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Australian Court Gives Green Light To Disconnect Pirates

aesoteric writes "The Full Bench of Australia's Federal Court (three judges) has dismissed the film industry's appeal against a February 2010 judgment that found ISP iiNet had not authorised copyright infringement on its network. However, the ruling was a 2-1 majority and the judges have made several concessions to the Hollywood film studios. In particular, they set out a prescriptive path for the film industry to change the way it identifies alleged copyright infringers. The ruling says that if the film industry amends the format of its notices of infringement, pays the ISP to vet the notices and indemnifies the ISP against any fallout from disconnecting a customer, then disconnection is a reasonable step the ISPs should take to combat piracy. Essentially, the ruling gives internet service providers no absolute protection over the actions of their subscribers."

131 comments

  1. Close one by mmj638 · · Score: 2

    It's scary that one of the three judges was willing to basically let the movie industry control the ISP industry in the movie industry's interests.

    But overall it seems like a good decision; even if they did bend over a little for the movie industry, they did set out some expectations about what is and what isn't the right way to go about sending notices of infringement.

    1. Re:Close one by dwarfsoft · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I find it interesting that they specified that the Movie Industry needed to pay the ISP to vet the claims. Which means that frivolous disconnect requests should be weeded out or not submitted. This also means that the industry better have real evidence rather than just circumstantial evidence against their proposed user. Hopefully it should cut down on some of the bullying... It could have been far worse.

      --
      Cheers, Chris
    2. Re:Close one by Billlagr · · Score: 1

      It's not a horrible decision, it seems reasonable. If the movie industry wants someone disconnected, they have to pay the ISP for their time to check it out. Hopefully it might make the movie industry confirm their facts first rather than the shotgun-spray approach

    3. Re:Close one by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not that scary, it makes the the person claiming copyright infringement fully liable for disconnecting the wrong person or having insufficient proof to justify that disconnection and they have to pay the ISP's cost. They will also have to pay for warnings (low onus off proof) and of course for disconnection (high onus of proof that the person who 'contracted' the service is actually infringing). So the more action they want from the ISP the more it costs them, with no cost recovery.

      In Australia that often sides with the consumer. For example, having problems resolving issues with your incumbent Telecom, contact the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman and that Telecom gets the bill for the time you spend with the ombudsman, you'll be surprised how quickly your problem get resolved.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    4. Re:Close one by Lord_of_the_nerf · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actually, it's in our constitution, verbatim:

      "Ye shall have the right to be judged two peers and the village idiot who dost equate the sharing of files with wagon theft."

    5. Re:Close one by dakameleon · · Score: 1

      It'd be "doth", and the Australian constitution was written in the late 1890s so it's not quite so archaic with the wording. But that's what it boils down to, yes.

      --
      Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
    6. Re:Close one by exomondo · · Score: 2

      This is a very disturbing ruling if the movie industry can essentially order disconnects without evidence.

      Except that the ISPs have to paid to first vet the notices and even then if they do agree to disconnect the user the movie industry body has to indemnify the ISP against any action taken by the user. Seems like a pretty big cost and gamble that the movie industry body would have to take.

    7. Re:Close one by exomondo · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      It could have been far worse.

      Especially since piracy was the reason 4 americans (who could easily have been australians) were recently gunned down on their yacht.

    8. Re:Close one by Scarletdown · · Score: 0

      For example, having problems resolving issues with your incumbent Telecom, contact the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman and that Telecom gets the bill for the time you spend with the ombudsman, you'll be surprised how quickly your problem get resolved.

      If that doesn't work, does the situation escalate to a Booting?

      --
      This space unintentionally left blank.
    9. Re:Close one by Billlagr · · Score: 1

      This is a very disturbing ruling if the movie industry can essentially order disconnects without evidence

      Where does it say that? The notices have to be vetted by the ISP first, and the ISP paid to do so. That doesn't mean disconnection because the industry says so. To me it means that the claim has to be investigated by the ISP, and be compensated for their effort. If the claims aren't substanitated, then the ISP is under no obligation to do anything.

    10. Re:Close one by Billlagr · · Score: 1

      But does it weigh the same as a duck?

    11. Re:Close one by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Why should frivolous disconnect requests not be submitted? It's not like any part of the process is going to an actual court, or part of a real court proceeding.

      It's appears to basically be saying, the movie industry can kick whomever they like off the internet, the ISP has to follow their direction, and the only remedy an individual may have would be to sue the movie industry in an effort to be reconnected (I guess by somehow proving they are innocent?).

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    12. Re:Close one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > frivolous disconnect requests

      Disconnection requests. Please, cease this frivolous abuse of the language.

      I disconnect, you disconnect, he is subject to disconnection.

    13. Re:Close one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why should frivolous disconnect requests not be submitted?

      If the movie industry is smart, they will limit how many they disconnect. They're paying the ISP to basically kick their customers off the internet. I doubt an ISP will sit idly and watch the movie industry try to kick 10,000 of their users offline every day for instance. (As that would be 10,000 x 30-100 dollars per month)

      Is the amount that has to be paid determined by the movie industry or isp? If it were up to me I'd demand a surcharge of 5000 dollars per letter to make up for the lost business. They claim they're losing millions per pirate. This is surely a cheap alternative.

    14. Re:Close one by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      Regardless of the accuracy or otherwise of the charge (and that accuracy should be determined by a court, not some busy tech operator at the ISP), disconnection is not an appropriate response. So much of our work, social connections, purchasing and learning is done online these days, that severing someone from that is akin to making them a medieval pariah. If someone is guilty of piracy, let them be sued and make reparations. Judges who back this disconnection idea are out of touch types who probably consider the Internet that thing their grandkids use to play games on.

      Whenever piracy comes up on Slashdot, you'll likely find detailed rebuttals of the justifications for it by me. I don't like a group of people living freely off the backs of those who pay, and we have to put up with things like DRM as a response to their piracy. But disconnection counts as a "cruel and unusual" punishment. No to disconnection - whether guilty or not.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    15. Re:Close one by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      Well played, sir!

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    16. Re:Close one by dwarfsoft · · Score: 1

      Because they have to pay for the ISP to actually VET the request to make sure there is sufficient evidence to kick them off. The ISP does NOT want to piss of their customers. The industry will start to be very clear about specific users. Hopefully having this avenue will also mean that the sue-and-settle method of getting cash can be addressed if they didn't first take this step.

      --
      Cheers, Chris
    17. Re:Close one by MeateaW · · Score: 1

      These points all actually add up to a really good thing. SO MUCH of our lives is related to internet access, having access banned entirely for breaking a non-criminal rule should be illegal, therefore the first customer to get disconnected, then sues iiNet for damages. Those damages get immediately passed onto the movie industry (they have been indemnified after all!) and that will be the last customer ever disconnected. (or if they were stupid and got a couple hundred kicked off at the same time, hello class action!) Sadly. AFACT will indemnify the ISP, which will kick off the user, the user will sue (AFACT or the isp whoever) the case if prosecuted right will yield a big precedent in favour of the user, the ISP passes the bill to AFACT, AFACT conveniently has no assets. The movie studios incorporate AFACT2 and keep getting people kicked off the internet.

    18. Re:Close one by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

      Homer's Great Great grandfather: "Doth!"

      --
      My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
    19. Re:Close one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      4 americans (who could easily have been australians)

      Sure it sounds easy - until you've tried it.

