Chandrayaan-1 Spots Giant Underground Chamber On the Moon

siliconeyes writes "Scientists at the Indian Space Research Organization have discovered a giant underground chamber on the moon, which they feel could be used as a base by astronauts on future manned missions to moon. An analysis by an instrument on Chandrayaan-1 revealed a 1.7-km long and 120-metre wide cave near the moon's equator that is in the Oceanus Procellarum area of the moon that could be a suitable 'base station' for future human missions."

Comments

to echo a commenter on TFA....

[FooAtWFU]

dust storms on the moon? really? honestly? come on, people.

Other than that, sure, sounds spiffy. Now we just need to wait for something useful to do up in Space (and practical, for that matter.)

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[Brett Buck]

There are certainly dust storms of a sort. Dust is moved by electrostatic forces as the sun rises and sets - all those charged particles coming out of the Sun, unimpeded, is like rubbing an amber rod with cat fur.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[Suki I]

which they feel could be used as a base by astronauts on future manned missions to moon.

What makes them think the moon's crawlspace is not already in use?

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[anakin876]

The problem isn't the dust storm, the problem is the dust coming in on the suits. It's sharp and when breathed in can create serious health problems. It gets all over the place.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[Charliemopps]

Something to do in space? Like... solar power unimpeded by an atmosphere? Near limitless material resources? Industrial production with no concern for environmental impact?

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[gandhi_2]

Many Bothans died to bring us this information.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[peragrin]

So add in an electrostatic ion breeze just inside the airlock. Or if you have extra water(moon I know) a quick hose down will work as well.

There are several ways to deal with that problem.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[ross.w]

Whaling. Don't forget whaling. If there ain't no whales, you could tell tall tales and sing a whaling tune.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[esoterus]

The Moon is indeed... a harsh mistress.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[ae1294]

I thought the next step was always ???...

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[WiglyWorm]

It wouldn't matter. The vacuum of space would not allow heat to transfer from the heat sinks to the air as it does in terrestrial environments, as there is nothing there for the heat to transfer to.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[maxwells_deamon]

Heat engines would do the trick easily. Large temperature differences exist between the surface (hot/cold) and the bottom of the cave. You would need to change the direction of the piping twice a month.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[thebigmacd]

The space shuttle is cooled using radiative heat rejection. It works well.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[Will.Woodhull]

This is troll food, probably, but it might get some people thinking.

From what we know of the regolith and presence of water on the Moon, one of the first commercially viable industries will be the construction and launching of Earth satellites, built with the ferro-concrete technology we perfected some 70 years ago. The Portland cement comes from cooking sorted and graded regolith in solar ovens, in vacuum; the process will have quite an interesting set of by products, including, I believe, oxygen. The relatively small amount of iron can be obtained from the 3+ billion year accumulation of iron meteors. The regolith can be used as it is for the aggregate.

Principle advantages:

• launching from a low gravity well into a deep gravity well is going to be very much cheaper than putting anything into Earth orbit from Earth itself;
• a satellite shielded by a concrete shell a couple of meters thick is immune to micrometeorites, and if it is chipped, it could be repaired in orbit by a visiting cement truck.
• There would also be advantages with thermal regulation, shielding from ion storms, and so on.

The future of interplanetary construction is probably going to belong to the ferro-concrete engineers.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[Mt._Honkey]

Moon dust should not be so quickly dismissed. It isn't like sand on Earth which has its edges blunted by wind and water erosion, because there is no such erosion on the moon. Moon dust is essentially microscopic shards of broken glass with very sharp edges. It's really nasty stuff, it sticks to everything like barbs. Managing moon dust will have to be a major practical consideration for a lunar colony.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[symbolset]

These caves are all over the moon. This is just the one we've found so far. Lava tubes are fairly common on Earth as well, but water dynamics have filled most of them in. Being dry, there will be common lava tubes on the moon.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[metalcup]

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2005/07dec_moonstorms/

Nope, there are moonstorms. From the link:

"All this matters to NASA because, by 2018 or so, astronauts are returning to the Moon. Unlike Apollo astronauts, who never experienced lunar sunrise, the next explorers are going to establish a permanent outpost. They'll be there in the morning when the storm sweeps by.

The wall of dust, if it exists, might be diaphanous, invisible, harmless. Or it could be a real problem, clogging spacesuits, coating surfaces and causing hardware to overheat.

Which will it be? Says Stubbs, "we've still got a lot to learn about the Moon."

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[tftp]

You would need to change the direction of the piping twice a month.

The Earth would go bankrupt just on delivery of the liquid for this heat engine, unless it is molten glass or some other local material. But local materials are hard to use.

