Microsoft To Work With Windows Phone 7 Jailbreakers

markass530 writes "Microsoft had a sit down with the first people to jailbreak their Windows Phone 7. Seems like good progress was made. This seems like a good approach to me. It would be great if Sony, Apple, Microsoft, and several Android phone makers would implement a simple development switch in their phones — these would obviously void the warranty, but it would give hackers the opportunity to actually own their devices without fear of having to jailbreak all over again whenever an update arrives."

Comments

Nokia

[devxo]

Maybe Nokia has its hand on this? They've never been against locking the platform, you've always had a simple option to enable installing unsigned apps.

Re:Nokia

[lennier1]

Nokia simply takes the most sane route. If the application isn't signed just display a notification and let the user choose whether to proceed or not.

Re:Nokia

[bWareiWare.co.uk]

S60 3ed (probably the peek of their smartphones, N95 etc.) had mandatory code signing, and Unlike Android, self-signed apps can never access a significant number of useful permissions (and signing for distribution was vastly more expensive as apps had to be vetted). I expect that later versions keep this feature but I had switched by then. However running your own apps, even native apps, dose not equate to root accesses.

Re:Nokia

[digitalchinky]

Correct, however their tablets were a breath of fresh air with an xterm available through the menu by default, and root available through the software repositories.

Symbian is locked down as tight as any other mobile phone OS out there, though there are exploits floating around, flash a modified firmware to the phone and you can install anything, certificates or not.

Re:Nokia

[bami]

My S60 3ed (Nokia E71) allows me to install everything I want without code signing (bought simlock free, and not from a carrier so maybe it is some option they have to enable?) . It has this nifty little option in the settings that allow unsigned code to be run.

You need to sign it yourself using some 3rd party to get rid of the constant "Do you want app x to access your y)" notifications though, but unsigned apps can use them, if the users gives it permission every time (and if you code your application right, only on startup).

Re:Nokia

[bWareiWare.co.uk]

If you can use unsigned or self-signed applications that can use permissions (CommDD, MultimediaDD, NetworkControl, DiskAdmin, DRM, AllFiles, or TCB) (i.e. A file browser that can list files in c:\private or z:\sys) you have a hacked phone. Whilst hacking most Nokias is possible it is at least as hard, and warranty voiding as an iPhone or Android.

Re:Nokia

[oji-sama]

Hmm. All the ones I've seen have had option to always allow in the settings menu (before you launch the app). It was a bit unclear though, but it works...

Re:Nokia

[phantomfive]

I've been following this story from day 1, and to me it looks like the greatest PR attack Microsoft has ever pulled. Back in November, when the 'hackers' first came out with a semi-jailbreak, Microsoft invited them to a party, told them how great they were, said they wanted to work with the homebrew community, and convinced them to remove the tool. What did Microsoft actually do? Nothing other than being really friendly, and they got what they wanted.

Now in January they invited the guys over again, gave them some t-shirts, and talked some more; saying how much they want to work with homebrewers.

But what has Microsoft done? Nothing other than keep their system locked down, prevent people from writing native code, encrypt communication layers so it can't be sniffed, etc. etc. They have done nothing for the homebrew community except token PR statements. It's garbage. Let's see them open the native API, or allow you to use the 'LOADUNSIGNEDNATIVEDLLCAP' when writing your own apps. That's how you could support the homebrew community.

Re:Nokia

[portalcake625]

Hacking S60 FP1 and FP2 are PITAs, but at least you don't have to keep waiting for a new version of HelloOX every time. Still rocking my N95 alongside my N900 and HD2, and the unsigned apps make the awful Symbian UI bearable. That, plus the fact that it has a nice 5MP camera.

Re:Nokia

[WorBlux]

Even when you brick the phone, there's usually nothing wrong with the hardware, (no defects of materials or workmanship) thus no claim you could make under warranty.

Some hack, some don't

[Aaron32]

These manufacturers need to realize that there are people that don't want to hack their devices (like me) and people that insist on doing so. The people that don't care to will NEVER do it, and those that insist on doing it ALWAYS WILL.

The more rigid you are on something the more you hurt things for those that don't want to circumvent the system. Those that enjoy it will just enjoy doing it even more.

Re:Some hack, some don't

[Joce640k]

Yep. How can even the thickest PHB think they'll sell *more* phones by locking them down?

Re:Some hack, some don't

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not the phones, its the ringtones, apps, media and other features they make money from.

Re:Some hack, some don't

[definate]

Yeah, and they also make money from them being jailbreakable. It's less direct, but it's true. Jailbreaking provides value, more for some than others. For me it's essential, I wouldn't buy one otherwise. I know this is the same for a lot of people.

Re:Some hack, some don't

[definate]

Yeah, however if they have business relationships / contracts which prohibit it, I'd be releasing a good perfect jailbreak myself, just release a "cracked" ipsw (for iPhone) for each version. A little civil disobedience. Done.

Re:Some hack, some don't

[mr100percent]

It's not just a matter of selling phones, but to prevent piracy and DRM-circumvention. There are figures that as many as 60% of current iPhone apps are pirated (via jailbreaking of course). Look at how Netflix is dragging their feet on an android client, they have to have a reasonably-secure DRM before the studios will let them stream content.

Re:Some hack, some don't

[definate]

Additionally, I would argue that it also adds value for publishers. I NEVER buy something I haven't run for a significant amount of time, cracked. Yet, I've spent a fuck load of money on software, which I already had cracked. Mainly because I realize it has value, and want to support the developer. Additionally, there are network effects, which most software vendors recognize, and is why they turn a blind eye to piracy in certain markets, or offer dramatic discounts (such as in china, or to students).

Regardless of whether people think this is legal/moral/right or not, I know many people like it, and this is intuitively how many people think.

Ergo, a rational self profit maximizing company, would not put too much effort in attempting to stop this.

Though, I feel like this is a "Oh great, this old thread" moment, since this has been repeated over and over again on here, even by myself.

Re:Some hack, some don't

[Bert64]

Piracy was also a great driver for PC gaming... But i see your point, i was in school during the Amiga days and they were by far the most prevalent computers among my peers... Parents chose them specifically so we could trade copies of games with our friends, and it didn't make us spend any less (we only had limited income and still bought games with it), we just had more games for the same spend.

Incidentally, why is windows excluded from your megacorp blacklist? I would have thought it would be one of the worst things about microsoft...

Re:Some hack, some don't

[Anonymous Coward]

The C-64 was only a best seller from 83-85, the Amiga never was.

Re:Some hack, some don't

[Bert64]

And despite the 60% figure, and having to perform a procedure that requires at least a little forethought, iphones are still selling like hotcakes...

No DRM scheme can be secure by its very nature, the only reason some schemes get cracked faster than others is down to laziness on the hackers part, why bother cracking one scheme when the same content is available via other schemes that are already cracked?

Put it this way, the sony ps3 was the last of the 3 major consoles to be cracked, and yet going for years without being cracked resulted in the xbox360 and wii taking the majority of marketshare, and very few ps3-exclusive games.

Piracy helps a platform sell, most of those pirates will also buy things and piracy allows them to have more software rather than to spend less on it, ie without piracy they would just have less content and thus less interest in the platform rather than spending more (money that they dont have)...

Re:Some hack, some don't

[Runaway1956]

Now you're talking - but the thrust of your point is a wee bit off target. If I own ANYTHING with a CPU and an OS on it, I'm going to be ROOT! I will get in there, play with the kernel (at least as much as I can understand to play with) and see just how it works, why it works, and if it can't be made to work better. Nope, I'm not going to be merely "Administrator", in the context that Windows permits you to be administrator. I want to be ROOT - nothing more, nothing less. My refrigerator isn't rooted yet - but when they put a CPU on the damned thing, it certainly will be!

Re:Some hack, some don't

[definate]

LOL Fair enough.

However you rationalize it, the result is the same, having absolute access, creates more value for us, and them, regardless of whether or not that access is used individually.

Re:Some hack, some don't

[v1]

There are figures that as many as 60% of current iPhone apps are pirated (via jailbreaking of course)

That statistic is very misleading. Less than 10% of iphones are jailbroken. OBVIOUSLY that's where all the pirated apps are, since that's where they have to be. So anyone that wants to pirate apps will be jailbreaking their phone, and loading lots of pirated apps onto it.

And of that 10% there will be a percentage of people (like me) that jailbreak it because they want to unlock it or have access to unsigned apps. So in reality the number of people pirating is probably closers to 8-9%.

It comes as no surprise that 9% of people on a platform can pirate enough software to make the overall % pirated software approach 60%. If I wanted to I could install 100 pirated apps. Compare that to the average user installing 15 or so legit apps, and I throw off the whole curve and by that statistic I make it look like everyone is a pirate, and the above statement seems to imply that a LOT of people are jailbreaking.

"60% of current iPhone apps are pirated (via jailbreaking of course)." is too easy to interpret as "60% of iphones are jailbroken", which is totally off-base.

Re:Some hack, some don't

[shentino]

Usually it's the PHB's kissing ass with the networks that order lockdowns.

Re:Some hack, some don't

[Sp0r]

I think the weekly video "Extra Credits" on The Escapist said this best - Don't try to stop people who WANT to install Linux on their PS3. You're just going to make them angry.

Re:Some hack, some don't

[Dogtanian]

The C-64 was only a best seller from 83-85, the Amiga never was.

