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Chandrayaan-1 Spots Giant Underground Chamber On the Moon

Posted by timothy on from the where-the-tang-mines-will-be dept.

siliconeyes writes "Scientists at the Indian Space Research Organization have discovered a giant underground chamber on the moon, which they feel could be used as a base by astronauts on future manned missions to moon. An analysis by an instrument on Chandrayaan-1 revealed a 1.7-km long and 120-metre wide cave near the moon's equator that is in the Oceanus Procellarum area of the moon that could be a suitable 'base station' for future human missions."

29 of 322 comments (clear)

  1. to echo a commenter on TFA.... by FooAtWFU · · Score: 3, Interesting
    dust storms on the moon? really? honestly? come on, people.

    Other than that, sure, sounds spiffy. Now we just need to wait for something useful to do up in Space (and practical, for that matter.)

    --
    The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    1. Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... by Brett+Buck · · Score: 5, Informative

      There are certainly dust storms of a sort. Dust is moved by electrostatic forces as the sun rises and sets - all those charged particles coming out of the Sun, unimpeded, is like rubbing an amber rod with cat fur.

    2. Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... by Suki+I · · Score: 4, Funny

      which they feel could be used as a base by astronauts on future manned missions to moon.

      What makes them think the moon's crawlspace is not already in use?

      --
      Home of The Suki Series
    3. Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... by anakin876 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem isn't the dust storm, the problem is the dust coming in on the suits. It's sharp and when breathed in can create serious health problems. It gets all over the place.

    4. Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... by Charliemopps · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Something to do in space? Like... solar power unimpeded by an atmosphere? Near limitless material resources? Industrial production with no concern for environmental impact?

    5. Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... by gandhi_2 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Many Bothans died to bring us this information.

      --
      THL phish sticks
    6. Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... by peragrin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So add in an electrostatic ion breeze just inside the airlock. Or if you have extra water(moon I know) a quick hose down will work as well.

      There are several ways to deal with that problem.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    7. Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... by ross.w · · Score: 4, Funny

      Whaling. Don't forget whaling. If there ain't no whales, you could tell tall tales and sing a whaling tune.

      --
      If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
    8. Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... by Mt._Honkey · · Score: 4, Informative

      Moon dust should not be so quickly dismissed. It isn't like sand on Earth which has its edges blunted by wind and water erosion, because there is no such erosion on the moon. Moon dust is essentially microscopic shards of broken glass with very sharp edges. It's really nasty stuff, it sticks to everything like barbs. Managing moon dust will have to be a major practical consideration for a lunar colony.

      --

      Don't Bogart the fish sticks
    9. Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... by metalcup · · Score: 3, Informative

      http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2005/07dec_moonstorms/

      Nope, there are moonstorms. From the link:

      "All this matters to NASA because, by 2018 or so, astronauts are returning to the Moon. Unlike Apollo astronauts, who never experienced lunar sunrise, the next explorers are going to establish a permanent outpost. They'll be there in the morning when the storm sweeps by.

      The wall of dust, if it exists, might be diaphanous, invisible, harmless. Or it could be a real problem, clogging spacesuits, coating surfaces and causing hardware to overheat.

      Which will it be? Says Stubbs, "we've still got a lot to learn about the Moon."

      --
      "Laziness is an optimisation protocol"
    10. Re:to echo a commenter on TFA.... by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Rock is an insulator

      Go to Scotland in November. Sit on a stone wall. Does your arse feel cold?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  2. The aliens live in it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    So do the humans plan evicting the aliens that live in there? Or do they live only on the side of the moon that doesn't face Earth?

  3. Re:fist cave post by airfoobar · · Score: 3, Funny

    We have a cave troll!!!

  4. Lava Tube by icebike · · Score: 5, Informative

    A far better link is this one: http://www.moonsociety.org/reports/ISRO_Lavatube_Discovery.html

    You can't tell the length of a chamber from a photograph of the surface. Its not at all clear that there is any enclosed space in this tube. It could have been that the un-collapsed section is in fact filled full of derbies. Until we can hit them with ground penetrating radar its probably guesswork.

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    1. Re:Lava Tube by nabsltd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If it's filled with derbies, I think we better get up there fast and close the hat gap we're going to be experiencing soon with the rest of the world.

      We've know for a while that people aren't wearing enough hats, but now we know just how big the problem is.

    2. Re:Lava Tube by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you're going to be outrageously pedantic, you should at least strive to be correct while you're at it.
      == does not represent a query, it represents a comparisson, indicating "is equal to". A single = would mean "thing on left becomes thing on right".
      Next, it's "rather than" - saying you'd rather empty out a chamber filled out with crap then construct a chamber from scratch is stupid - why would you construct one from scratch if you've already emptied one out? (hint: Then with an E means "do thing A. Then do thing B", and both get done. "Than" with an A is for comparing, where you're rather do thing A than thing B, and only one gets done.
      (You ARE the one who wanted to get pedantic.)
      As for the practicality of it, a chamber-shaped area filled with rubble with no atmosphere and lunar gravity is likely to be every bit as difficult to clear out as it would be to dig a fresh tunnel. Possibly more so, due to the possibility of collapsing rubble from an already partly collapsed lava tube. There's a good chance that the rubble may be the only thing preventing further collapse. (ie: The roof of the tube is resting on it.)

  5. It's just binocs chewin' on the power cables... by Dutchmaan · · Score: 4, Funny

    Make sure workers in that cave have plenty of copies of 'The Empire Strikes Back' with a high definition cave scene!

  6. I've only one thing to say by Dyinobal · · Score: 4, Funny

    You have been eaten by a Grue.

