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Police Chief Teaches Parents To Keylog Kids
Hugh Pickens writes writes "LiveScience reports that James Batelli, the police chief of Mahwah, NJ, and his detectives conduct seminars that teach parents how to outfit a computer with keystroke logging software, giving them access to the full spectrum of their kids' online activities. Batelli explains that kids put themselves in potentially dangerous situations online every day, especially on Facebook, where they run the risk of coming into contact with child predators who troll the social networking site. 'When it comes down to safety and welfare of your child, I don't think any parent would sacrifice anything to make sure nothing happens to their children,' he says."
I don't think any parent would sacrifice anything to make sure nothing happens to their children
If you are so out of touch with what your kid does online that you need this.. then you forgot to sacrifice something somewhere along the way.
No, you can't watch your kids all the time .. and at a certain age you can't just say "internet only when I'm around" either.
You can however educate your child on the risks out there, and have a good understanding of your childs judgment is.
They will sacrifice all the dignity, freedom, and independence that child once had.
There is no -1 Disagree.
And then he arrests them all when pictures of said kids pop up on the computer. Easy felony busts to fluff up a record.
'When it comes down to safety and welfare of your child, I don't think any parent would sacrifice anything to make sure nothing happens to their children,' he says."
First off, shouldn't that say that he DOES think that any parent would sacrifice anything blah blah? Second, the parents don't actually sacrifice anything themselves, what they do is violate their child's privacy, which doesn't affect themselves in any way.
The age when you cannot say "internet only when I'm around" - 10-12 yrs I guess
The age when the children start maintaining the computers themselves, taking basic precautions against malware,etc -- 12-14 (and then they find out about the parent installed keylogger)
Would you really want your kids not to trust you after the age of 14?
Anybody who knows anything about the Internet and Reality knows that the child predator myth is the creation of law enforcement and other agencies wishing to profit.
Everybody who knows anything about child abuse knows that the vast majority of abuse happens in the home.
So when a child is on the computer explaining to their friends how they are sexually, physically, or psychologically abused at home by their care givers, then their care givers will be one of the first people to find out what their children are saying about them in supposedly private conversations.
These activities are an indictment to responsible parenting, and responsible policing (if there is such a thing, and stories like this always seem to validate my doubts).
I don't so much have a problem with the privacy issue. Up to a certain age, I think a parent should supervise what their child is doing online.
More the method.
This seems like a half-ass solution to a problem arising from the sadly typical "both parents work, no one actually raises their own kids any more" society we have now. No, you can't monitor your kids all the time.. and there is an age between the "computer in the living room, only when I'm around" age and the "computer in your bedroom.. I trust you" age.. but this seems like a really bad solution for something that _should_ be solved by actual parenting.
That was one of the creepiest fucking things I've ever read. Even if that's exactly what parents want, why on Earth should society support it? Living through your children is not psychologically healthy -- not for you, and certainly not for your children. They're not little mini-you's. They share some genetics with you, they'll obviously share a bit of you based on their upbringing, but they are not you.
If you want to argue you're protecting them... fine. It's a stupid argument and a terrible approach, but at least I can respect the goal. Suggesting you want to keylog your child's computer so you can spy on everything they do and make sure they turn out to be like you in every way instead of just "some ways"... is fucking creepy. There's no other way to put it.
Talk to your kids.
Make sure there's an open environment at home where the parents take an interest in the kids and talk about what they've been up to and what they're going to do.
This will (statistically) make the kids want to share what happens in their life, which in turn will make them not do stupid things they'd have to hide.
Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
Living through your children is not psychologically healthy -- not for you, and certainly not for your children.
Living through your children is the very reason for having your own children, by definition: it's what you do when you pass on your genes. If your interest was merely to pass on love and support and promote independence, but you weren't interested in creating a variant of a miniature you, you'd choose to adopt.
I like the way the Boy Scouts handle this sort of risk. Far better to be prepared for problems and to know what to do in a dicey situation, rather than try to insulate oneself from all harm (which cannot be done, in any event.) I didn't find it very hard hard to teach my kids how to be safe on the Internet. I would not put a blanket prohibition on keylogging, however. If a child deliberately lies about his online activities, is actively seeking out bad things on the Internet, and has been caught in the act more than once, then monitoring is called for. Then, it's really more about the lying than it is about the Internet.
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
Happy with your successful first post!
We're a generation bringing in the first generation born into Facebook, Google, Wikipedia, etc.. I can only assume that on Slashdot our kids will be curious of what their parents do online at an early age, and very quickly figure out what they can do online too.
