Zimbabwe Professor Arrested and Tortured For Watching Online News Videos

An anonymous submitter wrote: "Disturbing reports have come out of Zimbabwe about how a professor who regularly held gatherings to discuss different news topics and social issues, was arrested, charged with treason and tortured for having the audacity to gather the regular group of about 45 people who discuss these things, and showing them some BBC and Al Jazeera news clips about the uprising in Egypt and Tunisia." Quote from the article: "Under dictator Robert Mugabe, watching internet videos in Zimbabwe can be a capital offense, it would seem. The videos included BBC World News and Al-Jazeera clips, which Gwisai had downloaded from Kubatana, a web-based activist group in Zimbabwe."

Comments

s/watch/show/

[Troll-Under-D'Bridge]

The headline is a bit deceptive. I think the good professor was arrested for showing the videos to other people. (Although it's still possible the people he showed it to were arrested, too.)

Re:s/watch/show/

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh awesome, phew.
For a second there, I didn't think they had a legitimate reason to torture the guy.
Thanks for clearing that up!

Re:s/watch/show/

[Anonymous Coward]

And knowing is half the battle!

Re:s/watch/show/

[jklovanc]

It is not only "still possible the people he showed it to were arrested" it is a fact. As the article stated, all 45 people at the meeting was arrested and charged.

Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

And not just a faceless human. Seriously, not flamebait. This is why the civilized world should act in force, and not just lamely sit around and ship food and medicine to these hellholes.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[h4rr4r]

Honestly, what can we do?

If we topple Mugabe, we will be seen the same way the Iraqi's see us, as what we are, an occupying force.

The people themselves need to be the ones to secure their own freedom.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Anonymous Coward]

If the people that live in these conditions and continue to bring new life into them can't be bothered to change them, why should I? Let them do as they will, so long as they leave me alone.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[couchslug]

Two words:

"Blackhawk Down"

The worst thing to introduce into a country freed from colonial domination would be any force with Caucasian soldiers.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

There is no such thing as "The People". If an occupation improves their situation, people will support it. If it worsens it, it will be rejected. I remember reading what a town elder said in "Generation Kill" - "We will build gold statues of president Bush up and down the main street as long as you give us proper sanitation and stay away from our women." Admittedly, that was out in the desert bush and the conditions inside the main cities are of course different, but it is probably representative for the situation in Africa.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[h4rr4r]

No one likes an occupation.
No one wants foreigners telling them how to run their nation.

Would they like us to build them power plants? Sure. Would they want us to give them running water? Of course. Do they want us forming their government for them the way we did in Afghanistan and Iraq? No way in hell.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Anonymous Coward]

So they want us to save them from the big bad dictator but they don't want us to stick around so another big bad dictator can't come into power?

You can't have it both ways.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

Responsibility or borders or rules doesn't really matter in the end, what matters is suffering. That makes the reason pure empathy, even if only to prevent future suffering. Empathy varies wildly between individuals however, and if you don't feel like I do - then you don't.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[C0R1D4N]

Then how about a UN force made up of Indians and East Asians? Maybe Brazil could contribute some troops. The wealthier caucasian countries could contribute materials and air/naval assets.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

These are people, not cretins. You don't think they'd be capable of making that distinction, especially if the positive effects of removing oppression where self-evident?

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

Who cares about cultural identity or national borders when you don't have enough to eat, your children won't receive a proper education, and your life and freedom in any case is at the whim and mercy of whoever has the guns?

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[jklovanc]

There is a huge difference between Iraq and Zimbabwe. In Zimbabwe the opposition party has win most of the recent elections but Mugabe will not give up power. Unlike Iraq where there were a number of violently competing faction vying for power there is already a viable elected replacement government in Zimbabwe. Take a look at the Movement for Democratic Change party. There was supposed to be a run off in the last election but the MDC candidate withdrew citing the probability of his supporters being murdered. Mugabe, like many African dictators, is in his last days of power and trying to hold on at all costs.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[h4rr4r]

Of course they don't then. Tive minutes after you fix the food and random death problems they will care.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[h4rr4r]

Sure, but letting his people get rid of him is better for everyone. We are not the world police, we are not going to make any friends by taking over yet another country.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[CohibaVancouver]

This is why the civilized world should act in force

The problem is that the 'civilized world' doesn't want to see its children shot and blown up saving some Africans on the other side of the world. My son is only 6 months old and I already sure as hell know I wouldn't want him risking his life 18 years from now in whatever despot nation is the hellhole du jour in 2029...

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Urza9814]

When did our options become limited to invasion or not doing a damn thing? How about we start with some diplomatic action? Or even just public demonstrations? No nation can survive on it's own. And dictators actually do sometimes care about how they look to the outside world - that's why they try to keep stuff like this silent.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[h4rr4r]

Well then, get your ass on a plane boy. Go fight the good fight.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

Why would they? The situation in Iraq resulted from there quite simply not being enough boots on the ground to keep the area safe and root out the warring forces kept in check by the Saddam regime. A top-rank general quit over this, referring to established doctrine on occupation and refusing to be involved. Everyone fell on each others throats, seeking power. That doesn't necessarily carry over to other situations, either for want of manpower or for the presence of powder-keg political situations.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[h4rr4r]

For the same reason you don't want me running your house.

The situation in Iraq resulted from us being there in the first fucking place. Before that you can thank the British for building a state out of a lot of separate groups that would rather not be together.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

Who cares about "friends"? If no-one steps up and forces justice and freedom, it won't happen. It doesn't matter who gives the order, or who holds the guns. If the situation is as described, the problem becomes even simpler, since it's easy to declare when the occupation will end - when the "good" party is in power, and the government has access to enough force to police the people in the area.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[xrobertcmx]

It might have been better if we (The US) hadn't just sat on our hands and let this nut job take power back in 79/80. If I recall correctly it was the UK which effectively handed him power. He ran Zanu PF which was more or less a terrorist group.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

If I went seriously ill, you'd be damn right I'd be happy if someone ran my house and prevented me from dying. And in a long-term scenario, if the bombs fell and you or anyone else managed to become a feudal lord or other autocratic ruler of some kind, offering the only available shelter from roving bandits and control over irrigation or such, I'd most certainly pledge allegiance as long as that wasn't worse than the bandits or starvation. I assume most other people would, as well.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Anonymous Coward]

How about we start with some diplomatic action? Or even just public demonstrations?

While I don't disagree with your sentiment, Mugabe has shown that he could care less about what the diplomats have to say about him, and prefers to use bullets during public demonstrations. That pretty much limits (the rest of the world's) choices to invasion, economic sanctions, and not doing a damn thing.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

You're right, of course - but from (my) European view, this has been tried and failed. At least from outside of Brussels, it looks like everything has slid into apathy and a status quo of food shipments and oppressive dictators setting the standards for what constitutes "human rights".

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[iamhassi]

this

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[MightyMartian]

I think we should put a $250 million price on Mugabe's head, payable upon verification.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[internettoughguy]

So they want us to save them from the big bad dictator but they don't want us to stick around so another big bad dictator can't come into power?

You can't have it both ways.

I suppose you've forgotten about Ngo Dinh Diem, Fulgencio Batista, Augusto Pinochet and so on, US interventionism doesn't prevent dictatorships, it creates them.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[mr100percent]

There are more choices than just "do nothing" or "invade with military." What about sanctions, diplomatic and economic pressure targeting Muagabe, arrest warrants from the ICC at the Hague?

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

Ignoring that I have ailments preventing me from serving (at least in the Swedish armed forces, but I could probably soldier in a kill-people position with a lot of physical training and being in a position where med supply isn't likely to be cut off) - What plane? Am I supposed to purchase one myself? And alongside whom? And with what guns and training?

More importantly while I realize that the situation isn't as simple as that, in cheering for armed intervention I don't really feel like I'm asking people to do "dirty things" I wouldn't do myself, in a moral or emotional sense at least - I realize that soldiers are people too. But you're right that I can't speak for them, and most soldiers seem to have a basic mentality quite far removed from mine.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

Don't you think that, while "right" probably doesn't factor into it, adults should be able to lay down their lives for a just cause if they choose? Although I agree that 18 is a low age as far as mental maturity goes, and I'm just barely 23.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[ghmh]

We are not the world police

I thought you were? Maybe this is a job for M..mm..Matt Damon!

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Urza9814]

Yes...I have noticed much of this myself here in America as well. So much so that I'm quite confident that apathy is the greatest enemy mankind has ever seen.

But still, it is worth keeping in mind that rights are not something that just happens. They aren't given to you, you have to take them. In a case like this, I would say that means going out and raising awareness, and harassing your government until they do something about it.
Also, the apathy may seem worse than it is - because people sit there, not doing anything, because they all feel that nobody else gives a damn. Everything has to start somewhere.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[the linux geek]

The US supported Diem's removal, although not his execution. He was ultimately replaced with Nguyen Van Thieu, who was crazy and autocratic but not nearly as outright evil.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[the linux geek]

It would be unpopular in the US, due to fiscal reasons, and internationally, because the Western Europeans and their friends seem to think that killing is evil, No Matter What. These are the same morons that bitched about Saddam Hussein's execution.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

But this isn't a government the way you and I would think about it. If you harassed it, you would be ignored or shot. Or do you mean harassing my own government/citizenry to take action?

