US Authorities GPS Tagging Duped Indian Students

tanveer1979 writes "Indian students duped by Tri-Valley University in California have been fitted with GPS devices by US immigration authorities. Scores of Indian students were caught in a scam where the university violated immigration norms and illegally got the students F1 visa and immigration status. To keep a track on the movements of the students, the authorities have fitted them with GPS devices. This is spiraling into a major diplomatic row between India and the USA, with the former calling the practice inhuman and unwanted."

Comments

No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[elrous0]

They should be given plane tickets.

It should never have come down to a controversy over GPS devices because they should have been deported immediately when it was discovered that their visas were fraudulent. Goodbye, sorry about the scam, enjoy your trip back home, the ticket's on us.

Being duped (and their claims of being completely unwilling and unaware participants in the scam are already dubious at best) doesn't mean you get to remain in the country. Once back in India, they can reapply to a real university and get a real visa, if they wish. They can also be sent a refund of any "tuition" left over after this fake school's accounts were frozen. Beyond that, we don't owe them anything.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Moryath]

Sadly, this level of common sense will never take hold in the US.

For all the fact that the US is overwhelmingly screaming for the deportation of illegals - no matter whether they come from china, india, mexico, canada, guatemala, somewhere in europe or africa - a certain political party sees illegals as their next voting bloc.

My city has a major problem with guatemalan illegals - specifically, they have organized into very successful burglary rings that the police are often afraid to tackle because they're hauling semiautomatic weaponry.

It's not about "mexicans", it's not about race... it's about crime.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[shriphani]

Correct. Students wanted an American education, students came to America, got screwed. Now comply with the law. Asking to be treated like kings is just plain stupid especially when it was up to the student to verify how legit their "university" is.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Weezul]

I'd imagine INS felt they needed more evidence against the university, overboard or not. All these students should be well paid for their time working as informants against the university, keep their work paychecks, and be refunded their 'tuition'. Send them home happy with a "thank you come again", not a deportation stamp. And then extract massive fines from this for-profit university that more than cover these expenses.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[anyGould]

I think the government does owe them something - the school was listed as an approved site by the government, after all:

SEVIS is a web-based technology maintained by the US to track and monitor schools and programs, students, exchange visitors and their dependents, while they are legally enrolled in the US education system. Indeed, Tri-Valley University is among the SEVIS Approved Schools listed on the US ICE website. Authorities have since shut down the university.

So they came here, partly because the Government lists them as an approved school. Not their fault that the school is no longer approved.

But sending them home does seem preferable to the electronic-ball-and-chain. But then, American government is fond of the Guilty Until We Decide You're Guilty method...

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, please. BOTH parties love the undocumented albeit for differing reasons.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing you actually meant 'fully automatic weaponry'. If police were reluctant to deal with criminals armed with semiautomatic weaponry, they might as well fold up shop.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

in fact they might want the education so much that they would willingly participate in fraudulent activities.

also worthy of note is that they will most likely be eligible to get some student work permit, get a job, and support themselves and a family back home.

it wouldn't be too far fetched if they actually paid extra for such an opportunity.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Dunbal]

Students wanted an American education, students came to America, got screwed.

Thus obtaining an "American" education. I frankly don't see what the problem is.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[eepok]

It has nothing to do with political power/votes. It has to do with (1) the cost of sending them back, (2) the potential for them to add to the economy (even if illegally), and (3) the cost to the economy if they all suddenly disappeared.

If the taxpayer were to pay for the rounding up and deportation of everyone in the country illegally, we'd not only have a MASSIVE bill on our hands but a ton of businesses would fail in the following days.

As much as "DO SOMETHING NOW"-sayers like to scream, they just don't want to understand that the nation is built on the exploitation of people desperate to make a living for their children. Gardeners, janitors, textiles, builders, cooks, cleaners, harvesters, etc. -- the "dirty job" industry would quickly collapse, entire crops would rot until reliable, knowledgeable workers can be found and employed; the stock market would drop with it (thanks to interdependent investment); and we'd still have unemployment because there wouldn't be a system in place to give those open jobs to the willing-to-work unemployed.

You're right. It's not about race, but it's not about crime, either. It's about MONEY. And the biggest obstacle to getting a fix through Congress is the "DO SOMETHING NOW" types shooting down pragmatic approaches such as plans that would allow amnesty for select illegal immigrants... like some of the ones in the farming industry.

"NO!!! I want all-or-nothing!! ALL OR NOTHING! DO SOMETHING NOW!"

Note: Semi-automatic just means anything but a bolt/lever/pump action firearm. This can be a simple pistol.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm more concerned with the fact that this wasn't caught at all by immigration services or DHS. Almost a decade after 9/11 and this crap is still happening? US border policy is swiss cheese. WTF!?!

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Weezul]

It's infinitely more important to nab the university than the kids. If we em' to testify against the university, well shit give em' 5 year work visas conditional upon that testimony. I'd imagine the GPS devices were used to evidence so that INS didn't need to keep them here for testimony. If so, yes that dumb, let earn some money here in exchange for testimony. Don't treat em' like cattle.

INS most likely nabbed them at the border, maybe even planning it when they were in India. INS should've promised them at minimum immunity form a deportation stamp in exchange for helping to collect evidence against this for-profit university and their employers. Ideally, they should be sent home with a reasonable paycheck for working as a police informer, and no deportation stamp, assuming we don't need their testimony in court.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

And how do you expect these fines to be levied? id wager that any funds the university has would only cover a FRACTION of said expenses? you purpose they grow money on tree's?

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's not about "mexicans", it's not about race... it's about crime."

Now you only need to show that these duped Indian students are involved in crime.

Besides, that other political party also likes illegal immigrants, because those are cheap labor.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Duradin]

Semi-automatic is soooo much more dangerous than those double action revolvers.

FYI: semi-automatic: you pull the trigger, it fires once and can fire again when the trigger is pulled again until the ammo runs out.

Double action: you pull the trigger, it cocks the hammer, rotates the cylinder, releases the hammer, and fires once and can fire again when the trigger is pulled until the ammo runs out.

Effective difference: ammo capacity.

A .22 semi-automatic is not more dangerous than a double action .454 revolver. Please stop using semi-automatic as a scare word.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Lumpy]

As a native American friend of mine says....

Yup, All you illegals get the HELL out of my country.

We should not have let that first boatload of you even set foot on our land.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[digitig]

If you watch the report (yes, yes, I know) you will find that they do face deportation. The GPS tags are presumably to make sure the authorities can find them when the ticket is arranged, and is probably cheaper and more humane than keeping them incarcerated. There's scope for a further diplomatic row, though, about whether the US did all it could to prevent the scam. Others have said that the students should have checked that the university was legitimate, but it was listed on the SEVIS database as legitimate which is about as much of a check as they could realistically do from India. I bet the US government will get its taxes from the fake university before the students get their money back, so the government will be seen to be benefiting from the scam.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

Follow the money and you'll find out the political truth.

We have this bizarre situation where the Republicans are claiming they want to throw out the illegals, while their handler, fast food, low cost stores, agribusiness, etc. want to hire as many as they can to keep wages low. (Who do you think picks most of the fruits and vegetables in the US??).

Meanwhile, the Democrats are calling for amnesty, etc. when the unions, a significant supporter, don't want illegals taking low wage jobs and so bringing down the wage scale for all manual labor.

In short, both sides are talking up the issue and pacifying their supporters with symbolic legislation (remember the legislation to build hundreds of miles of border fence that passed, but, somehow was never funded).

Frankly, nobody gives a political shit about gun-toting illegal Guatemalans. Only political trouble in that direction.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[BBTaeKwonDo]

I second the doubting of the "I didn't know the university was fake" argument:

Investigations by US authorities found that while students were admitted to residential and on-line courses of the university and on paper lived in California, in reality they worked illegally in various parts of the country as far as Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Texas.

Consider also a related article which gives the university's side of the story

"Starting in April, one of student assistants Anji Reddy, who worked in TVU administrative office, teamed with another student Ram Krista Karra, who also has a consultant company, conducting a large cheating scheme by asking students to make tuition payment into Ram Krista Karra's personal account in exchange for student I-20 and CPT approval. TVU has fired these two individuals," the email said.

So we've got a bunch of people who are supposed to be attending university in California but who are actually working in other states (the visa only allows on-campus employment of less than 20 hours per week) and are paying into someone's personal account. Either these students are the most naive, trusting bunch of people on Earth, or some (or more likely, all) of them were in on the scam.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[A nonymous Coward]

We should not have let that first boatload of you even set foot on our land.

