Microsoft To Work With Windows Phone 7 Jailbreakers

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Microsoft To Work With Windows Phone 7 Jailbreakers

Posted by timothy on Saturday February 12, 2011 @01:14AM from the working-against-expectations dept.

markass530 writes "Microsoft had a sit down with the first people to jailbreak their Windows Phone 7. Seems like good progress was made. This seems like a good approach to me. It would be great if Sony, Apple, Microsoft, and several Android phone makers would implement a simple development switch in their phones — these would obviously void the warranty, but it would give hackers the opportunity to actually own their devices without fear of having to jailbreak all over again whenever an update arrives."

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Nokia by devxo · 2011-02-12 01:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

Maybe Nokia has its hand on this? They've never been against locking the platform, you've always had a simple option to enable installing unsigned apps.
1. Re:Nokia by digitalchinky · 2011-02-12 02:48 · Score: 2
  
  Correct, however their tablets were a breath of fresh air with an xterm available through the menu by default, and root available through the software repositories.
  Symbian is locked down as tight as any other mobile phone OS out there, though there are exploits floating around, flash a modified firmware to the phone and you can install anything, certificates or not.
2. Re:Nokia by phantomfive · 2011-02-12 05:57 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I've been following this story from day 1, and to me it looks like the greatest PR attack Microsoft has ever pulled. Back in November, when the 'hackers' first came out with a semi-jailbreak, Microsoft invited them to a party, told them how great they were, said they wanted to work with the homebrew community, and convinced them to remove the tool. What did Microsoft actually do? Nothing other than being really friendly, and they got what they wanted.
  
  Now in January they invited the guys over again, gave them some t-shirts, and talked some more; saying how much they want to work with homebrewers.
  
  But what has Microsoft done? Nothing other than keep their system locked down, prevent people from writing native code, encrypt communication layers so it can't be sniffed, etc. etc. They have done nothing for the homebrew community except token PR statements. It's garbage. Let's see them open the native API, or allow you to use the 'LOADUNSIGNEDNATIVEDLLCAP' when writing your own apps. That's how you could support the homebrew community.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Some hack, some don't by Aaron32 · 2011-02-12 01:18 · Score: 2

These manufacturers need to realize that there are people that don't want to hack their devices (like me) and people that insist on doing so. The people that don't care to will NEVER do it, and those that insist on doing it ALWAYS WILL.
The more rigid you are on something the more you hurt things for those that don't want to circumvent the system. Those that enjoy it will just enjoy doing it even more.
1. Re:Some hack, some don't by Anonymous Coward · 2011-02-12 01:28 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Its not the phones, its the ringtones, apps, media and other features they make money from.
Voiding the warranty by the_other_chewey · 2011-02-12 01:26 · Score: 3, Insightful

It would be great if Sony, Apple, Microsoft, and several Android phone makers would implement a simple development switch in their phones — these would obviously void the warranty [...]
Why?
1. Re:Voiding the warranty by Hobbex · 2011-02-12 02:01 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  PCs come "jailbroken" by default. It didn't void the warranty on my PC when I installed Linux on it. Why should smartphones (which are just pocket sized computers) be any different?
2. Re:Voiding the warranty by jouassou · 2011-02-12 02:22 · Score: 2
  
  That's why you should differentiate between hardware warranty and software warranty.
  
  Jailbreaking a phone should void the software warranty, but when the antenna malfunctions, you should still have your hardware warranty. And in the rare case that the software can break the hardware, the hardware has an obvious design flaw and should be covered by the hardware warranty anyway.
3. Re:Voiding the warranty by peragrin · 2011-02-12 03:00 · Score: 2
  
  your PC doesn't include a radio transmitter with varying output that must talk perfectly with other transceivers in order to prevent widespread jamming.
  Can you image a virus that turned every cell phone it infected into a jammer? That is currently possible with today's smart phones once you jailbreak/root/crack it. Or how about a software hack that can selectively disable your phone?
  Current PC's are covered in massive amounts of hacks and cracks that distribute the spam, do you really want your mobile being open to that kind of attack?
  
