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Cancer Resembles Life 1 Billion Years Ago

An anonymous reader writes "What is cancer? It's not an invader; it's spawned from our own bodies. And it bears striking resemblance to early multicellular life from 1 billion years ago. This has led astrobiologists and cosmologists Paul Davies and Charlie Lineweaver to suggest that cancer is driven by primitive genes that govern cellular cooperation (abstract), and which kick in when our more recently evolved genes that keep them in check break down. So, far from being rogue cells that mutate out of control, cancers are actually cells that revert to a more ancient level of programming, like booting in Safe Mode. The good news is this means cancers have only finite variation. Once we figure out the ancient genes, we'll know how it works. It's unlikely to evolve any new defense mechanisms, meaning curing cancer might be not quite as mammoth a task as commonly thought."

223 comments

  1. wow by Denihil · · Score: 1

    this is awesome. less permutations of cancer = more chance of me living to be 400 years old! here's hopin!

    --
    WÌÌfÍ--ÍSÌÒÍ...Í...ÌHÌÍfÍÍÍ--ÍÍÍ
    1. Re:wow by CRCulver · · Score: 2

      Do you really think you'll still be in a cancer-prone human body for most of the span until the 400th birthday you hope for. I'm not as optimistic about the Singularity as Ray Kurzweil and similar futurists (though Kurzweil's The Singularity is Near is thought-provoking), but surely sometime within the next century or so we will have moved beyond biology. So, you only need miracle cures that get you that far.

    2. Re:wow by nickrw · · Score: 1

      Cancer is what causes human aging? Wow, you learn something new every day!

    3. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, but cancer is what kills 25% of humans.

    4. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 2

      surely sometime within the next century or so we will have moved beyond biology

      Whaaaa? Where did you get that idea? Also, do you really think that even if you copied your consciousness to a machine that it would still be you? It will be a copy, and "you" will die anyway. I saw someone once mention the idea of replacing neurons one at a time with digital equivalents.. that might work to retain your consciousness while moving away from biology, but it would be almost impossible to do..

      --
      which is totally what she said
    5. Re:wow by WormholeFiend · · Score: 1

      this is awesome. less permutations of cancer = more chance of me living to be 400 years old! here's hopin!

      Are you hoping to turn into some kind of Leonard Betts?

    6. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't even have flying cars yet. There's no way in hell we're "moving beyond biology" when biology has had a billion year head-start on us on development.

    7. Re:wow by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      Semantic bullshit. Whether something is copied instantly as a whole or a small amount at a time is completely immaterial. It's still a copy. Considering that all human tissue is replaced roughly every seven years, we're all 'copies' of ourselves already. It doesn't matter if a neuron storing information is the same neuron that received it a decade ago. It similarly doesn't matter if it's not a neuron at all. What matters is the information and the consciousness to act on it.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    8. Re:wow by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 2

      One day this talk of the Singularity and downloading our minds into machines will be viewed the way we currently view alchemy and orgone healing boxes.

      Futurists sell books. Warning: actual future may vary.

    9. Re:wow by jouassou · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Especially since curing cancer would allow Telomerase treatments to increase our lifespan artificially.
      From wikipedia :
      "The enzyme telomerase allows for replacement of short bits of DNA known as telomeres, which are otherwise shortened when a cell divides via mitosis. "In normal circumstances, without the presence of telomerase, if a cell divides recursively, at some point all the progeny will reach their Hayflick limit.[13] With the presence of telomerase, each dividing cell can replace the lost bit of DNA, and any single cell can then divide unbounded. While this unbounded growth property has excited many researchers, caution is warranted in exploiting this property, as exactly this same unbounded growth is a crucial step in enabling cancerous growth."

    10. Re:wow by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      One day this talk of the Singularity and downloading our minds into machines will be viewed the way we currently view alchemy and orgone healing boxes.

      And people who think they can predict the future?

    11. Re:wow by StuckInSyrup · · Score: 1

      Same was said about trips to the moon, back in the time.
      Not to say you're wrong, just adding "We will see.".

      --
      Ni.
    12. Re:wow by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      Are you hoping to turn into some kind of Leonard Betts?

      I'm thinking more along the lines of Lazarus Long.

    13. Re:wow by imakemusic · · Score: 2

      While we are technically a copy of our former selves it doesn't feel that way. If you could - without turning off the brain - take out each part, piece by piece and replace it with something so convincing that the brain accepted it as part of itself then you would never realise that you had become a robot.

      However if you built a robot with all your memories, emotions, thoughts and personality then no matter how accurate it was there is no way to transfer the you-ness of you - the real you, the soul or whatever - into the machine. It may think, feel and act exactly like you but there would be no way to experience it. If you were gradually transformed then the "you" experiencing it would never stop experiencing. By the time you are totally changed it would no longer be the original you, but only in the same way that your current body isn't the original you - from your point of view it would still be you.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    14. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you think the "you" today is the same as the "you" yesterday? I have some bad news for you, that foot long 5$ you ate at Subways yesterday is "you" today. The "you" from yesterday is rollercoasting in your city's sewage lines today.

    15. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 1

      Still, I'm happy with my brain being replaced piece by piece, as I continue being me. If you create a copy and destroy the original, I will no longer be me. Me will be a different I. This I wants to stay in existence while it can. If you only think of yourself in terms of you external actions that's fine, you can be happy destroying your current consciousness and letting a different consciousness continue to be you. Of course if you believe in things like souls then you probably don't really care what state your body takes.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    16. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 2

      I'm quite happy with that, I'm talking about my apparently unbroken stream of consciousness, not the body that results in that consciousness. Creating a copy and destroying the current stream may not give any noticeable difference to outsiders, but it sure as hell would be annoying for the current me, if I were still around to be annoyed about it.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    17. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the way our universe works, every 10 minutes the state of every particle is stored 'somewhere', the universe destroyed, and a new universe recreated from the stored state. Then every 10 minutes you will be a different you. Does that make you unhappy?

    18. Re:wow by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's called the duplicates paradox or sometimes the transporter paradox. If you get duplicated and then the original is destroyed, there isn't a continuity of consciousness. You seem to have completely missed this in order to make your point about biological renewal.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    19. Re:wow by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      It seems very superficial to base self-identity on the continuity of physical circumstances. Why is it so important to not know your consciousness has become inorganic? Ignorance is bliss? Sorry, I think ignorance is bullshit. I would be more unlike myself trying to hide from myself (which is a mental practice all to common among humans) than just understanding my own reality. If I lose an arm, I am not less myself because I am physically different from before I lost the arm. My outlook may be different, and my capabilities would be different, but there are few physical changes achievable without malice that would ever cause me to lose my self-identity.

      I think that people, and I know there are many, who share your perspective are too wrapped up in self-identity as physiology. (Which is highly ironic when put in the context of people talking about souls, but that's human subjectivity for you. If it made sense I wouldn't have to bother.) If who you are is predicated on what you look like, or what you're made of, as opposed to what you know and how you think, then you've probably missed the self-actualization bus.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    20. Re:wow by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      I submit that continuity of consciousness is irrelevant. So long as the "new" consciousness is identical to the "old", it's really a subjective matter to the consciousness itself if that's important. It doesn't bother me, and if I were killed and *identical* duplicate took over from that point, it must *necessarily* not bother him or he wouldn't be identical. So, if it bothers you, if the technology should ever become available, simply don't do it. I'd rather, paradoxical though it may be, "die" in one form in order to not die in another, than just to die altogether.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    21. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 1

      It doesn't make the current me unhappy, because it doesn't notice.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    22. Re:wow by Guignol · · Score: 1

      That's still not it (I think)
      Suppose you can indeed build a magical perfect copy of yourself.
      Well, which one are you ?
      I guess none of the copies want to die
      Now you make a better copy of yourself that is basically immortal
      But you have to die in the process or to die later knowing that somehow "this other thing is -you-" how conforting, *you* are still going to die
      So how do you want to die ? :)

    23. Re:wow by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      Uh huh. You keep waiting for your cyberbrain there, Astro. Send me a postcard from Singularityville (currently a sweat lodge in Arizona that smells suspiciously of controlled substances).

      I also predict that magical faeries won't power my flying car in... THE FUUUUUUUUTURE!

    24. Re:wow by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Moon shot. Magical technological singularity. *Totally* the same thing.

      Hey, I know going against the geekverse versions of astrology and homeopathy is heretical, but a man's got to speak his convictions. ;-)

    25. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What you point out is a challenge of logic for human cognition but it doesn't negate the fact that we are humans and this is the way our cognition works.

      I think it's time for a car analogy. If you replace parts of your car over the years, one by one, most of us would insist it's still the same car. If you go out tomorrow and buy another car of the same year, model, colour, etc, is it the same car? Most of us would say not. There is something within us that reacts this way to replacement. You might not like it but it's a fact that humans think this way.

      If you prefer a computer analogy, essentially everything that makes your computer unique, as far as is easily identifiable, rests on the hard drive. If you buy an identical computer and copy the information on the hard drive from your old one, has the computer been replaced or not? I think you'd try to stretch this, perhaps for didactic purpose, to get us to say it has not but I also think that any human would say that it has been.

      To me, far more interesting is the case of copying that destroys the original. Think of the transporter in Star Trek. The original disappears from the pad and the information contained is used to recreate the subject remotely from other matter. Essentially, every atom of the individual has been replaced but we think of it as the same person. If the original was not destroyed in the copying process, though, I guarantee that we would think of the one standing on the planet as a copy.

      It's all about context, isn't it? We may pride ourselves on being logical but, for certain things, logic does not drive our perception. It would be better to realise this and remain vigilant for its operation than to rail against it and cry, "I would it were not so."

    26. Re:wow by smelch · · Score: 1

      Why? It does you no good that way, unless you're primarily driven by imposing yourself on the world, instead of experiencing the world.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    27. Re:wow by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      Argh, I just ran out of mod points to give your post a +1.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
    28. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 1

      You're completely missing the concept of consciousness here. The copy may be convinced it has consciousness (and maybe it does - nobody can define consciousness so far, all an individual knows is that it experiences it), but it would be an entirely new consciousness that isn't being experienced by you. We're not talking about self worth or anything like that, we're simply talking about experience, sentience. If "you" is only going to live on in a separate copy, rather than replacing your brain piece by piece, you're effectively committing suicide.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    29. Re:wow by strack · · Score: 1

      actully i believe most of the brain cells in your brain stay with you your entire life.

    30. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 1

      I'd rather, paradoxical though it may be, "die" in one form in order to not die in another, than just to die altogether.

      I think this is probably even more narcissistic than just wanting to live forever - not caring that the current you won't be around to enjoy life and new experiences, but being happy knowing that an immortal copy of you will be forced indefinitely upon others.. of course I guess it's just letting your biological urges control your thinking, in the same way that a lot of people would die if they knew it would help their kids.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    31. Re:wow by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      One's subjective experience, however subjective it may be, is still relevant. I should also point out that you're very much in the minority position by being comfortable with what you're proposing. Science fiction authors generally argue that clones have the right to be treated as distinct people since their experiences are distinct if they live simultaneously with the prototype—so by natural extension, regardless of the apparent result, you're still creating a new person and then killing the other.

      Also, with our current understanding of the brain, the technology you describe would probably be a lot harder than replacing neurons gradually.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    32. Re:wow by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      By stating categorically that it's absolutely and without exception utterly impossible for a machine to duplicate the processing power of a human brain, you are saying that the brain is somehow magical. You are the one believing in faeries.

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    33. Re:wow by IICV · · Score: 1

      However if you built a robot with all your memories, emotions, thoughts and personality then no matter how accurate it was there is no way to transfer the you-ness of you - the real you, the soul or whatever - into the machine. It may think, feel and act exactly like you but there would be no way to experience it.

      You are assuming that such a "you-ness" exists, when in fact it most likely does not. The "you-ness" you are describing is, as far as we can tell, simply a large amount of information and just as amenable to copying as any other piece of information.

      Yes, if we created a person-duplicator and created a robot clone of you, the new version would eventually diverge from biological you and the "you" that's implemented in flesh wouldn't magically get transferred over to the robot version; it's like a source code branch that never gets merged back in to the main trunk, but keeps on being developed.

      But so what? When you have children, your "you-ness" doesn't magically transfer over to them either, and yet people still have children. This would be like having children, except your "child" would be a perfect copy of yourself.

    34. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actully i believe most of the brain cells in your brain stay with you your entire life

      But those cells metabolize and repair themselves with new molecules. They are not made up of the same molecules they were 10 years ago, let alone your whole life.

    35. Re:wow by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      But the problem is the Matrix "How do machines know what chicken tastes like?" bit, in that machines don't do nuances and it is the nuances that make us who we are.

      I mean I'm sure if we followed you around for a year filming and then threw a couple of thousand IBM programmers on it they could make a pretty damned perfect simulation of you running on Blue Gene. It would have your mannerisms, have your laugh, to those interacting with it, even those that knew you, it would probably be pretty lifelike and "real". But we tech guys would know that underneath the glossy exterior you would have path finding subroutines and an AI not much different than a chess computer, yet you don't think that way, do you?

      While I wouldn't mind having some of these old limbs replaced with cybernetics in the future, the problem with replacing bits of the brain is at what point does it cease to be you and just becomes a simulation. We organics are illogical gut reacting seat of our pants kinds of creatures and machines just don't do that well, and I don't see shrinking the diodes to nanoscale changing that At what point does it go from you laughing because you thought something was funny to because the programs say that would be your typical response?

