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Paris To Test Banning SUVs In the City
thecarchik writes "Paris may be the first city to experiment with such a policy. Next year, it will begin to test restrictions on vehicles that emit more than a certain amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) per kilometer — the measure of a car's contribution to greenhouse gases. An official within the Parisian mayor's office, Denis Baupin, identified older diesel-engined cars and sport-utility vehicles as specific targets of the emissions limit. Residents and travelers have responded by buying thousands of electric cars, including the low-speed fiberglass G-Wiz — despite major safety concerns with the vehicle."
Heavy smug clouds are developing over Paris. Seriously though, isn't the pollution just move upstream when it comes to electric cars? Or have there been recent improvements in that regard?
Many cities in Italy ban general auto traffic in the core downtown, for example Firenze. They have camera, if you drive in downtown and don't have the proper permits, a VERY expensive ticket arrives in the mail.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Over the lifetime of the car, not much.
That's a completely useless article. There's basically no meaningful information until a footnote at the end that it's a rebadged, Indian made Reva.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Drivers in Paris park bumper to bumper and the way to get out of a parking spot is to ram the cars in front and behind of you until you have space to pull out. They drive these little light cars and the bumper bars (US people would say fenders) are all scuffed. My car has a tow bar so you couldn't do that but nobody where I went in Paris seems to use them.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
If you live in Paris, you don't *need* a car, not now, not *ever*.
When I learned to ski my dad taught to point a ski pole at anybody claiming to be out of control while mowing me down. I have used it several times and they always learn to steer immediately.
Along these lines my favourite safety feature for cars is a spike attached at one end to the front bumper and at the other end emerging from the steering column. Hit anything and the driver gets skewered.
Think it will catch on?
http://michaelsmith.id.au
CO2 per kilometer is a horrible metric. No biodiesel for them, then. It sounds like the point of this is to limit greenhouse gas emissions, but all it will really do is reduce fuel consumption and move the CO2 emission to other areas. That's what would happen in the US at least. We don't have as much nuclear power, and tend to consume more oil-based plastic goods than Europeans. Regardless, it's easy for well-intentioned regulations to have counterproductive effects.
Take this as an example. I have a 2.5 ton diesel truck that is over 40 years old. It gets pretty terrible gas mileage. But it's entirely possible that it will last another 40 years. I use it once every six months or so on average. I could buy a new truck. Buying a new truck would mean thirty thousand dollars worth of CO2-intensive manufacturing, steel parts and such. The new truck wouldn't last as long, and would need to be replaced probably within the next 20 years.
I could rent a truck instead. On average, that would cost about the same as the truck I already have, possibly more. Instead of driving directly to where I want to go, I would have to drive to the truck rental store, drive to where I want to go, drive home, drive back to the truck rental store, and then drive back home. And if I rent a truck, the proceeds would likely go to some employees and shareholders who use the money to increase their consumption of goods, food, gasoline and electricity all produced by emitting CO2 as well. So the net result is similar if not more CO2 usage.
Central economic planning is harder than it might seem.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
despite major safety concerns with the vehicle.
if everyone's driving around in GWizes, Yarises, and Smart ForTwos, what safety problem?
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Why bar someone from bringing an SUV with six people in it, but permit someone to drive a slightly smaller vehicle carrying only one person?
The thing that I found striking in TFA: the ban mentions "amount of CO2 per kilometer" only not "per km and per person transported". Like what? The public transportation in Paris doesn't use buses powered by Diesel engines?
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
As a French man, reading the news every day, and living quite close to Paris, I've never heard about such a ban. neither have I heard about "thousands of electric vehicles" being suddenly bought by Paris' residents. Right now, French people are more interested in the end of the "prime à la casse", which is a financial bonus given for buying low emission vehicles, but we're talking gas powered cars, electric cars are nowhere to be seen on french roads and cities.