I would guess that you live in North America. The Amiga might not have done too well there, but it was massively popular throughout Western Europe during the late-80s and early-90s.

Re the C64, I assume you meant that it was later eclipsed by the NES's success. This again wasn't the case everywhere- in the UK, the 8-bit market continued to be based primarily around home computers, and while the 8-bit consoles sold, they were never a dominant part of the market. (Matter of fact, the NES was *outsold* here by the Sega Master System!)

Was this like

[Compaqt]

Suleiman meeting with the protesters ?

Put Android on it!

[Threni]

Then we'll see how the hardware compares with other Android devices! My money is on it being a rather inferior experience with an even worse battery life than more current Android phones.

Re:Put Android on it!

[shutdown -p now]

The hardware on WP7 phones is not some exotic stuff, it's by and large the same that is used in the current generation of Android phones. All specs are available, too. So I don't see why you'd need to benchmark software running on it to conclude that two identical CPUs have the same performance (for example).

Voiding the warranty

[the_other_chewey]

It would be great if Sony, Apple, Microsoft, and several Android phone makers would implement a simple development switch in their phones — these would obviously void the warranty [...]

Why?

Re:Voiding the warranty

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

Once you jailbreak a phone though there is a lot more you can do than simply install unapproved apps.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[Cwix]

If you can brick your phone that easily with software, then yea they should fix it.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

After you jailbreak a phone there are a lot of things you could do to break it. For example, if you mess around and overwrite critical system files MS won't be responsible for fixing it for you.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[Nerdfest]

Hackers? In the case of Apple, how about if I want to run an app that they don't approve of? Perhaps a better browser or phone application?

Re:Voiding the warranty

[Hobbex]

PCs come "jailbroken" by default. It didn't void the warranty on my PC when I installed Linux on it. Why should smartphones (which are just pocket sized computers) be any different?

Re:Voiding the warranty

[zm]

OK, so I jailbreak my phone, then the screen dies, or power switch stops working, or any other hardware issue appears. I have every right to have that fixed.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[drinkypoo]

After you jailbreak a phone there are a lot of things you could do to break it. For example, if you mess around and overwrite critical system files MS won't be responsible for fixing it for you.

That's very nice, but the Magnuson-Moss warranty act explicitly protects replacing components with components which meet or exceed the original specification. Where the API is published it is possible to meet this specification. In order to prove that it has not been met it must be published. So there is really no grounds for denying warranty coverage based on jailbreaking.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[jouassou]

That's why you should differentiate between hardware warranty and software warranty.

Jailbreaking a phone should void the software warranty, but when the antenna malfunctions, you should still have your hardware warranty. And in the rare case that the software can break the hardware, the hardware has an obvious design flaw and should be covered by the hardware warranty anyway.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

One would assume that is correct. The article is just about Microsoft's warranty on its software. Any warranty on the hardware would presumably be a separate issue entirely to take up with the hardware supplier.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[Killjoy_NL]

a bit off topic, but the guys name in your sig is Stephen Colbert :)

on topic, it should not be that hard for the manufacturer to give you a restore cd for your phone so even if you break it, you can restore it.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[the_other_chewey]

The article is just about Microsoft's warranty on its software.

A warranty on Microsoft software? Riiiight...

Re:Voiding the warranty

[peragrin]

your PC doesn't include a radio transmitter with varying output that must talk perfectly with other transceivers in order to prevent widespread jamming.

Can you image a virus that turned every cell phone it infected into a jammer? That is currently possible with today's smart phones once you jailbreak/root/crack it. Or how about a software hack that can selectively disable your phone?

Current PC's are covered in massive amounts of hacks and cracks that distribute the spam, do you really want your mobile being open to that kind of attack?

Re:Voiding the warranty

[NatasRevol]

deltree /F /S /Q c:\
Format C: /U
rm -rf /

Re:Voiding the warranty

[peragrin]

Your hardware includes a software radio, and reprogramable firmware.

What line does the hardware end and software begins. Why don't you take a good look at just how reprogamable your "hardware" actually is before making such stupid statements

Re:Voiding the warranty

[Joe Jay Bee]

That isn't bricking.

Bricking is rendering a device totally inoperable, such that its use is equivalent to that of a brick. Bricking can't be recovered from without intervention from the manufacturer.

What you've described would be very easily rectified (excepting personal data and settings) using an OS install disc, something which could be done by anyone with a modicum of sense.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[shentino]

In theory, updates that are deliberately fragile for anything other than pristine locked phones would count as sabotage.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[shentino]

Because the manufacturer says so?

Really, that's the only reason. As the holder and/or licensor of the patents and copyrights behind the device, as well as the warchest needed to manufacture it, they are in a position to set terms to their liking. And usually, they'll do so if it suits them, or pleases equally large wireless providers who have weight of their own to throw around.

Have a network used for voice data and don't want smart phones clogging it with data? Muscle cell phone makers into locking their phones down.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[Tacvek]

Any phone that allows substantial screwing with the the RF output of the phone is using a poorly designed cellular modem chip (baseband). Short of altering the baseband firmware, the worst that a phone should be able to do is a limited denial of service attack (such as mass producing SMS messages or rapidly starting a phone or data connection, and then droping it before it is fully established, and repeating).

That said I will admit that there are some rather poor baseband chips out there, which let the main processor specify important RF parameters.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[calmofthestorm]

Same reason Dell still has to fix my hard drive if it happens to break after I install linux. Most failures won't be caused by the third-party OS and if your hardware is shoddily designed enough that non-malicious software can brick it, its your problem.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[Tacvek]

Agreed. You cannot warrant against damage caused by the non-standard software. I mean it is not your fault that the software executed a Killer poke or a modern equivalent thereof. The problem is that many companies refuse to warrant against hardware issues not caused by the non-standard software. In some cases it is quite obvious that the software was not responsible, such as structural defects in the case that caused it crack and those should still be covered. The nasty case is when the problem is a type that could have been caused by software, or may have been a hardware issue, and there is no no easy way to tell them apart. In that case, not covering the issue under the warranty may be entirely reasonable.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[jo_ham]

For the same reason that any warranty-covered device loses the protection of the warranty if you change something on it - you can't guarantee that you didn't break it yourself.

In the majority of cases, going into the equivalent of "jailbroken" mode won't have any negative effect, but there is always the possibility that something may go wrong - huge data loss (and poisoning of your backup on sync), maybe you drop a new baseband firmware on there that puts it outside the licenced spectrum, etc. Once you put a switch in place that says "go nuts", you know that most people really won;t do anything to affect the warranty, but there will be some who take it way outside the coverage. It's only usual that this is not covered.

You can't simultaneously claim "it's my phone, I should be able to do *absolutely anything at all* to it" on one hand and on the other say "anything I do that breaks it must still be covered by the warranty!"

Buy a 27" iMac and add a user-installed external SATA port by connecting one up to the unused internal one on the logic board and dremmeling a small slot on the bottom of the case near the RAM door, but don't expect Apple to fix it under Applecare for free if you damage it.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[AmberBlackCat]

Installing Linux doesn't void the warranty on a computer. Downloading a shady file and getting a computer virus doesn't void the warranty on a computer. If installing software can damage the hardware, the phones are really not well done. The worst-case scenario should be a matter of plugging in a cable and reflashing the firmware.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[GameboyRMH]

This is how it works on the N900. If you do a "sudo rm -rf /", all you have to do to get it running again is a "reflash" - it basically re-images the internal storage and it's good as new again.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[Joe Jay Bee]

Same as my Motorola Defy when it got screwed up by my poor, amateur attempts to reflash it. Plug into USB, put the phone into its bootloader and click a button on the PC and it's all well again. It's very hard to truly "brick" anything.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[jo_ham]

Just try putting Linux on a turnkey computer sold from a retailer like Best Buy or HP and then asking them for support when it breaks.

And it's not necessarily software that can damage the device. The software might be fine, but what if someone installs an app that hooks up your phone to some other hardware device, but the connection is incompatible (or the person doing it messed up when putting the cable together) and you put 50V across two sensitive pins by accident? Just as a hypothetical.

A warranty covers a device as sold and outlines use cases, and also outlines what is not covered. It's pretty standard as far as consumer goods goes.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[UnknowingFool]

Your warranty depends on terms of your purchase. Dell could argue that you voided your warranty because the PC is no longer the same OS. If you built your own it's not as big an issue. At a minimum, Dell can refuse to support your machine. After all why should Dell have to field a support call from you because your Linux network drivers don't work if they installed Win 7 on it. Same thing with Apple. Apple lets you jail break your iPhone; don't ever bring it in for support if you do. .

Re:Voiding the warranty

[UnknowingFool]

And how does the manufacturer know that your changes did not harm the hardware? They don't. That's why typically warranties are "as-is" or allow modifications only by authorized service centers. If you were the manufacturer would you support an OS that you neither allowed nor installed?

Re:Voiding the warranty

[thisnamestoolong]

I am all for tinkering, jailbreaking, hacking, and otherwise customizing my devices. I do fully understand, however, that any damage that is caused to the device in question is on me. It really is not reasonable for me to expect MS, Motorola, or Apple, for instance, to pay to fix to my phone if I overclock it too high and fry it. I do, however, take issue with them trying to prevent me from doing that to begin with -- that is totally uncalled for. I think that you ought to be able to do whatever you want with something that you own, but you should really have to take responsibility for your own actions.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[UnknowingFool]

Installing Linux doesn't void the warranty on a computer. Downloading a shady file and getting a computer virus doesn't void the warranty on a computer.