According to a book (Guns, Germs, Steel?), the only reason the Pilgrims could land at Plymouth in 1620 was because the tribes living there along the coast had been wiped out by disease (smallpox etc) brought in by earlier visitors, mostly fishing boats needing fresh water, who were routinely driven away by the natives as soon as they were found. One of these earlier expeditions had kidnapped "Squanto" and taken him back to England, where he learned English well enough to convince later expeditions (the Mayflower, I presume) to take him with them as an interpreter.

So, tell your friend that his ancestors did keep the first boatloads from landing, at least in New England, but a few illegals still managed to get ashore long enough to leave disease behind.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[interkin3tic]

They should be given plane tickets. It should never have come down to a controversy over GPS devices because they should have been deported immediately when it was discovered that their visas were fraudulent. Goodbye, sorry about the scam, enjoy your trip back home, the ticket's on us.

It's the ones under investigation. It would be a bigger crime to round all the students up and put them on a plane, when some of the visas might be valid. Kind of ties into that whole "innocent before proven guilty" thing we like.

Or, perhaps more likely since they're not citizens and we've thrown that out long ago even -for- citizens, it's just that ICE doesn't have the time, money, or competence to put a dozen students on a plane in less than 2 months when there's no actual crime committed and they can't just drive a bus down to Mexico.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[c6gunner]

That's stupid. We introduced the idea of "country" to them. Nomadic tribes don't generally hold land, and non-nomadic tribes hold very small pieces of land. To pretend there was one "Native American People" who owned all of North America is ridiculous. It like some guy from Republic of Seychelles telling you to get the hell out of Sudan.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Moryath]

Isn't it nice how the orwellian newspeak keeps creeping into the debate?

The legal term is illegal alien. As in:

- Alien: (n) a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization ( distinguished from citizen).
- Illegal: (adj) forbidden by law or statute.

In other words: illegal alien: a foreigner who has entered or resides in a country unlawfully or without the country's authorization.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

I imagine they're afraid because there's no unarmed 65 year olds, deaf woodcarvers, small dogs, guys holding golfclubs or other nonthreatening people to shoot. Shows how courageous and risky the job really is when they have no desire to go after actual threats, yet have no problem killing people who pose little to no threat.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

It's infinitely more important to nab the university than the kids.

Ethically, yes. However, legit or not, there is still an incentive to "inject" their tuition fees into the US economy.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[chrisj_0]

t the police are often afraid to tackle because they're hauling semiautomatic weaponry

you are kidding right? or do you know what this term means

A semiauto gun is one that doesn't need to be cocked in between firing rounds. These have been around since the turn of the 20th century. And don't get me started on the made up term "Assault Weapons"

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

A .22 semi-automatic is not more dangerous than a double action .454 revolver. Please stop using semi-automatic as a scare word.

At range when surprise isn't an element the .454 may have an advantage in hitting power. Close up though? That little .22 isn't any slouch. A .22 semi auto is far more concealable than a double action .454 revolver. You're not suddenly going to whip that .454 out and surprise someone. That little "not more dangerous" .22 can appear seemingly out of nowhere and pop off several rounds before the target is fully aware of what is happening.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[brainboyz]

Effective difference: trigger pull weight, not ammo. There are plenty of double action only auto-loaders. But, I agree with what you were trying to get across.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[brainboyz]

And lets not forget immigration wasn't on the law books at that point.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Duradin]

The "semi-automatic is a scare word and we want to keep it like that" nutter mods are out and about.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[peragrin]

to pretend they weren't here first, and weren't divided into various states(groups of tribes), and counties(tribes) is a little bit deceiving. While nomadic they covered certain regions, and in several cases many small tribes came together in one giant tribe of tribes.

You are also forgetting that you maybe a citizen of the USA, but you are also a citzen of the state your in, and a citizen of the county your in, and a citizen of the city/town/village your in. Given the fact that 40% of the population moves to a new city at least once in their life I would say some are still nomadic in a modern sense.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[commandermonkey]

And that crime group is probably leaving decapitated bodies in the desert?

Where do you live that police won't investigate crime because of semi-automatic weapons? And why do you think that 'illegals' are the only criminals with them? Every US city has an illegal narcotics run by our very own citizens and different members of those groups are packing much worse than semi-automatic weapons. Applying your logic about why the 'Guatemalan burglars' are so successful would imply that crime in the US could be easily cut down by making all semi-automatic weapons illegal, rounding up those guns and preventing the sale further in the US. Personally I am on-board with your idea(and I bet the Mexican government would be as well since most of the guns that are fueling their drug war come from the US.)

Its not immigrants it's about class.

Why do you think crime groups are started in the first place? Do you believe that someone wakes up one morning and says 'I have a good paying job and will be able to provide for my family, but you know, I really want to stick it to whity today so I think I will boost his 31" TV that he is so proud of!' Yes, that must be it.

More than anything else, the US tries to export it's ideal. The two chickens in every pot, a good paying job for all who want one, freedom from civil unrest, and the promise of a better tomorrow for anyone willing to work for it. And you know what? People, some living under oppression; others close to starvation; still more bound by a caste system they will never escape; many who look around at their current community and see no work; all these people and more fall for it! Lured by the ideals enshrined on the Statue of Liberty they see America as a shining city on the hill, a refuge for those who persecuted and want a better life for their families. They leave their loved ones and risk death or enslavement all for the chance to work below minimum wage, at some shit job you couldn't pay a US citizen to do and they have no recourse to report labor violations or crimes committed against them for fear of being sent back to the miserable life they came from.

I have no doubt that some who come here in search of a better life, get a glimpse of what the US really is and out of despair and desperation turn to crime. The doubt doesn't exist because many of our natural born citizens are forced to a path of crime for the same reasons.

You want to curb immigration? Stop talking about the American Dream; Stop writing about it; Stop making movies and TV shows about it; and please stop teaching our children about it. Instead show the images of the poor standard of living that most Americans live under. Write about the crappy health care that most receive(those that can afford to anyway) and how many of those issues are caused by not being able to afford proper nutrition. Rewrite sitcoms to show families that unemployed/underemployed because our primary/secondary education system does a poor job at training people to work in a modernizing world. Teach our children that if you work a 40+ hour a week job(if you can find it) in most jobs you will never be able to comfortably retire without assistance. Make movies where the hero is a middle class salaried employee who can't get ahead and, rather than examine the system that is holding him down, inexplicably blames the lowest class who is suffering a worse fate than he is.

In addition to scaring people away from immigrating to the US you have the added bonus of bringing attention to real problems for this country and not the pretend ones of illegals decapitating bodies in the desert or terrorist anchor babies.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Mister Whirly]

The two are not mutually exclusive either. I own a semi-automatic pistol that is also double action - you do not need to cock the hammer (or rack the slide) to fire the first round - it will cock and release the hammer with a trigger pull. Obviously after the first shot the hammer is cocked back when the slide ejects the spent round, so it is double-action on the first shot, and single action on the rest.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh please. Newspeak? It's just another term for the same thing, not some way to subvert the public's knowledge. Let's be serious.

If you want to be an ass about it, I could point out that "illegal alien" isn't an accurate term either. They've committed an illegal act by being here, but the alien is not inherently "illegal". Would you call someone who's committed a crime an "illegal citizen"?

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[hey!]

Actually, giving them a plane ticket home would be better than treating them all like convicted child molesters. If they don't have mens rea (a guilty mind/criminal intent), they aren't criminals. They're people with incorrect immigration papers. So you say, "Gee, it's too bad your papers are screwed up, but you have to go home until you can get them straightened out. We'll give you a reasonable period to wrap up your affairs first of course. The people of the United States wish you well in all your future endeavors."

Treating people with respect costs less than treating them disrespectfully. And we want to treat these people with respect, because it is in our national interest to do so. India is the world's largest democracy. They aren't exactly an ally, but if you look at that part of the world, a strong, stable and generally cooperative country looks a lot better than a basket case ally that can transform overnight into an implacable enemy.

This is not about what we owe *them*. It's about what we owe ourselves.

The "solution" we ended up is the worst of all possible worlds. We're being provocatively harsh, *and they're still here*. We'd be better off just turning a blind eye to these people. Even if some of them ended up staying here indefinitely, that's not the end of the world, and it is certainly not worth inflaming the sensibilities of an important strategic and economic partner. People here in the US are pissed at Indians for doing exactly what we asked them to do. They sold us services under our free trade policies. They came here at our invitation to fill up H1B positions. And we're angry at *them* for the laws and policies we have enacted?

If it were up to me, I'd give these people the benefit of the doubt. I'd bend over backward to give them a chance to adjust their status, apply under a different visa program, or go home voluntarily. Why? Primarily because it's the decent, stand-up thing to do. But if that's not enough, it's the right thing to do for our national interests.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

+5 insightful indeed. You must work for ICE or support their tactics. I hope you get screwed by authoritay when you are a victim.