    20. Re:Close one by ian_from_brisbane · · Score: 0

      It could have been far worse.

      Especially since piracy was the reason 4 americans (who could easily have been australians) were recently gunned down on their yacht.

      This was modded offtopic but I think it highlights once again the misuse of the word 'piracy' and 'pirate' to relate to people who merely duplicate sequences of data.

    21. Re:Close one by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      There's also another important part of the ruling. Indemnifying the ISP means that you can sue them if they get you disconnected unfairly. Let me reiterate, if they abuse this and get you disconnected unfairly, You can sue them.

      Do you really think the MPAA is going to find disconnect notices so attractive if they have to pay for the investigation and the mess they make.

    22. Re:Close one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cutting down on the bullying is a win, nothing more, nothing less. If the ISP's are entitled to be compensated for vetting, then only valid claims will be put forward. I'm not for open slather rip-off of copyright law, I simply want the law uplheld in a way that is fair for all, not just the film industry.

  2. disconnect all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    as long as they disconnect all without remorse, i do not see the problem.

    that includes politicians, people whose children downloaded something, big firms whose connection has been used to download something from.

    if that would happen people will care more about their behavior on the internet, ISPs will fight for their clients rights and RIAA and shit like that will be the bad guys they are.

    1. Re:disconnect all by Seumas · · Score: 1

      They said PIRACY. A kid downloading a movie or a song isn't committing piracy. If he's burning it to DVD and slapping a nice cover on it and selling it over eBay or some website for $5/ea to make a profit from it, he's committing piracy.

    2. Re:disconnect all by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

      The MAFIAA's description of copyright infringement (aka pirating) is just DL'ing a the file to your hard drive.

      If you leave it there ==> Gotcha!

      So anything beyond that is just more sins after the original.

      --
      Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
    3. Re:disconnect all by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      Are you in charge of definitions now? Because for the last few years of stories about The Pirate Bay and all that, I've heard piracy used to describe illegal downloading, even by those themselves? Is there some sudden move to try and disassociate from the term now that it's starting to be considered a bad thing by more people?

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  3. Well... by LaZZaR · · Score: 1

    Its not ideal, but better than having the ruling overturned. Although, the prospect of having the studios pay ISP's to process the infringement notices will give them yet another reason to complain about "the cost of piracy".

    --
    I lost me sig.
  4. that's not a internet, THIS is patrick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Destroying three perfectly good memes aside, I for one welcome our new Australian overlords.

  5. Copyright thugs rejoice! Bottom lines improved! by mykos · · Score: 3, Insightful
    They're not solving a problem; they're simply transferring money from one industry to another.

    I say that if an ISP has to lose a customer over copyright infringement, then the organization requesting the disconnect needs to pay at least half of the "lost revenue" (the term so loved by the copyright organizations) for the entire duration of the disconnected customer. That way they can split financial responsibilities between them.

    1. Re:Copyright thugs rejoice! Bottom lines improved! by mjwx · · Score: 1

      They're not solving a problem; they're simply transferring money from one industry to another.

      I say that if an ISP has to lose a customer over copyright infringement, then the organization requesting the disconnect needs to pay at least half of the "lost revenue" (the term so loved by the copyright organizations) for the entire duration of the disconnected customer. That way they can split financial responsibilities between them.

      Here's the brilliant thing, unlike the film industry the ISP's can actually prove that revenue will be lost.

      Alleged Pirate Bob has 14 months left in his 24 month contract. His contract is 59 gold pieces a month. This is a legally enforced contract so Bob cannot cancel it, that money is practically guaranteed. However if the ISP disconnects bob it means the ISP breaks the contract and effectively release Bob from the contract. This leaves a 826 Thaler hole in the ISP's bottom line.

      Actual loss of income, you can bet the well trained attack lawyers will be on to the studios for the maximum amount possible (actual cost of contract + admin costs + whatever else they can get away with).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    2. Re:Copyright thugs rejoice! Bottom lines improved! by lennier1 · · Score: 1

      Half?
      Seeing as how those companies want thousands of dollars for every shared song or movie it would only be fair for the ISPs to demand the local MAFIAA equivalent to pay a fee of at least 50000 dollars in advance before their employees lift a finger for such a request.

    3. Re:Copyright thugs rejoice! Bottom lines improved! by lennier1 · · Score: 1

      Considering in previous cases the recording industry felt justified to demand $22500 per song that would cost roughly $1 on iTunes that means the ISP's lawyer should go for at least 18 million bucks in that example case above.

    4. Re:Copyright thugs rejoice! Bottom lines improved! by mykos · · Score: 1

      I agree with this statement haha

    5. Re:Copyright thugs rejoice! Bottom lines improved! by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      You want the victim to pay compensation to the person that loses revenue when the culprit doesn't need their tools, anymore? I can see that principle breaking down rather quickly. "Your honour, the serial killer used to rent a lock-up from me to store the bodies. Now that the victims' families have brought charges, I stand to lose that income." "Good point - I hereby declare that in return for sentencing the killer, those families must reimburse you for lost income. Next!"

      Nice.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    6. Re:Copyright thugs rejoice! Bottom lines improved! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what horseshit

      If I steal your car, nothing is lost!!!11111 I'm just transferring the car from yout o me.

      Only on slashretard is such bullshit excsues for fuckign theft tolerated.

      FUCKING GROW UP

    7. Re:Copyright thugs rejoice! Bottom lines improved! by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      Are isp's prohibited from re-subscribing someone who has been disconnected? If not I could see 10 day disconnect letters being used to give people time to sign up for "new" service that happens to start the same day their old service gets disconnected.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    8. Re:Copyright thugs rejoice! Bottom lines improved! by Shikaku · · Score: 1

      Don't they teach you how to write in those offices, Mr. Anonymous but obviously from RIAA/MPAA?

    9. Re:Copyright thugs rejoice! Bottom lines improved! by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      hell, if you factor in that if the ISP hadnt disconnected poor ol' pirate Bob, he might have stayed a customer for ever (and hands his cable modem down to his firstborn son etc...) that means the ISP loses 59 * INFINITY!!!!! pieces of eight

      Honestly, i would LOVE to have ISPs countersue the MAFIAA for lost revenue, in the end it could somehow lead to a more fair pricing on media, since the MAFIAA would be directly faced with the cost of their current plan to fend off piracy, and might consider competing in different ways, such as actually providing value for money..

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    10. Re:Copyright thugs rejoice! Bottom lines improved! by Leekle2ManE · · Score: 1

      I would have to disagree here. What you're saying is that Internet Service Providers should not be held accountable in any way, shape or form for how their service is used? Every service provider from Electrical to Transportation to Gas stations are responsible for monitoring how their services are used and reporting any illegal activities. But you're suggesting that not only should ISPs not have to monitor their services, but they should be rewarded if they allow their services to be used illegally.

      I'm all for our internet freedoms. I don't think certain things on the internet should necessarily be illegal (God I miss acquiring old, hard-to-get singles via old Napster). I want our freedoms to remain intact. But I'm also aware of my responsibilities to keep it that way. And I think ISPs should hold some of that responsibility. If an ISP is willing to blindly allow their customers to use their services however they want, then that ISP should be willing to lose that customer if the service is used irresponsibly.

    11. Re:Copyright thugs rejoice! Bottom lines improved! by lennier1 · · Score: 1

      ... such as actually providing value for money.

      Great, I love a good science fiction story!