Depends on what is covered by your warranty. Installing Linux "shouldn't" void the warranty, but from the perspective of a manufacturer, why should they support an OS that they didn't install? If your manufacturer installed Windows 7, at a minimum, they may not service the computer until it is restored.

One of the main reasons is that the repair and testing process is made more difficult by an OS changes. Suppose your CD drive stops working. Obvious hardware fault right? Not always. Well you installed Linux and accidentally mapped it to /dev/hda16 instead of /dev/cdrom. If it was Windows, the manufacturer can easily test using Windows tests that it's not a software problem. Suppose that it really was completely hardware like no power to the CD drive at all. Well, the manufacturer replaces it. How do they ensure everything is working if they have limited or no knowledge of Linux. Remember the technician may not be the most computer savvy. They may only know enough to follow a flow chart.

If installing software can damage the hardware, the phones are really not well done. The worst-case scenario should be a matter of plugging in a cable and reflashing the firmware.

There are ways software can damage hardware. Most phones use flash memory storage. Flash memory has a limited number of writes ranging from 100,000 to 1,000,000. If software was mis-configured to continually write every second, the flash memory will wear out in less than a month. Or if software causes the processor to run at top speed for hours on end for no reason, that overheats the processor and could cause problem. Even if a phone is well made, they are made against a model of "average" usage and not made for extreme conditions. Also your worst-case scenario involves flashing the firmware. A bad firmware update can brick any device. The worst-case scenario is complete failure.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[dunkelfalke]

You've never heard of GSM modems, haven't you?

Re:Voiding the warranty

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

Microsoft won't provide a warranty on your new Linux install either. Now your PC provider may support Linux and your hardware warrant may still be valid, but that isn't what is being discussed. This is about Microsft's warranty on their software.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[oji-sama]

Indeed, consider N900, which I regret I didn't buy when it came out.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[LDAPMAN]

Then pay them $99 and become an iPhone developer. Then you can can run any code you like on your phone. Oh, you want it for free...how silly of me.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[drinkypoo]

Your warranty depends on terms of your purchase. Dell could argue that you voided your warranty because the PC is no longer the same OS.

No, they can not, at least not in the USA. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act prohibits it.

Apple lets you jail break your iPhone; don't ever bring it in for support if you do. .

As has been pointed out already ad nauseam, you have a legal right to warranty hardware service on your iPhone whether you have jailbroken it or not. They might reasonably refuse you software service.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[drinkypoo]

Suppose your CD drive stops working. Obvious hardware fault right? Not always. Well you installed Linux and accidentally mapped it to /dev/hda16 instead of /dev/cdrom. If it was Windows, the manufacturer can easily test using Windows tests that it's not a software problem.

This could be a real concern, but your cdrom example is not one of those times. You can test the CDROM by configuring BIOS and attempting to boot from the restoration media included with the system (or that the user had to make themselves, or that you sell them at an inflated price.) It is reasonable to require the user to have made this media only if you put a notice on the packaging (or a quick start card) instructing them to do so.

How do they ensure everything is working if they have limited or no knowledge of Linux. Remember the technician may not be the most computer savvy. They may only know enough to follow a flow chart.

Probably the best way is to have a self-test in BIOS.

A bad firmware update can brick any device.

Not if they have two distinct flash areas and use a hardware bank select to prevent a single firmware update from overwriting both, and always overwrite the older image. Most of the motherboards I have bought in the last decade have had dual BIOS.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[VJ42]

actually if you bought it from a UK retail outlet (PC World for example) and say you installed Linux instead of the provided OS they WILL tell you that your hardware warranty is no longer valid, or at least that's what they were telling people 2-3 years ago before there was some public outcry about it.

Just because that was what they were telling you doesn't make it true.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[UnknowingFool]

No, they can not, at least not in the USA. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act prohibits it.

No it does not. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act provides a framework for all warranties in the US. It covers general outlines. In the case of modifications, it says that manufacturers cannot outright void warranties based on the act of modification alone. The type of modification must be considered. Also manufacturers are expressly forbidden from tying agreements .

Suppose, I bought a new Honda and with a manufacturer's warranty and an agreement (with the dealership) of first year free oil changes. The dealer cannot void my warranty if I don't get all my oil changes from them or if you don't use genuine Honda parts during the oil changes. That kind of tying is not allowed.

However, the dealership is well within their rights not to service any part for free that they didn't install or repair. Otherwise it would have absurd consequences. Anyone could modify anything and expect the manufacturer to service it regardless of what was done. If I installed new tint, that doesn't void my warranty or nullify the oil changes. If I installed a new aftermarket fuel injection system, that voids the warranty on the engine but not the body. That could also nullify my oil change agreement.

As has been pointed out already ad nauseam, you have a legal right to warranty hardware service on your iPhone whether you have jailbroken it or not. They might reasonably refuse you software service.

As other people have said ad nauseum, warranty coverage is not absolute even under the act you mentioned above. Do you expect Dell to service your computer because it has Linux driver issues with Slackware. Heck no. Apple may service a jailbroken iPhone but most likely they will charge for service since it will not be under warranty.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[Urkki]

PCs come "jailbroken" by default. It didn't void the warranty on my PC when I installed Linux on it. Why should smartphones (which are just pocket sized computers) be any different?

Yeah, like if you fry your CPU by overclocking it or adjusting the fan RPM, on PCs it's covered by warranty. It's especially well covered in laptops, which have overheating warranty for life, because obviously laptops have more heat problems, and therefore overclocking consumers need better warranty protection.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[UnknowingFool]

This could be a real concern, but your cdrom example is not one of those times. You can test the CDROM by configuring BIOS and attempting to boot from the restoration media included with the system (or that the user had to make themselves, or that you sell them at an inflated price.) It is reasonable to require the user to have made this media only if you put a notice on the packaging (or a quick start card) instructing them to do so.

And how would the user know that? If you are modifying a computer by installing Linux, you better know what you are doing. But you never answered the real point: If a user has a problem with a machine, the manufacturer must diagnose the problem if the machine is under warranty. If the machine has been sufficiently changed, it makes it hard for them to do so (and sometimes impossible). If you put Android on an iPhone, do you expect an iPhone technician to be able to figure out what is wrong? They were trained on iOS not Android.

Probably the best way is to have a self-test in BIOS.

Not the point.

Not if they have two distinct flash areas and use a hardware bank select to prevent a single firmware update from overwriting both, and always overwrite the older image. Most of the motherboards I have bought in the last decade have had dual BIOS.

Again you miss the point. Modifying a device can be tricky. It may come with unintended consequences. The poster dismissed any concerns going to the remedy of flashing the firmware which has it's own (and ignored) risks.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[riflemann]

For the same reason that any warranty-covered device loses the protection of the warranty if you change something on it - you can't guarantee that you didn't break it yourself.

Read up on the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. This is an American law but most modern countries have laws with the same principles.

Essentially, warranties cannot be voided by modification unless the manufacturer can prove that the modification caused the fault. This is the reason why
you can install after market wiper blades and other accessories on your car without voiding the warranty. It would be outrageous for a car manufacturer
otherwise. They can only deny warranty repairs when your replacing of a component specifically contributed to that fault.

The same goes for phones - a manufacturer cannot deny a warranty repair on something like a loose screen or faulty button because you installed
an alternative OS on it. Of course, if you install something that lets you overstress a component (eg root the phone to drive an LED flash brighter than the stock OS), then they can deny the warranty on that component. But still would have to repair a loose screen, etc.

My Nexus S phone addresses this somewhat better than most. When you go through the legitimate unlock procedure, it warns that it "might" void some warranty, rather than stating that it "will".

So yeah, please stop spreading the FUD that jailbreaking/etc will void your warranty. It will NOT automatically void your warranty, and you can legitimately
argue with the manufacturer that many warranty claims are still valid.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[ChunderDownunder]

Have a network used for voice data and don't want smart phones clogging it with data?

Why on earth would they want that? There's serious money to be made on expensive data plans.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[drinkypoo]

However, the dealership is well within their rights not to service any part for free that they didn't install or repair.

That's very nice, but that's not what we're talking about. If Apple wants to show that something I did voids the warranty then they're going to have to provide the specification which I violated.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[jo_ham]

I am not saying that jailbreaking will void the warranty - read my post again carefully. I am stating that if a manufacturer offers a switch that allows you to go "off piste" that the warranty would then no longer apply in the event that something you changed caused it to break. If something else goes wrong unrelated to the changes then of course that is covered.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[thetartanavenger]

PC's come with a method of reinstalling the operating system it came with, phones don't (Although they easily (c|sh)ould). However, given the architecture and technology used in phone systems it is possible to actually brick your phone. Take the storage on most. They use flash memory with limited writes, often partitioned into sections. To get my G1 to run the latest and greatest, those partitions had to be rewritten, something which could have easily damaged the device beyond home repair with the current tools available. If I was allowed to do this without breaking the warranty the phone makers would get more warranty requests for people doing so, and they don't want to have to deal with that. Even if they could just say "You buggered your phone, not us. It's repairable but it'll cost you", it's a large amount of hassle.