      As for TFA as someone who has lost relatives to cancer and seen first hand what it can do to the human body anything we learn that helps us to place cancer alongside polio is in the history books is great in my book. Hell there are so many different ways to kill us from car wrecks to heart attacks I'm sure losing one won't be a big deal and that one is pure nasty. Not to mention with all the chemicals now in our systems (last I read even newborns test positive for plastics in the blood) cancers seem to be on the rise, so anything that can take cancer out of the equation is a big win in my book.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    36. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're entirely missing the distinction being drawn. If we created a computer that in every detectable measure had the same mental knowledge, experience, skills, talents, and abilities as Ronald Reagan had at age 72, would you consider that to in fact be Ronald Reagan? Would that computer be entitled to all of Ronald Reagan's belongings, and be considered Nancy Reagan's husband? What if instead that computer existed while he was still alive at age 72 and were and imbued with his consciousness then? Would the computer be Ronald Reagan, or would the still-living and capable Ronald Reagan human be Ronald Reagan, or both? Would it be excusable to kill the human Ronald Reagan after the computer Ronald Reagan came into existence?

      I suggest that most people -- myself included -- would see the computer as being a separate existence from Ronald Reagan, and not the man himself. At the same time, if most people found out that a handful of his (the human's) neurons had been replaced by inorganic neurons, they would still consider it to be the same person as beforehand. And, to undercut your claim that we're biased for the viewpoint, most people -- idiot reporters and bad sci-fi excluded -- would see a physical clone of a person as not the actual same person as the one who was cloned.

    37. Re:wow by kokojie · · Score: 1

      Actually cancer would kill all humans if the other 75% didn't develop a fatal disease before cancer had a chance.

    38. Re:wow by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Akira!

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    39. Re:wow by Effexor · · Score: 1

      What if the after making the duplicate, we handed him a machete and told him to dispose of the original? Would you still not mind? Sure, he might not.. though I think I'd be a little uncomfortable with it, so what does that say about the both of you?

      --

      As the air to a bird or the sea to a fish, so is contempt to the contemptible -W.B.

    40. Re:wow by chichilalescu · · Score: 1

      actually, it does a lot of good to "I, the copy", who will remember wanting to live forever, and then living forever. "I, the original" might indeed resent "the copy", but that's perfectly human and completely irrelevant to the copy.
      as far as the mental sanity of "the original" is concerned, it would indeed be better to separate them altogether, or simply tell them the copying process failed and "turn on the copy" only after their death.

      what you have to understand is that before the actual copying process, "I, the original, am the copy".

      --
      new sig
    41. Re:wow by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      I'm not missing anything, there is a self worth component here that people want to ignore because *it is* superficial. The definition of what a person is, what makes 'me', 'me' and 'you', 'you', is the crux of the matter. If a person is consciousness alone, which I what I believe, then continuity or duplication is absolutely irrelevant. It doesn't matter when, or how, a consciousness exists so long as it is able to act. These are arbitrary lines drawn in the sand. However, if a person is more than consciousness, if 'personhood' is as much biological self-image or continuity (a strange abstraction to be hung up on objectively, I think it's such a mental barrier simply because it's impossible currently to have a true lapse in continuity, the closest one can come is a coma or amnesia), then we have created a problem through that definition.

      And again you're apparently one of those who thinks that gradual replacement is somehow different from replacement at a stroke. I'm sorry but that's nonsense. Why isn't replacing the last neuron suicide? Because 99.9continuing% is being done by an inorganic structure? So killing the last cell isn't suicide even when it's the only one left, but killing them all to achieve THE SAME LEVEL OF FUNCTION is? Nothing more than subjective nonsense about scale, driven by subjective and arbitrary importance placed on 'continuity'. The results are exactly the same.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    42. Re:wow by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1
      It's pretty simple, if you copy a consciousness, and that consciousness is aware and able to act, both are the person. MechaReagan would be, ethically, equivalent to Reagan himself. The legal issues are naught but dragons, essentially the law has never had to deal with that matter before, so new laws would have to be drafted. Most likely if the scenario ever becomes viable, provisions will prevent an individual from having multiple consciousnesses active at a given time, and it only would make sense for a consciousness copy to be able to inherit whatever station the original had, being, you know, identical.

      And, to undercut your claim that we're biased for the viewpoint, most people -- idiot reporters and bad sci-fi excluded -- would see a physical clone of a person as not the actual same person as the one who was cloned.

      Clones are mere biological copies. Identical twins might have similarly structured brains, that doesn't make them the same person *because* the consciousness is different. Where the consciousness is identical, they are functionally the same person at the moment of duplication. However, if the copied consciousnesses exist separately at the same time, they will begin to diverge as different experiences develop in different ways.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    43. Re:wow by smelch · · Score: 1

      So the value to you the original is being able to impose yourself on the world. You gave birth to the immortal and it is identical to you, the ultimate legacy. I can see that making you feel better about dieing while you are alive. Thats not what I think most people are thinking when they talk about transporting their mind to a machine and living forever, and that is what I meant by my previous comment. Does this desire come from a different root from the desire to have children? The concepts are not so dissimilar.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    44. Re:wow by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 0

      Wow, you're an ass. Wanting to live is narcissistic? Never mind that the copy's enjoyment and experience are by definition the original's + n > the original's. The duration is what makes it acceptable or not? Fuck you.

      At this point I resent having you "forced" on my world for your life span. Did that sound stupid? It should.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    45. Re:wow by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      Humans are hung up on their organics. I was reading a interesting perspective from Dr. Lin Yutang about the metaphysical comparison of men vs. spirits. He made a very important realization, all satisfactions imply wants. In order for me to be satisfied with a meal I must first be hungry, etc. Further, all senses imply the physicality of sensory organs. I must have a tongue to taste with, etc. He thought that the classical concept of spirits must be unbearable for them if it were possible, because the lacked the physicality to be satisfied or pleased by anything. However, eventually he theorized that these spirits if they existed must sense and be satisfied in completely different ways from the mortal. Which leads me to the point I would make: machine senses might be completely different in structure and operation, but how they are perceived by the mind, organic or inorganic, is really up to that mind. This can be seen with the experiments done with rat neurons being used to drive robots. The rat neurons are being stimulated by their mechanical sensors, in a way which is completely different from how they would be stimulated by their natural eyes/ears/etc., but the principle is the same, and they then act using structures completely different from legs, but again, with the same principle. Animal minds are clearly very adaptable. With the right interfaces they can see without eyes, hear without ears, move without legs, hold without hands, on and on. To make then the brain inorganic rather than organic is quite arbitrary.

      And as for simulations, nobody besides Dr. Kurzweil himself seriously suggests simply simulating people (his idea of "reanimating" his father through strong AI and his own recollection is nothing more than pathetic desperation honestly). If I were given the option of creating what I would know to be a mere simulation of myself I would skip it. The key to machine consciousness is the same as the key to human consciousness: adaptability and the capacity for self-directed change. Once a simulation/AI is complex enough to change itself as quickly and effectively as a human being, it too will be effectively human, ethically equivalent in my mind, and beyond the label of 'simulation'.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    46. Re:wow by n+dot+l · · Score: 1

      However if you built a robot with all your memories, emotions, thoughts and personality then no matter how accurate it was there is no way to transfer the you-ness of you - the real you, the soul or whatever - into the machine.

      Huh? That's like taking a group of two twos and a group of three and one and asserting that the groups somehow have a different "fourness" to them.

    47. Re:wow by chichilalescu · · Score: 1

      it's not about imposing myself on the world. that's why I want to have kids, and why I want to tell people about my view of the world.
      I want to live forever because I want to know the future. in a way. it's complicated, but the basic idea is that I want to know things and I can't find them out if I die. to put it in another way: I want as much time as I can get, and if I can think of a way to get more, I will do my best to make it happen.
      I want to see a solar eclipse from the moon. I want to understand the working of the human mind starting from the fundamental principles of the universe (or an explanation of why something like that is impossible). I want to know if the Riemmann hypothesis is true. and other stuff.
      I doubt I can get all that within the next ~50 years, so if I can preserve my consciousness so that I can experience more, I would like to do that.
      I realize it's selfish, and you might see it as "imposing myself on the world", because I don't plan on just watching as others are making these things happen, but it's what I want. To be more correct, what I've just said is as close as I can get to what I want, because on this level of "want" I can't be sure I am capable of properly talking about it.

      --
      new sig
    48. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 1

      Why isn't replacing the last neuron suicide

      Imagine a a server. This server has hot swappable power supplies, RAM, hard drives, even processors. If you replace only one part at a time, you keep the server running.

      You could just replace all the hardware at once, but that would require taking the system offline. You could start it up again, but it was definitely offline and all the processes have to start again from scratch.

      Since consciousness doesn't appear to come from only one part of the brain (that we know of), and the brain has plenty of redundancy built in - as observed by people recovering from brain damage - then things should just keep ticking along as if nothing happened, and the same consciousness will still be running on the system. Maybe it just wouldn't work though. Maybe there is a part of the brain where consciousness is seated, and you would end up destroying and restarting it all anyway. Who knows. I think it could work though, and if you never have to shut the whole system down simultaneously, maybe the same consciousness can continue. I don't know if we'll ever understand the nature of consciousness though. I always say I wouldn't believe it was possible, if I weren't already experiencing it myself.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    49. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 1

      Wow, you're an ass.

      Sometimes, yes :)

      Wanting to live is narcissistic?

      No. A lot of people are afraid of dying. You however said:

      I'd rather, paradoxical though it may be, "die" in one form in order to not die in another, than just to die altogether.

      So, you make it sound an awful lot like you don't care about dying, as long as there is something out there that acts like you. Even though the copy would act exactly the same as you, and think it was you, the original you would be dead. Which is why everybody else finds the idea repulsive and scary. Of course, it won't be scary if you don't exist any more, but I still find the overall idea quite sad. A consciousness just winking out of existence.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    50. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 1

      Hah, I forgot to read the rest of your comment because the start was so funny.

      Never mind that the copy's enjoyment and experience are by definition the original's + n > the original's

      You have such a strange detached notion of life. Would you be happy to have all your family and friends killed, if you knew that copies would come back the next day, all with amazing new experiences programmed into them? Bleh. The results are not all that matters, or everyone would just kill themselves to get the inevitable results out of the way.

      The duration is what makes it acceptable or not?

      Frankly, yes. Read "The Bicentennial Man" (by Asimov, who wrote many interesting stories questioning things like consciousness), or just watch the movie if you can't be bothered. People are creeped out by the idea of immortal beings, not to mention that it's just unsustainable while we only have one planet worth of space and resources.

      At this point I resent having you "forced" on my world for your life span. Did that sound stupid? It should.

      I'm not sure why. Did you not mean it?

      --
      which is totally what she said
    51. Re:wow by shadowfaxcrx · · Score: 1

      The point of wanting to live forever is that *I* will live forever. If by downloading me into a computer you don't manage to transfer the *I* that *I* experience, you've failed to meet the goal. I don't care if something that thinks it's me lives forever. I don't want to live forever because I'm an egotist. I want to live forever because *I* want to experience it. If you replace me with a robot, that doesn't work because I will still die, leaving the new robot to have all the fun that *I* should be having.

      --
      "I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
    52. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 1

      It's funny how some people don't seem to understand what we mean when we say "you", "self", etc. He doesn't mean that the original won't act like the real you would. He probably doesn't even mean that they wouldn't have a "soul or whatever", as he's referring to consciousness. He just means that they will be separate consciousnesses, and not the original. Replacing part by part is much preferable to creating a copy and destroying the original.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    53. Re:wow by shawb · · Score: 1

      the problem with replacing bits of the brain is at what point does it cease to be you and just becomes a simulation.

      But bits of the brain are replaced constantly. While the gross cell structure may be retained, the individual molecules and atoms are turned over extremely rapidly. While people throw around numbers like "ten years" it is even more quick than that. Phosphate turns over on approximately the order of a six week half life in the brain. Even the individual atoms in bone, a structure that seems solid and permanent, are replaced.

      Now, the portion of the question "What point does it cease to be you and just become a simulation" actually assumes a large number of philosophical tenets which need to be explored before the question is even asked. The first unspoken tenet I have seen used without questioning in this discussion is essentially that qualia has a real world "essence of being" or similar concept. So the concepts of "you-ness" and "me-ness" while usually useful constructs, are not necessarily reflections of how the world actually is.

      The second assumed tenet builds loosely on the concept of qualia, and assumes that it applies to human consciousness. That is that our consciousness experiences the world as it is. However, optical illusions and other sensory tricks along with the growing body of neuroscience in general provide evidence that the world our conscious mind experiences is actually a simulation. So, if the world that our mind lives in is just a (not fully complete or accurate at that!) simulation of the world our bodies live in, we can not take for granted that consciousness itself is a "real world phenomenon" and not its own simulation. Basically, throw in sensory input, data storage (memories) and language processing, then consciousness appears out of the chaos.

      So, if you can not prove that our consciousness is more than simulation, then the question of when it BECOMES a simulation of you loses cogency. As the Corollary to Heraclitus' famous utterance goes: "No man steps in the same river twice; for the river has changed, and so has he."

      Claiming that consciousness is not just really advanced path finding algorithms is a bit premature if neuroscience does not know the actual mechanism behind which the mind works. Sure, we have a pretty good feel for how individual neurons work and talk to other neurons. We know that there are regions of the brain where the processing of certain inputs and concepts occur. But the makeup of the mind, of consciousness itself... just because we don't know how to recreate (rather than simulate) it proves that we won't be able to just as much as the fact that Leonardo DaVinci never built a working aircraft disproves flying machines in general. And there is mild evidence and I have heard pretty strong arguments that our consciousness may be essentially based on path finding algorithms.

      And to those concerned about the fact that in transferring "you" to a machine will cause a break in their stream of consciousness: are you filled with dread every time you go to sleep? When you wake up, you are not the same person that went to sleep. Chemically, the cells have partially turned over. Your neurotransmitters and hormones are at completely different levels. You have different memories than when you fell asleep, having forgotten some things, remembered others and spun new false memories out of whole cloth in the form of dreams (dreaming itself being a state of quasi-not quite there consciousness that claws at the edge of defining what consciousness is, such as the old yarn: "Did I dream that I was a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a person.") Your emotional state is likely completely different. Your abilities and skills are likely even quantitatively different than when you went to sleep the night before, as well as different than when you woke up the previous morning. Yet you have no problem calling that the same "you." We have no reason to suspect

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    54. Re:wow by TheCycoONE · · Score: 1

      What a wonderful version of the Ship of Theseus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus) I was thinking that through this entire discussion.