  6. Bit of a mixed bag by adamkennedy · · Score: 1

    iiNet won - good

    But they can send notices now - bad

    But they have to pay all the ISPs costs - good (cause it will suppress the volume they send and limit spamming)

    1. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they have to pay all the ISPs costs - good (cause it will suppress the volume they send and limit spamming)

      Or add the takedown fees to the "piracy is destroying our industry" rhetoric they constantly spout

    2. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by deniable · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but this is an actual cost, not a made-up one. They really don't like those.

    3. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by c0lo · · Score: 1

      But they have to pay all the ISPs costs - good (cause it will suppress the volume they send and limit spamming)

      Or add the takedown fees to the "piracy is destroying our industry" rhetoric they constantly spout

      Since, based on their arithmetic they are losing billions because of the wide-spread piracy, the situation is a Win-Win: their bottom line will improve with every pirate being disconnected and every ripped movie no longer shared; while the ISP-es get a big boost (proportional with the piracy rate) from the fees they are going to pay. Right?

      And the honest/non-pirating Internet consumers will see their internet access fees going down (because the ISP has an additional income source), the effective bandwidth increasing (no longer being hogged by the pesky pirates) and the prices for the DVD/BlueRay movies lowering (as they - not actually being some greedy bloody b/tards but only innocent victims of piracy - will be getting now enough profit from the same title). Right?... C'mon, isn't it so?!

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    4. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by dakameleon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But they can send notices now - bad

      It's not that they couldn't send notices before, but before it was more of a formality. They'd send the notice on as a warning that you've been noticed doing this activity, but the burden of enforcement wasn't there. Now, there's potential for a mechanism for these notices to be legitimate and enforceable - I think unless you're a hardcore committed anti-copyright activist*, you can hardly claim this is not reasonable. The burden of proof lies with the accuser, but it makes it more sensible in that Australian-based claimants should only issue notices if they have sufficient evidence to pursue conviction. Pretty sure the US ones will continue to issue their form-letter warnings no matter what.

      --
      Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
    5. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Which ISP's would do this?

      The dodgy ones yes but what happens when people actually start getting kicked off of their Telstra Big Pond accounts?

      They'll go to iinet. You'll find that ISP's like iinet, Internode, Adam et al. covet their customer base very jealously. All kinds of excuses will be used for non compliance. The admin costs for this will be astronomical, they'll put VPN's in place by default. In the end all the studios have wrought is another way for them to lose money.

      And all that will happen in the Oz ISP industry is the bad ISP's will lose customers.

      And just wait until Telstra drops one of their rural customers who cant get on any other ISP. ACA/Today Tonight will be all over that like flies on a dog turd.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    6. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by lennier1 · · Score: 1

      will see their internet access fees going down (because the ISP has an additional income source)

      Thanks for the laugh!

    7. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's evaluate:

      their bottom line will improve with every pirate being disconnected and every ripped movie no longer shared

      People disconnected from the internet can't pirate anything using the internet. But they also can't buy anything on iTunes or Amazon or subscribe to Netflix or watch commercials on Hulu. And they can still pirate using sneakernet. So that sounds like a net loss then. Oops.

      the ISP-es get a big boost (proportional with the piracy rate) from the fees they are going to pay

      Basically the entire fee amount goes to cover the costs of implementing the system; it doesn't generate profits.

      the honest/non-pirating Internet consumers will see their internet access fees going down (because the ISP has an additional income source)

      Quite the opposite actually. The ISP has the same expenses for bucket trucks and electricity whether your neighbor is disconnected or not, but if he's disconnected then the ISP loses his subscription fee and they have to make up the difference by charging more to you. Sorry.

      the effective bandwidth increasing (no longer being hogged by the pesky pirates)

      Not in the long term. ISPs only build enough capacity to prevent customers from revolting. If demand for bandwidth is reduced, that just means the ISP will drag its feet in upgrading the network and it'll stay slower longer.

      the prices for the DVD/BlueRay movies lowering (as they - not actually being some greedy bloody b/tards but only innocent victims of piracy - will be getting now enough profit from the same title)

      Nope, prices are pegged at the profit-maximizing price. Increasing sales won't lower prices. In theory if pirates actually started buying more stuff then prices would go up, because econ 101 says increased demand leads to higher prices.

    8. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by c0lo · · Score: 1
      Wow... thank you for the analysis... How silly for me to trust that bunch of judges to come with a solution that will make the world a better place. I'll do my best to direct your analysis to their attention, maybe they'll see how wrong they were.

      (I apologize for all the above: my only excuse - must be my Friday(-thanks-God-)impaired sense of humor)

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    9. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by wvmarle · · Score: 2

      But they can send notices now - bad

      Why is that bad?

      It is just one avenue of copyright holders to protect their copyrights. Notices may have the effect of stopping an infringement that is going on without having to involve the courts immediately, I don't see anything bad there. However they will have to pay the cost of the ISP that deals with the notices, and I think that's a good thing. It basically means the copyright owner has to pay for their own cost of protecting their rights.

      I have no idea what the legal value is of such a notice; though if a user is doing infringement, is served notices, and continues, then the damages to be gained in court will be higher. Though if the user stops, s/he may get off without any further ado. Which would be a win/win: copyrights protected, no ridiculous fines for the user. Nothing bad there again.

      In the end suing someone for damages should be a last resort. Providing alternative solutions that can (and should) be tried first, is a good thing.

    10. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately I don't have the link to hand, but I did read that the notices actually met with some success. A lot of people who pirate just do so because (a) they've never thought of it as wrong and (b) they consider themselves anonymous. In many cases, a letter arriving saying: "look, stop nicking our stuff" has made them think about one or both of these. Basically, as you say, a letter is a much better first step than a legal charge.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    11. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      Kind of anecdotal, but I see the same thing. From personal experience, that approach got me in to buying a TV licence. The thought that I'd not be noticed evaporated when some guy came knocking on the door.

      Yeah, a personalised (i.e. not addressed to "Dear RESIDENT") letter is a pretty good start. It's a wake-up call, and also helps on the PR side should the labels decide to unleash legal obliteration against some parents who failed to get their kids to stop downloading stuff. The latter is kind of difficult to defend when there's evidence that a clear and polite warning was issued.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    12. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1
      My laugh was in this:

      and the prices for the DVD/BlueRay movies lowering (as they - not actually being some greedy bloody b/tards but only innocent victims of piracy - will be getting now enough profit from the same title). Right?... C'mon, isn't it so?!

      Damn, that's a good one!
      My ISP may lower prices due to another source of income (since price is a major selling point). However, there is no competition in the price of blu-rays.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    13. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      However, there is no competition in the price of blu-rays.

      Competition is not the relevant price control for luxury goods (i.e. things you don't actually need, such as movies). if a majority of people feel that paying $15 for a Blu-ray is acceptable, then there is no incentive for the manufacturer to sell if for less. If most people thought it was too much, then the manufacturer (assuming there is a margin that can be cut and still be profitable) will reduce the cost.

