDA screens pesticides for how they will be used, how mobile the pesticide is and how long the residue lasts. If this was not done then cry foul.
...
I have not found the application for use as a seed coating but Bayer would have needed to go through a process to get that approved by the EPA.

Did you RTFA?
"...Bayer was granted a 'conditional registration' while the Environmental Protection Agency waited for them to conduct further field studies on the pesticides impact on bee colonies."

Long story short: The original study was crap, the EPA allowed it, and Bayer knew that the pesticide was a bee killer.

Re:Some Questions

[Entropius]

While I agree with the sentiment of your post, you misrepresent the neonicotinoids. Nicotine evolved as a natural insecticide; it's only logical that we use it too if we want to kill insects. (When insects should be killed, of course, is not the question here.)

There are pretty stringent controls on how recently food can be sprayed before it's harvested; I'd worry far more about environmental degradation from the stuff than harm to food consumers.

Those crazy germans.

[QuantumG]

Bayer: the people who gave us Heroin.

really

Re:Those crazy germans.

[QuantumG]

Well, their advertising for Heroin was for "non-addictive opium".. could they have gotten that any more wrong?

Re:Some Questions

[Entropius]

Which pesticides?

There is a /huge/ spectrum of different chemicals to kill different sorts of pests, used in different ways, and with different mechanisms of action. Saying that "pesticides" affect nitrogen fixation is an overbroad statement.

Re:Where are those who dubbed wikileaks 'terrorist

[GodfatherofSoul]

You need to relax. It's quite simple if you understand Friedmannite economics. Cutting corporate taxes and deregulation will resolve all of our problems. The Free Market will come up with a cheaper, better solution to bee pollination.

Re:Some Questions

[fucket]

Try again.

Re:and

[Anonymous Coward]

I modded it off-topic because it has nothing to add to the dicussion of pesticides and their effect on bees. Nor does it offer any real discussion about the EPA approval prrocess. In fact, the entire pesticide/bee story is merely cited as an example of something else entirely that the poster is just itching to tell us about.

And if it wasn't off-topic, calling your political opponents asshats, morons and cheaters is just flaming. It's barely on-topic as a mindless political screed, which is a pretty low standard. But "uncomfortable truth"? Partisan ranting is certainly one of those two things.

I am sure the EPA will act swiftly

[mysidia]

These leaks MUST be stopped immediately, and those responsible must go to jail for life, and execution may even be warranted. I am sure the EPA will be acting quickly to ensure those responsible for the leaks are rapidly brought to justice.

This is a clear and dire threat to national security, and the leakers are traitors; think of what will happen when the Bees find out the nature of the pesticide, and the informants who formulated it!

This will only serve to cause more incidents of bee attacks against us, costing precious human lives.

Lives are at stake; and the leakers are enemy combatants performing an act of terrorism

<sarcasm>

Re:Some Questions

[sjames]

Also, it's apparently used in the UK. Are only North American bees susceptible to this? The article says:

Of course not. The better question would be has the UK had a problem with colony collapse as well? The answer to that would be yes, it has.

Re:Some Questions

[hairyfeet]

Read TFA and your questions are answered, but long story short this stuff spreads through the environment quite easily and even tiny doses kills bees dead. I don't know how often (if ever) you get to step onto a farm but I live in the south and I can tell you the megafarms run by the megacorps are VERY irresponsible with regards to chemicals.

The smaller family farms I've been on generally try to limit the use of chemicals whenever possible simply because the stuff is not only toxic but expensive so when they spray they tend to use any chemicals sparingly and as a last resort. Like instead of using fertilizers which end up polluting the drinking water they will simply buy manure or trade for it from the local ranchers and use that instead. Contrast this to the megafarms which frankly drown the ground in chemicals so thick you can't even breathe driving by one of the things. I don't know if it is corporate policy, or if since the guys working the farm don't own the land they just don't care or what, but they really go overboard with it.