It's a little scary to give kids that kind of access to information, but I'm excited by the challenge. I fully intend to have them on my lap in front of the PC at an early age (among other less stationary activities), and when their old enough introduce them to online media, it's power, and teach/learn along the way.
Until they're teens of course, then that sh*t gets locked-up after sundown :). j/k... maybe...
-Matt
--- Need web hosting?
It is east to always justify things like this in the name of protection and safety. It is the motherhood and apple-pie argument which Americans use to defend all of their actions.
Sadly, it is not a substitute for taking care of your children. Explain things to them, teach and guide by example. Make them aware of what they can stumble into and how to get out. Handled correctly and with educated children, you don't need nanny filters, porn filters, or key-loggers. With 3 children connected to the internet since their early to mid teens, two of whom are now in their early 20's, I have actually practiced this method and it works. Show some respect and guidance, you might be surprised to discover that you get the same in return. Children are a reflection on their parents, so kids who grow up with nanny filters and snooping software, think it is normal and won't have any issue in seeing it used elsewhere for any reason whatsoever.
If we teach our kids not to trust random people online in the same as we teach our kids not to trust random people in the real world, online pedophiles wont be a problem.
Kids should be taught that the "Captain Turbo" in that chatroom they like to chat in is not to be trusted in the same way as someone strange who walks up to them in the street.
"It is better, and easier, to try to worldproof your children than to try to childproof the world."
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
There will be many, many kids who will never, ever trust their parents again.
Damn straight I log what my kids do online, but I never admit it or tell them about it. We were all young once and we all made poor decisions. It is part of growing up.
I also block content at the proxy server and act really dumb when certain websites don't work at our house from the family PC. "I don't know, did you get a virus or a rootkit somewhere?" is my standard answer. It works on my PC.
Someday they will learn about transparent proxies ... maybe. Until they do, they are "Lusers" and don't need to know anything about our home network security, just like the users inside my company don't need to know. Google and results for proxy are not blocked.
BTW, I learned this from my excellent parents. They knew I was smoking pot and drinking as a teen. They said nothing, but after a bottle of JD disappeared from my room, we entered the "don't ask, don't tell" parent-interaction-method. About 10 yrs ago, Mom admitted to everything - she was pissed about the pot, but her and Dad decided it was a "phase" and to leave me alone if it didn't impact any other part of my life - which it didn't. I was in sports, held a job, got ok grades (As and Bs) and didn't get into trouble anywhere.
Talking with your kids is a good thing too.
Trust, but verify - just like in the business world.
We didn't limit our daughter's online activities - but the computer she used was out in our living room. We explained to her why we felt it mattered, and also explained that it wasn't so much distrust of her as it was concern about a small minority of online denizens she might run into. We didn't spend time looking over her shoulder, but we would on occasion ask her what she was doing at the moment and who she was talking with. And no, we didn't really check - we took her word for it.
You may or may not agree with this, but really the bottom line is this - be honest with your kids. If you're sneaking around behind their backs, don't be surprised if they turn around and do the same thing to you. If you want them to respect you, show that you respect them. Sure, it's not an equal partnership and you certainly need to look out for them, but the goal of raising them right is you should be able to trust them to do the right thing most of the time.
#DeleteChrome
The parents have already set the ground rules (that privacy and respect mean nothing) so the kids are only learning fromthat example - oh, and the example from law-enforcement.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Living through your children is the very reason for having your own children, by definition:
Whose definition? Yours?
it's what you do when you pass on your genes.
Genes don't determine every single aspect of one's behavior. Most of it is learned. However, just because that is what is biologically happening, that absolutely does not mean that the parents are actively and mentally trying to live through their child. They may just like children. They may want them to grow up in their own way. It depends entirely on the person, and there is no absolute truth to this matter as you attempted to let on.
If your interest was merely to pass on love and support and promote independence, but you weren't interested in creating a variant of a miniature you, you'd choose to adopt.
As I said above, genes don't entirely determine a person's behavior. I really do believe that people should adopt (not that you can't indoctrinate an adopted child), but to say that all biological parents are attempting to live through their children is quite the generalization.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
We have sufficient technology to maintain a population of constant size in comfort with reduced working hours. It just requires us not to continually consume more and to prevent hoarding. But then who can feel like they're a master of the universe?
Today's lesson is parents keylogging kids with the aid of the police. How long will it be before the computer savvy among the kids keylog their parents or teachers? Kids learn things quickly. Teach them that spying and dishonesty is the way to treat people and they'll learn the lesson and apply it.
A bunch of childless geeks and fringe case parents who only want their children to be like them in some ways can whine all they want, but this is what parents want. It's as inevitable as human nature.