  --
  i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
4. Re:Voiding the warranty by Tacvek · 2011-02-12 03:52 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Any phone that allows substantial screwing with the the RF output of the phone is using a poorly designed cellular modem chip (baseband). Short of altering the baseband firmware, the worst that a phone should be able to do is a limited denial of service attack (such as mass producing SMS messages or rapidly starting a phone or data connection, and then droping it before it is fully established, and repeating).
  That said I will admit that there are some rather poor baseband chips out there, which let the main processor specify important RF parameters.
  
  --
  Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
5. Re:Voiding the warranty by UnknowingFool · 2011-02-12 05:15 · Score: 2
  
  Your warranty depends on terms of your purchase. Dell could argue that you voided your warranty because the PC is no longer the same OS. If you built your own it's not as big an issue. At a minimum, Dell can refuse to support your machine. After all why should Dell have to field a support call from you because your Linux network drivers don't work if they installed Win 7 on it. Same thing with Apple. Apple lets you jail break your iPhone; don't ever bring it in for support if you do. .
  
  --
  Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
6. Re:Voiding the warranty by thisnamestoolong · 2011-02-12 05:19 · Score: 2
  
  I am all for tinkering, jailbreaking, hacking, and otherwise customizing my devices. I do fully understand, however, that any damage that is caused to the device in question is on me. It really is not reasonable for me to expect MS, Motorola, or Apple, for instance, to pay to fix to my phone if I overclock it too high and fry it. I do, however, take issue with them trying to prevent me from doing that to begin with -- that is totally uncalled for. I think that you ought to be able to do whatever you want with something that you own, but you should really have to take responsibility for your own actions.
  
  --
  To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
7. Re:Voiding the warranty by UnknowingFool · 2011-02-12 05:36 · Score: 2
  
  Installing Linux doesn't void the warranty on a computer. Downloading a shady file and getting a computer virus doesn't void the warranty on a computer.
  
  Depends on what is covered by your warranty. Installing Linux "shouldn't" void the warranty, but from the perspective of a manufacturer, why should they support an OS that they didn't install? If your manufacturer installed Windows 7, at a minimum, they may not service the computer until it is restored.
  One of the main reasons is that the repair and testing process is made more difficult by an OS changes. Suppose your CD drive stops working. Obvious hardware fault right? Not always. Well you installed Linux and accidentally mapped it to /dev/hda16 instead of /dev/cdrom. If it was Windows, the manufacturer can easily test using Windows tests that it's not a software problem. Suppose that it really was completely hardware like no power to the CD drive at all. Well, the manufacturer replaces it. How do they ensure everything is working if they have limited or no knowledge of Linux. Remember the technician may not be the most computer savvy. They may only know enough to follow a flow chart.
  
  If installing software can damage the hardware, the phones are really not well done. The worst-case scenario should be a matter of plugging in a cable and reflashing the firmware.
  There are ways software can damage hardware. Most phones use flash memory storage. Flash memory has a limited number of writes ranging from 100,000 to 1,000,000. If software was mis-configured to continually write every second, the flash memory will wear out in less than a month. Or if software causes the processor to run at top speed for hours on end for no reason, that overheats the processor and could cause problem. Even if a phone is well made, they are made against a model of "average" usage and not made for extreme conditions. Also your worst-case scenario involves flashing the firmware. A bad firmware update can brick any device. The worst-case scenario is complete failure.
  
  --
  Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
8. Re:Voiding the warranty by drinkypoo · 2011-02-12 07:32 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Your warranty depends on terms of your purchase. Dell could argue that you voided your warranty because the PC is no longer the same OS.
  No, they can not, at least not in the USA. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act prohibits it.
  