The phone market is a market in transition. They're used to having complete control, and only now is the technology at a stage where doing more with your phone is becoming common. This transition takes time and until there are a majority of users doing it, with stable reliable tools and a better support industry who are expecting people to reinstall their phones, not having it void the warranty isn't really practical.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[deniable]

Instead we let Apple, Google or Microsoft programmers play with these transmitters. Two out of three make the PC OSs you're complaining about.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[UnknowingFool]

That's very nice, but that's not what we're talking about. If Apple wants to show that something I did voids the warranty then they're going to have to provide the specification which I violated.

Huh? This entire discussion is about what is considered a modification and when is it covered under warranty. Jailbreaking an iPhone can be considered a modification not covered by warranty. If you replace the engine in your new Honda with an aftermarket model, are you seriously going to argue with a Honda dealership that they need to show which line of the warranty agreement you broke? You and the dealership both know you made significant modifications and you're going to quibble over the exact provision you broke. But if you must ask the general provisions which you broke are as follows in the iPhone 3G warranty:

(e) to damage caused by operating the product outside the permitted or intended uses described by Apple; (f) to damage caused by service (including upgrades and expansions) performed by anyone who is not a representative of Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider (“AASP”); (g) to a product or part that has been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple;

Any and all 3 provision(s) could apply.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[Nerdfest]

... and I don't want to buy a Mac. But yeah, I don't think that I should have to pay $99 to install applications that Apple doesn't approve of. How about people that want to have their apps vetted pay the $99 for the added 'service' they're getting. There's more of them, maybe Steve could cut them a deal.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[shentino]

Milking said plans without getting irate customers on your existing voice plans due to bandwidth cloggage requires capital investment.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[WorBlux]

If the hardware doesn't provide some sort of serial interface by which you can load code onto a bricked phone, there's something deficient in the hardware.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[WorBlux]

People can say anything, but it doesn't make it true.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[drinkypoo]

Jailbreaking an iPhone can be considered a modification not covered by warranty.

[citation needed]

But if you must ask the general provisions which you broke are as follows in the iPhone 3G warranty:

No, you do not. How much will it take for you to get through your head that contracts do not trump law?

Re:Voiding the warranty

[drinkypoo]

Again you miss the point.

No, you miss the point. If Linux shouldn't run on their hardware then they will have to provide some specifications which Linux is violating to prove that it is at fault or the law requires them to provide warranty service, period, the fucking end.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[UnknowingFool]

If you buy a Dell that comes with Windows installed, and you install Linux on it. Then something is broken. It may be software; it may be hardware, like the CD ROM isn't working. You send it back into Dell for service. The technician notices it right away when he boots up the machine. . At this point, they can't diagnose the problem. It could be hardware but it could be software like a bad misconfiguration. Dell refuses to work on your computer until it has been restored back to Windows as within their rights. Or they'll install Windows first before proceeding. Either way they are going to charge a fee because. And you're going to argue with them that they need to provide free service regardless. That they have to show you why the modifications you did are not covered under warranty. I supposed you're the type of individual that requires the police have videotape and DNA evidence when making an arrest of an individual of theft even though the individual has possession of stolen item when arrested.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[UnknowingFool]

[citation needed]

Did you read anything I wrote at all? It cited the exact phrase of the Warranty.

No, you do not. How much will it take for you to get through your head that contracts do not trump law?

Do you not get that laws are not absolute? I said this above: The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act is a framework and describes general provisions. It does not address every scenario. In this case the act doesn't say manufacturers can void warranties based on modifications. It says manufacturers cannot void warranties based on modifications outright. If that were the case, you could modify anything under warranty and expect full service even if your modifications were significant. You ignored this point.

Again, if you replaced the engine in your Honda with an aftermarket one, would you argue with Honda that they still need to provide warranty service to it? You never answered the point.

But lets continue your point about laws being absolute. I suppose you're going to argue that the First Amendment gives you the right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater or sell government secrets to another country.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[BatGnat]

"Support" and "Warranty" are two different things.

Re:Voiding the warranty

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

You'd need to consider what can be done once dev mode is switched on.

Yes, most apps, like skinning the UI and installing a MiFi-ish router program is not likely to break the hardware in a way that running the normal reflash routines couldn't fix.

But then there's the radio unlock tools. Like any device, a phone doesn't have a single firmware. It has, at least, a 2nd one for the radio. And perhaps plenty more.
If you upload bad firmware, not all microcontrollers are as easy to work with once you're out of the hardware development board/factory. The iPhone 1.1.1 "bricking" was because the early unlocks inadvertently tweaked the code used to flash firmware.
Think about it this way, if I was an average user and used nvflash on my PC with the wrong ROM to update my video card, why should nvidia or any card manufacturer be responsible to fix it?
If I ran a BIOS update utility for my mobo, and then accidentally kicked the power cord. Why should my mobo manufacturer be responsible for fixing it?

Re:Voiding the warranty

[drinkypoo]

Again, if you replaced the engine in your Honda with an aftermarket one, would you argue with Honda that they still need to provide warranty service to it? You never answered the point.

Because it's bullshit misdirection. They would still be responsible for service to the seatbelts.

But lets continue your point about laws being absolute.

I never said that. I can almost believe you are stupid enough to have read that from what I wrote, though. Instead, I said that a EULA cannot trump the law in any case, and the law says that they can only refuse you warranty service if your replacement parts or consumables fail to meet or exceed specifications. I further said that if they want to show that my replacement software fails to meet or exceed specifications, they're going to have to provide me with those specifications. That's not strictly true, however; third-party audit provides a means for my replacement to be tested. However, I would argue that they do not have a right to hold me to secret specifications, if I am doing my best to meet them in spite of their not being published.

I hope this helps you understand what I actually said so that you can stop making things up and attributing them to me.

XBOX?

[FreakyGeeky]

Wake me up with they have the same attitude toward XBOX mods.

Re:XBOX?

[icebraining]

Do you know what a Mod is, in the context of a game? XNA lets you create new games, not mods.

And it has nothing to do with piracy.

Re:XBOX?

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

Honestly I don't as I'm not much of a gamer :-) When I think of "Mod" in the context of game consoles, I think of three things: - ability to create your own software to run on the console which is available on the Xbox (though there are restrictions) - Mod chips, etc which allow running pirated games, etc which obviously aren't permitted - Creating custom content, maps, etc within a game which is really an issue for the game itself and not the console Honestly, that is all I could think of so I must be missing something. What do you mean by mod in the context of games?

Re:XBOX?

[icebraining]

It's close to the last, but it's not necessarily within the game, and in general it's done outside the game with external tools.

It's common for modders to write custom tools which can read and edit the game's files, to add new content or even behavior.
They usually accomplush stuff which would be impossible without external tools, like 3D editors or compilers.

Mods like Counter-Strike which became the most played multiplayer games for multiple years or SA:MP which added a complete online multiplayer experience to GTA:SA can't be accomplished with current consoles.

Re:XBOX?

[sixsixtysix]

Mods...can't be accomplished with current consoles locked up by their manufacturers, much to the chagrin of certain publishers.

FTFY.
DLC shows that the hardware is certainly capable, but the corporate overlords wouldn't want free getting into their revenue stream.
just wait 10 years when pcs are just as locked up. i'm sure they'll be computers in the same sense that an ipod is a computer, but some bs laws/eula/etc will prevent you from whatever you on it.
sadly, this is the way it will probably go.

on warranties

[retrospectenlighten]

Why "obviously void the warranty"? This is silly - it's my device!

Like a general purpose computer, if the power supply breaks down during the warranty period, I expect it to be replaced under the warranty. Why are we treating smartphones differently? Worst case, fix it and put the factory software back on it. Then give it back to me working.

Re:on warranties

[mikesd81]

Look at your microwave, DVD player, or any electronic. Find that piece of tape that says "warranty void if broken" So, opening the operating system of the phone is like opening the case of an electronic device. Hell even if you open a big name computer like HP or Dell to do your own upgrade, it voids the warranty. If you chose to do something that could've and possibly did break the phone, why should the manufacture be responsible for blatant user error? Warranties cover wear and tear and DOA devices. But if you do something to break it other than normal wear and tear, why should the manufacture fix it?

Re:on warranties

[the_other_chewey]

Look at your microwave, DVD player, or any electronic. Find that piece of tape that says "warranty void if broken"

To what part of the phone's software is that tape attached?

So, opening the operating system of the phone is like opening the case of an electronic device.

There's a reason why we have different words for "hardware" and "software", you know.

Re:on warranties

[drinkypoo]

Look at your microwave, DVD player, or any electronic. Find that piece of tape that says "warranty void if broken"

That piece of tape does not have the force of law. It is there to frighten you. You have a legal right to have service performed by any qualified person, at least in the USA, without voiding your warranty. That person can be you. Replacing bad caps on a motherboard with caps which meet or exceed their specification, for example, is something you have a legal right to do without voiding the warranty as it applies to other components.

Re:on warranties

[mikesd81]

To what part of the phone's software is that tape attached?

The OS itself. You know, the component of the equation that makes the thing do what it's supposed to.

There's a reason why we have different words for "hardware" and "software", you know.

Not when it comes to phones. The software is what will be changed. You won't see someone put a chip in an Atrix to make it run on Verizon, just like you won't see anyone put a chip in the Bionic when it's released to run on AT&T networks.