And frankly it isn't just the bees affected either, as those of us allergic to bee and wasp stings can tell you the reaction you get thanks to the pesticides getting into the sting is SERIOUSLY nasty, and according to my doc the last time I saw him over being stung he says more and more are developing severe allergic reactions to stings thanks to the "toxic wasps and bees" as he calls them. and considering how much we need bees to pollinate the crops the chemical in TFA is giving a small short term gain for REALLY big long term losses.

Re:Some Questions

[shawb]

Technically, they weren't finding piles of dead bees. The initial presentation was often that the bees were simply missing.

But yeah, pedanticism aside, your main point still stands. Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) is a pretty serious problem facing beekeeping and any agriculture that relies heavily on bees for fertilization, such as almonds. There are many many possibilities on what causes CCD. I personally have a feeling that it's going to end up being something like cancer where there isn't one type of CCD, but there are many different disorders with a similarly presenting outcome. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the collapses are multivariate, such as bee colony transport and exposure to crop pesticides reducing the bees immune system, which leads to infestation of mites, which is treated with more pesticides further stressing the bees to the point where they get a viral infection which then opens the door for secondary fungal or bacterial infections which actually kill the bees. It is thought that the hives are often found empty because if a bee "realizes" that it's sick, it will try to get away from the hive to prevent spread, but the widespread immune system impairment causes a full blown epidemic out of what would have been a couple of sick bees. Basically any of the individual stresses wouldn't be enough for the entire colony to collapse, but added up the bees don't stand a chance. Large problems like this never seem to have one magic pill that just fixes everything.

Re:Some Questions

[wizardforce]

I have mod points but I'm also a biochemist so I thought I'd answer a few of your questions.

The pesticide is a seed coating? How frequently do bees come into contact with seeds that are planted?

The pesticide in question is also found in pollen. Since Bees come into frequent contact with said pollen, it's not too much of a surprise that at certain levels, it can be harmful to them.

Also, it's apparently used in the UK. Are only North American bees susceptible to this? The article says:

In short, no, they are not the only ones susceptible. The LD50 for bees is in the ppm range but there is concern that bees show abnormal behavior at ~20 ppb. Different plant components contain different concentrations of the insecticide. Mostly in the leaves which can have up to 20x the amount of insecticide shown to change bee behavior.

The pesticide its self is designed to mimic Nicotine in that it works against the neurological systems of many species of insects.

Re:Some Questions

[Duradin]

Use != overuse

Re:Where are those who dubbed wikileaks 'terrorist

[unity100]

Here we are. When they released the locations of targets, they became terrorists.

rest of the world doesnt give a flying fsck about american cia operatives who participated in kidnapping ,or american soldiers who have participated voluntarily in occupations, are being targeted or not. its their choice, their life. they should ask themselves, what are they doing there, in the first place.

what is appalling is that, there are people who are basically saying that we should be sorry for cia operatives who kidnapped german citizens or other nationals from the middle of europe, took them to bases in client countries in middle east, and tortured them. and, anyone revealing the location of these people, are 'terrorists'.

the real terrorists are people who kidnap others, and torture them. the world doesnt give a flying fuck about the 'lives' endangered by wikileaks' leaks as such. they are the terrorists which should have been hunted for that long time. they have even violated constitutions and sovereignty of ALLIED countries.

To recap. get a fucking clue. you dont know right from wrong.

Fungus and virus combo.

[Burnhard]

I was reading just yesterday that the bee population was being affected by a combination of a virus and a fungus and that this is the main reason for the decline.

Re:Fungus and virus combo.

[Fnkmaster]

Yeah, except the NY Times article failed to mention that that study was funded by Bayer Crop Sciences, whose product was the principle other suspect behind Colony Collapse Disorder.

See this CNN piece in response to the NY Times article: http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/08/news/honey_bees_ny_times.fortune/index.htm

And this article posted a few threads up: http://www.ktradionetwork.com/tag/dr-jerry-bromenshenk/

Not clear what the real answer is, but it just goes to show that it's easier to mislead a New York Times journalist than one would think and that any scientific study that answers questions of economic significance are subject to meddling with money. Though we sometimes assume that scientists are truly objective, they are human beings and subject to biases and influence like the rest of us.