  Apple lets you jail break your iPhone; don't ever bring it in for support if you do. .
  As has been pointed out already ad nauseam, you have a legal right to warranty hardware service on your iPhone whether you have jailbroken it or not. They might reasonably refuse you software service.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
9. Re:Voiding the warranty by UnknowingFool · 2011-02-12 08:13 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  No, they can not, at least not in the USA. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act prohibits it.
  No it does not. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act provides a framework for all warranties in the US. It covers general outlines. In the case of modifications, it says that manufacturers cannot outright void warranties based on the act of modification alone. The type of modification must be considered. Also manufacturers are expressly forbidden from tying agreements .
  Suppose, I bought a new Honda and with a manufacturer's warranty and an agreement (with the dealership) of first year free oil changes. The dealer cannot void my warranty if I don't get all my oil changes from them or if you don't use genuine Honda parts during the oil changes. That kind of tying is not allowed.
  However, the dealership is well within their rights not to service any part for free that they didn't install or repair. Otherwise it would have absurd consequences. Anyone could modify anything and expect the manufacturer to service it regardless of what was done. If I installed new tint, that doesn't void my warranty or nullify the oil changes. If I installed a new aftermarket fuel injection system, that voids the warranty on the engine but not the body. That could also nullify my oil change agreement.
  
  As has been pointed out already ad nauseam, you have a legal right to warranty hardware service on your iPhone whether you have jailbroken it or not. They might reasonably refuse you software service.
  As other people have said ad nauseum, warranty coverage is not absolute even under the act you mentioned above. Do you expect Dell to service your computer because it has Linux driver issues with Slackware. Heck no. Apple may service a jailbroken iPhone but most likely they will charge for service since it will not be under warranty.
  
  --
  Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
10. Re:Voiding the warranty by UnknowingFool · 2011-02-12 08:27 · Score: 2
  
  This could be a real concern, but your cdrom example is not one of those times. You can test the CDROM by configuring BIOS and attempting to boot from the restoration media included with the system (or that the user had to make themselves, or that you sell them at an inflated price.) It is reasonable to require the user to have made this media only if you put a notice on the packaging (or a quick start card) instructing them to do so.
  And how would the user know that? If you are modifying a computer by installing Linux, you better know what you are doing. But you never answered the real point: If a user has a problem with a machine, the manufacturer must diagnose the problem if the machine is under warranty. If the machine has been sufficiently changed, it makes it hard for them to do so (and sometimes impossible). If you put Android on an iPhone, do you expect an iPhone technician to be able to figure out what is wrong? They were trained on iOS not Android.
  
  Probably the best way is to have a self-test in BIOS.
  Not the point.
  
  Not if they have two distinct flash areas and use a hardware bank select to prevent a single firmware update from overwriting both, and always overwrite the older image. Most of the motherboards I have bought in the last decade have had dual BIOS.
  Again you miss the point. Modifying a device can be tricky. It may come with unintended consequences. The poster dismissed any concerns going to the remedy of flashing the firmware which has it's own (and ignored) risks.
  
  --
  Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
11. Re:Voiding the warranty by drinkypoo · 2011-02-12 11:32 · Score: 2
  
  However, the dealership is well within their rights not to service any part for free that they didn't install or repair.
  That's very nice, but that's not what we're talking about. If Apple wants to show that something I did voids the warranty then they're going to have to provide the specification which I violated.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
12. Re:Voiding the warranty by thetartanavenger · 2011-02-12 12:19 · Score: 2
  
  PC's come with a method of reinstalling the operating system it came with, phones don't (Although they easily (c|sh)ould). However, given the architecture and technology used in phone systems it is possible to actually brick your phone. Take the storage on most. They use flash memory with limited writes, often partitioned into sections. To get my G1 to run the latest and greatest, those partitions had to be rewritten, something which could have easily damaged the device beyond home repair with the current tools available. If I was allowed to do this without breaking the warranty the phone makers would get more warranty requests for people doing so, and they don't want to have to deal with that. Even if they could just say "You buggered your phone, not us. It's repairable but it'll cost you", it's a large amount of hassle.
  The phone market is a market in transition. They're used to having complete control, and only now is the technology at a stage where doing more with your phone is becoming common. This transition takes time and until there are a majority of users doing it, with stable reliable tools and a better support industry who are expecting people to reinstall their phones, not having it void the warranty isn't really practical.
  
