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How Is Obama Doing On Open Government?

An anonymous reader writes "OMB Watch today published an in-depth analysis of the Obama administration's progress on a wide-ranging set of open government recommendations. Key findings of the report include strong and consistent leadership from the White House on government openness and meaningful utilization of e-government and Web 2.0 technologies. But there has been no high-level effort to improve electronic records management and preservation, and the implementation of improved Freedom of Information Act policies has lagged."

285 comments

  1. HAHA, oh wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    That's a trick question, right? Like asking if you've stopped beating your wife?

    1. Re:HAHA, oh wow by flaming+error · · Score: 0

      No, it's a perfectly valid question.

      Yes I have. Now she beats me.

    2. Re:HAHA, oh wow by Culture20 · · Score: 3, Funny

      you've stopped beating your wife?

      We don't have the time to play Settlers of Catan these days, so yes.

  2. Well....he certainly talks a good game by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank. " - Barack Obama, October 27, 2007

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr9ywEFRQkQ

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    1. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 0, Troll

      Bait and switch. But, were it possible for a President to initiate and enable change, the office would be eliminated.

      Barack Obama appears to spring, fully-formed, from the head of Zeus, at the 2004 DNC. That's a sure sign of someone who has been crafted, behind the scenes.

      He was always Lieberman's protege. When it was very-well understood that Hillary would not win an election as president, the crypto-corporate DLC folks used a fake-fight for primaries to set-up the insertion of Hillary as SoS. There, she is completely responsible for the management of Foreign Policy - or should it be more appropriately named as Imperial Adventure.

      You Americans have been so gamed, for so long, you think it is in your own interest to manage world affairs! I assure you, it is not.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    2. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by revscat · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Reality: Recent history seems to show that there are two things no President has the power to affect: the Pentagon and Wall Street. Presidents can only begin new actions. They cannot end or meaningfully decrease existing ones where boots are on the ground.

      We'll see what happens with Libya. If it turns into a Serbian-style air campaign, then we will be in and out relatively quickly. But if the Marines or Army get involved, we will be there indefinitely.

    3. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      " You can take that to the bank." ... But only one the government owns.

    4. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by msauve · · Score: 2

      By modern "law," as Commander-in-Chief, he has full control of the military. In most other things, it's a figurehead position. Congress can stop military actions by eliminating funding, but as long as they leave funding in place, they really can't do anything. The war powers clause has simply been ignored (not that the current majority would shut down current military actions). There's no example of the converse, where Congress declared war, and the Executive failed to act.

      All that said, since Congress hasn't declared war, the Executive has complete authority to shut down any military actions.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    5. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by revscat · · Score: 1

      I think you have that backwards. The banks own the government.

    6. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Troll

      You need to vote for the oppressive health care bill in order to find out what's in it.
      - death panels
      - $100 billion funding hidden in bill
      - unconstitutional, but ignore that
      - more expensive than most existing plans
      - covers less than most existing plans
      - you don't pay, you go to ass rape jail
      - unless you get on the exclude list, by being an Obama campaign supplier
      - free mammograms, only costing $300 each

    7. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There seem to be people that think the government is taking over everything and there are those that think the corporations are taking over. Sorry, but people that see the government "taking over" are delusional. There is plenty of evidence, on the other hand, that the corporations are at best APPROVING everything that is the government is doing (especially in congress) and at worst DICTATING everything that is happening. I find the threat of a country run solely at the whims of what the corporate elite want MUCH more frighting than some non-existent fear the the government is going to take over everything. (Oddly, the same people complaining about government getting involved in everything are for restricting access to abortions. Try to figure that one out...)

    8. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by DigiShaman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ...you think it is in your own interest to manage world affairs! I assure you, it is not.

      Maybe if the rest of the world would step in to help rather than cower in the face of adversity, we (Americans) wouldn't have to be all that involved. At least France has the balls to stand up to Muammar Gaddafi. Which is more than I can say for our current administration.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    9. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      See above. Delusional.

    10. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      "You can take that to the bank. "

      ...and we see how well the banks are doing these days...

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    11. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      See above. Delusional.

      ...yeah, about that. Work just notified me that due to the Obamacare bullshit the rate to cover my family jumped from about $600/mo to over $1,000/mo. Thanks Obamacare.

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    12. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Wiarumas · · Score: 1, Interesting

      And then he got intel fit for a President and reversed his position. He must have good reason - ultimately I trust the man's judgment. I'm sure I would reverse my stance as well if I heard some compelling evidence to do so.

      --
      I will bend like a reed in the wind.
    13. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, simpleton - perhaps you think corporations and the government both growing to take over everything are somehow mutually exclusive? Even in the supposed case of the evil giant company taking over everything - do you think companies should be able to snuff out competitors using anti-competetive practices? Do you think the government might be complicit in allowing companies to merge and grow to the point that they become "too big to fail" and require taxpayer bailouts when their mismanagement becomes too large to ignore?

    14. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. You really need to find another employer with benefits that don't suck. My rates went down a little and were only 2/3rd yours to begin with.

    15. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      That's a sure sign of someone who has been crafted, behind the scenes.

      If he had been 'crafted' I'm pretty sure they'd have made him the proper color.

      You Americans have been so gamed, for so long, you think it is in your own interest to manage world affairs! I assure you, it is not.

      That is absolutely true. But make sure the people you think are doing the "gaming" actually have the resources and motive to do so. You're looking in the wrong direction, friend.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    16. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Congress can stop military actions by eliminating funding, but as long as they leave funding in place, they really can't do anything.

      Congress will never shut down any military action by eliminating funding. There's too much profit to be made by the people who pay their bills.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    17. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      At least France has the balls to stand up to Muammar Gaddafi.

      By "stand up to" do you mean "shake their finger at him"? France has plenty military assets to put up a no-fly zone all on their own if they wanted to. So do the Arab states. So do a lot of countries.

      But since we're constantly being told "we're broke" by the majority in the House of Representatives (from whom all funding comes) how are we Americans supposed to do anything about Gaddafi if we can't afford the fuel for our planes to get over there?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    18. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Work is lying to you. ObamaCare does nothing more than allow you to buy insurance from a private company. Any price increase after a year or so ago is just plain profiteering. This is why we need healthcare reform in this country not the weak watered down insurance reform bill.

      gp needs to quit listening to Beck, Palin and other nut jobs and learn how to read.

    19. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      If it turns into a Serbian-style air campaign

      If it turns into a "Serbian-style" conflict, then we'll be helping the wrong side yet again.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    20. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by darjen · · Score: 2

      Ridiculous. We (Americans) most certainly don't have to be "involved". And by involved, I'm assuming you mean police the world and occupy it militarily. Fuck that shit.

    21. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but there is an example where the Congress has funded a military effort planned in advance but the executive stopped it from execution: Bay of Pigs.

    22. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by atriusofbricia · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And then he got intel fit for a President and reversed his position. He must have good reason - ultimately I trust the man's judgment. I'm sure I would reverse my stance as well if I heard some compelling evidence to do so.

      Or he's a stuffed shirt politician who could give any other politician a run for their money in the area of saying what is needed to get elected.

      Even if he did start his campaign for President virtually 10 minutes after becoming one, he was a Senator on the Foreign Relations committee. Do you suppose that might have included access to some of that special President intel? hmmm?

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    23. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Oddly, the same people complaining about government getting involved in everything are for restricting access to abortions. Try to figure that one out...)

      I'm not. Dis-proven in one.

    24. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      Congress can stop military actions by eliminating funding, but as long as they leave funding in place, they really can't do anything.

      Congress will never shut down any military action by eliminating funding. There's too much profit to be made by the people who pay their bills.

      No. It's because any congressman that voted to leave our military men and women overseas in a hostile zone without beans, bandaids or bullets would be skewered in the next election.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    25. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by ArcherB · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There seem to be people that think the government is taking over everything and there are those that think the corporations are taking over. Sorry, but people that see the government "taking over" are delusional. There is plenty of evidence, on the other hand, that the corporations are at best APPROVING everything that is the government is doing (especially in congress) and at worst DICTATING everything that is happening. I find the threat of a country run solely at the whims of what the corporate elite want MUCH more frighting than some non-existent fear the the government is going to take over everything. (Oddly, the same people complaining about government getting involved in everything are for restricting access to abortions. Try to figure that one out...)

      Sorry, but I don't believe that the majority of corporations like many things this government is doing. For example:
      Higher healthcare premiums.
      Higher minimum wage.
      Higher corporate taxes.
      Skewering companies that send employees and management to "seminars" at hot vacations spots (Vegas hates him)
      Backing unions over corporations 100% of the time.
      Backing laws like "employees must pay union dues, even if they don't belong to the union."
      Backing laws like "union votes will be open so that those hairy guys from Jersey with gold chains and jogging clothes pushing for the union who know where you live will know exactly how you voted (gotta keep it fair, you know).
      Taking over various corporations and firing management.
      Bailing out the competition.
      Setting strict guidelines for accepting bailout money (like you must higher more minorities or use "green" tech)
      Forcing companies that don't want bailout money to take bail out money ...

