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Teacher Suspended Over Blog About Students
English teacher Natalie Munroe is in a bit of hot water after she described the precious snowflakes in her class as: “Frightfully dim,” “Rat-like,” “Am concerned your kid is going to open fire on the school,” “I hate your kid,” and “Seems smarter than she actually is,” on her blog. The Central Bucks School District has suspended Natalie after parents complained to administrators. “It’s hard to know that you sat in her class for an hour and a half a day and for her to feel that way it is like, it is an awful feeling,” student Alli Woloshyn said.
as subject says
I don't think this teacher's suspension over the blog is a violation of her rights online. Everyone is free to say what they wish without risk of government censorship. But on the flip side of the coin, everyone must also bear the consequences of their speech. She went online, said something stupid and now she has to deal with the consequences of that.
And frankly, she deserves to be suspended. Clearly, if she's posting this kind of stuff, her ability to teach those kids she refers to as idiots and rats is compromised. Does anyone want to be taught by someone who feels nothing but contempt for them?
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That's not the issue. If she had spoken to the parents, privately, about their children that's one thing. To speak about the children in this fashion on a public forum is extremely unprofessional behavior.
Normally I'm aghast when someone gets in trouble at work for their private blog/whatever, but in this case it's perfectly reasonable.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Kids have a way of living up to people's expectations. She expects these kids to act like animals, and they're fulfilling her expectations. I'd expect teachers to vent to each other about the students (and parents) they have to deal with, but venting in an online forum displays terrible judgement.
My mother works as a substitute teacher. She takes troubled kids that every else badmouths, treats them with respect, and gets them to open up, stop being disruptive, and actually start learning. If a teacher is having problems with kids, it is as much an indictment of the teacher as it is of the kids.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Anyone got a link to a cached copy of it? I'm interested in seeing just what was written.
Quit yer whinin! When I was in school, we had nuns for teachers, and they'd tell you worse shit than this TO YOUR FACE. And then the rest of the class would laugh at you while the nun basked in your ridicule. It made you stronger, or at least work hard enough to not be below average.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
"Frightfully dim," indeed.
I not only have to agree with everything the parent says, but add two points:
1) This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit, and
2) I taught emotionally disturbed kids and normal kids. Even for teens, teachers are still enough of an authority that for a student to realize this is being said about them in a very public forum (not just the teacher's lounge, for example) could have repercussions for decades. I've known people that have been insulted by teachers that took it to heart because they respected the teacher and took years to understand the comments were not only inappropriate but not worth paying attention to.
All teachers want to be remembered as an influence and want to change lives, but not in the way this teacher has changed some young lives.
I get hating your job, I get finding the students to be morons and unteachable, but to post about it in a way that you could be identified? Idiot.
http://transformativeworks.org/
Depending on the status of her blog, it's arguable how public that kind of communication should be considered. While I think it's dumb that she would post such brutally honest feelings somewhere the parents could find it, I'm not sure it's much different than if she were to say the same things to friends at a bar -- and in the bar situation I would definitely say it's her right to say what she wants without this kind of disciplionary action.
The fact of the matter is, sometimes this stuff is true. And it's definitely true that despite the best intentions, lots of teachers feel this way, even if it's only for the space of an afternoon after a particularly difficult week. Are we meant to fire every teacher who has a negative thought about her students? It's probable that there's more to the story that would change my mind, but I don't see how this is any different that suspending a student because he said he hates his Principal on Facebook.
What she says may or may not be true. However, if your lawyer, your doctor, your martial arts instructor posted crap like this, how long do you think they would stay in business? Kids attending a public school don't have the option of shopping around.
"All things are legal to me, but not all things are conducive. All things are legal to me, but not all things are constructive."
Think about what you do before you do it, what potential ramifications it may have. Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean you SHOULD. And remember: anything you say on a publicly accessible Web site is publicly accessible (it should go without saying).
-uso.
What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
Normally I'm aghast when someone gets in trouble at work for their private blog/whatever, but in this case it's perfectly reasonable.
Why is it reasonable in this case? What does it matter what she thinks about her students, and why does it matter that people actually know the truth about how she feels? "Oh no! She might hurt the kids' feelings. Their precious self-esteem will be destroyed," you say. Kids so desperately need to learn to hear shit they won't like -- this is something that's missing from our society. Kids need thick skin. If she can get through to the kids and teach them the material, she has done her job superbly. In fact, showing her kids that it's ok to not be scared to speak the truth despite possible retribution is a vitally important lesson, one which too few kids even learn in their entire lives... Instead they turn into Compliance Sheep who never speak up or fight for what they believe in.
Oh, no! Someone said mean words to me! For some reason, I absolutely must get offended by this!
Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous, pervert!
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
If you tell a child that they are stupid, then you aren't going to be able to teach them anything no matter how smart they are. They will simply stop caring about what you want from them. What she did would no be a problem... if she wasn't paid to be educating these kids. Since she is being paid to educate them, then she should be doing that instead of whining about how little they are learning.