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares about cultural identity or national borders when you don't have enough to eat, your children won't receive a proper education, and your life and freedom in any case is at the whim and mercy of whoever has the guns?

As bad as a place you don't live looks to you, there will be people who lived in that place for generations who consider it normal. Not everyone will, and the percentage of people who do will vary by culture, religion, and knowledge of the rest of the world.

I know that most of the "live free or die" libertarians I meet are all talk, and would not take even a small risk of death for freedom. But a few of them mean it. There are people like that in every culture.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Urza9814]

I mean harassing your own government/citizenry. Harassment of the Zimbabwe government is up to the people living there - and yes, they damn well better be serious about it if they decide to do so. But you do not face such risks. Hell, harass the Zimbabwe government too while you're at it - just don't go there to do it in person.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[jelizondo]

You forgot to provide examples of US support for the removal of Batista and Pinochet or to deny USG and US Corporations in installing them in the first place.

Also please provide said examples for General Videla (Argentina), Anastasio Somoza (Guatemala), Trujillo and Belaguer (Dominican Republic), this last one installed at gun-point by US Marines...And that is only in Latin America, if we throw in Asia and Africa, whew! you would have a lot of work.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Frangible]

How have sanctions ever done anything useful? All they do is hurt the residents of his country -- which are literally starving and require food aid programs to survive. Sanctions or not, Mugabe will be living large and laughing loud.

I'm not advocating military intervention, btw. I don't really see that helping much either.

Similarly, I don't see how putting trade sanctions on Libya is going to do anything but hurt your average Libyans.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Frangible]

Option D -- proxy war!

Not that there's enough organized opposition to arm, and not that it's guaranteed to be any better.

Given that it's Africa, the rest of the world will be choosing "not do a damn thing".

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Frangible]

There is absolutely NO guarantee that direct military intervention is going to result in something better, either short or long term. There are examples from history when it has worked, but there are many more examples where it has failed. Do the people of Zimbabwe, as a whole, even want our help?

And frankly, we just can't afford to keep invading and rebuilding every country in the world with a shitty government.

It would be nice if the European colonial powers took responsibility for their former colonies and the instability, violence, and poverty that colonialism and their exploitation caused -- but they haven't, and they won't.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[LordLimecat]

Well, it would help if Wikileaks didnt place his only serious competition in jeopardy...

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Frangible]

It doesn't matter if they do or not. Consider Fallujah, Iraq. The chief instigators were Al Queda in Iraq, headed by Zarqawi, and miscellaneous foreign fighters from Saudi Arabia, Iran (yes, even though they're Shiite), Chechnya, etc. How did these bad dudes gain power and force the local inhabitants to work for them? They were willing to do what we weren't. They would torture and kill anyone who worked with coalition forces, such as the Iraqi National Guard headed by LtCol Suleiman (RIP), and they just straight-up mass murdered the Iraqi National Police detachment. In order to maintain power, radical clerics became more radical, and moderate ones were murdered or lost their power base. Former Baathists who were still loyal to Iraq's Saddam also got in on the action.

As one Iraqi citizen in Fallujah said, "If we help the Americans, we get killed. If we help the mujahideen, we get arrested and released."

There are tremendous politics and other forces in effect; thinking everyone will be grateful is wishful thinking.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[pwizard2]

If an occupation improves their situation, people will support it. If it worsens it, it will be rejected.

Since it is impossible to tell in advance how something like that would turn out, it is best to leave other countries alone. If that country's people want a change in government, let them fight for it themselves. That way, they will value it and the struggle will strengthen them as a people. If we (the US or any other country in a position to do so) interfere in another country's business, we weaken ourselves by expending resources that could be put to other use and we weaken that country as well by robbing from them the strength they would have gained if they had handled a revolution themselves.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

Don't generalize. I'm Swedish, and I think most people just don't want to think about stuff like that, so they adopt whatever principles that's most convenient to them, and get defensive when they are challenged since they are forced to think about horrible things. Developing an intellectually coherent morality isn't something that comes automatically - and notably, in Swedish society at least, flaunting views like this based on pure emotion is considered something very profane and impolite.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Anonymous Coward]

"seriously ill"? Sure YOU see them that way. Do they?

If you called the cops, and after solving your immediate issue they stayed, and then invited some of their buddies over, and then fucking started moving their furniture in, and occasionally beat the fuck out of one of your kids for breaking the house rules, which incidentally they'd started making up for you... I suspect you'd not take it in stride.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Concerned Onlooker]

Well, in general the people who are opposed to killing are right. They are right from an ethical standpoint but they are also right from a practical standpoint. Killing servers to make the killed a martyr, and thus a rallying point, for the supporters left behind. If you really want to punish a dictator keep him in prison for life where he is treated just like any another criminal.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

Suffering can gain you strength as a person by toughening you, and gives you the ability to understand the reality of it, but all I have seen suffering do to groups of people is weld them together, and I don't really consider that a good thing since it leads to tribalism and nationalism. "Us" vs. "Them" thinking. While I think I don't actually understand what the words even mean, I don't think "social solidarity" is a necessary or even good thing in society.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

Sure, that'd be horrible. And effectively, that's the situation the Zimbabweans find themselves in. Are you saying that you'd let my hypothetical kid get beaten up if you could prevent it?

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

What, if anything, would have (could have) made a difference? Or does it seem to you like it truly would have gone to hell no-matter-what?

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[jklovanc]

It would not require a full fledged invasion to help Zimbabwe. All that would be required one SEAL tam to go in, apprehend Mugabe,present him to The Hague on charges of Crimes against Humanity and neighbouring African peacekeepers to protect the citizens in case the military or Mugabe's tribe gets out of hand.

The US is not the world police but who will help people under oppressive regimes? I thought that one of the tag lines for the US was "Bastion of Democracy". Zimbabwe was one step from democracy in the last election but Mugabe said no. He has ignored leaders from neighbouring countries calling for him to step down. He has ignored the power sharing agreement brokered by South Africa. He won't go if not forced. The people of Zimbabwe tried with votes but do not have the guns to do it; the US does. The US alone? No. The US with support and manpower from African nations? definitely.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[khallow]

How about we start with some diplomatic action? Or even just public demonstrations?

I thought you were going to advocate something other than "not doing a damn thing". For what it's worth, how the US treats Cuba (prohibiting companies which do business with the regime from doing business in the US) provides some sort of intermediate sanction. Things like no fly zones (how the US treated Iraq prior to the Iraqi invasion) are another. These seem pathologically passive-aggressive to me, but it's a start, I suppose.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[a_hanso]

I'm sorry, but your son will be fighting SkyNet.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[sjames]

How about just kill him and leave?

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[afxgrin]

How many civilians do we watch die before foreign nations intervene? 100? 1000? 10000? how about 100,000? Surely when it's over 100,000 murders the UN security council would have made some course of action? That's no longer 'interfering', it's stopping an on-going genocide. I would think those people would be forever grateful.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[pwizard2]

all I have seen suffering do to groups of people is weld them together, and I don't really consider that a good thing since it leads to tribalism and nationalism. "Us" vs. "Them" thinking.

Yes, suffering on such a scale does tend to bond people together, but I fail to see why you consider tribalism and nationalism to be a bad thing. It gives groups and nations a distinct identity and character. Why should that be needlessly sacrificed?

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Securityemo]

Intuitively, because creating strong social groups in connection to government in my mind seems like a form of corruption. And you could ask why you should sacrifice the (structural) unity of mankind for the uniqueness of national and tribal characters. Again, I suspect that I somehow lack the ability to intuitively understand "social dynamics" on an emotional level, and in that case I'm selfishly biased towards a society without strong social bonds since it plays to my strengths as a person.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[vakuona]

I think you overestimate the SEALs ability, or underestimate the ability of Mugabe's protection service, or both. And this creates a power vacuum too, and we know what happens when there is a power vacuum in a country (see Iraq). Unfortunately, getting rid of Mugabe is only half the battle.

The sanctions were supposed to help get the people get rid of Mugabe, but unfortunately, Mugabe just blames the US and Britain for the sanctions. So the argument is won with the less enlightened.

The biggest reason a revolution is hard in Zimbabwe is that Zimbabwe is by and large a rural country, and rural in the African context generally means uninformed, not well educated and poor. Plus the folks in the rural areas saw the brunt of the civil war in the fight against the previous minority regime, and they were genuinely happy that Mugabe 'won' back then. So you have an inbuilt advantage for him electorally. The opposition basically cleans out the towns, but it's so much easier to rig elections when you don't have to fudge every vote. So the guy is damned hard to get rid of!

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[vakuona]

I think he is making the point that because the West has adopted a moral code of looking for the high ground, they have a big disadvantage when it comes to seeking local cooperation in Iraq. People don't want to die. Cooperating with Americans gets you killed. Perhaps Americans needed to find a way to make life really dangerous for the bad guys, like keep Saddam's old army structures which in all likelihood had a built in opposition to the likes of Al Qaeda. The Iraqis could be more ruthless, whilst the US watches over them and works behind the scenes to protect the general public. This also gives legitimacy to the local armed forces in the eyes of the locals, and win win. The most boneheaded move the 'coalition' pulled was to disband the army.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Alain Williams]

There is a huge difference between Iraq and Zimbabwe. ....