      Need I go on?

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    26. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      Wow. You really need to find another employer with benefits that don't suck. My rates went down a little and were only 2/3rd yours to begin with.

      You must live in Maine.

      My health care costs nearly doubled from $160/mo to $300/mo with no change in benefits.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    27. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Wiarumas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, I do not believe that a Senator on the Foreign Relations committee has the same intelligence as the Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces who has multiple meetings daily with Pentagon staff. Don't get me wrong, I believe all politicians lie to get elected, but in the case of war, there are many things that are not leaked to the general public. Can you honestly say that any individual would stay at war with no justifiable cause - as if he is doing a maniacal laugh in the Oval Office for the suckers who voted for him? Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I'd like to think that he doesn't want to be at war, but has rationalized it to the point of being more beneficial for the American voters who voted for him to stay at war.

      --
      I will bend like a reed in the wind.
    28. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      See above. Delusional.

      Oh wow! You are so right.

      The way you didn't challenge any of his arguments at all has completely convinced me.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    29. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by ArcherB · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Work is lying to you. ObamaCare does nothing more than allow you to buy insurance from a private company. Any price increase after a year or so ago is just plain profiteering. This is why we need healthcare reform in this country not the weak watered down insurance reform bill.

      gp needs to quit listening to Beck, Palin and other nut jobs and learn how to read.

      Really. That's it? So if "ObamaCare does nothing more than allow you to buy insurance from a private company", why does it cost over a trillion dollars? And if "ObamaCare does nothing more than allow you to buy insurance from a private company.", why is it over 2000 pages long? You just wrote the whole thing in one sentence.

      So, either you are incredibly gullible, woefully ignorant, or the government is much more inefficient that I could possibly imagine. Actually, I think someone is lying their ass off to this guy, but it's not his work.

      Maybe you should listen to Beck and Palin more because whoever you are listening to has steered you horribly wrong. You actually believe that it costs a trillion dollars and over 2000 pages to pass a law that "does nothing more than allow you to buy insurance from a private company" and then you call Beck and Palin "nutjobs"? That's the funniest thing I've heard all day!

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    30. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      He is the proper color. (Although I don't think he's been crafted. The fit and finish would be much more impressive if he were. He's just made some very lucky choices in his life.)

    31. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by demonlapin · · Score: 5, Interesting

      William Safire, before he was a New York Times columnist, worked as a speechwriter for Nixon. He wrote a book called Before the Fall about the pre-Watergate Nixon White House, and it's a pretty interesting set of stories about the man. One particularly informative anecdote is the story of Nixon trying to tear down a "temporary" building that had been erected on Pennsylvania Ave during WW2 as an office building (for the Navy, IIRC), on the grounds that it was unnecessary and architecturally inappropriate for the setting. It took the full might of the Presidency two years to get it torn down - much of which was spent fighting not Congress, but the Federal bureaucracy.

    32. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Actually it would be the president's fault for leaving them there. If there's no funding he's obligated to bring them home post haste, or face the consequences.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    33. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Question: How does Obama's cock taste? I only ask, because you seem like one of his hive-mind droids who would give their left nut for the chance to gobble your nigger messiah's cock.

    34. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by khallow · · Score: 1

      But since we're constantly being told "we're broke" by the majority in the House of Representatives (from whom all funding comes) how are we Americans supposed to do anything about Gaddafi if we can't afford the fuel for our planes to get over there?

      A country doesn't go "broke" like a person does. The US is about to lose its fiscal credibility. For example, after the recent announcement of the "no-fly zone" ruling, German bonds bounced up more than US bonds did. I see that as meaning that German bonds are collectively considered more secure than US bonds are. Several huge fund managers (PIMCO, Vangard) have announced a complete divestment from US bonds. China's US bond holdings are starting to drop.

      So why is the US considered to be so unreliable? Its recent huge deficits (an avalanche of debt on top of the terrible spending of the past administration), its inability to control spending, poor recovery from a deep recession, and a leadership that has sullenly undermined the US economy at a time of great need. None of those can be blamed on the current Republican House.

    35. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by atriusofbricia · · Score: 1

      No, I do not believe that a Senator on the Foreign Relations committee has the same intelligence as the Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces who has multiple meetings daily with Pentagon staff. Don't get me wrong, I believe all politicians lie to get elected, but in the case of war, there are many things that are not leaked to the general public. Can you honestly say that any individual would stay at war with no justifiable cause - as if he is doing a maniacal laugh in the Oval Office for the suckers who voted for him? Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I'd like to think that he doesn't want to be at war, but has rationalized it to the point of being more beneficial for the American voters who voted for him to stay at war.

      He may, or may not, have had access to a substantial amount of the intelligence that he does as President. Of course, neither of us really know. Much like I said to someone else in this thread, he couldn't just wave a magic wand and sprinkle some unicorn dust and make it happen. Sure, he probably would like to withdraw and for whatever reason hasn't been able to do so. The only point I was trying to make was that he most likely knew it wouldn't be that easy when he said it. I know, silly to actually hope for some form of honesty out of any politician, no? :)

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    36. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by erstazi · · Score: 2

      In and out with the Serbian-style air campaign? The U.S. still has troops on the ground in Kosovo and Bosnia. They have been there since that Serbian-style air campaign. And no, they are not wearing blue helmets.

    37. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by icebraining · · Score: 1

      We wish you didn't. You're experts in Pyrrhic victories.

    38. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by micheas · · Score: 1

      Most banks had near record profits in 2010.

    39. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of that stuff the "gov't" was doing was done a long time ago (see when union laws were passed for example). Higher healthcare premiums are a result of 3 things, the insurance industry, (read corporations) the insurance industry, and wall street (the insurance industry at its worst can be considered a stock market pyramid scheme. Higher minimum wage is meaningless to most corporations (they tend to pay more anyway, the true small businesses *single owner or partnership type businesses* are usually the ones that don't like minimum wage laws cause they make growth cost more).

      Higher corporate taxes tend to appease the public, while the more and more creative loopholes make the corporations not give a crap (whatever various CEO's, PRT's, etc want to say for public consumption about why they are raising prices, laying off workers, not paying dividends, etc.).

      Taking over various corporations and firing management might have pissed off the management, but the Board of Directors and probably various stockholders of things like say GM, BOA, etc have to absolutely thrilled especially since it let them get away without massively strenghthened regulatory controls that might OH have smacked them silly in light of the messes the public percieves them to have made (Not entirely unfairly IMO).

    40. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by icebraining · · Score: 2

      He didn't make any arguments, he stated a bunch of statements. It's him who should prove them true.

    41. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by hedwards · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Higher healthcare premiums? I'm going to have to call bullshit on that. You act as though they weren't rising out of control prior to healthcare reform. Everybody with half or more of a brain knew that in the short term premiums were going to go up. It's inevitable when you're requiring insurance companies to stop with the pre-existing condtions and booting people for getting sick. And this is the first year that they're required by law to spend at least 80% on actual healthcare for covering individuals or small businesses and 85% for those issuing large polices.

    42. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by rhook · · Score: 2

      The Bay of Pigs was not aborted, it was a failure. In fact it was an embarrassment for Kennedy.

    43. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by rhook · · Score: 1

      France has plenty military assets to put up a no-fly zone all on their own if they wanted to.

      The problem is that their military assets are armed with little more than white flags.

    44. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by rhook · · Score: 1

      The government does not own the Federal Reserve, it is a privately owned, for-profit, financial institution.

    45. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by khallow · · Score: 2

      Oddly, the same people complaining about government getting involved in everything are for restricting access to abortions

      Not true here either. Should I find it "odd" that someone who thinks government taking over is a "delusion" also happens to be someone with a bee up their corset about bible thumping?

      I find the threat of a country run solely at the whims of what the corporate elite want MUCH more frighting than some non-existent fear the the government is going to take over everything.

      I wonder why you ignore history. There are a lot of examples of governments that took over everything, or controlled everything in the first place. The US is fairly unusual in being a long lived representative democracy. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but the entire US government is set up with distrust of government first and foremost. Balance of powers between federal and state governments, and between the three branches of the federal government, all backed up with the Bill of Rights. Many of the founders wrote extensive of their distrust of government.

      Also, I wonder what you think an overly powerful US government would look like? Frankly, one that can take away my ability to buy incandescent light bulbs qualifies.

    46. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hah, yeah, I'd like a stab at that. Almost by statistical definition, if things were so scary, more terrible things would be happening in spite of their attempts. No, there is nothing special about the intel our Presidents receive. They are just unprincipled men whose notion of leadership is limited to slinging mud at political enemies. None of them has ever seriously considered a doctrine of dis-entanglement for five minutes, even before taking office.

    47. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by whoop · · Score: 1

      Isn't that the exact thing Republicans said of President Bush?

      Back in reality, there are huge differences between campaigning (tell you want you want to hear) and governing (getting it done). Likewise, this will now be Obama's biggest difficulty coming next year. If the Republicans can find someone personable enough to ask the right questions, it could be an easy election...

    48. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      Most banks had near record profits in 2010.