      I mention this just because your post seems to suggest that competition in Blu-rays would reduce the price. It wouldn't - it's not the relevant cost. Sure, if Blu-Ray were an open format you might see a small reduction as manufacturers of the physical disc competed with less licencing overhead, but the physical disc isn't the primary cost when you buy a movie. Basically, Blu-Rays are the price they are because that's what most people think they're worth. If you know better, then go and work for a movie studio because they'll pay you very handsomely for helping them increase their profit margins by pointing out where their market research is in error.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    14. Re:Bit of a mixed bag by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      While your point is entirely valid, the assumption that I had such a moronically simple view of things isn't. The fact that there is no price competition in blue rays doesn't mean there should be competition. The fact that I am currently not shot in the head doesn't mean I should be (there are other arguments for that, but that's beside the point). If there were price competition the cheap copy selling companies would out-compete the studio's that produce, because the main cost isn't in the producing of the disks.
      I meant, simply, that the blue-rays would not get cheaper, while my ISP's main selling point is it's price/speed performance and thus their price would lower in order to get more customers.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  7. Re: by mmj638 · · Score: 1

    But the toppings contain potassium benzoate.

  8. Digital Capital Punishment? by zlel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why don't we cut their electricity cos they used electricity to run the PC to connect to the internet?

    1. Re:Digital Capital Punishment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't give them ideas!

    2. Re:Digital Capital Punishment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back in the good old days we all recognized that misbehavior online could lead to a loss of connectivity. Spamming, fraud, harassment, black hat hacking, and copyright infringement violate most any ISP's TOS. Maybe our righteous indignation at a lot of the crap pulled by the MAFIAA has made some lose sight of this.

    3. Re:Digital Capital Punishment? by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Huh! I'm using a SheevaPlug powered with solar panels for my pirating activities. Disconnecting the electricity will only shut down my refrigerator... errr... wait... let me put some ice into that Esky, I hate warm beer.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    4. Re:Digital Capital Punishment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In American, we will just sue the Electric Company for providing us a way to pirate movies.

    5. Re:Digital Capital Punishment? by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      You can get internet from the sun?

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    6. Re:Digital Capital Punishment? by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Actually, it is Oracle now.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    7. Re:Digital Capital Punishment? by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      Politicians are power hungry and corrupt. Even if people all over the world were on their best behaviour all the time, they would still find excuses to institute draconian policies that help their business buddies today. The fact that people made use of the freedoms afforded by the net in the early days is irrelevant.

    8. Re:Digital Capital Punishment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not the sun but from a sunny place.
      My seedbox sits in sunny Tonga, I don't give a shit about that law.

    9. Re:Digital Capital Punishment? by FragHARD · · Score: 1

      There we go again.... blaming the 'tool' used to facilitate the aforementioned action..... When will it stop???

      --
      FragHARD or don't frag at all
  9. Pay TV Tricks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can see the whole pay TV tricks coming out with this. Back in the day when pay TV providers offered x days free and free installation, people would have TV for years by never paying the bill, getting disconnected and signing back up again under a different name.

  10. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To use the same term for those people and someone who downloads The.Mechanic.2011.R5.LiNE.AC3-T0XiC-iNK is just fucking ignorant.

    Torrentz, please!!!!

  11. The full judgement by Cimexus · · Score: 4, Informative

    The full judgement, including the majority and minority decisions, is available here: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FCAFC/2011/23.html

    It's worth a read, or a skim at least. The judges were entirely reasonable in their dismissal and actually do seem to grasp the technical side of the case quite well (no doubt assisted by iiNet having some excellent technical witnesses/advisors during the trial). Overall it's a very good outcome for Australian Internet users, and confirms the very high level of consumer protection in this country compared to many other places.

    The concession to the film industry that will now allow them to legitimately send infringement notices with the potential to disconnect users is OK. There is a heavy onus placed on the film industry to come up with all the evidence, show that it's relevant and pay for the ISPs time to investigate. Further, if the disconnection is later found to be unwarranted, it is the film industry that bears all responsibility and liability, not the ISP. So although there is now a prescribed path the film industry can take to disconnect people, the barriers to doing so are high, which sound reduce frivolous claims and make sure they really only go after that large-scale uploaders, not every man and his dog that occasionally downloads a film or two.

    Interesting how I've seen this news on so many sites, and they all report it with overwhelmingly positive headlines ... except Slashdot. Slashdot is the only site I've seen that somehow seems to wrangle this into a NEGATIVE sounding headling. Is it just me or is /. turning into the grumpy old man that likes to complain about everything and is constantly trying to push their agenda onto other people...

    1. Re:The full judgement by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      Typo in third paragraph: 'which sound reduce frivolous claims' should obviously read 'which SHOULD reduce...' >

    2. Re:The full judgement by pacinpm · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Interesting how I've seen this news on so many sites, and they all report it with overwhelmingly positive headlines ... except Slashdot. Slashdot is the only site I've seen that somehow seems to wrangle this into a NEGATIVE sounding headling. Is it just me or is /. turning into the grumpy old man that likes to complain about everything and is constantly trying to push their agenda onto other people...

      It's because it's bad decision. It introduces new punishment: denial of communication. As someone already mentioned it: why not cut people's electric power or ban computer use at all?

      Internet is so important today that you can't just disconnect people. Infringements should go to regular civil trials and money punishments.

    3. Re:The full judgement by sstrick · · Score: 1

      Even in Aus we have more then one provider.....

      --

      "Do you think we could wipe out world hunger forever if scientists figured out how to make AOL's Free CD's edible?"-
    4. Re:The full judgement by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Disconnect does not necessarily imply ban. This is not a three-strikes policy. I forsee the first case being little more than a week without the internet and a bit of paperwork on the behalf of the accused, and chances are you may be able to sign up right with the same provider again.

    5. Re:The full judgement by bit01 · · Score: 1

      Interesting how I've seen this news on so many sites, and they all report it with overwhelmingly positive headlines

      Many of those websites are not exactly unbiased.

      That's been a problem with the entire "intellectual property" discussion; main stream media with extreme vested interests framing the debate (e.g. Don't think of an elephant). Not to mention compromising democracy in general for their own profit.

      ---

      Like software, "intellectual property" law is a product of the mind, and can be anything we want it to be. Let's get it right.

    6. Re:The full judgement by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

      Even in Aus we have more then one provider.....

      Yeah, but the whinger may have been in the US, where even big cities are sometimes divided up into monopoly areas.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    7. Re:The full judgement by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      An ISP can already disconnect you for any damn reason it sees fit (under their TOS). They have always been able to do this, and it has nothing to do with the this particular judgement. In fact, it makes the likelyhood of disconnection by your ISP LESS because ISPs no longer have to fear they will be held responsible for piracy and simply disconnect people 'to be safe'. It must now be investigated through a proper due process.

      Plus, unlike in the US, there's typically 30+ ISPs to choose from in most given areas. You'd have to be trying pretty hard to get disconnected from them all.

    8. Re:The full judgement by misexistentialist · · Score: 0

      Any shutdown of your internet service by a third party is totally unacceptable regardless of any "concessions" or "protections". What's next, websites demanding that people who use Adblock have their internet disconnected? That must be OK since those "so many sites" you mention would be even more enthusiastic in their support. The content industry has plenty of funding and legal representation and will continue its terror campaign against its enemy--the mass of people who download occasionally instead of paying--now with the justification of a "fair and balanced" legal foundation and a routine and streamlined disconnection process.

  12. Fuck AusFAILia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nuke the whole goddamn country/continent off the goddamn planet.

    1. Re:Fuck AusFAILia by MeateaW · · Score: 1

      They tried in the 50's. All they hit was South Australia. And nothing of value was lost.

  13. To the High Court it is... by srjh · · Score: 1

    In a sense, the actual verdict here was somewhat irrelevant, given that both sides were certain to appeal the outcome if they lost.

