US Gov't Mistakenly Shuts Down 84,000 Sites

Chaonici writes "Last Friday, the United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS) seized ten websites accused of selling counterfeit goods or trafficking in child pornography. However, in the process, about 84,000 unrelated websites were taken offline when the government mistakenly seized the domain of a large DNS provider, FreeDNS. By now, the mistake has been corrected and most of the websites' domains again point to the sites themselves, rather than an intimidating domain seizure image. In a press release, the DHS praised themselves for taking down those ten websites, but completely failed to acknowledge their massive blunder."

Comments

Welcome to the USA

[bky1701]

Where due process only exists for the highest bidder.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

My favourite oxymoron is "American freedom".

Re:Welcome to the USA

[WrongSizeGlass]

Where due process only exists for the highest bidder.

Now come on - it wasn't that bad. Let's see ... 10 out of 84,000 ... that's not quite as good as the average baseball player but just about on par with a weather reporter. All in all I'd say they had better accuracy than we thought they would (though we all hoped for a bit more).

Re:Welcome to the USA

[Garridan]

Indeed. If I were among these 84,000 site owners, I would be talking to a lawyer about a very large libel suit.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[ugen]

Quote:
"As with previous seizures, ICE convinced a District Court judge to sign a seizure warrant, and then contacted the domain registries to point the domains in question to a server that hosts the warning message. However, somewhere in this process a mistake was made and as a result the domain of a large DNS service provider was seized."

You may not like this, but a warrant signed by a judge *is* due process.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[rwade]

Well, it's certainly process, but it's clearly not due

Re:Welcome to the USA

[sjames]

Only if they actually read and understand it, then weigh the competing interests carefully. Rubber stamping any old thing shoved under their nose doesn't cut it.

If a judge actually signed off on the 84,000 sites being grabbed, then he failed due process. If that's NOT what the warrent said then it's the FBI's failure. Either way, the domain holders WERE denied due process.

Naturally, whoever it is, I'll bet we can expect that sincere public apology to each and every individual domain holder and any of their visitors who were caused undue concern as well as a hefty settlement for the really serious libel any day now :-)

Re:Welcome to the USA

[darkpixel2k]

Quote: "As with previous seizures, ICE convinced a District Court judge to sign a seizure warrant, and then contacted the domain registries to point the domains in question to a server that hosts the warning message. However, somewhere in this process a mistake was made and as a result the domain of a large DNS service provider was seized."

You may not like this, but a warrant signed by a judge *is* due process.

Judges have to follow the law too.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The judge can't issue a warrant without probably cause supported by Oath or affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

The problem is there is no penalty for government drones that violate our rights.

For example--if I break into your house and take stuff, I go to jail. If the government breaks in illegally (without a proper warrant), they say "Oops, sorry" and continue on.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[interkin3tic]

It's big government in general. They have gotten so frickin' big the law doesn't apply to them anymore.

Big government? To clarify, you're saying that the government shutting down websites in response to child porn is a government that is too big? Because as long as governments have the power to seize websites and are tasked with using that power, mistakes are going to be made and websites are going to get mistakenly shut down, no matter what other powers or structure that government has.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[nedlohs]

No it's not. Judges sign invalid warrants on occassions, law enforcement does more than the warrant specifies on occassions, law enforcement lies in their applications for a warrant and gets it signed on occassions. All of those involve a warrant signed by a judge, but both are violations of due process.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[Aryden]

Probable Cause is listed as: "A reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. The test the court of appeals employs to determine whether probable cause existed for purposes of arrest is whether facts and circumstances within the officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. U.S. v. Puerta, 982 F.2d 1297, 1300 (9th Cir. 1992). In terms of seizure of items, probable cause merely requires that the facts available to the officer warrants a "man of reasonable caution" to conclude that certain items may be contraband or stolen property or useful as evidence of a crime. U.S. v. Dunn, 946 F.2d 615, 619 (9th Cir. 1991), cert. Denied, 112 S. Ct. 401 (1992)." src: cite

What this means is that, any issuing authority can go before a judge and explain a "reasonble suspicion" of a criminal act, under oath, and have a warrant for arrest or seizure issued by that magistrate.