These sorts of potential conflicts of interest need to be better disclosed - and it's rather embarrassing that the New York Times never published a clarification or follow-up story about this (at least as far as I know).

Migration

[lemmis_86]

Hmm, is that why we had an INSANE amount of bees here in Finland this summer? They were literally everywhere, and in large colonies. They were even out at sea and in the archipelago, which is somewhat rare.

Re:Migration

[MRe_nl]

Finland, Finland, Finland,
That's where I want to Bee?

Re:Some Questions

[arivanov]

Somehow I am not surprised.

It is also the only country to go against the flow and invest on a crazy scale into government sponsored agricultural research.

Why do you thing Australian wines are marching victoriously even across old wine producing countries? Why do you think 100+ year old vineries in Europe are throwing out their traditional tech and using Australian? In fact a lot of the ones we think as "traditional" are actually now aussie tech and even part-owned by them. It is because they have spent a colossal amount on government sponsored research into this over the last 50 odd years.

Same with everything else. It is a textbook example that there are cases where pinko commie government intervention actually works and when it works - when it is an investment into foundations and infrastructure through R&D while leaving the private enterprises utilise it after that.

On the subject of bees - they have long invested into research in pesticide minimisation techniques at a government level and they have spent a shedload of money on it. As a result, I am not surprised that they are laughing madly Kookaburra sitting on an old gum tree style while the rest of the developed world is running around like headless chickins.

Re:Where are those who dubbed wikileaks 'terrorist

[traindirector]

While WikiLeaks is a current and exciting topic, the clothianidin/EPA leak has nothing to do with WikiLeaks.

Quoting a prominent secondary story linked from TFA:

So how did Theobald (pictured above) end up with such a contentious document?

Bayer, the corporation behind clothianidin (the pesticide in question), published a life cycle study about it in 2006 at the EPA's request. The study was flawed--test and control fields were, for example, planted as close as 968 feet apart. But the EPA continued to allow the use of clothianidin, which has been on the market since 2003 for use on corn, canola, soy, sugar beets, sunflowers, and wheat (and which has been banned by Germany, France, Italy, and Slovenia for its toxic effects on bees, birds, and other species).

Fast forward to this year. Theobald wrote an article in the July issue of Bee Culture about clothianidin. Then an employee at the EPA called Theobald to tell him the article had led the EPA to review the pesticide's original life cycle study before approving clothianidin for use on cotton and mustard.

"They told me that EPA scientists had reviewed the original lifecycle study and determined it wasn't scientifically sound, and I asked if it had been documented, if there was a hard copy," he says, "The [employee] said yes, and I asked if I could get a copy." And just like that, he had the proof he needed that the EPA had overlooked something that could be killing America's bees.

Real data

[Per Abrahamsen]

Here is the EU data on the pesticide.

Some highlights: It is an insecticide, so it should not really surprise that it kills bees. The toxitity to honey bees is well known (LD50 = 0.004 ug/bee, which the document interpret as "high" risk). And it is approved for use in most EU countries, including Italy and Germany.

Re:Some Questions

[TapeCutter]

So let's say we all rise up in a cultural revolution and go back to the fields where we can do an honest days labour side-by-side with our families, and then what happens Mr Mao?

"The bad Science Fiction dystopia is real. The bees? Just a late stage of this sad, intentional collapse..."

No, the reality is that nobody could have guessed our current social norms back in the 50's, let alone planned them! The idillic picture of the past you paint is just the misplaced nostalgia of a bunch of semi-senile people from my generation.

Re:Where are those who dubbed wikileaks 'terrorist

[DMiax]

Enough with the crazy doomsaying.

Capitalism will solve this problem as all the others. Soon Monsanto will be announcing genetically modified bees that will resist to the pesticide.