    It's a little uncertain where things will go from here. The fact that one of the three justices was willing to give AFACT members the power to force ISPs to disconnect their customers based on mere allegations is extremely troubling, but the proposals by the majority justices appear to constitute what would be seen by the High Court as a reasonable compromise, making the rather extreme position held by AFACT less likely to win (particularly having lost twice already).

    Could go either way, I guess, given how backwards our country is on digital technology.

    1. Re:To the High Court it is... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      In a sense, the actual verdict here was somewhat irrelevant, given that both sides were certain to appeal the outcome if they lost.

      The High Court does not have to take the case.

      It is the onus of the losing party to justify why the High Court should even hear their case, with the 2-1 against ruling the studio's they have some ammunition to go to the High Court but I doubt the Court will give them the time of day with the current ruling.

      So it's of to parliament they go, but Conroy also wont give them the time of day and I doubt Turnbull will either. Both are far too concerned about their reputations.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  14. people still do that to get deal by moving from on by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    people still do that to get deal by moving from one system to a other one and then back after the 1-2 year deal price is over to get the new customers rate.

  15. Hypocrites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For an industry built on intellectual property infringement, they are quick to go after others.

  16. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by c0lo · · Score: 1

    Give up this nonsense already. Everybody knows:
    1. hackers are the guys that crack someone's computer and not the smart/clever persons that fix something like magic.
    2. pirates are the guys that download and share movies and not the Somalian gangsters.

    --
    Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  17. Piracy. by Sasayaki · · Score: 1, Funny

    Copyright infringement is not piracy. This woman, known as the Lion of Brittany, was a pirate. I doubt she had many MP3s, although she did have three ships, seven children and a very successful thirteen year career as a pirate where she took great delight in personally executing French noblemen with an axe and tossing their bodies overboard.

    Put into perspective, copyright infringement- even deliberate, for-profit, commercial piracy- pales in comparison. Really, now. They might as well call it "rape", from the Latin "raptus", meaning to seize by force and carry away.

    ... although maybe I shouldn't give them ideas. Next we'll see 13 year old kids being accused of "Multimedia Rape" for downloading a Beiber MP3, when the correct term for downloading a Beiber MP3 is "Aural Rape".

    --
    Check out my sci-fi book "Lacuna" at http://goo.gl/MVxX8
    1. Re:Piracy. by Sasayaki · · Score: 1

      Minor correction- that's The LionESS of Brittany.

      --
      Check out my sci-fi book "Lacuna" at http://goo.gl/MVxX8
    2. Re:Piracy. by bakes · · Score: 1

      Sorry, you can't use the word 'rape' either, as that word refers to a plant used to make edible oils.

      Many words have multiple meanings, the word piracy is now one of them. As another example, if I call you a knob I am not saying you are "a rounded handle, as on a drawer or door".

      --
      Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!
    3. Re:Piracy. by h4rm0ny · · Score: 0

      I agree that pirate is a bad term. I prefer calling them "freeloaders". It's an entirely accurate word for what they do.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    4. Re:Piracy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Piracy hasn't recently become one of the many words that have multiple meanings, it has been used to refer to copyright infringement as far back as the 18th century.

  18. Concerned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In all the press on this I read yesterday it had only stated that AFACT had lost the case 2-1 and nothing about the concessions mentioned in this article.

    From what I understand TPG customers get Infringement notices - I wonder if these come straight from the studios or are forwarded on via the ISP?

    Side question anyway.

  19. Nowhere near as bad as the headline makes it sound by euphemistic · · Score: 4, Informative
    While it might give AFACT a better description of what it would potentially need to disconnect people, there are a few things in the summary by Judge Cowdroy which suggest even if they did, it still wouldn't happen.

    13. Secondly, I find that a scheme for notification, suspension and termination of customer accounts is not, in this instance, a relevant power to prevent copyright infringement pursuant to s 101(1A)(a) of the Copyright Act, nor in the circumstances of this case is it a reasonable step pursuant to s 101(1A)(c) of the Copyright Act.

    I find that iiNet did have a repeat infringer policy which was reasonably implemented and that iiNet would therefore have been entitled to take advantage of the safe harbour provisions in Division 2AA of Part V of the Copyright Act if it needed to do so. ... While iiNet did not have a policy of the kind that the applicants believed was required, it does not follow that iiNet did not have a policy which complied with the safe harbour provisions. However, as I have not found that iiNet authorised copyright infringement, there is no need for iiNet to take advantage of the protection provided by such provisions.

    20. The law recognises no positive obligation on any person to protect the copyright of another. The law only recognises a prohibition on the doing of copyright acts without the licence of the copyright owner or exclusive licensee, or the authorisation of those acts.

    The above taken from the judge's summary of the findings

    426. There can be no doubt that the respondent has the contractual right to warn and terminate its subscribers pursuant to its CRA if a breach of its terms occurs. However, that does not, of itself, make termination a reasonable step or a relevant power to prevent infringement in all circumstances. It must be remembered that absent those contractual provisions, the respondent would have had no power to terminate subscribers even if they were found by a Court to have infringed copyright. The CRA constitutes the respondent’s standard contractual terms used by a wide variety of subscribers. Consequently, and unsurprisingly, the CRA seeks to provide sufficient contractual terms to cover all eventualities, both existing at the time of the writing of the CRA and into the future. That does not mean that such terms should or would always be exercised even if a contractual right to exercise them arises. 427. Further, the right to do something does not create an obligation to do something. The doctrine of privity of contract provides that the only two parties relevant to the enforcement of the CRA are the respondent and the subscriber. Should the contract be breached by the subscriber, it is entirely a matter for the respondent to decide whether to act on the contract. Had the respondent taken action against its subscribers based on an AFACT Notice and it was subsequently found that the allegation was unfounded, the respondent would have committed a breach of its contract with the subscriber and been made potentially liable for damages without any indemnity from the applicants or AFACT. In such circumstance it was not unreasonable that the respondent should have sought to be cautious before acting on information provided by a party unrelated to the CRA.

    436. The Court does not consider that warning and termination of subscriber accounts on the basis of AFACT Notices is a reasonable step...

    The above taken from the full findings available at: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FCA/2010/24.html

  20. Re: by ross.w · · Score: 1

    ...that's bad

    --
    If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
  21. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by countertrolling · · Score: 1

    Words can have many diverse meanings. Take <fuck>, for example..

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
  22. Not all judges recommended disconnects. by Spikeles · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Parts 436 - 442 from the full ruling show that at least one judge(remember there were 3) understands that cutting internet off is a bad idea.

    The Court does not consider that warning and termination of subscriber accounts on the basis of AFACT Notices is a reasonable step, and further, that it would constitute a relevant power to prevent the infringements occurring.

    Such punishment or sanction would be collective because the termination or suspension of a subscriber account would affect not just the person who infringed, but all those who access the internet through such account or use such account as a phone line via VOIP.

    The law knows of no sanction for copyright infringement other than that imposed by a court pursuant to Part V of the Copyright Act. Such sanction is not imposed until after a finding of infringement by a court. Such sanction is not imposed on anyone other than the person who infringed. Such sanction sounds in damages or, if criminal, possible fines and imprisonment, not removal of the provision of the internet.

    --
    I don't need to test my programs.. I have an error correcting modem.
  23. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's possible to have a very wide perspective - one that allows for multiple definitions of words and multiple severities attached to those definitions.