You do have recourse if the government issues a warrant and your property is seized using a invalid warrant. Anything from "suppression of evidence" if you are being charged with a crime, to civil suits based on damage accrued.

Any of the 84,000 sites that were accidentally cut off, including FreeDNS' have the legal right to sue in civil court for any lost revenue and/or other damages pursuant to the civil code of the state the business is registered in.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[OneThousandOneWebs]

Indeed. If I were among these 84,000 site owners, I would be talking to a lawyer about a very large libel suit.

The United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS) should at least now make clear that all those sites were unrelated to that kind of activity. A very simple way of doing this that costs next to nothing is by publishing a list of those 84,000 domains at their own site saying they had nothing to do with it. That way, site owners could link to that page and clear their reputation.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[Sarten-X]

I'm assuming that the warrant said that mooo.com was hosting child porn, which one of its subdomains likely was. What wasn't mentioned was that mooo.com is fairly special among domains, since it also carries 84,000 completely unrelated sites. To notice that, someone would have to be familiar with FreeDNS and what it does, which is a bit much to ask of an ICE investigator. This isn't a case of due process being ignored. It's a case of due process not covering every crazy special situation that changes the case.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

If someone's JOB is to investigate things on the Internet.... If they have a months-long SPECIAL TASK FORCE to SPECIFICALLY exert extraordinary control over the DNS ROOT SYSTEM.

Did you seriously just claim "it is too much to expect" for them to understand the system they are directly targeting with international scrutiny aimed at them?

Srsly?

We're fucked!

Re:Welcome to the USA

[sjames]

For the judge, making sure he's not about to tar 84,000 innocents with the kiddie porn brush is all part of due process. That's why they get the big bucks and respect. If he can't handle that, perhaps he should go get an easier job.

Same deal for the investigators. They're supposed to be experts and supposedly did enough investigation to be quite sure of what they saw and who was responsible. It's their JOB to make sure and to know how the net works. Surely they should have investigated these issues. There's always walking a beat if investigation isn't their cup of tea.

They have just made perhaps the most inflammatory possible accusation against 84 THOUSAND people because of their carelessness. People get killed over accusations like this.

Note here that they didn't HAVE to put the accusation on that page. They could have just put "under construction" (innocent until proven guilty!) but they couldn't resist crowing about it.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[WrongSizeGlass]

I don't know about you, but where I live the weather reporters are right more than once in 8,400 days... And I think my high school's sucky baseball team managed more than 10 wins in 84,000 tries... Maybe you need to move to somewhere better...?

There's a place better than New Jersey? Do you know what it's called? Do they have a brochure or a pamphlet or something?

Re:Welcome to the USA

[ShakaUVM]

Out of curiosity, is there a penalty for lying on a warrant? If there is, how does they get away with it? If not, why not?

The EFF recently found massive abuse of the system by the FBI, but it's not exactly new news. The ATF lied about the Branch Davidians (saying they were drug runners) in order to get all that nifty heavy military equipment you saw at Waco, but they were never held accountable for their lie.

Something like this, where the government can so casually shut down free speech sites by the thousands... really concerns me. If they can just allege something on a warrant and shut down the internet, our society is less free in this regard than Egypt. They got internet access back after 5 days. Waiting for a lawsuit to resolve itself in America takes... longer.

And delays on internet sites or computer equipment is like dog years, except more so.

When a friend's 486 got seized by the FBI (not for something he did, but for information on it), he got it back in the Pentium 2 days. Great, thanks. A delay that long is the equivalent of destruction of property.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[ogl_codemonkey]

There's a place better than New Jersey? Do you know what it's called? Do they have a brochure or a pamphlet or something?

Just had a look on Google Maps - looks like your best bet would be Montreal; and you can drive there in a little under 8 hours.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[tnk1]

Judges are generally limited to their knowledge of the law, their personal knowledge of the technology (usually limited), and what the investigators tell them. Since there is no adversarial arrangement for warrants, there is no other input into the request.