We can't set up any heavy machinery on the Moon or on other planets without some major discoveries in propulsion. Right now we are like ancient seafarers in a canoe crossing the Atlantic ocean. Can it be done? Yes, perhaps, if you really have to. Is it practical? Not really.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[Vectormatic]

i'm not sure what good a 9000 milli-Watt/hour reactor would be, might as well carry a laptop battery or two instead...

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[Maritz]

We have absolutely NO infrastructure up there, and no chance AT ALL , EVER, of doing anything remotely practical or feasible in space. It's ridiculous to suggest that we can.

Ever is a long time. Space presents a series of non-trivial engineering challenges yes. The moon however does have water and presents an opportunity to get propellant to space platforms at a fraction of the cost of bringing it out of Earth's gravity well. To suggest that no-one will ever do anything practical in Space is myopic in the extreme.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[Albert Sandberg]

Or just have the suits outside, which youi then crawl into from a hatch in the back, the whole time like in the new space car that Top Gear showed in their last episode :-)

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[Albert Sandberg]

It's actually a trap.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[Rakishi]

Satellites don't die because they get hit by a micrometeorites, they die because they run out of fuel to keep them from combating atmospheric drag and general maneuvering. Moving more mass takes more energy for the same effect so heavy satellites will be a bitch. Not to mention the difficultly in properly de-orbiting them and the horror if one of them does hit something solid. Or hits anything period, like a micrometeorite. Congratulations, you've not create fifty new micrometeorites from the concrete chipping. As if space debris wasn't a problem already.

On top of all that, it's not even that difficult to stop micrometeorites from hitting the guts of a satellite with very little mass. Look up a whipple shield.

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[Hognoxious]

Rock is an insulator

Go to Scotland in November. Sit on a stone wall. Does your arse feel cold?

Re:to echo a commenter on TFA....

[cycleflight]

You're mentioning the properties of thermal mass of rocks here. Rocks have a high density, so even if their thermal conductivity were high, and their specific heat capacity low, they could still store a decent amount of thermal mass. Most rocks, as well don't have many fissures and crannies where natural convection can take advantage of additional surface area, which also aids their ability to hang onto heat. Another great example of this is lead.

Hmm... come to think of it, small rocks, lead, cider, gravy, churches, all tend to show this thermal storage tendency. Perhaps witches do as well?

The aliens live in it

[Anonymous Coward]

So do the humans plan evicting the aliens that live in there? Or do they live only on the side of the moon that doesn't face Earth?

Re:fist cave post

[airfoobar]

We have a cave troll!!!

Lava Tube

[icebike]

A far better link is this one: http://www.moonsociety.org/reports/ISRO_Lavatube_Discovery.html

You can't tell the length of a chamber from a photograph of the surface. Its not at all clear that there is any enclosed space in this tube. It could have been that the un-collapsed section is in fact filled full of derbies. Until we can hit them with ground penetrating radar its probably guesswork.

Re:Lava Tube

[nabsltd]

If it's filled with derbies, I think we better get up there fast and close the hat gap we're going to be experiencing soon with the rest of the world.

We've know for a while that people aren't wearing enough hats, but now we know just how big the problem is.

Re:Lava Tube

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're going to be outrageously pedantic, you should at least strive to be correct while you're at it.
== does not represent a query, it represents a comparisson, indicating "is equal to". A single = would mean "thing on left becomes thing on right".
Next, it's "rather than" - saying you'd rather empty out a chamber filled out with crap then construct a chamber from scratch is stupid - why would you construct one from scratch if you've already emptied one out? (hint: Then with an E means "do thing A. Then do thing B", and both get done. "Than" with an A is for comparing, where you're rather do thing A than thing B, and only one gets done.
(You ARE the one who wanted to get pedantic.)
As for the practicality of it, a chamber-shaped area filled with rubble with no atmosphere and lunar gravity is likely to be every bit as difficult to clear out as it would be to dig a fresh tunnel. Possibly more so, due to the possibility of collapsing rubble from an already partly collapsed lava tube. There's a good chance that the rubble may be the only thing preventing further collapse. (ie: The roof of the tube is resting on it.)

It's just binocs chewin' on the power cables...

[Dutchmaan]

Make sure workers in that cave have plenty of copies of 'The Empire Strikes Back' with a high definition cave scene!

I've only one thing to say

[Dyinobal]

You have been eaten by a Grue.

metal munching moon mice

[arbitraryaardvark]

for some reason when i read this the phrase "metal munching moon mice" popped into my head. apparently it's from a rocky and bullwinkle episode i must have seen a very long time ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal-Munching_Mice

Data haven

[Jaxoreth]

Since the moon isn't covered by any legal jurisdiction, it would be a perfect place to set up a data haven. In fact, I believe one company already has plans to set up a lunar facility.