Yes: the difference is that Iraq is sitting on a lot of oil, Zumbabwe isn't. One is of interest to the west, the other isn't.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Anonymous Coward]

Are we not a occupying force in Iraq?

You think iraq was about WMD's? No tony blair OPENLY addmited they would have found another 'excuse' if they knew WMD's didnt exist in iraq.

You think this is about bringing down a dictatorship? There are many dictators in the middle east the USA has supported most of them.

Hiliary Clinton reffered to Mubarak as a family friend (before the uprising) And the USA gave egypt 1.5bn military aid.

Jimmy Carter shaking Saddams hand and offering him weapons to run a war against iran:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war (A war that started with no provacation from the iranians and led to the present hate between iranians and the west. Understandably)

You think this was about terrorism?
In that case the following countries should also be attacked: Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Palastine, Syria, Lebenon, Algeria, Iran.
Not to mention the fact that terrorism in the middle east, europe and america has risen SHARPLY since both wars started.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[FuckingNickName]

A brief glance at any period in history suggests that even when a population doesn't have enough to eat, its children won't receive a pproper education, and its freedom is at the whim and mercy of whoever has the guns, they are still bothered about identity and borders.

See also every mammal.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[FuckingNickName]

All that would be required one SEAL tam to go in, apprehend Mugabe

UN and OAS - they have their place, I guess. But when in doubt - send the Marines!

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[BotnetZombie]

Killing is wrong. Even if it's Saddam's head on the chopping block.
And a man who calls everyone that thinks this way a moron, says a lot about himself.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[TheRaven64]

You don't have to take over the country. First, you recognise the party that won the election as the legitimate government of the country. You allow ambassadors representing that party into your country, you revoke diplomatic privileges from anyone loyal to the illegitimate regime. The legitimate government then issues a request for military assistance to resist a coup. You send in a special forces team to extract Mugabe and any of his supporters who are likely to cause trouble. You then extradite him back to Zimbabwe to stand trial after the MDC has consolidated power. The total military effort from outside is (at most) a few hundred soldiers.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[TheRaven64]

They've got to be protected,
All their rights respected,
'Till somebody we like can be elected.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Hognoxious]

If an occupation improves their situation, people will support it. If it worsens it, it will be rejected.

Clearly nonsense, as the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan proves; some people just don't like the infidels near their holy sites.

Even in post WW2 Germany there were sporadic attacks on the US & British forces, who were a more benign presence than the previous incumbents or the alternatives.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Hognoxious]

Who cares about cultural identity or national borders when you don't have enough to eat, your children won't receive a proper education, and your life and freedom in any case is at the whim and mercy of whoever has the guns?

Plenty of people support the Taliban. Do you think that's because they look like the most likely organization to solve the problems you mention?

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Opportunist]

This is why it worked in Europe after WW2. The situation could not have been more favorable for the US.

1) The population was fed up with the war, the Nazis and everything. Even US (hell, for some even USSR) occupation was considered better than that. That situation is still there, and you will notice that (as in your example) many people will welcome the US as a liberation force, even if it means occupation.

2) The US sent aid. And I don't mean "built some factories". They sent food, they sent medication, they sent clothing. They sent what the people needed to survive and the people LOVED the US for that. You can still, 60 years after, hear people talk very favorably about the US and ignore anything they have done recently, simply because of that.

3) There was the "evil Russian" right next door. That occupation force (which lasted 'til the 1990s, btw, and some bases still exist) was seen as a safeguard against the aggressors across the border. That's something we lack today.

4) The US showed that there is keen interest in handing the country back to its people. And here's where the whole thing starts to crumble. Now, the US cannot do that because of the 'terrorists'. And they only exist because they omitted step 2: Win the people, not just the war. After any war is over, there will of course still be sympathizers for the old regime or even a different regime. They are, though, usually the minority. A war against people who despise your government more than their own cannot be won. For reference, see Russia vs. Afghanistan. And the outlook was very favorable at the end of the conquest of Iraq, there was a very strong pro-US sentiment in the country. What the US failed to do was to shower the people with supplies to clearly show them that they are there to aid, help and be the friend of the Iraqis. Building factories ain't going to cut it when around the corner there's the guy from Al Quaida handing out bread.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Anonymous Coward]

True, extracting him would cause an unnecessary amount of casualties. Just shoot the bastard.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[MightyMartian]

If you were handed the ability to kill Hitler in, say, 1941, would you stand on this principle?

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[BotnetZombie]

Knowing what I know about his future actions, I might. But my reason would be that one wrongdoing would undo a much bigger wrongdoing.
Saddam was a prisoner when he was executed, so it isn't really comparable.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe if we keep assassinating tinpot dictators, the world will run out of them? That's gotta be better than the farce in the Middle East.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[jklovanc]

There will be no power vacuum. There already is a leader ready to take over; Morgan Tsvangirai who is currently Prime Minister but has no power. He would have won the run off had it been fair and without violence or intimidation.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[jklovanc]

Nice sentiment right up until a soldier at a polling station points a gun at you and says "Vote Mugabe or die". Mugabe does not respect rights or the democratic process. He only respects power and in Zimbabwe, he has it all.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently a lot of people care in spite of those things. Just look at the situation in Iraq. They don't want us there, no matter what good we do. Why stay?

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Anonymous Coward]

You're underestimating Mugabes supporters. There are far more than a few hundred of them and they're all over the country. I'd hate to think what they'd do to MDC supporters in retaliation.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering we have no idea what would have happened in the world had Hitler been killed and the majority of the war avoided, I would opt not to kill him. For all we know Hitler was the best thing to happen to us. The was resulted in a jump forward in nuclear technology and gave us all a great big reason to try and get along. Anyone who wants to go back in history and prevent events from unfolding is an idiot.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[tqk]

I don't think "social solidarity" is a necessary or even good thing in society.

It seems to be working quite well in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, ...

You don't need to be a socialist or communist to notice you've things in common with your neighbors, and the USA's been through this before itself. I say, stand back and enjoy the show. Every tyrant going down is a terriffic plus for all of us. "Sic semper tyrranus!"

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[tqk]

Yes, suffering on such a scale does tend to bond people together, but I fail to see why you consider tribalism and nationalism to be a bad thing.

Really?!? So, you don't read history too?

Obvious: I strongly suggest you re-read Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". "To Kill a Mockingbird" is good too.

Of course, tribalism and nationalism are bad. How can you not know this? Open your eyes.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[tqk]

If no-one steps up and forces justice and freedom, it won't happen.

No, it won't. Yet today, Tunisia and Egypt are now free-er.

Zimbabweans can free themselves all by themselves. Foreign intervention, unnecessary. I look forward to seeing pictures of Mugabe and Kadaffi hanging from meathooks, a la Mussolini. Have fun!

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[tqk]

I strongly agree. Also consider, "Shivving Nazis in the back on the streets of Warsaw." That's the attitude this sort of thing takes. It'd be fun!

Make your oppressors lives hell. Make 'em think they're in Stalingrad!

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[BitZtream]

Seals are in the Navy, not the Marines.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[tqk]

Anyone who wants to go back in history and prevent events from unfolding is an idiot.

You realize this includes Einstein? He concluded that writing that note to Roosevelt was one of the worst things he'd done.

I disagree.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[tqk]

For all we know Hitler was the best thing to happen to us.

I think the millions of civillian casualties would disagree. Given the chance, I'd take him out in a heartbeat, and exhort others to do same if I fail.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[jklovanc]

Egypt was relatively blood free because the military sided with the People. Libya has yet to play out and there may be a very bloody battle to get Qaddafi out. Mussolini was hanged after attempting to escape when the Allies invaded Italy. Wait a minute, that was a forgien power invading a country, Italy, to liberate it from its elected leader; interesting. I guess it works sometimes.

Zimbabwe is even worse as the military has sided with Mugabe and have all the guns. The people of Zimbabwe are much less connected than the people of Egypt or Libya. Anyone organizing is easy to pick out and kill; it has happened. Any attempt at peaceful protest in Zimbabwe will be met with bullets and bloodshed. There is no one protecting the people of Zimbabwe.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Raenex]

US interventionism doesn't prevent dictatorships, it creates them.

West Germany?

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[tqk]

Zimbabwe is even worse as the military has sided with Mugabe and have all the guns.

Yabut, the military of any country cares less for their politicos than we do, on average. Write a new constitution, then let's get on with it! Hand back power from military ("Keep me out of it!"), then carry on.

Tunisia and Cairo stood up to their military, and their militaries refused to fight their own people. Take heart!

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[jklovanc]

I really wish you would read some history before you equate the forces controlled by Mugabe with any other military on earth. We are not talking about India where the leaders have a conscience. Mugabe had his militia murder an opposition leader's wife buy burning her to death after cutting off her hands and feet. Mugabe is an animal and his militia is ruthless and probably well paid. If someone starts to write a new constitution they are DEAD; simple as that.