Basically, what happened was a technical mistake. That domain was related to the case, the problem was that it needed to be treated differently for technical reasons. It would be nice if the judge knew that and could correct the investigators, but that's not really his job. The investigators made a statement that they had probable cause to believe the sites broke the law, they stated their evidence and according to the law, the judge issued a warrant. The investigators were not lying, they were just sloppy in that they failed to take into account the innocent sites that would be affected.

Mind you, that does not preclude people from suing over this, and it certainly does not preclude the judge from getting onery with DHS the next time it makes a similar request, but its not a case of the judges ignoring the law. Any legal system relies on investigators to provide information, it rarely has its own resources to provide knowledge on a case and most of the time, non-law enforcement experts are provided by the opposing sides in a case and are paid on that dime.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[mwvdlee]

It's the freedom of the American government to do whatever their citizens don't want them to do.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[mwvdlee]

DHS should personally contact those 84,000 falsely accused and convicted site owners and offer them all the assistance they need in getting back their visitors.
Minimally this should include a choice of banners/texts/links these sites could display, linking to DHS site explaining the fuckup and making clear the linking site is not offending. If SSL certifications are needed to make this linking trustworthy, DHS should provide these free of charge to any sites victimised. They should provide such explaination in any language used by the victim sites. They should provide a free international phone line which visitors could call to get the same apologies and explaination in all the same languages. And most importantly, they should do a public advertising campaign and press releases making sure every potential visitor (nationally and internationally) is aware that when they encountered a site with the DHS banner, there's a 99.99% (I did the math) chance the site was innocent and falsely accused and convicted by DHS.

Ideally, afterwards DHS should realize they instill fear and terror into the US citizens far more than the terrorists they combat and disband themselves.

I don't expect any of the above to happen.

Re:Welcome to the USA

[Thing 1]

DHS should be disbanded.

ORLY?

[roman_mir]

Was it really done mistakenly?

Or was it a test of how to shut down large parts of the Internet in case Egypt style revolution starts in USA and the government needs to shut down flow of the information?

Re:ORLY?

[VanGarrett]

That would be a tremendously ineffective way of locking down the internet. Seizure of DNS server domains will prevent domain names from being resolved, but if the IP address is known, then the site can still be reached. Furthermore, certain types of gateway DNS servers cache domains that have been looked up, so a great deal of Facebook users sitting in their offices may not even notice for a while.

This raises an interesting question...

[Senes]

How many people now have friends or family thinking they're pedophiles because of this little 'oops' from the government?

Re:This raises an interesting question...

[betterunixthanunix]

The followup question is more important: how many people will be willing to believe that it was all a mistake, as opposed to simply assuming that if the government calls someone a pedophile that person should be treated like the devil incarnate? People who are accused of anything related to child pornography can find their reputations tarnished years later, even if they are acquitted or if the charges are dropped. No rational thought it applied once the magic words are spoken.

Can...

[Haedrian]

These people sue the government for loss of access and libel?

Or is it just one of those oopsie moments which will never be resolved?

Re:Can...

[zill]

Unfortunately the federal government has sovereign immunity in cases like this.

Re:Can...

[Pseudonym Authority]

Governments (in the US) have sovereign immunity, so you can only sue them if they choose to let you.

Why ICE/Homeland Security

[Ksevio]

Can someone remind me again why this falls under the jurisdiction of ICE/Homeland Security?

Are child pornographers planning on invading the US or something?

Re:Why ICE/Homeland Security

[ScentCone]

What the fuck does counterfeit goods and child porn have to do with the DHS?

ICE is a part of DHS. You do understand what the "C" stands for, right? Right?

Re:Why ICE/Homeland Security

[ScentCone]

People who smuggle in and fraudulently sell counterfeit goods are exactly their area of authority. It's true if the scammers sell the goods out the back of a van, and it's true if they sell them using an ad in the back of a magazine, and it's true if they use a web site. Siezing the web site isn't any different than siezing the warehouse where they stack up the counterfeit goods.

The child porn stuff is also their turf if those "services" are being sold from over the border. And of course, most of those operations are based overseas, taking credit cards from domestic (US) customers. If the sites are registered within reach of US law enforcement, those registrations are fair game, just like the warehouse full of fake Nike products.

