Teacher Suspended Over Blog About Students

English teacher Natalie Munroe is in a bit of hot water after she described the precious snowflakes in her class as: “Frightfully dim,” “Rat-like,” “Am concerned your kid is going to open fire on the school,” “I hate your kid,” and “Seems smarter than she actually is,” on her blog. The Central Bucks School District has suspended Natalie after parents complained to administrators. “It’s hard to know that you sat in her class for an hour and a half a day and for her to feel that way it is like, it is an awful feeling,” student Alli Woloshyn said.

Comments

Not an YRO

[Sonny Yatsen]

I don't think this teacher's suspension over the blog is a violation of her rights online. Everyone is free to say what they wish without risk of government censorship. But on the flip side of the coin, everyone must also bear the consequences of their speech. She went online, said something stupid and now she has to deal with the consequences of that.

And frankly, she deserves to be suspended. Clearly, if she's posting this kind of stuff, her ability to teach those kids she refers to as idiots and rats is compromised. Does anyone want to be taught by someone who feels nothing but contempt for them?

Re:Not an YRO

[DurendalMac]

THIS. I anticipate a lot of kneejerking posts in this thread, but come on, she deserved it. When you continuously insult and degrade your students publicly, whether it's in person or online, don't be surprised when the school fires your ass, and for good reason.

I have a friend who teaches in high school. He comments about his students and their silliness from time to time on Facebook, but nothing even remotely like this. He has sense enough to do it very tactfully and in ways that are not degrading.

Re:Not an YRO

[hedwards]

That might be, but nobody forced her to take the job or change her feelings. If the children were that dim there are ways of handling it. Sometimes parents do need to be told that the student isn't performing adequately. Typically that's done via report card, note home or possible home visit. Handling it via social networking site is completely unforgivable.

Typically I'm against employers holding employees accountable for personal writings, but in this case it's not really a personal writing so much as a violation of the students right to privacy and a general violation of professional ethics.

I've spent a lot of time personally undoing the damage that poor instruction has caused, and that was more legitimate lack of training without malice. Something like this could definitely haunt the students for years and possibly the rest of their lives. And no, I'm not exaggerating, a surprising number of late diagnosed "learning disorders" aren't really anxiety driven rather than whatever the diagnosis was.

Re:Not an YRO

[melchoir55]

Teaching kids is not about getting something from the kids. It isn't about mutual respect. It isn't about them asking "how high" when you say "jump". It isn't about having kids revere you as their mentor.

Teaching kids is about *helping the kids*. If they are great at algebra, then teach them polynomials. If they can barely handle addition, teach them addition. If they can barely pay attention to addition, work on getting them to pay attention/have self confidence/etc. Someone with the attitude of this teacher (or yours) is certainly not doing this. She deserves a suspension. Her attitude betrays a point of view toxic to pedagogy. In a perfect world where she could easily find work elsewhere and where the school could easily replace her then she should be asked to leave. Hopefully she takes her suspension as a wake up call. I doubt it, but we can hope.

Re:Not an YRO

[Space cowboy]

Does anyone want to be taught by someone who feels nothing but contempt for them?

I had teachers who regularly called students (me included) "stupid bastard", and that wasn't by any means the worst of it. Never did me any harm - in fact the teacher who was polite and formal all the time was the universally despised one - nicknamed "Timmy!". His kid went to the same school, and was thrown out of a second-storey window because his father was such a pratt. Not defending that, I think it's reprehensible, but it happened.

I had a Spanish teacher (Geoffrey Park) who used to throw a padlock at kids who weren't paying attention, a maths teacher who threw chalk (he was far more accurate...) and it was all fine. I remember getting my own back at the kids-v-teachers football match by starting a chant "Geoffrey Park, super-star!, walks like a woman and he wears a bra". All in fun, and I didn't expect (or get) any comeback in class later.

Of course, I went to school in the UK, in a northern town, and it was far-and-away rougher than the US (at least in CA where I live). No guns or knives (considered the tools of cowards, where I'm from), but it was easy to come home bruised every single day for a year or so, with occasional visits to hospital.

Sometimes the comparison between my school-life and the "issues" and "problems" facing todays youth seems very amusing ...

Of course, it wasn't all bad. I had teachers who shot down thrown paper airplanes with the fire-extinguisher, or who came out to the pub with us for a drink after driving us to 'Bridge night' (I was in the school bridge team, and yes, we were under-age :). We dissected things (bulls eye, frog, ...) from age-11 onwards; I took an explosives option in Chemistry, used woodworking and metalworking power tools from age 12, etc. etc. Basically they treated us as young adults, and expected us to behave the same. Part of that is coping with being told you're a stupid bastard. Because, sometimes, everyone is (the stupid part - the bastard part is just to drive home the stupid part...)