Paris planned innovation is a system of shared self-service cars (probably electric), which can be used for a few hours for a moderate cost, similar to what has existed for years for bicycles ('vélib', this has been a major success for Paris' mayor).
I notice you're not offering to be the first to "die off like the evolutionary dead end we are."
I'm sorry that things like SUVs don't meet your high standards of aesthetics, but too bad.
You say that they're a sign of the "rich spoiled class" but YOU consider them to be "big and obnoxious and very annoying." You sound a bit like the class you claim to not be a part of.
If you want to make a point, how about you back them up with something more than "I don't like it and I never ever will!"
If other beings "on this plane" wind up not liking the mess we make of the cosmos when we "colonize and pollute it", they can come talk to us then. Since we haven't even managed to colonize our own solar system, I don't think they have anything to worry about for quite some time. Once we do manage to fill up our solar system, it's still more than 4 lightyears to the nearest star, so even if we can achieve instantaneous light speed AND instantaneous braking, we'll STILL be 4 years away from the nearest star! IIRC, our sun is also the closest star to Alpha Centauri, so we'll still be AT LEAST 4 light years away from getting anywhere else (most likely more, but playing on the low end of the scale, it's still at least 4 years)!
So how does this work?
If a SUV makes it through a blockcade, do they reconsider the ban?
Not knowing French politics; but I would assume the test will last until the next general election. If polls go badly, it will get revoked before the next election.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
Austria/Germany ect have a long deep love of classical 1970'-80's US sitcom freedoms. The wide open spaces, family, cars, art, politics, frontier fun, hi tech ect as expressed by hollywood. Voiced over and beamed into every city and town every night.
As for France, the SUV thing could be internal protection for a bump to a new class of French car. You pay cash for your clunkers right to be in the city or pay cash for a new car.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Really, show me ONE SUV that actually uses its space for the work commute. Oh okay, so you found one in ALL of France, big whoop. But I think that Americans just can't grasp the problem. Europe is SMALLER en the cities are just not designed with big cars in mind. For that matter most Europeans just don't get the American road system. The two areas work at a totally different scale. For instance, my own commute takes about 45 minutes... by bicycle, car OR train. Really. The travel time is NOT in the distance but in the waiting. The car gets stuck in all kinds of traffic jams, the train suffers delays on one of the most crowded rail networks in the world and of course you got to get to and from the train station by a bus service that doesn't connect and the bicycle... actually that one is pretty good a very straight line with just one big pothole with no lights around it.
And SUV's are not just another car. Forget for a moment the type of driver inside of them who tend to be major assholes, two SUV's passing each other in a narrow street, and old european cities are nothing but narrow streets, and the cars typically slow down to pass each other. They take just that bit more space say a meter in a bumper to bumper traffic jams. 4 SUV's and you could have fitted a whole extra car in the extra space taken by a SUV. Parking is the same. The drivers feel safer so take more risks, not only does this make the risk similar again but the death toll on pedestrians and cyclist increases thanks to the SUV driver.
London had the congestion charging and despite that fact that it was universally hated (or so the popular press tell us) it worked. The difference is staggering. But it wasn't popular. ANY law will have opponents. If you try to find a way to get anything done that won't upset anyone, you will never get anything done and THAT will REALLY upset people.
You just want an excuse, because ONE SUV was once found to actually have a full load for a work commute, ALL SUV's should be allowed to drive with one person in congested city centers totally unfit for such large cars. NIMBY must be your middle name.
Oh and a congestion tax would also hit low pollution vehicles. So if I drive a small electric car filled with passengers I get to pay the same as a SUV with just the driver. SMART!
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
You know, everything is not about America. As shoking as it may be to you, most of the time, America is not even thought about when making a decision.
They have cunnincly replicated the drive-thru setup but when the little window opens a French man shoots you through the head, scoops out your liver and turns it into pate. It was widely protested in the EU as inhumane until it was pointed out only the Touristus Americanus falls into this trap. The American ambassador was asked for comments but he replied he couldn't answer the phone now because he was in the line at a drive-thru and hasn't been heard from since.