      I'm sure there are a *ton* of banks out there--but this list says more than a few didn't have record profits...

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    49. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by WrongMonkey · · Score: 1

      Nah. The way you describe it, it would take someone actually competent to be running things.

    50. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you honestly say that any individual would GO TO war with no justifiable cause - as if he is doing a maniacal laugh in the Oval Office for the suckers who voted for him?

      There...fixed that for ya!

    51. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Belial6 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Once the full disaster that was Bush was visible, there was no question that the Democrats would run either a woman or a black person. The only surprise was that it wasn't a black woman. I'm not saying that Obama wasn't the best choice the public as allowed to choose from, but if you think his color worked against him, you are very naive.

    52. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Once the full disaster that was Bush was visible, there was no question that the Democrats would run either a woman or a black person. The only surprise was that it wasn't a black woman.

      Oprah?

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    53. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Muslim terrorists? You don't say...

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    54. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      lol Republicans.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    55. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SOOOOooooo..... Bush was correct and Obama was wrong during Obama's campaign?

    56. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      How so?

    57. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Radtoo · · Score: 1

      If it turns into a "Serbian-style" conflict, then we'll be helping the wrong side yet again.

      Assuming you're a citizen of a NATO member country, you were on the correct side. Both in the humanitarian sense (fighting the worst war criminals, even if combatants had a pretty shoddy record) and in the general sense (supporting a democracy or an authoritarian state - guess which is better)...

    58. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, now that we think Obama has the intel that suggests that we should stay in Iraq .... shouldn't he come out and apologize for all of his Bush Bashing regarding Iraq in the first place? And, shouldn't all of the Obama fans apologize to their friends who happened to support the war in the first place? #justsayin

    59. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny. We will be in and out except that we are still in and this makes 13 years now. When are we going to be out of Serbia.

    60. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Those 'temporary' WWII buildings existed all over. When I was at the U of Minnesota in the late 70's there were several Temporary buildings in the courtyard behind the main Engineering building (Lind hall) that were still in use.

    61. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by DesScorp · · Score: 2

      The Bay of Pigs was not aborted, it was a failure. In fact it was an embarrassment for Kennedy.

      The air support from the CIA was aborted, and that's why it was a failure. And withdrawal of air support was Kennedy's decision.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    62. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by DesScorp · · Score: 1

      Ah, now you've stoked the architecture buff in me. That was the Main Navy & Munitions buildings, built as "temporary" headquarters during WWI. But they were built of steel-reinforced concrete, and so lasted a long, long time. Externally, they had an attractive, federal-style facade and fit in with the surrounding building. Inside, however, they were said to have a rather dingy look and feel to them. Regardless, the real reason Nixon wanted them torn down is that he was stationed there as a young officer and hated them. But compared to some of the modernist monstrosities in DC, the old Main Navy buildings looked more like federal buildings than some of the glass and steel and concrete horrors that we've since built in the capitol. Next to the J. Edgar Hoover building or some parts of the State Department headquarters, Main Navy was a veritable Monticello.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    63. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by symbolset · · Score: 2

      He did a lot of other good stuff though. Let's not remember him on the spike of this one mistake.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    64. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by symbolset · · Score: 1

      For every tyrant that's ruled for thirty years there are thousands of businessmen under him who have no trade with tyrrany. They have built their business in the framework they know, and have excelled. They are honest men who do their work and go home at night to their families, to love their kids as we do.

      To achieve social change in this space, we have to kill them. Let's go! Who's for it?

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    65. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Britains democracy dates back to 1707 (so longer living than the US), and the Icelandic Althing was founded in 930 (oldest, but not continuous).

    66. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Ok, but I'm sure anybody making decisions in those banks did rather well.

      Very few executives actually have financial incentives that are aligned with their shareholders. I'm not of the mindset that companies should be allowed to do whatever they want in the interests of their shareholders, but I will say that if that was what actually happened it would be a step up from what we have now...

    67. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      And yet, he seemed to lack your insight when he was campaigning, since he didn't go on the record saying "well, from where I'm sitting I can't see why Bush has us in Iraq, but he is a lot better informed than me and I'm sure there is a really good reason for it."

      That kind of logic works both ways. If it is good enough to knock the last president, then it is good enough to knock the current one. And I'm no fan of Bush...

    68. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0

      No. It's because any congressman that voted to leave our military men and women overseas in a hostile zone without beans, bandaids or bullets would be skewered in the next election.

      Excuse me, but who's talking about "leaving our military men.." You know you're talking smack.

      I'm talking about ceasing the funding for an ongoing presence. Of course we would fund the safe return of our personnel and the decommissioning of military facilities overseas.

      Do you know how many American service personnel are "protecting" Germany right now?

      You may not have noticed, but most American citizens want our troops back from Iraq and Afghanistan, two wars that turned out to be nothing more than money-laundering operations.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    69. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      He is the proper color.

      It's so funny to hear the teabaggers and wingnuts go on about "he just won because he's black".

      It's like how they talk about how blacks are "getting all the gravy" and the "white male" is now downtrodden.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    70. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      The US is about to lose its fiscal credibility.

      Is that why when the earthquake hit Japan, money from all over the world ran to the US Dollar?

      Maybe German bonds were considered more secure because Germany has a more stable economy, considering the high level of workers' rights and universal health care. And did you ever consider that the people running the US House are not doing our economic profile around the world any favors by having pissing contests about raising the debt ceiling?

      and a leadership that has sullenly undermined the US economy at a time of great need

      Is that why things have gotten worse since the November election? Oh, you're talking about Boehner and McConnell. My bad.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    71. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by 517714 · · Score: 2

      Nixon inspired a lot of people to alter reality to fit their preconceptions.

      I believe the real reason was that a portion of the building had been condemned and 3000 of the 7000 occupants had been relocated in 1969. If you have a citation that indicates he was ever stationed there I would like to see it, I thought he was stationed in the South Pacific. The building was an eyesore, neglecting the entrance perhaps, from the time it was built. Your comparison to Mr. Jefferson's home indicate you are not an "architecture buff."

      Nixon entered office in 1969 demolition began in the spring of 1970 and was completed in 1970 That's not two years even with rounding.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    72. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by khallow · · Score: 1

      I didn't realize there was such a vast number of long lived democracies, an Amazon of names that surged from your keyboard. We could also date these particular instances to 1832 (UK) and 1845 (Iceland), say, if I were feeling a bit argumentative.

    73. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by 517714 · · Score: 1

      I think France knows to stay out of the fight, surrendering to Libya would accomplish nothing.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    74. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by paradxum · · Score: 1

      There is plenty of evidence, on the other hand, that the corporations are at best APPROVING everything that is the government is doing (especially in congress) and at worst DICTATING everything that is happening.



      Please provide this "evidence" and I'm not just talking about anecdotal evidence, but true non-biased evidence that shows a macro level of cause->effect. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I just want to see the evidence.
    75. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      So it makes sense that all these people that want government "out of their lives" are ok with government making the most personal decision a woman can possibly make. Okaaaay.

      It's WAY off topic, but it's one hell of a hypocrisy.

    76. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      It seems that there is a huge lobby that benefits in EVERY thing you list there. In some of them the lobby is actual people... imagine that. I think the corporate lobby is A LOT stronger than they were a couple of years ago. The problem is the corporate influence is getting STRONGER. Pretty soon there isn't going to be any other influence.

    77. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      I don't know if this will suit you, but the amount of money that is being spent on corporate lobbying efforts goes up all the time. I'm no expert on this (fire away) and I have no citation, but why would corporations be spending more and more money on something that isn't affecting anything.

    78. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by sorak · · Score: 1

      I'm pro-life on the issue, but I don't really see it as hypocrisy. Some conservatives believe that the government has a responsibility to defend a core set of civil liberties, and do nothing more*. They believe in criminal law as a means to defend those liberties. So, they have a responsibility to determine when those liberties apply and when they do not. In other words, if the government has the authority to say "murder is illegal", then they have a responsibility to define what "murder" is.

      * The politicians they vote for will support every form of corporate welfare imaginable, but many of this subset would vote for Ron Paul or Rand Paul in a second, if they thought he could get elected.

    79. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was enjoying your reality-deficient rant overall, but I just looooved the raving over Obama's support of unions! While the whole of your post had me snickering, this just made me laugh out loud. I'll probably be snickering over it all day. It's just, so, so, absolutely absurd! Such great satire! Such total disconnect from reality! Obama acting as anything other than Wall Street and Megacorp's bitch? NO FUCKING WAY IN HELL!

    80. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by khallow · · Score: 1

      And did you ever consider that the people running the US House are not doing our economic profile around the world any favors by having pissing contests about raising the debt ceiling?

      That's politics. Keep in mind that the Senate and US Presidency are also involved and the Democrat leadership has already shown great willingness to sacrifice the US's future for political gain.

      Is that why things have gotten worse since the November election?

      US economy doesn't turn on a dime, and we still have Obama. I wouldn't expect a serious turnaround till beginning of 2013. It also depends on whether Obamacare gets overturned by the Supreme Court. Best of both worlds is a solid defeat of Obamacare in 2012 followed by a competent president, the following year. I think we'd see four years of huge growth under those circumstances.