US government is responsible for admitting these people into the country. The university took the money and fooled the students. US government shutdown the university and calls these students illegals. Way to blame the victims morons.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[h4rr4r]

Oh noes semiautomatic. You mean normal fucking guns. One trigger pull = 1 bullet. The same guns the cops have, swat has full auto.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

A waste of a good American GPS unit.
I like to keep track of third world welfare cases by sending them back to their own countries.
Of course I understand that there is a huge waiting list of people wishing to score more Indian, Mexican, and Africans as neighbors (they are so law abiding and productive).

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it nice how the orwellian newspeak

Here's some newspeak for you: go fuck yourself.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you get to make immediate references to 1984.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[h4rr4r]

You can easily conceal a short .357 revolver. That is a way bigger deal than a semi .22.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

That's inaccurate. I am not a citizen of the state of California, I am a resident of the state of California. My citizenship is in the United States of America.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[spun]

Wow, so natives never fought each other over territory? And our Republic was not modeled after the Five Nations of the Iroquois Confederacy? And you further claim that there was at least some land in the Americas that was NOT claimed by a sovereign nation?

I thought they taught real history in Canada, not the bullshit revisionism they teach here, but I see that, at least on the subject of Native history, you guys lie through your teeth just like we do. I guess when the alternative is admitting that you are descended from thieving illegal immigrants with a passion for genocide (just like everyone else in the world, m'kay?) a lie just feels more warm and cuddly.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[spun]

Oh noes! Someone on the Internet disagrees with you! They must be nutters. Probably fascists too, am I right? They might even be... NAZIS! I mean, they modded you down for going on an off topic pro-gun rant, that sure sounds like Nazis to me!

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[elrous0]

As I noted, there is some evidence that these weren't just innocent victims. And, even if they were, that still doesn't make their visas (which were awarded under false pretenses by a fake "university") any more valid. This isn't about them being criminals, it's about them needing legitimate visas to stay here. As I noted, they're still free to apply for real ones once they're back home.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Alok]

Its very unlikely the students were unaware of what was going on, there are plenty of scams in India as well - this was surely an organized scheme with willing participants, who wanted to settle abroad and didn't care about breaking the law to do it. As an Indian, I guess our government has to make the requisite noises to show they care (hey they're politicians too!) - personally I hope these 'students' get on some watch list so they can't end up as 'naive victims' elsewhere too.

Oh and just an fyi, our foreign minister (S M Krishna) hails from Karnataka which is a neighbour of Andhra Pradesh (where all these poor innocent lambs came from). Not that I'm saying AP is full of scamsters - well it is, but that's true for most of India and the world ;-)

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Paracelcus]

"American government is fond of the Guilty Until We Decide You're Guilty method"

How's about a show trial where some pusgut, shitspouting, self-important, prosecutorial, pompous little shit, prances, mugs and pontificates, demonizing these or some other poor bastard who for one reason or another just happened to be the sacrificial "goat" to be made into a corpse/example/prisoner so that careers can be advanced and the semi-literate and only slightly/not interested can be (persuaded/lied to) that killing/imprisoning/torturing/deporting "funny looking" people or sometimes just anybody handy makes them "safer"!

"think of the children"
"protect our freedom"
"defend our nation"
"TERRORISTS"

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Kosi]

If I understand that correctly, these guys really wanted to study, but got duped by a fake university, run by americans. They should not be hassled in any way (like with GPS devices) just because they fell victim to american(!) criminals. Apologize to them for that, give them correct visas and send them to a real uni, what's the problem?

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Kosi]

It is common sense to hassle the victims of US criminals? That's a really distorted view! Common sense tells me that a gov't official should apologize to these poor guys and hand them correct visas, so they can go to a real university.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Mr. Slippery]

That's stupid. We introduced the idea of "country" to them. Nomadic tribes don't generally hold land, and non-nomadic tribes hold very small pieces of land.

That's stupid and ahistorical. Please go read about the Iroquois and the role they played in shaping our nation.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[c6gunner]

Uh. Did you actually READ that link?

Please, go check it out. It's quite informative. Then, after you wipe the sheepish grin off your face, we can talk about the Canadian education system.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[c6gunner]

From your wikipedia link:

'After the Iroquoian-speaking peoples coalesced as distinct tribes, based mostly in present-day central and upstate New York, in the 16th century or earlier they came together in an association known today as the Iroquois League, or the "League of Peace and Power".'

So, a mere 100 years after our ancestors got to the continent, some Indians in one part of one state managed to put together an almost-democratic pseudo government. Nice. Thanks for documenting my claims for me.

and the role they played in shaping our nation...

... has been heavily contested, and the link/book you provided is high on rhetoric and quote-mining, while being very low on details. In all honesty, I read the first page, and skimmed the next 3. There may be some actual information later on, but I don't have a huge interest in the subject, and the first few pages didn't exactly give me the impression that I'd learn something by reading it. If there's a part of it that you find particularly informative, please let me know. I'll gladly review it and re-consider my opinion in light of the new data.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[jcrb]

"hauling semiautomatic weaponry"????

either you meant to say FULLY automatic weaponry, in which case you probably need to the FBI and the ATF involved, or your police are cowards and need to be replaced.

or do you think that most burglars are still packing single shot muzzle loaders?

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[jcrb]

Actually it is a way to subvert the public's knowledge. Calling them "undocumented" implies that the only deficiency with their presence in this country is the lack of some paperwork. The people in question have entered in violation of the law, no amount of paperwork will alter the fact that they are now criminals.

To answer your follow on question, a local radio talk show host doesn't use the term "illegal alien", he refers to them as "criminal aliens", which I think you should approve of, since the answer to your question is, we call most people who commit crimes "criminal citizens" or just "criminals" for short... although given the growing prison population who are not citizens, perhaps we should stop shortening it to just "criminal" since while in the past it was a generally valid simplification that most criminals were (unfortunately) our fellow citizens, it now seems perhaps it is time to be explicit about the citizenship status of those who chose to flaunt the laws of our country.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[ksheff]

they have organized into very successful burglary rings that the police are often afraid to tackle because they're hauling semiautomatic weaponry.

So does every cop on patrol, unless you really mean "fully automatic" weapons.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

Treating people with respect...

YEAH, RIGHT!!! When has the United States government ever treated anyone with respect? Hell, they don't even treat their own citizens with respect!

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[ksheff]

So you're willing to put up with massive numbers of people drawing unemployment benefits and doing nothing with people who are working here illegally?

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[cayenne8]

"That's inaccurate. I am not a citizen of the state of California, I am a resident of the state of California. My citizenship is in the United States of America."

Actually, wrong. You are a citizen of the state you live in first...and a citizen of the United States second.

Remember more power (supposed to be) resides in the state, and then the federal govt. Feds have been expanding their powers illegally for years...we need to squash that.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[profundus]

"We introduced the idea of "country" to them. Nomadic tribes don't generally hold land, and non-nomadic tribes hold very small pieces of land"

And the gallery breaks into thunderous applause.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[couchslug]

The majority of the US public really want a Welfare State, though there is frothing disagreement about _who_ should get the welfare.

We might have the resources to do this for native-born and LEGAL immigrants, but not for everyone who storms the gates.

We can't afford ponies for everyone.

There is no reason not to lock the gates and CHOOSE who we may deign to let in. There is every reason to protect OUR assets so they may be spent on OURSELVES.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[eepok]

Did you actually glean that from what I wrote? Do you know how unemployment works? Have you ever been unemployed and collected unemployment insurance?

Illegal immigrants don't collect unemployment. There are WAY too many safeguards and protections against collecting UI fraudulently as a citizen, let alone an illegal resident.

Also, people here illegally are not filling jobs that would otherwise be filled by citizens. If it weren't for the hordes of illegal workers in the farming industry, your fruits and vegetable picking would be done by expensive machines or even more costly unionized citizen labor-- that's if they're willing to travel with the crop seasons and risk being without work for long periods.

If you're down with mechanized farming, then you wouldn't mind the majority of farm land being owned and operated by corporations, would you? The private farmer, rare as he is already, would go extinct without hesitation. Once the corporate farms have full control, you may as well welcome further standardization of the American diet because, after all, it's cheaper to farm only one strain of one species of potato and corporations are ultimately beholden to the profit demands of their share-holders. Add that to the then-larger corporate farming lobby and you'll see a massive increase in subsidies to make the complete lack of competition more profitable.

What I'm for:
(1) Deporting illegal immigrants who participate in violent or property crimes. Their deportation is cheaper than long-term imprisonment.
(2) Fixing the immigration application process.
(3) Creating an amnesty system giving illegal immigrants conditional legal status if they:
-have been here for 3+ years
-have no felonies
-can prove that they've been working steadily for at least 66% of their time here

Amnesty would also be given to the businesses who had been employing these illegal immigrants. Children of illegal immigrants (born here or elsewhere) would have an entire other (complicated) system of allowances.