The population of Zimbabwe is only 12.5M and mostly rural. You can easily control the country by controlling the few cities with a relatively small number of loyal troops. Most people in Zimbabwe are more concerned with finding food than fighting. That is not to say they do not want freedom but they don't have the means to get it.

The point is the military has already done horrendous things and know if they do not retain power many of them will be fired, sent to jail or executed. Lets see, shoot a few farmers or go to jail. It seems to be an easy choice for them

You seem to forget Libya. They are standing up to the military with some rebel military of their own and many are dying. In Zimbabwe it may be much worse as the people have less support; it would be a slaughter.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[TheRaven64]

Whoosh.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[Hognoxious]

Hitler had about as much strategic sense as a sausage sandwich[1], and he drove many brilliant scientists - some of whom were key in creating the atom bomb - out of the country.

So now imagine WW2 with somebody competent in charge of the krauts.

[1] Churchill was almost as bad, but at least he had Alanbrooke who managed to make him see sense. Sometimes.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[tqk]

Hitler had about as much strategic sense as a sausage sandwich[1], and he drove many brilliant scientists - some of whom were key in creating the atom bomb - out of the country.

So now imagine WW2 with somebody competent in charge of the krauts.

Why assume there'd be a war? The Wehrmacht didn't want a war. Hitler did.

Re:Oh, look it's someone we can relate to

[mr100percent]

The US and UN have announced sanctions on the leadership, not touching the country's businesses or citizens.

Wasn't this pretty much expected?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mugabe, feeling the aftershocks from recent - and current - events elsewhere in the world, wants to demonstrate that he is not the lightweight, half-assed dictator that Kadafi is.

We await in fear for his next vulgar display of power.

Re:Wasn't this pretty much expected?

[Anonymous Coward]

This time for africa. WakaWakaWakaWakaWakaWakaWakaWakaWakaWakaWakaWaka.

This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone.

[Anonymous Coward]

Manning, Assange, everyone in that concentration camp the US has build. All political opponents. Easy to verify also, hence the lack of proof and fair trails. This article seems like selected indignation to be honest. Sure it's bad, but this guy got tortured once... the US does this every day to many hundrerds, if nog thousands of people. At least this guy got to talk the press about it. He actually got a better treatment than the self-proclaimed good-guy of the world gives him. And to be honest... it's no surprise to most people any more that torture by Zimbabwe is better than 'justice' in the US.
So my US friends, instead of going into an open and fair debat, I wish you all good luck with just ignoring the truth and mod this troll. As usual here.

Traded racist white rule for evil black psycho

[judeancodersfront]

life doesn't always work out as planned.

Re:Traded racist white rule for evil black psycho

[Anonymous Coward]

He's racist, too, or at least xenophobic.

Re:Traded racist white rule for evil black psycho

[Anonymous Coward]

And they got the worst end of the deal.

I think it's now obvious to pretty well everyone that the blacks are incapable of running their own societies at any level greater than a small tribe.

There are NO functional democracies or modern states in Africa, none at all.

The obvious solution is to reinstate White rule over the Blacks, with a few added safeguards, until they develop sufficiently to be allowed self determination.

Scoff all you like, even the blacks recognise that life was far, far better under benevolent White rule than under the genocidal, homicidal atrocity of the black.

Most blacks would welcome back the days of prosperity and stability given to them by the Whites.

The real problem will be, persuading the Whites to return.

Re:Traded racist white rule for evil black psycho

[vakuona]

I don't think he is racist. And not because I support him, because I don't. I think he is using race to further an agenda, which in my book makes him worse than a racist.

Mugabe: Proof that Carter was worst Prez ever

[Anonymous Coward]

Jimmy Carter gave us Robert Mugabe, amongst a bunch of other failures.

Rant all you want about George W. Bush. Every last one of Bush II's major policy decisions - Gitmo, troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, Patriot Act, "illegal" wiretaps, tax rates - has been validated by Obama. Gawd, that's gotta HURT Bush haters.

Professor was executed for watching videos

[Burning1]

In the same way that Mubarak was overthrown by a bunch of guys hanging out and talking loudly.

Re:Mugabe: Proof that Carter was worst Prez ever

[h4rr4r]

What do you mean validated?

Surprise, surprise, the new corporatist puppet has the same dance as the old one. What a fucking shock!

Colonialism gave us Robert Mugabe, Carter was just the one standing around at the time. Not saying he is blameless, just pointless to bring him up.

Thank god.

[a whoabot]

Thank god Mugabe and his supporters overthrew those white supremacists so many years ago, and now the people of Zimbabwe can live in freedom and security.

Re:Thank god.

[h4rr4r]

They would not have had freedom and security if they left the white folks in charge either. So other than non-sequitur what ideas have you got?

Re:Thank god.

[a whoabot]

It's a non-sequitur to point out that the regime which overthrew the last regime while promising a better political/social order has not delivered.

Okay then...

I'm sorry I don't have the silver bullet for the country's woes. An initial idea might be the removal of the Mugabe regime. Pointing out the faults of that regime might actually be a start in the removal of it, actually.

Re:Thank god.

[sycodon]

Yes, but they wouldn't be starving and being hunted down by packs of men with machetes.

Re:Thank god.

[Izeickl]

With whites in power no mass rapes and killing also they were not starving like now, as often mentioned they went from Africas breadbasket to basket case.

Mugabe

[MarkvW]

Even somebody as awful as Mugabe has supporters enough to keep him in power. Same with Hitler. Same with Saddam.

The trick to being a good dictator is to satisfy a hard-core minority of your supporters so that they will control the majority.

Re:Mugabe

[Anonymous Coward]

In the case of Mugabe, and even a lot of American politicians, it's as simple as "hate gays? Me too. Vote for me!"

Re:Mugabe

[antifoidulus]

The trick to being a good dictator is to satisfy a hard-core minority of your supporters so that they will control the majority.

You mean the army. Thats pretty much how most of the dictators roll, they wrest control of the army away from any civilian government and the rest is cake. Thats definitely how the North Korean regime stays in power. No matter how big the personality cult, I would be willing to bet that if Kim Jong Il pissed off the wrong general he would be meeting an "unfortunate accident" in the very near future.

Re:Mugabe

[DesScorp]

Even somebody as awful as Mugabe has supporters enough to keep him in power. Same with Hitler. Same with Saddam.

The trick to being a good dictator is to satisfy a hard-core minority of your supporters so that they will control the majority.

Which is precisely why invading, even in a humanitarian cause, is a non-starter. Even though we'd literally be coming to rescue them, Mugabe's folks would start screaming "White Colonialism!" and we'd be in an African Vietnam.

Nope, these people chose Mugabe years ago, and now they're stuck with him. So they can either A) overthrow him, B) trick Western intelligence agencies into believing they have WMD's, or C) lay in the bed they've made.

Re:Mugabe

[DesScorp]

In the case of Mugabe, and even a lot of American politicians, it's as simple as "hate gays? Me too. Vote for me!"

In the case of Mugabe, it's "Hate Whitey? Keep me in power or he's coming back".

Re:Mugabe

[Alex Belits]

Actually most "dictators" satisfy a majority. Not loved and not even necessarily respected, but they are seen as acceptable, or at least better than alternatives. Saddam was an example of this (and actually demonstrated to be better than alternatives, as alternative is what will happen once Americans will leave -- everyone is afraid of that).

Then, there is an opposition. It may be anything. It may be a large group with legitimate grievances, but it also may be minority that was oppressed for centuries with no relationship to "dictator" or rival ethnic group, religious cult, etc. Often it's political opportunists that use "democracy" slogan in the same way Americans use "think of the children!" to promote their personal goals. Sometimes it's a local group of political losers who have no hope for local support, so they whore themselves to US (or whatever other power happens to be active in the region) -- ironically those often have blatantly xenophobic official slogans but expect to be brought into power by foreigners. Often there are no "democratic" slogans involved at all, a random gang is fighting to declare itself sovereign rulers of their stomping grounds by presenting themselves as defenders of some ethnicity, along the way fueling hatred toward it, racism and discrimination.

And then there are seriously confused people whose only knowledge of outside world comes from carefully planned American propaganda poured into the country by recently mentioned VoA, RFE/RL, etc. They literally expect US to be paradise on Earth where everyone lives in a mansion, makes living by writing novels and drives a truck to a grocery store where there is never a line at the checkout. The latter better SHOULD be kept from foreign influence, as arguing with them is about as effective as debunking Microsoft marketing people in every troll thread here.

Re:Mugabe

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually Hitler and the Nazi's satisfied almost the entire German population

Re:Mugabe

[thaig]

Dictators keep power with force, actually. They are respected as in fear. They may once have been seen as a better alternative but now that they entrenched they don't.

The US is a paradise on earth by comparison. I was born in Zimbabwe and I've been to America and it's pretty obvious why people try to emigrate. They emigrate to South Africa, get sent back and try again. Paradise is having a chance to earn a living.

Re:Mugabe

[Anonymous Coward]

Far from the entire population of his expanded Reich, though. Brilliant strategy there: piss off the Eastern Europeans when he could have won them over by being better than Stalin.