    81. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      No, he didn't win because he's black; he won because McCain-Palin was a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad ticket. But is it your contention that his skin color has actually hurt him? I'm pretty sure it won him just as many supporters as it lost him (not a lot, but not zero either). If it did, what would he have done if white? Conquered the entire fucking world in a six-month whirlwind? The guy went from a relative nobody, to the state legislature, to the US Senate, to the Presidency, in twelve years. The only person with similarly short track record in politics to do that was John Kennedy, who had a prominent and powerful father pushing him along.

    82. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Once the full disaster that was Bush was visible, there was no question that the Democrats would run either a woman or a black person.,

      After Bush, they could have run a one-legged Eskimo with a stutter and they would have won.

      Although, it wasn't just the Presidency, but Democrats swept into power in both houses of Congress as well. Remember how big the 2010 Republican win was? The Dem win in 2008 was bigger.

      And I get the feeling we're looking at another pendulum swing in 2012. The people in power like this sort of thing because it keeps people occupied while they go on with their dirty business. Whoever wins in 2012, the big winners are going to be bankers and transnational corporations. The losers? Everyone who isn't worth more than $5million.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    83. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BFD who cares about incandescent light bulbs. The one I worry about is the government who can pass the DMCA or the one who says Saddam Hussein was the cause of 9/11. Those are both clear indications of who runs the government. The first protects companies not people and the second was a huge handout of our money to corporations for no real reason.

      Frankly I find corporations running the government more scary than some bunch of people opposed to incandescent lightbulbs.

      These are the same people who want to privatize social security, came up with HSA's and 401k's.

    84. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by DesScorp · · Score: 1

      He was indeed stationed in the South Pacific for awhile, but did a few months duty at BuAir" in the Main Navy building as well:

      "From December through March 1945, he served at the Bureau of Aeronautics, Navy Department, Washington, D.C."

      Whether it was an "eyesore" is really in the eye of the beholder. The Navy didn't maintain it properly because it was intended to be temporary from the start.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    85. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There had been other bombing runs conducted, Kennedy didn't want out air force doing a follow up run since we wouldn't be able to deny direct involvement if that had happened.

    86. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      A lot of the spending money making America "broke" is on the military, meaning that money is being spent anyway, just that it would otherwise be spent on either peaceful exercises and training, or exiting operations like Afghanistan or Iraq. Therefore it's possible to do something about Qadaffi with zero or nearly zero net additional expenditure. You just fly over and bomb targets in Libya instead of training targets and flights. And the US already has battleships and plenty other troops etc. nearby. While I agree something drastic needs to be done about the consistent budget deficits and alarming national debt, that isn't really an argument here.

    87. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reality: You make as many excuses as Obama. Fuck you pussies.

    88. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      Work is lying to you. ObamaCare does nothing more than allow you to buy insurance from a private company.

      Oh, well thank God for Obama then--because I was utterly powerless to buy insurance from private companies before he came along...

      And "Beck, Palin and other nut jobs" have about as much do do with my knowledge of the government/healthcare relationship as Rachael Maddow does with my knowledge of the duck-billed platypus...

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    89. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      US economy doesn't turn on a dime, and we still have Obama. I wouldn't expect a serious turnaround till beginning of 2013. It also depends on whether Obamacare gets overturned by the Supreme Court. Best of both worlds is a solid defeat of Obamacare in 2012 followed by a competent president, the following year. I think we'd see four years of huge growth under those circumstances.

      You're funny. It's almost as if you believe that.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    90. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by khallow · · Score: 1

      You're funny. It's almost as if you believe that.

      And I see you have nothing to contribute.

    91. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by khallow · · Score: 1

      BFD who cares about incandescent light bulbs.

      Are you trying to claim that abuse of government power to the point of absurdity doesn't matter because nobody cares about light bulbs?

      Frankly I find corporations running the government more scary than some bunch of people opposed to incandescent lightbulbs.

      Would you change your opinion, if say, you found out that General Electric was among those profiting from the incandescent lightbulb ban?

      These are the same people who want to privatize social security, came up with HSA's and 401k's.

      Before that, they came up with pensions and Social Security (the ultimate pyramid scheme). It's less of a scam than it used to be.

      And the bottom line for "corporations running the government". There are many businesses out there and only one government. The businesses don't have pricing power. Nor do they have the power of the state backing them.

    92. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by jandersen · · Score: 1

      "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank. " - Barack Obama, October 27, 2007

      I am confident that I don't have to explain to you that this sort of thing is what every politician says to get elected; you have to keep the message simple, direct and appealing, especially in a political climate like the American. So, did he lie? Of course he did; personally, I don't blame him for it - I knew, as everybody did, that this was not realistic, and I like him for more substantial qualities than which good-sounding promises he made during the election campaign. And I think that one can argue that he is true to the spirit of the promise; GWB would have been all over Libya long ago, pretending to be "The Leader of the Free World" and making an oaf of himself.

      I think America and the rest of the world should count themselves lucky that Obama is such a pragmatic realist.

    93. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he didn't win because he's black; he won because McCain-Palin was a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad ticket.

      This Republican agrees with you. McCain sucked donkey balls.

      Obama beat Hillary because he's black. Also, Hillary's a shrew.

    94. Re:Well....he certainly talks a good game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solid president.

      You're delusional. The very nature of our elections ensures that only the most mediocre will become president. Anyone from either of the two main parties in the US will be terrible. And the people that are stupid enough to identify with one side or the other will insist it's all the other parties' fault.

  3. Okay... by MrEricSir · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Then where's the openness when it comes to Bradley Manning?

    --
    There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    1. Re:Okay... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2

      Thats the DoD, the President isn't going to push on them over a Private.

      Manning is done, he was done the second he sent files to a third party.

    2. Re:Okay... by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't do this over a private.
      You do it over rule of law, rules of evidence, and principles that were established as the fundamental basis of legitimate government - in tradition and precedent that goes back to at least the thirteenth century.

      Again, you forgot to use the word "allegedly", to modify the second verb in your final sentence.

      If this criticism seems irrelevant or incomprehensible to you? Then it is no wonder you have a nation falle to such a sorry state.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    3. Re:Okay... by Zackbass · · Score: 1

      You might not have noticed, but we've got this thing called the US Constitution. It says that the President is the Commander In Chief of the US Armed Forces. He answers to nobody on Manning's treatment. Say what you will about Manning's choice to cede his rights upon joining the armed forces, it's still terribly unbecoming for a nation that professes due process to allow this situation to happen. If it's all sensationalist lies about his treatment then it wouldn't do any harm to show that they're false either.

      You're suggesting that the President doesn't have adequate control over the military. If that's the case, I'd say he's doing a pretty bad job. If he can't stand up for a Private how can he wrangle bigger issues?

      --
      You gotta find first gear in your giant robot car
    4. Re:Okay... by Kosi · · Score: 1

      It shouldn't matter what rank Manning has or had, and Obama is the fucking president, the DoD has to do what he says, period.

    5. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You might not have noticed, but we've got this thing called the US Constitution"

      Oh, you mean that old, just a piece of paper that congress and the president(s) have been undermining for the last ten years. Based on the laws written, we have very few rights left.

      Funny, my captcha was detains.

    6. Re:Okay... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      It would be a violation of Private Manning's rights for the military to reveal enough about the way it is treating him to disprove the allegations. This sort of thing happens frequently. Someone makes an allegation of mistreatment against an organization that is forbidden by statute from commenting on the situation, then people say, "Well, if the allegations are baseless, why don't they tell us what is really going on?". The answer to that question is that the law specifically forbids them from doing so.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    7. Re:Okay... by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well -- I haven't seen a coherent argument that he should not be prosecuted, given what he's supposed to have done. I'm open to persuasion, but it seems to me that as long as he's given a fair chance to defend himself (including being detained under reasonable conditions), he *should* face trial.

      Right off the bat I'll grant you the "Collateral Murder" video. I don't think Wikileak's spin on those tapes is fair or accurate, but I'll grant that atrocities *do* happen and that a reasonable person looking at the video might conclude that's what it showed. It's at least defensible to go public with that tape, given the assumption that the Army has no safe and effective mechanism for dealing with these matters.

      The diplomatic cables and the Afghan war documents are a different matter. I don't think these turned out to be as damaging as Manning's more hysterical detractors claim, but I still think Manning did something wrong. He took a huge body of data, more than he could possibly have understood in detail himself, then he sent him to somebody he didn't actually know so that person could go on a fishing expedition. That was grossly irresponsible.

      If he had a piece of information in his hands that he was familiar with and he thought it was something that the public ought to know, then I'd call him a whistle-blower and I'd support him. But teams of expert reporters took months to comb through the mountains of random stuff he leaked, just to figure what was there. Manning could not possibly have known what he setting in motion, and he must have known that. Until I learn otherwise, I'd call him a chaos-monger, not a whistle-blower.

