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US Reneges On SWIFT Agreement

Posted by samzenpus on from the we-changed-our-minds dept.

Windrip writes "It seems the US is not living up to its end of the bargain when it comes to the SWIFT data agreement. When the agreement was signed last year, every EU citizen was guaranteed the right to know if the American authorities had retrieved their banking information, and which authorities had requested the information. Now one European Parliamentarian, Alexander Alvaro says that, once again, the Americans are not honoring their treaties."

62 of 394 comments (clear)

  1. I'm an American... by Palmsie · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...and I don't agree with the stance my government is taking. Just in case all the non-US slashdotters go on about how X, Y, and Z America is. It's not all of us, scouts honor =)

    --
    Carl Sagan quotes get you an automatic +5 on all posts.
    1. Re:I'm an American... by mirix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Usually people don't hate on average American folk (outside of jest at least), so much as they do the people in power, be it senators or CEOs.

      Although the fact that things like the tea party exist, and there is more than one person that likes ayn rand's books, and GWB got voted in twice, and Reagan is the most beloved president in history... those all make that a lot harder ;-)

      I suppose some groups may be more likely to hate Americans as a group (say Islamic fundamentalists that dislike western ideals), but westerners don't so much, I don't think. There are a lot of things I love about the US, and some very horrible things also.

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    2. Re:I'm an American... by rolfwind · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Now, there's one thing you might have noticed I don't complain about: politicians. Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don't fall out of the sky. They don't pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens. This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It's what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain't going to do any good; you're just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it's not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here... like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks. There's a nice campaign slogan for somebody: 'The Public Sucks. Fuck Hope.'"
      --George Carlin

    3. Re:I'm an American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Screw that. I'm American. I don't appreciate the anti-American sentiment--your country, your fuckup people. That's on you, not the US, particularly when it seems there are political reasons to undermine a *justifiably* unpopular treaty from you end.

      I have no clue why the EU would agree to this in treaty form anyways. Really, are you people nuts, or just stroking anti-American sentiment to hide your own stupid decisions?

      I have no clue what the EU would hand over data without review, as the article suggests Europol is. That's on the EU governments/agencies, not the US.

      I have no clue why the BFDI didn't even bother to at least tell the citizen/gov member what data was handed over. After all, they or some EU member agency handed it over to the US, so they know *what* data was handed over. They don't need the US to inform the citizen of that. The US not revealing what agency revealed/reviewed what in that file IS important, but your own gov should be able to tell you that at least your data was accessed, and they seemed really like they didn't even want to do that--again, that's on the EU, not the US

      The BFDI didn't even seem prepared to handle this request in the first place. Just maybe they aren't contacting the right folks across the pond either.

      Lastly, and the point of the article, the US probably isn't honoring the agreement. Not much proof though given outside an agency that was ill-prepared to handle a request in the first place. But given the buffoonery of approving the treaty, providing data info to their citizens regardless of American action which they can certainly do, and the delay they caused on their own end, wow...seems the point of this, whether true or not, is the treaty is going to get pulled.

      And as an American, or particularly if you in the EU, why the phrack is that a bad thing again? You should never have approved the treaty in the first place. If American stupidity or laziness means the treaty is pulled, then good, since you never should have agreed to this shit anyways. Your nation is your nation--quit handing over your info to some other nation out of your control, even if they may be nice, friendly, and a strong ally. Do investigations on your end, and if there's an issue, then turn that crap over to your ally.

      Damn, I'd be pissed if my banking info was handed over to someone in Spain. Particularly, I'd be upset my gov was lazy and didn't want to do the investigation internally, and handed over info with no control over oversight or rights to a country I have little to no rights in if I'm not IN the country. Why would you in turn do this to your own citizens?

    4. Re:I'm an American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      funny story about ayn rand, towards the end of her life she got government help for medical reasons under a pseudonym. She couldn't live up to her own "values". America is full of hypocrites of one color or another. The more stringent the values that they espouse they more they seem to ignore them. Truth is a little bit of tolerance could go a long way.

    5. Re:I'm an American... by Charliemopps · · Score: 2

      And the fact that you two seem to agree that "The World" consists of European leftists, speaks volumes.

    6. Re:I'm an American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No worries, most people, I believe, understand that the US government does not represent all it's people. Those who do really need to get a clue. I'm European by the way.

      But note also that I expect Americans to do something about their government, especially if they claim to be so embarrassed about it. Because either you fix the problem yourselves, or one day I will ask my government to take care of it (for example by not exporting items vital to your industry or by ceasing all police collaboration). It would be better for both of us that you take care of your own government rather than I dictate how your government should behave, but I can't endure your government's awful behavior forever.