  --
  Who need's speling and grammar?
13. Re:Voiding the warranty by UnknowingFool · 2011-02-12 15:43 · Score: 2
  
  That's very nice, but that's not what we're talking about. If Apple wants to show that something I did voids the warranty then they're going to have to provide the specification which I violated.
  Huh? This entire discussion is about what is considered a modification and when is it covered under warranty. Jailbreaking an iPhone can be considered a modification not covered by warranty. If you replace the engine in your new Honda with an aftermarket model, are you seriously going to argue with a Honda dealership that they need to show which line of the warranty agreement you broke? You and the dealership both know you made significant modifications and you're going to quibble over the exact provision you broke. But if you must ask the general provisions which you broke are as follows in the iPhone 3G warranty:
  
  (e) to damage caused by operating the product outside the permitted or intended uses described by Apple; (f) to damage caused by service (including upgrades and expansions) performed by anyone who is not a representative of Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider (“AASP”); (g) to a product or part that has been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple;
  Any and all 3 provision(s) could apply.
  
  --
  Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
14. Re:Voiding the warranty by BatGnat · 2011-02-13 06:56 · Score: 2
  
  "Support" and "Warranty" are two different things.
XBOX? by FreakyGeeky · 2011-02-12 01:29 · Score: 2

Wake me up with they have the same attitude toward XBOX mods.
strategy ... by georgesdev · 2011-02-12 01:34 · Score: 2

Msoft is desperate to not totally fail in the phone market.
Msoft has just seen how kinect pc hack has created so much buzz.
Msoft Windows is reasonably open, at least more than ipod, or google chrome.
Palm is very supportive of this... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-02-12 01:37 · Score: 4, Informative

Palm (now HP, I guess) tells you how to enter "developer mode" for WebOS on their own website: http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=1639#InstallingEclipsewiththeSDK-dev_mode Developer mode on a WebOS phone is the same as jailbreaking on iOS/Android: it allows you access to the file system, a command line if you want it, and the ability to install applications from any source. There is a LOT of homebrew development for the platform, and all of it is officially supported by Palm/HP. They even recently donated a server to a homebrew dev group.
Re:Once Upon A Time ... by ripnet · 2011-02-12 01:44 · Score: 2

Because the actual radio bit is a separate chip, with a separate OS, which has an API called by the main OS (using modem AT commands AFAIK).
This baseband chip usually doesn't need to be tampered with, and is it this chip that actually communicates with the network.
You can install a totally different OS (eg Android on a windows mobile device), without altering how it talks to the cell network.
I believe the exception to this is to unlock phones which are network locked - i think that involves modying the baseband, which could well be illegal in some places???
Re:on warranties by mikesd81 · 2011-02-12 01:50 · Score: 2

Look at your microwave, DVD player, or any electronic. Find that piece of tape that says "warranty void if broken" So, opening the operating system of the phone is like opening the case of an electronic device. Hell even if you open a big name computer like HP or Dell to do your own upgrade, it voids the warranty. If you chose to do something that could've and possibly did break the phone, why should the manufacture be responsible for blatant user error? Warranties cover wear and tear and DOA devices. But if you do something to break it other than normal wear and tear, why should the manufacture fix it?