Opening an electronic device case to put in a 3rd party component is no different than opening up an OS to put in 3rd party components. If you designed an OS for any device and locked it up, and someone bought the device, unlocked it and bricked it, which is like putting a 3rd party component in a device and breaking it, would you actually honor the warranty? Now be realistic in your answer. Would you actually swallow the price of taking the device back, paying a guy to reload the original OS on it, or even possibly having to replace it outright, because the guy did something to break it that wasn't by natural wear and tear or design flaw?

Re:on warranties

[mikesd81]

Look at your microwave, DVD player, or any electronic. Find that piece of tape that says "warranty void if broken"

That piece of tape does not have the force of law. It is there to frighten you. You have a legal right to have service performed by any qualified person, at least in the USA, without voiding your warranty. That person can be you. Replacing bad caps on a motherboard with caps which meet or exceed their specification, for example, is something you have a legal right to do without voiding the warranty as it applies to other components.

That piece of tape does have the force of the companies of warranty and their terms for honoring it. Just because you know how to replace bad caps on a board, doesn't mean you're qualified. Go ahead and do that, and fry it and then go back to the manufacture and say "Well I know how to do it so I did it and well oops." There's also reasons why companies have certified technician partners. Yes, you may have a legal right to do whatever, it is your property, but that doesn't mean the company has the legal right to fix your mistake.

Re:on warranties

[multipartmixed]

> Yes, you may have a legal right to do whatever, it is your property, but that doesn't
> mean the company has the legal right to fix your mistake.

The OP never claimed that you could fix a board yourself, have the repair go sour, and then expect the company to fix that.

If, OTOH, you fix caps on the board, and then something else goes wrong, which is not provably related to your repair, then the board is *still* under warranty, at least in the US.

You need to read the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975.

That is the same law that allows you to have your oil changed at your local garage, rather than your car maker's local dealership, and still have an intact warranty (unless the local garage screws up).

Re:on warranties

[mikesd81]

The OP never claimed that you could fix a board yourself, have the repair go sour, and then expect the company to fix that.

If, OTOH, you fix caps on the board, and then something else goes wrong, which is not provably related to your repair, then the board is *still* under warranty, at least in the US.

Fair enough. If the problems are not related, I'll buy that argument

That is the same law that allows you to have your oil changed at your local garage, rather than your car maker's local dealership, and still have an intact warranty (unless the local garage screws up).

So the screw up falls on the garage to fix their mistake. But if YOU change the oil and somehow put a wrench through the oil pan while taking out the plug, and you're not a licensed mechanic, it would not fall under the warranty for the manufacture to replace. A licensed mechanic would fall under a qualified technician.

Re:on warranties

[shentino]

The warranty is a contract. Break its terms, even if those terms have nothing to do with the device's operability, and you forfeit the right to have them repair it on their dime.

And contracts in a warranty situation, as with every other contract out there, are a business matter subject to economics and that funny thing we like to call bargaining power.

Re:on warranties

[BatGnat]

Hell even if you open a big name computer like HP or Dell to do your own upgrade, it voids the warranty.

Actually Most of the components in a computer are just that, components. All individually covered by separate warranties. HP can not void your warranty for upgrading a HDD. Yes they will not cover the new HDD, but the rest of the hardware is still covered.

It's a trap!

[Anonymous Coward]

In the mobile OS market, they're the underdog, so they have to play nicer right now to get people to buy their shit. Once they achieve a position of dominance, that's when they start turning the thumbscrews on you.

Remember how they used to, aside from token efforts, turn a blind eye to rampant Windows piracy, particularly in Asia? Their stance in the 90s was, they'd rather you use their stuff, even if you stole it, than use a competitor's product. After they made some good headway, most PCs no longer came with a full Windows install disc that you could share with your buddies who could easily find install keys online-- you instead got crappy "restore" discs, locked to your computer model. And then when they finally reached the level of unquestionable dominance, you got product activation.

As a side note, when they're the underdog in a particular market, they also like to partner with someone already ahead of them in that market, steal what they can to gain an advantage, and then (in most cases) destroy the partner. Poor Nokia is dead, they just don't know it yet.

Re:It's a trap!

[shentino]

And they're probably going to take Qt with them.

KDE, wake up.

strategy ...

[georgesdev]

Msoft is desperate to not totally fail in the phone market.
Msoft has just seen how kinect pc hack has created so much buzz.
Msoft Windows is reasonably open, at least more than ipod, or google chrome.

Re:strategy ...

[icebraining]

Msoft Windows is reasonably open, at least more than (..) google chrome.

Uh, both Chromes are open source, so no.

Re:strategy ...

[xtracto]

Msoft is desperate to not totally fail.

There, fixed that for you.

Re:strategy ...

[coolmadsi]

Msoft is desperate

There, fixed that for you.

There, fixed that for you.

Palm is very supportive of this...

[Anonymous Coward]

Palm (now HP, I guess) tells you how to enter "developer mode" for WebOS on their own website: http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=1639#InstallingEclipsewiththeSDK-dev_mode Developer mode on a WebOS phone is the same as jailbreaking on iOS/Android: it allows you access to the file system, a command line if you want it, and the ability to install applications from any source. There is a LOT of homebrew development for the platform, and all of it is officially supported by Palm/HP. They even recently donated a server to a homebrew dev group.

Re:Palm is very supportive of this...

[Kilrah_il]

You can read more here.

Re:Palm is very supportive of this...

[TiberiusMonkey]

Thanks for this, I LOVED WebOS on my Pre but I just couldn't handle the bad hardware. I love my Android phone but I honestly will think about a WebOS phone and tablet in about a year. So yeah, this is really good info for me, I hardly had the phone before I managed to break the slider (and then again on another before I gave up)

Re:Palm is very supportive of this...

[aitan]

Getting access to the filesystem (in user space) in Android doesn't require root access, and being able to install any application is just a matter of ticking a checkbox.
Besides that you should read this: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/12/its-not-rooting-its-openness.html

Re:Once Upon A Time ...

[ripnet]

Because the actual radio bit is a separate chip, with a separate OS, which has an API called by the main OS (using modem AT commands AFAIK).

This baseband chip usually doesn't need to be tampered with, and is it this chip that actually communicates with the network.

You can install a totally different OS (eg Android on a windows mobile device), without altering how it talks to the cell network.

I believe the exception to this is to unlock phones which are network locked - i think that involves modying the baseband, which could well be illegal in some places???

Re:Microsoft desperate

[TiberiusMonkey]

...er criminals...?

Void the Warranty?

[mercurized]

Why would a switch in software like that that void the Warranty? If you buy a PC, you can install any OS you like. The warranty that covers your PC is covering the hardware. If you buy a PC, have no clue what you are doing and end up trashing your windows installation, there is nothing your PC dealer's warranty will ever do for you. At least not for free. If the software is broken you reinstall it or get it serviced somewhere. If the hardware breaks down, you'll be heading up to your dealer for a warranty replacement. Why would a phone be that much different? I even find it ashaming and harsh to realize that most people really buy that crap of "warranty is only void if you do not touch the software", like there was any warranty on the software part at all. Imagine a PC dealership trying to enforce such harsh software usability limitations like "never ever install any other software than the one you got it with, or forget the warranty". Would that actually be possible selling stuff like that? Not here in Europe at least. Imagine a car dealership that denies you your warranty on the engine after a few weeks just because you changed the seat covers. Its nothing different. This entire "Other software voids your warranty" FUD is sparked by the providers and manufacturers that very much like to keep you trapped with them and their software, and sometimes even hold you, your device or your data hostage against yourself, pretty much neglecting the fact that you actually bought the device you are acting with, and still not wanting to give you any space to decide what you actually want to do with it. And the even worst part is, people accept it just like that. Today's Smartphones are more like small PCs than like the old brick phones that couldnt do much. Most of these newer handsets are technically able to run many different operating systems. One can customize the systems as well, far beyond the possibilities the vendor envisioned. It sometimes feels like your PC Vendor tries telling you that you cant put any background image on your windows desktop which you did not buy from him. If you however use your own images, or god beware, remove the logo of said Vendor from the starting screen of the OS that that would be a change that possibly damaged your hardware which in turn would be void then.. Think about it.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[rrossman2]

Easy.. look at some of the mixed 2.2 and 2.3 ROMs for android. They can't do a pure 2.3 for the Samsung Galaxy S using code from the Nexus S as the front facing camera runs at a higher voltage on the Nexus S, and using that "driver" on the Galaxy S destroys the front facing camera. Also, the clock speeds and voltages can vary, and if you cross (I think the limit for the Hummingbird is) 3.1v, you could overheat the CPU and cause damage. So software can and has caused hardware to break, and if it's software that you had to break things the manufacturer had put in place to keep that from happening, that can and will void the warranty. Just like if you replace lets say you do something to your motor, swap in a motor that wasn't meant to be in there and had custom motor mounts done. Lets say a mount snaps.. that causes extra stress on the front CV/half-shaft and wheel bearing. If the car was under warranty, the dealer could absolutely say "no way" because the modifications can be shown to have caused the extra damage.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

The article is about MS voiding the warranty on their software. Presumably a separate warranty would exist with the hardware provider. Now smartphone hardware providers currently tend to only support one OS (though hopefully this will change), so I'm guessing it may end up voiding their warranty as well, but that is a separate issue. The hardware issue would likely be like installing Linux on a Dell PC 10 years ago. Sure you can do it, but it wasn't officially supported by Dell so good luck calling Dell for support.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[snkiz]

I guess you've never bought a pc from Best Buy. Put Linux on it and Best Buy wont touch it. Or you've never used an ISP that uses MSN for their portal. You need windows to activate the modem or get any kind of support. It happens all the time because most consumers do not have any understanding of the technology they are purchasing. It might as well be a toaster to them, just another appliance. The longer this attitude continues the more corporations will claw away at our freedom.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[jack2000]

Hopefully the younger generations wouldn't be so dumbstruck by technology. One would hope.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[sjames]

We used to have a name for hardware that was that easily destroyed with software......