    55. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 1

      I was thinking similar things too - Terry Pratchett often injects fun ilttle things like that into his writing, like a broom that has its handle and bristles replaced many times, while remaining the same broom.

      I especially liked this part: "what would happen if the original planks were gathered up after they were replaced, and used to build a second ship?".

      Seeing as a sailing ship doesn't have an on or off state though, it seems fundamentally different to things like brains and computers, so I think the computer analogy works well here.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    56. Re:wow by n+dot+l · · Score: 1

      He doesn't mean that the original won't act like the real you would.

      He was pretty clear about that (allowing for arbitrary accuracy).

      He just means that they will be separate consciousnesses, and not the original.

      What I'm saying is that the idea of "consciousness" is akin to the idea of "four". It's a property of the particular arrangement of the matter in our bodies, an abstract quality that we made up to describe some interesting aspect of that arrangement. If I add two marbles to two or three marbles to one, the "fourness" of the resulting groups is the same. Even if the marbles in the two groups are made of entirely different substances.

      If I build a machine that perfectly simulates the activity in a brain and, at some instant, is configured to perfectly match your internal state, it is at that moment as much "you" as you are "you". Doubtless, that would cease to be true almost immediately (you you and computer you don't occupy the same space, you'll get different inputs, have different experiences and diverge quite rapidly), but for that one instant there is no way for me to walk in and tell which is which if all I can see is the internal state of both minds.

      The only way I can differentiate the two of "you" at that instant is by expanding the idea of "you" to include things "attached" to the consciousness (the body hosting it). But then what if I were to build not a computer but an atom for atom perfect duplicate of you? Then I'd have to tell you apart by your positions in space, or maybe by the history of the individual particles that comprise each copy or something like that. But that's odd, because where you stand and which ocean some molecule of water in your body last evaporated off of clearly isn't who you are, right?

      He said:

      there is no way to transfer the you-ness of you - the real you, the soul or whatever - into the machine.

      And I'm saying it makes as much sense to say that as it does to say "there is no way to transfer the four-ness of the two and two marbles - the real four-ness, the essence of four or whatever - into the three and one marbles". There's nothing to transfer and no intrinsic difference within the relevant domain to allow one to meaningfully pin the label "real" to one object but not the other.

      Replacing part by part is much preferable to creating a copy and destroying the original.

      Only if you see the consciousness as some sort of physical object.

    57. Re:wow by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't that be true of any fatal disease? Let's say that there was only one fatal disease left, so people who do not die due to injury or poison would eventually get that disease and die, so it would be "disease x would kill all humans if the other y% did not die from some other cause first".

    58. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 1

      the idea of "consciousness" is akin to the idea of "four". It's a property of the particular arrangement of the matter in our bodies, an abstract quality that we made up to describe some interesting aspect of that arrangement.

      It's not just matter - it's also energy flow between neurons. A brain that loses that energy dies and can't be reanimated.

      I do see consciousness as something that needs to be perpetuated to work. Energy is physical so I suppose it is physical. If you let that energy die out, the consciousness is gone. If you're using a simulation or a magical copying machine, then you can perhaps create duplicate consciousness, but the original cogent experience that was going on in the first place has gone. That self has died, even if there is a copy of it somwhere. I know the self will act the same as the original, but that is not the point. It's like making a copy of the Mona Lisa in a Star Trek style Replicator. Collectors are still only going to want to pay for the original (though there may not be a way to tell which is the original anymore, if the Replicator is advanced enough).

      --
      which is totally what she said
    59. Re:wow by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      It seems through all that (interesting and insightful though it was) you seemed to miss my point, which is that computers don't think like a human and probably never will. I mean you have a million chess computers that can play at grand master level but not a single one thinks like Bobby Fisher and most wouldn't have ever used some of his unorthodox moves.

      So the problem isn't so much "whether we live in a simulation or not" which if you want to get technical we ALL live in a little bubble created by how our brains interpret our sense, it is the fact that to get a human into the machine you'll have to translate human into machine code, which as I said nuances would be lost.

      A machine might know that I like to walk the streets at night, but would it be able to create the random musings that flow through my head? The sense of wonder I get from the stars, or the random memories that float by based on a familiar sight, smell, sound, or just nothing at all? I highly doubt it.

      So it isn't that I'm saying the human is some sort of wonderous creature that can't be replicated, or that our fuzzy brains can't one day be probably fit with our entire knowledge into a box the size of a toaster, it is that humans and machines are so alien to each other that expecting to be able to translate from one to the other and get anything more than a bad simulacrum of the original would be like you having sex with a dolphin and wondering why you can't have kids because you're both mammals. At the core of it they are binary and we are probably the worst kind of fuzzy analog one could make, and in this case I just don't see anyway to translate one to the other anymore than saying a grand master level chess computer is Bobby Fisher. They play the same game but that is where the story ends.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    60. Re:wow by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is a lot like having children. Or having a twin that knows everything you know. And no, consciousness transfer is not the same as immortality, although it has some similarities.

      Of course, if you die after transferring your consciousness, the original (being dead) will not feel bad about it. If it dies believing that it will wake up in a new body, maybe that's enough.

    61. Re:wow by shawb · · Score: 1

      But I believe that the human brain is a machine. It is composed of tiny discrete units which follow a pretty mechanistic algorithm. The wonder and abilities comes from the immense complexity available in the networks between neurons. I don't really know of any law of nature that would prevent us from modeling the functioning of a neuron. At that point it just becomes a matter of throwing enough hardware at the problem before we could model the functioning of an entire brain. Once the entire brain is modeled, then the mind comes naturally out of the process. While I don't believe that we currently have enough processing power to accurately model an entire brain we are approaching the point where there are about as many transistors in devices connected to the internet as there are neurons in a human brain. If our technology keeps developing in the same direction it is, there is no reason that we would not be able to model an entire human brain. Once we do that, we have modeled the machine in which our consciousness runs and therefore have modeled a mind.

      At first this would be a completely new personality but there is no reason that I know of why we eventually wouldn't be able to model the brain of any chosen individual, therefore running their consciousness on that machine. In fact, I believe that it should eventually get to the point where we can model a human mind using as little energy as as human brain needs to think. There may be several technological paradigm shifts involved before we get to that point, and the whole path will involve countless tiny steps. I also do not state as an article of faith that the ability to model a brain will arise within my lifetime. But I would be willing place a small wager that, sometime in my lifetime, we will be able to replace certain parts of the brain. Whether that is computerized, mechanical, transplant or stimulation of regrowth, I do not know. But it just seems that we are too close on many fronts for this to not happen. Ah, and it is a pretty safe bet partially because I won't miss out on that payment once the term of the bet is up.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    62. Re:wow by Mydnight · · Score: 1

      How about this: You get sedated during the "conciousness" transfer (no experiences). When the transfer is complete, the meatspace body is killed, still unconcious, and the robot body/brain is brought online. How is this different from undergoing any sort of surgery that calls for general anesthesia?

    63. Re:wow by somersault · · Score: 1

      It depends what you mean as "transfer". Most likely you are creating a copy and deleting the original. The original still dies. This will make no difference to an outside observer of course, and the copy would be happy, but the life of the original has ended. If you could truly "transfer" consciousness then that would be fine, but I don't think it's possible.

      --
      which is totally what she said
  2. giants by Velex · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's unlikely to evolve any new defense mechanisms, meaning curing cancer might be not quite as mammoth a task as commonly thought.

    nanos gigantium humeris insidentes

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
    1. Re:giants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We don't have to evolve new defense mechanisms - if we find the ancient gene we can use the chair in Antarctica!

    2. Re:giants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Giants mounted on dwarves' shoulders?

  3. Yeah Right. by Massacrifice · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Astrobiologists doing cancer "research"? Half of the submission is written as if they had cancer already nailed down, while the rest of it implies that they merely had this great idea, while looking at the stars after smoking some of the good stuff. If there are no experiments, hard results, conclusive evidence, well pfew, it's not news that matter. I make up a dozen theories like this per day.

    --
    -- Home is where you eat your heart out.
    1. Re:Yeah Right. by thijsh · · Score: 1

      [...] they merely had this great idea, while looking at Stargate after smoking some of the good stuff.

      FTFY. They were probably discussing 'what if the ancient gene was real', and the rest followed naturally by means of said good stuff and some randomness... Indeed a fairly common conversation type for stoner-geeks. :)

    2. Re:Yeah Right. by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      I believe it would be a step in the right direction if any Astrobiologists, or possibly Geneticists were to work on a gene therapy that would repair the ends of the Chromosomes where gene damage most times occurs. I personally would love to see Cancer, DNA Viruses, and RNA Viruses cured on a 'Out Patient' basics.

    3. Re:Yeah Right. by Bardez · · Score: 1

      Or what-if-the-common-cold-killed-the-Ancients-and-we-all-have-the-survivor's-almost-immunity pre-season 6 or 9 (whenever they really explained what was supposed to have done it)

      --
      Perception is the thin dividing line between reality and fiction.
    4. Re:Yeah Right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nevertheless, it's still an interesting idea. Someone somewhere has to come up with an idea before there can be experiments, hard results and conclusive evidence. At the very least it gave me something to think about on a Friday morning.

    5. Re:Yeah Right. by radtea · · Score: 5, Insightful

      they merely had this great idea, while looking at the stars after smoking some of the good stuff.

      Their entire "theory" boils down to this: "We think that the tumours that develop in cancer patients today take the same form as these simple cellular structures did more than a billion years ago,” he said. ("but we have no particular reason to believe that", he added quietly.)

      There is simply no basis for their claim other than "cars are a means of transportation, planes are a means of transportation, so maybe cars are planes after they've landed". I mean, "cancers are loose aggregations of cells, early metazooans were probably loose aggregations of cells, so maybe cancers are early metazooans resurfacing in your body."

      Everything we know about the detailed genetics of cancer--which is quite a lot--suggests this is nonsense. If this were the case we'd expect to see far more genetic similarity between cancers than we do, as the hypothesis implies ancient conserved mechanisms for which there is no sign in the genomics of cancer. Cancer is a diverse disease, and while we are making steady progress against it there are fundamental mechanisms that are still poorly understood because they are complicated. The role of various micro-RNAs in particular is only now becoming clear, for example.

      The fundamental complexity of the disease is exactly what you would expect if it metazooan life was pulling off a complex and delicate balancing act that can go wrong in multiple ways, and humans had been subject to intense selective pressure for longer lives due to the advantage to a social primate with both representational and operational intelligence of having a few grandparents around in your kin-group. Human cancers are ferociously complex compared to most other species, which is exactly what you would not expect based on this hypothesis that all cancers in all species are pretty much similar at root.

      Their "advice" to researchers to focus on what amount to tumour supressor genes would be important if this was 1990.

      The genius here is all marketing, not science. They have managed to get an idiotic idea that has zero utility to anyone working on the genetics of cancer quite widely disseminated. That's pretty clever. I only wish the scientists who are in the trenches doing detailed experimental investigations of actual cancer mechanisms were half as good at promoting their thankless and difficult work as these clowns are. Their hypothesis would make a great science fiction story. Unfortunately, that's not the way they've chosen to promote it.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    6. Re:Yeah Right. by martas · · Score: 0

      I make up a dozen theories like this per day.

      No, you don't, you arrogant [censored]. This is a very interesting hypothesis, that, if confirmed, could have a big impact on the future of cancer research. You know, not all scientific publications have to contain thorough empirical confirmations of proposed hypotheses -- science would advance much slower if this were the case.

      In summary, what the hell is your point?

    7. Re:Yeah Right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're using words like you know what you are talking about, but trust me, it is not even close to working like that.

    8. Re:Yeah Right. by omega6 · · Score: 1

      Then would it surprise you to learn, that one of the first things cancer does is re-activate telomerase (the enzyme that extends the chromosomes to prevent deletions)?
      Telomeres (the ends of the chromosome) are not extended in most human cells, precisely so that the cell dies after a certain number of replications. Re-activating telomerase will make the cells live infinitely long, and allow them to accumulate a number of mutations, but not die, increasing the risk of cancer.

    9. Re:Yeah Right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Precisely. (Love the cars are planes analogy by the way). If this were true, all mutations that we find that drive cancers would only exist in the most highly conserved (and therefore ancient) genes and that is simply not the case.

    10. Re:Yeah Right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      diverse disease ... are complicated ... fundamental complexity ... complex and delicate balancing act ... ferociously complex

      Epicyles.

      exactly what you would not expect based on this hypothesis that all cancers in all species are pretty much similar at root

      Your perspective, to use a car analogy, is that creating a system that can detect any possible failure mode in the computer controlled braking system and then correct it while driving would be incredibly complicated. Their perspective is, cars still have mechanical emergency brakes right?

    11. Re:Yeah Right. by someSnarkyBastard · · Score: 1

      You know, not all scientific publications have to contain thorough empirical confirmations of proposed hypotheses -- science would advance much slower if this were the case.

      Those publications you refer to are usually classified as science fiction . The whole "thorough empirical confirmations of proposed hypotheses" thing is what most folks call the scientific method.

    12. Re:Yeah Right. by martas · · Score: 1

      You shouldn't talk if you have nothing useful/correct to say. The "scientific method" that so many half-educated people such as yourself think is some kind of absolute, divinely inspired commandment, is in reality merely a guideline. Even if it is adhered to precisely, it doesn't mean that each paper that is published needs to contain the entire cycle of the "scientific method" in it. The cycle can take several papers, or in some cases many years, to complete itself. It is not that rare to see a new idea proposed with very little empirical justification, followed by years of research that try to confirm or deny that idea, possibly with occasional relaxations/limitations/corrections. There is no reason why a single paper must contain a 95% confidence level hypothesis test confirming every hypothesis proposed in it.