Slashdot wishes it to be known that is does not condone the wholesale slaughter of Americans for their livers or other organs and that anyone who puts this idea into practice must do so without express approval from the world wide community of food lovers.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Now, this might sound like a good idea, but there are a couples problems with it, in short: it doesn't seem to help at all
Reasons for it not working are for example:
Now, while it doesn't actually work, the whole ordeal is causing several problems... for example:
So in essence, there is no proof (rather the opposite) that the introduction of the zones has helped any, there's lots of problems caused by the laws, and as usual politics will not drop this crap ... probably industry lobbyists would complain what they paid all the money for if it were dropped ... :(
Are we reading the same article summary? The threshold is based on emissions, not a particular body style, e.g. "is thing X an SUV or not." The conundrums you posed are moot.
The safety issue really concerns me. I don't want people being forced by legislation to buy smaller, weaker cars, for city driving, because most people can only afford one car so they'll also be taking those same small, weak cars out on fast roads.
I'm a news photographer and I often attend accident scenes. As a rule, whenever there is an SUV involved, the occupants of the SUV survive and the occupants of the car _all_ die.
Renault Megane vs Range Rover. Both people in the Megane killed. Minor injuries in the Range Rover.
http://www.meejahor.com/wp-content/uploads/FatalcollisiononB9006CantraywoodtoCroyro_A156/FatalcollisionB9006CantraywoodtoCroyroad2.jpg
Vauxhall Corsa vs Mitsubishi Shogun. Both people in the Corsa killed. Injuries in the Shogun.
http://www.meejahor.com/wp-content/uploads/Newspaperphotosfromthelastfewmonths_CD67/A9Dalwhinniefatalcollision5of8.jpg
Vauxhall Astra vs Mitsubishi Shogun. All three people in the Astra killed. Minor injuries in the Shogun.
http://www.meejahor.com/wp-content/uploads/818q3025.jpg
What they really need to start buying is the first car with a moustache; the Hammerhead Eagle i-Thrust AKA Geoff.
Autocar Review
But it does:
a) reduce the number of things to collide with, and
b) reduce the number of things that will collide with you and drive like they have right of way all the time.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Does your definition of "you" include plumbers, gardeners, families with more than one small child per adult, handicapped, people with regular commute outside main train/bus routes?
From Popular Mechanics magazine, January 1905, p. 119:
Many of the mail wagons in Paris are now electric-propelled vehicles, weighing 4,200 pounds, and carry a load of 1,100 pounds of mail. Storage batteries weighing 1,320 pounds furnish current sufficient to last for a 37-mile trip. The Motor Age says the new wagons carry twice as much mail as the former horse-drawn vehicles and travel much faster.
What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
The project is not targeted at SUV, they want to rate each car and ban everything above a level, which they have not decided yet. The test project is not going to start before mid-2012, and they would use traffic cameras.
And no, there isn't any rush for electric car yet here, there are some Toyota Pryus Hybrids, mainly cabs, nothing much.
sources : leparisien.fr, AFP
Regular commute outside the main train/bus routes?? Have you *ever* been to Paris? :P You'd be hard pressed to find a route not covered by metro or RER, not to mention buses..
..as a 5+ year resident of paris, I recall seeing a Hummer twice - and it was the same one.
Paris has never been a city of big cars, simply because you can't drive them - the streets are too narrow, parking becomes completely impossible, and they're generally not at all favoured as cars.
While it's true there's a creep of luxury 'smaller' 4WD (Porche Cayenne etc) - being new, they're generally more efficent than the 2-stroke mopeds buzzing around, for example.
Such a ban is as much to facilitate traffic flow than save the environment, I believe.
(And PS: there hasn't been an 'rush of electric car purchases' - smaller cars have always been popular.)