All will be well, except that these bees will somehow kill all cows. At which point Monsanto will give us those better, iron-skinned OGM cows they are working on *right* *now*.

They are incredibly strong and resistant, so much that your head will explode when you try to chew their meat. Enter the OGM humans. They can shoot laser beams and fly and have two dicks. All is well but Monsanto does not produce females to avoid stealing their patented DNA. The human race will last other 30 years in masturbation and vanish.

As you can see everything will work out perfectly.

Re:Some Questions

[Xest]

"The pesticide is a seed coating? How frequently do bees come into contact with seeds that are planted?"

It'll be systemic, in that the plant absorbs it through it's life and any pest eating the plant gets a dose of it. The problem with these systemic insecticides is that they carry through even to the pollen, so Mr Bee plays around with the flower, gets some pollen on him, takes it back to his hive stuck to his legs and then you have pollen infected with systemic insecticide that kills the bees in the hive.

"Also, it's apparently used in the UK. Are only North American bees susceptible to this?"

No, Europe has the same problem with heavy bee decline.

"I'm not a fan of pesticides but I won't deny that they increase food and crop yield."

Even if they do, is it necessary? Here in the UK we have farmers complaining about how crop prices have been forced lower and lower, so many complaining they can't afford to compete each year, we have fields of cabbages and so forth that are just left to rot. In my mind with this kind of evidence we have too much food, perhaps if farmers moved back to organic methods then they may get smaller yeilds but it'd push the prices up for them and yeah, the end customers will probably have to pay more too, but it's not like paying unsustainably low prices in the first place is a good thing, it just means folks will have to give up their chelsea tractors, or get a 40" TV instead of a 50". It aint going to be the end of the world. There's also many health concerns caused by pesticides, we're not immune to any effect from these pesticides, in larger doses they're just as harmful to us, we just don't get them in those doses from crops. The problem is, we don't know what effect small doses have in the longer term.

Interestingly I used to live in the south of the UK and we eventually moved up to Yorkshire, since moving up here my dogs have developed lumps, they're not cancerous but they're quite large all the same and oddly, all the dogs around here have grown lumps- this isn't something that happened to anyone's pets I knew down south, and the difference here is we're surrounded by more fields and the dogs run through the fields. I do wonder if perhaps pesticides are to blame, the lumps don't seem to hurt the dogs, but they are large- the size of a fist in some cases.

Despite all this, as someone who grows cacti in his spare time, I also know the flip side of it- amateur gardeners have lost access to a lot of pesticides over the years and that has led to immunity to the small range (Imidacloprid, Thiadacloprid) of insecticides that are available to amateur gardener amongst invasive species such as non-native Mealy Bugs and Red Spider Mites. As always though, the reason they've been removed for amateur use is due to abuse of farmers- there's a big difference spraying thousands of gallons of the stuff, to an amateur using half a pint to spray a few plants which are kept in a closed environment such as a greenhouse.

I don't really know what the answer is, large scale use of pesticides simply is not good, I think in many ways even GM foods are a better option, because at least you're not introducing poisons that kill things like bees, and have potentially harmful effects on people and pets. Current regulation seems to let farmers get away with murder, whilst not providing pesticides that amateurs could use to abolish invasive species in small quantities in a closed environment where they don't effect the outside world.

I think the only solution is a massive overhaul of regulation from the ground up, but companies like Bayer are massive, and seem to have a near worldwide control of national and international pesticide regulations. I was quite shocked to see a note from Bayer in a garden centre the other week withdrawing one of their named pesticides to be replaced with a new one that was based on the same mix, but had just been rebranded and the price increased- the bit that shocked me is that this meant their old product, was now illegal to use beca

Re:Some Questions

[neonsignal]

You want to be careful posting quotes about kookaburras and old gum trees, apparently there are some copyright issues :-)

Re:Where are those who dubbed wikileaks 'terrorist

[kestasjk]

You need to relax. It's quite simple if you understand Friedmannite economics. Cutting corporate taxes and deregulation will resolve all of our problems. The Free Market will come up with a cheaper, better solution to bee pollination.