--
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
Re:Microsoft desperate by TiberiusMonkey · 2011-02-12 01:55 · Score: 2

...er criminals...?
Void the Warranty? by mercurized · 2011-02-12 01:55 · Score: 5, Interesting

Why would a switch in software like that that void the Warranty? If you buy a PC, you can install any OS you like. The warranty that covers your PC is covering the hardware. If you buy a PC, have no clue what you are doing and end up trashing your windows installation, there is nothing your PC dealer's warranty will ever do for you. At least not for free. If the software is broken you reinstall it or get it serviced somewhere. If the hardware breaks down, you'll be heading up to your dealer for a warranty replacement. Why would a phone be that much different? I even find it ashaming and harsh to realize that most people really buy that crap of "warranty is only void if you do not touch the software", like there was any warranty on the software part at all. Imagine a PC dealership trying to enforce such harsh software usability limitations like "never ever install any other software than the one you got it with, or forget the warranty". Would that actually be possible selling stuff like that? Not here in Europe at least. Imagine a car dealership that denies you your warranty on the engine after a few weeks just because you changed the seat covers. Its nothing different. This entire "Other software voids your warranty" FUD is sparked by the providers and manufacturers that very much like to keep you trapped with them and their software, and sometimes even hold you, your device or your data hostage against yourself, pretty much neglecting the fact that you actually bought the device you are acting with, and still not wanting to give you any space to decide what you actually want to do with it. And the even worst part is, people accept it just like that. Today's Smartphones are more like small PCs than like the old brick phones that couldnt do much. Most of these newer handsets are technically able to run many different operating systems. One can customize the systems as well, far beyond the possibilities the vendor envisioned. It sometimes feels like your PC Vendor tries telling you that you cant put any background image on your windows desktop which you did not buy from him. If you however use your own images, or god beware, remove the logo of said Vendor from the starting screen of the OS that that would be a change that possibly damaged your hardware which in turn would be void then.. Think about it.
1. Re:Void the Warranty? by rrossman2 · 2011-02-12 02:27 · Score: 2
  
  Easy.. look at some of the mixed 2.2 and 2.3 ROMs for android. They can't do a pure 2.3 for the Samsung Galaxy S using code from the Nexus S as the front facing camera runs at a higher voltage on the Nexus S, and using that "driver" on the Galaxy S destroys the front facing camera. Also, the clock speeds and voltages can vary, and if you cross (I think the limit for the Hummingbird is) 3.1v, you could overheat the CPU and cause damage. So software can and has caused hardware to break, and if it's software that you had to break things the manufacturer had put in place to keep that from happening, that can and will void the warranty. Just like if you replace lets say you do something to your motor, swap in a motor that wasn't meant to be in there and had custom motor mounts done. Lets say a mount snaps.. that causes extra stress on the front CV/half-shaft and wheel bearing. If the car was under warranty, the dealer could absolutely say "no way" because the modifications can be shown to have caused the extra damage.
2. Re:Void the Warranty? by thisnamestoolong · 2011-02-12 05:28 · Score: 2
  
  Hardware is not necessarily defective simply because it can easily be destroyed with software! A CPU has no way to know what clock speed it is supposed to be running at. Any fool can install a custom ROM on a smartphone with a custom kernel capable of ramping up the stock voltage beyond what the CPU is able to handle. How does that imply that the CPU was defective? Going back to your car analogy -- that is liking blaming the car because the engine seized when you tried to run it for 20,000 miles without an oil change.
  
  --
  To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
3. Re:Void the Warranty? by tlhIngan · 2011-02-12 18:21 · Score: 2
  