According to Wikipedia, the CR-V uses about 11 L/100 km. How is that better than most cars? I'm not sure I want to what kind of monster you're driving around in if you consider that good...
Gather fifty smokers, shove them in a garage, and tell them to chain smoke for twenty minutes. In another garage, turn on a gasoline-powered car and leave it running for twenty minutes. Which would you rather enter?
Are the 50 smoker's French? If so I might opt for the carbon monoxide poisoning.
Residents and travelers have responded by buying thousands of electric cars, including the low-speed fiberglass G-Wiz — despite major safety concerns with the vehicle."
No, residents have not responded by buying thousands of electric cars, because this decision is NEW.
Instead, french people have bought thousands of electric cars, because there is a tax gift of 1500 euros when you replace your old vehicle with a new electric or hybrid one.
This tax reduction will disappear on the 1st of January 2011, that's why people rush to buy a new car, especially in Paris.
BTW, using a SUV in Paris is a crazy idea, since it's perceived as a lack of respect for other drivers. Streets in Paris are very small, parking places are very difficult to find for normal vehicles, and impossible for larger ones.
Possessing a SUV is like saying: hey, I've got a ton of money, since my car will suck a lot of gas, and I have my own private parking for both my work and my home.
Driving in Paris requires a lot of attention and energy, since it's very tiring, and drivers are very nervous, and are not friendly when driving.
In 2005 a clandestine group known as Les Dégonflés, The Deflated, began a campaign of sabotage against SUVs in the City.
"Under cover of night, Marrant's troops target Jeep Cherokees, Porsche Cayennes and other four-wheel-drive vehicles parked on the tree-lined avenues and cobblestoned lanes of wealthy neighborhoods. The eco-guerrillas deflate tires without damaging them, smear doors with mud and paste handbills on windshields proclaiming that the vehicles are dangerous, polluting behemoths that do not belong in the city."
And now, far from criminalizing their behavior, the government of the City is going to ratify it. Lessons to be learned, here: Direct Action gets the goods.
As you and many others perhaps have falsely presumed, this may be some kind of attack on SUV's or American culture. That is just bad journalism and media manipulation to make a bland article more interesting. The ban specifically targets any vehicle which crosses a certain Co2 threshold per km travelled. Of course the author chose to headline SUV's and feature a massive SUV picture in order to falsely manipulate you into believing its an attack on US culture and judging by many posts here its clearly worked. The article also makes it very unclear if London's congestion charges or these new French ban on high emission vehicles is the cause of the buying of thousands of new electric cars.
Maybe things have changed in the last few years, but I spent a while in France a few years ago and for 2 weeks didn't see a SINGLE suv or pickup truck. Neither in the city, nor elsewhere in the entire country. In fact, the only thing larger than the luxury BMW's (cars) were all commercial trucks, and I never saw those in the city.
Does your definition of "you" include plumbers, gardeners, families with more than one small child per adult, handicapped, people with regular commute outside main train/bus routes?
Sorry, but there are lots of good station wagons/estate cars that the handicapped and big families use. They don't drive SUVs. They never needed and paid the money for that pile of metal with storage capacity equalling the former mentioned cars. Gardeners and plumbers drive small vans or station wagons, both yield a better price/milage for the storage they can hold.
People who already need a car and own one usually live outside town and park and switch to the metro before they get sucked in the traffic jam (You don't want to appear at random times for work, do you?). They usually own a small car or, if they have the money, a sports car. There is no room in the city you can't reach by public transport.
For handicapped (they have a permit anyway) the renault kangoo with built in lift is one of the cars of choice. But in the end I think that the navigation systems need to be fixed. The short route isn't always the best one. I know smaller towns with a motorway around, but the main street is still considered the best way for transit (same speed limits). They just have to deal with less lanes, traffic lights and streetcars (Not to mention second line parking and so on) in town. Somebody should tune the little gadgets to stay out of the city if the target isn't in it.
