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US Reneges On SWIFT Agreement

Posted by samzenpus on from the we-changed-our-minds dept.

Windrip writes "It seems the US is not living up to its end of the bargain when it comes to the SWIFT data agreement. When the agreement was signed last year, every EU citizen was guaranteed the right to know if the American authorities had retrieved their banking information, and which authorities had requested the information. Now one European Parliamentarian, Alexander Alvaro says that, once again, the Americans are not honoring their treaties."

24 of 394 comments (clear)

  1. I'm an American... by Palmsie · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...and I don't agree with the stance my government is taking. Just in case all the non-US slashdotters go on about how X, Y, and Z America is. It's not all of us, scouts honor =)

    --
    Carl Sagan quotes get you an automatic +5 on all posts.
    1. Re:I'm an American... by mirix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Usually people don't hate on average American folk (outside of jest at least), so much as they do the people in power, be it senators or CEOs.

      Although the fact that things like the tea party exist, and there is more than one person that likes ayn rand's books, and GWB got voted in twice, and Reagan is the most beloved president in history... those all make that a lot harder ;-)

      I suppose some groups may be more likely to hate Americans as a group (say Islamic fundamentalists that dislike western ideals), but westerners don't so much, I don't think. There are a lot of things I love about the US, and some very horrible things also.

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    2. Re:I'm an American... by rolfwind · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Now, there's one thing you might have noticed I don't complain about: politicians. Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don't fall out of the sky. They don't pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens. This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It's what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain't going to do any good; you're just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it's not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here... like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks. There's a nice campaign slogan for somebody: 'The Public Sucks. Fuck Hope.'"
      --George Carlin

    3. Re:I'm an American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Screw that. I'm American. I don't appreciate the anti-American sentiment--your country, your fuckup people. That's on you, not the US, particularly when it seems there are political reasons to undermine a *justifiably* unpopular treaty from you end.

      I have no clue why the EU would agree to this in treaty form anyways. Really, are you people nuts, or just stroking anti-American sentiment to hide your own stupid decisions?

      I have no clue what the EU would hand over data without review, as the article suggests Europol is. That's on the EU governments/agencies, not the US.

      I have no clue why the BFDI didn't even bother to at least tell the citizen/gov member what data was handed over. After all, they or some EU member agency handed it over to the US, so they know *what* data was handed over. They don't need the US to inform the citizen of that. The US not revealing what agency revealed/reviewed what in that file IS important, but your own gov should be able to tell you that at least your data was accessed, and they seemed really like they didn't even want to do that--again, that's on the EU, not the US

      The BFDI didn't even seem prepared to handle this request in the first place. Just maybe they aren't contacting the right folks across the pond either.

      Lastly, and the point of the article, the US probably isn't honoring the agreement. Not much proof though given outside an agency that was ill-prepared to handle a request in the first place. But given the buffoonery of approving the treaty, providing data info to their citizens regardless of American action which they can certainly do, and the delay they caused on their own end, wow...seems the point of this, whether true or not, is the treaty is going to get pulled.

      And as an American, or particularly if you in the EU, why the phrack is that a bad thing again? You should never have approved the treaty in the first place. If American stupidity or laziness means the treaty is pulled, then good, since you never should have agreed to this shit anyways. Your nation is your nation--quit handing over your info to some other nation out of your control, even if they may be nice, friendly, and a strong ally. Do investigations on your end, and if there's an issue, then turn that crap over to your ally.

      Damn, I'd be pissed if my banking info was handed over to someone in Spain. Particularly, I'd be upset my gov was lazy and didn't want to do the investigation internally, and handed over info with no control over oversight or rights to a country I have little to no rights in if I'm not IN the country. Why would you in turn do this to your own citizens?

    4. Re:I'm an American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No worries, most people, I believe, understand that the US government does not represent all it's people. Those who do really need to get a clue. I'm European by the way.

      But note also that I expect Americans to do something about their government, especially if they claim to be so embarrassed about it. Because either you fix the problem yourselves, or one day I will ask my government to take care of it (for example by not exporting items vital to your industry or by ceasing all police collaboration). It would be better for both of us that you take care of your own government rather than I dictate how your government should behave, but I can't endure your government's awful behavior forever.

      I know it's hard for you guys to reclaim your government, I know your gov has become an entity of it's own, that the American people serve their government instead of the other way around. I know your votes don't count because no matter who you vote for, corporations will just bribe the elected people to swing their way. And with so many elected people in various positions of power it's difficult to have a government made mostly of good people.
      But if you guys are motivated enough, you can do it. It's going to be tough, that's why you need motivation, but it's possible.
      Protest TSA pat-downs by not flying; do not take the train when the government tells you the train is an alternative, instead respond "No, it's not comfortable enough. It's the plane or nothing". When your politicians can't buy whatever they want because business and industry are impaired due to nobody traveling anymore, they'll have to rethink TSA invasive searches.
      I know half of Americans are happy about those TSA searches, but this is just an example of how you can change things provided you have the motivation and the willpower to fight long enough. Even if you don't have money and your vote is worth nothing, you can just use something else as leverage. Labor is strong leverage against the people at the top.
      "Opt-out Day" was a joke because it was supposed to last only one day - it made those who participated feel like they were doing something, but they were actually not achieving anything. Had Opt-out Day lasted 1 month perhaps things would have changed.
      Do you know why some politicians hate Anonymous' DoS attacks so much? Because they last longer than a day and have the potential to last forever. They really don't care about websites being down for a day or two, they can recover from that easily. Customers can't use the service? They'll come back in 3 days when it's working again, no loss at all. But what if the people doing those attacks suddenly decided to make them last 6 months? That's why they try to send these people to jail for as much as a few years when all they did was disrupt a website for 3 days. No matter how much you disapprove of those attacks, you can't deny the punishment far exceeds the crime.