Re:Data haven

[tomhudson]

Since the moon isn't covered by any legal jurisdiction, it would be a perfect place to set up a data haven. In fact, I believe one company already has plans to set up a lunar facility.

Two words: high latency.

People won't settle for crappy ping times - a minimum of 2,600 ms.

And of course, it's only usable when the moon is above the horizon.

Re:Data haven

[Kosi]

Bah, just send them out for a walk, once they are up there. Problem solved.

Re:Data haven

[dakameleon]

On the other hand, it's just about the perfect definition of off-site backup!

Re:Data haven

[meerling]

The one way trip time for a radio signal between the Earth to the Moon is about 1.3 seconds if I remember correctly.
Hollywood never shows it, but then again they have people on radios from Mars in real time and that's something like a 20 minutes to a half hour one way.
Just imagine calling home from Mars. You dial the number, then wait a half hour before it starts ringing on Earth so someone will pick it up, by the time you hear them saying "hello", about an hour has gone by. Not very reasonable.
The 1.3 seconds to the Moon would drive most computer communication protocols nuts, especially since they won't know if the other end has even received a packet for a bit more than 2 and a half seconds. Someone out there has written an interplanetary protocol, but I don't believe it's actually been implemented for anything.
As a side note, NASA uses their own custom stuff to talk to their probes. They even have to take into account doppler shift due to the relative speeds and trajectories of their probes and receivers. It can get really messy if you haven't planned for it.

All times will vary depending on the exact positions between the two bodies since they are orbiting the sun in different orbits, and if you want to communicate with something on the other side of the sun from you, you can't, at least not directly. To do that trick you have to send the signal to something else that can see both you and your intended recipient so they can relay it, which means a longer route and so a longer delay in any communications.

Sci-Fi is so much easier with Ansibles, Sub-space Radios, and other types of instant communications.

Re:Data haven

[werepants]

Unfortunately, that isn't how entanglement works - it sure seems like it should be able to send information faster than light, but every hypothetical experiment that has been devised still gets curtailed by a light speed constraint.

Re:Data haven

[jez9999]

And of course, it's only usable when the moon is above the horizon.

I might be missing something here, but isn't the moon always visible from somewhere on Earth? You'd need maybe 2 or 3 receivers (USA, Spain, Australia?)

Useless place

[joh]

This cace is "near the moon's equator". The only places where we could find water are on the poles. So, what to do there? Sitting in a cave doing nothing may be fine, but why go to the moon for that?

Re:Useless place

[Graff]

This cace is "near the moon's equator". The only places where we could find water are on the poles.

It's not that hard to move the water, especially in a low-g environment such as the moon. A pipeline from the pole to the equator would be about 1,700 miles, definitely possible considering that the longest pipeline on Earth is around 2,500 miles.

You could also have largely autonomous vehicles which shuttle back and forth from both sites on a ballistic trajectory, it would take a relatively low amount of energy. Hell, I'd use something like a space fountain or launch loop because most of the energy of launch could be re-captured when the payload lands.

Natural lava tubes this size are a great find for many reasons:

• living quarters will need considerable shielding from:
  • high-energy particles
  • pressure differences
  • temperature swings
  • micro-meteor impacts
• the best first-line of shielding will be the moon's regolith, it's dense and locally-available
• excavation takes time and that means a lot of money supporting the crew and equipment doing the digging
• you'll have to shield the crew during excavation, which means you need to bring shielding with you

A large, stable lava tube greatly simplifies the entire process and saves a lot of time and money.

Re:Useless place

[Nyeerrmm]

In some ways it would be harder (due to the lack of local water), but in other ways much easier. The equatorial region can be reached from any orbit, while the poles require a polar orbit. Anything coming from Earth is going to have an easier time getting into low-inclination orbits, making movement back and forth more feasible for an equatorial base.

As far as what they'd do, the earliest stages would mostly involve simply setting up the base and keeping it running. After that you can focus on science and exploration. Following this, my hope is that real settlement, with real industry (mining?) and people simply living, (agriculture, service, export) -- but of course that depends on a lot of what-ifs and how successful the first two stages are.

Re:Useless place

[subreality]

I don't think the pipeline would work. 1700 miles is easy on earth, but a much tougher construction project in hard vacuum. Can you imagine welding though spacesuit gloves? Not to mention it'd be terribly expensive to lift 1700 miles of pipe. Even then you'll have to expend a lot of energy heating it so the water doesn't freeze.