      I know it's hard for you guys to reclaim your government, I know your gov has become an entity of it's own, that the American people serve their government instead of the other way around. I know your votes don't count because no matter who you vote for, corporations will just bribe the elected people to swing their way. And with so many elected people in various positions of power it's difficult to have a government made mostly of good people.
      But if you guys are motivated enough, you can do it. It's going to be tough, that's why you need motivation, but it's possible.
      Protest TSA pat-downs by not flying; do not take the train when the government tells you the train is an alternative, instead respond "No, it's not comfortable enough. It's the plane or nothing". When your politicians can't buy whatever they want because business and industry are impaired due to nobody traveling anymore, they'll have to rethink TSA invasive searches.
      I know half of Americans are happy about those TSA searches, but this is just an example of how you can change things provided you have the motivation and the willpower to fight long enough. Even if you don't have money and your vote is worth nothing, you can just use something else as leverage. Labor is strong leverage against the people at the top.
      "Opt-out Day" was a joke because it was supposed to last only one day - it made those who participated feel like they were doing something, but they were actually not achieving anything. Had Opt-out Day lasted 1 month perhaps things would have changed.
      Do you know why some politicians hate Anonymous' DoS attacks so much? Because they last longer than a day and have the potential to last forever. They really don't care about websites being down for a day or two, they can recover from that easily. Customers can't use the service? They'll come back in 3 days when it's working again, no loss at all. But what if the people doing those attacks suddenly decided to make them last 6 months? That's why they try to send these people to jail for as much as a few years when all they did was disrupt a website for 3 days. No matter how much you disapprove of those attacks, you can't deny the punishment far exceeds the crime.

      It is possible for Americans to change their government. You have to do it, otherwise other nations will try and you won't like it (and neither will those other nations. I really want to emphasize that I would not take any joy in my country meddling in yours business).

    7. Re:I'm an American... by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 2

      You can't blame our citizens. Much of our education is propagandized. If you're curious, do some googling on how Conservative Texas school districts influence what's taught in public schools around the country. A few months ago, they were trying to get Thomas Jefferson scrubbed from history; and he's a Libertarian hero!

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    8. Re:I'm an American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      I expect Americans to do something about their government, especially if they claim to be so embarrassed about it.

      It is possible for Americans to change their government.

      Begging the question of why we (Americans) should care what you "expect"... we have changed the Government. If you don't think George W. Bush... followed by Barak Obama... is a change, then I don't know what is!

      Personally, as an American, who has never missed a vote, I hope more folks will be voting on a basis other than a strict "D" or "R" basis.

    9. Re:I'm an American... by mirix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      By American standards, the world is generally a fairly leftist place.

      I think the bulk of non-US /. posters are European or Canadian though, so that is somewhat what I was going for. Not to mention the story is US/EU... I think my statement holds outside of those places though.

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    10. Re:I'm an American... by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem with Ron Paul is this: people would rather have an unprincipled representative who does what they want, than one who is principled and does what they don't want. If you think about this, you'll realize, as depressing as it sounds, it's a fairly reasonable position.

      I like Ron Paul. As far as I can tell, he sticks to his principles. However, I don't agree with what he would do if he were elected president. I don't think the US should be isolationist, and I don't want to go back to the gold standard. I'm not certain that abolishing the fed is a good idea (although recently they have seemed to slide back to their traditional position of ineptness).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    11. Re:I'm an American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Islamic fundamentalists that dislike western ideals" ???

      WTF, it's bullshit like that creates more mindless idiocy than anything else.

      No-one hates Western "ideals", whether Muslim or otherwise.
      "Ideals" are what SHOULD happen.
      What pisses people off is Western PRACTICEs.

      You know, like blaming EVERY Muslim because some of the residents of a Muslim country take umbrage at you killing all their relatives, or blaming all Muslims for "terrorism" because your government picks a Muslim country to blame for 911 - with NO EVIDENCE at all.

      Or turning a blind eye while Israel commits genocide in Palestine and then vetoing any condemnation by others. Or not having a problem with THEIR nukes, but berating Iran for nuclear power.

      It's the hypocrisy and "do as I say, not as I do" mentality that pisses us ALL off about the US.

      It's interesting watching Japan's nuclear probs and thinking about how the US has no problems with THEIR nuclear industry, despite their public admission that they WOULD like nuclear weapons and despite the history WW2.
      Iran has invaded NO-ONE, but aren't allowed the energy, let alone nukes to protect them from Israel - who ARE invaders and killers.