Re:Mugabe

[Opportunist]

For a while. With a strategy that any idiot could have done (well, one idiot had the balls to actually do it): Spend money on public projects, hire millions of workers, then start a war for resources so you can balance your failing budget and put the workers that have nothing better to do now into the military.

Thinking about it... That strategy still seems to work.

Re:Mugabe

[Alex Belits]

Dictators keep power with force, actually. They are respected as in fear. They may once have been seen as a better alternative but now that they entrenched they don't.

"Entrenched" and "keep power by force" are two mutually exclusive possibilities. On top of that, no one can sit on bayonets -- at some point exerting any force takes more resources than allows for any kind of leadership, and "dictator" is overthrown, usually by someone much worse. It's a nice fantasy for many people that a political figure that they hate, is only in position of power because he constantly kills people who challenge him, but usually any "dictator" is supported by a large political machine, only in name different from one ruling over "democratic" societies.

Paradise is having a chance to earn a living.

So actual problem is poverty, not any particular details about a "dictator".

Re:Mugabe

[tqk]

Spend money on public projects, hire millions of workers, then start a war for resources so you can balance your failing budget and put the workers that have nothing better to do now into the military.

WWII: Ten million innocent civillian bystanders later, hundreds of thousands of Allied and Axis casualties later, hundreds of thousands doomed to slow deaths by radiation poisoning, ... Followed by a few decades (Cold War) of deadly indecision, ...

Methinks you underestimate the cost of the enterprise.

Nobody wins in war. One side loses less than the other, but that's all, and that's the best that can happen.

Goal of the UN to oust repressive regimes?

[Anonymous Coward]

If this is not a UN goal then it has no legitimacy, as if it ever had any to begin with.

1 down(Mubarak), 1 in progress(Qaddafi)
http://www.parade.com/dictators/

Re:Goal of the UN to oust repressive regimes?

[CohibaVancouver]

If this is not a UN goal then it has no legitimacy

The UN doesn't have an army. Who would the UN send into the repressive regimes to oust them? Who do you propose should get shot at / blown up and otherwise killed in the name ousting the repressive regimes?

Re:Goal of the UN to oust repressive regimes?

[h4rr4r]

And if we go after Mugabe, who do we work on next?
I bet the Chinese will not be big fans of these plans.

Re:Goal of the UN to oust repressive regimes?

[Securityemo]

UN peacekeeper troops consists of troops volunteered from the constituent nations armies.

Re:Mugabe: Proof that Carter was worst Prez ever

[artor3]

Gitmo can't be shut down because Americans are too spineless to lock up the prisoners on our soil.
Troops in Iraq are being drawn down responsibly. It was a mistake to go in, but that doesn't mean we should make it worse by yanking everyone out at once.
Troops in Afghanistan were always supported by virtually everyone.
The tax rates were extended because the fascist GOP held unemployment benefits hostage. "Give us billions in tax cuts, or we let millions of innocent people die in the streets!"
I also note that you don't even mention the unmitigated disasters that are Medicare Part D, No Child Left Behind, and a full-hearted embrace of torture.

I'll give you the Patriot Act and the wiretaps. Still, the balance is very heavily against your boy Bush. When even Republican sweethearts like Donald Trump are calling him the worst president in American history, it takes a special kind of willful ignorance to pretend he was anything but a catastrophe.

Re:Mugabe: Proof that Carter was worst Prez ever

[judeancodersfront]

No actually colonialism was traded for Mugabe. Carter was for anything but white rule and let the country go under a dictator.

midwest declares uFraUD vs. corepirate nazis

[Anonymous Coward]

many are considering shoe throwing (among other things) to express their dismay at the 'kick 'em when they're down' attitude of our domestic pharaohs.

Re:Mugabe: Proof that Carter was worst Prez ever

[h4rr4r]

I must have been unclear. What I mean was Mugabe gained power as the end result of colonialism.

Let the country go under a dictator, was he supposed to invade? Do you also blame the German Chancellor at the time and the Swedish King or are only American presidents supposed to prevent dictators ?

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Jeremi]

the US does this every day to many hundrerds, if nog thousands of people.

Citation? Evidence? Anything?

30 years ago

[Vinegar Joe]

Mugabe was the darling of the Left. But you know something? The people of Zimbabwe were safer, freer and better fed under Ian Smith.

Re:30 years ago

[Anonymous Coward]

Judging by your posting history, it would appear that you're not particularly fond of black people.
Right?

Re:30 years ago

[Frangible]

Yep. Countdown to someone calling you a racist in 5... 4.... anyway, Rhodesia wasn't perfect, but under Mugabe's "enlightened" slaughter of the white man, things went from being Africa's breadbasket as Rhodesia to widespread starvation that aid programs struggle to meet. The murdered whites' land was given to his cronies that didn't know the first thing about farming -- they were soldiers, thugs, and death squads, not agriculturalists.

Mugabe has been doing this sort of thing for a very, very long time. How it's any surprise to anyone is beyond me.

Go to Wikipedia and look at Mugabe's list of honorary degrees -- most of which have now been withdrawn -- and the comments people made when awarding them to him. He hasn't changed. The people who laughed at and support his earlier genocide are now just realizing that Mugabe has never been a nice guy, at all.

I do not support apartheid or white minority rule, but there are better ways to move the country forward than murder of all political opposition and everyone of a certain skin color. Yes, the white minority governments in Africa did this as well, but it was wrong when they did it, and it is wrong now. I don't see how the tragedy that was colonialism in any way justifies his actions.

Re:30 years ago

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly!!

I think the only realistic solution to Africas never ending woes is the reinstatement of White rule over the continent, until the blacks advance sufficiently to enable self determination.

Re:30 years ago

[sycodon]

I don't really think it is a black vs. white thing.

Race is used as just another weapon to enable murdering thugs.They come in all colors and use race, religion and ethnic back ground to gain power.
Move Zimbabwe a few thousand miles north and east and you get Bosnia. Go back down a few thousand miles and you get an Islamic dictatorship.

The sick thing is that some people seem to be so blinded by P.C. they can't recognize murdering thugs because of the race, color or ethnic background of the murdering thug.

Re:30 years ago

[Securityemo]

It isn't political correctness per se, it's just that it's the thing keeping their mind off the harsh realities of the world. Of course, people who do face these "harsh realities" seems to often have other mental or emotional flaws.

Re:30 years ago

[analyst-cz]

Exactly. And this is why I would especially in the countries with Zimbabwe-like historical background vote for complete trade cut-off. Even humanitarian, call me unethical should you want. These days North Africa events shows, that nothing will move, when civilized (?) countries step back before intimidation and basically feed population of otherwise incapable totalitarian despots. Once this "humanitarian help" falls below sufficient level, the things moves and (even with some ((un)necessary ?) casualties) turns to the better future. So conclusion, so-called humanists are collaborators (or at least unwilling supporters) of non-democratic rulers (not all and not under any circumstances, off course !).

Other such a county is North Korea, where people should either die of starving (solving the problem anyways - call me a cynical one) or (and more probably by me) move and through the rulers away, should there not be a massive food supplies sent every year (if I remember well, it is more than 50% of yearly consumption after all).

Re:30 years ago

[Anonymous Coward]

This is how the US defeated the Castro regime, isn`it ? Oh, wait....

Re:30 years ago

[Ragica]

I've heard nothing but bad about Mugabe over the years -- and I have non-white inlaws from there. However, I don't really know all that much about the place. But reading over the Wikipedia Mugabe page I found the section on "Social Programs" especially interesting. From the indicators reported there, things seem to have improved radically in terms of literacy, infant mortality, and life expectancy during the first 10 years of his leadership. After that the IMF imposed it's usual austerity program on them, in exchange for cash... and things seem to have gone downhill from there. Of course this is just wikipedia... so who knows... but it's interesting to consider that besides the complicated and violent political and ethnic internal problems, that the external influence of the IMF may have (yet again) be also a villain here.

MOD PARENT TROLL

[Anonymous Coward]

The hyperbole in that post is off the scale.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Anonymous Coward]

Guatamala? You really need MORE proof? What, did you help build that place or what? Walked patrols there? Because something has to be very wrong if you ask for proof while you KNOW that everyone in there.... has been in there for many many years with NO proof what so ever. Even last week the US found it 'news' to report that after 9 years of being held without proof, being tortured (yes, sleepdep, waterboarding, sickcontrol... all real torture) a guy confessed... Hell after 9 years with in illegal custody and daily torture I would confess being your mommy. And so would you.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[IdolizingStewie]

... Seriously? I'm pretty sure the US isn't torturing anyone in Guatamala.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Anonymous Coward]

US does torture a few in Guatamala.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Anonymous Coward]

Even Bush has admitted to it. There is no question about this. It's a fact. The US is using torture and has so for many years on people that they have no proof against, that are being held for years... Seriously, if someone that is a Muslim takes your kid or parents away. Puts them for years in a cell. There is no judge, because there was no crime, so there is nothing to go with to a judge... even the illegal captivity qualifies as torture, but waterboarding, sleepdeprevation, sick-treatment as they call it are all without a doubt torture and are all without a doubt a warcrime. People should be prosecuted for this. But I guess it's ok if it's some US dude who is doing the killing. Those non-us people, especially the ones with another color, probably don't have any feelings like real people anyway. The germans have a great sentence to describe this behaviour. Zum Kotsen.