    It sounds like you're the one lacking perspective - you seem to view the world through a very narrow slit which turns everything black and white.

  24. Genius Reciprocal Agreements! by definate · · Score: 1

    YOU HANDSOME GENIUS YOU!

    Don't you see? Our ISP contracts and service could now be increased to include "piracy insurance" which is a part of your service. This insurance then ensures that any loss resulting from "piracy" will be paid for by the ISP. Therefore, the ISP has the right to demand from the people who are suing the ISP, the amount they would get, if it were successful. Therefore, the film industry can never make any money off of it!

    Huzzah for contorted logic!

    Though seriously, what's the likelihood of such an agreement? I have a feeling that the insurance would be labelled a second separate contract, and as such the money the film industry is liable for, does not include this amount. Damn you corporate law!

    --
    This is my footer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    1. Re:Genius Reciprocal Agreements! by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      Well done, "genius", you've just created a scenario where an ISP can still get revenue whilst not having the costs of providing a service. Noooo, that's not an incentive for ISPs to cut someone off at all now, is it?

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  25. Woah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Especially since piracy was the reason 4 americans (who could easily have been australians) were recently gunned down on their yacht.

    The MPAA is sure getting aggressive against torrent users!

    1. Re:Woah! by TheMidget · · Score: 1

      The MPAA is sure getting aggressive against torrent users!

      That was not a torrent, that was a whooping big ocean!

    2. Re:Woah! by Golddess · · Score: 1

      So you mean they went after real pirates for once? :P

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
  26. Yeah right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hahaha it will never hap

  27. harsh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Seems pretty harsh to cut off an entire family from the 'net just because their teenager downloaded a few favourite tv shows.

  28. I am glad YOU feel that way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now, just out of educational interests.. what is your IP address?

    Not asking for any particular reason, but am wondering how you will live without net access for a while based on an unsupported accusation of guilt without a court overseeing this...

  29. To quote Bugs Bunny: Of course, this means war... by lexsird · · Score: 1

    I think it's our imperative to revolt against intrusion into our digital realms by archaic industries. It's a new age, and the relics of the past need to either evolve or pass away into oblivion.
    You can't set your valuables on the curb and cry to the police when they are picked up by passers by. The archaic technologies that the movie and music industry use are little more than a modern equivalent of placing their product on the curb for everyone to have at. Then they have the audacity to attempt to hinder the progressive technologies, a move which is the equivalent to complaining about your things being taken when you leave them on the curb, to remove the road, or restrict who travels down it or when.
    Sadly, our systems of government haven't evolved either. They are still prone to being manipulated and controlled by these archaic behemoths, which make me pause and wonder if we don't need to replace the governments first with something more fitting to our times.

    How shall we fight back? How shall we the little people, the drones, the lemmings fight city hall and the powers that be? I say lets us look to old wisdom, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." I think we should all embrace "piracy" as a form of revolt against these industries. Instead of being innovative, they choose to manipulate the courts and the government into intruding into our "digital airspace". Did they all happen to miss the Internet Declaration of Independence? The Internet is the realm of the people of Earth, it belongs to no corporation or government. We are seeing these archaic institutions fight against the Internet even today with so many in the Middle East using it to free their minds and their selves. These evil governments are fighting Internet access, because they fear it. And they should, for freedom of information ultimately will be the undoing of wrong doings. Our founding fathers understood this when the first thing they addressed was freedom of the press.

    I advocate that we force change upon them lo as they attempt to force change upon our digital realm. I say it's your moral obligation via civil disobedience to embrace piracy and to boycott the current entertainment industry. Let us take our entertainment underground and leave them without the precious resource they so desire; Money. It is of dire importance that the lesson we teach to the archaic powers of the world is this; "your attempts to control our freedom of information will not only be futile, but costly."

    The cost of freedom is vigilance, and there is no exception to this especially here in this delicate environment, our "digital realm". Make no mistake, this is an intrusion, a shot across our bow and if we shrink back from this challenge, then those that are the enemy of this precious freedom for humanity, will smell blood in the water and know that they can gain ground and eventually succeed. It's what we decide to do today that shapes tomorrow; let us not be found by history to be slack or cowards in our moment of time.

    So let us heed a call to arms and pass the word, lest we wake up someday soon with our digital world just as in shackles as our real one.

    --
    Take the Red Pill.
  30. Re:To quote Bugs Bunny: Of course, this means war. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think the pirates leave (upload) the valuables on the road for anyone to pick up, not the industry. I'm no apologist for the music and film industry, I just thought the analogy was misplaced.

  31. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

    Right now there are Somalian gangsters taking over peoples' boats and kidnapping and killing people.

    To use the same term for those people and someone who downloads The.Mechanic.2011.R5.LiNE.AC3-T0XiC-iNK is just fucking ignorant.

    Is it possible to have a little perspective, please?

    By the way, several of the board members of the MPAA are child molesters. I don't mean that they molest children, but that's the term I use to refer to the members of the MPAA and RIAA. I would like to see "child molester" become the common term to describe any studio head, member of RIAA or MPAA or any of their lawyers.

    Seeing as you appear to care passionately about the use of the term "pirate", here is one that I can think of that can be used as an alternative: "Freeloader". It means one that takes for free what others pay for, getting a free ride off other people. I think you'll find that is in no way incompatible with software piracy and there's nothing inaccurate in using that term.

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  32. Re:To quote Bugs Bunny: Of course, this means war. by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

    Are you serious or is that parody? Free Speech was about people being able to safely speak their beliefs, not about distributing Dragon Age II or Iron Man for free. Boycott has historically meant stopping buying something and doing without, not taking something and refusing to pay. I reject entirely that people writing computer games, novels, recording songs, making movies, are "archaic powers". These are people contributing to our culture and they deserve to get paid at whatever price they and their customers can meet and agree on. The Internet offers artists a chance to sell and market directly to the public and the biggest thing in the way of that is piracy.

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  33. Equilibrium karma by TildeComma · · Score: 1

    If I download copyrighted content but then upload it don't the two cancel out?

    1. Re:Equilibrium karma by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      If I download copyrighted content but then upload it don't the two cancel out?

      Are you suggesting that you are uploading the files back to the same place you just downloaded them from?

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  34. http://berita-indonesia-hari-ini.blogspot.com/ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  35. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    here is one that I can think of that can be used as an alternative: "Freeloader".

    I would accept that. As long as the same term applies to anyone who owns intellectual property and did not directly create the work got called by the same name.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  36. rapists and abuse(r)s of the public by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am very uncomfortable with movie industry sponsored disconnects. One can suspect several ways this will mutate into public abuses, again.

    Requiring rapists to have a bankroll and KY gel, still means there is a psycho that needs lead therapy.

  37. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

    I would accept that. As long as the same term applies to anyone who owns intellectual property and did not directly create the work got called by the same name.

    That would be inaccurate. If I start a game design company and employ some programmers and writers and artists to work on a project and create a game and they are paid for their work, then I own an intellectual property, but I am not freeloading. I have invested money in it. Similarly with any artist who created a work but then sold the rights to it to another party. The buying party did not directly create the work, but they are not freeloading because they have given the artists an agreed sum in return for those (or more often some of those) rights.

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  38. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    If I start a game design company and employ some programmers and writers and artists to work on a project and create a game and they are paid for their work, then I own an intellectual property, but I am not freeloading.

    Are we talking about the legal definition or moral definition?