Once ALL of that has been done, then you can get draconian with business penalties/jail time, and frequent deportation. There would be a reliable system for applying for citizenship, a standard and expectation of work and education.

You can't put the cart before the horse and expect everything to be OK. You need to set a simple working system for legal immigration and the change to general compliance before you pull out the guns and cuffs.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[profundus]

Why don't you support your sarcasm about Indians being law abiding with some statistics? Stop generalising.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[iamhassi]

"illegals do jobs that no one else wants."

Source? Because I've seen illegals take jobs as cooks, servers, cashiers, maids and lawn mowers and I know plenty of Americans that would love to have those jobs but can't because illegals took them so instead they're still drawing unemployment. Just because we're all very well paid nerds doesn't mean everyone is.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[iamhassi]

THANk YOU! Everyone says "Europeans stole the land from Native Americans, they're illegal immigrants too!". Umm.... you do realize "native american" is just a generic term we called them, they were actually set-up into their own tribes and countries and would often fight over territory and if they had ships capable of crossing the Atlantic I'm sure they would have been in Europe taking land too. Everyone wants to blame the victores for being successful, but where would we be if they hadn't? America would be like most of Africa is now, slave labor mining gold and diamonds for the wealthy superpowers of the world while living in shacks and dying of AIDS

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[iamhassi]

But the police are powerless with their ball and powder muskets!

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

One level down, aren't you are generalizing about Mexicans and Blacks?

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[eepok]

I'd also like the source of that statement because I sure didn't type it.

But since you bring it up, here's a fun anecdotal source of the theory: http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/07/news/economy/farm_worker_jobs/index.htm

If you want something less anecdotal and more universal, I would like to refer you to federal minimum wage standards, health and safety standards, and the like. American have set standards for themselves and they've been made into law. Others have set further standards and those have been made into union policy.

And we're not all well-paid nerds. I'm a poorly paid nerd, but that's because I choose to work in education and educational systems are sapped by highly-paid and ineffectual administrations and a recent wave of education scapegoating.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

It may also interest you to know that it's no small matter for a foreign national to get back into the US, having once been deported from it. There's a lot of extra hoops to jump through.

That's understandable, but as a side effect it means the bar for deportation is set pretty high. Basically, if the INS thinks you may be an innocent victim, 'deportation' is a last resort, not a first approach.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

But But.. we are the US No? We can sh*t on ppl and they should still lick our feet no?

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right. It's not about race, but it's not about crime, either. It's about MONEY. And the biggest obstacle to getting a fix through Congress is the "DO SOMETHING NOW" types shooting down pragmatic approaches such as plans that would allow amnesty for select illegal immigrants... like some of the ones in the farming industry.

Amnesty is not a pragmatic approach. It was tried by Ronald Reagan in 1986 and failed to produce results. I'd rate that as disproven.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Meski]

Strawman a lot?

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[RewriteQuran]

Don't come to America.
USA debt is $200 trillion.
http://www.blacklistednews.com/?news_id=10626

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

"little freaks"

yeah, and then they wonder why Americans are hated all over the world..

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[spun]

Of course I read it, and of course the thesis has been challenged. You go around saying the people we stole the land from also taught us a lot about democracy, you won't be very popular. Still, even if they didn't contribute much, they were a democratic nation. They certainly had concept of land ownership. So, even discounting that point (it is contested) my main point still stands, and I think you know it because you didn't even address it. Native peoples had the concept of land ownership and nations.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember more power (supposed to be) resides in the state, and then the federal govt. Feds have been expanding their powers illegally for years...we need to squash that.

Yes, do squash that so all the collective states of the USA become weaker then Canada. Then we shall invade and civilized these moronic tribes that occupy the territory south of the Canadian border down to the Mexican border.

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devices

[Cimexus]

Indeed. Even as someone entering on a visa-waiver from a friendly, closely-allied country (such as Australia or the UK) is asked on their visa waiver (I94) form: "have you ever been refused entry to, or deported from, the United States?". Answering 'yes' is likely to make you ineligible to enter again without going through a whoooole bunch of paperwork.

So you really, really want to avoid incorrectly entering the US. They don't forget and they don't forgive ;)

Inhuman?

[hort_wort]

Inhuman? So are animals tagging each other with GPS locators now? Those dolphins and their paranoia, always hiding amongst my tuna....

Re:Inhuman?

[LifesABeach]

It appears that the problem is a staffing shortage at the Federal Government level. If the DOJ, or Immigration, or who ever needs to track folks, is having a problem tracking folks it wants to track, then why not hire folks to track them? Of course there is the concept that this could be out sourced. It appears that there is this need by Corporations, and the Government to outsource millions of jobs, once held by Americans, to the BRIC job sector. I believe that this creates an irony that you just have to love.

Re:Inhuman?

[Lumpy]

AS soon as those lazy ass bears launch their own GPS satellite constellation they can do that. Until then they can go crap in the woods.

Re:Inhuman?

[c6gunner]

If the DOJ, or Immigration, or who ever needs to track folks, is having a problem tracking folks it wants to track, then why not hire folks to track them?

Hire some Mexicans to track the Indians?

Re:Inhuman?

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as the US immigration authorities report back with feedback about feeding and mating habits in peer review journal, I am OK with this.

Re:Inhuman?

[LifesABeach]

I wish I was a Play Write, there has to be a script in this cacophony of cultural personalties and personal goals.

The United States is really dumb

[Stargoat]

The United States does dumb things some times. American attitude: Let's bring over the best and brightest the world has to offer. We'll pay 40000 or more for their education. We'll not spend this money on an American. Then, we'll kick the best and brightest (and know best educated) people in the world out of the country when they graduate.

This strategy will strangle long term growth in the US. Smart and educated people have smart and educated kids who in turn have smart and educated kids. Do you see where this is going?

Re:The United States is really dumb

[elrous0]

Except that's NOT the issue here. These were far from the "best and brightest." Those guys go to REAL universities, not fake ones that are just fronts for illegal employment scams.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[loutr]

At my French university you could go study abroad for one year. The US were amongst the choices, you could even go to Berkeley or something like that. The beauty of this system was that you would pay the same tuition fees whether you went abroad or not, so basically you could go to Berkeley for one year and only pay your cheap French tuition fees* . OTOH, US students who came here paid their regular (indecent) US tuition fees...

* about 500€ per year, or even nothing if you have a scholarship, which is not really hard to get if you (or your parents) can't afford the tuition fees.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[elrous0]

about 500€ per year

Wow, that's about $700. That's less than a lot of U.S. students would spend just on books alone. And that's without a scholarship or financial aid.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[bjorniac]

You're missing out a couple of vital steps in your logic here: From someone who's done it, it goes more like this:

University administrators: We've signed up 4000 students for intro courses in physics this semester. We need qualified teachers and lab assistants, but are only willing to pay less than minimum wage, an amount for which we can't find any Americans with the qualifications willing to work.

So: Let's bring over the best and brightest the world has to offer. We'll pay them a pittance and claim that 'tuition' in the form of being told to do all our teaching duties and given all the grunt work of research with little to no guidance is part of their remittance. We'll not spend this money on an American because we could only afford one tenth of the qualified people we need if we did that.

Then, we'll kick the best and brightest and make them get a new visa to work here so that we can force them to keep working or their visa becomes invalid. Hence we can pay them less for their qualifications, and they have no job security.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Nadaka]

$700 is about half the current tuition per semester of the cheapest community colleges in the US (most of them in Mississippi). No wonder the US is rapidly falling behind the rest of the world.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Weezul]

If the parent went to EP or ENS, well those are actually better than Berkeley. lol

Almost all civilized countries have kept university basically free. Do you a realize French doctor charges only $25 for a consultation? Yeah, that's partially cuz med school costs them nothing. Did I mention every French doctor I've ever seen was better every American doctor I've seen? Did I mention those were mostly walkup appointments in France?

Btw, you'll actually find nearly open admission for European universities once you drop below the elites like EP and ENS, but that's kinda an illusion, most people who enter will never graduate, kinda like Georgia Tech. In particular, failing *any* required class twice will usually prevent you from graduating.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Lumpy]

Because in the USA higher education is for the RICH only.

It's always been that way, and it will stay that way.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[MightyYar]

No wonder the US is rapidly falling behind the rest of the world.