Ah, yes, we called it defective. There is a HUGE difference between twiddling a bit in a configuration register and taking a soldering iron to the board! In the inevitable car analogy, the manufacturer has to actually show that your mods caused the problem, not just say you opened the hood so it's your fault.

Are zener diodes in short supply?

Re:Void the Warranty?

[thisnamestoolong]

Hardware is not necessarily defective simply because it can easily be destroyed with software! A CPU has no way to know what clock speed it is supposed to be running at. Any fool can install a custom ROM on a smartphone with a custom kernel capable of ramping up the stock voltage beyond what the CPU is able to handle. How does that imply that the CPU was defective? Going back to your car analogy -- that is liking blaming the car because the engine seized when you tried to run it for 20,000 miles without an oil change.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[shentino]

Simple, because a warranty is a contract.

The warranty is void because the manufacturer says it is if you tamper with the software.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[sjames]

Again, yes it is! Why was it possible to run the CPU faster than it could handle? If it can only operate up to a certain speed, why can the clock be set faster? Why will the regulator even allow software to command the voltage above the maximum acceptable value?

When a part might have different constraints in different applications, you use straps set the acceptable limits for the given application. If someone cuts the straps to exceed limits, voiding the warranty is fair because they altered the hardware.

Many moons ago, the open question was "could malicious software cause hardware failure in a PC" (where PC could have been an IBM PC, a C64, Apple ][, etc). This was genuinely questioned and most positive claims turned out to be of urban legend quality. There was one known case where the video (VIC) chip in the Commodore PET could burn out, and that was widely considered an embarrassing design defect. Contests were held with substantial cash prizes awarded to anyone who could produce hardware destroying malicious code. The only winner in those contests was a guy who figured out how to step the heads in a Tallgrass 10MB external hard drive at just the right frequency to walk it off of the table (so it was destroyed hitting the ground).

And, actually it was rrossman2's car analogy.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[jedidiah]

...except you can't NOT tamper with the software.

It will be "tampered" with the first time auto update runs.

OTOH, if a Mac is still under warranty they will gladly take it in for warranty service if it has Linux on it. They won't make any gaurantees about Linux still being on there when they give it back to you, but at least they won't pull obvious nonsense.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[ieatcookies]

This is true for pc dealers that only support the hardware. This is not true for game console, iPhones, apple products where the same company will provide support and warranty for the entire package. If you want a smartphone device that only provides support and warranty on the hardware, that's fine, do that. But most consumers would rather have support for the entire damn thing, which makes it pretty fucking hard to support when people are interfering with your product. Again, I feel like there some inflated sense of entitlement. If you want to jailbreak your iPhone, sweet, do it, but don't expect apple to provide warranty or support after you've tampered with the product. You feel the product is the hardware, but in apples case it's the entire devices experience, and most consumers love that.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[dwightk]

AppleCare covers software

Re:Void the Warranty?

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

That's nonsense. CPUs have been able to tell their design clock speed to software for a long time now. Computers have been made for decades such that software cannot unsafely set voltage or clock frequency.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[shentino]

That's different.

As far as the warranty goes, who does the tampering means everything, and what's actually tampered with and how means nothing.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[drinkypoo]

The terms of a warranty contract are governed by certain laws that putting some nonsense in a EULA cannot contradict.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[IceCreamGuy]

Imagine a PC dealership trying to enforce such harsh software usability limitations like "never ever install any other software than the one you got it with, or forget the warranty"

Fair enough, but If I then imagine a car dealership saying this, it makes pretty good sense that installing custom software on my car would void its warranty. I'm not saying that cell phones are like cars, but I am saying that cell phones are different than PCs. If you brick your phone because you accidentally overwrote the bootloader, they should not be held responsible, you should. You can always say "well, you can always put the bootloader back on if you know what you're doing," but the truth is that a lot of people don't, and the manufacturer shouldn't have to shell out for their mistakes. That being said, I do feel that locking people in with certain software options is really, really crappy. You should be physically able to install whatever software you want in an ideal world.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[sjames]

I would say worse. I configured my share of Xfree86 servers in the day and remember that warning well. Of course I don't recall any actual report of such damage actually happening to anyone much less a warranty being voided. Of course these days a monitor will actually display an error message about it. As you say, it's getting trivially cheap to do things like that now.

Agreed that all's fair for pre-production hardware.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[Riceballsan]

"Imagine a PC dealership trying to enforce such harsh software usability limitations like "never ever install any other software than the one you got it with, or forget the warranty" http://consumerist.com/2009/12/geek-squad-wouldnt-honor-my-netbooks-protection-plan.html Not much imagination necessary

Re:Void the Warranty?

[R3d M3rcury]

I agree that the switch itself wouldn't necessarily void the warrantee, but it could allow you to do things with your phone that WOULD void the warrantee.

Take an iPhone as an example. I go buy a brand new iPhone and immediately jailbreak it. I then install some software that runs down the battery--it streams songs off the internet, plays them at full volume while displaying complex graphics based upon the song and my present location at full screen brightness as well as vibrating the phone in time with the music. No big deal--it's my choice. If I want to charge the phone 3 times a day, that's my choice.

9 Months later, the battery won't hold a charge. So I take my iPhone into my local Apple Store and complain that the battery died after only nine months and I want a new battery/phone for free.

Under Magnusson-Moss, Apple could legitimately claim that running that software voided the warrantee because the software drained the battery faster than normal which caused me to recharge the phone more often and lower the lifetime of the battery.

So, in theory, if you never flip that switch, you don't run the risk of voiding the warrantee. But the act of flipping the switch does not cause your warrantee to be void.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[blacklint]

Having software controlled parameters makes development easier, cheaper, and faster. Would you really like your phones to come out later and cost more because the designers had to try and protect against modified firmwares purposely pushing things out of spec? It's not like user level applications can do any of these things, which would be a real problem.

I could easily change the speed and voltage of my desktop's CPU in the motherboard's BIOS. Oh, and turn the fans off as well. I'm sure I could burn my CPU out if I pushed everything to the limit, but that would rightly void the warranty on my CPU. Are you arguing that these options should be taken out? Wouldn't that remove freedoms people have with their hardware?

Re:Void the Warranty?

[tlhIngan]

Again, yes it is! Why was it possible to run the CPU faster than it could handle? If it can only operate up to a certain speed, why can the clock be set faster? Why will the regulator even allow software to command the voltage above the maximum acceptable value?

Because they're binned? If I buy a 1.2GHz CPU that's also available in 1.0 and 1.5GHz flavors, there's a good chance I could run it at 1.5GHz and be successful. Hell, I think there's a term for this, called overclocking.

And in the embedded world, setting clocks can be very complex - some of these SoCs have very complicated clocking trees that can involve easily 10 or more clock divisors that have to be set between boundaries - the chip manufacturer has no way of knowing how to limit the values (some clocks depend on external buses - like memory clocks may be set to 133MHz, 166MHz, 100MHz, and so on), so actually designing a real clock lookup table is complex.

And some chips require you specify the PLL clock multipliers and dividers, of which there are many valid settings. The only real way to lock it out properly would involve lots of transistors dedicated to determining if the clock settings are valid for the particular operating mode, which just end up consuming power to gain very little.

And let's not forget things like software defined radios in things like bluetooth, 3G and wifi modules. Program them the wrong way and you could expose the final stages to powers and currents they were never designed for and burn out the finals. It's all software controlled in the end.

Software is driving a lot of hardware - the hardware's smart, but to be flexible a lot of functions that requires dedicated hardware have been put into software. A bug in the software can brick hardware really easily - an accidental write to one-time-programmable memory can erase vital settings (serial numbers, keys, RF calibration, etc).

Yes, you could build hardware that's immune to software bugs, but then when some dandy new feature comes out, you end up having to replace the hardware because it's locking out the software from doing those things.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[sjames]

Not really all that much. They probably save a whole nickle. I would like my phone to come out as a durable and reliable product that won't smoke itself at the slightest provocation.

I have actually hacked around with BIOS before on x86 boards. In the cases I saw, you can alter the fan speed but cannot just turn them off. If you set it too low, the CPU will throttle itself when it exceeds a temperature threshold. There exists no override for that. I have yet to see a chipset where you can do real damage. The worst case result of mis-setting registers is that you don't get initialized or you exceed a safety limit and get a hardware reset or safety shut-down.

If you muck about with your BIOS settings you can render your PC quite flaky. You might end up having to clear CMOS to restore function. Note though that the settings are right there exposed in the menu and yet you don't void your warranty by entering BIOS setup.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[sjames]

If I buy a 1.2GHz CPU that's also available in 1.0 and 1.5GHz flavors, there's a good chance I could run it at 1.5GHz and be successful. Hell, I think there's a term for this, called overclocking.