    12. Re:I'm an American... by c0lo · · Score: 2

      If you don't think George W. Bush... followed by Barak Obama... is a change, then I don't know what is!

      Here's my perception: I don't know how it looks from inside US, but from outside it doesn't look any different, certainly not any difference in the good sense of it.
      So, if you do care about the perception from outside, you'll do something. If you don't care, don't be surprise if the rest of the world will start not caring either.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    13. Re:I'm an American... by MoonBuggy · · Score: 2

      You don't have a clue about the Tea Party if you read about it on any media outlet.

      On the one hand, yes, there are some policies put forward by Tea Party candidates that are a breath of fresh air compared to the overwhelming homogeneity seen in the two main parties. On the other hand, there is some blinding stupidity seen not only in the supporters but in some of the candidates too, which rightly tarnishes confidence in the movement as a whole. Some of the ideas that that side of the group are putting forward are downright terrifying, as far as I'm concerned. There's also more than a little hypocrisy in terms of calls for small government coming alongside legislation to enforce a conservative Christian social policy.

    14. Re:I'm an American... by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 2

      Ironic, I would have included Ron Paul and his Supporters near the top of my "reasons the public sucks" list.

    15. Re:I'm an American... by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      See, that's exactly the point. I don't want him to put his money where his mouth is on those points, but I know he would. Therefore I don't want to vote for him (still might, depending on how bad his opponents are).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    16. Re:I'm an American... by jhoegl · · Score: 2

      Here's my perception: I don't know how it looks from inside US, but from outside it doesn't look any different, certainly not any difference in the good sense of it. So, if you do care about the perception from outside, you'll do something. If you don't care, don't be surprise if the rest of the world will start not caring either.

      If it isnt any different, Obama will be voted in again. But it doesn't look like it will happen. Truth is, the Republicans still run the Government.

    17. Re:I'm an American... by mirix · · Score: 2

      I'm curious how you know this. Do you have surveys on the world that show their political views?

      Well, for a simple example - most countries that can afford some sort of public health option... have one.

      El Salvador, for example, tends to favor crime-fighting techniques that would make Sheriff Joe look like Santa Claus; but at the same time, they have a strong communist party. Does this make them left or right? No, it makes them neither.

      It's possible to be leftist and an authoritarian hardass. They aren't mutually exclusive or inclusive. Certainly Stalin was both, among others.

        In China there is strong support for an authoritarian state. By American standards, that is neither left nor right: it is crackpot, wrong, and un-American (really.....democrats accuse Republicans of being authoritarian and like Hitler, and Republicans accuse democrats of the same. It is the universal American insult).

      I'm not really sure what to make of China these days. It's definitely authoritarian. It doesn't seem to be communist (in the Marx sense, nor the Mao/Stalin sense). I don't really know wtf you would call it. Bad, I suppose.

      Kind of ironic that the US is slowly becoming more authoritarian while using the word as an insult.

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    18. Re:I'm an American... by the_womble · · Score: 3

      they're stupid, hypocritical and self serving.

      Just like the rest of the world!

    19. Re:I'm an American... by c0lo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Citation needed.

      Hell, absolutely survival level of google-fu would get it for you. Here's anyway. For the "live up to her own values" - read the "Later years" section. For the " more stringent the values that they espouse" start reading from the beginning of the article.

      (BTW: don't you dare whining TL;DR, it is not a meme I'd expect from a person at your age).

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    20. Re:I'm an American... by KDR_11k · · Score: 2

      The easiest evidence is that the US has no social democrat party and it considers the left/right division to be between liberals and conservatives, both of which are considered right of the center in Europe.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    21. Re:I'm an American... by Sique · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Here we go: http://atheism.about.com/b/2011/02/06/ayn-rand-welfare-queen-living-high-on-government-assistance.htm

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    22. Re:I'm an American... by Redlazer · · Score: 2
      Most European countries, considered to be pretty liberal, tend to have some sort of free health care. In the US, as people outside the US see it, nationalized healthcare is a very polarizing issue that some republicans and conservatives have referred to as socialist - and have been usually followed up with the notion that some country is socialist because of their healthcare policies. It is perhaps one of the most prominent differences, and when the occasional ignorant American visits our countries, they tell us how bad our healthcare is. I realize that a small percentage of Americans believe that - probably shockingly few - but they stick out.

      On the other side of the coin, and I admit I'm not sure on this, but many Middle Eastern countries are conservative - I don't think they have free health care in Oman, or India, or wherever - do they? And while we're at it, does China?

      --
      Guns don't kill people, "with glowing hearts" kills people.
    23. Re:I'm an American... by Luckyo · · Score: 2

      No worries, most people, I believe, understand that the US government does not represent all it's people. Those who do really need to get a clue.