      My point is, you have no idea how science works, you don't know the first thing about statistics, your post is nothing but bullshit based on a few popular science shows you've seen or articles you've read, you're so full of yourself that it doesn't even occur to you that your flimsy, misguided notions might be anything but the ideal truth, and the best thing you can do for the good of mankind as a whole is to never say anything again, unless you are asked a specific question, in which case you should answer as concisely as possible, and shut up as soon as you're done.

    13. Re:Yeah Right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Critical Reading Skills?

      It says in both the article body and the paper that they teamed up with oncologists (that would be "cancer doctors").

    14. Re:Yeah Right. by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      This just confirms what I've been thinking, the answers are not easy to solve. I have other problems that are of a more personal significance in priority for solutions. So how I encourage solutions, is by donating as much as I can to those organisations that can champion the causes I believe in. From my orientation, Cancer is an Apex Predator, then RNA Viruses, then DNA Viruses. None of this research existed 50 years ago, and humanity has only begun to scratch the surface, I hope I can live to see the bounty of this research.

  4. Safe mode? by Phoshi · · Score: 1

    I mean, I understand you're trying to reach out to nerds, but since when was safe mode "More ancient programming" rather than just a mode where you only load the absolute minimum required to function?

    1. Re:Safe mode? by ifrag · · Score: 1

      Well, the Safe Mode video driver does feel somewhat ancient at least. 256 colors and screen blitting you can time on a stopwatch.

      Anyway, the analogy is totally ridiculous as is. Safe Mode actually performs a desirable function (when needed) within the system. I don't think the same can be said for cancer.

      --
      Fear is the mind killer.
    2. Re:Safe mode? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So cancer = cellular safe mode?

      Sure explains alot about MS Windows.

    3. Re:Safe mode? by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      The life as a whole it doesn't perform a valuable function, but the individual cells that turn cancerous might have been about to die from some other cause when they revert. And that makes sense, cancer is made more likely by genetic damage, perhaps the cells are becoming cancerous when there is some piece or another of genetic code that is damaged beyond repair so the cell reverts to a simpler set of instructions that perform a similar role. A set which, unfortunately, lacks such handy things as communications channels and programmed cell death.

      Kind of like if Windows can't find a file that it needs to boot normally, so it boots into safe mode so you can fix the problem. Except, this safe mode doesn't have a display driver, keyboard support, or Ethernet support... and it causes the computer to reproduce out of control. So the analogy isn't perfect, but no one ever said analogies had to be.

    4. Re:Safe mode? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When computers began, there wasn't a "safe mode" because by default, the computer would only load up the absolute minimum required to function. Anything more than that, and you had to explicitly start it yourself. As computers evolved, more things were done automatically, and the need for a "Safe Mode" developed. They seem to be, IMHO, trying to describe a similar evolution in the human body. This makes perfect sense when you stop getting your panties in a bunch over the 'words' they used, and actually think about the concepts logically.

    5. Re:Safe mode? by itsenrique · · Score: 1

      I think the article meant safe mode for the cell / tissue type, though not the human body as a whole. Not that it seems to have any hard evidence to back its claims.

    6. Re:Safe mode? by bonch · · Score: 1

      Calling it Safe Mode feels more like reaching out to non-nerds, because it makes no sense in the analogy the submitter was trying to make. People should leave the pseudo-scientific explanations to sites like Huffington Post.

  5. For the love of god, give it a rest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    booting in Safe Mode.

    Is it possible for you people to wipe your butts without using some half-assed, fallacious computer analogy? Is this all the bazaar has done for you?

    1. Re:For the love of god, give it a rest by khallow · · Score: 2

      Of course not. Maintenance of garbage collection capability is a key part of the daily control loop for any sentient humanoid program.

    2. Re:For the love of god, give it a rest by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Sorta' like how there's a limp home mode built in to new cars?

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
  6. not so easy by La+Gris · · Score: 2

    The summary look like curing cancer is a matter of very simple solution. I doubt this.

    Even if cancer behavior rely on primitive gene programming. There where billion years of incremental evolution build and re-factored over that, I firmly doubt it is a matter of turning on/off or stripping out some cytochrome block cancerous cells from forming/growing.

    --
    Léa Gris
    1. Re:not so easy by olsmeister · · Score: 1

      Of course. Didn't you see Piranha 3D? Modern life is no match for the prehistoric piranhas once they are released by an earthquake.

    2. Re:not so easy by Ponder+Stibions · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is exactly the problem: our genes are like Windows, they just keep adding stuff and patching up the old code, and never start fresh. You never know what you'll break by patching the latest issue...

    3. Re:not so easy by Kilrah_il · · Score: 1

      The summary look like curing cancer is a matter of very simple solution. I doubt this.

      A small story:
      The king summoned all of his scientists and told them he had a great idea how to beat the kingdom's sea-ferring enemies. "I suggest," he said "that when our enemies come with their ships, we lower the sea level by a few meters. This way all their ships will crush on the sea floor. When we raise the sea level again, all of their soldiers will drawn and we will win."
      All the scientists said it was a great idea, but how the hell do you lower the sea level by a few meters?
      "I don't know," replied the king "I think of the ideas, it is your job to make them work".

      --
      Whenever in an argument, remember this.
    4. Re:not so easy by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Don't worry. We can cure cancer by injecting you with this Gene Patch. Wait... why are you turning blue?

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    5. Re:not so easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is exactly the problem: our genes are like Windows, they just keep adding stuff and patching up the old code, and never start fresh. You never know what you'll break by patching the latest issue...

      So it's safe to say the "old" genes had an infinite loop, and the "new" genes were patches to close these loops.

      God initially programmed us to live forever, but found the open loop concept actually caused our bodies to die faster. It wasn't properly tested, because God's boss wanted it done in 7 days. Knowing he would fail to deliver a properly working product, and not subscribing to the ship early, ship often model, God decided to make the bodies solid, well functioning, but reduce the lifespan/performance.

    6. Re:not so easy by pokyo · · Score: 1

      Thanks for comparing my body with MS Windows. I will never feel at ease again.

    7. Re:not so easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like Windows, you say? Because Linux was started over from scratch only 2 years ago, right?

    8. Re:not so easy by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      Lowering the seal level as a cure all? Impossible! what were they thinking. Now if he said "lower the taxes" then he would be talking. At present in America almost every one agrees, the panacea for whatever ails America is to lower the taxes.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    9. Re:not so easy by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Besides, this hypothesis requires that you believe in evolution. As a firm believer that cancer was created by God on the 6th day, I can't accept that it will lead anywhere but to hell.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    10. Re:not so easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. As someone with a PhD in the biological sciences, as someone who is currently fighting cancer myself, and as someone who studied at the university where Paul Davies works, I can say that he is grossly oversimplifying things with this theory. It should be noted that ASU recently got a grant from the National Cancer Institute that brings engineers and physicists into the fight against cancer since, as Paul Davies puts it, the medical community cannot solve the problem. This paper is likely him trying to show that they are making progress.

    11. Re:not so easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone know code rust away and must be replaced by new (less tested) code or systems will fail. Buy hey, YOU know what you're doing so much more than the last 100 people that edited the code before you.

    12. Re:not so easy by orkysoft · · Score: 2

      Linux was Intelligently Designed.

      --

      I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
    13. Re:not so easy by 517714 · · Score: 1

      And if Darwin is to believed, the code is being entered with monkeys at the keyboards.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
  7. DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by ninejaguar · · Score: 1, Informative

    Dichloroacetate (DCA) is a cheap, un-patentable, drug (essentially 1vinegar molecule+2chlorine atoms) currently used to treat a rare enzyme disorder in children, but researchers have found it useful in allowing cancer cells to learn how to kill themselves with reasonably acceptable temporary side effects. See "DCA and How It Works" below.

    There is almost no funding for this drug study due to it being un-patentable despite quite encouraging results, and reasonably acceptable and reversible side-effects.

    Recent human trial reported here:
    http://www.medindia.net/news/Dichloroacetate-Effective-Against-Aggressive-Brain-Cancer-68867-1.htm

    Initial news from a couple of years ago...

    http://www.dca.med.ualberta.ca/Home/index.cfm
    http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg19325874.700-cheap-safe-drug-kills-most-cancers.html?DCMP=ILC-Top5&nsref=mg19325874.700

    Here's an excerpt...
    "DCA and How It Works
    Dichloroacetic acid versus Sodium Dichloroacetate

    Dichloroacetic acid is a small molecule, basically acetic acid with 2 chlorines. The molecular formula is Cl2CHCOOH.

    Dichloroacetate is the sodium salt of dichloroacetic acid. Replace a hydrogen with sodium and you get Cl2CHCOONa

    If you view the video from CTV you will see a jar of dichloroacetic acid prominently displayed. http://www.depmed.ualberta.ca/dca/vid1.htm is well worth watching. But they used a “cheap ...powder”. Dichloroacetic acid only comes in liquid. The powder is the sodium salt of dichloroacetic acid. It is sodium dichloroacetate. The researchers did not use the acid.

    For those of you searching for DCA, do not buy the acid. I posted info on the FAQ about it. The acid is not the same thing as the acetate. The acid is dangerously corrosive.

    How does DCA work, briefly?

    The Michelakis team reports that DCA turns on the mitochondria of cancer cells, allowing them to commit cellular suicide, or apoptosis.

    Cancer cells shut down the mitochondria, which is the part of the cell that is involved in metabolism and, incidentally, initiates the cell suicide.

    A non-cancerous cell will initiate apoptosis when it detects damage within itself that it cannot repair. But a cancer cell resists the suicide process. That is why chemotherapy and radiation treatments do not work very well and actually result in terrible side effects the healthy cells actually die much easier.

    Michelakis and his team discovered that they could re-activate the mitochondria of cancer cells. Not only that, the DCA is very effective in doing it: To quote from the Michelakis paper: “The decrease in [Ca2+]i occurs within 5 min and is sustained after 48 hr of DCA exposure.” The mitochondria are so sensitive to DCA that just 5 minutes of exposure reactivates them for 48 hours.

    The metabolic approach to cancer is supported by other research. Inhibition of Glycolysis in Cancer Cells: A Novel Strategy to Overcome Drug Resistance Associated with Mitochondrial Respiratory Defect and Hypoxia is a paper by a John Hopkins research team supporting this approach.

    http://www.thedcasite.com/dcaforum/DCForumID1/79.html is a post on our chat room by Willis. giving a prediction as to which cancers DCA might not control, and it is being supported by the reports we are receiving."

    More on the left side of this web page:
    http://www.thedcasite.com/dca_how_it_works.html

    = 9J =

    1. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by Sockatume · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That web scam's putative mechanism for DCA activity is that cancer cells have completely inactive mitochondria? Are you fucking kidding me? Do you even know what a mitochondrion does?

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    2. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by ArcherB · · Score: 2

      There is almost no funding for this drug study due to it being un-patentable despite quite encouraging results, and reasonably acceptable and reversible side-effects.

      Universities do all kinds of unpatentable research. Whereas a company looks to patent a product to make money, universities look to release research in order to earn prestige, which means more money.

      (As a side note, companies can make quite a profit off of prestige as well. Prestige buys a company trust of a brand name. Brand name recognition goes a long way towards profit for a company)

      So, in conclusion, your theory is full of shit.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    3. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      Seriously. I was reading that and thinking, dude, if cancer cells had no metabolism they would die without apoptosis.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    4. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 4, Informative

      Also chemo and radiation work extremely well for certain types of cancer, and work *precisely* because they affect cancerous cells far more readily then ordinary body cells (specifically: they induce damage in cells engaged in replication in the process of duplicating their DNA - cancer is doing this all the time, whereas most of your body is not replicating at any given time. It's why your hair falls out - the cells are engaged in aggressive replication constantly, and so are most affected).

    5. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by toastar · · Score: 1

      Do you even know what a mitochondrion does?

      They give you force powers, Duh!

    6. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by LastGunslinger · · Score: 1

      Dumping a wall of text beginning with claims of a drug company conspiracy is a good way to have your comment as the ravings of a nutter. However, my friend has brain cancer (glioblastoma) and I decided I'd at least dig a little deeper. It seems that DCA may be promising, although you probably should have included links to more objective websites. The study appears to be legitimate research, but a human trial of only five patients is hardly conclusive. I'm going to pass this information on and hope it isn't all nonsense.

    7. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by Joey+Vegetables · · Score: 1

      DCA turns on the mitochondria of cancer cells

      Porn for mitochondria. Who would have guessed??

    8. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by ninejaguar · · Score: 2

      The DCA Site website was put up by laymen to pool together scarce information due to the lack of knowledge available at the time what research was available from corporate or academic sources.

      You'll find similar inaccuracies in exact terminology or phrasing in the laymen comments on The DCA Site as you can find in laymen comments in Slashdot. I doubt that the intent was to convey that the mitochondria was completely disabled, only that an important function of the mitochondria, the ability to signal time for cell death, was disabled in cancer cells. Also, the poster was not conveying an opinion, he is citing a paper so that you can look into it further.

      http://www.cell.com/cancer-cell/abstract/S1535-6108(06)00372-2

      Here's an excerpt from WIki:

      "Cancer cells generally use glycolysis rather than respiration (oxidative phosphorylation) for energy (the Warburg effect), as a result of hypoxia that exists in tumors and damaged mitochondria.[13] Usually dangerously damaged cells kill themselves via apoptosis, a mechanism of self-destruction that involves mitochondria, but this mechanism fails in cancer cells.