That isn't a case I was talking about. You won't let the smoke out if you overclock, though you might end up in a thermal shutdown. That's perfectly fine and is a clue that you've exceeded the max. Back off the settings and all is well again.

And in the embedded world, setting clocks can be very complex - some of these SoCs have very complicated clocking trees that can involve easily 10 or more clock divisors that have to be set between boundaries - the chip manufacturer has no way of knowing how to limit the values (some clocks depend on external buses - like memory clocks may be set to 133MHz, 166MHz, 100MHz, and so on), so actually designing a real clock lookup table is complex.

Yes, I have actually done memory init code before. Get it wrong and the RAM doesn't init correctly. Usually that means no boot for you. Sometimes it just means flaky operation. It does not mean the hardware burns out.

And let's not forget things like software defined radios in things like bluetooth, 3G and wifi modules. Program them the wrong way and you could expose the final stages to powers and currents they were never designed for and burn out the finals. It's all software controlled in the end.

Those radios do have maximum possible outputs constrained by their input voltage and current. If the final stages are speced to handle those maximum values, nobody gets hurt!

Software is driving a lot of hardware - the hardware's smart, but to be flexible a lot of functions that requires dedicated hardware have been put into software. A bug in the software can brick hardware really easily - an accidental write to one-time-programmable memory can erase vital settings (serial numbers, keys, RF calibration, etc).

Since the OTP areas are written at the factory, if I can accidentally re-write them, the hardware is necessarily defective. There's not supposed to be a such thing as two time programmable memory!

Yes, you could build hardware that's immune to software bugs, but then when some dandy new feature comes out, you end up having to replace the hardware because it's locking out the software from doing those things.

Now you've circled around. I can assure you there is no case where the ability to set a register to the "halt, catch fire" mode will allow anything useful to be done later. Any setting that I have argued should be impossible in software would be destructive if allowed. No non-destructive setting should be prevented.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[WorBlux]

The product is the hardware. That's not just the feeling, thats the reality. Various software licenses might be packaged into a device, but they sell the hardware under warranty. Warranties on hardware apply to defects in materials and workmanship, the bits in memory simply aren't relevant until proven otherwise, and even then it bits in memory can destroy hardware, that itself is a defect in materials or workmanship.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[dissy]

It definitely is possible to damage a CRT with the xfree config, as I've done it twice :)

The sound the poor thing made the first time was both so painful yet so amazing at the same time.

I guess I should have included in my last post that I too have never heard of a warranty being voided that way, but on the other hand I never bothered trying to take my monitor back after that one. It was old enough to most likely be out of warranty, plus it was clearly of my doing, not to mention the pile of other CRTs in the basement I really should have gotten rid of by that point ;)

After thinking about the floppy drive one, I just had to go Google for "Apple 2 disk drive sound simulator" just to relive those r/w head smacking sounds that used to freak out people not used to such drives. Good times for sure

Re:Void the Warranty?

[sjames]

I think the crown for scary floppy sound would have to go to the Commodore 1541 with fastload.

Thank you for your reports. I've wondered for a while if any monitor ever actually failed due to xfree config.

Re:Void the Warranty?

[rrossman2]

I remember the sounds of Flight Sim ][ for the Commodore 64 loading from when I was little. For being one 5 1/4" it took 10-15 minutes to load and that drive made some god awful sounds

Re:WP7 does have

[ZankerH]

Apple has a similar deal with iOS. Android, however, lets you load whatever the hell you want, including third party or your own apps, for free.

(Provided it wasn't locked down by your wireless provider. You should check that before buying.)

It's a trap!

[Overzeetop]

Fixed the subject line for you.

webOS has had this from the beginning

[Loudergood]

Just type either webos20090606 or upupdowndownleftrightleftrightbastart and the developer mode switch pops up on the screen. They also paid airfare and hotel for one of the top homebrew developers to come to their last major developer conference. Oh and they just sent that team a brand new HP server with no strings attached.

excellent approach

[Cyko_01]

if you don't want them to break your shit, make it so they don't NEED to break your shit. I know this is Microsoft and all, but I have to give them kudos on this move.

Re:excellent approach

[Killjoy_NL]

I'm no MS fan either (the disease or the company) but I have to agree, this is the way to handle these types of situations, Sony could learn a lot from MS.

OS Wars 2.0

[ironicsky]

Microsoft is smart. This is the same way they won the OS wars in the 90's. Apple developed a proprietary system and forced people to do it there way or no way, while Microsoft said "here is an OS that can make any system you develop better" and let people do as they wished. While Apple does allow for home brew software, it still has the same restriction as every app on the app store, unless you jailbreak of course

Re:OS Wars 2.0

[Urkki]

Windows is "open" and Mac OS is proprietary? What have you been smoking?

I think I can legally run Windows on virtual machine under MacOS. I don't think I can legally run MacOS on virtual machine under Windows. Your definition of "open" must be pretty funny if it ignores a detail like this.

void the warranty? why?

[spottedkangaroo]

My Palm WebOS phone (pre) has a maybe 0.05% market share... but it has some really interesting features. Like the ability to root the phone in a supported fashion and the existence of a repair tool to fix it when you screw it up. I'm not impressed by MS sitting down with phone 7 users. Yeah, users. Sure, they're advanced users, but they're just using their phone. I can't believe "jailbreaking" is a problem, nor that it would ever void a warranty. I wish more manufacturers did it like Palm did.

Re:Put LINUX on it!

[Killjoy_NL]

Then go to that Openmoko thing, why even comment here?
Personally I am enjoying my Android HTC Desire HD phone :)

Like Palm WebOS

[markdavis]

>"It would be great if Sony, Apple, Microsoft, and several Android phone makers would implement a simple development switch in their phones "

Inotherwords, it would be great if they did what Palm/WebOS already did years ago. With WebOS Linux phones, you just enter a code (that everyone knows) and wham, you have root. Zero hacking required. Plus, I don't think it "voids the warranty". Why would it? It is just software. I can see where maybe the carrier and manufacturer wouldn't offer operational support for a so-called "rooted" phone, but that has nothing to do with the hardware warranty.

WebOS phones can be restored to factory-defaults easily by just downloading WebOS doctor from the carrier's site. No phone should ever be designed to be "brickable". There is absolutely no excuse for that.

Google should be listening to this.... if WebOS Linux can do it successfully, certainly Android Linux can do it too.

Re:Like Palm WebOS

[Clever7Devil]

The issue is not so much in unlocking the software, I'd imagine, but the firmware. It seems reasonable to me that a hardware warranty be voided by any number of tweaks you could make with custom firmware. Overclocking comes to mind.

Re:Like Palm WebOS

[IamTheRealMike]

Google should be listening to this.... if WebOS Linux can do it successfully, certainly Android Linux can do it too.

Both the Nexus One and the Nexus S allow you to reflash the firmware without any jailbreaking required. So Google doesn't need to listen, it's already doing it. Not all phone manufacturers using Android allow this, but Google phones do.

Re:Like Palm WebOS

[markdavis]

I agree that overclocking and such could damage hardware. But instead of companies being obsessed about locking up the OS, they should simply lock the clock so the hardware can't be overclocked.

Re:Like Palm WebOS

[markdavis]

Reflashing the firmware *is* a form of jailbreaking. Why should one have to go through that just because they want to remove a forced "Bing" as their search engine, remove crapware from the phone, or change the user interface?

Yes, it is nice that the few Google-designed phones allow easier firmware replacement, but WebOS allows you to do most anything you want by giving you root without having to replace the OS. It doesn't require hacking and looking for loopholes and breaking every time there is an update like 95+% of all Android phones do. That is a much friendlier approach.

Re:Like Palm WebOS

[eqisow]

I've not research every Android phone out there and I've only owned two (a Motorola Cliq and now a T-Mobile/HTC G2), but both of those were rooted forever once rooted. I know the G2 had some problems obtaining a permanent root at first, but that was just a transient issue.

So, basically, I'm not sure 95% is even remotely accurate.

Re:Like Palm WebOS

[markdavis]

You misinterpreted my statement. 95% of Android phones are not "Google" phones, and do not encourage rooting and replacement of the firmware as a "development" phone.

I was not meaning implying it was excessively difficult or impossible to root or re-image 95% of Android phones.

WinCE has always been hacked up

[drinkypoo]

They mention it in the story but... there is a ton of information on hacking WinCE-based devices. There are tons of alternate WinCE images for HTC devices for example. To stop it now would be to lose basically every developer not selling a complete device not intended to have functionality added (i.e. GPS, or in-car entertainment. although those desperately need hacking most times)

HP's webOS

[Planesdragon]

Hah!

HP's webOS ships with a Linux-based OS and a simple, easy way to get root access on your device. In fact, they provide instructions on how to do so on their website.

And it doesn't even come close to voiding your warranty. Even if you put on custom software.

Why not have a free app store with no censorship

[Joe The Dragon]

Why not have a free app store with no censorship and no dev fees for free apps? you can just ban apps that only mess up the os or maybe just list them as unsafe apps. But no banning for things like sex or let's say a IOS app review magazine. (apple banded a android app review one)

Re:Put LINUX on it!

[Threni]

I'm enjoying my HTC Desire phone (although I wish multi touch wasn't so utterly broken on it - you should be glad you have a HD instead!)

Well .....

