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Teacher Suspended Over Blog About Students
English teacher Natalie Munroe is in a bit of hot water after she described the precious snowflakes in her class as: “Frightfully dim,” “Rat-like,” “Am concerned your kid is going to open fire on the school,” “I hate your kid,” and “Seems smarter than she actually is,” on her blog. The Central Bucks School District has suspended Natalie after parents complained to administrators. “It’s hard to know that you sat in her class for an hour and a half a day and for her to feel that way it is like, it is an awful feeling,” student Alli Woloshyn said.
as subject says
I don't think this teacher's suspension over the blog is a violation of her rights online. Everyone is free to say what they wish without risk of government censorship. But on the flip side of the coin, everyone must also bear the consequences of their speech. She went online, said something stupid and now she has to deal with the consequences of that.
And frankly, she deserves to be suspended. Clearly, if she's posting this kind of stuff, her ability to teach those kids she refers to as idiots and rats is compromised. Does anyone want to be taught by someone who feels nothing but contempt for them?
My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
I don't know about you, but I always was pretty clear on what my teachers thought of me, and generally it wasn't all that positive...
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
...she would have included at least one post about union activity.
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
Link to the blog and/or archived copy?
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
That's not the issue. If she had spoken to the parents, privately, about their children that's one thing. To speak about the children in this fashion on a public forum is extremely unprofessional behavior.
Normally I'm aghast when someone gets in trouble at work for their private blog/whatever, but in this case it's perfectly reasonable.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Kids have a way of living up to people's expectations. She expects these kids to act like animals, and they're fulfilling her expectations. I'd expect teachers to vent to each other about the students (and parents) they have to deal with, but venting in an online forum displays terrible judgement.
My mother works as a substitute teacher. She takes troubled kids that every else badmouths, treats them with respect, and gets them to open up, stop being disruptive, and actually start learning. If a teacher is having problems with kids, it is as much an indictment of the teacher as it is of the kids.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Anyone got a link to a cached copy of it? I'm interested in seeing just what was written.
Quit yer whinin! When I was in school, we had nuns for teachers, and they'd tell you worse shit than this TO YOUR FACE. And then the rest of the class would laugh at you while the nun basked in your ridicule. It made you stronger, or at least work hard enough to not be below average.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
Disclaimer: I have not read the blog in question.
Just because she thinks some of her students aren't worth the time she spends on them doesn't mean she hates her job per se. She could feel that some of the students aren't great to be around and a joy to teach. It's just that those students aren't rant-worthy on a personal blog.
But then I realized the cable was blue, so I only gave it one star. I hate blue.
"Frightfully dim," indeed.
I not only have to agree with everything the parent says, but add two points:
1) This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit, and
2) I taught emotionally disturbed kids and normal kids. Even for teens, teachers are still enough of an authority that for a student to realize this is being said about them in a very public forum (not just the teacher's lounge, for example) could have repercussions for decades. I've known people that have been insulted by teachers that took it to heart because they respected the teacher and took years to understand the comments were not only inappropriate but not worth paying attention to.
All teachers want to be remembered as an influence and want to change lives, but not in the way this teacher has changed some young lives.
I get hating your job, I get finding the students to be morons and unteachable, but to post about it in a way that you could be identified? Idiot.
http://transformativeworks.org/
Depending on the status of her blog, it's arguable how public that kind of communication should be considered. While I think it's dumb that she would post such brutally honest feelings somewhere the parents could find it, I'm not sure it's much different than if she were to say the same things to friends at a bar -- and in the bar situation I would definitely say it's her right to say what she wants without this kind of disciplionary action.
The fact of the matter is, sometimes this stuff is true. And it's definitely true that despite the best intentions, lots of teachers feel this way, even if it's only for the space of an afternoon after a particularly difficult week. Are we meant to fire every teacher who has a negative thought about her students? It's probable that there's more to the story that would change my mind, but I don't see how this is any different that suspending a student because he said he hates his Principal on Facebook.
If you feel this way about our precious kiddies then please keep it to yourself. We don't want to shatter our impression of our kiddies.
That's right. We should just bottle everything up because the truth might hurt someone's feelings. And we should teach our kids to never speak out or tell the truth because it might get you fired. Talking shit behind peoples' backs is much more honorable and beneficial to society.
Since when that should be a fireable offense?
I think she should be able to say whatever she wants to as long as she doesn't fall into libel. Sadly, that is beyond a lot of people.
Insulting children in a public forum causes parents to complain and get the teacher in trouble. In related news, the new model of ship, the trireme is entering production.
are stupid
I don't know why people have to make everything public these days. Whatever happened to the good old journal or diary? Call me old fashioned but if it's not meant to be public, then don't let it be public.
I went to school in the UK in the 70s and early 80s. The only difference between then and now is that in those days the teachers used to say it to your face.
What she says may or may not be true. However, if your lawyer, your doctor, your martial arts instructor posted crap like this, how long do you think they would stay in business? Kids attending a public school don't have the option of shopping around.
"All things are legal to me, but not all things are conducive. All things are legal to me, but not all things are constructive."
Think about what you do before you do it, what potential ramifications it may have. Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean you SHOULD. And remember: anything you say on a publicly accessible Web site is publicly accessible (it should go without saying).
-uso.
What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
Not to mention illegal in many places. Juvenile law is a pretty different animal, which is why you often see news reports about teenagers with no name or picture associated.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Normally I'm aghast when someone gets in trouble at work for their private blog/whatever, but in this case it's perfectly reasonable.
Why is it reasonable in this case? What does it matter what she thinks about her students, and why does it matter that people actually know the truth about how she feels? "Oh no! She might hurt the kids' feelings. Their precious self-esteem will be destroyed," you say. Kids so desperately need to learn to hear shit they won't like -- this is something that's missing from our society. Kids need thick skin. If she can get through to the kids and teach them the material, she has done her job superbly. In fact, showing her kids that it's ok to not be scared to speak the truth despite possible retribution is a vitally important lesson, one which too few kids even learn in their entire lives... Instead they turn into Compliance Sheep who never speak up or fight for what they believe in.
between "too smart for her own good" and "seems smarter than she actually is," there isn't much room in formal schooling i'm afraid.
also, note the sweet irony of her including the derogations: "complainer," "rude, beligerent [sic], argumentative fuck," and "tactless."
see you in hell, bitch.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
I criticized my child's teacher for her blatant discrimination against my daughter; she had her teachers' union lawyer threaten me with a libel suit and the school district told me I was no longer allowed to communicate with any school district staff. The next year, I complained because her new teacher gave every other child in the class the choice to sit in a chair, but insisted my daughter sit on a blue "X" on the floor, again a violation of state educational discrimination statutes. The school's response was to lie about what what going on the the classroom, again insist I was not allowed to contact any school staff, and a trespass order restricting me from school property (for simply saying "discrimination is illegal, stop it" in the school office). Let's face it, schools are NOT bastions of free speech. If they insist on bitchslapping students and parents for speaking their minds, they need to apply the same standards to the teachers and staff!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
This one time when there was a teacher in a rural town way back when. She taught in a one room school house. One day she went out into the town square and loudly proclaimed for all the towns folk to hear how stupid her students were. She was sacked.
Then a new teacher was hired. Whenever her small group of close friends came over for a dinner party, she would tell them all how stupid her students were in the privacy of her own home. She kept her job.
If you don't like your students, that's fine. You can think they are all dumb as a box of rocks even. And you are welcome to rant about them in private. But in public, unless you want to lose your job, keep your fool mouth shut.
On the flip side, imagine the strokes she'd get if she'd simply claimed 'all our children are above average'.
Oh, no! Someone said mean words to me! For some reason, I absolutely must get offended by this!
Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous, pervert!
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
This is a real link to the text of the original blog and, shockingly enough ... it's just a blog.
The teacher does not call out any particular students by name. She is talking about her feelings about teaching students in aggregate, with the overall impression that she's considering several years' worth of students.
The list of comments reads like a joke -- she's making up comments that she'd like to say, but doesn't. It's a wacky list.
The students' comments in TFA are still spot-on -- you wouldn't like to sit in a classroom where you had a teacher who thought of you this way -- but you know what? You did. We've all had teachers like this. The difference is, in our day the teacher couldn't be summarily canned for holding opinions. Welcome to the 21st century, where even teachers aren't allowed to think.
Breakfast served all day!
But... that would mean that kids actually need to take a step out of their bubbles that society desperately wants to keep them in! Unacceptable! Censor violent media for children, fire teachers who state their opinions about their students, and blame everything but the child for their behavior! Learning that you don't have to be offended by mere words is just... unacceptable!
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
There have been many many articles over the years about a major problem in our schools where kids just get shuffled through the system, without issues being addressed, because teachers are afraid of backlash from p parents and administrators when they want to hold a kid back a grade or put them in a remedial program, or TEACH THEM HOW TO READ at the level they are supposed to be at. Also everyone always complains about how teachers are so "bad". So when a teacher decides to take it upon themselves to call out some of these problem kids it is met with suspension and ridicule? Perhaps a public blog wasn't the best place for this analysis but if we are going to suspend teachers for voicing their professional opinion on a kids academic and personal situation, how will this problem be fixed? They are already scared to even teach certain things. Are we going to scare them into not even wanting to care about our kids at all? Just push them through and get to summer vacation, right?
"I hope you know how very lucky you are to know me, because I am so incredibly incredible."
Dude that was 12 years ago.. LET IT GO.
Barring that, I want them to at least have wisdom and common sense. This lady, by writing what she did, is obviously neither wise enough nor smart enough to have figured out that it was a stupid thing to do. That puts her on par with those teenagers that post public pictures of themselves french-kissing a shoe while drunk.
#DeleteChrome
Purely playing Devil's Advocate here ....