Most parents don't actually want their child to be how they are. They actually want that child to be like how they think they are. For example, most dads may condemn their child for looking at porn on the Internet, but do so themselves. They might not demonstrate trust and put a keylogger on the child's computer, but they'd be pretty freaked if the child showed the same lack of trust and put a keylogger on their computer and spied on them.
Parents keylogging their children like this are probably hypocrites as they would not want their child to behave in the same way. But children seldom turn out how their parents want them to be and more often how their parents are. The best way to teach a child a behaviour is to behave that way yourself.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Really? Some people keep talking about how kids today are so good with technology, but that's not necessarily true in my experience. Most of them merely know how to access their Facebook accounts, use a proxy, and point and click. That's pretty much it. They don't know the details about anything. They might know slightly more than their parents, but that isn't saying much. Most people just seem to be technologically illiterate.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
> But since they did, it means they want to keep an eye on their kid to make sure they turn out as they wish
My brother is one of those fat, old "the ends justify the means" right wingers. He felt it was okay spying on his kids because the ends justified it. What he didn't know was that my nieces and nephews were way ahead of him. I got a clue when they started asking me about running Ubuntu from a live CD and various ways someone might spy on a cell phone. It got to the point they were running "wild weasel" missions to cover one another. I don't think my brother knows to this day.
I mark the time we started going downhill as a country as the day those BABY ON BOARD stickers started showing up on cars. The dawn of the overprotective helicopter parents. After that it was locker and backpack searches, drug tests, fences, badges and metal detectors. On the way to the golf course a bunch of us drove past what I thought it was a minimum security prison. One of the other guys corrected me that it was a school. When we raise our children like prisoners, how do we expect them to behave as adults?
Classes like the one the police chief is teaching do little more than highlight the extent of decay our society has experienced the last 40 years.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
A group of detectives just talked adults into voluntarily installing keyloggers on their own computer.
It's like a cop's wet dream, a city full of computers with keyloggers already installed on them. All they needed was a little it's-for-the-children.
"Your children need to learn how to avoid potentially dangerous situations on a computer.
Here.
Install this keylogger."
Did the detectives have to practice keeping a straight face during the seminars?
I still don't understand why people feel that they must have children.
Because all the people who didn't have a slightly irrational drive to reproduce died without descendants. Evolution in action.
I know how I will raise my children: they will not get a smartphone, because I am not going to hand a $300 cell phone to a child. When my children get their first jobs, even if it is just walking around the neighborhood mowing lawns, they can save their money and buy their own smartphones if they want.
Palm trees and 8
It never ceases to amaze me how many apparently well educated people ( I am assuming of course that most people on /. are well educated either formally or informally ) just don't get it.
There is a razor fine line a parent walks between giving a child the freedom to express themselves and explore and grow and protecting both the child and themselves from some of the very ugly bits of reality in this world.
Could Have, Should Have, Would Have if only I had known
How many times have we all seen or heard of a situation that we come up against in even our own lives that even the slightest aside to someone would have prevented something very very wrong from happening.
Call it spying, call it invading their privacy, call it not trusting them call it whatever you like, but there is nothing wrong with key loggers for your 13 year old daughter or son. Absolutely nothing. I state that firmly and without reservation, and the rest of the world be damned.
I make that statement because in my world it matters what you DO with that information. As we all know information IS vital to being able to guide events. You look at the the data and you see that your kid is trending into a pattern of behavior that you know is going to get their ass in a sling you just might want to start doing things with your kid that will gently guide them away from that. Your daughter and all her little pals are planning an event and in their little chat groups and what not you discover that someone is bringing drugs or there is going to be booze there you just might want to plan an alternate family event that just happens to prevent them being able to attend. Do you get in your kids face and call all their friends losers or do you gently steer them elsewhere, "Sorry kiddo we are going to be out of town that day."
Since my wife I are the ones that are going to get our asses raked over the coals by CPS / The Police / Family Court if our child does something stupid which, and lets face it if we all remember back to when we were 13 we know that despite our parents best efforts we did some stupid shit, 13 year old's are want to do, then we damn well have the right to use whatever tools that are at our disposal to attempt to prevent said stupid shit from happening.
It really comes down to how you act on that information. If you see your kid making choices that keep them out of trouble then you keep your mouth shut and let them explore and make the small mistakes and occasionally a few of the larger ones that have consequences that might very well cause you to have to take some kind of punitive measures but that will not endanger their future and or health. BE the invisible hand of guidance and let them grow up and hopefully they will do no harm to themselves and others.
Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
No, you're not living on through your children, you're beginning the process of iterating; you will die and someone else will take your place. Iterative design is all about fixing mistakes in the previous version (you) and trying to find a way to create adult humans who are capable of dealing with any problem that crosses their path (your child).
If you're trying to create adult humans that are the same as you instead of capable in general, you probably believe one or more of:
* That you're perfect (in which case you're wrong, especially if you're doing creepy things to your children)
* That you're not perfect, but they're not going to come across any problems you didn't (in which case you're 99% likely to be wrong, unless you're a fifth-generation coal miner or something)
* That something you needed to do is left undone (which is a shitty thing to leave your kids burdened with, especially without their consent or approval, and by the way you're not even dead yet)
* That life doesn't allow people to make any progress anyway so we should all just be shitty people like you
* Your children don't really have feelings anyway and as long as you play the game of parenting right you can make them into whatever you want
* That your way of life gives you a unique way of dealing with things that is far superior to all others (a view shared by both too-rich people and scam artists)
As far as I know, all of those are legitimately unhealthy psychologically.
I'm very glad that worked well for you. You should keep in mind, however, that not all kids are the same. I have four children, all of them raised in the same environment, with the same rules and in basically the same way. With one of them, I'd have no qualms about giving him his own, unmonitored, laptop and letting him use it anywhere he likes (in deference to issues of perceived fairness, I haven't done this -- he has to use the computer in the living room just like the other kids). With another, the approach you mentioned plus some software-enforced time limits (using timeoutd) is adequate. For a third, filtering and basic oversight have proven to be necessary and sufficient; as long as he knows there's a decent chance he'll be caught misbehaving, he doesn't.
For the fourth, I have configured vino on her account so that I can use VNC to watch her screen basically 100% of the time that she's on the computer (without her knowledge), we have full access to her Facebook and other on-line accounts, we read all of her texts and IM logs, etc. All of this very deep and invasive oversight is a condition of her right to use the computer, or the phone. Why? Because it's proven to be necessary. Without such intense oversight and frequent correction she gets herself in trouble. Granted that my daughter isn't a normal case; she struggles with severe clinical depression and an emotion disorder which often leads her to do self-destructive things.
But the point is that there is no one "right" approach to managing your children's computer use. Children are individuals, every one is unique and must be treated as such. Good parents strive to understand their children's needs and strike the appropriate balance between privacy and freedom on the one hand and oversight and control on the other. This is hard to do. In fact, it is almost certainly the hardest thing any parent EVER ever does in his or her life, and every parent gets it wrong, frequently. But parents who care and who work at it learn from their mistakes and adjust their approach.
Tools like keyloggers, VNC, chat logs, phone and text logs, etc. are all just tools. Good parents look for good tools and find the appropriate way to employ them. Good parents also weigh the pros and cons of full disclosure to their children of the degree of oversight being applied. In general, honesty and full disclosure is the best approach -- but there are exceptions to every rule.
The key is to understand your kids, as best you can, and then exercise good judgment, because you know their judgment is lacking. The best definition of wisdom that I've ever heard is "applied experience", and children do not have experience.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I can understand why parents would turn to police officers for some description of the threats out there. I get why they would want the people who deal with criminals to talk about the nature of the bad guys and how they operate. What I don't get is why parents would accept OPERATIONAL advice on how to behave towards their kids. The police are (duh) charged with the investigation of crimes and criminal suspects. This is a model for behavior which is unbelievably ill-suited for parenting.
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
Feel free to replace "parents" with "US Government" and "children" with "citizens" in any of those statements. Also feel free to replace "police" with "FBI".
Parents can do almost anything to their kids within the law and even in the criminal situations they rarely get caught and when they do I bet the majority of them do not get a proper response.
There is nothing wrong with keyloging YOUR kid. The other issues are just that-- OTHER ISSUES. It may prove useful to have a log of the kids messages if something goes wrong later. The only real big related issue is the privacy rights of the child, including the use of such info by police to nail your child for something... we are not intelligently handling children in the legal system anymore.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Key logging software is not the solutions to kids being in danger on the computer. I don't want to make a percentage but I'm sure the number of computers under secured is above 70%. Key logging does not keep kids safe and it does no prevent any issue. What parents need to do is to use high level security firewalls and filters to block kids from being able to get to far on the Internet.
On more then 1 occasion I've been told by family member that there computer is secure because they have norton. When you end up looking at there setup it's so sloppy and grade 8 hacker could reroute it, which also means that a click kid on a mouse can get around it. What really needs to happen is parent have to be taught about how computer security really works and how to setup security so it's effective. The key logger is just the icing on the cake, but its in no way a prevention method.