[DaMattster]

The Federal Court System has ruled jailbreaking to be totally legal and not a violation of the DMCA. I think Microsoft might be wise to sit down with the hackers.

Re:Why not have a free app store with no censorshi

[mikesd81]

>Why not have a free app store with no censorship and no dev fees for free apps?

Because it effects the bottom line.

Re:Why not have a free app store with no censorshi

[Cronock]

This is the reason most people jailbreak their phones to begin with. Apple would definitely make a lot of users happy if they allowed unofficial app repositories. People wouldn't be rooting their phones and compromising security, but I would get those apps I want and are not available.

Re:on warranties---something whent wrong

[mikesd81]

The OP never claimed that you could fix a board yourself, have the repair go sour, and then expect the company to fix that.

While not specifically saying so he did imply that "yourself" be lumped into a qualified person.

so you want to go jail for going to jiffy lube?

[Joe The Dragon]

so you want to go jail for going to jiffy lube? as your Car EULA say you must go to the dealer? what if they said you can only go shell for gas and all the area shells cost more then other area gas stations?

Re:Why not have a free app store with no censorshi

[jo_ham]

Right, and I should be able to force WalMart to give away my free newspaper (that I support with ads).

If I tell WalMart to stock it in their store for nothing, they can't tell me "no", nor decide not to carry it because it contains things they don't want to carry, like sex or editorials for competing stores.

That sounds exactly like the sort of "rights" that America is so proud of, yes?

Or do you mean "everyone has rights, except private store owners that I do not like, if they want to exercise a right that results in a situation I disagree with then they should be stopped!"

Reminds me of Sarah Palin talking about the Islamic community centre being built in Manhattan - "I know they have a right to do it, but should they?"

XNA

[tepples]

Are you kidding? Xbox 360 is the most open of the three major consoles. Unlike PLAYSTATION 3 and Wii, Xbox 360 officially allows individuals to develop video games using C# and the XNA library and sell them.

Re:XNA

[sixsixtysix]

cool, as long as
1. there are no development fees
2. either they allow everything in their shop or allow 3rd-party shops.



if people are willing to settle for such a closed atmosphere on one computer, they must be willing to settle for it on all computers. anything else is hypocritical bullshit.

Re:WP7 devices can be officially jalbreaked

[UnknowingFool]

That's not jail breaking. As an unlicensed but registered iOS developer you can also install anything you want to your own iPhone. Until you pay the $99 license, you simply cannot submit your app to the App store.

but WalMart is not the only store and you are not

[Joe The Dragon]

but WalMart is not the only store and you are not not locked into only shopping at walmart.

Re:but WalMart is not the only store and you are n

[jo_ham]

Irrelevant.

You are not forced to buy an iPhone - you can buy a Droid (where incidentally, Google has similar polices on its marketplace).

The fact that the App Store is the only store on the iPhone makes no difference to the rights of the people who own it.

Should the only store in a small town 100 miles from nowhere be forced to sell things it doesn't want to because it's the only store around?

Re:on warranties---something whent wrong

[multipartmixed]

It's completely irrelevant if the person performing repair work is qualified or not.

It is only relevant whether the actions taken by the person cause the failure that the company is being asked to repair.

For example, if my 8-year old changes the oil in my car, and then something goes wrong with my airbags, the car manufacturer MAY NOT deny the airbag warranty claim, even though the person changing the oil is clearly not qualified to do so.

In fact, even if the 8-year old who changes the oil re-fills the crankcase with Kool-Aid, it *still* does not void the warranty on the airbags.

In the US at least, this is black letter law.

Previous repairs, alterations, etc, are not grounds to dismiss warranty claims, unless the manufacturer is able to prove that these are the proximate cause of the failure that the claimant is asking the manufacturer to address.

Re:Piracy

[jedidiah]

> Sadly, by far the main reason why people jailbreak is to install pirate software.

This is just stupid corporate boot licker nonsense.

People want to be free to use their property as they see fit and benefit from the fact that anyone can provide 3rd party enhancements.

A jailbroken phone is no different than a PC. It can run whatever the user chooses to install on it and products can be bought from anyone.

I own my own personal property, not some corporation.

The fact that "unauthorized" developers that a platform owner doesn't approve of can create new and interesting thing is the primary value of computing devices. Suppressed liberty stifles creativity and innovation.

Ugh, jailbreaking

[Rexdude]

Nokia's recent sepukku makes me sick to the core. Instead of continuing with the transition from Symbian to Meego, they gutted any sort of developer support for it by announcing the switch to WP7.
For all the ignorant naysayers who called Symbian 'obsolete', it was just that it doesn't have a pretty UI. Jailbreaking was an alien concept on Symbian and Nokia - you never needed to worry about root access or anything because your phone was truly yours to install whatever you want.Name a jailbreak requiring feature on its American rivals and Symbian has had it unrestricted for 5 years and counting.

And to get rid of all that in favor of a half assed WP7...what the hell were they smoking? Was Nokia on the verge of bankruptcy, with Symbian sales plummeting? No,it was making money and would've had a good year or two more in the rest of the world, and a Symbian-Meego ecosystem was coming up. Ovi Store had about 4 million downloads a day and rising, Qt based apps were starting to show up. All of that is killed now, no developer would want to touch Symbian/Qt/Meego with a bargepole after this announcement.

Re:Ugh, jailbreaking

[Salvo]

Remove annoying Carrier Crapware.

Re:Ugh, jailbreaking

[Salvo]

Install a pretty UI.

Re:Ugh, jailbreaking

[Salvo]

Keep the OS updated in a non-current phone.

Re:Ugh, jailbreaking

[Rexdude]

Buy an unlocked phone - the main reason Nokia hasn't succeeded in the US is that carriers have you all by the balls and no one does anything about it. Not a problem in the rest of the world.

Re:Ugh, jailbreaking

[Rexdude]

N95 - launched 2006, last firmware update 2010. Happy?
N82 - launched 2008, ditto, 2010.
5800 XM - launched 2008, ditto 2010.

Compare with Android where different handset makers have it stuck with different levels of the OS and many are non upgradable.

Have you been sleeping under a rock?

[MemoryDragon]

The Nexus line of Android phones has exactly the proposed official switch. ADB oem unlock and your phone is open and your warranty void.

Security layers

[Salvo]

If you understand why companies implement security layers to their devices, and why people circumvent them, you'll understand why this is an interesting move.

iOS has security layers for several reasons; protection of Copyrighted material stored on the device, lock-in of devices under contract to a specific service provider and protection of the users personal data from rogue Apps. Even registered developers have to work within these restrictions.

WM7 has security layers for all the same reasons as iOS.

Android has security layers for one reason: permit Vendors and Service Providers control over the User Experience.

iOS jailbreakers crack devices to; Use contracted devices with unauthorised service providers, Install custom Apps on their own device, Install rogue Apps on someone else's device.
I assume WM7 jailbreakers will have the same reasons.

Android Jailbreakers do what they do to keep their devices up-to-date (since Vendors have very little interest in keeping the OS current - Motorola) and to remove Crapware (Sprint Nascar anyone?)

Microsoft would be protecting their own interests by allowing potential WM7 jailbreakers to Install custom Apps. They don't want to see the bad press that appears whenever someone writes a worm that only affects jailbreaked devices.

A shining light

[RichM]

Never thought I'd say this but compared to Apple, Microsoft looks like a beacon of light for freedom and understanding what their userbase really means to them.

Apple, on the other hand, say "You like the Beatles, remember to download the new albums from iTunes because we said you should. You like everything we tell you to like, OK?"

So what do you get from jailbreaking?

[Paul1969]

Does this mean you can go to more websites that don't have any apps for Win Phone 7, instead of just the default set of websites that don't have any apps for Win Phone 7?
Cool.

"these would obviously void the warranty"

[lordandmaker]

Why? Having that sort of access to the software on most other computers doesn't void the (hardware) warranty, why should it on a smartphone?

"no development fees"

[tepples]

there are no development fees

There are fees to get started with developing software on any platform. First of all, you need to buy a computer and the appropriate operating system to run the developer tools, even if you're not developing for that computer. Otherwise, define what you consider a "development fee".

Re:"no development fees"

[sixsixtysix]

i'm talking about their Creator's Club program, that one must pay into in hopes of selling it on the Xbox Live Marketplace. "most open" seems pretty closed still.
furthermore, consoles need to shed their retarded business model of relying on licensing fees. if anything, they should be paying the developers to code for their systems, not the other way around.

Re:"no development fees"

[tepples]

i'm talking about their Creator's Club program, that one must pay into in hopes of selling it on the Xbox Live Marketplace. "most open" seems pretty closed still.

It's still a heck of an improvement over Sony and Nintendo, just as the iPhone developer program (largely a copy of Creators Club) is a heck of an improvement over the BREW model that preceded it.

furthermore, consoles need to shed their retarded business model of relying on licensing fees.

Then perhaps what you need to do is join me in promoting small-form-factor PCs such as Gateway SX and Dell Zino as "the fourth console".

An app-liance that runs app-lications

[tepples]

if people are willing to settle for such a closed atmosphere on one computer, they must be willing to settle for it on all computers.

People who aren't geeks tend not to think of a smartphone or video game console as a "computer". They see it the way Apple or Microsoft markets it: as an app-liance that runs app-lications and complements a general-purpose computer instead of replacing it.