But haven't kids repeatedly gotten their right to say what they want about teachers online upheld over and over?
I've know a fair few teachers ... as much as they start out really giving a shit, after a sufficiently long period of time babysitting other people's ill-behaved, spoiled brats with various anti-social disorders ... well, eventually, they're mostly just putting in time.
Nowadays they're so hand-cuffed by not wanting to hurt little Billy's feelings by telling him he can't spell, I can see why she would be ranting about the things she'd like to say.
Everyone keeps lamenting how we need more educators -- make it less of a thankless job, and let teachers actually fail kids and be able to enforce some form of discipline.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
...that's sadly still no excuse. My cousin recently became a teacher, and had to delete pretty much his entire online identity (or at least, the ones the school system knows about, like facebook, twitter, myspace, etc), as the school had warned him that stuff like this can and will happen, and they would rather avoid it.
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
Dear Ms. Munroe,
Okay. I get it. Parents should take an active role in educating their children. That makes sense Ms. Munroe.
But you are also responsible for those students' educations to some extent. If they are frightfully dim, less intelligent than they appear, and so on, isn't it sort of your job to help them with that? So they suck at abstract reasoning? Teach them how to reason better. So they can't do well in mathematics? Find a better way to teach mathematics. So they are petty and dramatic? Well they are only kids, at least they have that excuse. You, however, are supposed to be a responsible adult. Insulting children on the internet is just a bit petty don't you think? Maybe they are simply learning from example.
Of course, you can only do so much. And I can understand how that could be frustrating. However, the rest of us professionals have to deal with frustrating shit in our jobs every day as well. The difference is, we don't necessarily go home to insult our coworkers on the internet after a bad day. So, yes, children should be smarter. Rather than bitch about that, how's about you do your damned job and help them along that path?
Sincerely,
An Adult
If anything, it sounds like Ms. Munroe was insulting her own teaching abilities more than anything.
Motorcycles, Robots, Space Gossip and More!
I'm divided on this controversy, because I also know a couple of teachers. They post on Facebook, or they show up in IRC chat, and the number one thing that seem to like to talk about is how there's this one kid that they just absolutely want to strangle some days. Or lesser injustices like kids not doing their homework and such. Considering the stress of the environment and the lack of discipline in some kids, I think it's fair that teachers should want to vent now and then.
What bothers me more about the OP is that the teacher didn't blog behind a pseudonym or behind a locked Facebook post. I'm not sure that putting your actual name on a blog and making it moderately clear which kids you're dissing is a mature thing to do in any case.
Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
The comments in that link are golden.
What exactly is wrong with calling lazy, sneaky, rude teenagers "lazy", "sneaky" and "rude"?
This was my thought as well. There was very little information given about the type of blog, how anonymous it was, how locked down it was to outside readership, etc. A very locked down blog that a parent happened to get accidental access to (say from being "friended" by a friend or some such) would seem completely reasonable. A very public blog that was highly anonymous (say the only indication of who the author actually is being a small copyright notice at the bottom or something) would seem pretty reasonable. A fully public blog with her name plastered all over it, or (worse) students actual names in it would be much more obviously a breach of etiquette and/or rules. The article doesn't really give any information that might allow a reasonable judgment of the situation. For all we know she had a private blog with all anonymous stories that some overly industrious parent linked to her through subtle clues and complained about.
I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
A teacher going online and calling her students stupid, then getting suspended for doing so.
To quote the illustrious Forrest Gump: "Stupid is as stupid does."
When people run across something like that, why don't they copy it? So that even if it's later taken down, they can post a copy for others to see?
I mean, in Firefox it's as simple as File | Save Page As...
I suppose in some cases there might be copyright issues, but in other cases there would not. But I don't think I have ever seen it done.
Is she not just complaining about her work environment? http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/3725380-418/changes-after-facebook-ruling.html
1) This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit, and
Oh, no! Someone said mean words to me! For some reason, I absolutely must get offended by this!
You may not feel it's appropriate, but this is the reality of the world we live in. The school could be facing lawsuits like this, whether the plaintiffs are just trying to make a buck, or if they feel it's the only way to make sure it doesn't happen again, they are still open to liability issues surrounding this.
Even for teens, teachers are still enough of an authority that for a student to realize this is being said about them in a very public forum (not just the teacher's lounge, for example) could have repercussions for decades.
Decades? No, even for a moment? Why are some people so afraid of words? If there's anything people need to be taught, it's that you do not need to be offended by mere words, and indeed, it is far more efficient not to be. If you made a mistake, don't make the same one again. If you didn't, shrug it off. Whining about things (especially words) and getting offended doesn't change anything.
I've heard people say this, and it sounds like good logic, but it's good in theory and not in face. The phrase "I love you" is just words. The Constitution is just words. Hitler's speeches that riled up so many people is just words.
But words are how we communicate, they are how we express our thoughts and feelings. They are how we transmit facts and opinions, so the "Just words" argument really doesn't work.
These words are letting a number of students know that someone they respected and whom they thought respected them did not respect them. They are telling them that someone, a trained and recognized authority, has judged them to be inferior. So it's more than just words, there's a lot more involved. Even for people that will just "shrug it off," there's still damage that hits in ways we don't always see for a long time.
So it's not about words. It's what those words convey, communicate, and represent.
>This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit
By whom? Unless she named specific children, who is going to sue?
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
I have a former teacher that described finding two kids in the closet, having sex. She said, "They acted like they had not done anything wrong!" She also described the sex going-on at school dances (which led to them being canceled).
Personally if I was a parent I'd WANT to know these things are going on, rather than prevent the teacher from sharing.
FREE magazine : http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/prior/
All teachers think this about their students sometimes. Maybe this one shouldn't have posted it for the world to see, but what do you think the teachers talk about in the teacher's lounge?
Mad Software: Rantings on Developing So
Not in the suburbs in one of the best school districts in Pennsylvania.
In the city or in a rural district theres a good chance of it, but not in a good suburban district.
This teacher taught at one of the thirteen best schools in the state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Bucks_School_District
Here is a google cache of her blog post. To me, its seems she just had to vent it out. Judge it for yourselves.
And your type really makes me puke.
Raising kids to be emotional nutjobs because they are never taught how to deal with negative feedback.
FAIL.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Not sure about highschool, but in college I was threatened with a libel lawsuit and expulsion after publicly stating that Mrs Rainy-Moore "couldn't teach a toddler how to crap itself."
The lawsuit was a joke of a threat, but when the dean tells you to apologize or you'll get booted 4 credits from being done and over $20k in debt, you do what he says.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
I had a second grade teacher, who made NO efforts to disguise or withhold her contempt for some of her students! In fact, she openly showed it, daily. I remember so well, because I was one of those students for which she held contempt. I showed her, tho! In true GEEK fashion, I excelled in my work... IN HER FACE! :)
Willie...
Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor. Stupid git.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I will be more careful in the future to be nicer, more sympathetic, and gracious to people--both to their faces and behind their backs--since maybe it will make all the difference in their lives (even if I never know about it!) I will also endeavor to look differently toward situations that seem inconvenient to me at first. If I hadn't had to share my room with him, for instance, I wouldn't have gotten to know him better. I might not have realized how badly he was treated and how much he didn't deserve it. I might not have realized that I may inadvertantly (or unknowingly) contribute to--or at least not improve--the problem. For those, and other, reasons, I'm actually really glad I had to share my room with this person.
ahahahahhhahhahahaa oh wow
That's not the issue. If she had spoken to the parents, privately, about their children that's one thing. To speak about the children in this fashion on a public forum is extremely unprofessional behavior.
Normally I'm aghast when someone gets in trouble at work for their private blog/whatever, but in this case it's perfectly reasonable.
Agreed. Also shows horrible judgement, which is really the reason I'd be firing her if I was the principal or superintendence. If she's dumb enough to post this all over the internet what other really stupid things is she capable of? The fact that she claims to have done this years ago and the posts are still live doesn't help her case either.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
You may not feel it's appropriate, but this is the reality of the world we live in. The school could be facing lawsuits like this, whether the plaintiffs are just trying to make a buck, or if they feel it's the only way to make sure it doesn't happen again, they are still open to liability issues surrounding this.
I know it's a reality, but that doesn't make it logical.
But words are how we communicate, they are how we express our thoughts and feelings. They are how we transmit facts and opinions, so the "Just words" argument really doesn't work.
It works just fine. I think about it like this: do not let yourself be controlled by negative emotions. Positive ones are okay.
Never once did I say "ignore facts and opinions" or anything of the sort. I said to not let yourself be offended (and thereby be controlled by negative emotions) by mere words. Respond to things logically, not emotionally.
So it's more than just words
By definition, it isn't.
Even for people that will just "shrug it off," there's still damage that hits in ways we don't always see for a long time.
Fine. By "shrug it off," I meant to not let yourself get offended in the first place. They absolutely are just words, and there is no need to be offended by them. I don't care if it was a speech by Hitler, or by this teacher. Actually, getting angry or sad doesn't help any situation. As I said above, respond logically, not emotionally.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
On the flip side, imagine the strokes she'd get if she'd simply claimed 'all our children are above average'.
We'd know it was a lie, because she doesn't live in Lake Wobegon
There is so much awesomeness and win in that story that I'm going to go to Doylestown, PA and protest her suspension and demand her immediate promotion to Supernintendo Chalmers!
You seem to have missed out on the required reading for this class.
Why the term "snowflake" in the summary? Not enough racism going around to suit Slashdot these days?
It's not intended as a racist term, at least not when put together with "precious". See:
It has origins in the old sayings about every snowflake being unique (hence, "precious").
Kids are forced to go to school
They are? What about home school? Alright, that's not always possible. But there's one thing that kids aren't forced to do: be offended by words. If they are, then that is ultimately their own fault.