Our colleges are still quite highly regarded.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Zantac69]

Then, we'll kick the best and brightest (and know best educated) people in the world out of the country

Leaving people with your spelling skills? Bazinga! /snark

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

The best and brightest immigrants are watching this too. And there are plenty of places in the world where we can start businesses and favorably compete with US ones.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Stargoat]

Suck my big fat American kokc, you grammar nazi.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

around here education is free, and the goverment pays ~1000usd a month to students going to university and similar level educations, a little less for lower levels and about half if you live with your parents. We also have to one of the highest taxes in the world but there's no economic excuses to not get an education

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

Even out of state tuition is $884 for a semester at CCC:

http://www.clovis.edu/TuitionandFees.asp

Re:The United States is really dumb

[martas]

Uhhh, the United States doesn't pay a penny for education of foreign nationals, private donors do. For undergraduate education, scholarship funds come exclusively from private universities and philanthropists. For graduate education, costs are paid for from departmental funds/the student's advisor's funds. The latter two may partially come from government grants, but you can't interpret this as the US government paying for the students' education, since graduate students are considered to pay for themselves with their vital contributions to research.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

Then do so. First, of course, you will need to work around much harder visa restrictions than the ones offered under H1-B, which is REALLY about suppressing wages in the US and not about visiting aliens starting a business.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[coolsnowmen]

The Rich? um no. The rich simply play more, and can go to collage whether they earned it or not. If you are poor and get good grades you can goto collage on scholarships and financial aid. If you are anyone and get great grades you can goto collage on scholarships alone. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad, like the current high school curriculum, 90% of what's taught at most colleges is useless for anything else other than producing half-literate ideological extremists.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[profundus]

Care to enlighten us?

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that a lot of these students pay vastly inflated tuition to subsidize US students, right? The failure of American education occurs far earlier than this.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[nxtw]

Because in the USA higher education is for the RICH only.

Bullshit. Expensive American education is accessible to the non-rich, primarily through easy-to-get, hard-to-discharge student loans and sometimes grants and subsidies that can result in the students effectively getting paid to attend school.. Whether the non-rich can afford the loans accessible to them is another question

If it ever seems that higher education was for the rich only, it's probably because those smart enough to go to the four year universities generally had smart parents who were able to afford it anyway.

It's always been that way, and it will stay that way.

Once again, bullshit. American higher education is more inclusive than ever, with continuously lowered standards, extensive remedial classes, easy and academically dubious programs, and (for many for-profit "schools" and even some private non-profit and state schools) aggressive advertising and sales.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[laddiebuck]

Speaking as someone who came here to study, and am going back -- sorry, but we pay for our education. Paying three and a half times the in-state rate, I even subsidised a few in-state students. The rules are that no federal or state money can go to foreign students, so if you want to get into a federally funded programme, tough titty. You can get private money, but all but a handful of scholarships and loans are limited to citizens and green card holders. At most you can work for the university you attend, but you pay taxes just the same as anyone else, so it's hard to call that support in any way either.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think US immigration policy is sane. But don't think it's naive and is giving money away. It's hard-nosed.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Coldmoon]

Hmm - how much did that Limbaugh U diploma cost there sport?

Re:The United States is really dumb

[RewriteQuran]

If you call police aka 911 in America, the response is
1. Why did you come to America?
2. Why don't you go back to your country?

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree. I am from India and I was going to say the same thing. This is about those guys who consciously plan to dupe the immigration system.

There were two comments that the Indians picked on.
(1) A state dept spokesperson saying that tagging is better than jailing.
(2) The "HIP AND HAPPENING" comment by another spokesperson comparing these 'students" to high-flying "dope convicts". This will be used by the pols and pressure groups in India to get concessions for these students.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

I am from India and I agree. These weren't the brightest and the best but probably aware of the scam.

Actually, there were two statements made by the US department.
(1) Tagging is better than the other offered option (jail).
(2) It is "HIP AND HAPPENING" to wear a govt supplied ankle tag. (Like high profile drug cases).

The first is probably OK if you factor in the standard level of punishments in US.

The second will provide a handle to the vested interests in India to blame the powers that be of an insensitive attitude.

OK.

Re:The United States is really dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

No wonder the French government is just as broke as the other socialist nations that have gone down this path.

FTFY

Unwanted?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course it is unwanted. That is a stupid stupid statement to make. It's like saying, "I got mugged, it was horrible and unwanted".... Anyways, as far as inhuman - - very cruel: showing great cruelty and a lack of humanity - unfeeling: giving an impression of being cold and unfeeling - not human: not seeming to be human, or not characteristic of human beings They are here illegally, therefore as elrous0 said, they should be sent back home. I can think of far worse things for someone that breaks the law than being fitted with a tracking device.

Re:Unwanted?

[h00manist]

They are here illegally, therefore as elrous0 said, they should be sent back home. I can think of far worse things for someone that breaks the law than being fitted with a tracking device.

Indeed. Next we just have to figure out how to tag senators with tracking devices.

This will give us important data

[straponego]

We can track their breeding and migratory patterns, learn about where they eat, and-- wait, you're talking about people? What do you mean, "just brown people, for now?" Not cool.

Re:This will give us important data

[h00manist]

I thought they used cellphone tracking for these things. Oh well, maybe immigration didn't have access to that data, so they created their own data source. Either way I think this is the future of data. What data is acessible and possible is sought, not what data is legal.

for-profit university eh?

[Weezul]

Isn't this protecting Indian students from immigration exploitation?

All fees collected by this 'university' should be refunded to the students, along with a nice payment for working as an undercover informant. If the students can gain admission to a legitimate university and can afford it, they should be granted new student visa. Otherwise, they should be given a 90 day visa to wrap up their affairs in the U.S., under the understanding that this might involve continued work, and given a plane ticket home to india. They should not be considered deported if they leave within three months. Send them home happy for helping out INS.

And all these expenses should be recouped tenfold form this for-profit 'university' that obtained their visa.

Re:for-profit university eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but this will never happen in America. It's too reasonable. It simultaneously punishes a for-profit company (legality of its actions be damned) and doesn't adequately dehumanize the foreigners, who are THE ENEMY for having set foot on American soil (their intentions be damned).

Re:for-profit university eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

US visa policy is based on the premise that the US doesn't need the foreigner, but the foreigner needs the US. Hence the attitude foreigners get when navigating the US visa system is similar to the attitude shown by House on TV. Hence a foreigner's very first interaction with the US is to be treated as an unwelcome pest by the system. US authorities have no concern for building good will with foreigners in the US. This is just an example of that. The American people are much more welcoming.

MOD PARENT UP!

[TrisexualPuppy]

Let's get this guy to +5 before he is buried into oblivion via Slashdot 3.0.

Paranoia

[Grapplebeam]

They're not going to blow up anything. People need to stop acting like idiots. Well, on second thought, they might want to blow up something NOW...

Re:Paranoia

[rickb928]

It's not about blowing stuff up, stupid. It's more important than that. It's jobs.

And I'm pretty sure I used the proper forms, so blowing an artery is your issue. Go police someone else.

Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs too

[realxmp]

The real reason isn't just about voting blocs, it's about party donors and cheap labor and both parties are guilty of it. Why do you think no serious attempt has been made to punish firms for deliberately employing illegal immigrants. Americans want cheap goods made in the USA -> largest cost in goods manufacture is labor + Illegals are cheap = Political inaction

Not deportation

[Weezul]

It appears they were willing to help INS nail their employers and this fraudulent for-profit 'university', therefore thy should be awarded all the usual benefits of police informers, i.e. no deportation stamp in their passport, payment for their services, keeping the gains of their illegal work, etc. At minimum, INS would've given them immunity from immediate deportation in exchange for their cooperation.

If you send some Indians home happy after helping INS nail exploitive employers, you'll get more confessing to passport control officers. Yeah sure they might've made oodles more working here illegally for years, but spending time with your family while receiving a reasonable one time payout, well that's probably good enough for most.

Re:Not deportation

[Anonymous Coward]

Why pull that figure of $40,000 out of your ass? In fact, in addition to strict visa requirements, foreign students are not given aid or scholarships.

Keep drumming up support for the Minute Men, ignoramus.

Nope... that's kinda of a US government's thing...

[denzacar]

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's thing to be precise.
Like when they issue them a student visa...

The students say they were unaware of the dodgy nature of the university and they were conned. In a petition to the secretary of homeland security and the director of ICE, the affected students said they registered in the university believing it is a "bonafide and legitimate university that had been registered with the Student and Exchange Visitor Information System (SEVIS) database."

SEVIS is a web-based technology maintained by the US to track and monitor schools and programs, students, exchange visitors and their dependents, while they are legally enrolled in the US education system. Indeed, Tri-Valley University is among the SEVIS Approved Schools listed on the US ICE website. Authorities have since shut down the university.

And when TFA says "among the SEVIS Approved Schools listed on the US ICE website", it means IT IS STILL AMONG THE APPROVED SCHOOLS.