      You missed the point by a mile. As a non-american, my business with them is how they handle the data, not how they choose to rule their masses. Their local issues about who controls what when I'm concerned about privacy of my banking are as irrelevant to me as who controls, say, Libya. It's an internal matter for the country, which is none of my business in this regard. On the other hand, banking privacy is my business, and it's directly impacted by US regime, whatever it represents and whoever it is led by.

    24. Re:I'm an American... by Baki · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You might be mistaken re. westerners. I feel that in Europe, in various countries (at least Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands) in the past few years the young generation has switched from viewing the US as an ally into viewing it as a threat to the world, potentially even an enemy.

      Of course, the US can do what it wants, it is sovereign. But so are we. Don't expect us to take US bribes and threats any longer in the future in order to cooperate with US policies (waging wars, following insane narcotics/drug policies, intellectual property laws).

      It is the old generation that is still in power, that (in part) is still following the US dictate. In a few years, this will be over.

      And I'm not alone in hoping for an economic downfall into poverty of the US. It may hit us too, but at least the money-bribe-saction bully that the US often is will loose its power.

    25. Re:I'm an American... by h4rm0ny · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, but as a European who has lived in the USA, I have to say that the disconnect between the general honesty and politeness of the US people and the actions of the government is very striking. It's all but inexplicable until you turn on a TV and see what passes for news in that country. The American people in my experience are polite, generally nice, and massively uninformed / misinformed. Most US citizens if made aware of this behaviour would, I believe, take the attitude of "if we say we'll do something, we should." Even the ones who don't agree with the act are likely to be of the opinion that the US simply shouldn't have agreed to something it wasn't honestly intending to do.

      I liked it when you overthrew British rule. You were the best you'd ever been, then. I would love to see a return of that willingness to act.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    26. Re:I'm an American... by Tom · · Score: 2

      Usually people don't hate on average American folk (outside of jest at least),

      Actually, lots do, though disdain runs a bit higher than hate. Americans are seen as fat, lazy, stupid bastards in most parts of the world, especially western Europe.

      That wasn't always the case, in fact it's fairly new. It started with Reagon (nobody over here in Europe understood how a mediocre actor could become president), got a bit better with Bush Sr. until the first Iraq war, turned into "crazy" during the Clinton impeachment-for-a-blowjob circus and with GWB the US went off the scale in any measurement of (insert any insulting term here).

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    27. Re:I'm an American... by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 2

      We most certainly can blame US citizens. You are free to think for yourself, choosing not too is not a defense. In a representative democracy there is much more you can do than just vote. But you know what, US citizens don't care as long as they still get cable.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    28. Re:I'm an American... by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 2

      It's an excellent indicator. A public health service is a prerequisite of a social democracy, and even a social democracy is not left wing. The US is to the right of that.

      As for authoritarianism, a good indicator is whether capital punishment exists. In general, like Churchill said, we can judge a society by how it treats its prisoners.

      The US is right-wing and authoritarian. The usual retort to that is comparison with Third World or degenerate regimes, which in turn indicates the low standards to which much of the American public hold themselves. Compare yourself only with the very best, but most importantly of all: compare yourself today with yourself yesterday.

    29. Re:I'm an American... by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 2

      Ha! Barack says "Tell it to the hand!"

      --
      "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    30. Re:I'm an American... by BlueStrat · · Score: 2

      The Americans overthrew British rule for their own interests. It had nothing to do with The Greater Good. This selfish character persists until today and has a lot to do with why a lot of people hate the USA's guts.

      We threw off British rule for much the same reasons every other group has declared independence from their home country; The home country made demands and set conditions upon that group that were intolerable enough to spark revolution. It is no more "selfish" than any other country that is a former colony or split from an existing country like many in the EU.

      Where the US started down the wrong path was with the doctrine of Manifest Destiny. Then the government descended into even further depths of iniquity with the rise of the Progressives with Woodrow Wilson and FDR, where things like the rounding-up and imprisoning of US citizens that peacefully voiced political dissent occurred, and of course the WW2 Japanese-American/Italian/German camps where many thousands of innocent people were imprisoned.

      This era in US history is where the government truly started operating on a "the ends justify the means" basis in a more open and blatant manner as it got better at the art of propaganda, which Goebbels learned from one of Wilson's advisers.

      This bad behavior continues to grow, only limited by mass public outrage, and that grows ever-less as people become desensitized, to the current day where the government is now feeling itself powerful enough to completely ignore the Constitution and the people, even working around the people's representation in Congress through Executive-appointed unelected bureaucrats and government departments and their myriad regulations.