I'd think it'd be easier to dig another cave in a more convenient location.

On the other hand, the words "Space fountain" gave me an awesome idea before I looked up what it really is. Here's what I thought: collect water at the poles, pressurize it, and squirt it through a nozzle on a ballistic trajectory toward the moon base. Lay out tarps all around the base. The water will freeze in flight and fall on the tarps. When you need more water, reel the tarps in and collect the ice.

You could improve the aim by making a specialized nozzle. After initially launching the drops, have them go down a long barrel, perhaps tens of meters long, with some kind of noncontacting guidance mechanism inside. Induction coils? Little microdroplet sprayers? It'd be like aiming the electron beam down a CRT. Depending how tight you can dial in the convergence, you might be able to make due with a giant funnel on the receiving end.

Keep in mind you don't need to bring back a lot of water. You only need enough to replenish what gets lost. Pipelines are great for big volume, but for these small amounts, I'd bet the "moon fountain" might cut it.

Or just send out an RC moon buggy to pick up a few barrels from time to time.

Re:Useless place

[AigariusDebian]

Just throw ice cubes in launch loop.

Back to the caves

[Anonymous Coward]

Caveman > Bronze Age > Iron Age > Industrial Age > Space Age > Caveman

Re:Back to the caves

[Collapsing Empire]

Your post is full of grammatical errors so don't get started.

Re:Back to the caves

[Escape From NY]

I don't know much about cave spacemen, but some people call me the space cowboy.

Re:Back to the caves

[517714]

I think I'll just call you Maurice.

almost useless

[Iamthecheese]

Unless this is a deep, deep chamber the possibility of it collapsing when pressurized precludes just plugging up holes and using it. All it's good for is radiation shielding.

Re:almost useless

[Graff]

Unless this is a deep, deep chamber the possibility of it collapsing when pressurized precludes just plugging up holes and using it.

The plan for this kind of construction usually involves shoring and lining the tube to be sure that there are no weak points or leaks. You'd also build structures inside the tube that are sealable and have redundant safety measures.

A lava tube would would make an excellent first-line of protection but it wouldn't be the only one. It would save a lot of time and money in the construction of a lunar settlement.

In further news...

[CityZen]

Scientists also report seeing a tall black monolith inside the chamber. Investigations are continuing...

Illuminati is Getting Lazy

[Foobar of Borg]

I'm surprised they allowed their mass-media mind-control network to leak the fact that there are tunnels on the Moon. Perhaps they accidentally drank some of their own fluoridated water? Either way, the Annunaki will be pissed.

Shit, they found it!

[Kosi]

Bloody human scientists! Now I have to relocate.

dust-free? really?

[pz]

From the article, "the lava tubes offer a dust-free environment and adapting them for human use requires minimal construction. "

I think someone's been drinking too much of the strong coffee if they can conclude anything about dust levels in a lunar cave without having put any telemetry into the hole, or think that adapting any natural structure on the moon requires minimal construction without having actually imaged the fine-scale condition of the rock.

Re:dust-free? really?

[quarterbuck]

The original paper is published in an open access journal and the authors have covered the issues you mention.
Their citations 2-8 are other papers which discuss the possibility of using caves like this for human habitation. The paper also includes spectroscopic studies of the composition of the roof -- seems like lots of Iron and Titanium.This seems to indicate Basalts (volcanic) according to the paper.If it withstood a lava flow, presumably it will survive an atmospheric re-pressurisation/ bunch of construction crews drilling away.

Re:Air Tank / Flying Chamber

[Doc Ruby]

We've already landed on the Moon, evidently about 30 years before you were born. Your feeble efforts at dreaming don't have to limit my imagination, especially when you're unable to imagine Moon colonies that have been imagined for you for generations. Now put the fail pipe down and back away from the keyboard. Take a walk or something.

Prepare for Second Impact

[jphamlore]

Depending on the version of Evangelion, the researchers may have just located the Lance of Longinus and perhaps the resting place of Kaworu Nagisa.

I guess you dont know about Heilium 3.

[pablo_max]

Ever hear of helium 3? Perhaps you are unaware that there is a severe shortage of it? Perhaps you are also unaware that it is used for lots and lots of stuff which make our modern world possible.
Lastly, it seems that you are unaware that the moon contains shit loads of it.
Seems to me like a practice and profitable reason.

C programming language, not mathematical notation

[perpenso]

These folks are not using mathematical notation. They are using the C programming language.

"Anti-mater"

[Kupfernigk]

That would be a "Yo momma" joke in Latin.

Please do not disturb Annual Gift Man

[csb]

That is all.