 
 
On a side note, I completely understand your feelings regarding this matter.
If I was a Navajo Indian, I too would be pissed off by all these immigrant "Indians" coming to my country. Fuckers don't even wear feathers.

Re:Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs to

[FatAlb3rt]

You're right, both parties are guilty of it. The difference is one party tends to have some members that want to do something about it, and the entire party is demonized as being inhumane.

This is not wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an Indian and am aware about the craze among Indians engineers to go abroad (or get an MBA). Infact I am writing this from Germany. While a lot of Indians have contributed to foreign lands, this doesn't mean all Indians are intelligent or will contribute to economy of whereever they go.
The students in this case want India (and the world) to believe that they are harmless victims of the situation, but I am sure they were aware of the scam and hence should have reported this matter earlier. If you don't report a crime, you're somehow responsible for it. Probably, some 'education consultant' from India was involved in the whole scheme.

I don't see any racist element to this, they should be happy about the fact that they are not in some detention center ready to be sent back to India.

There is nothing wrong with going to foreign lands for better education and career prospects. After all, if an Indian abroad takes a job from somebody else he does so based on his talents and this is why the company picks him/her over a native. Sorry, today the world works on these terms.... So don't crib about Indians taking your jobs all the time.....there is a reason we get picked over natives.

 

Re:This is not wrong!

[deadweight]

"After all, if an Indian abroad takes a job from somebody else he does so based on his talents" Let me fix that for you: "After all, if an Indian abroad takes a job from somebody else he does so based on his talents or the fact he/she will be a virtual slave on an H1B visa and put up with wages no American that could do the job would tolerate" There you go.

Re:This is not wrong!

[rickb928]

"After all, if an Indian abroad takes a job from somebody else he does so based on his talents" Let me fix that for you: "After all, if an Indian abroad takes a job from somebody else he does so based on his talents and, most importantly, the fact he/she will be a virtual slave on an H1B visa and put up with wages and conditions no American that could do the job would tolerate"

Might as well get it right.

Re:This is not wrong!

[GottMitUns]

In America Indians are taking advantage of Affirmative action policies. I have seen this happen firsthand.

Re:This is not wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they have "consulting agencies" (basically slave traders) who bring people over to the US, force them to work when and where they're going to work (regardless of where in the US this is, so yes, in most cases, families are split up for long periods of time and yes, even if they're living locally, they're quite often given group homes to live in under pretty horrible conditions), and then since these people need the company to process their green card (which can take 7 years), they are forced to accept the situation and the money they're told they're going to be paid (again, basically slaves).

Meanwhile, those "consulting agencies" will lie through their teeth to get these people hired anywhere (since if not, they're on "bench-time," aka being paid even though they're not working) and instruct their "employees" (again, basically slaves) to lie on every interview as well and say they've done everything in the world to get hired, or they'll be fired, lose their visa (since the company controls it), and be deported. My favorite stories from working for a much more legit consulting agency for years (and having to constantly differentiate ourselves from slave-traders) were the places who would send one guy on an interview who presented well, get him hired, then send someone else to do the job.

So then a company gets 10 applicants for a job, 2 of which come from these agencies, both of which are asking for MUCH less money than the "natives." Do they always get hired? No, of course not. But hey, if X is much cheaper than Y and promises to do the same thing, you're going to at least have a look at X every time. So they get more interviews, which leads to more hirings.

So in conclusion, it takes a bad incident or 2 for a company to learn who to trust and who not to trust, but in the meantime, those who are not lying, cheating,and stealing their way into employment sometimes are passed over for jobs. It doesn't mean India (or China, or anywhere else) is producing better workers, it's just a matter of companies/hiring managers being idiots.

Re:This is not wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

...There is nothing wrong with going to foreign lands for better education and career prospects. After all, if an Indian abroad takes a job from somebody else he does so based on his talents and this is why the company picks him/her over a native. Sorry, today the world works on these terms.... So don't crib about Indians taking your jobs all the time.....there is a reason we get picked over natives.

I'm glad you're rather proud of your background and accomplishments, but be careful not to project them on to Indians as a whole. Just like all Americans aren't cowboys, all English cooks aren't terrible and all Irishmen aren't drunks. The following is just my personal professional experience from the past 5 years or so I've been used as a technical expert when interviewing folks for Java development jobs at well known company way up in the Fortune 500. YMMV and all that. Posting anon for obvious reasons.

At least in IT, the reason many get picked over "natives" is there's a huge and borderline fraudulent base of companies that are essentially "body shops" that just shovel semi-qualified folks at the HR departments of major corporations. Compound that with IT being looked at as a liability rather than an asset, and the business side of these corporations set crazy low billing rates for even "Java Sr. Developer" jobs. Very rarely does an American resume come across the desk as most aren't interested in working for about 66% of the billing rate which is in turn about 20% lower than what a non-contract employee makes. The Americans that do make it through the HR filters are usually damaged goods in some way or another ... and that's why they're not employed elsewhere.

The sheer level of incompetence I've personally witnessed from these "Java Sr. Developer" candidates is staggering. Everything from "what's an array?" to "what's the difference between int and Integer?" and I've even had them argue with me that you can't use a finally block! Again this is for a "Java Sr. Developer" position! It's not uncommon to go through 100 resumes, 30 interviews, take a chance on 5 and hire them, fire 3 after they don't work out due to poor performance, and finally try and grow the other 2 into productive developers ... only to have them leave in 6 months to a year and repeat the cycle.

The kids in this story were likely part of this "IT body shop" scam or at least a variation on that theme. I don't personally blame them for looking to come over here and earn higher wages for a few years ... I'd probably think it sounded like a good deal too if I were in their shoes. But looking at the situation for what it is ... these folks are basically educated migrant workers. The industry is different than picking strawberries, but the business plan for the individual is basically the same.

Step 1: Get into country with higher pay and a more stable and valuable (for now) currency. At least these folks generally do it "legally" even if it's a bit shady (H1B program ... you can't tell me there aren't tens of thousands of semi-competent Java developers in America!)
Step 2: Accept and be grateful for pay lower than most of the "natives" would work for.
Step 3: Save your money for a few years and then take it home and convert it to a LOT of the local currency. Current exchange rate is about 45:1 (what we generally refer to a PROFIT!!! in step three :)

The main difference in this case a why American's complain about losing jobs is the fact that these ARE good jobs that people WANT and work very hard to get, sometimes going into significant debt to gain the required credentials. Then when they graduate they find out that they're competing against folks who will accept take home pay that they could exceed being a school teacher! (One of the most underpaid jobs in America BTW.) If you're a lucky enough American to land a

Re:This is not wrong!

[cmholm]

Brother, you were doing so well, but you just had to push the globalism button in the last paragraph. Therefore: you get picked because "you're" cheap enough to make up for a generally mediocre level of post-secondary education, are often times proficient in your colonial overlord's language, and if residing in a host country, easy to exploit and send home.

Re:This is not wrong!

[joebob2000]

I'm an Indian [...] if an Indian abroad takes a job from somebody else he does so based on his talents and this is why the company picks him/her over a native. Sorry, today the world works on these terms.... So don't crib about Indians taking your jobs all the time.....there is a reason we get picked over natives.

Um, no. The reason that an Indian gets a job over an American is that the Indian is not a citizen, is here on a work visa, and must leave the country if he does not have a job. His employer usually promises to help him gain a green card through a process that takes years. If the Indian were to lose his job, this process could be screwed up or even reset and he would have to start all over again. All these things make him a compliant employee who is motivated to work hard, take less pay, and is less likely to leave a company.

Foreigners on work visas are model employees because they are working under a modern day version of indentured servitude. The carrot is the promise of help with a green card application. The stick is the promise of getting kicked out of the country if you lose your job.

Re:This is not wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

After all, if an Indian abroad takes a job from somebody else he does so based on his talents and this is why the company picks him/her over a native. Sorry, today the world works on these terms.... So don't crib about Indians taking your jobs all the time.....there is a reason we get picked over natives.

You get picked because of your skin color thanks to a rather large and well-funded 'minority' lobbying. In American universities, politics (mostly left-wing) takes precedence over academics, and it shows. Gender, skin color, and athletic ability all matter more during the application process. Sorry, you weren't picked for your personal or cultural superiority.

Re:This is not wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

Both the views quite stereotyped! There is no craze to go abroad in India among smart people as enough good opportunities are available in India nowdays. (Who wants to live as a migrant in a foreign land when all near dear ones are back home! ) Mostly researchers at doctoral level. Or rich and mediocre people nowdays go abroad to compensate for their mediocrity and get exploited and bring bad name (especially people from down south in India). Post secondary education has infact improved over the years with lots of good people returning to India and helping build institutions -- ISB is one outstanding example, with even people from US coming over to study. And yes, I forgot, any good people -- for that matter from anywhere, are not easy to exploit. In fact they are very much enticed to stay on. Hope I could clarify some...