      Those in the US government that have kept us on this path have made the ideological decision to abandon morals, principles, and honor for money, power, and hatred for the roaring success of Capitalism. The US government has nearly succeeded in destroying all trust in it by both it's own citizens as well as it's allies and other countries.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    31. Re:I'm an American... by xaxa · · Score: 2

      Most European countries, considered to be pretty liberal, tend to have some sort of free health care.

      All of them, as far as I know, have some sort of free health care. Certainly all the EU countries, and the other western ones, and the ones that want to join the EU -- maybe Georgia and Armenia aren't so great, I don't know.

      On the other side of the coin, and I admit I'm not sure on this, but many Middle Eastern countries are conservative - I don't think they have free health care in Oman, or India, or wherever - do they? And while we're at it, does China?

      India does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_India
      Oman does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Oman
      China does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China

    32. Re:I'm an American... by scorp1us · · Score: 2

      It is important to remember that when a man of principal speaks, he is speaking axiomatically. In reality though, the true solution lies between here and the solution. Case and point: his stance on the fed. He wants it gone, but he's just trying to audit it now. The big change might come later after the audit. And every politician knows, drastic changes create social upheaval and that's a sure way to not get reelected.

      What can be expected isn't radical sweeping changes even though his speeches identify that as a goal. Rather what you can expect is progress towards that goal. Eventually the situation will become rectified some where between the extremes and the focus will move on to a subject of more value. Look at social movements. When they start out, there is widespread support, and it accomplishes its goals. As the goals are achieved, people stop participating, leaving only the extremists. This is why any social movement eventually produces extremists and eventually becomes marginalized.

      --
      Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
  2. And so what? by Gothmolly · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And what are they going to do about it, send a strongly worded letter?

    Dump a few 100 billion in bonds if you want to kick the US in the jimmy.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:And so what? by CaptainZapp · · Score: 2

      And what are they going to do about it, send a strongly worded letter?

      Cancelling the agreement ?

      I can assure you, that the EU parliament will be extremely unhappy about this one.

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

  3. A real shame by bkk_diesel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm not sure where to find a list of treaties that the United States has failed to honor (did a quick search and nothing obvious popped up), but it seems to me that as time goes on the Americans are losing more and more credibility on the world stage. The start of the real decline seemed to happen with the latest invasion of Iraq and really accelerated through the term of G.W. Bush. This is my perspective as a non-American living outside of the United States, but do the majority of people inside the U.S. realize how much they've lost on the world stage over the past decade?
    In a way the decline reminds me of the local police - 30 or 40 years ago the local police were your friend - someone you could go to and talk to and who would be willing to help you out. These days it seems like you're best off staying as far away from the police as possible.
    Does anyone else see things in a similar way?

    1. Re:A real shame by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm also not from the US, and not living in the US (But I am an American, just like all Mexicans, Canadians, Cubans, and any other people living in America, which is a fucking continent).

      I know a lot of people from the US, and I can tell you something, you can split them into three categories:

      - Those that have no idea
      - Those that think they have an idea, but they really don't.
      - Those that have already moved out of the states.

      Think about this: In 99% of the world, "Liberal" is a word used to describe those in the far right. In the US, that is the far left. The entire world considers the Red October to be one of the most important revolutions in history, a step in the right direction for Russia, and can differentiate between what Marx and Engels thought and what guys like Lenin did, from the barbaric stuff that people like Stalin did. The US thinks that the Red October was a coup d' etat organized by the evil reds. Around the world Communism means "YASPS" (Yet another Socio Political System). In the US, it means the devil's work. Less than 2% of US citizens are actual Atheists. Around the world, the world "Evangelical" is sort of an insult, the religions that are stock in the US are considered cults around the world, and mostly frowned upon.

      Try talking to someone from the US that considers himself "leftist". You'll realize that, hadn't he told you so, you would consider him to be on the far right.

      All governments are evil, the difference is that the US has the support of 99% of all its citizens. They have truly drank all of the Kool Aid.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    2. Re:A real shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Interesting question. I'm 40, live i Norway - a socialist democracy (you know... what most Americans associate with Hitler.. sigh...).

      When I was younger, I and everyone I knew lover America. We we happy to have a superpower that also was a beacon of freedom and democracy.
      Today, as you middleclass crumble and you have lost control over your own politicans, you don't even revolt. Is the propaganda that effective?

      I find it hilarious that poor right-wingers voted to let the rich not pay taxes (compared to average joe). The propaganda surely is working.