      The question isn't whether good things happened as the result of what Manning did, although I do think some good things have happened. And to my knowledge there's no documented evidence of any serious, irreparable harm resulting. But Manning's actions were unconscionably reckless, and a violation of a professional trust. I believe the Manning case shows we probably can afford to be a lot more open with information than we are, and that's a positive outcome. But a serious potential for harm to innocent third parties was there and Manning took no steps to prevent that. Even where some parties deserve exposure for being, as Assange calls them, "collaborators", the same principle of justice applies to them as to Manning. They deserve a fair chance to defend themselves before they are punished.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    8. Re:Okay... by ArcherB · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Manning is a fucking traitor, nothing less. What else do you call someone who steals secret documents and gives to someone who is not supposed to have them?

      And don't give me that bullshit about how he wanted to release data that shouldn't have been secret. Thousands of documents were released and I can promise you that Manning did not read them all.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    9. Re:Okay... by hedwards · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So, in other words you think we were wrong at Nuremberg when we prosecuted all those Nazis for following orders? You can't have it both ways, there were war crimes committed by American personnel and it went to the top, that's just with things we knew about previously, now we have a lot more evidence with which to open war crimes proceedings at the Hague for the other stuff that we didn't know about.

    10. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But he couldn't go through it all - it would have been impossible. And he knew from skimming that there were many unethical activities uncovered throughout the entire dataset. So, he had to give it to someone if he was going to succeed at uncovering all of the unethical activity. He chose an organization that he believed could and would make a good-faith attempt at removing any information that could endanger specific individuals. This would have been a reasonable assessment even if it turned out to have been incorrect, yet in fact it was correct. Wikileaks even ended up utilizing traditional journalists to aid in the redaction process, and offered to involve the Pentagon as well. What else, exactly, was Manning supposed to do? Other than shut up and follow the rules, of course. In fact anyone who wouldn't make an effort to release evidence of unethical behavior, after being rebuffed by their superiors, is not worthy of wearing the uniform. Those immoral individuals are the ones who belong in Quantico. And yes, I have worn a uniform, and held a security clearance. I'm glad I wasn't placed in the same position Manning was.

    11. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Manning is a Hero. You are not.

    12. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      some information is classified legitimately; as with military hardware, secrecy sometimes really is in the national interest. Further, military, political, and intelligence communities tend to value secrecy for its own sake. It's a way of silencing critics and evading responsibility - for incompetence or worse. It generates an elite, a band of brothers in whom the national confidence can be reliably vested, unlike the great mass of citizenry on whose behalf the information is presumably made secret in the first place. With a few exceptions, secrecy is deeply incompatible with democracy...
      Sagan

    13. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Manning is a traitor. Until he is hanged, there is no justice.

    14. Re:Okay... by Mitreya · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Manning is a fucking traitor, nothing less. What else do you call someone who steals secret documents and gives to someone who is not supposed to have them?

      Manning is an alleged fucking traitor. Just because some dude pointed a finger at him, does not make him a convicted traitor. Once he is convicted (by the military court, I assume?), you may call him a traitor.

      If you read the parent post (re-read it), you would notice that he is not arguing that Manning is a good guy. He is saying that no matter what he is (even when he is most likely convicted), our constitution does not allow for cruel and unusual punishment that is being inflicted on Manning (read the details in the news). Once he is convicted he should go to a regular jail, traitor or not. Unless he is given a death penalty, in which case he might be executed.
      But what is happening now to him is presumably unconstitutional as there is no option that allows his current treatment. Not even if Manning is convicted of every crime he is accused of and a few more will regular abuse be an acceptable punishment.

    15. Re:Okay... by aekafan · · Score: 1

      Well if he is a traitor, where can I sign up to be one? We could use a lot more traitors like him, and less brainlessly obedient patriots

    16. Re:Okay... by aekafan · · Score: 1

      LOL then we need more traitors, and less idiots wrapped in flags, as you are

    17. Re:Okay... by nrook · · Score: 2

      Bradley Manning did not give those documents to someone who is not supposed to have them.

      He gave them to us. Remember us? We the people? You may not have heard about us very much recently, given all of the things going on that are too important to hear about. But we're still here, and theoretically, all those important people in the government work for us.

      Perhaps Manning was excessively honest with his superiors (who are, if you'll recall, us.) But excessive honesty to one's superiors is generally not considered an offense worthy of torture in the civilized world. It is often considered heroism.

    18. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are the specific proven things that are happening to him - not allegedly through third-hand sources - that fit the legal definition of 'cruel and unusual'? You were pretty good about use of the word 'allegedly' in the first paragraph, but you tailed off a bit after that.

    19. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he had a piece of information in his hands that he was familiar with and he thought it was something that the public ought to know, then I'd call him a whistle-blower and I'd support him. But teams of expert reporters took months to comb through the mountains of random stuff he leaked, just to figure what was there. Manning could not possibly have known what he setting in motion, and he must have known that. Until I learn otherwise, I'd call him a chaos-monger, not a whistle-blower.

      Exactly. One must also consider how this went down and motive. This is not information that he was accessing as a part of his day-to-day job - one can be certain that reading thousands of pages of diplomatic cables wasn't part of that private's job description. The 'whistle blower' argument thus fails because he sought this information out, it's not something he happened into. That points to motive - he presumably downloaded what he did just to send it to Wikileaks. Stepping back a level, getting access to those (under-compartmentalized) networks is likely the reason he joined, if we're being realistic.

      In the end, the kid's a moron. He may face death for what he did, and he didn't accomplish anything worth forfeiting his own life. I think 'chaos-monger' is probably the most apt term I've heard yet. We're lucky he didn't have access to anything actually damaging. In that respect, I'm glad this can serve as a wake-up call that some materials deserve more security than providing them to any subversive who chooses to enlist.

    20. Re:Okay... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, Manning gave them to a Foreign National.

      And all your clever (?) rhetoric won't obscure the fact that he was part of a military organization that was under an oath to behave in a certain fashion. And don't get all Godwinny about it. If you do, you're full of shit and YHL.

    21. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But what is happening now to him is presumably unconstitutional as there is no option that allows his current treatment.

      Oh bull shit. He's in the military, in a brig. It's not some secret underground torture chamber, it's right here. Lots of people have been there, and are there for more or less serious crimes, violent crimes, etc. This isn't some Few Good Men bullshit, this is real life prison, in the military, and it's not meant to be fun. Suicide watch isn't a joke either, there are good odds of someone being on it at any one of the barracks on the same base, or any base for that matter, it's not just some trick they pulled out of a hat to harass him.

      This is another case of civilians blowing something they don't understand out of proportion, just like "Collateral Damage".
      Yah it sucks and it's not ideal, but in an ideal world, things would not have come down to this. This is the real world.

      Write him a letter and try to boost his self esteem if you really give a damn about him.

    22. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for being the only honest fucker on slashdot.

    23. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Manning is a fucking traitor, nothing less.

      Yes, but he betrayed a country whose ways are so fucked up that they should be exposed, so good on him.

    24. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Manning is a fucking traitor, nothing less. What else do you call someone who steals secret documents and gives to someone who is not supposed to have them?

      Dunno about you, but I call them "innocent until proven guilty".

    25. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, it is treasonous to expose war criminals like the helicopter crews in Collateral Damage?

      Sorry, war criminals are war crimals whether they are ours (Bush, Cheney, Obama) or theirs.

    26. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a question of Constitutional rights. It's a question of UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). Constitutional rights don't always apply (how else whould anybody make it through boot camp with a right to "liberty and the pursuit of happines).

      For example, a Marine getting a sunburn can be Article 32'ed for destruction of government property (himself), with an appropriate hump in the chain of command.

      Plus, if proven, private manning would be in breach of both his enlistment contract and his clearance paperwork, both of which clearly spell out (by my memory) the his legal standing and the burden of proof.

    27. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I don't think Wikileak's spin on those tapes is fair or accurate"

      Wow, I suspect the people that were shredded by the helicopter cannon shells wouldn't think that was fair for them, assuming they were alive. That's the big difference. Cowardly helicopter pilots gleefully shredding normal people like you and me. Funny, I seem to remember one of the allegations against Saddam Hussein was that he put his people into a shredder. Turns out he didn't - it the US that does that and does it joyfully - yeehaaa.

    28. Re:Okay... by Micklat · · Score: 1

      Generally, I'd call someone who leaked documents in order to expose a wrong done a "whistle-blower". A whistle-blower may be correct or he may be misguided, but even a misguided whistle-blower is not necessarily a traitor. A "traitor" I'd call someone who acted to sabotage the military effort of his nation due to allegiance to another nation, or for money, or for some other sort of reward. Bradley wasn't promised any sort of reward, not a tangible one anyway, and there's no evidence to suggest that he transferred his allegiance to another nation - unless you count mankind as "another nation". So he's a whistle-blower, not a traitor.

    29. Re:Okay... by 517714 · · Score: 1

      The United States does not recognize the authority of the International Court of Justice unless it rules in our favor, so what would be the point?