Re:This is not wrong!

[metlin]

I'm curious about your statement, because as an Indian who *is* on an H1B (and with several friends who are on H1Bs), I'm not aware of these "wages and conditions" that you speak of.

Quite honestly, most of my friends and colleagues who are on H1Bs -- Indians, Ukranians, Russians, Spanish, Chinese, or even Canadians -- make well into the six figures, and they've under no duress to work in poor conditions.

I realize that this is anecdotal, but in my experience, I'm yet to come across someone accepting the poor wages and conditions that you talk about.

But I will not let facts deter you from your prejudice.

Re:This is not wrong!

[rickb928]

My experience with H1B workers is not the same. Many are shuttled from job to job, receiving diminishing salaries, some even have had their visa papers held by employers. This puts them at great peril, as they were told they need their papers with them at all times. This is true of not just Indian nationals, but the Asian workers as well.

And their salaries are not six-figures. They are paid even less than I am, and I took a 15% pay cut in 2009.

There is not a single experience for H1B workers.

Re:This is not wrong!

[VJ42]

Then when they graduate they find out that they're competing against folks who will accept take home pay that they could exceed being a school teacher! (One of the most underpaid jobs in America BTW.) If you're a lucky enough American to land a good job in the field out of college, you'll see the other side-effect of these folks ... depressed wages.

1) This is what's classically known as free market capitalism. Something you* Americans are famous for trying to spread; if you want a protectionist economy, you really shouldn't demonise it's alternatives. Personally, I'm rather fond of this aspect of capitalism; if I want to do the same job as you and am just as capable, it's your tough luck if I'm willing to do it for a lower wage. However, good luck in trying to spread social democracy amongst the American people, I don't think you'll get far in a country where 'socialist' is an insult though.

2)Your country should pay teachers more, if they really are one of the lowest paid professions, they should be paid a lot more. Education is important and you want the best and brightest doing it. Here in the UK it's a well respected and reasonably well paid job. The best Head teachers can earn a lot of money and even the average teachers pay is good (raw numbers are skewed upwards due to London weighting, so here's a link to teacher pay grades separating them out rather than an average figure: http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6000186 )


*Disclaimer - I'm a 2nd\3rd Gen Indian from the UK, born and brought up. Here the Indian stereotype is doctor\lawyer type professions on high wages. Personally, I'm a librarian; a profession taken up for love, not money.

GPS devices...

[cheap.computer]

Even Martha Stewart was wearing one for a few months, the idea here is that the students can still move around freely and be tracked while deportation proceedings are pending, its like prison without walls. It is easy to catch and deport legal immigrants who are no longer welcome. What is funny to me is I have not read similar reports of tagging illegal immigrants with GPS devices even if they were caught, is this coz this might piss off certain chunk of the vote bank?

India, you say?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just put it in terms the Indian diplomats can understand: that these students are a member of a lower caste and have fewer rights. I'm sure that will clear all this up, right?

Re:India, you say?

[Anonymous Coward]

hmm, I guess like blacks in the US, right?

PS: India had a 'low' caste president long, long before US had this half-black-by-birth and all-white-by-upbringing, yet-still-called-black president. So, my dear American, please do not go about commenting on topics you know squat about.

Re:India, you say?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just put it in terms the Indian diplomats can understand: that these students are a member of a lower caste and have fewer rights. I'm sure that will clear all this up, right?

Still stuck in the 50's? Wake up, this is 2011.

Re:Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs to

[Malc]

Interesting article over at The Economist analyzing how much cheap Chinese imports have saved Americans money by keeping domestic manufacturing in check. Americans like their goods cheap more than they like wage inflation it seems.

Re:Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs to

[h00manist]

Applying that business perspective, what would make the most sense is to allow massive immigration, to have lots of laborers, and keep it illegal, to have them work cheap. Which is more or less what happens. But I'm sure the dynamics are a lot more complex than that. Even in Italy, where racism and immigrant deportation is much quicker than the US, immigrants are quite numerous. As I see it, many of these countries provide cheap labor, cheap natural resources, etc, which get shipped to another country with more financial resources for very low prices. Well, after a while, they become depleted of of everthing, and start following their resources. The fact that their immigration is illegal is just a regulatory, technical inconvenience. Nobody is going to be sitting waiting in poverty for economic equality, justice, opportunity, etc. They just go where the jobs are.

Why is this possible?

[wiredlogic]

Why is it even possible in this day to make it through a border crossing with a fraudulent visa? It would be cheap insurance to develop visa documentation with a matrix code that can be verified in a central database to weed out the frauds when they first land in the US. It's amazing that the US can track its own citizens better than the aliens it brings in from outside.

Re:Why is this possible?

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I can tell, they had valid visas, they just received them in a fraudulent manner (not necessarily their fault, but it still would invalidate the visa). So when they crossed the border, their visa was good, but has recently been invalidated as a result of an ICE investigation into the school.

Re:Why is this possible?

[Anonymous Coward]

The visas and immigration status were real, but obtained fraudulently.

Re:Why is this possible?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why is it even possible in this day to make it through a border crossing with a fraudulent visa? "

It should be trivially easy to prevent such shenanigans, but :

It shows how secure the idiots at Homeland Security are keeping the US, doesn't it ?

Re:Why is this possible?

[cdrguru]

There is no attempt in the US to track visa violations. If you have something that looks real when you come in, you are in. If you have a real visa and overstay, again there is no enforcement whatsoever.

Now if you stand up in a crowded room and scream how you are here illegally you might get some people's attention. They would usher you out and keep you from coming back into that room. If you get stopped by the police ... well, they are prevented from doing anything that might lead to some kind of immigration action. How can you be deported? I don't know - it is really, really hard.

All I can think of is they were complaining to Immigration folks about the money they were paying for being here illegally and wanted a refund from the government. Since the government is broke and laying off people THAT might get their attention.

Re:Why is this possible?

[Lehk228]

i did not rtfa but i assume they were visas obtained with fraudulent student credentials in the form of a fake school telling ICE that these people were students.

Website

[YesDinosaursDidExist]

Have you seen this school's website? There is no way anyone could believe its a real institution....seriously.... http://www.trivalleyuniversity.org/ .....it doesn't even have a .edu address....

Re:Website

[Anonymous Coward]

The design of the website may not look suspicious to a foreigner. You are comparing this website to US 'standards' of what professional websites should look like. You can do that because you probably lived in a Western country long enough to know professional websites look and feel different. This is not necessarily the case of someone who lived all their life in a third-world country. In fact in some countries professional websites often look like the website of that university because everyone is poor or people don't care about website design very much due to their culture.

Re:Website

[Anonymous Coward]

That's so not true. It takes 1200 Indian rupee (~$30) to get a domain and host a website in India. The going rate to hire professional developers to build a website is usually Rs 5000-20,000 (~ $100-$445) in India. The yearly tuition fee for a single student varies from Rs 50,000-Rs 1,50,00 per year (~$1000-$3300) with most bad quality private schools charging on the higher end, and the good ones on the lower end of the fee. The cost of maintaining a web-site seems negligible when compared to the fraction of total tuition fee.

On the other hand, Tri-valley charged $5000 per year which is "CHEAP" as compared to most US schools, and not exorbitant when compared with some of the costly private schools in India. also it allowed them to work illegally - and earn in US$s.

Its a no-brainer that these students either directly chose Trivalley (around 200 students) or transferred from others to Tri-Valley (>900). I don't think that they are in any way duped. They wanted to cheat the system the day they came here, and if they are punished may be they deserve it.

Re:Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs to

[peragrin]

Well that and the largest group of illegal immigrants work the farm fields at pick time. How many americans would work the $3 an hour required to keep the price of food reasonable?
would you spend $4 an apple, peach or orange, would spend $15 for a quart of OJ?

American's are paid so much more than other area's that even minimum wage would shut many farms down.

What sort of Indian ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lakota, Ojibwe , Apache, Hopi ,Kiowa, Tlingit,Navajo or from somewhere in South America?

Re:Nope... that's kinda of a US government's thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent +1 informative. The Tri-Valey University is still listed on the LIST OF SEVIS APPROVED SCHOOLS.
If it is shutdown, keeping it there amounts amounts to fraud.

Re:Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs to

[Duradin]

Whoah! You didn't warn me about that 's on the end of farm there. Don't forget the "Oh no! A 's i's coming!" ' on your plural's.

Re:Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs to

[imthesponge]

The thing is, illegal immigration is unregulated labor, which conservatives absolutely treasure.

If they don't want to wear a GPS device

[nedlohs]

I'm sure they can sit in jail while their cases are processed.