Actually large-scale farms which want everything pollinated and thus ready for harvest in one go purchase the services of large-scale beekeepers, which drive farmed bees to the area in hive trucks and leave them there while they pollinate. By the time they die off it's mission accomplished, and growing bees artificially wherever you want isn't under threat like the naturally occurring bees that pollinate wild flowers.

The "free market (i.e. people earning a living) have already figured out the pollination of food crops, it's an environmental issue. (And not a calamitous one, but one that justifies some good research and reevaluation of the rules, which is a process of improvement that this article and discussion form a part of.)

Re:Some Questions

[neonsignal]

Bayer had a press release in 2008 after the loss of bees in Baden-Württemberg. Notice that they do not deny that the loss was caused by clothianidine, though they do blame process issues leading to higher concentrations in the environment. So it would appear that caution should have already been in order.

Re:Where are those who dubbed wikileaks 'terrorist

[Chmcginn]

Actually large-scale farms which want everything pollinated and thus ready for harvest in one go purchase the services of large-scale beekeepers, which drive farmed bees to the area in hive trucks and leave them there while they pollinate. By the time they die off it's mission accomplished, and growing bees artificially wherever you want isn't under threat like the naturally occurring bees that pollinate wild flowers.

Except that it's the colonies used by commercial beekeepers that are among the hardest-hit by CCD, and their replenishment programs can't keep up with the loss. If a cure for CCD can't be found, in a few years the supply of hives will be lower than the demand for pollination services.

Said study by Bayer associate

[Esteanil]

The study you are referencing was made by Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk, who has economical ties to Bayer (The producer of the pesticide cited). Ref: NYT via http://www.ktradionetwork.com/tag/dr-jerry-bromenshenk/

Re:Said study by Bayer associate

[phantomfive]

That article comes from the Natural News, a website known for misinformation and just plain bad facts. Who are you going to believe, a peer reviewed article by a scientist, or a hack job by a dodgy news service?

That a scientist working in agriculture has ties to a company working in agriculture is not surprising. An accusation that he made up data however, is serious. Serious claims need more than Natural News backing them up (BTW the NYT article appears to be backing up Dr Bromenshenk, not supporting the Natural News' claim).

Re:Where are those who dubbed wikileaks 'terrorist

[MartinSchou]

If a cure for CCD can't be found, in a few years the supply of hives will be lower than the demand for pollination services.

And the market wins again.

When demand outstrips supply the suppliers can up their prices. They'll make a lot more money.
Now, since the food growers can't get enough bees to pollinate their crops, the supply of food will dwindle - more expensive food, meaning more money for the growers.
This means that regular workers have to work more to buy the same amount and kinds of food. That means the supply of workers will outstrip demand and salaries can be cut. That's another win for the market and the companies in particular.

It's Win/Win/Win for the market economy - what's not to like?

Re:Not like Slashdot

[ATestR]

What government=good???? What part of "the agency allowed the widespread use of a bee-toxic pesticide, despite warnings from EPA scientists" made you think that government is good? Yes, some industry is bad. Some is good. Same goes for parts of government.

From the leaked memo

[xclr8r]

End Use Products

This product is toxic to aquatic invertebrates. Do not apply directly to water or to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high-water mark. Do not contaminate water when cleaning equipment or disposing of equipment washwaters. Do not apply where runoff is likely to occur. Runoff from treated areas may be hazardous to aquatic organisms in neighboring areas. Apply this product only as specified on the label. This chemical has properties and characteristics associated with chemicals detected in ground water. The use of this chemical in areas where soils are permeable, particularly where the water table is shallow, may result in ground water contamination.

This compound is toxic to birds and mammals. Treated clothianidin seeds exposed on soil surface may be hazardous to birds and mammals. Cover or collect clothianidin seeds spilled during loading.

This compound is toxic to honey bees. The persistence of residues and potential residual toxicity of Clothianidin in nectar and pollen suggests the possibility of chronic toxic risk to honey bee larvae and the eventual instability of the hive.