Re:Mugabe: Proof that Carter was worst Prez ever

[countertrolling]

Asking if the Bush presidency was a catastrophe is like asking if Howdy Doody has wooden balls. But notice it's policy that hasn't changed. It predates Bush by a long shot, and it post dates him. He always rides the limo as a passenger, never the driver.

Bad taste?

[stealth_finger]

He has left in his the sum of 3,700,000 Zimbabwean Dollars which is tied up in bank accounts etcetera etcetera give me you bank details.

Re:Bad taste?

[sycodon]

So that's about 23 cents?

Re:Bad taste?

[Opportunist]

It was when you posted, now it's more like 10 ... 9 ... 8 ...

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[elashish14]

Have you heard of this site http://www.wikileaks.ch/.

How about this story http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11611319.

Not news...

[Oxford_Comma_Lover]

I fail to see how this is really news... Zimbabwe has a pretty bad human rights record, and stuff worse than this happens around the world all the time. A number of Universities have withdrawn honorary degrees given to Mugabe. The only difference here is the person whose rights were abused was a law professor.

http://www.hrw.org/en/world-report-2011/zimbabwe (Human Rights Watch report on Zimbabwe).

Still, the slashdot community tends to have only slightly more knowledge than the general public about human rights matters. So perhaps it's good to occasionally have such stories.

Re:Not news...

[sycodon]

And no one finds any irony in the fact that the universities gave them to him in the first place when even then it was obvious to anyone but them that this guy was a a tyrant in the making.

Kind of like Chavez. How many people will he have to kill and torture until the figure it out?

Re:Not news...

[Hognoxious]

I'm not sure that it was obvious. Back in the day he was considered a liberator who had overthrown a racist regime.

Re:Not news...

[FuckingNickName]

How many people will the US government kill by gun, by bomb, by manipulating foreign regimes? How many in its own country will be left destitute or gratuitously incarcerated, unable to access good healthcare and with challenges far beyond most man's capabilities, because of an unequal law and unequal balance of power? How many vulnerable people will be will be denied the help they need because of some bureaucratic box-checker with a quota to achieve, then die because they can't afford the heating bill?

Under Mugabe and Chavez, the method of torture is simple and honest: you beat or you crush or you cut to physically injure. In a modern state, the method of torture is to overwhelm with bureaucracy and to hoard readily available resources, so that people are left alone to wither away or to kill themselves.

Give me Mugabe any day. Even if he kills me, I know that his method is not sustainable, and one day he will be old and everyone will be tired of him. The country will then yearn for and achieve freedom, and while still new will cherish the freedoms it has achieved. The West, on the other hand, has forgotten the difference between freedom and oppression, with insurmountable technology to monitor dissenters. Breaking out of our current death spiral will be much harder.

Re:Not news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, before rising to power Muagabe was seem more than as a freedom fighter than a dictator.

Re:Not news...

[Anonymous Coward]

"...unable to access good health care..."

Oh Barf.

So being able to take you snotty 2 year old to the clinic is now considered a human right?

Then except for the 100 years or so, the ENTIRE WORLD, throughout ALL OF HISTORY was a hellhole.

Does Nancy Pelosi hand feed you this shit?

Re:Not news...

[Internetuser1248]

Kind of like Chavez. How many people will he have to kill and torture until the figure it out?

When I read the above I thought "Oh wow I must have missed something important in the news recently", and I jumped on google and searched. Google said that no, I hadn't missed anything recently. This leads me to believe that Chavez must have killed and tortured people longer ago, and rather than read all the news since he came to power, I thought I would just let sycodon himself illuminate me as to this gem of information. I don't doubt the claim, to quote Bill Hicks: all governments are liars and murderers. On the other hand I don't want to bring this up in polite conversation about the state of politics in the world without the facts to back it up. So please, illuminate me, with links. I like evidence.

If possible, it would be good if you could show a large number of killings as well, as governments can usually justify killing just a couple of people. As a rule of thumb lets say that if a national government kills more people than the state of Texas each year, then we can be justified in calling them a murderous regime. You can do that per capita if you think its fairer.

Re:Not news...

[Hognoxious]

A number of Universities have withdrawn honorary degrees given to Mugabe.

You think he cares abut that?

But when Robertson's took the picture of him off the jam jars I heard he was mightily miffed.

Re:Not news...

[FuckingNickName]

Sorry, luv, wrong continent. Yes, access to healthcare for a 2 year old is, on the civilised side of the pond, considered "a human right". Recall that "right" is simply a label for some long-standing privilege regarded as universally applicable by common consensus. Recall also that consequent action/inaction is the result of human diplomacy and legislation, not any inherent natural property or gift from on high, regardless of what the (often very sensible) Founding Fathers said.

You are welcome to put forward an argument that you, as an ill 2 year old, should have been helped to live because your parents could afford healthcare, whereas another ill 2 year old should be left to die because his parents could not afford healthcare. Proceed.

Re:Not news...

[Opportunist]

You know what? You're right! Why bother with healthcare for little children where almost no investment has taken place that could be saved by healthcare? I think we should discover the break even point where the treatment costs balance against the general investment so far in a person (considering education and all), I would expect that around age 7 or 8 this BEP is reached, below that age healthcare is a waste of money.

If you want to be capitalist, at least go all the way!

Re:Not news...

[FuckingNickName]

I like your argument because it counts the sunken cost and would like to hire you as a management consultant at five times the employee rate to turn my workforce from client-focused to target-focused.

The short term bonus I receive for savings on paper will do nicely for when the firm goes under. Besides, managers get fired last.

Re:Not news...

[Anonymous Coward]

So there are still morons like yourself who think Chavez is some kind of hero populist eh?

Just wait. There will be discoveries of mass graves and the like sooner than later.

I bet you think Castro is just a peachy guy too.

Re:Not news...

[Shikaku]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality

You might want to look up how often impoverished babies die per year.

You make yourself look like a fool.

Re:Not news...

[FuckingNickName]

I turned up to an exam with a golliwog for a mascot and a student with an aristocratic background shook its hand before sitting down next to me.

Re:Not news...

[FuckingNickName]

So there are still morons who think AC is some kind of hero populist eh?

Just wait. There will be discoveries of mass graves and the like sooner than later.

See what you did there? If you want to argue that Chavez isn't a saint (and he isn't, but he's nothing compared to the US govt), provide evidence. There's enough of it, but it's not as damning as you're implying.

Re:Not news...

[X0563511]

Hey you, don't bring your logic here! We don't like logic 'round these parts.

Re:Not news...

[Pseudonym Authority]

So being able to take you snotty 2 year old to the clinic is now considered a human right?

Hurrr. I had a huge sarcastic trollish comment to counter your when I realized you were a troll. Well played AC, I give you a 8/10.

Re:Not news...

[Hognoxious]

Recall that "right" is simply a label for some long-standing privilege regarded as universally applicable by common consensus.

No no no. All[1] men[2] are imbued with rights by their creator. It's self evident. Didn't you get the memo?

[1] Not to be taken literally. Does not apply to red ones or black ones.

[2] To be taken literally. Girls are just too silly to vote!

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[elashish14]

Not to mention that they're also torturing Manning as we speak http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning.

You're pretty uninformed.

(Sorry for double post)

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the US supported it today when it took place in Britain: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/02/25/britain.terror.videos/index.html?eref=edition

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[sumdumass]

They do? Ok Citation, source, you know, the stuff that shows us this isn't just in your head.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Rakshasa Taisab]

You're right, there wasn't any torture going on. Let's not confuse enhanced interrogation techniques with torture as those are totally different things.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[IdolizingStewie]

/sigh.... Geography, people, it's not hard. Guatemala != Guantanamo. Guantanamo is in Cuba.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Securityemo]

If that's true, they're mentally torturing him as a punitive measure. I can't imagine that it's out of fear of him leaking anything else, that's just stupid, you wouldn't have to stick someone in a signal-proof bunker for that. Even if he allegedly did the leak partly to somehow get back at his superiors, and planning to just dump out all that potentially life-critical information was really irresponsible and childish, that's just excessive.

I wonder how Adrian feels about this?

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Frangible]

Show me on the doll where George W. Bush touched you.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Frangible]

lol wut? We're torturing Assange? Yeah, I'm sure Obama is waterboarding the hell out of him... as he sits in a *Swedish prison* for "surprise sex".

Haloperidol. Look into it before you shoot a congresswoman in front of Safeway.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[jelizondo]

I hope that you do some research and assuming that you are an American, you will do everything in your power to bring to justice those involved and not just play " Really? I didn't know." Now you know.

Citation 1, citation 2

Re:Mugabe: Proof that Carter was worst Prez ever

[sumdumass]

I don't think you understand what was happening when Rhodesia became Zimbabwe.

even though Southern Rhodesia declared independence shortening it's name to Rhodesia in '65 or so, the entire world still recognized English colonial rule over it until 1980 or so when England finally release claim on it. England maintained it wouldn't release it's claim to it (and all their colonies) until they were governed under a majority rule. Anyways, in 78-79 a biracial party was formed to govern and the Lancaster house agreement placed it back under British colonial control.