What does India do with foreigners it finds without valid visas?

Sure it sucks for anyone who was conned and didn't thought they were doing the right thing, but that's always the case.

Re:Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs to

[TheLink]

I wouldn't be surprised if the US has actually saved $$$ with China poisoning themselves and selling the US cheap stuff.

The real problem/question is what did the US do with the savings?

Lots of people like to demonize China. Yes China definitely does lots of evil stuff, but hey if your neighbour worked long hours in unhealthy environments to sell[1] you cheap stuff (which mostly works), whose fault is it if you spend the resulting savings on "more cheese burgers and toys you don't need" or "expensive wars with other neighbours".

[1] Even better - you paid him with money and IOUs created by your own personal printing press :).

today is feb 1st, not April 1st

[peter303]

paronia rumors are rampant

Or put another way

[ThatsNotPudding]

Note: Semi-automatic just means anything but a bolt/lever/pump action firearm. This can be a simple pistol.

aka 'Point and Click'

Re:Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs to

[h4rr4r]

This is not true at all. The increase of $1 per hour for laborers on tomatoes increased their price by cents per pound. Labor is not the biggest cost of these goods.

hip and happening?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure why this in the "idle" section, this is not a laughing matter for the students who came to US after paying through their nose to study in a US govt. approved and listed university. And how this is being called "hip and happening" by US government officials .

Re:hip and happening?

[Anonymous Coward]

This whole affair has deeply saddened me. It broke my heart to read so many hateful comments against my people. I thought may be we at slashdot were above petty sensationalist FUD and hate mongering politics.

My people don't go around murdering, bombing or selling drugs. Yes, we often work like anything to get green cards, just so that we do not have to work like that anymore. How about fixing the system which forces people to work like indentured slaves, if you think that's how it is? Yes, people sometimes game the system. But everyone has their black sheep. At least, as I said, we don't contribute to crime statistics? Or go tom-tomming superiority of our mothers, or stealing American technology, or spying, or helping terrorists.

I could now start talking about how the west is what it is today helped not in a small manner by the plunder of resources from far-east to africa. I could also talk about how every non native american can count an ancestor who rode a boat towards hope with. Ever seen gangs of New York?

This is just one incident, but it was like a slap in the face for someone who still saw this place as a bastion of liberty and a shining beacon of all good things in the world. I came away from my motherland because I thought I could do some good here, for myself as well as for others.

I have so many friends here. I never realised I was so hated. I'm sorry I was so wrong. I will go away. Best of luck to you folk. I hope things get better for you.

And yes, I'm here on an H1.

Everybody RUN!

[spun]

They're coming for our WORDS! It's 1984 meets Brave New World meets The Prince meets a thesaurus!

Yes, feast on the outrage. The hate will make you strong. The fear will keep you sharp. Knowing about the evil conspiracy to take our words makes you better than the sheeple who don't realize that the crypto-fascist-islamist-terrorist-commie-nazi-liberals want to control what they think.

It only works if everyone plays fair

[realxmp]

This is not true at all. The increase of $1 per hour for laborers on tomatoes increased their price by cents per pound. Labor is not the biggest cost of these goods.

Cents per pound matter in farming because the market doesn't care if you're legal or not. If you're employing all legal workers and your neighbours are employing illegals you're still going to have to absorb the difference. It all adds up and it can be the difference between a profit and a loss.

Re:It only works if everyone plays fair

[Bobakitoo]

Cents per pound matter in farming because the market doesn't care if you're legal or not. If you're employing all legal workers and your neighbours are employing illegals you're still going to have to absorb the difference. It all adds up and it can be the difference between a profit and a loss.

I have heard that some government involvement could work to resolve this problem. The good new is that these laws and regulations are already in place. We just need to fucking enforce them and put in jail the ass holes that hire illegal immigrants to pay them, under the table, less then minimum wage. This way, all the tomatos will be able to compete on on fair grounds. Also, these workers will get a decent salary and they will pay their share of taxes for a change.

Re:Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs to

[ksheff]

This is one form of agriculture that has avoided mechanization for a long time because of the illegal labor pool. Start throwing farmers in jail and you'll find them willing to either pay reasonable wages or fork over the cash for the equipment. Besides, the illegal immigrants have moved far beyond farms. They've driving packing plant wages to half of what they used to be, make up a large number of construction workers, and are in many other industries. Given the unemployment rates, one would think the Feds would crack down on these employers. :(

Re:Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs to

[AK Marc]

Which party is that? The Republicans gave immigration amnesty in 1986 and tried again under Bush, but that failed because of the Democrats. Members of both parties want to do something about it. But the only one that made a massive move to make the illegals legal voters was the Republicans. Though your insinuations I'd take to indicate you are talking about the "other" party as the one catering to non-voters to make them voters.

Republicans strongly want illegal immigrants in the country because it's good for business. Democrats want illegal immigrants in the country because they think it's good for the country and people involved. Both want illegal immigrants to enter. Only one wants it for profit. But I guess in our neo-capitalistic society, anything done for profit must be right...

Re:No, they shouldn't be given GPS devicess

[Anonymous Coward]

Spoken like a true American.

Unfortunately, in many other parts of the real world - people are not familiar with U.S. conventions such as government scams which criminalize victims of its failed governmental policies.

Good examples, war on drugs, NAFTA, immigration, etc.

Re:Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs to

[Lehk228]

considering that Obama has deported record numbers of illegal immigrants, and of them 70% were convicted criminals, and his administration's audit tactics have been far more effective and efficient at going after the companies that hire and create demand for illegal immigration, i think your comment is uninformed at best.

the republican party likes big showy raids where mexicans get rounded up like cattle and carted off, because that plays towards their base's racist and nationalistic tendencies. however their actual customers, the large corporations least want an effective border solution, hence why the house republicans have been trying to force the administration back to the less effective and less efficient "round up" enforcement that has a lower ratio of criminal and violent criminals being deported and a lower number deported overall, the only things it has going for it is being more pro-campaign donor^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hbusiness and a better show for the racists.

Best and brightness?, not any more

[Anonymous Coward]

Through the 60s,70s and 80s only the best and brightness would go to the U.S for studies, even with a scholarship. Living in the U.S, expenses and culture wise was difficult(fear of the unknown).And spending all that money and time if you are not sure of "making it" meant only the best and the brightest ended up doing it. By the 90s on the other hand, things changed dramatically. Expenses were no longer an issue(access to finance, educational loans..), what to expect culture wise became less of an unknown, thanks to cable television. The bottom line is you can end-up for "study" in the U.S even if you are not the best and the brightest, because the resources required are so easy to get.

The solution is to allow only the best schools in the U.S to issue I-20s. Candidates with GRE scores about 1560 only need apply.

The students were active participants

[FarHat]

You just have to go an immigration forum dominated by Indians like murthyforum.com and search for TVU. You will find posts as far back as last year where people were discussing TVU as a university which would issue you a CPT (curricular practical training) from day one had no classes and you could start working right away with other people warning this was a fraud. The discussions were long and many people wanted to work from day one. Often it was people who were laid off from their jobs, could not find something in the short period thereafter, so you join this "university", change to an F-1, get a CPT and start working elsewhere without the limitations that an H1 imposes.

Impossible

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not possible for the Indian students to be duped. Have you been to India? The very reason for existence in India is to dupe someone. Beggars dupe the rich. The rich dupe the poor and the workers. Squatters dupe land owners. Land owners dupe the tenants and claim water rights. Farmers ignore water rights and use the water anyway. All Indians dupe the state and countrywide government. The government promises the citizens something if they vote for them yet nothing happens. States such as Karnataka wangle money for research; Kerala for tourism and the Northern states for defense. Yet nothing happens. District Commissioners appear to be helping the poor while they live like royalty. The whole of India is a scam with everyone finagling and fiddling and deceiving.

Understand that there is nothing malicious in this duping. It is considered sport, a way of moving up in the world.

Not a chance these students are innocent. Not with a background like that.

might as well fold up shop

[jeko]

This is why you hang out on Slashdot. You have no head for business. :-)

Dealing with heavily-armed criminals is a high-risk, no profit endeavor. Red-Light cameras and speed traps yield literally hundreds of dollars an hour in pure profit, and you get the added enjoyment of tasering senior citizens from time to time.

Re:Not just next voting bloc, it's labour costs to

[Anonymous Coward]

This is hilarious. Thank you.

(Not being sarcatic, in case anyone wasn't sure)

They're from the wrong country!

[Anonymous Coward]

Had they been Mexican, they probably wouldn't have been deported.

Deport them all

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck Indians
Brown savages who bathe in rivers of feces.
Let them learn how to steal jobs in their own shit hole of a country!
Get the fuck out!!!!!!!