Simon

Re:Not an YRO

[smcn]

A teacher's obligation is to help her students learn, is it not? An appropriate response to a student "holding back the rest of the class" is to confer with the parent and recommend alternatives, not complain about it on a publicly accessible blog. Honesty does not require being an asshole.

Re:Not an YRO

[MrSenile]

Actually, you made good points, let's break them down.

Teaching kids is about *helping the kids*.

How is the 'no kid left behind' doctrine helping kids? How is dumbing down the curriculum to help the under achiever helping the brilliant student?

If they are great at algebra, then teach them polynomials. If they can barely handle addition, teach them addition.

And here we have the crux of the problem with education in the United States. Teachers are unable to individually teach students, and thus, those that shine in their area of expertise suffer for those who are average. In fact, some school systems enforce average teaching because singling out students tend to get the teacher in question in trouble with the school boards.

If they can barely pay attention to addition, work on getting them to pay attention/have self confidence/etc.

And how does one enforce this? Spanking no longer is an option. Sending to the principles office? Most kids causing the problems really don't care if they're in trouble because they know the school system can't do -anything- to them if their parents don't care either, which is most always the case for troubled youth to begin with. Teachers can't do anything when the legal system and government and school boards take their power away to help them.

Someone with the attitude of this teacher (or yours) is certainly not doing this. She deserves a suspension.

Then you should suspend all teachers. I guarentee you that every single teacher out there, good or not, have felt this at least once. They vent to family, friends, and each other all the time. The only mistake this teacher did was to vent on a public forum where it was visible when she probably should have kept it private.

Her attitude betrays a point of view toxic to pedagogy.

Point your finger to the Government system that have ham-strung our education system. The teachers are as much a product of it as the piss-poor education our children are suffering through. She's a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

Hopefully she takes her suspension as a wake up call. I doubt it, but we can hope.

Why should she? She will likely do the exact same thing that students under her do who also cause problems. Not a damn thing. Why? Because it won't matter. Why care when no one else does. You've shown what the majority of people think already. You never once considered her view point. Why she felt the way she did. Why she felt she needed to vent. You automatically accused her because... why? The children could do no wrong?

Smell reality sometime. It's different than the fiction you're sniffing.

Re:Not an YRO

[brainboyz]

I disagree. Some of my BEST teachers (based on the measure of how much I learned/gained from a class) had no problem calling a student out in front of the WHOLE class with a cuttingly honest remark. Why? Because they would point out the faults and pressure you to work towards fixing them. Sure, there was a student here or there that merely gave up in the class after such remarks, but those were the same students that put no effort in elsewhere either. On the flip side, these same teachers gave out praise for exemplary work, and you can bet when you got it you felt great.

At this point, too many students are coddled when they need to be slapped up-side the head with reality. Lazy, disrespectful, and borderline criminal students need not be told it's "okay" but rather need to be told to shape up. Too many are coming out of school expecting things to be handed to them, or to "pass" with minimum effort.

She should be fired for being a bad teacher

[Locke2005]

Kids have a way of living up to people's expectations. She expects these kids to act like animals, and they're fulfilling her expectations. I'd expect teachers to vent to each other about the students (and parents) they have to deal with, but venting in an online forum displays terrible judgement.

My mother works as a substitute teacher. She takes troubled kids that every else badmouths, treats them with respect, and gets them to open up, stop being disruptive, and actually start learning. If a teacher is having problems with kids, it is as much an indictment of the teacher as it is of the kids.

Re:Less Honesty Please...

[TheWanderingHermit]

I not only have to agree with everything the parent says, but add two points:

1) This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit, and

2) I taught emotionally disturbed kids and normal kids. Even for teens, teachers are still enough of an authority that for a student to realize this is being said about them in a very public forum (not just the teacher's lounge, for example) could have repercussions for decades. I've known people that have been insulted by teachers that took it to heart because they respected the teacher and took years to understand the comments were not only inappropriate but not worth paying attention to.

All teachers want to be remembered as an influence and want to change lives, but not in the way this teacher has changed some young lives.

Re:Less Honesty Please...

[JackOfAllGeeks]

Depending on the status of her blog, it's arguable how public that kind of communication should be considered. While I think it's dumb that she would post such brutally honest feelings somewhere the parents could find it, I'm not sure it's much different than if she were to say the same things to friends at a bar -- and in the bar situation I would definitely say it's her right to say what she wants without this kind of disciplionary action.

The fact of the matter is, sometimes this stuff is true. And it's definitely true that despite the best intentions, lots of teachers feel this way, even if it's only for the space of an afternoon after a particularly difficult week. Are we meant to fire every teacher who has a negative thought about her students? It's probable that there's more to the story that would change my mind, but I don't see how this is any different that suspending a student because he said he hates his Principal on Facebook.

Re:Says the blog was shut down.

[Assmasher]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sOtUI146FXAJ:natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com/2010/01/if-you-dont-have-anything-nice-to-say.html%3FshowComment%3D1297206567911+natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com+rat+dim&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

Re:Less Honesty Please...