  Again, yes it is! Why was it possible to run the CPU faster than it could handle? If it can only operate up to a certain speed, why can the clock be set faster? Why will the regulator even allow software to command the voltage above the maximum acceptable value?
  Because they're binned? If I buy a 1.2GHz CPU that's also available in 1.0 and 1.5GHz flavors, there's a good chance I could run it at 1.5GHz and be successful. Hell, I think there's a term for this, called overclocking.
  And in the embedded world, setting clocks can be very complex - some of these SoCs have very complicated clocking trees that can involve easily 10 or more clock divisors that have to be set between boundaries - the chip manufacturer has no way of knowing how to limit the values (some clocks depend on external buses - like memory clocks may be set to 133MHz, 166MHz, 100MHz, and so on), so actually designing a real clock lookup table is complex.
  And some chips require you specify the PLL clock multipliers and dividers, of which there are many valid settings. The only real way to lock it out properly would involve lots of transistors dedicated to determining if the clock settings are valid for the particular operating mode, which just end up consuming power to gain very little.
  And let's not forget things like software defined radios in things like bluetooth, 3G and wifi modules. Program them the wrong way and you could expose the final stages to powers and currents they were never designed for and burn out the finals. It's all software controlled in the end.
  Software is driving a lot of hardware - the hardware's smart, but to be flexible a lot of functions that requires dedicated hardware have been put into software. A bug in the software can brick hardware really easily - an accidental write to one-time-programmable memory can erase vital settings (serial numbers, keys, RF calibration, etc).
  Yes, you could build hardware that's immune to software bugs, but then when some dandy new feature comes out, you end up having to replace the hardware because it's locking out the software from doing those things.
4. Re:Void the Warranty? by sjames · 2011-02-12 20:11 · Score: 2
  
  If I buy a 1.2GHz CPU that's also available in 1.0 and 1.5GHz flavors, there's a good chance I could run it at 1.5GHz and be successful. Hell, I think there's a term for this, called overclocking.
  That isn't a case I was talking about. You won't let the smoke out if you overclock, though you might end up in a thermal shutdown. That's perfectly fine and is a clue that you've exceeded the max. Back off the settings and all is well again.
  
  And in the embedded world, setting clocks can be very complex - some of these SoCs have very complicated clocking trees that can involve easily 10 or more clock divisors that have to be set between boundaries - the chip manufacturer has no way of knowing how to limit the values (some clocks depend on external buses - like memory clocks may be set to 133MHz, 166MHz, 100MHz, and so on), so actually designing a real clock lookup table is complex.
  Yes, I have actually done memory init code before. Get it wrong and the RAM doesn't init correctly. Usually that means no boot for you. Sometimes it just means flaky operation. It does not mean the hardware burns out.
  
  And let's not forget things like software defined radios in things like bluetooth, 3G and wifi modules. Program them the wrong way and you could expose the final stages to powers and currents they were never designed for and burn out the finals. It's all software controlled in the end.
  Those radios do have maximum possible outputs constrained by their input voltage and current. If the final stages are speced to handle those maximum values, nobody gets hurt!
  
  Software is driving a lot of hardware - the hardware's smart, but to be flexible a lot of functions that requires dedicated hardware have been put into software. A bug in the software can brick hardware really easily - an accidental write to one-time-programmable memory can erase vital settings (serial numbers, keys, RF calibration, etc).
  Since the OTP areas are written at the factory, if I can accidentally re-write them, the hardware is necessarily defective. There's not supposed to be a such thing as two time programmable memory!
  
  Yes, you could build hardware that's immune to software bugs, but then when some dandy new feature comes out, you end up having to replace the hardware because it's locking out the software from doing those things.
  Now you've circled around. I can assure you there is no case where the ability to set a register to the "halt, catch fire" mode will allow anything useful to be done later. Any setting that I have argued should be impossible in software would be destructive if allowed. No non-destructive setting should be prevented.
webOS has had this from the beginning by Loudergood · 2011-02-12 02:09 · Score: 2

Just type either webos20090606 or upupdowndownleftrightleftrightbastart and the developer mode switch pops up on the screen. They also paid airfare and hotel for one of the top homebrew developers to come to their last major developer conference. Oh and they just sent that team a brand new HP server with no strings attached.
XNA by tepples · 2011-02-12 05:00 · Score: 2

Are you kidding? Xbox 360 is the most open of the three major consoles. Unlike PLAYSTATION 3 and Wii, Xbox 360 officially allows individuals to develop video games using C# and the XNA library and sell them.