      It is possible for Americans to change their government. You have to do it, otherwise other nations will try and you won't like it (and neither will those other nations. I really want to emphasize that I would not take any joy in my country meddling in yours business).

    5. Re:I'm an American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      I expect Americans to do something about their government, especially if they claim to be so embarrassed about it.

      It is possible for Americans to change their government.

      Begging the question of why we (Americans) should care what you "expect"... we have changed the Government. If you don't think George W. Bush... followed by Barak Obama... is a change, then I don't know what is!

      Personally, as an American, who has never missed a vote, I hope more folks will be voting on a basis other than a strict "D" or "R" basis.

    6. Re:I'm an American... by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem with Ron Paul is this: people would rather have an unprincipled representative who does what they want, than one who is principled and does what they don't want. If you think about this, you'll realize, as depressing as it sounds, it's a fairly reasonable position.

      I like Ron Paul. As far as I can tell, he sticks to his principles. However, I don't agree with what he would do if he were elected president. I don't think the US should be isolationist, and I don't want to go back to the gold standard. I'm not certain that abolishing the fed is a good idea (although recently they have seemed to slide back to their traditional position of ineptness).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:I'm an American... by the_womble · · Score: 3

      they're stupid, hypocritical and self serving.

      Just like the rest of the world!

    8. Re:I'm an American... by c0lo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Citation needed.

      Hell, absolutely survival level of google-fu would get it for you. Here's anyway. For the "live up to her own values" - read the "Later years" section. For the " more stringent the values that they espouse" start reading from the beginning of the article.

      (BTW: don't you dare whining TL;DR, it is not a meme I'd expect from a person at your age).

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    9. Re:I'm an American... by Sique · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Here we go: http://atheism.about.com/b/2011/02/06/ayn-rand-welfare-queen-living-high-on-government-assistance.htm

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    10. Re:I'm an American... by Baki · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You might be mistaken re. westerners. I feel that in Europe, in various countries (at least Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands) in the past few years the young generation has switched from viewing the US as an ally into viewing it as a threat to the world, potentially even an enemy.

      Of course, the US can do what it wants, it is sovereign. But so are we. Don't expect us to take US bribes and threats any longer in the future in order to cooperate with US policies (waging wars, following insane narcotics/drug policies, intellectual property laws).

      It is the old generation that is still in power, that (in part) is still following the US dictate. In a few years, this will be over.

      And I'm not alone in hoping for an economic downfall into poverty of the US. It may hit us too, but at least the money-bribe-saction bully that the US often is will loose its power.

    11. Re:I'm an American... by h4rm0ny · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, but as a European who has lived in the USA, I have to say that the disconnect between the general honesty and politeness of the US people and the actions of the government is very striking. It's all but inexplicable until you turn on a TV and see what passes for news in that country. The American people in my experience are polite, generally nice, and massively uninformed / misinformed. Most US citizens if made aware of this behaviour would, I believe, take the attitude of "if we say we'll do something, we should." Even the ones who don't agree with the act are likely to be of the opinion that the US simply shouldn't have agreed to something it wasn't honestly intending to do.

      I liked it when you overthrew British rule. You were the best you'd ever been, then. I would love to see a return of that willingness to act.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  2. And so what? by Gothmolly · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And what are they going to do about it, send a strongly worded letter?

    Dump a few 100 billion in bonds if you want to kick the US in the jimmy.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  3. A real shame by bkk_diesel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm not sure where to find a list of treaties that the United States has failed to honor (did a quick search and nothing obvious popped up), but it seems to me that as time goes on the Americans are losing more and more credibility on the world stage. The start of the real decline seemed to happen with the latest invasion of Iraq and really accelerated through the term of G.W. Bush. This is my perspective as a non-American living outside of the United States, but do the majority of people inside the U.S. realize how much they've lost on the world stage over the past decade?
    In a way the decline reminds me of the local police - 30 or 40 years ago the local police were your friend - someone you could go to and talk to and who would be willing to help you out. These days it seems like you're best off staying as far away from the police as possible.
    Does anyone else see things in a similar way?

    1. Re:A real shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Interesting question. I'm 40, live i Norway - a socialist democracy (you know... what most Americans associate with Hitler.. sigh...).