If the teacher insults him, he can't even shoot back because that would jeopardize his grades which could have severe repercussions for his future career.
I do disagree with this, though. A teacher found failing students because of their opinions really should be fired.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
"Beautiful Snowflakes" - its a reference to the belief that we are unique individuals, just like snowflakes. Rationally, of course, that isn't the case. Personalities, backgrounds, and other observable/measurable traits can be classified into several neat categories and dealt with using common techniques. Snowflakes are not unique either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowflake#Uniqueness I'm sorry, but you are the only one here seeing racism...
Link! .
I don't know about you but her comments are pretty funny. True though, it's probably not the best thing to blog about as a teacher. The students' comments were pretty great.
Sounds like:
A. The truth hurts
B. She may be as "Frightfully dim" as she accuses her students of being.
Nevermore.
Words are important. To convey, communicate, and represent an idea accurately is a difficult skill. But words do not do damage. As you say above, words are "how we transmit facts and opinions". Communication, however involves more than simple broadcasting. Communication requires that the message be both received, and understood. To blame the protocol by which the message is sent for "causing damage" is illogical (both in theory and face ? ). Discomfort does not necessarily indicate damage. Responsibility resides with all parties. The teacher's choice of words, if not her actual meaning, are ill-suited to the audience (whether intended or no) that read, and (mis)interpreted them. The audience bears responsibility for attempting to reconcile context, intended audience, and personal empathy in understanding the words on the blog. Two participants in a conversation each blaming the other for "bad words" reflects poorly on the communicators, not the terminology.
He who would be a man, must be a nonconformist. -- Emerson
Their classes are an hour and a half long? When I was in school classes were 50 minutes.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
The thing about words are it matters who is doing the talking. If someone you "respect" pays you a compliment, you probably feel validated, if they call you a "mindless git" you probably feel pretty bad about it. If someone you don't respect says either on of those things to you well you probably don't feel much of anything at all.
Most kids, yonger ones anyway resepect their teachers. They control lots of knowledge and have much more experience then the students. The students are not in much of a position to jude the merits of the teacher. In fact this is a situation where respect really is unearned it must simply be given.
Teachers really are in a postion to give kids a pretty false sense of self worth and that can be over valued or under valued, both are bad.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
How is defending oneself against a potential lawsuit not logical?
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Precisely, this. If we really dig into the cause of this, I think it would take us back to the premise behind a comic I saw recently. Can't find it now, but basically there were 2 panes: one from the past with the mother asking the child if she was nice to her teacher today, and the second with the mother of today asking her child if the teacher was nice to her today. All that can be expected from a parent/teacher conference about how bad your child is doing or behaving is confrontation.
Mirrored here.
I meant that the fact that there would ever be a lawsuit in the first place is illogical.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Sigh. Seriously?
What do you think about Bradley Manning - is he being tortured because he's being kept in solitary confinement? Plenty of people here have stated, with some degree of passion and assurance, that this is torture because it has long term effects on the psyche.
So, now let's consider a school age child. This is the most fragile time in a person's life, pschologically. They may already be dealing with severely stressful situations outside of school, such as parents getting divorced, parents out of work, a close family member dying from cancer, the death of a pet, moving away from all their friends, and any of a number of other issues which are recognized as the most stressful situations possible in an adult's life, never mind a child. They may be getting bullied at school. They may be struggling with poor grades thanks to any number of mitigating circumstances. They may be sick themselves, with a severe illness.
And then they learn that a person who is in a position of authority and has a high degree of control over their life has blasted allegations in a forum that is publicly accessible to their peers as well as thousands or even millions of strangers.
And you think that's okay...
But words are how we communicate, they are how we express our thoughts and feelings. They are how we transmit facts and opinions, so the "Just words" argument really doesn't work.
A reasonable argument in itself, but the logical conclusion of that is not, IMO, that it's appropriate or sensible for people to get so riled up over someone else's opinion of them.
These words are letting a number of students know that someone they respected and whom they thought respected them did not respect them. They are telling them that someone, a trained and recognized authority, has judged them to be inferior. So it's more than just words, there's a lot more involved. Even for people that will just "shrug it off," there's still damage that hits in ways we don't always see for a long time.
Either the teacher was a decent person and the kids really were a bunch of lying, scheming little shits, or the kids were decent people and the teacher was a vindictive asshole. My experience of the education system suggests that either is entirely plausible. If it was the former, the kids either can't cope with the hard truth or (more likely) don't really care but are playing the "poor, innocent offended child" act as manipulative payback to the teacher for daring to insult them. If it was the latter, then the teacher does not in any way deserve their respect and, more importantly, almost certainly didn't have it - it's damn near impossible to get most school kids to respect you as a teacher at the best of times, so I would put a lot of money on the fact that a teacher who would say things like that unjustly would not have earned the kids' respect in the first place.
In either case, nobody has suffered some great emotional burden placed upon them by a shining figure in their life.
For those whose Latin is rusty, try William Whitaker's Words. Cicero's proverb will give you a good laugh.
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
Looking forward to your blog...
>This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit
By whom? Unless she named specific children, who is going to sue?
Class action ?
(Pun intended)
They have no right to a union, no right to speak, no right to demand respect from students. Everybody except teachers knows exactly how to teach just as those who use computers or cars know everything there is about how to design and build them. Education is a mess because of worthless, lowlife teachers and despite the heroic efforts of principals, administrators, parents, taxpayers, and former students. All the smart people on Slashdot taught themselves everything they know, and, as former students, are experts not only at being students but also on being teachers. Teachers should be fed to the hogs, or better still, the students. Just imagine how much money it would save if students taught themselves and ate ground teacher instead of tax-payer supported lunchmeat.
I don't work for a school district, or, of course, I would be suspended and muzzled for this post. Quite right, too.
It's the same as being on a public street and stating "my students are dumb as bricks" while those students are standing right near by to hear it. It's not good.
>This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit
By whom? Unless she named specific children, who is going to sue?
Any parent that knows their child is a dimwit, as the comments were then obviously about their child. Then the child can sue the parents for admitting he/she is a dimwit in a public forum.
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Decades? No, even for a moment? Why are some people so afraid of words? If there's anything people need to be taught, it's that you do not need to be offended by mere words, and indeed, it is far more efficient not to be. If you made a mistake, don't make the same one again. If you didn't, shrug it off. Whining about things (especially words) and getting offended doesn't change anything.
I'm sure your ego is iron-clad and not subject to the same frailties that most mortals have to contend with*. We get it, you're secure and don't care about anyone's opinions. Good on ya, bully for you, et cetera. But believe it or not, a large number of folks (teens, younger, and *gasp* even some older) do care about the opinions held by people they respect - and when younger, especially those opinions of authority figures.
*Anecdotal tidbit -- the people I've known who most vehemently proclaim their immunity to such foolishness are the ones who've coincidentally been exposed to the most negative feedback in their past; and several are among the least secure people I've known.
Your advice is to stop being human. I'm sure that will work well for the general, um... human, population.
You're an ignorant and sociopathic shithead.
I don't hate teenagers. I hate humans that are arrogant, naive, and ignorant. You might say "many teenagers are that way," but in my experience, I've found that the average member of society has all three of those traits, not just teenagers. However, I'd never even think about becoming an educator (due to how badly the 'educational' system is handled as of now).
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
But believe it or not, a large number of folks (teens, younger, and *gasp* even some older) do care about the opinions held by people they respect - and when younger, especially those opinions of authority figures.
Which is who I'm speaking out against. I know this because it's obvious. But that's why I believe these people need to be taught that there is no need to act in such a manner.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
I hope your family are violently raped and murdered while you are forced to watch. Seriously. Telling someone not to be offended is like telling them not to think about pink elephants. You're basically telling them they are babies for being offended. They're just going to be more offended.
>>>pervert!
Ahhh..... you've seen my Opera bookmarks. Maybe I should change them to "private".
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"That's not the issue. If she had spoken to the parents, privately, about their children that's one thing. To speak about the children in this fashion on a public forum is extremely unprofessional behavior."
Oddly enough if the kids speak badly about their teachers in public forums, it's free speech.
Meh, mod this crap down, I followed a link to her blog post and read it myself. I'll admit, she lacked tact in that she posted some pretty poor taste humor. But she wasn't actually insulting any of her students directly.
Motorcycles, Robots, Space Gossip and More!
Your advice is to stop being human.
Actually, I never claimed that you should get rid of positive emotions. I just said that you should not let negative ones control you and effect your state of mind by not getting offended in the first place.
I'm sure that will work well for the general, um... human, population.
There's no reason that humans have to be offended by everything. And indeed, a more logical mindset probably would benefit a majority of the population (or so I believe).
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Other than it being against school rules, what exactly would they have been doing wrong? I doubt either was married.
What I find remarkable is that so many parents got upset its like they picked on and noticed her comment matched their kid. You would would think most parents would just wonder who the heck she was talking about and assume it wasnt their child.
[...] "They acted like they had not done anything wrong!" [...]
Christ Almighty! Kids, having sex, and without giving due notice prior to the event to all parties concerned! What has this world come to?
Seriously, what the hell? Unless one of them was coerced or emotionally incapable of making an informed choice on the matter, or unless they were not using a condom I fail to see any wrongdoing beyond a very poor choice of location.
There is so much wrong with today's kids. Self esteem issues, aggression, substance abuse, lack of basic social skills and manners - them having sex is the least of those issues. Or rather it would be, if they were taught how to do it responsibly instead of the moral panicking they are being subjected to. Well, that and the abstinence bullshit.
Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
As I said above, respond logically, not emotionally.
Emotions are alien to me. I'm a scientist.