Re:Why ICE/Homeland Security

[mosb1000]

Because a lot of human trafficking and counterfeiting happens across our nation's borders. Actually, that's the best way to do it because it hampers local law enforcement. For human trafficking it's the best way because it puts people into a strange environment where they will not know how to ask for help. Especially if they are illegal immigrants, which is usually the case.

This seizure it totally unacceptable, but it's well within the scope of their operation to try something like this. Who else would do it?

Shotgun approach

[Local ID10T]

"Tis far nobler that 84,000 innocent websites be taken down than 10 potential violators go free..."

er wait, that's not the quote... oh well too late for your site!

Yet another eason

[geekoid]

tog et rid of DHS. It's a stupid extra layer of management put there by someone who thinks problems are fixed with more management.

defund them, give the funds to the agencies them selves.
DHS has done nothing but blunder everything it touches.

With every agency I an think of, I can list a HUGE number of success to a very tiny number of failures, but not DHS.

Twads.

Gov't Blunder News Spreads Like Wild Fire

[eepok]

... so come out with it immediately, fess up, apologize, and make a vocal effort to prevent such an error from being made in the future... AND THEN brag about your success.

Always admit your failures and shortcomings first that way it doesn't look like you're hiding them. This is A+, #1 advice for PR in the digital world.

and it's free!

Re:Gov't Blunder News Spreads Like Wild Fire

[artor3]

You call that good advice? If you want effective PR in today's world, NEVER admit you were wrong. No matter how much evidence, no matter how obvious your blunder. Just lie with every breath, and people will believe it. Just look at the birthers, the young-earth creationists, the trickle-down economists, the anti-vaccination crowd, etc... It doesn't matter how obviously wrong you are -- as long as you never blink, you'll maintain your core crowd of supporters, because they don't want to admit to themselves that they were wrong to trust you. But the moment you express self-doubt, the moment you acknowledge facts, you shatter your supporters' self-imposed delusion.

If the government says, "Our bad, we acted hastily and screwed up", then people will want to know what they'll do to prevent it next time. But if the government pretends everything is A-OK, then people will go along with it, because they know they're against child porn, and they don't want it to be any more complicated than that.

Is anyone else disturbed?

[Antisyzygy]

Is anyone else disturbed that the Department of Homeland Security can take down websites? Isn't that outside of their scope? They are supposed to protect us from outside threats like terrorism or attack, not child porn. Thats FBI territory I would think.

Redirect?

[pokyo]

So what is the point of redirecting to that fear mongering image? Is it to educate people who happen to not know that child pornography is bad? This blunder wouldn't have been nearly as damaging to innocent people if it was just their site being unreachable, but no, instead they are openly accused of being pedophiles.

presume victimhood

[Anonymous Coward]

After this, I figure the only safe assumption when I see someone accused of child molestation or possessing kiddie porn, is that they are innocent.

Re:presume victimhood

[amolapacificapaloma]

Well, that assumption should be made for every accusation. Everybody should be considered innocent until *proven* guilty. Failing to do so gets us to the actual situation where even the suggestion that someone is related to any of that shit can ruin his life.

Pres can't fix Bush/Chertoff/Ridge mistake immed.

[rwade]

Oh so a President can change the way the entire government works overnight? Let's not forget who set up Homeland Security in the first place...

Re:Let's just forget

[mywhitewolf]

and since when was it ok for the government to put a sign on a front door of a shop saying "closed due to pedophile investigation"

Hey, it works in Afghanistan

[straponego]

If we have to punish 8400 innocents to get just one alleged criminal, it's all worthwhile. You don't agree? Why are you supporting child molesters (terrorists)?

I mean, what's the alternative, go through the courts? Some of those bastard judges like to see evidence!

Re:Let's just forget

[c0lo]

...the fact that they've done damage to all those websites of businesses...im sure potential customers aren't at all put off seeing that domain seizure image.

If you're running your business' web presence through freeDNS, you have bigger issues than this my friend.