An election was held, someone other then Mugabe was elected (Abel Muzorewa), And now enters the Carter administration.

Carter didn't have to invade. All he had to do is support the democratically elected leaders of the country instead of imposing his own desires on it by blocking UN action and supporting Mugabe knowing he was wanting to create a single party communist state.

The Carter Administration played a lead role in why Mugabe was not removed from power, why the rightful people elected wasn't allowed to stay in power, and why the world recognized Mugabe as the leader..In fact, People from Carter's administration, was toasting Mugabe as late as 2001 when they were attacking whites for their land.

"The only thing that frustrates me about Robert Mugabe is that he is so damned incorruptible," Andrew Young, Jimmy Carter's ambassador to the United Nations

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[jelizondo]

Please see above comment, yes, we are talking about Guatemala, Central America.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[sumdumass]

Wasn't is past tense. Does is present tense. Do you understand the difference between that?

And here I thought I was going to find out something new. Turns out it's just the old stuff regurgitated.

Action! Now!

[Quiet_Desperation]

The world community must send a sternly worded letter at once!

Re:Action! Now!

[Opportunist]

Reminds me of the old joke "And if the British bomb us again, Goebbels will hold an annihilating speech!"

Iraq?

[Weezul]

If Zimbabwe rises up, we should position a carrier battle group and prevent Mugabe from using air strikes against protestors, but we should not land troops. It's their war, we cannot give freedom, they must take it.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[sumdumass]

You do realize that does and did are separate things right? some things happened, the op said they are still happening. Citing things in the past that have stopped because of much public outrage is not "US does torture a few in Guatamala." At best, it's "US did torture a few in Guatamala." and that's a completely different statement.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[IdolizingStewie]

Yes, there was torture by the CIA in Guatemala... 20 years ago. If you've got stories of newer stuff, link those. GGP is clearly talking about Guantanamo, for a variety of reasons. I'm pretty sure there weren't a whole lot of Muslims involved in the Guatemalan civil war, Dubya hadn't even gotten into politics at that point, and the story he is referring to in the original comment is Guantánamo Detainee Release Blocked by Appeals Court

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[santax]

Because we all know the US has nothing to do with the idiotic impresement of assange. Nor did they call out on tv to kill him.... lol. I can give you some water buddy, but I can't make you drink.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Securityemo]

Assuming that the AC is "schizoaffective", I've seen people write like that when they're on their meds; apparently they don't just pop you back to normal in many cases. And sometimes a valid point gets lost in the garble. Had an interesting discussion once where the situation slowly slid more and more from programming logic into "symbolic logic", with no discernible snapping point. Fascinating, but horrible.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[sycodon]

Oh Barf.

Maybe they should just put him in the general population where he can get pounded in the ass every night by Tyrone.

In Capitalist America ...

[DrJimbo]

In Capitalist America watching evening news tortures you!

Re:In Capitalist America ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh, it's funny, because it's true.

Re:In Capitalist America ...

[Anonymous Coward]

In Capitalist America watching evening news tortures you!

Local news is even worse. Not!

Re:Mugabe: Proof that Carter was worst Prez ever

[sycodon]

Then there is the other side show of Zimbabwe going from a food exporter to near famine as unqualified thugs took over the farms.

Re:Mugabe: Proof that Carter was worst Prez ever

[sycodon]

It must really suck being you. Do people back away from you you start in on this stuff for fear of the spittle?

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that does and did are separate things right? some things happened, the op said they are still happening.

Since it's pretty clear that it happened, perhaps now it would be your turn to show evidence that it has stopped.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[jelizondo]

So, maybe it doesn't happen today in Guatemala, but it does happen today in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo and perhaps other places we don't know about; because it stopped in Guatemala every thing is all right...

According to your logic we should have let the Nazis off after the war because they were no longer torturing and killing people.

No, no, no. Such people must be brought to justice and face the music for they crimes, if they were American or Guatemalan, it does't matter.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[jelizondo]

I was responding to Jeremi's comment:

the US does this every day to many hundrerds, if nog thousands of people.

Citation? Evidence? Anything?

But you are right, I was posting in another thread about Batista and other dictators supported by the USG (even employing Marines to seat a "president" at gun-point in Dominican Republic) and got the threads mixed.

Mugabe is a total idiot

[judeancodersfront]

The world has a hard time admitting this since Mugabe was supposed to lead the country away from evil white rule. He's not only a psycho thug but a total idiot when it comes to economics. He doesn't seem to get that printing money for government workers is bad in the long run and that inflation cannot be controlled through price fixing. It's like watching a freshmen who hasn't taken econ 101 run an economy. Milk is too expensive? Well then machete anyone who charges more than $2. Problem solved.
Anti-white, pro-white, pro-black whatever I don't care just please admit this guy is one of the worst leaders Africa has come up with. Just awful.

Good for Africa! Good for humanity!

[Anonymous Coward]

FInally those people who watch terrorist television channels like AlJazeera get punished

Palin2012!

Re:Good for Africa! Good for humanity!

[Opportunist]

I dunno, does it count as a selfown when you obviously support Mugabe AND Palin? Or just as being politically completely illiterate?

In related news

[Anonymous Coward]

The UN human rights council in the UN condemned Israel for this obvious violation of human rights in Zimbabwe.

DMCA

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, what did he expect? You can't just reuse content like that willy nilly.

Re:DMCA

[mrintegrity]

Willy Nilly?

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[sumdumass]

There is no "according to your logic" here. I never said that anyone torturing people should get away with it. I said I wanted a source that it is happening, I got stories about it happening in the past and unsubstantiated claims of it happening in "Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo and perhaps other places we don't know about;" even though you also think "it stopped in Guatemala".

Now the happening in the past seems to be the past because of public outrage. Show me where it's happening in the present or admit you are just guessing that it might be. And yes, you guessing that it might be, or pointing to someone else who is guessing it is, is completely different then it actually happening.

Thank you Great Britain

[Anonymous Coward]

for transforming Rhodesia into Zimbabwe.

And now GB is trying to do the same trick to Israel.

Re:Thank you Great Britain

[Anonymous Coward]

The people asked Britain to leave. Britain complied. Don't blame the Brits for in incompetency of Mugabe.

Zimbabwe transformed themselves.

And you appear to know very little about Britain and Israel. No points for you! Well done!

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[jelizondo]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your comment. I read it as meaning "It happened years ago, so it doesn't matter". I don't mean to be controversial, I think that is necessary for American citizens (I'm not one) to pressure their government to stop such practices.

Now, if you want proof of it happening now and define now as Saturday, February 26th 2011, no, I don't have any proof.

If you mean "happening" as in the very recent past, yes, we have proof. Even Mr. Bush gloating about authorizing waterboarding of suspects in an interview with The Times of London (registration may be required), but you can get the gist of the interview or read about it somewhere else.

If half-drowning a man repeatedly doesn't qualify as torture, well then I don't have point to make. If it qualifies as torture and we have an open and public confession from the one who authorized it, why is the man still at large?

There is proof, from the mentioned open confession of Mr. Bush, photographs and videos of Abu Ghraib and the leaked cables which indicate that torture continued to be systematically used in Iraq years after the investigation of the incidents at Abu Ghraib.

So, we have proof of it happening quite recently, do you have proof that it stopped happening?

Re:Mugabe: Proof that Carter was worst Prez ever

[Anonymous Coward]

Incredible that someone actually remembers, considering how much of the history has been re-written since those days...

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[sumdumass]

Well, again, that was in the past. Bush is no longer president and a massive uproar happened when the torture situation first broke out. I would be highly surprised to find that the US is even contemplating torture since then.

If half-drowning a man repeatedly doesn't qualify as torture, well then I don't have point to make. If it qualifies as torture and we have an open and public confession from the one who authorized it, why is the man still at large?/blockquote>BTW, they don't half drown a man when they water-board. They create a situation where it appears to the victim that they are drowning but never. It's more psychological then physical and the victim is generally never in danger of drowning.

As for why Bush isn't locked up? Probably because for one, while he was the commander in chief, he likely didn't order the water boarding and therefore while technically responsible, it likely not behind it even though he supported the actions after it happened. He has admitted to telling people to use any means necessary, but as far as I know, he hasn't actually said "torture this person". You typically lock up the person who did the wrong, not the supervisor in charge of them. an example of this, you have a 16 year old kid who gets his drivers license. You are in charge of that kid, some people taunt and bully him, he runs them over with your car. Do you go to prison and get locked up because you said he could take the car to the library? No.. well generally no unless you knew what he was going to do and aided him in the process. Another example, you are in charge of a work crew of about 10 people. You tell me that I need to make sure the project is finished on time. I then take a couple of live grenades and tape them to the chairs of the other developers in a way so that if they get up, they are killed. They stay until the project is finished. Do you need to be locked up for holding those people hostage until the work was finished? No, but I sure as hell would deserve it. This is because even though you were in charge of me and gave me orders to do something, I chose to do something illegal outside of your orders.

There is proof, from the mentioned open confession of Mr. Bush, photographs and videos of Abu Ghraib and the leaked cables which indicate that torture continued to be systematically used in Iraq years after the investigation of the incidents at Abu Ghraib.