      Manning appears to be a traitor, history may vindicate him, but he is still answerable to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Both Germans in WW II and Americans today were/are not obligated by their respective codes to obey unlawful orders. Many Germans refused to obey unlawful orders without consequences, so their "following orders" defense was not compelling.

      Manning had no authority to look at the communications he allegedly subsequently divulged. Since he had no reason to believe that they contained information about illegal activities, he was simply snooping in conflict with his lawful orders and he did not have a moral purpose for doing so. His moral purpose may have developed after the fact, but do not confuse that with his initial actions. If he divulged them without examining them, then he can't claim a moral purpose since he would not have known what was in them, and violating his orders and his oath. There is no getting around the fact that he violated legal orders.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    30. Re:Okay... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      And the United States Army is prosecuting Private Manning within the law as put forth in the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

    31. Re:Okay... by 517714 · · Score: 1

      No they do not. The oath is absolute to the Constitution, but it is conditional to the president and superior officers under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, those semicolons make it so. Under the Uniform Code of Military Justice following unlawful orders is punishable.

      Military personnel take the following oaths:

      Upon Enlistment: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

      Upon commission, "I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter."

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    32. Re:Okay... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      What "situation" is happening with Manning exactly?

      He is held in military pre-trial confinement, as you may or may not know, military life can be a little harsh and shockingly military jails aren't Club Fed.

      Manning should have known that if he did something that embarrassed the US Army and State Department, when caught they might push every legal limit during his confinement.

    33. Re:Okay... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Those documents were classified just sitting on servers, not killing Jews, Gypsies, Communists and Homosexuals.

      If Manning had "followed orders" and not leaked them, it wouldn't have led to a train of Jews going to the ovens, it would have lead to the documents just sitting on servers a little while longer.

      Godwining an argument just makes the crimes of the Nazis seem more mundane than it was.

    34. Re:Okay... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      You don't know what I've done in my life, I might very well be a hero.

      Or I might just be a schmuck schlepping through life, like Manning is.

    35. Re:Okay... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      When the military court finds him guilty, then we can all call him a traitor.

    36. Re:Okay... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Find an Army recruiter, sign a contract, go through basic and MOS school, pass the security checks, get posted somewhere that gives you access and be a traitor.

      http://www.goarmy.com/

    37. Re:Okay... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      If Manning had given them straight to the NY Times, Washington Post, LA Times or even the Podunk Penny Saver, he'd have alot more rights and protections.

      But he didn't, he is alleged to have offered them to that dude from Wired and to Wikileaks, Wikileaks took him up on it and now he is in jail awaiting trial.

      He didn't give them to the people he is alleged to have given them to a foreign national.

    38. Re:Okay... by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Pull the other one. It's got bells.

      They are torturing him.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    39. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welll... He's commander in chief mostly in absenteeism. Yes he does have to answer! The constitution does not give him limited power, but he appears to think it does. When Congress rules in a direction he finds unfavorable he just ignores them and rules by decree. You don't have to read far to see he has ignored The Constitution on many occasions. He has surrounded himself with some very dangerous people. Mostly union thugs and crooks out of the Chicago machine who have openly advocated violence. Aires had to be let go as he was too vocal even for that radical crowd.

      As for government and business taking over? Look at what has been put into law over the last two years. Look at him advocating taking over IRAs and other retirement accounts (Nationalizing them). That will hit the middle/working class far harder than any other. Who will get what you have saved for your children? The government! We have lost more freedoms and gained more national debt under him than all other presidents combined. Our foreign policy,( poor as it was) has become a joke world wide.

      He has done a 180 on most of his campaign promises. Faith in the man? Read up on his background. He sees the US as "neo-colonialist" and apparently wants to see the US as subservient to the rest of the world. I think he should be impeached.

    40. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also note that Obama has said he can keep people in prison even if they have been found innocent.

    41. Re:Okay... by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      Manning's treatment by the Military, in my opinion, justifies the document dump.

      If the administration were NOT following the Bush regime's policies of spying on the American public (still) and yet, keeping torture camps open, and not disclosing important information that Americans in a Democracy need (such as the TRUTH, auditing the Federal Reserve, and WTF are we still doing in Afghanistan).

      Sure, there is a lot of State Department messages that are NOT always a real opinion; some are CYA and some are intentional "misinformation" -- and it can be embarrassing. WikiLeaks however, spent months vetting the information with other news organizations. But what is worse for American's -- a revelation of EVERYTHING, or wars based on a need by the military to take our money, and oil companies to get cheap resources, and murder, lies and ignoring treaties?

      The only reason America isn't being censured by the UN, is that there are a LOT of other corrupt nations playing the same game for their corporations, and we have a veto seat on the UN.

      >> Our government doesn't DESERVE the benefit of the doubt. They've used un-charged people, as guinea pigs for pharmaceutical companies. They've transferred prisoners to other nations for brutal torture. Likely, some factions have spied on journalists and political opponents (like Cheney), to extort their support for things like the invasion of Iraq and to sign the Patriot Act (they are crooks, but not all crooks are evil).

      >> Why do we judge Bradly Manning in a vacuum -- as IF we were in a country that was run by the "good guys." What defines "good guy" to you? I think Bradley Manning acted as a Patriot -- because he "allegedly" released the documents to let us have the truth for once.

      How can we have a Democracy, when all our candidates have their indiscretions covered up by the Media -- as long as they are selling out to a sponsor of that media? Maybe you have only heard about Charley Sheen's indiscretions as if that were the most important problem in this country...

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    42. Re:Okay... by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      hedwards --
      The problem with the Nazis is that they had funny accents. That's how we know they were the bad guys!

      As long as you sound like a tough, Western hombre, and torture a prisoner who you classify as a "non person" then it's perfectly acceptable.

      The Jews that were tortured, or used for experiments, they weren't "enemy non-combatants."

      >> I hope that has cleared everything up for you. /sarcasm

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    43. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "And don't get all Godwinny about it. If you do, you're full of shit and YHL"

      What a pathetic attempt to head off the argument that you KNOW blows yours out of the water. It will be rank hypocrisy if the US does not take into account what happened after WW2 - the Nuremberg defense was NOT considered legal justification for the wrong actions of an individual by the US government when it suited them, so the same should stand true today. Of course we all know how this will play out - Manning will be railroaded and locked away for the rest of his life, in part because of lick-spittle toadies like you who don't believe in morality or ethics trumping orders.

    44. Re:Okay... by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      The Uniform Code of Military Justice relates to the Geneva Conventions.

      There are roughly 3 levels of treaties, and the Geneva Conventions -- which we signed, are at the top level; they supersede ALL laws we may have made including the Constitution.

      ANYONE not covered by Section III of the Geneva Conventions, is covered by Section IV -- there is NO "in-between" or "exempt" designation -- otherwise the Geneva Conventions would be meaningless because every tin-pot dictator would claim that whomever they disappeared and tortured is an exception. Of course they do claim exceptions -- just as we have; and they are all wrong.

      You cannot strip a person naked and leave them cooped up 24 hours a day. Letting them "move" into another 5 by 5 cell is merely a gimmick. Amnesty International needs access to Manning -- or he CANNOT BE TRIED.

      >> It doesn't matter what you THINK Manning did or not. You cannot say HE DIDN"T THINK IT WAS MORAL until afterward -- that's heresy. Unless you see some other motivation -- like a financial exchange, or a desire to "ruin the United States" -- there is no proof of intent.

      >> In my mind, the ONLY reason someone would risk everything to reveal such documents to WikiLeaks, is because they THOUGHT it would help our country if people knew what was going on.

      >> It certainly doesn't DISCREDIT the USA -- because nobody -- including most of our citizens, believes CRAP that comes out of our Corp-Gov-Military oligarchy anymore. The only people who think we still have fair elections are conservatives when they win them -- when they lose, they imagine millions of people risking federal laws and voting as dead people. Even after millions have been spent, only about a dozen people have been caught voting twice.

      I can EASILY say that a release of secret documents in this country is a Patriotic thing to do -- because our system is broken. Our military is a never-ending drain of money and war that pays Mercenaries ten times what soldiers make to massacre people we have no business fighting. To bring home the REAL THREAT -- notice that after the Japanese melt down, many countries including Germany and China, have suspended operations of all "GE designed Mark I reactors" which are the same as what failed. In the USA -- we have 35 -- and they are STILL in operation. And they will remain in operation -- because some company would lose money otherwise.

      BP is still operating -- because corporations make the rules now.

      Our country CANNOT defend itself from greed and stupidity. We cannot stop using Oil, or Uranium, or filling our food with poison because someone is making a buck. We cannot get out of Afghanistan and Iraq because someone is making a buck.

      Is China the MILITARY threat we are defending Against? GE has weapons plants in China. Private companies now produce and protect our nuclear weapons. Our CIA still funds a "branch" of Al Qaeda, because they are in Iran causing trouble for that government. Who the HELL is the Enemy that Bradley Manning is allegedly making us vulnerable too?

      What is the threat from the TRUTH? Could anyone believe our Military ANY LESS THAN IT DOES NOW?