Come again? Care to elaborate? I might be dense today, I can't imagine what issues an organisation may have, issue bigger than to be falsely painted as a child abuser in public?

Any NGO which is happy to save every dime in costs and use that dime for the goals of the NGO has suddenly "bigger issues", eh? Yes, I can see they do have issues, except that the issue is not caused by them, but by incompetence...

What's scarier: the issue was caused by the active incompetence of those in power.
Even more, this also reveals there are not enough checks in the system to prevent such actions, no matter the cause/intent: incompetence, malice or corruption.

Re:that is what I was thinking

[Kvasio]

I'd rather use free dns from a few different providers (so having multiple secondary DNSs). I use one from my registrar, https://freedns.42.pl/ and http://xname.org/

Re:Admitting Fault?

[c0lo]

Where the fuck do I live again?

In the "land of the home and free of the brave".

Oops!

[presspass]

Nice to know there's an online version of "Sorry 'bout shooting your dog/son/daughter, we got the wrong house".

Then again, I don't remember any apologies in real life.

--
pass

Re:Let's just forget

[sgbett]

I'm somewhat confused by that remark. Having been a user of the service for at least the last 7 years or so (http://web.archive.org/web/20040605003827/http://www.bettison.org/)

The service has been so consistently good that I signed up to the paid service some years back, which yes runs my business' web presence (the DNS part of it at least).

There are some stats are right there on the front page at http://freedns.afraid.org/ . With 880 subscribers paying between $5 and $50 a month they turn over somewhere between $50 and $500k a year.

Whilst that may not be an enormous amount of cash, the fact that it has grown organically from an essentially free service back in the day demonstrates that this is a serious outfit.

If they were no good, then I doubt they would have ended up being around for so long, or that they would be serving around 200 million queries a day.

I realise it was probably just a throwaway remark, but feel its only fair to give credit where credit is due.

WHOAH Nelly

[TiggertheMad]

I was reading the comments and it just hit me: everyone commenting is missing the elephant in the room. Yeah sure, there is some problem with the process making sure the correct sites are taken down, but WHAT THE FUCK IS DHS DOING CHASING CHILD PORN PEDDLERS?

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the FBI's jurisdiction? I was working under some sort of obviously fucked up thinking that DHS was protecting us from, oh I don't know, ....FUCKING TERRORISTS. You know, the guys with bombs and anthrax who want to kill us in droves. Does DHS have so much free time on their hands that they are chasing common criminals to kill time? (Rhetoric, I think this question has sort of answered itself..)

If any DHS personel happens to be reading this, please pass this on to the people running your little knitting bee: Hey DHS, you fucking nazi retards....FOCUS ON THE GUYS WITH THE ASSAULT RIFLES WHO WANT TO BUY DIRTY BOMBS.

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[Artifakt]

There was a point last year when the total number of DHS warrented searches (you know, the ones where an actual judge goes through all those silly processes from the constitution), had been aimed at 6 actual suspected terrorists and over 5,000 suspected drug dealers since the program started. Homeland security was never about actually stopping terrorists, it's always been about how all the money we spend openly on the war against drugs isn't producing results, so lets covertly spend even more and see if that helps. Why do you think there's all those efforts to track money flow in the program, all the requirements to show current ID to take out a loan and such? . it's hard to actually catch terrorists by tracking any spending except possibly that aimed at actual bomb components, chemicals, and maybe biological support. No one is going to figure out a plot from tracking a terrorist renting a car or opening a regular checking account. But drug dealers need to do a LOT of money laundering. .

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[billcopc]

PROTIP: If you want to be safe from terrorists, the DHS can't help you. Not unless its mandate is immediately changed to "removing troops from hostile soil and ending all military and trade-based international extortion schemes".

But that would be unamerican, right ? God forbid your government would let people be.

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[billcopc]

Nah... DHS just ran out of people to falsely accuse of terrorism, so they've now set their sights on far more easily prosecuted targets. Just calling someone a pedophile, without evidence, is enough to ruin someone's reputation forever, if not get them killed outright from vigilante mobs.