      A phase one study published in January 2007 by researchers at the University of Alberta, who had tested DCA on cancer cells grown in mice, found that DCA restored mitochondrial function, thus restoring apoptosis, killing cancer cells and shrinking the tumors.[14]"

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichloroacetic_acid

      = 9J =

    9. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by ninejaguar · · Score: 1

      Patents Over Patients
      http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/01/opinion/01moss.html?_r=1

      Patents Over Patients
      By RALPH W. MOSS

      State College, Pa.

      WE could make faster progress against cancer by changing the way drugs are developed. In the current system, if a promising compound can’t be patented, it is highly unlikely ever to make it to market — no matter how well it performs in the laboratory. The development of new cancer drugs is crippled as a result.

      The reason for this problem is that bringing a new drug to market is extremely expensive. In 2001, the estimated cost was $802 million; today it is approximately $1 billion. To ensure a healthy return on such staggering investments, drug companies seek to formulate new drugs in a way that guarantees watertight patents. In the meantime, cancer patients miss out on treatments that may be highly effective and less expensive to boot.

      In 2004, Johns Hopkins researchers discovered that an off-the-shelf compound called 3-bromopyruvate could arrest the growth of liver cancer in rats. The results were dramatic; moreover, the investigators estimated that the cost to treat patients would be around 70 cents per day. Yet, three years later, no major drug company has shown interest in developing this drug for human use.

      Early this year, another readily available industrial chemical, dichloroacetate, was found by researchers at the University of Alberta to shrink tumors in laboratory animals by up to 75 percent. However, as a university news release explained, dichloroacetate is not patentable, and the lead researcher is concerned that it may be difficult to find funding from private investors to test the chemical. So the university is soliciting public donations to finance a clinical trial.

      The hormone melatonin, sold as an inexpensive food supplement in the United States, has repeatedly been shown to slow the growth of various cancers when used in conjunction with conventional treatments. Paolo Lissoni, an Italian oncologist, helped write more than 100 articles about this hormone and conducted numerous clinical trials. But when I visited him at his hospital in Monza in 2003, he was in deep despair over the pharmaceutical industry’s total lack of interest in his treatment approach. He has published nothing on the topic since then.

      Potential anticancer drugs should be judged on their scientific merit, not on their patentability. One solution might be for the government to enlarge the Food and Drug Administration’s “orphan drug” program, which subsidizes the development of drugs for rare diseases. The definition of orphan drug could be expanded to include unpatentable agents that are scorned as unprofitable by pharmaceutical companies.

      We need to foster a research and development environment in which anticancer activity is the main criterion for new drug development.

      Ralph W. Moss writes a weekly online newsletter about cancer.

      More references here...
      http://www.thedcasite.com/Unpatentable_drugs_and_the_FDA.html

      = 9J =

    10. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by ninejaguar · · Score: 1

      I don't mind negative comments, it's part of the layman peer-review process. If the information is worthwhile on Slashdot, it'll usually pick up a mix of knee-jerk negative reactions, knee-jerk positive reactions, a few funny comments (which I enjoy the most), and some thoughtful opinions after some reflection (that we can then learn from).

      "It seems that DCA may be promising, although you probably should have included links to more objective websites. The study appears to be legitimate research, but a human trial of only five patients is hardly conclusive. I'm going to pass this information on and hope it isn't all nonsense."

      That was the purpose of the post, to give an additional option most haven't heard of yet appears incredibly promising. I wish your friend the best of luck.

      If you want more information about the trial, here it is...

      http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1865024/dca_research_on_brain_cancer/
      http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100512/full/news.2010.236.html?s=news_rss

      It looks like UCLA is now paying attention and starting their own trial for using DCA on recurring breast cancer (breast cancer that was once treated, but has returned).

      http://clinicaltrialsfeeds.org/clinical-trials/show/NCT01029925

      = 9J =

    11. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.dca.med.ualberta.ca/Home/index.cfm
      http://www.dca.med.ualberta.ca/Home/Updates/2007-03-15_Update.cfm

      Do you claim that the University of Alberta, Canada is a web scam too?

      The guy posted all the names you needed to Google this, but no, you just thought you'd be a dick.

    12. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by Hythlodaeus · · Score: 1

      Aerobic respiration, which most microorganisms and tumor cells don't do.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_effect

      --
      For great justice.
    13. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by radtea · · Score: 1

      That web scam's putative mechanism for DCA activity is that cancer cells have completely inactive mitochondria?

      While this guy is clearly a nut, there are some cancers whose preferred metabolic pathway (aerobic glycolysis) is interfered with by DCA. This is a case where you need to not (completely) dismiss an idea because its promoters contain a large number of ignorant nutcases.

      If I were a conspiracy theorist I'd suggest that the large number of nuts promoting DCA is a stealth campaign by Big Pharma to discredit the drug, but I've worked closely enough with Big Pharma to be fairly sure that is well outside their relatively narrow range of competencies.

      I did a bunch of research on DCA last year, as one of my cats had an inoperable (metastatic) mammary cancer, and for fun (for a certain value of "fun") I figured I may as well test DCA, since the side effects are small (a few reports of peripheral neuralgia after more than six weeks of treatment at relatively high doses). So the worst case would be the cat would die anyway, and the best case might be an extended life or improved quality of life, and in either case it would give me the feeling that I was doing something rather than simply waiting for her to die.

      There was a notable placebo effect--at least I presume that's what it was--as she was perkier and more comfortable in the weeks after I started the treatment, but the primary tumor mass did not decrease and she did not survive very long. Placebo effects of this kind have been reported in animals in the past, although the mechanism of action is entirely unclear, as it is in humans in those cases when neither the patient nor the physician are aware that a placebo is being given.

      In any case, as near as I can tell the basic science behind DCA is sound and it is likely to have a positive effect on a significant fraction of cancers, and that has been backed up by some clinical research. But it isn't a miracle cure and isn't being supressed by Big Pharma, although anyone in the industry (who is honest) will tell you that IP issues, particularly IP fragmentation, are significant impediments to the development of new treatments. The IP ownership of important biological pathways tends to be spread across multiple companies, requiring co-operation to develop treatments that target the full pathway, and such co-operation is simply difficult between competing organizations, though by no means impossible.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    14. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      How about posting an article from someone who ISN'T already drinking the DCA coolaid?

    15. Re:DCA - Dichloroacetate (NOT Dichloroacetic acid) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you even know what a mitochondrion does?

      Yes. It gives young jedi's the Force.

  8. Crappy summary as usual. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

    "It's unlikely to evolve any new defense mechanisms, meaning curing cancer might be not quite as mammoth a task as commonly thought."
    Gee since I just lost my mother to cancer last month and have lost way to many friends to it I have to say that this is the STUPIDEST, MOST ARROGANT statement I have read in a very long time.
    How long have we been trying to cure and prevent cancer? We have made a lot of progress to be sure but the task and effort passed mammoth decades ago.
    I welcome any news about improved treatment but really people let's not make light of the subject or the effort.
    It reminds me of every clueless idiot that takes a look at a task that they can not do and say, "How hard can it be?"
    And to those that are making jokes and or political comments about this. Well I hope you don't ever have to understand the things that I have learned about cancer over the last few years.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    1. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems like a reasonable statement to me, if you assume that the premise is true, although I might have instead phrased it, "...meaning we might be closer to a cure for cancer than we previously thought."

    2. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by Sockatume · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The arrogance is not present in the original source: they present their hypothesis, outline how it can be tested, and explain its potential impact on cancer research. The hyperbole and hubris comes from the author of the summary and the article, not the scientists. They only write of "new reasons for optimism".

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    3. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by dr2chase · · Score: 1

      And given all the other crazy interlocking defenses our bodies have evolved over the years, if it were "simple", random chance should have stumbled across it over time, and THAT would spread through the population because it confers a survival advantage for your family/tribe. If there is a silver bullet, it will be something so wacky or foreign that it is truly improbable, even given the long history of evolution and genetic roulette.

    4. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      I am sure you are correct. That is why the title of my post was crappy summary as usual. Anyone educated and smart enough to be involved in this kind of work would probably be wise enough to make make such a stupid statement in writing.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    5. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      The first step in curing Cancer, is cure ignorance. Easier said than done, but it's a start. I lost my mother to this truly evil form of death in 1994.

    6. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by AdrianKemp · · Score: 1

      Hang on, you're talking like you're the only one in the world that truly gets losing loved ones to cancer and *they're* the arrogant ones?

      There is nothing wrong with the statement you've quoted there. As we learn more about cancer curing it will become less daunting. Sending people into space, beaming pictures across the globe near-instantly, portable and wireless communications all seemed just as daunting tasks as curing cancer does at one point.

      Almost everyone above the age of 30 knows someone that had/has/died from cancer. You have my sympathy for your losses, but the article/summary are not the ones with the problem here.

    7. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps it works better in an analogy.

      You, in addition to millions of people, are attempting to climb the steepest mountain you've ever seen. You have no explanation for it's presence. Different members of the millions of people come up with fantastic ideas for new equipment, climbing techniques, and even partner up with others to find a way to the top of this mountain. Some people give up early on, some people get past an extremely difficult part only to fall off later, some people make it to the top by sheer virtue of good fortune. All of a sudden, someone sees around the other side what might be an elevator that goes to the top. With that, the task gets simplified and as many people as there were who fell off the mountain, with the presence of a long-ignored elevator, the task becomes, well, less mammoth.

      You speak as a victim, on some level, of cancer. A fairly good reason to be sensitive about the subject. But as near as I can tell, you weren't attempting to divine a cure for it. And if this hypothesis(however unlikely) turns out to be true, the fact is that things will be simplified, cancer research will advance tremendously as a result, and the task will have become a much easier proposition. Just like every other major advancement in science and culture. Hell, the flu used to kill millions(still kind of does). Treating it now is a fairly simple proposition. Saying so doesn't belittle the loss inflicted by it. It's just not that big a deal now.

    8. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      if it were "simple", random chance should have stumbled across it over time, and THAT would spread through the population because it confers a survival advantage for your family/tribe

      Not really. Cancer rarely occurs early in life. For most of human history, you would have died well before cancer had a chance to finish you off. Even now it mostly occurs late enough in life that it doesn't affect reproduction. Ergo, the evolutionary advantage would be weak-to-non-existent, meaning the mutations might have no better odds of spreading than what would be expected from pure chance.

    9. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by dr2chase · · Score: 1

      That's why I said family/tribe. We live "too long" as is; I'm assuming that there's some advantage to having your grandparents kicking around.

    10. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      They only write of "new reasons for optimism".

      Uh, no. They gave no experimental evidence. They propose a new, untestable theory, and say it gives "new reasons for optimism". I could say that tumors are made of blue ice cream and that gives "new reason for optimism". And, at least, my theory is falsifiable.

      These "researchers" have nothing that would give "new reason for optimism". Do they propose new treatments? New approaches to destroy cells? No. They are arrogant. And, it has nothing to do with the summary.

      --
      That is all.
    11. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      No the article is fine that is why I limited my wrath to the summary. You pointed out a list of things all of which where mammoth tasks to accomplish.
      My annoyance which I am sure is increased by my sensitivity to the subject is to idiot simplification of that task that the person that wrote the summary added. The actual article had none of that. I am willing to bet that no cancer researcher feels that the task still ahead of them is anything but massive.
      Way to many ignorant people feel the need to minimize a task of which they know nothing about and do not work on themselves. It doesn't really matter if it is some boss that asks "How hard can it be to write a new contact management system" or this person.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    12. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      That's why I said family/tribe. We live "too long" as is; I'm assuming that there's some advantage to having your grandparents kicking around.

      In more primitive societies (ie. small tribes) there certainly would be. However, in such societies your grandfather might be only 30 years older than you, and dead from a rock to the head or a tooth infection before he hits 50. And, really, most tribal societies had "elders" rather than "grandparent" - if your particular grandparent died it wouldn't matter much since the "elders" served as advisors and teachers for the entire tribe. Too many elders might have been just as bad as too few; you run into the problem of diminishing returns, where you have to invest more and more effort into feeding and caring for them, while getting less and less of a return with each new individual. So I really don't think cancer would have been a huge issue.

      An advantage in modern society, though? I'm not so sure. I don't want to come across as callous, but, if anything, a dead grandfather might be more of an advantage because he left you that really cool car in which you impregnated half the cheerleading squad. I appreciate my grandparents, and love having them around, but I don't see any great survival/breeding advantage to having surviving elders in modern society.

    13. Re:Crappy summary as usual. by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      I was referring to the article's tone with regard to their hypothesis' relevance to cancer treatment.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  9. Let the cancer biologists do the cancer biology... by toppavak · · Score: 5, Informative

    The good news is this means cancers have only finite variation. Once we figure out the ancient genes, we'll know how it works. It's unlikely to evolve any new defense mechanisms, meaning curing cancer might be not quite as mammoth a task as commonly thought.

    We've already figured out how most cancer works. At a gross, generalized level you have oncogenes (genes responsible for driving growth) and tumor suppressor genes (genes responsible for regulating growth) when interrelated genes of both varieties break in a cell, it becomes a cancer. A detailed molecular understanding of how some cancers work have led to effective treatments (see: Imatinib, Tamoxifen and Raloxifene) but that's hardly been successfully translated to other cancers where the broken parts aren't as easily modulated. In fact, Raloxifene was developed specifically because Tamoxifen which inhibits an oncogene in breast tissue activated the same oncogene in uterine tissue. What 10 years of the human genome have taught us is that not all diseases are direct or simple breaks in genetic code and that not all diseases with known, simple breaks in the genetic code are as easily treatable as we might like.

  10. Natural Selection and Cancer. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Cancer might resemble the kind of cells that eventually made the transition of prokaryotes to eukaryotes. But it is simplistic to say it is governed by just a few genes, so we should be able to handle it. Think about it, if these genes have escaped natural selection for 1 billion years, how hard it is going to be to fight them.