Supporter of the +1 Over Dramatic mod option. In memory of apk.
But... that would mean that kids actually need to take a step out of their bubbles that society desperately wants to keep them in! Unacceptable! Censor violent media for children, fire teachers who state their opinions about their students, and blame everything but the child for their behavior! Learning that you don't have to be offended by mere words is just... unacceptable!
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Barring that, I want them to at least have wisdom and common sense. This lady, by writing what she did, is obviously neither wise enough nor smart enough to have figured out that it was a stupid thing to do. That puts her on par with those teenagers that post public pictures of themselves french-kissing a shoe while drunk.
#DeleteChrome
Purely playing Devil's Advocate here ....
But haven't kids repeatedly gotten their right to say what they want about teachers online upheld over and over?
I've know a fair few teachers ... as much as they start out really giving a shit, after a sufficiently long period of time babysitting other people's ill-behaved, spoiled brats with various anti-social disorders ... well, eventually, they're mostly just putting in time.
Nowadays they're so hand-cuffed by not wanting to hurt little Billy's feelings by telling him he can't spell, I can see why she would be ranting about the things she'd like to say.
Everyone keeps lamenting how we need more educators -- make it less of a thankless job, and let teachers actually fail kids and be able to enforce some form of discipline.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
...that's sadly still no excuse. My cousin recently became a teacher, and had to delete pretty much his entire online identity (or at least, the ones the school system knows about, like facebook, twitter, myspace, etc), as the school had warned him that stuff like this can and will happen, and they would rather avoid it.
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
Dear Ms. Munroe,
Okay. I get it. Parents should take an active role in educating their children. That makes sense Ms. Munroe.
But you are also responsible for those students' educations to some extent. If they are frightfully dim, less intelligent than they appear, and so on, isn't it sort of your job to help them with that? So they suck at abstract reasoning? Teach them how to reason better. So they can't do well in mathematics? Find a better way to teach mathematics. So they are petty and dramatic? Well they are only kids, at least they have that excuse. You, however, are supposed to be a responsible adult. Insulting children on the internet is just a bit petty don't you think? Maybe they are simply learning from example.
Of course, you can only do so much. And I can understand how that could be frustrating. However, the rest of us professionals have to deal with frustrating shit in our jobs every day as well. The difference is, we don't necessarily go home to insult our coworkers on the internet after a bad day. So, yes, children should be smarter. Rather than bitch about that, how's about you do your damned job and help them along that path?
Sincerely,
An Adult
If anything, it sounds like Ms. Munroe was insulting her own teaching abilities more than anything.
Motorcycles, Robots, Space Gossip and More!
I'm divided on this controversy, because I also know a couple of teachers. They post on Facebook, or they show up in IRC chat, and the number one thing that seem to like to talk about is how there's this one kid that they just absolutely want to strangle some days. Or lesser injustices like kids not doing their homework and such. Considering the stress of the environment and the lack of discipline in some kids, I think it's fair that teachers should want to vent now and then.
What bothers me more about the OP is that the teacher didn't blog behind a pseudonym or behind a locked Facebook post. I'm not sure that putting your actual name on a blog and making it moderately clear which kids you're dissing is a mature thing to do in any case.
Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
What exactly is wrong with calling lazy, sneaky, rude teenagers "lazy", "sneaky" and "rude"?
1) This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit, and
Oh, no! Someone said mean words to me! For some reason, I absolutely must get offended by this!
You may not feel it's appropriate, but this is the reality of the world we live in. The school could be facing lawsuits like this, whether the plaintiffs are just trying to make a buck, or if they feel it's the only way to make sure it doesn't happen again, they are still open to liability issues surrounding this.
Even for teens, teachers are still enough of an authority that for a student to realize this is being said about them in a very public forum (not just the teacher's lounge, for example) could have repercussions for decades.
Decades? No, even for a moment? Why are some people so afraid of words? If there's anything people need to be taught, it's that you do not need to be offended by mere words, and indeed, it is far more efficient not to be. If you made a mistake, don't make the same one again. If you didn't, shrug it off. Whining about things (especially words) and getting offended doesn't change anything.
I've heard people say this, and it sounds like good logic, but it's good in theory and not in face. The phrase "I love you" is just words. The Constitution is just words. Hitler's speeches that riled up so many people is just words.
But words are how we communicate, they are how we express our thoughts and feelings. They are how we transmit facts and opinions, so the "Just words" argument really doesn't work.
These words are letting a number of students know that someone they respected and whom they thought respected them did not respect them. They are telling them that someone, a trained and recognized authority, has judged them to be inferior. So it's more than just words, there's a lot more involved. Even for people that will just "shrug it off," there's still damage that hits in ways we don't always see for a long time.
So it's not about words. It's what those words convey, communicate, and represent.
Have fun in prison.
And your type really makes me puke.
Raising kids to be emotional nutjobs because they are never taught how to deal with negative feedback.