-- Spock, "This Side of Paradise", stardate 3417.3
http://www.zombieapocalypse.tv/
Telling someone not to be offended is like telling them not to think about pink elephants.
I'm telling them that there is no reason to be offended by mere words. They have no obligation to do so, and there is no universal law that states that they must. I ask them to realize that they will be better off approaching the situation logically.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
How so?
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
I've heard people say this, and it sounds like good logic, but it's good in theory and not in face.
Speaking from experience, it definitely helps.
The phrase "I love you" is just words. The Constitution is just words. Hitler's speeches that riled up so many people is just words.
Yes, yes, and yes. What's your point?
Now, in addition, "I love you" can have significant emotional impact if I care that the person loves me. The Constitution is in fact just a sequence of words -- it's how we interpret it that matters. Hitler's speeches were words, but designed for a deliberate impact (so he shouldn't have said them) -- yet it was entirely up to those listening whether they would be moved by those speeches, so they share the blame.
Consider the case of a teacher insulting a student. In high school, kids might not have built up these skills yet, but it's never too early to start. It's not the words that hurt, it's what they mean -- which in this case may be that the teacher doesn't like you. In that case, you have to decide whether you care, and one essential skill is to recognized when you shouldn't. For instance, a teacher who hates you, but never really bothered to get to know you, isn't really someone you need to care about.
But the "just words" part is important, too. Do the words really mean the teacher hates you? In this case, maybe, but quite often, it's not what you think. This runs the full range from a teacher being hard on you because they like you, to misinterpreting the intent behind some words, to actually mishearing them, and everything in between -- like the difference between "Don't stop!" and "Stop! Don't!" If you immediately react emotionally to everything, you could be missing things like that.
So you're on to something here:
But words are how we communicate, they are how we express our thoughts and feelings. They are how we transmit facts and opinions, so the "Just words" argument really doesn't work.
But that's just it -- it's our thoughts and feelings, our facts and opinions, which actually matter.
And again, that's assuming that this opinion does matter. Without knowing more about the situation, I really can't say, but if you're emotionally devastated because one high-school teacher doesn't like you, you're not going to survive college. Not everyone is going to like you, certainly not everyone with authority or training, and if you are to participate in our society at all, you have to come to terms with that, and with the fact that it's not always your fault.
None of this excuses the teacher, but I have to agree that it is almost certainly the student's own problem if one bad teacher screws them up emotionally for decades -- not because it's fair, but because they're the ones who can fix it.
Even for people that will just "shrug it off," there's still damage that hits in ways we don't always see for a long time.
Why are you assuming there's damage? A lot of people are truly driven by a desire to prove someone wrong, someone who said something like "You'll never amount to anything!" That's not damage, that's healthy.
And I agree with cheekyjohnson in this respect -- the slower you are to emotion, or at least to being controlled by emotion, the more of a chance you have to see something like this for what it is -- in this case, a sad, bitter old woman whose opinion isn't worth the bits it's written on. Being able to see that means it's not a matter of "shrugging it off", it's a matter of not getting hit with the emotional payload at all.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
You fucking retard.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I nearly wet myself while reading the comments thread over at TFA. Post after post bitching about how stupid the kids are these days... and these same posts are riddled with spelling and grammatical errors. Wasn't there a Bible verse, I don't know, something about motes and beams? Holy crap.
Then there are the posts that on one hand, bitch about the "arbitrary" firing of the teacher, and the evils of teacher's unions... in the same post!
People are nuts.
Seriously? You can't understand the difference between a student complaining about the teacher, and the teacher complaining about the student? Here's a hint: the teacher is supposed to be the RESPONSIBLE one of this matchup.
it would be much more obviously a breach of etiquette and/or rules.
I'm not even sure of that. I'd like to see the code of conduct/employment agreement that she signed that censors her off-campus speech.
It's likely that it was a personal blog with no security controls to speak of, but also no specific names of students. If that's the case, I don't see the problem with what she said
.
Oh, no! Someone said mean words to me! For some reason, I absolutely must get offended by this! ...
If you made a mistake, don't make the same one again. ...
Why are some people so afraid of words?
How come you've learned this lesson but don't remember what caused you to learn it?
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
"In fact, showing her kids that it's ok to not be scared to speak the truth despite possible retribution is a vitally important lesson, one which too few kids even learn in their entire lives... Instead they turn into Compliance Sheep who never speak up or fight for what they believe in."
Congrats, you just described one of the reasons why America is in freefall.
I have friends and siblings that used to teach. I asked them the same question before, during, and after, "Do you want to have kids?" Their responses yes and maybe before they were teaching. A solid no while they were teaching and all of them have kids now. But it took several years before any of them would have kids after they quit teaching. No one seems to realize the damage teaching other peoples spawn does to the teachers themselves.
Parents need to stop being spoiled about their kids and face the facts. Your kids just aren't perfect. Multiple George Carlin monologues about other people kids cover this better than I can, look them up yourself.
I have a simple fix for parents who bitch, close the schools and have the kids learn from home over the internet thereby sticking the parents with the responsibility of sacrificing their career to stay at home to see their kids learn instead of dumping the responsibility on the rest of us. And don't give me that socialization psycho-babble that's what the mall/community center/park/town square is for. After a couple of months I'm sure most of those parents would gladly pay the schools to take their spawn back then face their own mistakes full time any longer.
The poster doesn't say which country it was in. If it were a country like Egypt, the girl would be killed and the boy would be punished as well. In China it would be a serious loss of face for both families. But keep up that "assuming everywhere is the same as here" idea.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Let's break it down:
You're a retarded asshole.
Yeah, he probably is, but that has nothing to do with the subject at hand and is more of you looking as though you are offended by mere words, which happens to be the subject at hand Old Man Rivers (for the rest of this specific post, I will call you Old Man Rivers since you tone comes off in that fashion).
School is a completely different situation than any other in the world.
So is being a coal miner. What is your point?
Kids are forced to go to school, they are forced to put up with their classmates and their teachers.
No they're not. You can drop out. I have a friend who dropped out in the 7th grade and is an incredible programmer. If you have issues with classmates or teachers, you can definitely get transferred to another class. So those are out the window for you Old Man Rivers.
A kid can't just decide not to go to school or even to transfer to another class if the teacher is a jerk
Yes, they can. Any kid in any grade can transfer to another class. I am guessing you have not had a kid with issues in school, but yes, you can transfer them (well, in public school you can). If they are going to private school and need to be transferred, transfer them to public school so they can get the dumb punched out of them.
If the teacher insults him, he can't even shoot back because that would jeopardize his grades which could have severe repercussions for his future career.
I don't know which prison you child went to school in, but that is incorrect. When I was in the 7th grade, in gym class, my gym teacher actually said to me, "If that was a cheeseburger I bet you would run faster" See, I was a big kid. Do you know what I did? I told him to fuck off and pushed him. Do you know what grade I got in the class? an A. If the teacher insults for no good reason, then it is almost a guarenteed A. That is the perfect time to shout the the instructor.
Now, did you learn anything today Old Man Rivers? School is not a prison. School is not mandatory. In this day and age, you can say whatever the hell you feel like, as teachers are so afraid of offending the kids to where many of them will let you shout at them (I know this from experience, and I was in high school 8 years ago, and I am 99% sure nothing has changed).
I will go ahead and give you a grade of a D- on that comment because, well frankly, you are soft and are completely misinformed about school today (either that or you went to private schools, but then you would just be stuck up, and hence you would understand why I called you Old Man Rivers)
The world is how you make it
do not let yourself be controlled by negative emotions. Positive ones are okay.
So it's okay to be controlled by a positive emotion?
Out of curiosity, would you consider lust to be a positive emotion? What about love? Even letting love control you has consequences. Feeling them is ok, letting them control you isn't necessarily better than letting anger or fear control you.
Actually, getting angry or sad doesn't help any situation.
I disagree, and I can provide two examples:
Sadness can lead to compassion. For example, recently, I volunteered for a few hours at a shelter for victims of sexual abuse. Just looking at the place it was is sad. So was the work -- sorting through donations. What kind of things do they actually need? Clothing that's whole, especially underwear. Soap, shampoo, deodorant. Food. Movies to pass the time while you're effectively locked away from everything you care about, for your own safety.
Now, bawling wouldn't help, certainly. But getting sad means I care what happens there. It means I'm going to go back there from time to time -- and it means when I see an opportunity to help prevent this sort of thing, like, say, help teach a self-defense seminar, I'm going to do that. Without the sadness, I'm not sure I'd be motivated to do these things.
Next, anger can be channeled into energy. For example, I've been in a few scenarios where my computer -- or worse, some server I'm responsible for -- isn't working. Now, smashing it in a fit of rage wouldn't help, and I want to make sure I stay cool enough to work, but the anger means I'm going to go at this full-speed until it's done.
I suppose you're right in this sense: There's a difference between feeling emotion and becoming that emotion. I don't get angry, I feel angry, but I'm still myself, I'm still in control.
But drawing a strict dichotomy between a logical response and an emotional one is artificial. Even if we disregard the fact that most of us are likely to make snap decisions based on emotion before we're even aware of them, and rationalize them after the fact most of the time, what are your logical premises for how you live your life, and how are they not ultimately based on at least your own personal preference, if not an actual emotional reaction?
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
So, now let's consider a school age child. This is the most fragile time in a person's life, pschologically.
Really?
They may already be dealing with severely stressful situations outside of school, such as parents getting divorced, parents out of work, a close family member dying from cancer, the death of a pet, moving away from all their friends
On the other hand, adults have to deal with stuff like actually getting divorced, losing a job (and not being able to feed their kids), people actually dying (and more often, as they get older), pets dying, and all their friends moving away while they're stuck in a dead-end job teaching other parent's spoiled, stupid rugrats.