    The term "freeloader" is a moral term, not a descriptive term and certainly not a legal term of art. I believe that anyone owning intellectual "property" besides the innovator himself is immoral. It is not what the copyright or patent systems were designed for. It does not "spur innovation" to have anyone but the people who did the work own the IP. As you know, the secondary market for IP is huge. More people and entities own IP who did NOT do the work than the other way around. And it's actually hurting society for it to work this way, as can be clearly seen in the pharmaceutical industry replacing safe drugs that have lost patent protection with more dangerous new drugs that promise higher profits.

    This goes to the point of whether or not you believe labor precedes capital (as historians, economists and ethicists and I believe) or the other way around, as you and the corporatist Right seem to believe. You see, this is a political issue. It's a moral issue. And it's an issue that divides you and me. Putting profit before morality is the number one problem facing human society today. It expresses itself in everything from starvation in sub-Saharan Africa to children with developmental disorders in America. It is finding expression in out-of-work 62 year old in Missouri and someone living in inland China earning 40 cents a day. And it's fullest expression is the fact that world wealth is increasing while being shared by an ever shrinking percentage of the population.

    And it finds expression in some 27 year-old in your town choosing to download a movie illegally instead of paying for it because he doesn't feel vested in the system whereby wealth is siphoned from his labor to a very small number of people who have done nothing to earn it. For a social contract to work, everyone has to feel like they are vested in it. That hasn't been the case for at least a couple of decades, and increasingly since 1980.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  39. Were I an ISP... by His+Irateness · · Score: 1

    Invoice to Time Warner for Disconnection of Joe User:

    25,000$ Labour and Investigation Charge
    10,000$ Lost Revenue Charge
    10,000$ Legal Fee Charge

    Subtotal, 45,000$

    Now, is that worth it for going after someone who downloaded the newest terrible action movie, watched five minutes, and deleted it?

  40. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seeing as you appear to care passionately about the use of the term "pirate", here is one that I can think of that can be used as an alternative: "Freeloader". It means one that takes for free what others pay for, getting a free ride off other people.

    You mean, like people who watch FREE over-the-air TV?

    Like those who take out books, CDs, and DVDs from the library for FREE?

    Those people?

  41. Re:To quote Bugs Bunny: Of course, this means war. by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

    Free Speech was about people being able to safely speak their beliefs, not about distributing Dragon Age II or Iron Man for free.

    Free Speech is about speech (i.e. communication) in itself not being a crime, regardless of the content. It is a specific instance of the more general principle that the only actions deserving of punishment are those which cause harm to others. Copyright infringement is nothing but a specific case of communication, and does not harm anyone—a copyright holder is no worse off if people 'pirate' his or her work than he or she would be if they simply did without it, and may even benefit as a side-effect of the public exposure. To punish someone for such an act is a clear case of aggression.

    --
    "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
  42. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

    If I start a game design company and employ some programmers and writers and artists to work on a project and create a game and they are paid for their work, then I own an intellectual property, but I am not freeloading.

    Are we talking about the legal definition or moral definition?

    The accurate definition: Freeloader is one that gets their benefit from the work of others without recompensing those others. There is no "legal" or "moral" definition in there, it simply describes behaviour. You agreed that it fitted the behaviour of pirates, but said it also fitted anyone who owned intellectual property that they didn't directly create. I showed with examples that it doesn't as within those examples, there was recompense made to the creator of the works. So yes, "Freeloader" is an accurate term for pirates, but not for those that pay others for intellectual property. That society generally regards freeloading negatively is a separate issue following on from that. Your objection is not based on inaccuracy in the definition, but because the term highlights that pirates are putting the financial burden of producing the media on others, and merely living off those other people. Rightly, that is seen as negative.

    The term "freeloader" is a moral term, not a descriptive term and certainly not a legal term of art.

    Terms are always descriptive. That is what a term is - a description. I've given you a definition of "freeloader" above which no-one would think inaccurate unless they had a reason not to want the term to be applied. Do you honestly think the definition above is fundamentally wrong?

    I believe that anyone owning intellectual "property" besides the innovator himself is immoral.

    Thus you regard anyone hired to write a computer game as being a party to immoral behaviour. You regard the idea of any writer hired to produce a piece of fiction as doing something wrong. Etecetera and etcetera. Unsurprisingly, I disagree. If two parties consent to something without coercion or deceit, then I find little basis for an act to be immoral unless they are harming an outside party. And as you said that intellectual property was okay when it was owned by the creator, then I see no difference externally whether how it is used is handled by one person or two in agreement, I also see no reason why that person can't exchange ownership for something else.

    It is not what the copyright or patent systems were designed for. It does not "spur innovation" to have anyone but the people who did the work own the IP.

    Yes it does. How many big budget movies do you think there would be if the backers couldn't own the rights to the movie in return for the massive amounts of money they give? Do you think a game like Dragon Age would exist if the ultimate product couldn't be owned by the people who paid a lot of money to writers, artists and programmers to create it? What do you think would be the effect on TV shows if every episode were owned not by the studio, but by the people who worked on the script for that particular episode. And don't forget the actors and the lighting people, the make-up people, the catering staff, the owner of the studios and the ones who leased the equipment. At a stroke, you've pulled the rug out from under most collaborative projects. What are people supposed to do, set up some elaborate on-going profit share scheme? But Bob the fourth camera man just wants to be paid a flat sum and go home. Sorry Bob - some guy on Slashdot says it would be immoral for you to cede all future rights to payment (aka sell your rights) in exchange for a fixed fee for your work on the project.

    More people and entities own IP who did NOT do the work than the other way around

    So? It's you who has an issue with that. I don't so long as the people who did the work were paid what they agreed in return f

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  43. Re:To quote Bugs Bunny: Of course, this means war. by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

    Free Speech was about people being able to safely speak their beliefs, not about distributing Dragon Age II or Iron Man for free.

    Free Speech is about speech (i.e. communication) in itself not being a crime, regardless of the content. It is a specific instance of the more general principle that the only actions deserving of punishment are those which cause harm to others. Copyright infringement is nothing but a specific case of communication, and does not harm anyone—a copyright holder is no worse off if people 'pirate' his or her work than he or she would be if they simply did without it, and may even benefit as a side-effect of the public exposure. To punish someone for such an act is a clear case of aggression.

    I'm still unconvinced the GP wasn't a parody. But are you telling me that you see no difference between someone's right to state their beliefs and someone downloading Iron Man 2? Seriously?

    As regards your argument about copyright infringement doing no harm, I note that you slipped in a caveat about people downloading as compared to not buying. What about where people download something instead of buying? I just spent £25 on a programming book for my Kindle. Most of that money will go straight to the author because it's an ebook without any shipping, printing costs, etc. But because it's an ebook, I'm a lot more likely to be able to get a pirated copy that would be the same. So if I'd pirated the book instead, would the author not be worse off? Of course they would. They have been harmed by piracy.

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  44. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

    You mean, like people who watch FREE over-the-air TV? Like those who take out books, CDs, and DVDs from the library for FREE? Those people?

    In all the instances you list, the producers of the media have been recompensed according to what they agreed.

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  45. Re:To quote Bugs Bunny: Of course, this means war. by muuh-gnu · · Score: 1

    > being able to safely speak their beliefs

    You are not able to "speak" your belief today if somebody has already spoken that belief. Thanks Cpt. Copyright.