      When I was younger, I and everyone I knew lover America. We we happy to have a superpower that also was a beacon of freedom and democracy.
      Today, as you middleclass crumble and you have lost control over your own politicans, you don't even revolt. Is the propaganda that effective?

      I find it hilarious that poor right-wingers voted to let the rich not pay taxes (compared to average joe). The propaganda surely is working.

      However, even here, and especially in EU, the same stuff is happeing. We are about to face a world where being a human does not matter unless you have money. This will bring down the western civilisations eventually, if it continues.

    2. Re:A real shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a little homework assignment for all Americans, watch the news over the next few days. After watching, try to find similar stories from other countries and see how they report it..

      Well, I watch a little Faux News and CNN to see what the Liberal and Conservative Spin happens to be, then I usually turn on the BBC and Al-Jazeera to get some perspectives from Europe and the Middle East, and will also tune into some Japanese or Korean stations and get some Asian perspective on things. Overall, it seems like the Europeans bitch about everything we do (or don't do) but focus mostly on war and the environment, the Middle East bitches about anything related to Israel or religion, and Asia usually only really bitches when it's about Economics.

      Here's a small list to start with of treaties which weren't honored: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_treaties_did_the_US_break_with_native_Americans [answers.com]

      I find this to be the perfect example of why Americans are really tired of listening to the whine. First, those treaties were with people in our own country, not others, and just FYI to the world that story isn't even over yet. We STILL are working stuff out in the court systems with various Tribes.
      But the reason I bring it up is because if you're going to dig back to the 1700 and 1800, then it's only fair to do the same thing to the countries which are giving us criticism. And most of them have a MUCH more sordid history, and in all the exact areas that the world bitches at us. Unbridled expansion at the expense of the Native populations, raping the environment, slavery, murder, extortion, broken treaties, you name it and I'll show you a country on every continent that has committed all those crimes to a much worse degree than America.

      So to be blunt, those who are critical of us really need to take a long hard look in the mirror. Because the Truth is that the US has not cornered the market on being a bunch of stuck up, arrogant assholes. Although we DO have plenty of them, I'm not denying it. I just really think a lot of people have a pretty skewed sense of what's been going on in the world over the last 100 years.

  4. Misleading headline and summary by Blackeagle_Falcon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    TFA talks about Alvaro's efforts to obtain information about U.S. access to his account data from the German Federal Commissioner for Data Protection and Freedom of Information (BFDI). From the article BDFI seems to be some Kafkaesque bureaucracy. He submitted the original request in October. After repeated requests for more and different personal information, the BDFI finally forwarded the request to the U.S. authorities at the beginning of this month. The hang up here does not seem to be on the American side.

  5. Note to Europeans by russotto · · Score: 3, Funny

    We have altered the deal. Pray we do not alter it further.
        -- Obama

  6. So let's see if I got this straight... by mark-t · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Stop me if I make any mistakes here...

    When another country does something that the USA doesn't like, the USA gets all up in arms about it and either invades the nation with the intent of "setting them free", or else they impose quite intense political and/or economical pressure on the nation to comply with their expectations.

    When the USA does something that another country doesn't like and the other country dares to point this out, the USA basically goes "Meh." Because they figure that there's squat all that anybody else can do about it.

    Just wanting to be sure I know where things stand.

    --
    File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    1. Re:So let's see if I got this straight... by syousef · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Grow up, there is evil and corruption everywhere. EVERYWHERE

      /quote>

      Yes but when's the last time evil and corruption in the UK or Australia or Zimbabwe had a direct effect on you? The US has enemies because the US has influence. Very few nations -China and India come to mind - have policies that will affect so many people's lives and their influence is usually still limited to their own borders.. The EU as a conglomerate of nations also has power. But the US seeks to have more influence outside it's borders than pretty much any other nation.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  7. You know what I miss? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That feeling from when I was a kid that there was anything remotely honorable about my country's conduct.

  8. Bullies... by suss · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Bullies rarely keep their promises.

    That's what the US has become to the rest of the world; nothing more than bullies.

  9. Re:Big surprise by jandersen · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Gullible? Perhaps that is what you would call it; personally I think it is about being friends - friends don't ask for guarantees cast in iron, they trust each other. We in Europe have tended to see America as friends at least sine WWII.

    "Gullible" implies that we should have known better; that America is not a friend, but at best a predator with a false smile, and at worst an enemy. Is that really the case?

  10. Re:Hold your horses... RTFA. by djmurdoch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think that's an accurate summary. When describing the delay, the article says "There was, still no agreement between the US authorities and the BFDI. The American authorities would require still more data from the applicant." That sure sounds as though there were discussions taking place with the Americans, and the Americans were unclear or inconsistent about what was needed.

    There's also the quote from the MEP, ""The German authorities have not yet been able to find out whether data has been accessed at all. As such, the rights of EU citizens on correction, deletion or blockage of the data are being violated."

    And the headline of the original article: "Problems with Transparency. Brussels Eyes a Halt to SWIFT Data Agreement"

    So I think in this case Slashdot got the anti-American sentiment of the article about right.