The way I remember it, when I was in school I didn't have to worry about rent, food, real romantic relationships, real financial responsibilities, or anything of the kind. Yeah, some of those things you mention happened to me, but I wasn't "fragile." I had a gigantic safety net beneath me that made it OK to explore the world and my place in it.
On the other hand, if my parents had mollycoddled me to the extent that I could snitch out my teacher for saying mean things about (unnamed) children and that teacher would actually get fired -- well then I figure I would grow up to be a scared, vindictive, grasping, needy adult, and then the whole rest of my life would be my "most fragile" time.
Breakfast served all day!
What lesson? I learned not to be afraid of words through rational thinking. They have not hurt me, and I have no obligation to be offended by them (nor does it do many any good to be offended by them, and in many cases, getting offended will lead to irrational behavior).
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Here's a link to a relevant cached post from the blog.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3xdfvZq3_YMJ:natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com/2009/10/big-problem-today.html+%22Where+are+we+going,+and+why+are+we+in+this+handbasket%22+%22Natalie%22+%22A+big+problem+today%22&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com
So you've never gotten in a shoving match with any of the kids in school?
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
I'm sorry, but I believed you missed the in the closet part,and with a teacher discovering it the closet must be at school. And if you don't have any problem with that, perhaps I can come on over to your house and have sex on your kitchen counter.
They are, however, in an asymmetrical relationship. The teacher has power over the children, and, at least theoretically, not the reverse.
This means that when the teacher speaks harshly about the students, this should be seen as a threat. When the student speaks harshly about the teacher, no threat should be assumed.
I'm not sure that this theoretical picture, however, is quite accurate. I have encountered reports of teachers who are afraid to even criticize certain of their students for fear of threats to their lives (from the parents). I don't know how rational the fear is, but the threat was made, and apparently made seriously. In another case, the teacher was legally required to report evidence of physical child abuse (bruises, lash markes, etc.) but was afraid to. (I don't recall the resolution, but I suspect that no report was made.)
So as I said, the theoretical picture doesn't seem to match the reality. If, however, you believe the theory, then it makes perfect sense that the teacher not be allowed to criticize the students in public. So to people who have no direct contact with the schools, it may make sense. Personally, I'm unsure HOW it should be dealt with. Most teachers seem to be in a nearly intolerable position. *I* couldn't stand it. But many teachers seem to feel that they'd still rather be teachers than something else. (At least for awhile.) Possibly teachers college and university schools of education contribute to this. They may not prepare you to teach, but they certainly don't prepare you for anything else.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I am not really into British humor. And what did I say about leaving your corner? No lollipop for you young man. No go to your room and think about what you just said
The world is how you make it
So it's okay to be controlled by a positive emotion?
Well, that's not really what I meant to say. Negative emotions often have negative effects (loss of rational behavior, critical thinking, and perhaps even stress). No, you shouldn't be controlled by 'positive' emotions, but merely having them is okay, I think. Responding to situations logically is still important.
Feeling them is ok, letting them control you isn't necessarily better than letting anger or fear control you.
I agree.
But getting sad means I care what happens there.
You could just help them to get a sense of satisfaction. You don't have to be sad or angry to take action or have goals. You don't go back there because you are sad, but it is likely because you feel good helping them, I would think.
but the anger means I'm going to go at this full-speed until it's done.
Rational thinking can do that, too. I am of the opinion that getting things done sooner, rather than later, is the more intelligent decision because you do not know what the future holds (not to mention that you would likely feel a sense of satisfaction out of getting it done).
and how are they not ultimately based on at least your own personal preference
They are. However, that doesn't mean that any one emotion is completely controlling you.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
So when students post disparaging comments about their teachers on their Facebook pages and they are disciplined for doing that, everyone seems to get all up in arms about the students' First Amendment rights.
But when a teacher does the same to their students, it is justifiable to suspend them?
You can't have it both ways!
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Just mod down her blog. Then nobody will see it. Trolling about kids is no reason for a perma-ban.
No, when I was in school, I avoided such things. However, at the time, I had not yet come to the conclusion that words are just that: words. It would have been nice if someone informed me of such.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
would she be fired? I seem to recall many people lauding the labor board's decision against an employer who took action against an upset employee who bad mouthed her employer.
Or do we need to pass a certain threshold of being mean?
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
spun (1532) (older than dirt)
stregano(1285764) (who the fuck is this newcomer?)
Child, you aren't into humor, period. Everyone else got it. Except for, apparently, you and another window-licker. Do you both ride the same short bus? My original "insult" was phrased in such a way that no one except a fucking moron or someone with an ideological axe to grind could have taken it seriously. I am frankly shocked that someone could be thick enough to miss that. Who calls someone "toffee-nosed" or "malodorous?"
So, which are you, a moron or an ideologue?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Everyone keeps lamenting how we need more educators -- make it less of a thankless job, and let teachers actually fail kids and be able to enforce some form of discipline.
Sadly that right is reserved only for private schools (and even then only ones with standards, ones that are not afraid to lose students for the sake of the bottom line). This works because public schools are always there to catch the dumb, delinquent and violent of the bunch. Sadly also the poor.
The system does work for those with money or exceptionally intelligent children (Catholic schools can offer scholarships even at grade school level). For everyone else... well, that's not where politicians' kids are anyway...
Please, please, please tell me you're a hyper engineer-type and have nothing to do with actually raising, caring for, or managing human beings, dogs, or plants, in -any- capacity.
I didn't say that positive emotions are bad. I just believe that you should not let them affect your rationality too much. Feeling happy is okay to me, depending on the situation, because it doesn't typically have severe consequences like that of anger or sadness.
Yes, everything should be handled logically, and we should never be offended by words.
Yes. Why should you be offended by words? They haven't hurt you, you are under no obligation to do so, and getting angry or sad usually leads to negative consequences (irrational behavior). Just don't let it effect you in the first place.
You can espouse this "we should all be logical" masturbation until you're satisfied, but rest assured, my smug little friend, that people who truly understand the subtleties of how other people react emotionally to "just words" will always, in some form or fashion, be in control over people like you.
How so?
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Déjà vu- Both of the shittiest bosses I've ever had talked just like that.
Now run away or I shall taunt you a second time.
Consider the case of a teacher insulting a student. In high school, kids might not have built up these skills yet
I was in high school quite a long time ago and, allow me to remind everyone, it was every high school clique leader's dream to be able to break a teacher, especially substitute teachers, down to the point of crying.
It happened in fourth grade. Some of the other boys in the back, trying to impress the girls, started a little routine against our art teacher which brought her to tears by the end of the class. I felt bad for her. :-\
It happened in seventh grade. A few of the rich kids in the back had been trying to get the whole class up on the gossip that she was a flake. She was a French teacher... The French have that part of humor which allows them to laugh at just about anything, Americans see this as flaky because Americans are taught to have things to hate. There was a class period where they managed to break her down to crying.
They did it to one of the substitute teachers in eleventh grade. The guy had lost a hand somewhere somehow sometime. So he had one of the early 90s prosthetics. One of the kids drew a cartoon titled "Robo-Sub 2000". It wasn't supposed to make it to him but it did. He didn't even make it to the end of the class period. He left the room and the principle arrived a few minutes later to finish that hour.
I don't feel sorry for the students and I don't empathize with the parents. We all know the students are rabid animals trying to break their teachers down. If the teacher wrote a few things in her personal accounts of her occupation then... more power to her.
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
You're supposed to come out of the closet BEFORE you have sex. Otherwise it just adds to the psychiatric bills.
Exactly that is the part I am not getting is she naming individual students or giving enough detail to know it is them. Or is she just being vague and it could or couldn't be any particular one.
Having gone threw high school Like most other adults. The idea that kids are good and bright is false. Their brains art developed in particular areas so in some areas they are quite smart in other they are quite dumb. So they do act animals and do a lot of bad thing, and they are proud of it. The Good kids are being good just out of fear, as it could block them from getting into college or being punished by the parents, not because they truly understand why such rules are really in place.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
So you'll take advice from a doctor but not the crack-whore handcuffed in the police station?
You can't have it both ways!
The teacher gets paid to teach students, if she called the kids a fucking idiot, she is not doing her job because the kid is now never going to respect her enough to learn from her.
And who is the adult here anyway?
But when a teacher does the same to their students, it is justifiable to suspend them?
You can't have it both ways!
Perhaps some derivation of 'the customer is always right'?
For the record I agree with you wholeheartedly, im just thinking of how they are justifying this action.
As long as she didn't disclose the names of any students the comments were directed at it is free speech. If she did disclose the names of individual students in connection with the comments then she should be fired.
"GET / HTTP/1.0" 200 51230 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; Setec Astronomy)"
HEY *nom nom nom* I like paste!
"You can't have it both ways!"
yes. yes you can.
If my doctor fucks up my surgery I should be able to complain about them providing crappy service.
The doctor on the other hand still has to respect doctor patient privilege.
The students are not professionals, they have no duty to act professionally.
The teachers are supposed to be professionals and are supposed to act professionally.
Nowadays they're so hand-cuffed by not wanting to hurt little Billy's feelings by telling him he can't spell, I can see why she would be ranting about the things she'd like to say.
People need to harden the fuck up. Billy isn't 'differently-abled', he's just bad at it, and he's probably good at something else so just tell him he's bad at this. No-one is going to want to teach if teachers don't have the power to put kids in their place when they get out of line.
It's getting to the stage when a teacher's response to 'fuck you, you fat slut' can be little more than 'thankyou sir may i have another?'.
You could just help them to get a sense of satisfaction.
First, I'm not sure that sense of satisfaction really gives me a clue that I should be doing this instead of, say, having a satisfying meal.
Second, I'm not sure I'd have the same sense of satisfaction if I didn't feel that way. What these women (and men) have gone through is horrifying, and that this place has to exist is undeniably sad.