      Nothing has changed -- other than a few Middle East uprising because maybe they've learned their governments play both sides against the middle -- as ALL governments try to do. We've always been at war with Iran, for instance, and it's the only threat that keeps their young people from throwing out their tired, old, theocrats.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    45. Re:Okay... by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      He was part of a Military organization that has proven to NOT be obeying certain treaties.

      If you convict Manning -- then please, let us all know, WHY THE FUCK we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq?

      NONE of the alleged hijackers came from those two countries. There was more "training" going on in South Florida and Germany than Afghanistan -- even if you could prove Bin Laden was planning something there with some video of people training on a jungle gym which makes the B-Roll every time the newscasts cover "Al Qaeda." Before we invaded, I'm sure not one person in a thousand in Afghanistan or Iraq even heard the term; "Al Qaeda."

      The same Military Organization that is bleeding our country dry. The same one that is torturing and indefinitely detaining people and shipping them off to be tortured to death.

      I do not recognize the PRIVILEGE of my government or military to hold things secret ANY MORE -- because I do not know that they are not the greatest threat to me, my neighbors, or my children.

      WHO is going to foreclose on American houses? Who aided an abetted Wall Street in bankrupting the world economy and holding the economic system ransom until we bailed them out? Why is Hank Paulson, and a few hundred other thugs, who should be prime suspects, littered all over the Bush and Obama administrations -- why are the crooks running the prison? Why are transnational corporations who make money outsourcing, controlling our US Chamber of Commerce and why are foreign or ANY company allowed to "donate" to our elections and distort our Democracy?

      Why can we not have an energy policy -- or shut down a company like BP for destroying the Gulf -- or even INVESTIGATE the ocean floor or the chemicals they dumped for the benefit of the public good? Did you know that Wachovia was caught laundering money for Mexican drug cartels -- perhaps about $450 Billion? The press didn't cover that too much and the only slap on the wrist they got to change names and get bought out by Wells Fargo Bank.

      >> No, we've got more journalists and whistleblowers in prison than we do "terrorists." You are more likely to die from the use of "Clean Coal" than you are some terrorist attack.

      WTF is our million-man secret service organizations, 2 million in people in prison, $800 Billion military, and trillion-dollar pentagon, designed to PROTECT us against? They sure can bust up greedy teacher's unions, arrest someone growing pot in their basement, and catch some damn flasher, but if you laundered $450 Billion for the drug cartels -- not so much.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    46. Re:Okay... by Phoenix666 · · Score: 1

      Manning is a hero. His act laid bare what Americans of all stripes have increasingly come to believe in the past 10 years, namely that people in government and big business are so corrupt and so intertwined with one another, that those forces in our country are so wrapped up with those forces in other countries, that it has become virtually impossible for the United States of America, the system, to work for Americans and uphold the values Americans purport to hold dear. Our system is a deep and elaborate fraud, and Manning gave us unmistakable evidence of that.

      His act has already been credited by some of tipping Tunisia and Egypt over the edge to overthrow their dictators. Time will tell, but he may have set the stage for a serious re-set here, too.

      --
      Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
    47. Re:Okay... by The+Grand+Falloon · · Score: 1
      We don't teach our soldiers to yell, "Have at thee, O noble and worthy foe!" as they shoot someone, nor should we. We desensitize the shit out of them so the can pull the trigger when a trigger needs pullin'. It sucks, but it gets the job done. I watched that video ready to see some blatantly obvious attacks on civilians. I saw a bunch of guys in a targeting camera hurrying towards a combat zone, and one guy leaning around a wall with what looked a hell of a lot like a bazooka. Then I heard a guy in the radio say, "he's got an RPG!" and then start asking for permission to open fire. Then he waits for permission, and all the while, that thing still looks like a weapon. An innocent dude and his friends get blown away. It sucks, but it's war. A van shows up and starts loading up the wounded, the van gets blown away, and it turns out there were kids in it. All in all, it's a really shitty situation, but the people behind the guns were following the rules of engagement as I understand them. The van is a little less clear-cut, but apparently a vehicle loading up wounded enemy combatants is considered an enemy unless it's made clear its affiliations. You can be damn sure if I'm living in a war zone I'm going to educate myself on the basics of "How not to be perceived as an enemy."

      Ugh, the whole time I was typing that, I wanted to use the term "libtard." I think because I was defending the military, which isn't something I'm usually quick to do.

    48. Re:Okay... by Kosi · · Score: 1

      I doubt that an order to treat Manning with some respect instead of Guantanamo-like would be unlawful.

    49. Re:Okay... by 517714 · · Score: 1

      The Geneva Conventions do not cover how a country deals with traitors, it deals with prisoners of war, which Manning is not. Section IV is titled, "Financial Resources of Prisoners of War", I am not sure how you believe that applies. Americans have been tried and convicted, recently, for mistreating POWs, and that is as it should be. Amnesty International has no standing in the issue. How Manning is treated is a separate issue from what he has done, and those responsible should be held accountable. The prisoners held at Guantanamo are a separate issue, one to which the Geneva Convention does apply, and for which those responsible should be held accountable, all the way to the top in two administrations.

      Manning's motivation is not relevant in prosecuting him, his actions establish guilt or innocence. His motivations would be used to determine a more appropriate sentence, and may establish that he is a patriot. You seem to forget that the greatest patriots are traitors, but many traitors are not patriots.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    50. Re:Okay... by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      If you convict Manning -- then please, let us all know, WHY THE FUCK we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq?

      I can do that now.

      We invaded Afghanistan because they were harboring Osama Bin Laden, the guy that was/is in charge of the group that pulled off 9-11.

      We invaded Iraq for several reasons. They violated 19 UN resolutions, each with use of military force as a potential result of violation. They tried to kill US service men and women enforcing those UN resolutions. They tried to kill a former US president. They committed several crimes against humanity.... And there are many more but there is no point in bringing them up because you've heard them all before and rejected them because they contradict what you already believed and you are incapable of changing your mind. See, if you change your opinion, you feel that it is an admission that you were wrong, and since you are obviously never wrong, the facts must be wrong. Everyone else, however, must keep an open mind and anyone who does not come around to your way of thinking is closed minded, and therefor a bigot.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    51. Re:Okay... by 517714 · · Score: 1

      I completely agree,but I doubt that an order to treat Manning with some respect has been issued. You seem to think I was suggesting that Obama has acted properly in this issue. I think the problem starts at the top, and that military personnel should be refusing to carry out any unlawful orders that violate Manning's rights. State Department spokesman, P.J. Crowley who called the conditions of Manning's confinement, "ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid," resigned over this affair. Why do you think he would do that? Was it because Obama was telling the public that he had been assured the conditions were necessary, and was doing nothing about it? Obama is part of the problem here.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    52. Re:Okay... by MrEricSir · · Score: 1

      Sure he's a traitor. So what?

      Given the situation, that makes him a hero.

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    53. Re:Okay... by Kosi · · Score: 1

      I agree. The DoD would not act towards Manning as they do if Obama had seriously told them not to do so. Hell, IIRC Obama even could have given Manning pardon for everything he might have done, if he wanted to. Except for if he'd be proven to have caused serious direct threats to the life of one ore more persons, he should be granted pardon alone for leaking that video of the heli crew who thought shooting innocents is a funny video game.

    54. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last time I checked, we let even known enemies carry off their wounded. For the principled reason that we are fighting for a purpose, not simply to increase suffering, and for the practical reason that wounded enemies require more of the enemy's resources that dead ones.

  4. All those nice fancy "strengths" by countertrolling · · Score: 1

    Still waiting for them to be implemented... Hmmm

    Meanwhile the beat goes on..

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    1. Re:All those nice fancy "strengths" by Seumas · · Score: 1

      The only thing I've seen the government do is blow tens of millions of dollars on Drupal websites that should have cost a few thousand dollars, to present half-broken interfaces that supposedly expose all sorts of government data, spearheaded by that Vivek Kundra moron who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, based on all the idiotic statements he's made that sound like a marketing guy trying to talk-up a technology he's only briefly read about in a pamphlet.

  5. Is he open? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm not sure. Let me ask him whether or not the NSA ran a warrantless-wiretapping operation at AT&T, and whether or not the CIA ferried people to other countries for torture. Someone dedicated to openness would undoubtedly answer that question clearly and unambiguously, right?

    1. Re:Is he open? by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      "Well you see, I believe that government should be open and visible to all, so that citizens know what their representatives are working on"
      (hint: I completely dodged your question, now you know what to look for next time you hear a politician talking)

    2. Re:Is he open? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      We already know the answer.

      What matters, is stopping those things, and never allowing them to happen again.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    3. Re:Is he open? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Ok, so ask him the question anyway, and then ask him the follow-up "and is it still going on today?"

      If he can't answer the first question straight, when he wasn't even responsible for those things, can we really be sure he's answering the second question straight?

    4. Re:Is he open? by 517714 · · Score: 1

      You can't really criticize the President on that one since the press won't ask the question since the President won't let them ask unscripted questions. Oops.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
  6. Summary by whoever57 · · Score: 3

    Big on words, implementation "lagging"

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    1. Re:Summary by atriusofbricia · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Big on words, implementation "lagging"

      And that would be Obama in a nut shell. Makes excellent speeches (as long as he doesn't have to talk off the cuff), and does things that only some people want, totally fails on the ones everyone would like.