Re:Not like Slashdot

[cptdondo]

Capitalism is a philosophy of private ownership, pacifism, and protection of property rights.

The only problem is that your argument relies on a sort of "enlightened dictator" in the role of the supreme capitalist. In the history of the world, this has never happened for any significant length of time.

Look at the history of the labor movement. The mega-companies at the turn of the century had de-facto private armies that beat and killed workers who protested horrendous working conditions.

Capitalism in its pure form as as rare as any theory; too many people are avaricious bastards who will screw their own mother for a dime. Capitalism without a strong government will not lead to "respect of property rights"; rather it will lead to theft, murder, and destruction of anyone who is less powerful than you.

Look at the history of the American West; a lot of "pure capitalists" look at that as some sort of proof of superiority of pure american capitalism personified by the immigrants. In fact, those who became wealthy often did so by cheating, killing, and stealing the property of others. It's not a pretty story, and it goes on to this day.

Re:Some Questions

[luther349]

i came from Pontiac mi.and i can tell you i saw this coming and moved years ago. i think most people with the means to get out did by now. so what you got left behind are the very rich or very poor. if you ever where to visit there you would see so many houses for sale per city block. i sold my house at a huge lose just to get out. but many other houses never sold. mi went to hell when they lost there only means of jobs and money the automotive industry. the unions killed off that by offering people insane pay rates driving up everything else and it eventually collapsed on its-self when car sales slowed. then when other business tried to open up shop there they would hit them with insane tax rates. i can tell you from having a business there unless you bribe every city official they close you down. so that states downfall was there own doing.

Re:Some Questions

[luther349]

and the school are not any better my school had a 98% dropout rate. the place was ran like a prison and none wanted to be there. i didn't finishes school until i left mi.

Re:Some Questions

[mcgrew]

From TFS: Now environmentalists and bee keepers are calling for an immediate ban of the pesticide clothianidin, sold by Bayer Crop Science under the brand name Poncho

Sold in Europe under the brand name dondurun, which is why Paul McCartney wrote a song in favor of banning it!

Ban dondurun, it's toxic to bees!

Re:Some Questions

[Will.Woodhull]

It seems to me a single cause is quite likely for virtually all cases of CCD. That would fit a well-established historical pattern of environmental disruption.

Suggest re-reading Rachel Carson's book, The Silent Spring, published in 1962. It documents events remarkably similar to CCD, when aerial spraying of DDT to control mosquitoes began, and subsequently was found to be causing the widespread death of song birds. And also the presence of DDT in human breast milk, although that did not gain recognition until later. Wikipedia has a brief description of Carson's later work.

What has been found to be true time and again is that some aspect of a new technology has had immense unintended consequences on ecosystems when adopted on large scales. Such as mechanized plowing in the Plains states leading to the Dust Bowl, the proliferation of pleasure boat trailers in the USA leading to the introduction of invasive aquatic species into pristine lakes, etc.

Re:Not like Slashdot

[radtea]

A good capitalist would admit that he or she fucked up and do something about it.

Nope, a good capitalist would try to game the system, which almost always has a better cost/benefit ratio than admiting to a screw-up.

This is just a fact: it is almost always "better"--for some widely accepted standard of "better"--to lie, distract, bully and corrupt than it is to admit the truth, take responsibility for it, and move on.

I used to believe otherwise, but too many years of watching "good capitalists" make exactly that kind of rational economic calculation proved me wrong, and as a rational empiricist I changed my mind about the question.

The only stable, sane society is one in which various interests are maintained in a balance of power, and to balance the huge interests of dishonest, corrupt capitalists we need a large, democratic, transparent and relatively powerful government. The transparency and democracy are key, of course, as otherwise it will fall into all the well-known bad behaviour that humans get up to when given unchecked power.