But I suppose at this point, there's little difference. Being sad did help the situation, even if another emotion might've helped more. The important point was that they were appropriate, and that I controlled them, rather than the other way around.
You don't go back there because you are sad, but it is likely because you feel good helping them, I would think.
But I don't. In fact, I can't help but feel a little depressed helping them. The work itself is pretty much drudgery, the surroundings are kind of claustrophobic...
Now, I do feel good about what I'm helping to accomplish, what kind of an impact I've had. I feel good about the consequences of what I did there. But even that is a lot more real having actually been there, and knowing what kind of a situation it is.
but the anger means I'm going to go at this full-speed until it's done.
Rational thinking can do that, too.
Sometimes, yes, but for what I'm talking about, the adrenaline was very necessary, and I think anger is going to lead to better results in this case than fear.
I am of the opinion that getting things done sooner, rather than later, is the more intelligent decision because you do not know what the future holds (not to mention that you would likely feel a sense of satisfaction out of getting it done).
Oh, certainly, but there's a difference between getting a head start on stuff I need to have done, and "Oh shit the server is down and the entire office is offline!" That's not a case of working efficiently and ahead of schedule. That's a case of running through the office as you try to get a handle on things. It's not getting stuff unpacked sooner rather than later, it's ripping the box open that has the replacement hardware in it. It's not a matter of getting the most out of your eight-hour day, it's "I'm going to work on this non-fucking-stop until it's done, and you are not going to interrupt me unless it's to bring me coffee or pizza."
They are. However, that doesn't mean that any one emotion is completely controlling you.
I agree. My point was, saying you act out of logic instead of emotion is nonsensical, if your emotions are necessary predicates for your logic.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Who were apparently educated by teachers like this one.
Her comments, actually, are not about specific students but what she would like to have available as report card comments. Still inappropriate and not very smart blogging in such an identifiable manner.
Here's a Google cache, which I'm sure will go away, leaving us with 4th hand rehashed content as a 'primary' source in this story
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?oe=utf-8&rls=com.mandriva%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&client=firefox-a&hl=en&q=cache:sALNOuknr30J:http://natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com/2010/01/if-you-dont-have-anything-nice-to-say.html+http%3A//natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com/2010/01/if-you-dont-have-anything-nice-to-say.html&ct=clnk
This is yet another example of people testing limits. Is it too far to say what you feel without naming names? That's a really good question for this case. When I was younger, kids respected adults. These days, kids have it in their heads that they can sue for anything and everything and have no need to fear or respect adults. This comes from society and parents and it's a damned shame. And this teacher is literally a product of the generation when I think things started to go bad. Not only did her students lack respect, but she did she and clearly she saw nothing wrong with it.
So what do we have? Well, we have children growing up without that essential "life/social skill" called respect. They grow up into adults without that life/social skill and are then left wondering what went wrong when their lack of respect bites them in the ass.
Childhood is about teaching children to be GOOD ADULTS. It is not only about protecting them from the evil world. It is about teaching them to deal with and survive in this evil world and maybe even to help it be less evil. Sure, protect your kids, but you're not doing your job as a parent if that's ALL you do.
... because they're the ones who can fix it.
You've made a statement that is important to your argument, yet sparse in detail. Could you elaborate upon how a child might accomplish this?
Some students are terrible, but so are some teachers. These aren't mutually exclusive.
I know I've been especially lucky so far, but then, none of my teachers have ever said anything like this to me, or to any of my peers. Consider that most students are not and never will be clique leaders. Even the worst of them, it's not really helping anything for the teacher to say "I hate you." That's essentially what she was doing.
In private? Sure, though I have to say, if you have that much contempt for your students, you shouldn't be teaching. It's not really clear if this was in private or not, though. If this was in public, and if it was using the students' actual names, that's really not ok.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
To hell with it being a private blog, the students are minors.
Wasn't it reported just last week that a child could not be suspended for posting about their teacher on facebook? Then why can't a teacher post generic comments about students? The ACLU took up the student's case, who will take up the teacher's (and what she said was less inflammatory than the student's posting)
Teachers failing students because of their opinions may not be fair, but sadly it's very good practice for how the real world is going to work, where having the wrong opinion can get you fired by a boss that has no incentive to care.
Which is who I'm speaking out against. I know this because it's obvious. But that's why I believe these people need to be taught that there is no need to act in such a manner.
This is a reasonable idea, and is important to the discussion- Could you therefore detail how these people could be taught?
First, I'm not sure that sense of satisfaction really gives me a clue that I should be doing this instead of, say, having a satisfying meal.
Well, if you care more about a meal than helping others, then that is your own problem.
Being sad did help the situation
So would visiting there under the pretense of helping others, and potentially society.
Sometimes, yes, but for what I'm talking about, the adrenaline was very necessary, and I think anger is going to lead to better results in this case than fear.
You can get motivated without anger.
My point was, saying you act out of logic instead of emotion is nonsensical, if your emotions are necessary predicates for your logic.
I seem to do fine without anger or sadness, but as long as you don't do anything illogical due to those emotions (and people often do), then they might not be so terrible in certain situations.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
So, now let's consider a school age child. This is the most fragile time in a person's life, pschologically.
Really?
Err..yes, actually, really. I think Bowlby made that pretty clear - not that he was the only one, but I do like his work. Also Hazen and Shaver. There is a ton of excellent work out there, and it's pretty consistent.
I think the rest of your post is a bit of a question-begging assumption, to be honest.
I know it's a reality, but that doesn't make it logical.
In a perfectly logical reality we would be (at our kindest) sterilizing people incapable of empathy.
((please imagine a significant look delivered at you over lowered eyeglasses. Maybe a slightly raised eyebrow.))
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
But for a teacher who is supposed to be educating the students (and their grades may affect future job availability), that is not acceptable, despite it happening in the real world. Especially when they're getting paid to educate.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Sure. You can summarize it in a few lines of text. "There is no reason for you to be offended by mere words. The words have not hurt you, and there is no universal law that states that you must be offended, sad, or angry. Realize how pointless it is to succumb to negative emotions in such a situation, and realize that it is not necessary, and in some cases, detrimental, due to the fact that anger and sadness can lead to irrational behavior."
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
I'm not into preying on children (in this case, I'll include >16yo) if it's sexually, emotionally, etc abusive. Imo what she did was no better than what Letourneau did. (Of course, maybe she has severe mental issues like Letourneau, too.)
First thing's first: if she believed a kid was going to OPEN FIRE on a classroom, it's her responsibility to make it official to keep everyone else safe. Hello, VA Tech shootings.
"Frightfully dim" and other negative epithets — her job is to teach and grade their work, not judge a student. She's clearly not in the right profession. And yeah, let's go Letourneau again: what if she'd found a "hot yummy sex god".
Don't they have psychological evals for teachers?! It's one thing to THINK things, but completely unprofessional and off-balanced to publish the thoughts. If Natalie Munroe's sane, what a bitch!
In a perfectly logical reality we would be (at our kindest) sterilizing people incapable of empathy.
I'll ask again: what good does it do to succumb to anger or sadness? In many cases, it merely temporarily deprives you of your rationality, leading to illogical decisions. I never said that you should not feel positive emotions (such as happiness). Though, you shouldn't let them control you all the same.
That said, sterilization needs to be employed, anyway. There are simply too many people inhabiting this planet as it is.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
I think it's her responsibility as a teacher to report someone she believes might SHOOT UP a classroom — she completely dropped the ball there. It's thanks to "teachers" (heh) like her that school massacres happen. Forget her identity or the students', she needed to REPORT that shiznit. Maybe get the guy some help if nothing else.
Re: negative epithets, they CAN go on a report card. I got all As, but PLENTY of remarks from teachers that weren't complimentary AT ALL. Now as a parent, when I get 'canned responses' from teachers, I go face-to-face with them and ask questions. Plenty of teachers put concerns, etc on report cards (though maybe phrased a bit more diplomatically, ie, "X is making fine grades but isn't living up to full potential.") A teacher's thoughts, if they're 'imporant' enough to be published and aren't just split-second angry moments, SHOULD be discussed w/ other teachers and parents.
Of course, a child can't help his/her appearance, so 'rat face' isn't going to go over well in any venue. But she's a teacher, not a Project Runway judge.
Your statements make sense on a certain level. However teaching a logical concept that is meant to take the place of a powerful emotional state on the mind's stage typically requires more than a succinct and logically correct argument. Human beings are known for their irrational behavior and beliefs- Beliefs that often do not succumb easily to rational statements. Many times empathy and emotion-based concepts will produce better outcomes when dealing with a child's problems than could purely rational statements, however accurate.
While I agree with you in principle, in practice I have found the approach you mention above to be ineffective.
The vast majority of humans I've dealt with, children as well as adults, are emotional creatures prone to bouts of rational behavior, and must often be counseled at that "level" when dealing with painful beliefs that incorrectly model the world around them.
I know this as well. However, you asked me how they could be taught, not whether it would be effective or not. For most, it probably wouldn't be. All you can really do is advocate the idea whenever possible. Some will vehemently reject it, others simply won't change, but others will. Other than that, there's not much you can do, as far as I know.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Finding a way to wiggle a little Python into slashdot conversation is a long-standing meme. I'm sorry you missed out on that.
What you're looking for is an argument.
I agree also, but I think it's worth mentioning that sometimes you have to say things that are unpleasant to children to get their attention.
As someone who previously taught disturbed kids (I as well), you should know this. I'm not saying what she said was okay (I'm kind of indifferent, not my children after all), but there are definitely times when what seems inappropriate might just actually be the thing that catalyzes a child's turnaround.
Of course, this lady is a just a whiner, and these words don't appear to be those of a motivator.
Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
I can't believe nobody mentioned tardblog so far. You we're closest but it just goes to a pythong sketch.
tardblog is a long defunct blog that was one of the funniest things on the net. I have no idea if it was real, but it does feel that way. It's one of things you read, you guffaw, and then you realise you're a terrible person for laughing at disabled children.
What makes you say that?
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Actually, I never claimed that you should get rid of positive emotions. I just said that you should not let negative ones control you and effect your state of mind by not getting offended in the first place.
They would not be called "emotions" if the did not affect the mind uncontrollably. Believing we have control over them is what lead to mistakes.
But i am the odd one that prefer been offended over been bored...
Professors could warn others not to let that one angry anti-scocial kid enroll, or watch out for the guy that really copies all of his assignments.
I would call it "Rate my student" and professors could click on a dimness scale, or give three tears for really, really whiny..
They would not be called "emotions" if the did not affect the mind uncontrollably.
Sure they would. You can feel happy without being irrational. That is much harder to do with anger or sadness, however.
But i am the odd one that prefer been offended over been bored...
You don't have to be bored or irrational. All I'm saying is to not let mere words offend you.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Point of fact, watch the stream and you will see no students were named, so unless the parents agree with the comments they have no idea about which comments are about which students.
Whilst a teacher venting their frustrations trying to teach modern students more interested in empty texting than learning, especially English, when current trends indicate they find even email all to bothersome, is somewhat immature, it is understandable.
Of course english teacher's have struck me as always being pretty, well, anal about expression and the use of language ie. grammar nazis.
So yet another offline mountain about an online molehill. The real answer is of course, if you must vent on line to relieve frustrations, create two identities and cultivate them to your heart's content, one to create a good public image and the other to rant.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
For most, it probably wouldn't be. All you can really do is advocate the idea whenever possible.
Why would I advocate your approach if both you and I agree that it is ineffective for most?
Other than that, there's not much you can do, as far as I know.
As I said above, there is, in my experience.
...can and will be used against you. So never, ever post anything with your real name attached. There's nothing in it for you but grief.
No... she did not. She was very vague and just listed some general comments she "wished she could use" for some students.
Also, this is dated January 2010. What are the chances that she would be teaching the same students in 2011, anyways?
Why would I advocate your approach if both you and I agree that it is ineffective for most?
Because there are few options and it is simple.
Many times empathy and emotion-based concepts will produce better outcomes when dealing with a child's problems than could purely rational statements, however accurate.
Then it looks like they will have to learn through experience.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
If you have to remain anonymous to avoid retribution, you don't have freedom of speech.
Doubly so if a weak kneed service assisting your anonymity can be pushed over by a subpoena.
i just read through the entire blog, including comments. here's the cache link,
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sOtUI146FXAJ:natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com/2010/01/if-you-dont-have-anything-nice-to-say.html%3FshowComment%3D1297206567911+natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com+rat+dim&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com
for those that don't have time to read it and take the quotes in context, here's the jist of it. she's complaining about the process of writing comments on report cards. she says it takes too long, and talks about how she was to sugar-coat her thoughts. for example, "socially awkward" ==> "works well independently". she then takes this idea to an extreme and creates a bullet list of what she'd really like to say ... which is where the "dim-witted" and "rat-like" quotes are coming from (and it there are lots of other good ones in her blog). i think maybe she was trying to get her point across with humor, i'm not sure.
if we took 100 high schoolers are evaluated them, i am sure most of us would judge a large percentage of them awkward, or self-centered, lazy, air-headed, etc. that's just how high-schoolers come across. it's an awkward time in a human's life. if i met myself at 16, i am sure i'd think i was a jerk (and the 16 yo me would think the current me if a jerk also, probably). sure there are the exceptional high schoolers that managed to grow up early and are already well on their way to well adjusted adults, but that is not the norm.
which is this teacher's mistake. you can't expect high school kids to have it figured out, and if you can't handle that, then don't get involved with them.
about 1/2 of the comments were from current or former students. it was quite sad. there was one person who thought (knew) that some of the blog text was referring to her specifically. a lot of students were just hurt to find out that their instructor has these thoughts running through her head about them. she didn't mention names in ber blog thank god, but then again, that leaves every student wondering if they are the "dim-witted" one. say what you want about the value of honesty, but respect earns respect. she just lost any ability to teach any student that is aware of that blog.
So you'll take advice from a doctor but not the crack-whore handcuffed in the police station?
It highly depends on the nature of the advice.
Thanks for the link! I knew that toffee couldn't be right.
I want to know if she named specific kids or not. If she did then yeah fire her. But if she didn't name specific names or indication to which child she was talking about. I don't see the harm b/c honestly if I saw a blog of one of my old teachers and just talking about his past students without pointing out who he was talking about I'd read through it and laugh.
Any parent that knows their child is a dimwit, as the comments were then obviously about their child. Then the child can sue the parents for admitting he/she is a dimwit in a public forum.
And when all the children's parents sue, the judge will be forced to dismiss the cases because of admission by the parents.
The BEST teacher I ever had never insulted anyone in class or public, that I know of. My FAVORITE, and one of the best, teachers I had routinely insulted the kids in his class. He was generally hated and feared by most students. But even the worst student in the school got better grades in his class than in years before or after. He was a great teacher, but routinely hit students with flying chalk or erasers if they weren't paying attention (impressive for a one-armed man). Today he'd be canned in a heartbeat. To the loss of the students. His aim and timing were finely honed. I'll never forget the chalk smoke flying off the back of George's head when caught talking in class, yet again.
I think Bowlby made that pretty clear - not that he was the only one, but I do like his work.
Bowlby worked on separation anxiety, not childhood fragility. Hazen and Shaver could be anybody, but I can only assume you're spinning their research to suit your point, too. Quote me some research that says the 11th grade (the grade this teacher taught) is the most emotionally fragile time of a person's life and I'll concede you have a point.
Breakfast served all day!
Name names? No. But, if you read the post via one of the cache links posted here, you'll see that what she did was effectively say "if I wrote this particular thing on your report card, it means I couldn't think of anything nice to say about you," so each student will know whether or not any of the comments should apply to them... they can then pick and choose which one of the insults is most relevant.
how the Net opened our eyes to who we are? I mean, we are all afraid of surveillance and data mining by great powers - corporations and governments. But the greatest abuse IMO is done by common people on other common people.
Think about it - nowadays you go to an interview for a job. It usually starts with the HR department. They check your online activities and find something that makes you unsuitable in their opinion. But wait, who is deciding you are unsuitable? A common employee from the HR. Sometimes there are company guidelines but often there aren't any. The spread of information gives EVERYONE the possibility to evaluate everyone else and all of a sudden not only your professional credentials are under scrutiny but also the rest of your character. The availability of this personal information makes the process EVER MORE SUBJECTIVE. We are people - we are "trained" by evolution and society to judge. Constantly. And we are always biased.
What I want to say but cannot find the right expressions is that perhaps the sharing of so much personal information is not good. For all of us. We cannot handle it. Just like personal freedom in society is difficult to handle, because it comes with responsibility, this access to personal information also demands that we are not blinded by our own bias (or keep it to a minimum at least). That's a very tall order for most humans. Very tall...
Whats sad is that the teacher wasn't bright enough to realize this themselves.
WTF is it going to take to get people to realize that posting private thoughts online is an incredible retarded thing to do?
Personally, I think anyone who uses Facebook shouldn't be allowed to teach in general. There should be a certain required level of intelligence to be a teacher and I'm pretty sure that using Facebook and Twitter are big red flags that you don't meet that level of intelligence.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Humans have been social animals for so long now that it's almost as difficult to ignore mean words from someone you're supposed to have a somewhat friendly relationship with - especially an authority figure - than pain nerves firing. It's especially unreasonable to expect the young to have mastered this skill.
More generally, it might not be such a good idea to train people to ignore what other people think. Society is already falling apart as psychopaths and hard-line individualists squeeze it dry. The last thing we need is our young to learn to ignore negative feedback.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
IMO the parents should be more worried about their frightfully dim, ratlike, and hateful children. That said the teacher was saying these things on her public blog under her own name, she deserves what she's getting for being frightfully dim herself.
As said above, you failed to continue the sketch.
Fortunately you updated it in a funny way.
No mod points by the way.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
I am saddened for that little girl, she will be stunted from having growth, all because one teacher could not spend the time to find the key to
breaking through to the girl in a mature and teaching manner. No let's just keep talking sh*t all the time in people's backs, yeah that's it,
this definitely shows the kid, that 1) you can't trust anyone, not even your supposed teachers, 2) no matter how good you do, there will always be some out there that do not try to help you, they only try to undermine you, 3) that this is the world we live in....
I hope the girl can find a good tutor for awhile until they change her schools.
Out of interest, have you read Bowlby? As for Hazen and Shaver, they could be anybody, but a search of Hazen Shaver turns up the people I'm talking about in the very first links. I do not consider that I'm twisting either set of research, frankly. I believe the implications are fairly clear, although I'll grant you it's not the primary topic. I assume you're also familiar with Hall's "Storm and Stress", and how Lerner and Anna Freud reacted to that?
If you're genuinely interested in the research, look at:
At the risk of you thinking I'm twisting something to my own ends, I'll also suggest Austin and Kortum (2004).
Obviously I'm professionally interested in this area and like discussing it. If, on the other hand, you just want to debate or make a point, have fun, but I'm out.
1 Location.
2 It's inconsiderate. But kids don't think. They really believe the world is there for their whims.
The school closet, or a school dance is a school function, not a private one. If they want some privacy for sex they can get a room, or take a chance on doing it in a car.