      However, even here, and especially in EU, the same stuff is happeing. We are about to face a world where being a human does not matter unless you have money. This will bring down the western civilisations eventually, if it continues.

    3. Re:A real shame by SteveFoerster · · Score: 2

      Cops were better forty years ago? I'm guessing you're not black.

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    4. Re:A real shame by angus77 · · Score: 2

      Yes, why don't Americans realize that those of us in the rest of the world have one homogeneous worldview?

    5. Re:A real shame by 1u3hr · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure where to find a list of treaties that the United States has failed to honor

      Just about every treaty you made with the Native Americans.

      And I'm pretty sure the Geneva Convention is being ignored in Guantanamo .

    6. Re:A real shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a little homework assignment for all Americans, watch the news over the next few days. After watching, try to find similar stories from other countries and see how they report it..

      Well, I watch a little Faux News and CNN to see what the Liberal and Conservative Spin happens to be, then I usually turn on the BBC and Al-Jazeera to get some perspectives from Europe and the Middle East, and will also tune into some Japanese or Korean stations and get some Asian perspective on things. Overall, it seems like the Europeans bitch about everything we do (or don't do) but focus mostly on war and the environment, the Middle East bitches about anything related to Israel or religion, and Asia usually only really bitches when it's about Economics.

      Here's a small list to start with of treaties which weren't honored: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_treaties_did_the_US_break_with_native_Americans [answers.com]

      I find this to be the perfect example of why Americans are really tired of listening to the whine. First, those treaties were with people in our own country, not others, and just FYI to the world that story isn't even over yet. We STILL are working stuff out in the court systems with various Tribes.
      But the reason I bring it up is because if you're going to dig back to the 1700 and 1800, then it's only fair to do the same thing to the countries which are giving us criticism. And most of them have a MUCH more sordid history, and in all the exact areas that the world bitches at us. Unbridled expansion at the expense of the Native populations, raping the environment, slavery, murder, extortion, broken treaties, you name it and I'll show you a country on every continent that has committed all those crimes to a much worse degree than America.

      So to be blunt, those who are critical of us really need to take a long hard look in the mirror. Because the Truth is that the US has not cornered the market on being a bunch of stuck up, arrogant assholes. Although we DO have plenty of them, I'm not denying it. I just really think a lot of people have a pretty skewed sense of what's been going on in the world over the last 100 years.

    7. Re:A real shame by sa1lnr · · Score: 2

      In a way the decline reminds me of the local police - 30 or 40 years ago the local police were your friend - someone you could go to and talk to and who would be willing to help you out. These days it seems like you're best off staying as far away from the police as possible.
      Does anyone else see things in a similar way?

      Do you mean back before the general public had access to miniaturised sound/video recording equipment
      and the vast communications networks we have today?

      I can tell you from personal experience that the police have never been your cuddly friend

    8. Re:A real shame by Domini+Canes · · Score: 2

      what guys like Lenin did, from the barbaric stuff that people like Stalin did.

      That made me laugh. Care to enlighten us what barbaric stuff Stalin did, what Lenin did not
      (or to put more correctly: what barbaric stuff was being done in Stalin times and in Lenin times).

      a quick note, to take some options from the table: concentration camps existed in both Stalin and Lenin times, and are even older. I don't know who invented this concept, but if I am not mistaken, they were already known as concept and operational in Anglo-Boer War times (~1900ies)

    9. Re:A real shame by dkleinsc · · Score: 2

      In a way the decline reminds me of the local police - 30 or 40 years ago the local police were your friend - someone you could go to and talk to and who would be willing to help you out. These days it seems like you're best off staying as far away from the police as possible.

      Actually, that depends. If you aren't white and are male, then generally speaking the local police hasn't been a friend to you or your family. Ever. It doesn't matter if you're a respected academic, walking down the street minding your own business, or standing in front of your home.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  4. Misleading headline and summary by Blackeagle_Falcon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    TFA talks about Alvaro's efforts to obtain information about U.S. access to his account data from the German Federal Commissioner for Data Protection and Freedom of Information (BFDI). From the article BDFI seems to be some Kafkaesque bureaucracy. He submitted the original request in October. After repeated requests for more and different personal information, the BDFI finally forwarded the request to the U.S. authorities at the beginning of this month. The hang up here does not seem to be on the American side.

    1. Re:Misleading headline and summary by countertrolling · · Score: 2

      Easy.. If this is the result, it is by design, not by defect.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
  5. Note to Europeans by russotto · · Score: 3, Funny

    We have altered the deal. Pray we do not alter it further.
        -- Obama

  6. AND WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? by mykos · · Score: 2

    Seems our government uses the above response quite often when questioned by the international community.