    Basically natural selection will be able to filter out any gene that affects the reproductive ability. Given the length of time, even extraordinarily minute differences will make a difference and eventually deleterious genes will be filtered out. But if some gene trades improved fitness at the reproductive stage for some serious cost to life at a later stage, that gene will never be filtered out. The extreme example is the trout that had traded it so much that it dies immediately after spawning. Its entire metabolism is structured to improve fitness before spawning to very serious inability to live after spawning.

    Even if these guys were right, and with modern science you are able to find that one gene whose loss of function causes cancer, and they are able to fix it, all it means is you will not die of cancer, but will die of other geriatric diseases. Some of them are painful, some of them are embarrassing. But the most heart wrenching ones are those that trap a dead brain in a functioning body or a functioning brain in a dying body.

    I wish science would concentrate on improving the quality of life when alive and allow both the body and the brain to die together painlessly.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Natural Selection and Cancer. by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      Cancer might resemble the kind of cells that eventually made the transition of prokaryotes to eukaryotes. But it is simplistic to say it is governed by just a few genes, so we should be able to handle it. Think about it, if these genes have escaped natural selection for 1 billion years, how hard it is going to be to fight them.

      You're committing the common fallacy of assuming evolution == improvement. There is very little selective pressure against cancer causing genes past our historical peak fertility period (teens to late twenties). There's very little selective pressure against cancers which strike in mid-late life.

      But this doesn't mean treating cancer because it's caused by this type of genetic defect need be difficult, or that they are somehow "resistant" to deliberate intervention. All it means, is we're talking about useful genetic functions that don't kill us most of the time.

    2. Re:Natural Selection and Cancer. by toppavak · · Score: 1

      Cancer might resemble the kind of cells that eventually made the transition of prokaryotes to eukaryotes.

      A cancer cell is a cell that has no regulated growth control, in that fashion it resembles all single-celled life- prokaryote or eukaryote, but that's where the resemblance ends. Cancer is not some exotic type of cell, it's quite simply a cell which lost or broke one or more communication pathways that allow the cell itself or other cells in a multicellular organism to direct its growth and differentiation. No theory surrounding the evolution of eukaryotic cells has anything to do with the reason cancer cells are cancerous.

    3. Re:Natural Selection and Cancer. by mariox19 · · Score: 1

      Biology certainly isn't my specialty, but if I understood The Selfish Gene correctly, there are any number of genes that have escaped natural selection, so to speak. In the human genome, just to take an example, I'm pretty sure a good portion of our genes, if not the majority, contribute nothing and are basically free riders that happened to be in the right company: meaning, other genes that do contribute to our survival. I would think that these ancient genes, the ones hypothesized as governing cancer-like behavior in cells, can be counted among these free riders.

      My point is that there's no reason to think they're especially tough. They've been doing nothing for their own survival, other than having the right "friends." If the hypothesis is correct, we just need to figure out what's been keeping them in line and replicate that.

      --

      quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.

    4. Re:Natural Selection and Cancer. by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      The problem with that assumption is that cancer is a condition that almost always affects organisms after their primary reproductive cycles have been completed. There are a few cancers that affect children and young adults but they are extremely rare.

    5. Re:Natural Selection and Cancer. by kemapa · · Score: 1

      Cancer might resemble the kind of cells that eventually made the transition of prokaryotes to eukaryotes. But it is simplistic to say it is governed by just a few genes, so we should be able to handle it. Think about it, if these genes have escaped natural selection for 1 billion years, how hard it is going to be to fight them.

      Up until very recently the vast majority of humans did not live long enough to see the onset of cancer, so natural selection didn't have a chance to play the part you're suggesting that it should/would have. Furthermore, most cancers occur later in life than when most humans reproduce (this was especially so prior to modern times). This prevents cancer from having the usual fitness detriment in relation to reproduction, providing an alternative explanation for why it hasn't been selected out.

    6. Re:Natural Selection and Cancer. by radtea · · Score: 1

      This prevents cancer from having the usual fitness detriment in relation to reproduction, providing an alternative explanation for why it hasn't been selected out.

      It actually has been selected out to a great degree in humans, and this is one of the reasons why we live such astonishingly long lives. The average mammal lives about a billion of its own heartbeats. We live more than twice that.

      This is also what makes human cancers so hard to cure. Unlike rats, which will get cancer from a dirty look, the cancers that make it past our defenses are seriously nasty.

      Grandparents transmit culture, and having a few much older people in your kin group would be very significant reproductive advantage to individuals who are social primates with both operational and representational intelligence. As such, there is a very plausible selective mechanism for our long lives, and relatively large cancer-resistance.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    7. Re:Natural Selection and Cancer. by NoSig · · Score: 1

      Old people die of X if they don't die of Y. The solution to that is to repair the underlying damage caused by aging so old people don't get frail in the first place. The solution is not just to accept aging as a good thing. If you didn't have to get old and frail, would you take a pill that inflicted you with the disease of aging? Yet younger people still get cancer, so we need a cure regardless.

    8. Re:Natural Selection and Cancer. by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      The article gives some reasons to consider that this might not be so. The point is that tumours are not simply a mass of identical cells -- they develop some structure and some organised ways of attacking their surroundings, getting nutrients and so on. This structure is not the same as the structure of normal tissue, so EITHER it evolves from nothing as the tumour develops, OR it is somehow latent in normal tissue. This paper suggests the second option, and furthermore that the latent genes (and mechanisms more complex than single genes) date back to the earliest multi-cellular lifeforms. It's certainly an interesting idea.

    9. Re:Natural Selection and Cancer. by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Even if these guys were right, and with modern science you are able to find that one gene whose loss of function causes cancer, and they are able to fix it, all it means is you will not die of cancer, but will die of other geriatric diseases.

      Well, maybe we can take them one at a time. Cure cancer then move on to whatever other disease now kills a lot of people and so on. You might die from getting hit by a bus, but that does not mean that eliminating diseases is pointless.

      allow both the body and the brain to die together painlessly.

      Bullet to the brain? Poison? Though nobody would ever know if a death if painful or not, since the dead person cannot tell you.

  11. Cancers need to grow blood vessels too by AC-x · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's a nice theory, but cancers aren't completely self sufficient. They need to form blood vessels to grow any larger than a pin head and early sponge-like organisms certainly didn't have those.

    http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/about-cancer/what-is-cancer/grow/how-a-cancer-gets-its-blood-supply

    1. Re:Cancers need to grow blood vessels too by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      This needs to be moderated up more.

      But:

      Agrobacterium tumafacians and 2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid cause the plant to grow abnormally to death
      Agrobacterium tumefaciens is an good example of a bacterium that induces tumors (http://biology.kenyon.edu/Microbial_Biorealm/bacteria/proteobacteria/agrobacterium/Agrobacterium.htm) or cancerous growth in plants. The mechanism of induction is the transfer of bacterial genes to plant cells via tumor inducing plasmid. Be careful working with them, they can even infect human cells (reference) (http://www.i-sis.org.uk/Agrobacterium.php)

      The second example is a stretch of the term cancer. 2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic_acid) is a synthetic herbicide. It mimics the activity of the plant hormone auxin (Indole Acetic Acid) causing the excessive cellular growth. If you inject yourself with an excess of substance that mimics our own hormones (e.g. somatotropin-like substance), would the excessive growth be called cancer?

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    2. Re:Cancers need to grow blood vessels too by spads · · Score: 1

      Excellent point. Perhaps the cancer "boot configuration" could be a hybrid of the two? Perhaps we get the "pin head" (mono-cultures) all over the place, but just don't know it. Occasionally, the hybrid thing happens. In that case, turning off the Safe Mode configuration would still stop the cancer.

      --
      Bukowski said it. I believe it. That settles it.
    3. Re:Cancers need to grow blood vessels too by NoSig · · Score: 1

      Early sponge-like organisms depended on their environment for energy. In the human body blood is where the energy is at.

    4. Re:Cancers need to grow blood vessels too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They need to form blood vessels *in the human body* -- sponges and similar animals have circulation available for free from the movement of the water through their semi-porous structure. A tumor which compassed your aorta could have a similar sort of structure.

  12. safe mode? by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Funny

    given that this article postulates that cancer cells have apparently been the default mode of cellular division for perhaps billions of years, and personal computers have only been around for 30 years, it would be more appropriate to say you sometimes need to boot your computer into cancer mode. that's a more appropriate analogy

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  13. Re:Socio-political summary.. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1, Insightful

    You are a mindless jerk.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  14. Then we shouldn't kill it by jbarr · · Score: 1, Troll

    If cancer is what life was like a billion years ago, then we should not be spending so much time, money, and effort to kill it. By pandering to our self-centered focus of survival and self-preservation, we could be preventing the next race of beings from evolving natually.

    --
    My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
    1. Re:Then we shouldn't kill it by MoldySpore · · Score: 1

      (sarcasm) Blasphemy!!!!! Science once again comes up with another thing to test your faith! Cancer can't POSSIBLY be 1 Billion Years Old! The world is only a few thousand years old! (/sarcasm)

      --

      "I hope you know how very lucky you are to know me, because I am so incredibly incredible."

    2. Re:Then we shouldn't kill it by jouassou · · Score: 2

      Yes, we might. After all, cancer has already evolved into species of it's own...

    3. Re:Then we shouldn't kill it by kelemvor4 · · Score: 1

      When you're the one (or perhaps your parent or child) dying painfully from cancer, you won't be saying that. Nice troll, though.

    4. Re:Then we shouldn't kill it by jbarr · · Score: 1

      It's called sarcasm. Some people just don't get sarcasm.

      --
      My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
    5. Re:Then we shouldn't kill it by 517714 · · Score: 1

      Species, not race. Race is an artificial and counterproductive distinction within our species based primarily on skin color and hair texture.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
  15. Definition of Life and Cancer by gov_coder · · Score: 5, Funny

    Life: the decision of approximately 4 billion cells to be 'you' for a while.

    Cancer: When some of the 4 billion cells decide to form a 'tea party'.

    --
    Rob Enderle's excellent new book: Everything I needed to know about Computer Science I learned in Marketing School
    1. Re:Definition of Life and Cancer by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Life: the decision of approximately 4 billion cells to be 'you' for a while.

      Cancer: When some of the 4 billion cells decide to form a 'tea party'.

      Depressed Living Teddy Bear: "Why am I here?"
      Little girl: "For tea parties!"
      Bear, desperate: "Is that all there is?"
      -Supernatural

    2. Re:Definition of Life and Cancer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surprise, surprise, a government employee who is scared of smaller government. You are the cancer, you thieving POS.

    3. Re:Definition of Life and Cancer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for that!

  16. And again, remember that episode of TNG? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This explains that episode of Star Trek, Genesis. Right?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_%28Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation%29

    Right?

    EVERYTHING IN STAR TREK IS COMING TRUE!

  17. Re:We have to want to cure cancer first by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    Cancer keeps happening, if patients keep getting it, like the common cold, then Pharmacies will always have a supply of customers. For example, a Superbowl commercial could look like, "Oh, something for your Cancer? Isle 3, next to the Advil, fourth shelf down. Hand have a nice day."

  18. Re:Let the cancer biologists do the cancer biology by wombatmobile · · Score: 1
    FTA:

    What one cancer learns cannot be passed on to the next generation of cancers in other patients

    Of course not. That would be Lamarkism, like believing that if we cut off the cats tail, its future kittens will have no tail. That queery aside, what evidence is there for this conclusion about the complexity of combat?:

    The good news is that this means combating cancer is not necessarily as complex as if the cancers were rogue cells evolving new and novel defence mechanisms within the body.

    Even if their hypothesis is correct, that cancer involves the malfunctioning of a set of evolutionarily conserved genomic structures and processes, what evidence is there for concluding that combating cancer is not as going to be as complex as [something else we don't understand fully yet either]?

    Who's to say that the unknown processes that cause genome modifications which sometimes result in cancer are not still evolving?

  19. Can we define cancer? by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

    Cancer covers quite a bit of biological territory and not all cancers are created equal. This seams to trivialize just how diverse our bodies are and discounts its ability to adapt. I mean cancer at it's core is actually the bodies attempt to adapt to a situation that has gone awry. I read somewhere the body creates cancer cells every day of your life but the immune system takes care of it naturally. When someone gets cancer it is because the immune system didn't catch it and it was allowed to multiply.

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
  20. Re:We have to want to cure cancer first by bobbuck · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I'm sure that's what they're thinking. It's not like they could find other things to sell to people living longer. Geesh.

  21. Windows by JustOK · · Score: 2

    Windows isn't a virus, it's a cancer.

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
  22. Why do the "controlling genes" fail? by OldTOP · · Score: 1

    Maybe the few genes that regulate the primitive behavior are simple and incapable of evolving, although it’s not clear why those genes would not mutate. TFA doesn’t give any reason to believe there is only one mechanism for suppressing them, or that it only has one mode of failure.

    --
    The universe was intelligently designed. Unfortunately God was in a hurry so he coded it in Java.
  23. Ancient genes by OglinTatas · · Score: 1

    I don't know about curing cancer but once we figure out the ancient genes we'll have access to all kinds of awesome technology. Let's get on this people!

  24. Legacy code by macraig · · Score: 1

    This is certainly adds a new definition for the old term 'legacy code'.

  25. Re:Let the cancer biologists do the cancer biology by oodaloop · · Score: 1

    There ARE Lamarkian mechanisms at work, such as retroviruses. Just because not all acquired characteristics, like scars and lost limbs, are not heritable, does not mean that none are. Mothers pass non-genetic material through the womb and through breast milk for instance.

    --
    Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
  26. All things relate to Star Trek by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We can see an example of a similar concept during a Star Trek TNG Episode 271, where Dr. Crusher accidentally activates a dormant intron causes everyone to de-evolve to something else stored in their historical DNA!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

  27. In other words by el3mentary · · Score: 1

    It's more evolved than 4chan?