"Give a woman two glasses of wine and some pad thai, and they'll agree to just about anything." the Sports Guy
Having a twitter or facebook doesn't indicate a level of intelligence. Are you saying companies like zynga are idiots? As they are probably rolling in more money than they know what to do with. I know an indie musician who has both a twitter and a facebook, and he's gained quite a few fans (and it turn quite a bit of cash) through both services. The fact is these services are just tools, in the hands of a good mind they can do wonders. In the hands of the masses, it's just another shiny object to poke at.
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
Couple of points:
1. The teacher is a representative of the school. It reflects poorly on the school when their employee goes around demeaning their customers in a public forum. If you did this in any other business, you'd be fired by any half-intelligent employer. The teacher is being paid to provide a service, namely to educate kids. That position includes behavioral expectations so that they are not detracting from the educational mission. If they can't handle the job, they should be fired.
The kids and their parents, on the other hand, are customers (not to mention that they are customers being compelled to pay for, and attend, a particular school by force of law, simply by virtue of where they can afford to live). Customers should expect to be treated with civility, not personal insults.
2. Kids are required to attend, as well as to follow the instructions of the teachers. Because we give teachers authority, it is reasonable to hold them to a higher standard.
Logic often fails in these situations - pain is emotional, and emotions seldom heed the rules of logic. .
I guess no one has considered the possibility that these kids really are lazy, despicable, and sociopathic, and not the little angels their parents think? Oh golly, now there's a newsflash. So this lady decides not to sugar coat how horrible kids have become and gets suspended for it. Bravo to the parents and school board who think it's best to just keep sweeping the problem under the rug, or worse, refusing to admit there is one.
You really have to be a masochist to want to be a school teacher these days. Does the entire system need to implode before anyone starts to realize how fucked up it is and tries to do something about it?
I don't see what good thing the kids are going to learn from this episode, other than that their teacher lacks maturity. If they didn't respect her before, they sure as hell won't now. By throwing a public temper tantrum, this woman has utterly undermined any authority she may have had with the kids. Good luck getting them to learn anything from her now.
Being "compliance sheep" isn't the only possible bad outcome. The kids could also turn into self-absorbed twits with an unjustified sense of entitlement. Seems to me her rant just makes bad outcome B more likely than bad outcome A, rather than doing anything to improve the kids' learning or emotional skills.
A teacher found failing students because of their opinions really should be fired.
They won't call it that. It will be "disruptive behavior" or "disciplinary problems" or some such thing. But really, if a teacher and a student are trading insults, it's a sign the teacher has no more maturity than the student, and thus should not be a teacher.
I am sorry as well, for I believe you missed the "beyond a very poor choice of location" part. Children have to learn how to behave appropriately. And the two most common ways to learn is from examples and from mistakes. Those kids made a mistake. They should have confined their sexual activity to areas where it is appropriate. They should have received a stern lecture on the subject of decency and be done with. PP's comment, though, sounds to me like those kids were doing something despicably horrible by having sex. Cancelling school dances? Oh dear! That is going to make them stop having sex. Right. And it is so very pedagogically sound to simply ban the dances instead of addressing the inappropriate behaviour. Wonderful. And the kids' intimate contacts should all be dutifully reported to the parents. Because that helps to, ahm, well, it certainly must be for the child's best. Oh, and they do not have any right to privacy, anyways. Teachers are absolutely free to report anything about their students to the parents. (In case you are wondering, that is not the case under every jurisdiction. In many places children's privacy enjoys quite strong protection even against their parents' right - and duty - to keep tabs on their offspring.)
C_amiga_fan's comment nicely sums up what in my humble opinion is wrong with today's parents and, by that, today's kids: Constant monitoring and ever stricter regulations have replaced a proper upbringing that empowers kids to make sensible and informed choices about what they do, thereby stripping them of any sense of responsibility for their actions. Parents should not need to know whether their kids engage in sexual intercourse; They should be able to trust them to be smart about it.
Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
Actually you and I are the only real readers of Slashdot. All the rest are insane or a bot.
Although sometimes I wonder about you...
Truth: If it's not one thing, it's another
More generally, it might not be such a good idea to train people to ignore what other people think.
I didn't say that anyone should. I said that people should not get offended. That does not translate to "ignore everyone." Basically, respond to the situation logically. Getting offended will only make it worse.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
a lot of these comments side with the school district.
but a lot of the comments here (where someone WON a lawsuit against their employer because of dispariging comments about the boss) side with the employee
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/02/09/0233227/Feds-Settle-Case-of-Woman-Fired-Over-Facebook-Posts#comments
i do not see the difference. the teacher, and the person in the other artcile are making comments about their lives on their own time.
People have just never understood satire very well. It's too sophisticated and you get more attention if you get pissed and shout louder than the next guy.
This poor teacher could have posted that they should serve Irish babies for lunch in the cafeteria and the parents would've been just as UP IN ARMS and clamoring for her head.
Sure they would. You can feel happy without being irrational.
You think you are, but your not rational. Hapiness is no more rational then anger. Like all emotions, they are both irrational and they make you act uppon them. Not recognizing this open the door to the delusion of rationality when feeling hate. We all know how that end...
Hapiness is no more rational then anger.
No, but it's easier to control. Not to mention that feeling of sadness and anger can lead to further problems (such as stress).
I never said you should believe whatever makes you happy, though. I just said that merely feeling happy (but still responding to situations logically) isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
If you feel happy you do not respond logically, you see the world through pink glasses. Not becoming violent is not the same thing as been rational. One can be very calm and delusional.
Been moved by feeling is not worng. What is dangerous is believing we remain in control.
Only once we understand this that we can express them freely and enjoy them.
If you feel happy you do not respond logically, you see the world through pink glasses.
Which is not what I said to do. I said that, when the situation permits it, feeling happy does no harm.
Been moved by feeling is not worng.
It is when you're being irrational. Tell me, who do you believe is more likely to spout illogical arguments: someone who is perfectly calm and who can think clearly, or someone whose mind is clouded with anger and is constantly interrupting and insulting the other person? You'd likely pick the second person because instead of calming down and trying to come up with a logical argument, they let their anger control them and became irrational and impossible to deal with. This is a bad thing, and so many people fall victim to this. The same goes for sadness (and probably other emotions if you let them control your actions at the wrong times).
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
The clam one is a perfect troll. Don't listen to him.
Picking the clam one without listening to both arguments is not rational. It just prove your bias toward some type of emotion. It lead to the support of a relaxed, psychopath, torturer and the condemnation of it's victim that is overwhelmed by his pain. (eg: He is not a credible witness)
What i am trying to explain is that you are never fully rational. We are emotive animals and no matter how light or strong are the feeling, we are never really in control.
"The clam one"?
It just prove your bias toward some type of emotion.
Well, of course. Anger and sadness can lead to stress, just like relying on any emotion can lead to irrationality. Neither are wise decisions.
It lead to the support of a relaxed, psychopath, torturer and the condemnation of it's victim that is overwhelmed by his pain.
What?
What i am trying to explain is that you are never fully rational.
I never claimed that we were, either. I just said you should try to be rational to the best of your ability.
You're probably trolling at this point, but it doesn't matter.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
I think I did elaborate on how a person might accomplish this.
In any case, my point is better written as, "they're the only ones who can fix it." We cannot shield our children entirely, even from teachers. If we did, all we'd be doing is pushing the problem back to their first boss.
I can offer one specific piece of advice which helped me: "I am not a Volkswagen." It doesn't matter what they call me if it isn't true -- after all, if they called me a Volkswagen, it wouldn't make me any more an automobile or less a human being than I am now.
Or, in more "adult" terms, don't depend on others for your self-worth, and don't allow them to define you -- or at least be careful who you trust with your emotional stability. When someone says something cruel about you which you know isn't true, unless you have good reason to trust them more than you trust yourself, you can treat this as a blatant demonstration of the kind of person this is and just how little their opinion or companionship is worth.
I leave "adult" in quotes because children, especially teenagers, are much smarter than they get credit for. These aren't hard concepts, but they take practice to develop.
I'm not saying we should deliberately hire teachers like this, any more than I would advocate rubbing your child's face in manure to build up their immune system. I certainly don't mean the children should have any blame for this. I do think they should be able to deal with it, and if they can't, now is an excellent time to learn.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
First, I'm not sure that sense of satisfaction really gives me a clue that I should be doing this instead of, say, having a satisfying meal.
Well, if you care more about a meal than helping others, then that is your own problem.
I never said that. All I'm saying is that the reason I care isn't necessarily connected with a sense of satisfaction.
You can get motivated without anger.
I get the feeling you didn't read what you're quoting here. This isn't "getting motivated" -- here, I needed adrenaline.
I seem to do fine without anger or sadness, but as long as you don't do anything illogical due to those emotions...
I'd like to think I don't, but you are falling back into the same dichotomy I just destroyed in what you're quoting.
I feel like we're not really having a dialog anymore -- you're just quoting what you think is relevant and repeating your previous argument.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I'd like to think I don't, but you are falling back into the same dichotomy I just destroyed in what you're quoting.
I feel like we're not really having a dialog anymore -- you're just quoting what you think is relevant and repeating your previous argument.
Where did you come to this conclusion? I said that, as long as you're in control (and you take care not to get stressed out), I don't see a problem with it. Where did I repeat my previous arguments (besides about being able to do things without anger or sadness)? It's just that most people can't control themselves, which is why I advise against it.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Really? You see those as the only two alternatives? Either teachers can say anything about any student on any forum OR they can say nothing about any student ever?
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
I don't blame her for talking bout these damn fools these so call parents are raising because when I do start teaching I dare one of my student to act crazy cause I going to check them and there parents...hell no one want to wake up every morning to go teach some disrespectful immature kids I Blane the parents if u raise our kids right at home you would not have to worry about any body blogging about these animals now who going to check me.... JaCoby