  7. So let's see if I got this straight... by mark-t · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Stop me if I make any mistakes here...

    When another country does something that the USA doesn't like, the USA gets all up in arms about it and either invades the nation with the intent of "setting them free", or else they impose quite intense political and/or economical pressure on the nation to comply with their expectations.

    When the USA does something that another country doesn't like and the other country dares to point this out, the USA basically goes "Meh." Because they figure that there's squat all that anybody else can do about it.

    Just wanting to be sure I know where things stand.

    --
    File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    1. Re:So let's see if I got this straight... by syousef · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Grow up, there is evil and corruption everywhere. EVERYWHERE

      /quote>

      Yes but when's the last time evil and corruption in the UK or Australia or Zimbabwe had a direct effect on you? The US has enemies because the US has influence. Very few nations -China and India come to mind - have policies that will affect so many people's lives and their influence is usually still limited to their own borders.. The EU as a conglomerate of nations also has power. But the US seeks to have more influence outside it's borders than pretty much any other nation.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    2. Re:So let's see if I got this straight... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actually, there is one country in Europe that doesn't take shit from the USA: Switzerland.

      First of all, Switzerland must be the only country who realized the USA is arming itself to conquer the world .While the USA keeps claiming that future conflicts will be against terrorists and fought against guerrillas, they still arm themselves with weapons designed to fight armies, like the Navy's railguns. I don't know why nobody else noticed this discrepancy, but the Swiss certainly did.

      Second, the Swiss are preparing to fight back. They have always been good fighters and it's rumored that their infantry can take down AC-130 Specter Gunships with just an automatic rifle. Don't know if it's true, but the CIA does nickname Switzerland "Europe's Bermuda Triangle" so I'm guessing they lost a few planes when violating the Swiss airspace (it could hardly have been boats).

      Third, the Swiss also have their entire country made of a) forests b) mountains or c) both. Abrams thanks just can't get in there, and even if they did, two Swiss troopers armed with a single pistol (that's one pistol for 2 soldiers, not one pistol per soldier) can capture a tank and it's crew (the unarmed soldier is just there so the tank crew don't feel totally p0wned, that would be considered unethical treatment under the Geneva Convention).
      As for their forests, well have you seen the Empire Strikes Back? Remember the traps the Ewoks set up? Well imagine those traps, but scattered over an entire country, and some of them use explosives for extra effect. And the Swiss also have mountains, which the Ewoks didn't have.

      Fourth, a popular activity in Switzerland is hunting US operatives. It's kind of a hobby over there. When the Swiss identify, say, a CIA agent in their country, they usually find an excuse to lure him deep in a forest. Telling him there's an Al Qaeda training camp is usually a great excuse. Then they abandon him there, go home, eat fondue in the evening, and the next morning they go back in the forest with rifles to start the hunt. The Swiss authorities don't do anything against that, it's kind of a national sport. Police reports usually conclude that the CIA agent was killed by a bear armed with a machine-gun. Well Swiss bears could be that badass actually. Oh, and you know the saying "In ... nobody can hear you scream"? Switzerland is full of mountains, so your voice will echo and plenty of people WILL hear you scream. They just won't care.

      Fifth, the Swiss have become expert tunnel diggers. In fact they dug a tunned under France, the Atlantic ocean, and all the way to the Oval Office in the White House in Washington. The plot was to use it for an offensive when the USA finally tried to conquer the world. The Americans found it 100 years after it was dug, when they decided to build an escape tunnel for the president.
      Rumor has the Swiss also dug a tunnel to Mars and have prepared a surprise party to welcome the arrival of the NASA in 2020.

      Sixth, the Swiss have the CERN, which is this high-tech laboratory where they build Black Hole Bombs, Gravity Rifles, Anti-Matter-coated Swiss Army Knives, teleporting grenades, invisible skiis and heat-seeking pistol ammo.

      And finally, what makes the Swiss so strong is that they have balls of graphene. They do not bend to the USA, no matter what. Remember they even let a pedophile go free because the US government wouldn't fill and bitched about some paperwork! (Then again, the USA probably would have just given him a job in an airport anyway).

      So to answer your question, you are only 99% right. There is at least one country on this planet that does stand up to the USA.

    3. Re:So let's see if I got this straight... by jpapon · · Score: 2
      That influence stems from the fact that the US, along with the Soviets (and fine, the Brits, but they really just became another US state), conquered the world in 1945. The US had a much more subtle, and effective, policy of overseeing it's subjects than the Soviets, and so managed to hold on to it's gains for longer. But while the US outlasted the USSR, it too must eventually see its dominance over the world end.