    --
    I reject your reality and substitute my own.
  28. big deal by mapkinase · · Score: 1

    Cancer is (1) inability of the cell to keep sticking to the base + (2) inablity of the cell to not divide uncontrollably, both are closely related. If you have structured body of many eukaryotic cells you need your organs (2) to be contained and (1) not to mix

    Early eukaryots were monocellular, so they neither have a need (1) to contain the growth (2) to stick to the base. And that is the simplest behavior of the cell: it grows until third party puts a stop to it, and it does not stick to anything, because sticking requires extra effort.

    Once eukaryots developed and became (1) multicellular, they developed (2) specilialization, so the need for the mechanisms to (1) stick to the base and to (2) control the growth arised. Once those mechanism fail, organism gets cancer.

    Obviously ancient systems that need to be controled by newer anticancer systems go amok when the latter fail, and those systems they are talking about.

    As usual, all is very trivial, and no need for hupla.

    --
    I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
  29. mod up! by tkprit · · Score: 1

    LOL, please!

  30. Re:Let the cancer biologists do the cancer biology by wombatmobile · · Score: 1

    Retroviruses can be endogenous or exogenous. But they aren't inherited if acquired exogenously unless acquired by a germ cell i.e. for e.g. an exogenous retrovirus that causes breast cancer won't be inherited.

  31. Cure? by neoform · · Score: 1

    meaning curing cancer might be not quite as mammoth a task as commonly thought.

    It is when you realize that no pharma company actually wants to cure cancer...

    --
    MABASPLOOM!
  32. Fundimental misunderstanding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Despit citing some pretty major papers the author seems to have fundimentaly misunderstood the nature of cancer (im suprised it got published even in a journal with such a low IF). The hallmarks of cancer, which are referenced but misinterpretted, show that a cell must go through a number of stages before reaching malingancy. Il be coming from this from a skewed angle as I study cancer purely from a DNA Damage response angle (and im only at the PhD stage) but the idea that the cells are going into a 'safe mode' is crazy, insted they need to escape normal control, yes through mutations but most of the time the mutations are found by the cells damage detectors and repaired. its only when mutations in the regulators come about that the cell starts to descend into cancer, This is the principle of most chemotherapy, force cells to repair a type of damage that the cancerous cells have become defective in. An example of this is the current use of PARP inhibitors which forces cells to play with homologous recombination(HR), whether or not you want healthy cells forced to use this is still out for discussion but cells with defective HR die as they cant repair the damage caused by the chemotherapy agent.

    I digress, cancer might one day be a quite managable disease once we can sequence tumours cheaply and easyly but this will still leave many problems. Such as the heterogenity of tumours and the negative effects of chemotherapy in general but it could become something you live with not a menacing shadow.

  33. Prime Directive anyone? by CptJeanLuc · · Score: 1

    This discovery could be a nice intro for a Star Trek TNG episode. Riker comes down with a new aggressive type of cancer and the captain refuses treatment. The crew is not very happy about the decision. Luckily, towards the end of the episode Dr Crusher discovers a method to gently beam cancer cells out of the patient's body. The cells are then relocated to an empty M-class planet.

  34. Cancer is a breakdown of cellular cooperation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Face it: multicellular life is one gigantic hack, bolted onto what were originally single-celled organisms. When that hack breaks, yeah, it's a little like the cells have entered "safe mode", but A) I wouldn't call it "safe", I'd call it "rogue/self-interested mode", and B) almost 3 billion years of evolution of multicellular organisms has led to the evolution of all sorts of specialized systems to detect and deal with the paradox of a cell "going rogue" and resorting to unicellular-like "unbounded growth" mode. Cancer doesn't develop unopposed by the rest of the cells in a body. Cells have built-in systems to deal with it. It's only when these defense systems break down that cancer changes from a single defective cell into an organized tumor that starts diverting resources and causing all sorts of other problems due to the proliferation of those cells.

    Despite what the article implies, there isn't a simple solution to this situation. It's a grand, elaborate, interdependent, multi-layered, necessary and ultimately rather beautiful hack that would impress Rube Goldberg. You can't fix a problem that deeply embedded easily without all sorts of breakage. It's not as if you can tear out the core of it and replace it with something that was "designed from scratch" with multicellularity in mind. Any leftover older genes are going to be deeply intertwined with the function of the essential add-ons, and all sorts of old stuff has been tweaked or tossed while making those changes. We're stuck with cancer as a basic "side effect" of multicellularity.

    With an understanding like this, it can help, but it also means that cancer is a disease as diverse as the cells in the body and as diverse as individual people. It won't have a single solution, more like a solution for each particular type of breakage.

  35. UCLA now using DCA in cancer trials by ninejaguar · · Score: 1
  36. ancient genes? by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Does Joe Flanigan know that he has cancer?

    1. Re:ancient genes? by jameskojiro · · Score: 1

      Well there was that one time he was bitten by a rather nasty bug, who knows what that exposed him to....

      --
      Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
  37. Vitamin D and Coral Calcium by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    I thought Cancer was cured a lot time ago, and its the big pharmaceutical companies that have a conspiracy to keep it going for huge profits!

  38. You wish by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    Really, I wish it was even like any kind of modern code... even code from the Daily WTF.

    It's actually a mess of spaghetti code, where some gene works by misusing another gene in perverse ways. And one gene ends up controlling hair color, blood clotting, fight-or-flight response, _and_ sensitivity to pain and anesthetics. And some parts are both code and data (in as much as you can call a bit of DNA either.) And, I kid you not, you actually have at least one bit of self-modifying code in your immune system.

    (Not to mention, one which temporarily produces invalid DNA, to misuse a repair mechanism to do the modification for it. It's akin to using some obscure bug to force a bit to store a 2 instead of 0 or 1, in order to exploit a quirk in the memory parity circuitry. That kind of non-orthogonal programming.)

    And some bugs which have been left unfixed for tens of millions of years... and we still do workarounds for. E.g., you actually have a gene that would have normally allowed you to synthesize as much vitamin C as you need, but it got broken in one of our very distant monkey ancestors. And since it was eating lots of fruits, there was no pressure to select the broken gene out.

    Really, it's _such_ a complete mess...

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  39. Wrong conclusion - it will never be easy to cure by Fractal+Dice · · Score: 1

    Cancer is the natural state of cells. Non-cancer is a state our bodies have achieved through intricate command-and-control mechanisms. We are a colony of trillion individual living cells all working under a social contract that has them all sworn to celebacy and pinning all their hopes and dreams on the success or failure of a few eggs and sperm fired off into the beyond. All it takes is a breakdown in one frustrated cellular rebel saying "enough of this, I'm doing my own thing!" and you have a cancer. In fact you have cancers all the time and the body is constantly putting down the rebellions. Every now and then, one of them will get out of control. It's the fate that eventually dooms any multi-cellular life (especially animal life where our default cell template is a squirming little ameoba that doesn't have to accept sitting where it was born in the body).

    Saying that a universal cure for cancer can be found because cancer cells typically behave in a more primitive way is like saying a crime-free society can be achieved because criminals tend to be less educated.

  40. Re:We have to want to cure cancer first by mark-t · · Score: 2

    It never ceases to amaze me how many people one can readily find who will just mentally glom onto a conspiracy theory and resolutely hold to that notion as though it were an incontrovertible fact, simultaneously ignoring not only the reasonable evidence that might well suggest that the perspective is wrong, and also ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support the notion outside of the contrived ideas that build up the notion in the first place, but also choosing to completely disregard the very real factors in the world that are likely to have prevented such a conspiracy from developing in the first place.

  41. The new ethical standards of curing cancer? by theBuddman · · Score: 1

    So.... when we're treating cancer we're destroying future civilizations?? Isn't that against the prime directive?

  42. Re:Socio-political summary.. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

    I so wish I had Mod points today. I am sick of everyone making everything a political view.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  43. Requisite car analogy by omems · · Score: 1

    "...colonies of eukaryotic cells in which cellular cooperation was fairly rudimentary, consisting of networks of adhering cells exchanging information chemically, and forming self-organized assemblages with only a moderate division of labor. These proto-metazoans were effectively small, loosely-knit ecosystems that fell short of the complex organization and regulation we associate with most modern metazoans. In short, proto-metazoans, which we dub Metazoans 1.0, were tumor-like neoplasms." Just because it has wheels, fenders, an engine, a steering wheel, etc doesn't make a car and a truck equivalent.

  44. Contagious cancer: The evolution of a killer by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

    http://harpers.org/archive/2008/04/0081988

    Excerpt:

    Cancer and evolution have traditionally been considered separately by different scientists with different interests using different methods. You could graduate from medical school, you could follow that with a Ph.D. in cell biology or molecular genetics, you could become a respected oncologist or a well-funded cancer researcher, without ever having read Darwin. You could do it, in fact, without having studied much evolutionary biology at all. Many cell and molecular biologists tended even to scorn evolutionary biology as a “merely descriptive” enterprise, lacking the rigor, quantifiability, and explanatory power of their disciplines. There were exceptions to this disconnect, cancer scientists who even during the early days thought in evolutionary terms, but those scientists had little influence.

    In recent decades, however, the situation has changed, as molecular genetics and evolutionary biology have converged on some shared questions. One signal act of synthesis occurred in 1976 when a leukemia researcher named Peter Nowell published a theoretical paper in Science titled “The Clonal Evolution of Tumor Cell Populations.” Nowell proposed what was then a novel idea: that the biological events occurring when cells progress from normal to pre-cancerous to cancerous represent a form of evolution by natural selection. As with the evolution of species, he suggested, the evolution of malignant tumors requires two conditions: genetic diversity among the individuals of a population and competition among those individuals for limited resources. Genetic diversity within one mass of pre-cancerous cells comes from mutations—copying errors and other forms of change—that yield variants as the cells reproduce. That is, in the very act of replicating themselves (sometimes inaccurately), the cells diversify into a population encompassing some small genetic differences between one cell and another. Each variant cell then replicates itself true to type, constituting a clonal lineage (a lineage of accurate copies), until the next mutation creates a new variant. The fittest variants survive and proliferate. By this means, the genetic character of the cell population gradually changes, and with such change comes adaptation, a better fit to environmental circumstances. What constitutes “the fittest” among clonal lineages within a pre-cancerous growth? Those that can reproduce fastest. Those that can resist chemotherapy. Those that can metastasize and therefore escape the surgeon’s knife.

    Nowell’s hypothesis about tumor evolution became widely known and accepted within certain circles of cancer research. (Among other researchers, it wasn’t adamantly disputed but merely ignored.) Those circles have more recently produced a lot of rich theorizing, and a smaller amount of empirical work, supporting Nowell and carrying his idea forward. A culmination of sorts occurred in 2000, when the cancer geneticist Robert Weinberg, discoverer of the first human oncogene and the first tumor suppressor gene, published a concise paper titled “The Hallmarks of Cancer.” Weinberg and his coauthor, Doug las Hanahan, described six “acquired capabilities,” such as endless self-replication, the ignoring of antigrowth signals, the invasion of neighboring tissues, and the refusal to die, that collectively characterize cancer cells. How are those capabilities acquired? By mutations and other genetic changes, giving cells with one such trait or another competitive advantage over normal cells. Hanahan and Weinberg added that “tumor development proceeds via a process formally analogous to Darwinian evolution.” With this cautious phrasing, they gave authoritative endorsement to the idea that Peter Nowell had proposed: Cancers, like species, evolve.

    --
    -kgj
  45. Such a mammoth task by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

    Anything is easy once you have a solution. What did it take to get to that solution? Add it up, it still looks like a mammoth task if you ask me.

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  46. UCLA now using DCA in cancer trials(Gordian Knot?) by ninejaguar · · Score: 1
  47. Re:Wrong conclusion - it will never be easy to cur by stevelinton · · Score: 1

    Saying that a universal cure for cancer can be found because cancer cells typically behave in a more primitive way is like saying a crime-free society can be achieved because criminals tend to be less educated.

    Ignoring the fact that that isn't what the article says, the analogy is an interesting one. Criminals form mobs and gangs, more primitive structures than a complex society, based, perhaps on behviours we evolved when we lived in tribes. Understanding enough about tribe, mob and gang dynamics might give you ways to disrupt all common, or even all possible, mob or gang structures.

  48. Re:Let the cancer biologists do the cancer biology by hey! · · Score: 1

    Even if their hypothesis is correct, that cancer involves the malfunctioning of a set of evolutionarily conserved genomic structures and processes, what evidence is there for concluding that combating cancer is not as going to be as complex as [something else we don't understand fully yet either]?

    None. It's premature to talk about evidence for how this will affect future therapies. At present this is just an idea -- maybe not even quite an hypothesis yet -- that might lead in some interesting directions. Like most such ideas it probably won't pan out, but there's nothing wrong with that.

    It does no harm to entertain such an idea. If, as is most likely, this idea leads to a quick dead end, thinking about it will hardly have derailed the progress of science. We'll just add it to the great corpus of negative results and move on.

    Who's to say that the unknown processes that cause genome modifications which sometimes result in cancer are not still evolving?

    William of Occam for one. One can admit that such a thing is possible without having to assume it is so at this stage. Unless you have a specific mechanism in mind that has been empirically tested, this argument doesn't really have any force. If we *discover* such a heretofore unidentified mechanism, that counts as real scientific progress even if it is yet one more empirical reason we'll never have a silver bullet for cancer.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  49. The University of Alberta Discovery by ninejaguar · · Score: 1

    "...it may soon be used as an effective treatment for many forms of cancer."

    http://www.dca.med.ualberta.ca/Home/Updates/2007-03-15_Update.cfm

    "The University of Alberta Discovery

    DCA is an odourless, colourless, inexpensive, relatively non-toxic, small molecule. And researchers at the University of Alberta believe it may soon be used as an effective treatment for many forms of cancer.

    Dr. Evangelos Michelakis, a professor at the U of A Department of Medicine, has shown that dichloroacetate (DCA) causes regression in several cancers, including lung, breast, and brain tumors.

