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Low Quality Alloy Cause of Shuttle Main Tank Issue
BJ_Covert_Action writes "NASA engineers have finally discovered the root cause of the cracks that have been found on space shuttle Discovery's main external tank. The main tank, one of the 'Super Lightweight Tank' models developed by Lockheed-Martin, employs an aluminum-lithium alloy developed by Lockheed-Martin specifically for this application. The new alloy is used in various structural stringers throughout the SLWT design. Unfortunately, the batch of this alloy used in the tank that is currently mated with the Discovery shuttle appears to be of low quality. The alloy used in the stringers has a 'mottled' appearance, compared to the nominal appearance typically used in the main tank stringers (see picture in article). This appearance is indicative of a fracture threshold that is significantly lower than typical. NASA has determined, through testing, that this low grade alloy has only 65% of the fracture strength of the nominal alloy typically used. NASA engineers have devised a potential fix to the problem that they are currently testing to ensure the repair will cause no unintended consequences. NASA plans to have the Discovery shuttle ready to launch again by February 24th, 2011."
Duct Tape!
In an ideal world, wouldn't the fix be "Pick up the phone, scream at the contractor for trying to pull this shit on you, and demand a part that actually works to spec, right. the. fuck. yesterday."?
It seems like the contract must have been poorly written(and/or a blatant giveaway to our precious, precious defense contractors and their poor starving shareholders) if the solution they are ending up with is "have in-house engineers get their Macguyver on and make the gigantic tank-o'-rocket fuel on a manned vessel work somehow."
See: Titanic.
Not typical U.S quality. Typical U.S government contracts. Government agencies opt for cheapest price instead of quality usually. I remember when COD4 came out i was working on some contracts for the army and i saw this quote. Could never keep myself from laughing at how true it was. “Never forget that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder.”
"Get away from that, you don't know the components!"
"'American' components!? 'Russian' components!? All made in Taiwan!"
The bad alloy is distinct enough from the good one to tell at a glance from a low res photo.
And it even seems that they had records of the unusual appearance. So the materials came in, somebody noticed and documented that this batch looked funny, but nobody thought to investigate if they might have got something other than what was specified?
It's interesting that a quality alloy simply put at a lower altitude would cause an issue. You'd think it was something more obvious, like a missing hyphen.
they are currently testing to ensure the repair will cause no unintended consequences
Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
That this is more of a "make-work" project than anything else. Last shuttle flight is coming up, then everyone goes home. What better way to give them all a 3 month bonus than to find some previously-undiscovered issue.
These aerospace materials are extensively tested, analyzed and inspected. Paperwork with melt number, lot number and names of everyone that ever touched the material are kept.
Decide for yourself...
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
That's the Government's stupidity for not putting a performance clause into the contract
And you know that because...?
I work as a QA engineer for a large defense contractor. One thing I can tell you is that we issue a lot of documents requiring our plants and our suppliers to follow a metric shitload of MIL, ISO, EN and whatnot standards, for the very purpose of meeting stringent quality requirements set forth in the contracts. It takes months, sometimes years for our products just to pass qualification and type-approval tests, and our products don't even go in space.
In short, you're talking out of your ass.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
False.
Quality has been a part of every government requirement I have ever seen.
Price is another factor as well.
But hey, lets not let facts stand in the way of urban myths and hyperbole.
NASA quality has had a very demanding view on quality. No, it's not perfect. Unfortunately, when it's not perfect and something fails, it's a big deal. When that happens, no one seem to remember all the success.
The singles biggest point of quality failure is no bid contracts.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
the production folks at lockheed martin, one of the largest us govt contractors, might want to look into it.
simply amazing that they weren't performing acceptance tests on each batch of material.
and shame on NASA for not making them.
they should both know better.
Absolute statements are never true
35% is very high, and it increase the risk enough. Even with perfect materials, there is always a risk.
Clearly you have no clue on engineering shit the goes into and returns from space.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
That line is much, much older than COD4.
"Get away from that, you don't know the components!"
"'American' components!? 'Russian' components!? All made in Taiwan!"
Unfortunately Taiwan outsourced much of their manufacturing to mainland China.
mfwright@batnet.com
Aren't manufacturer defects generally covered by a warranty? It should be replaced for free!
I hope this comment is well received... I could have moderated instead!
Persecutors will be violated!
Return it and demand a replacement/refund.
Rules of Conduct:
#1 - The DM is always right.
#2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
If they supplied faulty parts make them replace it or sell their company to someone who will.
Try and remember that a significant percentage of slashdot denizens weren't even *born* when the shuttle started flying. Now.... get off my lawn.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
I like how there are folks complaining about NASA when the tank and alloy were manufactured by Lockheed-Martin....
Motorcycles, Robots, Space Gossip and More!
Of course. Was never implied that COD4 made it, just that i chuckled every time i saw it.
It's metallurgy.
Well, rocket science metallurgy, but still!
A contractor provides inferior quality alloy for a lightweight fuel tank. So NASA engineers come up with a system to brace said fuel tank, reinforcing it and fixing the problem.
The lightweight fuel tank now weighs as much as a regular fuel tank, when you include the reinforcement, but at 3 times the cost. But don't worry, people stayed employed at your expense, and that's all that matters. Yay!
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
But if politicians can't grab bits of the funding for their own districts, won't the entire economy collapse?
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
No, as a metal worker I can say that the mild steel, stainless, mag and aluminum that our shop gets from China is FULL of impurity. I can tell if the steel is from America vs. China / Mexico by the amount of crap that sticks to my tungsten. If after a rod of GOOD filler rod and no dips you need to re-grind your tungsten, it isn't a pure aloy. The issue gets worse and worse the more the more specialized the alloy. Having worked in airspace, if you don't dip your tung in the Al alloy you should NEVER have spit, and should have a weld stronger than the base metal.