      Then we'll have a situation where various nations all have about the same amount of power. Then we'll (probably) have a massive war, in which one (or two allies) will triumph, and dominate the world again.

      So, yes, you can hate the United States... but consider the alternatives.

      Personally, I pray that the Dutch will be the next major superpower. The world would be a great place if they were...

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
  8. Re:Big surprise by mysidia · · Score: 2

    The European Parliament is so gullible, a few handwaving promises about the US handling the data according to EU rules and the EU developing its own storage system with the purpose of exporting data in a more controlled manner "within five years", and they drop all previous opposition...

    If they have a shred of guts in their entire body, then they'll take the US failure to uphold their end, and stop upholding their end / shut down whatever systems thay are providing that are not being used as agreed.

    If they don't, then, well, they don't. Kind of think the US government needs to learn a lesson eventually -- possibly the hard way; HOPEFULLY in a way that doesn't do any damage to the US people beyond a slap on the wrist (?)

  9. Re:things are actually better than they seem by Professr3 · · Score: 2

    Yes, but that's no reason to accept the status quo. Here's a quick hyperbole mixed with Godwin's Law: If I shot you in the face, it's fine because it was worse in Nazi Germany - they'd shoot you in the back.

  10. You know what I miss? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That feeling from when I was a kid that there was anything remotely honorable about my country's conduct.

    1. Re:You know what I miss? by ledow · · Score: 2

      The problem is that at least some of the time, the disaster that strikes a foreign nation is the US "helping". Admittedly, sometimes there an earthquake or something instead but at that point *every* country rushes to help because they know they might want the same in return some day.

      The US creates vastly more problems that it solves and, worse, drags its allies in to those problems too.

  11. Bullies... by suss · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Bullies rarely keep their promises.

    That's what the US has become to the rest of the world; nothing more than bullies.

  12. Re:Big surprise by jandersen · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Gullible? Perhaps that is what you would call it; personally I think it is about being friends - friends don't ask for guarantees cast in iron, they trust each other. We in Europe have tended to see America as friends at least sine WWII.

    "Gullible" implies that we should have known better; that America is not a friend, but at best a predator with a false smile, and at worst an enemy. Is that really the case?

  13. Hold your horses... RTFA. by jimicus · · Score: 2

    This is a very badly worded headline, obviously intended to promote anti-US sentiment when the article itself does nothing of the sort.

    I'll distil it for those who still can't be bothered to RTFA after I've said it's worth reading:

    "Alexander Alvaro has spent some time trying to determine whether or not his bank details have been accessed by contacting the regulator in his own country (Germany). The regulator stalled him for several months by requesting ID in various formats, and hadn't even forwarded the request to US authorities until shortly before the article was written. The regulator confirmed that they don't hold this information themselves."

    We have no evidence that the US authorities were approached earlier and that they're responsible for the stalling, we have no evidence to explain how long it takes for such requests to come back (it was only sent earlier this month, for all we know it's sent via snail mail). And to cap it all we have no evidence to suggest that the journalist responsible for this article thought to contact German authorities and ask the reason for the delay. The best we have is:

    At the beginning of this month, the BFDI confirmed that Alvaro's request had finally been sent to US authorities [....] The agency criticized that the person requesting information about how personal data has been used must submit additional personal information in order to learn whether the US has made use of their data.

    To me this suggests it's possible the journalist approached them and received a non-answer. But it's equally possible that the journalist is paraphrasing a form letter received by Alvaro saying "Dear Sir, we've sent your request to US authorities, apologies for the delay".

    1. Re:Hold your horses... RTFA. by djmurdoch · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think that's an accurate summary. When describing the delay, the article says "There was, still no agreement between the US authorities and the BFDI. The American authorities would require still more data from the applicant." That sure sounds as though there were discussions taking place with the Americans, and the Americans were unclear or inconsistent about what was needed.

      There's also the quote from the MEP, ""The German authorities have not yet been able to find out whether data has been accessed at all. As such, the rights of EU citizens on correction, deletion or blockage of the data are being violated."

      And the headline of the original article: "Problems with Transparency. Brussels Eyes a Halt to SWIFT Data Agreement"

      So I think in this case Slashdot got the anti-American sentiment of the article about right.

  14. Worth noting, RTFA by AJH16 · · Score: 2

    Nothing in the article actually points to the US authorities as being the cause of this breach. Everything in the article seems to be European agencies not getting the ball rolling. I don't see any evidence of anything nefarious or dishonest by the US government in this article. Does anyone have any article that indicates any wrong doing at all by the US as the title of the /. post suggests?

    --
    AJ Henderson