    Michelakis and his colleagues, including post-doctoral fellow Dr. Sebastien Bonnet, have published the results of their research in the journal Cancer Cell.

    Scientists and doctors have used DCA for decades to treat children with inborn errors of metabolism due to mitochondrial diseases. Mitochondria, the energy producing units in cells, have been connected with cancer since the 1930s, when researchers first noticed that these organelles dysfunction when cancer is present.

    Until recently, researchers believed that cancer-affected mitochondria are permanently damaged and that this damage is the result, not the cause, of the cancer. But Michelakis, a cardiologist, questioned this belief and began testing DCA, which activates a critical mitochondrial enzyme, as a way to "revive" cancer-affected mitochondria.

    The results astounded him.

    Michelakis and his colleagues found that DCA normalized the mitochondrial function in many cancers, showing that their function was actively suppressed by the cancer but was not permanently damaged by it.

    More importantly, they found that the normalization of mitochondrial function resulted in a significant decrease in tumor growth both in test tubes and in animal models. Also, they noted that DCA, unlike most currently used chemotherapies, did not have any effects on normal, non-cancerous tissues.

    "I think DCA can be selective for cancer because it attacks a fundamental process in cancer development that is unique to cancer cells," Michelakis said. "One of the really exciting things about this compound is that it might be able to treat many different forms of cancer".

    Another encouraging thing about DCA is that, being so small, it is easily absorbed in the body, and, after oral intake, it can reach areas in the body that other drugs cannot, making it possible to treat brain cancers, for example.

    Also, because DCA has been used in both healthy people and sick patients with mitochondrial diseases, researchers already know that it is a relatively non-toxic molecule that can be immediately tested patients with cancer.

    "The results are intriguing because they point to the critical role that mitochondria play: they impart a unique trait to cancer cells that can be exploited for cancer therapy"
    Dario Alteri
    Director University of Massachusetts Cancer Center

    Investing in Research

    The DCA compound is not patented and not owned by any pharmaceutical company, and, therefore, would likely be an inexpensive drug to administer, says Michelakis, the Canada Research Chair in Pulmonary Hypertension and Director of the Pulmonary Hypertension Program with Capital Health, one of Canada's largest health authorities.

    However, as DCA is not patented, Michelakis is concerned that it may be difficult to find funding from private investors to test DCA in clinical trials. He is grateful for the support he has already received from publicly funded agencies, such as the Canadian Institutes for Health Research (CIHR), and he is hopeful such support will continue and allow him to conduct clinical trials of DCA on cancer patients.

    Michelakis' research is currently funded by the CIHR, the Canada Foundation for Innovation, the Canada Research Chairs program, and the Alberta Her

  50. Re:Let the cancer biologists do the cancer biology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cancer biologist might not be able to think outside the box of cancer biology... which is a growing problem in all fields of science.

  51. This is bullshit. Telomers are why cancer grows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cancer cells are immortal in the ironic sense that left alone their telomers do not break off after cell division which lets them grow out of control. Normal cells have the telomer "wick" shortened during one's lifespan.

  52. Gene therapy by gravis777 · · Score: 1

    [i]which kick in when our more recently evolved genes that keep them in check break down.[/i]

    So..... Are they suggesting that a cure to cancer could be as simple as gene therapy? That is, simply replacing these genes that break down?

  53. Atavistic: YES, Easy Cure: NO by mhackarbie · · Score: 1

    I've always thought it obvious that the proliferative capabilities of cancer cells resulted from leveraging ancient genes but I give the authors credit for stating it explicitly. However, I believe their conclusions that this improves hope for a cure are dead wrong, for the following reasons:

    1. One billions years old is not very old biochemically. Most of the intracellular biochemical tricks are already old hat to the one-billion year old cell - they are not the gullible rubes you think they are.

    2. You might expect cancer cells to be predictable because they fall back on early evolved mechanisms. Your expectations are just as likely to be wrong because proto-multicellular life could be a lot more mutable and adaptable than later, highly-constrained organisms. An analogy would be the greater speed and flexibility of older, smaller and simpler human cities and governments to form and adapt compared to the modern regulation-bound and bureaucratic ones.

    In fact, if mutability itself turns out to be a 'tunable' property of ancient life, we can expect to be continually surprised by those 'primitive' cancer cells.

    --
    Building a better ribosome since 1997
  54. Second level question? by pugugly · · Score: 1

    This brings up a second level consideration as well - Cancer cells are remarkably similar to stem cells as well (Or so I've been given to understand as a layman).

    If that's the case, are stem cells also an atavism, but more useful, and can cancer cells be switched over into stem cell mode in some way?

    Pug

    --
    An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
  55. Smoking? by GWBasic · · Score: 1

    Does this mean I can pick up smoking if it's fortified with cancer-blocking enzymes?

    1. Re:Smoking? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Even if that was possible, you still wouldn't want to smoke. Emphysema is a bad thing to have. It leaves you with a torturous shortness of breath sometimes requiring the assistance of oxygen bottles. At minimum, smoking ruins your sense of smell and taste. Not to mention your 2nd hand smoke lingers on your clothes leaving a very unpleasant smell.

      All that said. It's your body. Just don't ask the rest of society to pick up the tab for the health care needed to cover the self-inflicted abuse you've done to yourself.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    2. Re:Smoking? by GWBasic · · Score: 1

      All that said. It's your body. Just don't ask the rest of society to pick up the tab for the health care needed to cover the self-inflicted abuse you've done to yourself.

      I don't smoke because I've seen plenty of older people with nasty health problems. But the reality is that I like cigarettes, and the "don't smoke because it's bad for you crowd" doesn't seem to understand that finding a healthy replacement would be a good thing for people who generally enjoy it.

      The real thing that bugs me is that I can't find any data about studies on e-cigarettes. They don't stink like regular cigarettes, but no one knows if they are safe for long-term use.

      Anyway, because real cigarettes kill, and the fake ones don't have any safety data, I abstain.

  56. Terminology is limiting thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I work in cancer diagnosis (Pathologist).
    TFA is largely right. The oncogene / anti-oncogene model is wrong.
    This is not new thinking, it is just that the unfortunate terminology we are saddled with makes it hard to get this concept across to a wider audience. Some authors are avoiding the oncogene / anti-oncogene terminology but as yet there is no consensus on this.

    They were named that way because they were first identified in cancers (oncogenes) or found to be non functional in cancers (anti-oncogenes).
    They were thought of as genetic time bombs and relics of the past and were named accordingly (Rb = retinoblastoma gene).
    Nothing could be further from the truth.
    These genes are highly conserved across genera and some (segmentation genes) are shared with insects.
    These genes form a complex web of interaction that controls cellular proliferation, differentiation and death. They are the key to complex multicellular life.
    When we understand the components of this web (just scratching the surface) and how they interact (only a few simple links identified so far) then a range of specific cancer treatments as envisaged in TFA should be possible.

  57. Not a great track record by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think this is the same Paul Davies who contributed to NASA's arsenic-bacteria debacle.

  58. We're trying to look like you know something??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Wow, could you be a bigger ASS? Why don't you follow the links to the study they bothered to put in if you're that hot and bothered about it? It looks perfectly legit.

    That web scam's putative mechanism for DCA activity is that cancer cells have completely inactive mitochondria? Are you fucking kidding me? Do you even know what a mitochondrion does?

  59. DCA may be like Alexander cutting the Gordian Knot by ninejaguar · · Score: 1

    Agreed, chemo works except when it doesn't.

    It looks like UCLA is now paying attention and starting their own trial for using DCA on recurring breast cancer (breast cancer that was once treated, but has returned even after chemo).

    http://clinicaltrialsfeeds.org/clinical-trials/show/NCT01029925

    = 9J =

  60. Why has the FDA not approved any drugs like...DCA? by ninejaguar · · Score: 1

    "MMS, B17 and DCA are all unpatentable. The FDA drug approval process is patent-based. Without a full patent and full ownership no pharmaceutical company will invest in drug development as they do not own the rights to the drug. The costs of drug testing are very high, with figures running from several hundred million to over a billion dollars. The FDA expects drug companies to have patent protection to allow them the ability to recover the high drug research and testing costs. Even orphan drugs need patent protection and the FDA often goes one step further by granting marketing exclusivity to compensate for the smaller markets those drugs serve.

    There is no system in place for the development of unpatentable drugs, materials currently in the public domain. These potential therapies do not qualify as generic drugs either, as generics were patented drugs for which the research data has been submitted and the patents have expired. No data is in place for drugs that are not patentable."

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100809202210AA7A6h9

    While it doesn't cover unpatentable drugs, the purpose of the Orphan Drug Act is an attempt to add incentive where Big Pharma can't find any on their own to develop drugs for less well covered diseases. It is a recognition by the government that without patents, drug companies and the universities they partner with are less willing to pursue research where there is no money to be made by a temporary monopoly on the drugs resulting from the research.
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C0CE4DF1F3EF933A05757C0A966958260
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan_drug

    = 9J =

  61. What conspiracy? Unpatentable Drugs and No Profit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unpatentable Drugs and the Standard of Patentability
    http://www.texaslrev.com/issues/vol/87/issue/3/roin

  62. Two cents by Msdose · · Score: 1

    Evolution is the success of the successful. Probably one of the early forms of life was immortal, until something fell on its head. So the kind of life we now experience was the successful adaptation. But it may have retained features of an earlier prototype, when it was immortal, which causes problems down the road.

  63. Do the math. by SkipStein · · Score: 1

    I'm certainly no scientist, but this does make some logical sense. Doctors/Scientists do not know what causes cancer; just ask them. Someone mentioned the pharmaceuticals knowing a 'cure' but propagating drugs instead. There is some logic to that as well; follow the money trail. The fact is that many believe cancer can and is being 'cured' all the time. The 'cause' of many can be found by a bit of regression/statistical analysis. Also applies to Type II diabetes and heart disease. Plot the usage of pesticides fast foods, processed foods, high fructose corn syrup (and other refined sugars); all against the cancer rates. Since the war on cancer, the incidence has hardly been reduced, nor the survival rates by 'modern medicine'. The numbers don't lie! See for yourself! Add to that the increasing dominance of GMO crops which cross-contaminate other more 'natural' neighboring crops; these 'foods' have genetically embedded pathogens/pesticides! How's that for genetic engineering? If you then research doctors like Max Gerson back to the 1940's, you will see a steady, constant track record of cancer cures! Yes CURES. The cure? Just natural foods, organic fruits, vegetables, whole grains. There are numerous clinics around the world (not in the USA) curing cancer with a Holistic approach. They can't do business here in the USA because it is illegal! Yes, the AMA, FDA, Pharmaceuticals have managed to write laws that tell doctors they cannot prescribe non-pharmaceutical treatments or the will loose their license and be prosecuted! Doctors get almost NO education on nutrition, much less nutritional therapies. How is that for following the money trail? Before you toss tomatoes (please place them in a basket as they are high in lycopene and very therapeutic for cancer patients!), let me say that I have prostate cancer! Yep, and treating it with a Holistic approach is working as my PSA levels have returned to normal (see: http://prostatecancerfight.info./ I am walking the walk. So, this genetically based historical comment/research may have some substance after all. If these indeed are primitive genetic throwbacks that have resurfaced because of depressed immune system or other environmental contamination caused deficiency, maybe it should be examined! If whole organic foods can treat/cure cancer, maybe this natural approach addresses the primitive genetic strains by combating it with the same defense mechanisms that the human body has engineered over evolutionary time. So called medical science has made absolutely NO progress in fighting cancer, heart disease, diabetes II and other diseases; while natural organic foods seem to be presenting viable alternatives. Do the math. Chart the 'success' if you can find any. Remember the definition of 'doctors' of a cancer 'cure' is surviving FIVE years! The success of alternative holistic approaches measure success in decades! Go figure. Do your own research! Cheers, Skip Stein Orlando Florida http://www.wholefoods4healthyliving.com/

    --
    Skip Stein Free Agent Management Systems Consulting, Inc. http://www.msc-inc.net www.linkedin.com/in/skipstein
  64. They are making claims about life in the Protero.. by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
    ... Proterozoic which go far, far beyond what we actually know about life then.

    I do realise that it's mostly journalistic hype, but evidence of "tissued" life (as opposed to merely multicellular life) a billion years ago is pretty weak. What the biochemistry of those life forms was is even more speculative.

    (Damn - I'm having a brain fade and can't remember what the most primitive present-day, undifferentiated multicellular organisms is. The flat disc-y things - Placozoa, that's them!)

    Placozoa manage motile multicellular life with even less tissue differentiation than sponges, and appear at least as structurally complex as billion-year old organisms (NB I'm not talking about the 700~550 million year old organisms of the Ediacaran fauna, and I do know the difference). So significant cooperative behaviour of multiple cells (as seen in Placozoa) probably significantly pre-dates 1 billion years ago, while the development of differentiated tissues appears to have happened later.

    There's a lot that we don't know about the transition between single-celled life and multiple-celled (or even multiple-tissued) life. While this work seems to be trying to find out what is happening, it does seem to be rather more wedded to a particular set of assumptions about the sequence of development of certain traits (inter-cellular signalling, differentiation of tissues) than we have evidence for.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  65. Re:Let the cancer biologists do the cancer biology by MenThal · · Score: 1

    In fact, Raloxifene was developed specifically because Tamoxifen which inhibits an oncogene in breast tissue activated the same oncogene in uterine tissue.

    Wait, what? They created a drug that leads to smaller breasts and larger vaginas? These mad scientists have gone too far! Surely, it should be the other way around. Does Raloxifiene do that then? Tighten below and widen above? Crazy off-label uses in 3... 2...

  66. Re:Socio-political summary.. by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

    That's like saying your sick of people talking by making noises with their mouths. Everything is politics. No exceptions.

    --
    Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!