Re:and

[BJ_Covert_Action]

Probably because, rather than making an articulated, insightful point backed up with some citations and historical examples of the abuses the OP was talking about, the post contains a lot of insulting, flamebaiting, politically biased asshattery that does little more than point a finger and say, "Nah nah nah nah nah nah! Your leaders suck!"

Quite honestly, I think posts like this deserve to be modded flamebait, even if they do have some seeds of truth in them (the lobbying and all that jazz), because they do not contribute to a conversation in an intelligent or rational manner. They are just pissy rants posted by people too immature to accept the fact that the real world is an ugly place, and more often than not, blame doesn't lie with one group of "thems" verses the "us."

Don't worry though, it appears that, despite some downmodding, the post was modded back up to insightful because, just like some commentators, some moderators are too juvenile to recognize flambait when they agree with the point of the rant being posted. So you and the OP can go back to your smug little world where you see things along black and white lines and there are always "bad guys" that always fall under some easily recognizable label like Republicans, assuring yourselves with every breathe that, "at least we're not like them."

Re:Good job

[Omestes]

A nerve you've hit. You directly attacked the integrity of myself and my profession.I know that to some people this might not mean much, but to me it does.

Not the person you were talking to originally, but: This is the point. Most people are completely SICK of being marketed to constantly, and thus you should expect some flack for it. Advertising HAS, uncontroversially, gotten completely out of hand, and some people in your profession are at fault for this. You might even be, don't take that as an insult, I don't know you so can't judge. People are also sick of being dehumanized by advertisers (you are a demographic, not a person), and sick of being manipulated by stupid psychological tricks, and worse outright lied to. I think they are justified in these feelings, since most advertising deserves to die.

I don't think most advertisers deserve to die, mind you, since that is just a bit immature and possibly creepy. My grandfather was in the field (though mostly on the creative/design end), and I obviously had nothing against him. I'm sure there are other nice people in the field, but ultimately I wouldn't feel too bad if all of them were stuck trying to find new work. If we chopped the amount of marketing down by 50%, there still would be too much. If there was a law allowing most marketers to drug us and implant ads on our eye balls, against out will, they would do it and sleep easily at night. Advertising has become completely non-consensual, and people don't like having stuff forced on them, with good reason.

I understand, there is a need to raise consciousness about new products and services, especially now that there are so many alternatives. This is fine. But forcing me to watch these advertisements isn't good, and then peppering them on every single public space, then trying to stick them in every pleasurable pursuit I have just so I have to know that "Happy Soap makes me virile and popular!". Not that "Happy Soap cleans 30% better than Sad Soap", that would be a fair bit information that might be useful, no "Happy Soap makes your penis grow 30 feet longer, and makes Russian supermodels rain down from the heavens. Plus it makes your family really love you, since they all hate you now!" This is just obnoxious and dishonest.

The nicely stated goal of advertising is to "raise awareness", and actual goal, often times, is to try to manipulate us into buying something that we do not want, need, or would otherwise buy. This is NOT a noble goal, this is an obnoxious and morally dubious thing. This is the other thing people hate about your profession, outside of trying to force themselves on us constantly.

Your profession used to be decent, then moved into the annoying but tolerated as necessary category. Thanks to abuses, it has now moved into the pure hatred category. This is pretty much a justified reclassification, if you ask me, since a world completely free from your profession wouldn't be optimal, but would be much better than the world today, and where we're trending towards in the future. Also, a world without professional advertisers wouldn't be free from advertising, people might have to actually make a decent goddamn product and have to live up to their stated quality, instead of making absolute crap and using their marketing budget to cover it up, this way genuine (not seeded) word of mouth would be useful.

Sorry for the rant. I probably could go on for awhile, but won't. But you see why you get hate? You should, your profession is probably as reviled as politics or law. And really you should be getting some hate for it, since you are guilty by association, and share some blame in completely valid problems. Shame is a strong tool to force people to go fix problems.

But I really don't wish you dead, no matter if you're one of the (seemingly) few good guys, or even if you are the idiot that invented pop-under-with-sound flash ads.