The entire torture information became available years after the invasion of Iraq. Abu Ghraib happened before but wasn't publicly known until well after the Mission Accomplished screw up and I believe it was near of just after his reelection. Again, all your really saying is that it happened in the past. A lot of outcry came of that, a lot of politicians losing their seats came of that. Bush isn't even in the government right now. And as far as I can tell, all Bush really admitted was that it happened and he thinks it saved lives.

So, we have proof of it happening quite recently, do you have proof that it stopped happening?

I'm not sure there is proof of it happening quite recently. As far as I can tell, it's still just proof that it had happened in the past. Bush wrote about, and gave interviews concerning the things that happened in the past. As for proof that it stopped happening, tell me, when did you stop beating your wife?

I have reason to believe through congressional action, outcry from the public, including massive shifts in government that was closely related to the torture, that it stopped a couple of years ago completely.

God your are a jaded

[SmallFurryCreature]

Not news that someone is tortured for watching a news program... just how jaded can you get?

Is it also not news if a person gets killed or wounded in a war? Well, I WANT to know, I NEED to know because else I might become one of those people who life only in their tiny self-made world filled with comforting lies.

No thanks, this is stuff that matters.

And if someone else in the world is merely detained by a polite police officer and given a cup of tea for watching the news, I STILL WANT TO FUCKING KNOW ABOUT IT.

By your logic, since the nazi's did every bad thing out there, we don't need to report on anything anymore.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[BitZtream]

Yea, instead we're basing our arguments on wild speculation with absolutely no indication that its true ... most of it coming from the media whore himself.

I'm sorry, while they argument that 'The US is gonna get him!' might have had some wait if he didn't go from SWEDEN to ENGLAND in order to 'hide' from the long arm of the US. Since England and the US are supposed to be torture buddies ... and Sweden doesn't even like the US at this point ... I can totally understand why he left Sweden for England ... England is obviously a much safer place to hide from the US.

Seriously, get some perspective and take the blinders off, if he was scared of the US doing something, he wouldn't have went to fucking England moron.

Re:Mugabe: Proof that Carter was worst Prez ever

[tqk]

Incredible that someone actually remembers ...

For some of us, this is important. We remember all the slights people suffer. Mugabe's not un-watched.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes please provide some type of Citiation or Evidence.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[alexo]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/14/3137816.htm?section=world

Good enough?

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[sumdumass]

Good enough for what? That a defense team is going to portray his client as a victim of the system or signal that he's been punished enough before trial so his punishment at trial should be light?

I remember getting locked up for a weekend for under aged alcohol consumption. My parents were out of town the weekend (which was why I thought I could get away with it) so I had to wait until they got back before I could be released. I was isolated from the rest of the prisoners and couldn't go into the normal holding cells. I didn't get the recreation period and had to eat meals separate at different times. The sheriff's department wasn't set up to house juveniles that weren't convicted at the time. They put me in a basic holding cell with a toilet, sink, and cot that had one blanket and no pillow. The only windows were in the door with a slide that was kept closed most of the time. Every so often a guard would open it and peek in but you couldn't see them because of the lighting. The lights were either one or off and it was at their discretion. There was some sort of humming noise (probably from an appliance or ballast in the lighting) but no other noises. You couldn't even hear anyone walking past the door.

My lawyer said the same things before I went to court. It was torture putting me in there, I should have been release to my grandparents who were supposed to be taking care of me, and so on. They wanted me to tell them who purchased my beer and wouldn't except the excuse that I had been swiping them from social events over the past couple months and storing them until I had a chance to drink without getting caught.

I don't buy accusations of torture that appear a lot like something I went through as a kid which was nothing special. It was more of a torture thinking about what my parents were going to do then sitting in jail for 2 days waiting on them to show. And I would have had that no matter where they put me.

So no. It's not good enough to make the case that the US still practices torture.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[alexo]

You were "isolated from the rest of the prisoners" for a weekend . Manning has been in "maximum custody" solitary confinement for about seven months . If you are trying to draw a parallel between these two events then you, sir, are truly an idiot.

The accusations come not only from Manning's lawyer but from Amnesty international and by the United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture.

But, hey, why don't you do some reading on the subject yourself?
For example, here's a statement by a psychiatrist and expert witness.
Or, since we are all so big on peer review an citations, try asking Google Scholar.

Oh, just so you won't be under the impression that Manning is an isolated case, there are some 100,000 more like him.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[sumdumass]

You were "isolated from the rest of the prisoners" for a weekend . Manning has been in "maximum custody" solitary confinement for about seven months . If you are trying to draw a parallel between these two events then you, sir, are truly an idiot.

Do not misrepresent the situation. He has more visitors and interaction with people on a daily basis in Isolation then I did. How else do you think the article that says a hand full of people are allowed to see him was able to quote people who regularly visit him when speaking hyperbole about his treatment.

And no, I'm not trying to draw a parallel between the two situations. I'm saying it's not torture even though in my short term, my lawyer tried to make the same damn case in an effort to get the court to go light on me. The entire point of making that statement was about what the lawyer did. He inflated everything for a reason. That's what is happening in the article that was linked. They are saying Let's have a pity party for the gay kid who couldn't openly serve in the army who ended up stealing information and disseminating it to people who never should have had access to it because he is being treated poorly and that should be punishment enough.

The accusations come not only from Manning's lawyer but from Amnesty international and by the United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture.

The accusations come not only from Manning's lawyer but from Amnesty international and by the United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture.

I have seen those. They don't impress me. I saw nothing that indicates torture in there. On aside note, Amnesty international describe a modern college kids partying lifestyle as torture too. They did so in claiming certain things like listening to music is torture that's happening at club gitmo. The UN hit piece is funny too.. It cites that he should be allowed to talk to other prisoners, should be able to work, and the fact that he's on a watch list because he indicated he would hut himself was improper. But it didn't claim it was torture. Get real.

But, hey, why don't you do some reading on the subject yourself?
For example, here's a statement by a psychiatrist and expert witness.
Or, since we are all so big on peer review an citations, try asking Google Scholar.

And those say it's torture? I pretty much gave up on reading what you link to after the fallacy of the Amnesty international and UN links. But seriously, do that say it's torture or do they say it's not proper, constructive or against some rules somewhere instead?

Oh, just so you won't be under the impression that Manning is an isolated case, there are some 100,000 more like him.

Yea, that's what I thought. Standard practice is all the sudden being construed as torture. I guess I could change the definition of "up" and claim you never woke "up" a day in your life too or that in doing so, you participated in torture yourself.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[alexo]

I pretty much gave up on reading what you link to after the fallacy of the Amnesty international and UN links.

Really convenient, isn't it? Cocoons are so comfy.

But seriously, do that say it's torture or do they say it's not proper, constructive or against some rules somewhere instead?

Sorry, bud, you can either dismiss everything I say out of hand or you can ask me to summarize things for you, but you can't have it both ways.

As I already said, do your own research. Read articles by expert psychologists and psychiatrists from peer-reviewed publications -- the Web (and, in particular, Google Scholar) makes them easily accessible accessible nowadays, at the very least you get the summaries.

Or continue ignoring the evidence. I don't really care, it is not my job to educate you. I posted those links for those slashdotters that may be interested.

Sorry, troll feeding time is over. Have a nice life.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[sumdumass]

Really convenient, isn't it? Cocoons are so comfy.

I don't know, is it? I mean you are the one who isn't saying it's otherwise important to the topic.

Sorry, bud, you can either dismiss everything I say out of hand or you can ask me to summarize things for you, but you can't have it both ways.

So I'll take that as a no, it doesn't say anything specifically about torture. And no, I wasn't dismissing it out of hand, I was not looking further if it didn't say anything important. There is a difference.

As I already said, do your own research. Read articles by expert psychologists and psychiatrists from peer-reviewed publications -- the Web (and, in particular, Google Scholar) makes them easily accessible accessible nowadays, at the very least you get the summaries.

And what do they say? Our prison system that has been in place since the beginning of the country is now practicing torture when they do things we have always done? How is it all the sudden torture when it was punishment before? How is it all the sudden torture when it wasn't 20 or 30 years ago? I'll tell you why, because it's been redefined to meet political agendas. And that doesn't make it true or bad.

Or continue ignoring the evidence. I don't really care, it is not my job to educate you. I posted those links for those slashdotters that may be interested.

The evidence doesn't point to torture though. It points to reclassifying things as torture for political advantage. It point to rules we aren't even bound by that weren't followed, that's not torture. If you really had something valuable to say that pointed to actual torture, you wouldn't be sitting here saying go read all this crap, you would be pointing the specific out.

Now, what may be true is that the US needs to improve it's prison system and handling of human rights. But you showed nothing that indicates torture. And no, some so called human rights abuse is not torture. and that's what this thread is about- whether or not the US still practices torture. You have failed to show that they have.

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[alexo]

http://www.prisoncommission.org/statements/grassian_stuart_long.pdf

Re:This happens in more places than Zimbabwe alone

[Anonymous Coward]

the zimbabwe professor deserved it , ever since hs ans c , i have a fucking professor who is arrogant and scumbag