[j00r0m4nc3r]

Normally I'm aghast when someone gets in trouble at work for their private blog/whatever, but in this case it's perfectly reasonable.

Why is it reasonable in this case? What does it matter what she thinks about her students, and why does it matter that people actually know the truth about how she feels? "Oh no! She might hurt the kids' feelings. Their precious self-esteem will be destroyed," you say. Kids so desperately need to learn to hear shit they won't like -- this is something that's missing from our society. Kids need thick skin. If she can get through to the kids and teach them the material, she has done her job superbly. In fact, showing her kids that it's ok to not be scared to speak the truth despite possible retribution is a vitally important lesson, one which too few kids even learn in their entire lives... Instead they turn into Compliance Sheep who never speak up or fight for what they believe in.

Re:Less Honesty Please...

[spun]

Oh, no! Someone said mean words to me! For some reason, I absolutely must get offended by this!

Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous, pervert!

Re:From the video in TFA

[Skidborg]

If you tell a child that they are stupid, then you aren't going to be able to teach them anything no matter how smart they are. They will simply stop caring about what you want from them. What she did would no be a problem... if she wasn't paid to be educating these kids. Since she is being paid to educate them, then she should be doing that instead of whining about how little they are learning.

She's probably right about being dimwits, but...

[JustAnotherIdiot]

...that's sadly still no excuse. My cousin recently became a teacher, and had to delete pretty much his entire online identity (or at least, the ones the school system knows about, like facebook, twitter, myspace, etc), as the school had warned him that stuff like this can and will happen, and they would rather avoid it.

If it walks like a duck

[stewbacca]

What exactly is wrong with calling lazy, sneaky, rude teenagers "lazy", "sneaky" and "rude"?

Re:Less Honesty Please...

[TheWanderingHermit]

1) This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit, and

Oh, no! Someone said mean words to me! For some reason, I absolutely must get offended by this!

You may not feel it's appropriate, but this is the reality of the world we live in. The school could be facing lawsuits like this, whether the plaintiffs are just trying to make a buck, or if they feel it's the only way to make sure it doesn't happen again, they are still open to liability issues surrounding this.

Even for teens, teachers are still enough of an authority that for a student to realize this is being said about them in a very public forum (not just the teacher's lounge, for example) could have repercussions for decades.

Decades? No, even for a moment? Why are some people so afraid of words? If there's anything people need to be taught, it's that you do not need to be offended by mere words, and indeed, it is far more efficient not to be. If you made a mistake, don't make the same one again. If you didn't, shrug it off. Whining about things (especially words) and getting offended doesn't change anything.

I've heard people say this, and it sounds like good logic, but it's good in theory and not in face. The phrase "I love you" is just words. The Constitution is just words. Hitler's speeches that riled up so many people is just words.

But words are how we communicate, they are how we express our thoughts and feelings. They are how we transmit facts and opinions, so the "Just words" argument really doesn't work.

These words are letting a number of students know that someone they respected and whom they thought respected them did not respect them. They are telling them that someone, a trained and recognized authority, has judged them to be inferior. So it's more than just words, there's a lot more involved. Even for people that will just "shrug it off," there's still damage that hits in ways we don't always see for a long time.

So it's not about words. It's what those words convey, communicate, and represent.

Re:Less Honesty Please...

[Sam Nitzberg]

>This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit

By whom? Unless she named specific children, who is going to sue?

Class action ?
(Pun intended)

You Forget. Teachers are Scum

[QuincyDurant]

They have no right to a union, no right to speak, no right to demand respect from students. Everybody except teachers knows exactly how to teach just as those who use computers or cars know everything there is about how to design and build them. Education is a mess because of worthless, lowlife teachers and despite the heroic efforts of principals, administrators, parents, taxpayers, and former students. All the smart people on Slashdot taught themselves everything they know, and, as former students, are experts not only at being students but also on being teachers. Teachers should be fed to the hogs, or better still, the students. Just imagine how much money it would save if students taught themselves and ate ground teacher instead of tax-payer supported lunchmeat.

I don't work for a school district, or, of course, I would be suspended and muzzled for this post. Quite right, too.

Re:Says the blog was shut down.

[BillX]

I dug up the last year's worth of posts (all two of them since this one). One refers nonspecifically about a co-worker's going-away party, and the other is a review of a fast-food restaurant.

All the "firing-worthy" comments cited in the news are from a single blog post from over a year ago? Somehow I'm underwhelmed. For those who can't be bothered to read it, it's simply a generic bulleted list of "I wish these were allowed canned report card comments"; it doesn't refer to any particular students, classroom or even year. Not exactly professional conduct, but... isn't this the same Slashdot that was rejoicing not one week ago about a ruling that a different state worker couldn't be fired for personal blog comments about her employer?