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[rahvin112]

Child Pornography is the official jurisdiction of Customs Enforcement when it's interstate/international. So yes you are very wrong. It's never been "assigned" to the FBI. Obviously inside a state it's the jurisdiction of local law enforcement although Customs usually will provide assistance.

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[CrimsonAvenger]

WHAT THE FUCK IS DHS DOING CHASING CHILD PORN PEDDLERS?

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the FBI's jurisdiction?

DHS isn't really a stand-alone agency like FBI or CIA. It actually exists to cut through the redtape associated with interagency movement of intelligence and such.

and the FBI is one of the agencies wired into DHS that way.

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[ShakaUVM]

Yeah, no kidding! It was all of our troops on foreign soil that caused 9/11.

Those Al Qaeda blokes were really chuffed about our lads in Germany and South Korea.

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[X86Daddy]

You know, the guys with bombs and anthrax who want to kill us in droves.

Fun Fact!
Although the anthrax mailings were played up in the media as a possible example of Hussein's use of WMDs in the lead-up to Iraq-super-fun-time, they were actually sent out by a US Federal Government scientist, from stock held at a US Government lab. When the "investigation" closed in on this bio-medical researcher, he suffered a misfortune: It was reported that he commited suicide by overdosing on acetaminophen. The drug where an overdose causes a slow, painful liver-failure death. So everyone packed up the "investigation" and went home.

Look it up; I'm not exaggerating, lying, or joking.

Those guys you refer to, with bombs and anthrax... they're closer than you think, they don't yell "Allahu Ackbar," and you're required to sign their paycheck every April 15th.

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[hairyfeet]

Actually they were pissed about their heads getting cracked by Saudi guns with "Made in the USA" stamped on it, but don't let that stop a good rant.

You know, I hate to say it, and this is probably the ONLY time this will EVER be true, but I actually have to go with Glenn Beck on this one: He said "Look at our history in the middle east, for all our talk of freedom and democracy we have propped up one monster after another. The Shah, the trouble in Egypt, all because we pay billion of dollars to truly evil scum. So it is time for us to be Switzerland. it is time for us to walk away and let them sort it out for themselves. Because all we are doing is wasting money we don't have propping up monsters that foster ever more hatred towards us."

And you know what? he is 100% correct. We have propped up one "el presidente" after another because he kisses the right corporate ass and have bred legions of peasants that would be happy to slaughter every single one of us, and for what? So some multinational can get cheaper bananas? Fuck them, it is time to be Switzerland. Hell we don't have the money in the first place, and the last century has shown NOT A SINGLE SUCCESS and a whole host of failures, one dictator after another after another. Why the hell shouldn't they hate us when the boot stomping their face and kicking in their door has the American flag on it?

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[tompaulco]

Then they should spread the rumor that Osama Bin Ladin is a pedophile and be done with it.

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[billstewart]

According to a report by ABC News, the National Academy of Science just released a report saying he may not have actually done it.. That's after the Feds had accused a previous scientist who didn't cooperatively kill himself.

Also, Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi, codenamed "Curveball", admits he made up the WMD story so Bush would attack Saddam Hussein, and says he'd do that again (in spite of how well it worked out for everybody..)

Bad enough that I have to watch The Comedy Channel to get TV news, but now I have to read FARK to get the updated stories on the causes of the Iraq war.

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[MichaelSmith]

Switzerland would survive without middle eastern oil. The US might not.

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[hairyfeet]

Did the world not exist before the United States? Did the whole planet just run around drooling and bashing each other with clubs until we came along? Well if the answer is no what gives us the right to tell the rest of the world how to live, especially when we are torturing and doing evil nasty shit just like the bad guys?

And as for Israel, that too is none of our damned business. i live next to a conservative Christian college, where actual heads of state as well as mover and shakers come to lecture, and I've actually got to talk to a few on the subject. Ready to piss your pants in fear? You know what a very real and large portion of our middle east policy and attitude with/to Israel is based on? Ready for this? Jesus won't come back. i'm serious as fucking cancer, these people are basing our middle east policies on whether a guy that died 2000+ years ago has a place to park his fluffy cloud. No shit, I swear.