  7. Data haven by Jaxoreth · · Score: 4, Informative

    Since the moon isn't covered by any legal jurisdiction, it would be a perfect place to set up a data haven. In fact, I believe one company already has plans to set up a lunar facility.

    --
    In general, it is safe and legal to kill your children. -- POSIX Programmer's Guide
    1. Re:Data haven by meerling · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The one way trip time for a radio signal between the Earth to the Moon is about 1.3 seconds if I remember correctly.
      Hollywood never shows it, but then again they have people on radios from Mars in real time and that's something like a 20 minutes to a half hour one way.
      Just imagine calling home from Mars. You dial the number, then wait a half hour before it starts ringing on Earth so someone will pick it up, by the time you hear them saying "hello", about an hour has gone by. Not very reasonable.
      The 1.3 seconds to the Moon would drive most computer communication protocols nuts, especially since they won't know if the other end has even received a packet for a bit more than 2 and a half seconds. Someone out there has written an interplanetary protocol, but I don't believe it's actually been implemented for anything.
      As a side note, NASA uses their own custom stuff to talk to their probes. They even have to take into account doppler shift due to the relative speeds and trajectories of their probes and receivers. It can get really messy if you haven't planned for it.

      All times will vary depending on the exact positions between the two bodies since they are orbiting the sun in different orbits, and if you want to communicate with something on the other side of the sun from you, you can't, at least not directly. To do that trick you have to send the signal to something else that can see both you and your intended recipient so they can relay it, which means a longer route and so a longer delay in any communications.

      Sci-Fi is so much easier with Ansibles, Sub-space Radios, and other types of instant communications.

    2. Re:Data haven by werepants · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately, that isn't how entanglement works - it sure seems like it should be able to send information faster than light, but every hypothetical experiment that has been devised still gets curtailed by a light speed constraint.

  8. Back to the caves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Caveman > Bronze Age > Iron Age > Industrial Age > Space Age > Caveman

  9. In further news... by CityZen · · Score: 4, Funny

    Scientists also report seeing a tall black monolith inside the chamber. Investigations are continuing...

  10. Shit, they found it! by Kosi · · Score: 4, Funny

    Bloody human scientists! Now I have to relocate.

  11. Re:dust-free? really? by quarterbuck · · Score: 5, Informative

    The original paper is published in an open access journal and the authors have covered the issues you mention.
    Their citations 2-8 are other papers which discuss the possibility of using caves like this for human habitation. The paper also includes spectroscopic studies of the composition of the roof -- seems like lots of Iron and Titanium.This seems to indicate Basalts (volcanic) according to the paper.If it withstood a lava flow, presumably it will survive an atmospheric re-pressurisation/ bunch of construction crews drilling away.

    --
    http://slashdot.org/submission/1062723/Cheap-mobile-data-plan?art_pos=2
  12. Re:Useless place by Graff · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This cace is "near the moon's equator". The only places where we could find water are on the poles.

    It's not that hard to move the water, especially in a low-g environment such as the moon. A pipeline from the pole to the equator would be about 1,700 miles, definitely possible considering that the longest pipeline on Earth is around 2,500 miles.

    You could also have largely autonomous vehicles which shuttle back and forth from both sites on a ballistic trajectory, it would take a relatively low amount of energy. Hell, I'd use something like a space fountain or launch loop because most of the energy of launch could be re-captured when the payload lands.

    Natural lava tubes this size are a great find for many reasons:

    • living quarters will need considerable shielding from:
      • high-energy particles
      • pressure differences
      • temperature swings
      • micro-meteor impacts
    • the best first-line of shielding will be the moon's regolith, it's dense and locally-available
    • excavation takes time and that means a lot of money supporting the crew and equipment doing the digging
    • you'll have to shield the crew during excavation, which means you need to bring shielding with you

    A large, stable lava tube greatly simplifies the entire process and saves a lot of time and money.

    --
    Sapere aude!
  13. Re:Useless place by subreality · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't think the pipeline would work. 1700 miles is easy on earth, but a much tougher construction project in hard vacuum. Can you imagine welding though spacesuit gloves? Not to mention it'd be terribly expensive to lift 1700 miles of pipe. Even then you'll have to expend a lot of energy heating it so the water doesn't freeze.

    I'd think it'd be easier to dig another cave in a more convenient location.

    On the other hand, the words "Space fountain" gave me an awesome idea before I looked up what it really is. Here's what I thought: collect water at the poles, pressurize it, and squirt it through a nozzle on a ballistic trajectory toward the moon base. Lay out tarps all around the base. The water will freeze in flight and fall on the tarps. When you need more water, reel the tarps in and collect the ice.

    You could improve the aim by making a specialized nozzle. After initially launching the drops, have them go down a long barrel, perhaps tens of meters long, with some kind of noncontacting guidance mechanism inside. Induction coils? Little microdroplet sprayers? It'd be like aiming the electron beam down a CRT. Depending how tight you can dial in the convergence, you might be able to make due with a giant funnel on the receiving end.

    Keep in mind you don't need to bring back a lot of water. You only need enough to replenish what gets lost. Pipelines are great for big volume, but for these small amounts, I'd bet the "moon fountain" might cut it.

    Or just send out an RC moon buggy to pick up a few barrels from time to time.

  14. C programming language, not mathematical notation by perpenso · · Score: 3, Informative

    These folks are not using mathematical notation. They are using the C programming language.

  15. "Anti-mater" by Kupfernigk · · Score: 3, Funny

    That would be a "Yo momma" joke in Latin.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."