That is unless someone has some fun with you.... Try a simple exchange of magnisum filler rod for Al. Welds the same, however the bead just falls off when done. If you try this just know when to run.
Math is like sex. People who get it are popular in class, people who don't are not.
me about space flight, is that I'm sitting on top of something that went to the LOWEST bidder. One of the original Mercury astronauts.
At least they found it in time! God knows how many more shuttles could have gone up with these bad tanks!
I am an engineer in the supply side for the nuclear power industry, we have to retrain your kind extensively - our paperwork is measured in avoirdupois kiloshitloads. Good paperwork is no substitute for good quality. The process has to be designed so that it will will consistently deliver the intended product, not merely meet specifications. I would bet that the CMTRs (Certified Material Test Reports) for the batch of stringers that have failures show the material met specs. Meeting specs is what QA is all about, but the right specs and requirements (often supplementary) must to be imposed, and in this case they probably were not. The contractor delivered a defective assembly, and no amount of paperwork is going to change that. One can only speculate on whether there were documents falsified or the process was insufficiently rigorous.
The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
Ever pulled together the correlation between ALL external fuel tank issues and the contract being moved to Lockheed? Yes the foam as well. Somebody has to say it.
They where even granted a exception by the EPA on having to switch to a different foam, but they did it anyhow.
No conspiracy here, just a Bird Colonel that favors Lockheed.
Fascinating.
Since these facilities were opened, we've added comsat, gps, ISS, and countless military/industrial/commercial space programs. NASA provides data for everything from urban planning to weather to crop planning and cultivation, and is involved in deep space research, materials science, world climate research and god knows what else.
But Apollo and a closing space shuttle program mean these facilities should be mothballed.
God I hate the stupid that comes out when slashdotters start speaking authoritatively about NASA. "It's not like it's rocket science..."
Non-disclaimer: I have never earned a dime for/from anything NASA-related.
I'd have to say that the people who try to bypass the standards and the corporate whores who defend them are the ones talking out of their asses. Then again, you weren't interested in a truthful answer, were you?
So, who's talking out of their ass again?
You are. Try to keep up.
To top it off they slap ITAR on it to make it a pain in the balls to sell it to anyone BUT the govt.
I wonder if this will deter future contracts and maybe even make stocks go down.
Uhh, it's not a ferry boat. Its a fucking space shuttle. The goal is to get into space, not to meet some vague undergrad textbook factor of safety rule of thumb you read as a nooblet. Also, they are not buying bar stock from McMaster-Carr, they're whipping up batches of engineered materials for a specific application. This application is about as performance demanding as things get, the runs are small, the costs are high, and there is not a lot of room for error. Yet man is still not god, so errors happen despite the best efforts of a lot of dedicated people. If you are a real engineer, and you have never made a mistake, then count your blessings instead of acting like a cock. If you're not a real engineer then STFU.
Movie quote **WHOOOOOOOOSSSSHHHH**
Armageddon
Typing this to get past the lameness filter.
You're blaming "corporate whores" as if you know for certain this is some sort of intentional error arranged around benefiting a company or people within that company. How do you know it's not simple human error? True, I'm sure these parts go through strict quality control during and after manufacturing, but what if some poor slob just screwed up? Put a decimal point in the wrong place? Miscalibrated the test gear before testing the sample? There are a billion different ways this could have gone wrong without any malfeasance or "whoring" going on. Your comment is pure speculation put forth as if it were an absolute. Typically that's the result of someone with an ideological chip on their shoulder instead of someone interested in finding out the truth of the matter.
The oxygen tank explosion that nearly doomed Apollo 13 was due to human error, equipment miscalibration, latent design faults, and unforeseen circumstances that all culminated at the wrong place at the wrong time. There was no "corporate whoring" going on then, and safety controls were damned strict back then as well -- as strict as their technology and know-how would allow. Shit happens. It doesn't mean some greedy corporation is out there trying to kill astronauts to make a buck.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Obviously publiclurker is one of those many slashdotters who has never made a mistake, and so has no understanding of the concept. This talent is the reason why many on slashdot don't read TFA - they don't need to, as with their omnipotence they know what the article is about without reading it. :)
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
To be fair, that's the Government's fault for not putting a quality clause on posting to the Internet.
Then there wouldn't be anything on here to read!
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
Space exploration costs. Money or lives. Your pick.
During the 60s, the US opted for the former, the Russians often for the latter. Who got to the moon?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Quality is, but quality control is. The vast majority of procurement departments will take the option of ensuring that a company has the right to bid on a contract by meeting the quality requirements set out. These then get written into the contract and the buck stops there. The threat of potential legal action then somehow magically is supposed to ensure that all products will be perfect.
A critical material order should be held on delivery pending a independent positive material identification. Though admittedly that would be a bit difficult if the material is fully developed by the contractor delivering it. The number of times I have ordered Hastelloy C-263 and received Hastelloy C-276 is astounding. In some cases the equipment is even labeled with the incorrect metallurgy, and this isn't from some dodgy underhanded Chinese dealer either, it's from a quality American company well known in the industry.
No, I've made plenty of mistakes. I also test things and don't ship the screwups hoping no-one else will notice. While it's been a couple of decades since I've done government work, The spec's I had to follow were such that actually testing to them would have shown up any problems that would be bad enough to be visually detectable.
Let's light this candle...
Oh, wait...
"It seems that we are at the age where life stops giving us things, and starts taking them away..." Indiana Jones