Now considering we have been fucking with everyone else for damned near a century, and pretty much constantly since WWII (in fact we haven't gone a whole 5 years without a war...errr..."police action" since) and have done nothing but cause trouble while enriching the pockets of a handful at the top I say....why not try something else?

We've been down this road for a century and it is obvious to anyone with eyes it isn't working, it is like the drug war only with worse body counts and even nastier human rights abuses. So why not listen to Beck and be Switzerland? You don't think the people of Egypt wouldn't have been better off had we STFU and stayed out? Or Iran?

To quote the late liar LBJ "We shouldn't be sending American boys to do what (insert name of county's boys) should be doing" and damn it he was right. We are NO better off and are doing nothing but creating the next generation of terrorists by pumping up dictators, while at the same time crushing our own children and destroying their future by piling on the debt for all these foreign thugs and the ever larger military required to "be the world's policeman" which frankly most of the world would rather we just stay the hell at home. So it is time for a change, it is time to "Be Switzerland". And if Ron Paul or anybody else wants to be president? Run on that platform. We The People are getting sick and tired of paying to support thugs and would prefer our boys home. It is time to be Switzerland!

Re:WHOAH Nelly

[Opportunist]

The term "terrorist" has gotten a broader meaning now. Meaning pretty much "anyone that we don't like or that pesters us".

In Austria, there is currently a huge trial underway where a bunch of animal rights activists got slapped by the "terrorist paragraph" (mostly for picketing a big fur coat store with an owner that got pretty good political connections) because... dammit, they broke no other law, must be terrorists, they're the only ones sneaky enough for something like that.

So don't worry, the US is not alone in the strive to abuse "terrorism" as a cover to go after "unwanted people". It's like repeating the 50s, McCarthy and Communism.

Answer to what is ICE.

[sys_mast]

US Federal Agency

ICE's primary mission is to promote homeland security and public safety through the criminal and civil enforcement of federal laws governing border control, customs, trade, and immigration

Four key priorities for the agency's future:
Prevent terrorism and enhance security
Protect the borders against illicit trade, travel and finance
Protect the borders through smart and tough interior immigration enforcement
Construct an efficient, effective agency

20,000 Employees

Over $5.7 Billion annual budget

take a peak in the about us section: http://www.ice.gov/about/overview/

Trial run

[P. Legba]

This shouldn't even be POSSIBLE by mistake. They should need a court order for each one.

Oops, wrong domain.

[SeNtM]

They meant to shut down FreePNS.

Better to be safe,

[evil_aar0n]

than sorry. Take 'em all down - let God sort 'em out.

Is it just me?

[JustNiz]

Is it just me or doesn't anyone else wonder what the hell is a department set up to fight terrorism is doing spending taxpayers money to defend the interests of big corporations?

WRONG

[SmallFurryCreature]

You are summing up BAD PR. Yes, that is the most common form of PR but it is NOT good or effective PR.

The most simple example is with trains. Delays are pretty much inevitable on a complex network but trying to "hide" this does not work. The public can SEE the errors. If they find them out before you inform them they just get frustrated and feel cheated. So, if a train is running late. Announce it and announce it BEFORE everyone at the station can SEE it is running late. Train coming in at 10:30 getting a update at 10:35 that is late will is NOT good PR.

Admit you screwed up early and you are INFORMING people AND can THEN avoid the extra damage by people imagining the worsed.

But effective PR is costly and takes a lot of effort. You have to be constantly on your toes to make sure YOU are the one pointing out your own mistakes and not somebody else. BUT by YOU being the one pointing it out you at least seem somewhat in control and can limit the random speculation.

The dutch railways didn't use to say what caused delays, now they do. Nobody can fault the train service for a suicide jumper even if it causes hours delay. So people are NOT upset. Strange but true. INFORMED people are far less angry.

Sadly BAD PR has controlled society for so long we are now thinking it is NORMAL for PR to say "no comment". That is not what PR is supposed to be about. It is to INFORM the press of what is going on so the rest of the business can focuss on its own task. It is NOT to be a blackhole for communication.