FAIL.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
TEACH THEM HOW TO READ at the level they are supposed to be at
*you have been killed by irony*
Try Again? [y/n]
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
There is so much awesomeness and win in that story that I'm going to go to Doylestown, PA and protest her suspension and demand her immediate promotion to Supernintendo Chalmers!
Link! .
I don't know about you but her comments are pretty funny. True though, it's probably not the best thing to blog about as a teacher. The students' comments were pretty great.
>This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit
By whom? Unless she named specific children, who is going to sue?
Class action ?
(Pun intended)
They have no right to a union, no right to speak, no right to demand respect from students. Everybody except teachers knows exactly how to teach just as those who use computers or cars know everything there is about how to design and build them. Education is a mess because of worthless, lowlife teachers and despite the heroic efforts of principals, administrators, parents, taxpayers, and former students. All the smart people on Slashdot taught themselves everything they know, and, as former students, are experts not only at being students but also on being teachers. Teachers should be fed to the hogs, or better still, the students. Just imagine how much money it would save if students taught themselves and ate ground teacher instead of tax-payer supported lunchmeat.
I don't work for a school district, or, of course, I would be suspended and muzzled for this post. Quite right, too.
Yeah, reading the blog post myself, now, I have to say I think the summary is a bit sensationalist. She didn't describe any particular kid as dim or lazy or anything. It seemed more like she was just trying to make some bad jokes about, "What teachers really think." It's not like she was actually attacking any particular students or posting these specific comments in a format linked to specific individuals.
Like you said, it seems like she was just venting from teacher burnout. Maybe she should have had more tact, but honestly, the comments list is a bit funny.
Motorcycles, Robots, Space Gossip and More!
Your advice is to stop being human.
Actually, I never claimed that you should get rid of positive emotions. I just said that you should not let negative ones control you and effect your state of mind by not getting offended in the first place.
I'm sure that will work well for the general, um... human, population.
There's no reason that humans have to be offended by everything. And indeed, a more logical mindset probably would benefit a majority of the population (or so I believe).
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
What I find remarkable is that so many parents got upset its like they picked on and noticed her comment matched their kid. You would would think most parents would just wonder who the heck she was talking about and assume it wasnt their child.
You fucking retard.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Here's a hint: the teacher is supposed to be the RESPONSIBLE one of this matchup.
No, I don't see how that's pertinent. Just because she doesn't like her students doesn't mean she's not doing her job. It's not irresponsible to complain about people you don't like. Impolitic, maybe, but I'm less interested in politically-savvy teachers than I am in capable educators.
If she's not doing her job that's irresponsible, but if she's doing it despite personal feelings, I'd say that's the definition of responsibility.
Here's a link to a relevant cached post from the blog.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3xdfvZq3_YMJ:natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com/2009/10/big-problem-today.html+%22Where+are+we+going,+and+why+are+we+in+this+handbasket%22+%22Natalie%22+%22A+big+problem+today%22&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com
So when students post disparaging comments about their teachers on their Facebook pages and they are disciplined for doing that, everyone seems to get all up in arms about the students' First Amendment rights.
But when a teacher does the same to their students, it is justifiable to suspend them?
You can't have it both ways!
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Everyone keeps lamenting how we need more educators -- make it less of a thankless job, and let teachers actually fail kids and be able to enforce some form of discipline.
Sadly that right is reserved only for private schools (and even then only ones with standards, ones that are not afraid to lose students for the sake of the bottom line). This works because public schools are always there to catch the dumb, delinquent and violent of the bunch. Sadly also the poor.
The system does work for those with money or exceptionally intelligent children (Catholic schools can offer scholarships even at grade school level). For everyone else... well, that's not where politicians' kids are anyway...
HEY *nom nom nom* I like paste!
"You can't have it both ways!"
yes. yes you can.
If my doctor fucks up my surgery I should be able to complain about them providing crappy service.
The doctor on the other hand still has to respect doctor patient privilege.
The students are not professionals, they have no duty to act professionally.
The teachers are supposed to be professionals and are supposed to act professionally.
Nowadays they're so hand-cuffed by not wanting to hurt little Billy's feelings by telling him he can't spell, I can see why she would be ranting about the things she'd like to say.
People need to harden the fuck up. Billy isn't 'differently-abled', he's just bad at it, and he's probably good at something else so just tell him he's bad at this. No-one is going to want to teach if teachers don't have the power to put kids in their place when they get out of line.
It's getting to the stage when a teacher's response to 'fuck you, you fat slut' can be little more than 'thankyou sir may i have another?'.
actually, are not about specific students but what she would like to have available as report card comments. Still inappropriate and not very smart blogging in such an identifiable manner.
Perhaps she just had a moment of irrationality back in Jan 2010 when she wrote it? Perhaps the comments really were accurate for some students, if frank. Obviously she didn't use those comments on their report cards which is what counts. What she posted online was some rant in a personal blog entry, not directed comments about her students.
Check out this one.... And she teaches advanced honors-level courses to high school students who exhibit such behavior?