    > taking something and refusing to pay

    Pirates are not actually "taking" or "refusing" anything. They are exchanging information amongst their peers. People have been sharing information for ages, they used to call it "learning from eachother". It was Cpt. Copyright who started with "lets errect toll booths between people" and then started chasing around people who tried to circumwent this kind of for-profit censorship.

    > I reject entirely that people writing are "archaic powers".

    They are not. Their business model of "selling copies and simultaneously ruin everyone who makes a copy himself" is archaic. It worked when making a copy of something was a valuable service and when nobody but other for-profit-businesses actually could make a copy. Nowadays everybody and their dog can make a copy because of new technology. Legislating that everyone has to pretend that we're still in the 50s while everbody is carrying 100GB size storage devices in their shirt pockets is archaic.

    > they deserve to get paid

    So they should invent a business model where their customers want to pay them. They are clinging to an old business model (of manufacturing and selling copies) which worked in the 50s but doesnt today, because people dont want to pay for copies. They can do copying themselves today, thanks. Technology eradicated the business model of "selling copies" but people refuse to adapt to reality and instead legislate a permanent "like back in the 50s"-situation.

    > at whatever price they and their customers can meet

    The arguing point of modern customers is something like: "I dont want to pay for copies. at all. I can make them myself. I dont want to pay for something I can do myself. And by the way, arent you the guy who tirelessly pushes for laws to ban private copying? Well fuck you, go and starve, I certainly wont buy anything you can offer."

    > and agree on

    Its impossible to argue with someone who refuses to acknowledge to himself that today everybody has a PC and refuses to abstain from using the "cp" command for the sole reason to enable somebody else to make a living by cp-ing abnd selling copies.

    > the biggest thing in the way of that is piracy

    Again, what you call "piracy" are simply people sharing stuff. People sending each other bits they like. People networking. The only reason for you to call this basic human behavior "piracy" is in order to associate it with violent ship capturing, i.e. to somehow couple it with a negative emotion to get an advantage in the discussion. You cant discuss something by beginning with "ok, lets discuss, but let me first stretagically rename a few things."

    Instead of inventing 1984esque names for stuff you dont like, acknowledge that the main problem of your business model is that people simply prefer sharing stuff amongst eachother instead of buying it over and over and over again from somebody (in this case: you) who permanently keeps threatening them with life-ruining penalties.

  46. Re:To quote Bugs Bunny: Of course, this means war. by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

    Instead of inventing 1984esque names for stuff you dont like, acknowledge that the main problem of your business model is that people simply prefer sharing stuff amongst eachother instead of buying it over and over and over again from somebody (in this case: you) who permanently keeps threatening them with life-ruining penalties.

    Okay, let's start at the end. Nowhere have I threatened or advocated threatening anyone with "life-ruining penalties." So drop that one right off. And as you have a problem with the term pirate (despite it being universally understood what is meant), I'll use the alternate term "freeloader", meaning one who lives for free of what others work / pay for. That's accurate to what a pirate does seeing as they download for free what the rest of us have funded the creation of by paying for it. As to the rest of your post:

    You are not able to "speak" your belief today if somebody has already spoken that belief. Thanks Cpt. Copyright.

    There's a big difference between someone having the right to speak their beliefs and downloading Iron Man 2. I also don't believe you are unable to see there is a difference between these two things.

    Pirates are not actually "taking" or "refusing" anything. They are exchanging information amongst their peers. People have been sharing information for ages, they used to call it "learning from eachother". It was Cpt. Copyright who started with "lets errect toll booths between people" and then started chasing around people who tried to circumwent this kind of for-profit censorship.

    Yes, copyright has to do with the abilty to profit from your work. Unlike you however, I don't stop my argument at the point that I have shown their is a profit motive as if a profit motive is intrinsically a bad thing. I continue on to ask whether a profit motive might actually be a good thing. And lo and behold, I think it is indeed good that those that produce a work can profit from it.

    So they should invent a business model where their customers want to pay them

    A business model where people want to give away their money when they don't have to? So obvious in retrospect - let's go do that now. And of course it will be successful enough to support big budget projects and it will scale down to private individuals who just want to sell their one-man computer game, song or novel.

    They are clinging to an old business model (of manufacturing and selling copies) which worked in the 50s but doesnt today, because people dont want to pay for copies.

    Actually the "old business model" is still being kept afloat by all of us who pay for our goods. If we didn't, the freeloaders would have a great deal less media to enjoy.

    They can do copying themselves today, thanks. Technology eradicated the business model of "selling copies" but people refuse to adapt to reality and instead legislate a permanent "like back in the 50s"-situation.

    There seems to be a recurrent strawman through out your post that people are paying for the process of copying and because copying is now cheaper than it was, they should not pay. Were people paying for the process of copying, then it would be equivalent to sell copies of static noise as to sell copies of Iron Man 2. This is not the case. The selling of copies is a means by which both the purchaser can receive the media and the media producer can receive payment in return. Clearly illegal downloading is not functionally equivalent as the media producer is not getting paid. It is not correct to say "people can do the copying themselves, thanks" and imply that an equivalent to the previous process has been found.

    Well fuck you, go and starve

    I'm certainly growing more and more optimistic about that business model where people want to give away their money. Thanks.

    Its impossible to argu

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  47. Re:To quote Bugs Bunny: Of course, this means war. by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

    But are you telling me that you see no difference between someone's right to state their beliefs and someone downloading Iron Man 2?

    Assuming that by "beliefs" you meant "political beliefs", there are all kinds of differences between the two, but none where it counts: neither act harms anyone, and thus neither act should be punished. Of course, Free Speech is not limited to political expression; it need not even be about one's true beliefs, although even that would be enough to cover communication of sufficiently-detailed facts to reconstruct the audiovisual elements of a movie. No act of communication alone, regardless of content, is deserving of punishment.

    As regards your argument about copyright infringement doing no harm, I note that you slipped in a caveat about people downloading as compared to not buying. What about where people download something instead of buying?

    That wasn't a caveat. If someone chooses to buy a copy of a work, the seller benefits. If someone chooses not to buy a copy the prospective seller is no better or worse off than they were before; they obviously receive no benefit, but neither to they suffer any harm. This is true regardless of whether the potential buyer chose to do without or simply obtained a copy by other means. It is also true regardless of whether the availability copies from other sources influenced the decision not to buy. Harm is measured by comparison to your state before the action, not the result which appears ideal from your point of view; otherwise competition and choosing to do without would have to be considered "harmful" as well.

    A good rule-of-thumb for "harm" is this: If you cannot tell that an action has occurred by considering only the state of your own property, the action cannot be considered harmful to you. Harm only occurs when someone affects the state of your property without your permission, interfering with your right to continue to use your property as you have in the past. Copyright infringement clearly fails this test; you cannot even know that it has occurred without examining the property of those accused of infringement.

    --
    "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
  48. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And I'm sure the producers, Director, Actors, and even the 'Key Grip' (WhateverTF that is) that worked on even the most 'pirated' movie have gotten paid. So what's your point?

    'They' get exactly the same amount of money whether:

    A) I 'pirate' the movie.

    or

    B) I don't buy tickets for the movie because they are too fucking expensive.

    Either way, they don't get anything from me. Am I somehow 'stealing' from them by not buying the movie?

  49. Re:Quit it with the "pirate" business, please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You yourself said:

    The accurate definition: Freeloader is one that gets their benefit from the work of others without recompensing those others.

    When I watch TV, I don't 'recompense' the producers of the shows I watch. Therefore, I must be freeloading.