When how is that a problem?
They can do like lot of people do: They can use their car to reach the nearest train station and from there, use trains/RER/subways/buses etc. TFA doesn't state that SUV will be banned outside of Paris too.
On a side note, I live near Paris, I work in Paris. I don't have a car, and that's fine.
I'm not saying that car is bad. When you have to move furniture, or stuff, or in some other situations, car might actually be the wise choice.
But, from my experience, that's not how it's used. There are like 9 out of 10 cars used for only driving 1 person. And that's sad. I'm breathing this air.
So when it comes to diminution pollution, i'm all for it.
IMHO, this is more of a PR stunt against American culture .
What a load of self absorbed crap.
The qualification factors are CO2 emissions per mile. As they should be. Not car shape. You think US invented the SUV? No just the dumb and incongruent name (I presume).
Don't get me wrong the shape and size are both important factors in European annoyance at there rise in popularity in our narrow overcrowded streets.
They also get refered to as Chelsea Tractors. I've lived in Chelsea. You're right to ask who would want to ride a huge SUV there. Sadly the answer is Every dumb selfish twat. If its bigger my children will be safer (and the neighbours' less so, but I don't care), my ego will be better supported, my status further bolstered.... You have a concentration of rich, self-centered people in city centers. Which is why Chelsea has the highest concentration of 4x4 owners per capita in the UK, despight one of the lowest snow and flooding rating. And next to no mud.
This is not an attack on American culture, but on selfish individuals. The fact that you identify with these individuals in the way you do, is potentially illustrative of your own understanding or perception of your countries culture.
Because you can - or because you should?
When some nub is ruining your line, of course you're going to yell anything to make them move, and your fun continue.
I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
Don't worry, your constant panicking about your health will kill you by way of high blood pressure and stroke long before the cancer can get you.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
SUVs are trucks. They get truck tax breaks, truck emissions loopholes, and they're the big, powerful cars we call trucks. But somehow they do not require the truck license to drive them, which requires taking a different test for handling bigger, more powerful cars in some trickier maneuvers.
If all those soccer moms, yuppies and other people driving a car too big for them had to get a truck license instead of the drivers license they already got in high school, most of them would not. And there would be a whole lot less SUVs driving around. And most of their drivers, when they cut us off, would at least have the skills to do so more safely.
Such a simple change: require the truck license to drive the truck. Saving lives and sanity, not to mention fuel supplies.
--
make install -not war
The definition of "you" is a generalization. He meant most people.
Oh, and by the way, plumbers, gardeners, families with more than one small child per adult, handicapped, and people that commute outside main train/bus routes don't need an SUV. There are alternatives that can do the job better, with less pollution and higher return on money spent on fuel.
Remember, Europe is not the same as US.
And a final question - have you ever been to Paris and experienced the traveling in the city?
This is blinging
"people with regular commute outside main train/bus routes?"
See, that's the thing. I don't think such places *exist* in Paris. It has a proper transit system.
And as for your list, I suspect that people with genuine industrial/commercial needs can use a plain old truck (I've seen plenty of those in Paris), and families with more than one small child per adult can either muster their family troop on the transit system (bus or rail -- I saw plenty of examples of that in Paris too), or buy another type of vehicle. SUVs are an inefficient way to do it. I don't understand why people who are handicapped would need an SUV. Most of the people I know that have to transport wheelchairs just use regular cars or a van, modified with different controls and to make handling the wheelchair easier. The height of a typical SUV isn't ideal for that purpose.
Get over SUVs. They are a car that wants to be a truck, or a truck that wants to be a car -- a bad design that fuses the undesirable aspects of one (poor fuel economy and large size) with the other, for reasons that have more to do with human psychology than anything practical.
Posting from the UK. What the heck is a drive thru restaurant?
It's like a drive thru liquor store but it sells food. Yeah, not as much fun, I agree...
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!