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    2. Re:Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, why don't more politicians do those things that everyone would like. It's so obvious!

    3. Re:Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't help but wonder if the realities of the world are such that many of the things we think are straightforward and should be public, really shouldn't.

      That's almost scarier than not knowing. The guy was supposedly dead-set on openness, closing gitmo, fixing a bunch of underhanded dealings by fbi/cia/etc, pulling the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and so on. He got into office and promptly backtracked on all of it. What is so scary that you can change someones mind just like that?

  7. barley half meeting FOIA goals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/barely-half-of-agencies-meeting-obamas-foia-request-goals-study-says/2011/03/11/ABImgsT_story.html

    Though 49(of 90) agencies and departments complied with the study’s authors, 17 others — including the Transportation Department and U.S. Postal Service — provided no documents and two withheld information. Another 17 agencies — including the departments of Commerce, Energy, Justice and State — provided no final response, and four smaller agencies never acknowledged receipt of the FOIA request. The figures have improved significantly from last year, when just 13 of 90 agencies complied.

    “At this rate, it’ll be the end of his term before the agencies do what Obama asked them to do on the first day,” said Thomas S. Blanton, director of the National Security Archive.

    1. Re:barley half meeting FOIA goals by chasisaac · · Score: 1

      FOIA is the real issue here. Who really cares that there is more Web 2.0 (in the big scheme of things). After all they are putting up and highlighting stuff that makes Obama look good.

      Real transparency comes from allowing people to see records. In this case, the administration has failed without any mitigation.

      So by FOIA this is one of the most closed presidents.

      --
      -- A computer without Windoze is like a choclate cake without mustard
    2. Re:barley half meeting FOIA goals by Igarden2 · · Score: 1

      The usual technique for discouraging whistle blowing has not been abandoned. Some FOIA requests are being blocked and we just rarely hear about it. http://js10131979.new.newsvine.com/_news/2011/03/17/6288196-top-lawmaker-takes-issue-with-dhs-whistle-blower-demotion

      --
      Normally I ascribe all life to intelligent design, but in your case I'll make an exception.
  8. Re:Okay... (no, it's not!) by Kosi · · Score: 1

    There is no proof that he really did that until now! And, doesn't your constitution include something like "everyone is to be considered innocent until proven guilty"?

    I strongly suggest him for the next Nobel prize for freedom, if he really did what he's accused of.

  9. If Obama was smart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He would give WikiLeaks access to all government computers. Then they wouldn't be able to point fingers and scream about government not being open and cover-ups etc... As a plus, as soon as they reveal any dangerous information (ie. anything that truly endangers people), they would lose all popular support, and could be considered a clear and present danger, allowing the authorities to pursue them without restraint.

  10. Bang-up job... by benjamindees · · Score: 5, Funny

    Gitmo is still open so that counts right?

    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  11. How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by the-matt-mobile · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? - About like he's doing on all his other promises - bringing the troops home, closing Gitmo, etc. etc. Why we ever elected a hope-peddling amateur and expected any different I'll never know. Especially during such a precarious time in our nation's history. Maybe I'm wrong and Wall Street, Egypt, Japan and Lybia really do need their own 'community organizers' to solve their woes.

    1. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because the only alternative was Grandpa Nutcase and his sidekick Princess Know Nothing.

      Had McCain run like he did in 2000 he would have won. Instead he sold out to the far right nutbags in his party and lost for it.

    2. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by the-matt-mobile · · Score: 1

      Um... that's what primaries are for. Both sides screwed up big time on that one.

    3. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by airfoobar · · Score: 1

      Oh, really?? I thought there were a bunch of different options, except the brainwashed unwashed seem to be blind to them. Keep voting for the two main parties and the two main parties is what you get.

    4. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I did vote for a third party. I did that knowing they could never win. So don't blame me for this mess.

    5. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by XLR8DST8 · · Score: 1

      wish i had mod points for this!!! mccain WAS a moderate. maybe he still is. in 2000 it was clear. in the last election it was almost like he was paid to throw the election by fucking it up royally. he's a moderate but came off like bob dole! republicans are so stupid in this manner. they had him as bob dole, and palin, to 'fire up their base'. which is asinine. their base wasn't going to vote for obama. as far as getting them out to vote? obama was taking care of that. it's like when they pander to the religious nutjobs. they throw away more votes than they pick up. alienating more voters than they attract.

    6. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by XLR8DST8 · · Score: 1

      would mod you if i could. ron paul could have had a chance but the republicans didn't want him. during the primaries, the democrat races were open, but one had to be registered as a republican to vote for the republican primaries, which is what ruined ron paul's chances. political parties are corrupt in this manner down to defining separate rules for their own primaries. they should be abolished.

    7. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by airfoobar · · Score: 1

      Acknowledged. I wish more people did that.

    8. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by witherstaff · · Score: 1

      It matters by the state. I'm in Michigan and you don't have to register in a party to vote in the primary. What really helped ruin the old guard Republicans not liking libertarians. In Nevada to stop Paul from winning some delegates at the state convention they turned off the lights and walked out the door. Now that's professional.

    9. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Ron Paul did not have a chance. He spent too much of his life where the only people that would listen to him were completely off their rocker. As a result of that, he either started to subscribe to some crazy ideas or he said he subscribed to some crazy ideas because that was what his audience wanted to hear. I suspect it was the former. When the only people around who will listen to your sensible ideas, also believe some crazy stuff, over time, you start to think that some of the crazy stuff they believe isn't so crazy.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    10. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a horribly scarcity of sane candidates beyond the big two (entirely independent of whether you think the big two are sane either). There are sometimes good independent candidates at the state level, but those aren't gathering other like-minded independents to form parties yet.

    11. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by icebraining · · Score: 1

      The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance.

      Better than having corporations running the show, would be to have Churches!

    12. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by micheas · · Score: 1

      My thoughts were that Obama would be worse than McCain, and Palin would be a whole lot worse than Biden.

      As someone with lefty tendencies I would have voted for McCain/Todd-Whitman over Obama/Biden but Palin more or less made the GOP ticket a non-starter for me.

    13. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by hedwards · · Score: 0

      Ron Paul is a known nutjob and didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected. McCain could have won had he not made that disastrous choice to turn to the right after he got his party's nomination after the primary and had some plan about how to solve the economic downturn.

    14. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by Seumas · · Score: 2

      Libertarians are often portrayed as nutjobs, because they don't have enough bias toward religion, corporations, or other entities. Suggesting that people be free to do what they please so long as it doesn't directly negatively impact another unwilling person is just nutty as hell. We need people who talk to jesus in the Oval office before making important decisions and spend their time deciding what church to attend in DC or which lobbyist to accept contributions from.

      Yeah, Ron Paul comes across as a little nutty sometimes, but they would portray ANY libertarian that way. They just aren't biased enough in favor of controlling people's lives like the left and right are.

    15. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      I wish more people cut the "if ya don't vote ya can't complain!" bullshit. (Not saying that you're doing that). It's a meaningless and thoughtless bumper-sticker response every few years that people spew. They're better than everyone else, because they voted. They may be ignorant. They may have voted because their guy is going to cram god down everyone's throat or give them more social security rather than voting on principals that strengthen the foundation of our society (freedom, etc). They may not have even thought about who they were going to vote for until that very morning. And they probably gathered a lot of other people to get them out to vote. But god damn it, they voted and that makes them fucking saints or something. Because it doesn't matter if you're smart or stupid or doing damage or the only thing you're doing is wasting your time getting even more stupid people out to vote . . . all that matters is that you fucking earned a blue ribbon signifying participation, like back in grade school. Whoo gold star!

    16. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by zephvark · · Score: 1

      You had me until "Especially during such a precarious time in our nation's history." I do hope you're under 16 and this still seems like a new trope to you. O tempora, o mores.

    17. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by MunchMunch · · Score: 1

      This is a debate that will never be resolved. But for what it's worth, I think you're wrong, and voting for a republican or democrat is the sad but rational choice, given our electoral system.

      To change it, you would need some structural assurance that people who vote for the third party are not in fact effectively voting for their opposition's two-party choice. As the system works now, you're putting a hope and a dream of how things should work ahead of how things actually work.

    18. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by 517714 · · Score: 1

      Thanks Iowa. Primaries are now their #1 industry and look what kind of shit they turn out.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    19. Re:How Is Obama Doing On Open Government? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who knows what the Republicans would have been like. The media did such a job on them it's difficult to know. Possibly we need "none on the above" added to the ballot.

      The majority of both parties are for big government, both are for extremes. What we need is a party that is for the constitution without all the Liberal and Conservative baggage. The Tea Party is for the Constitution but they have even more far right baggage than the normal Republicans.

  12. Did you really expect anyhting else? by Kosi · · Score: 2

    Obama did not realize even one of his important promises - Guantanamo still exists, health service is not better, not even the tax gifts to the super-rich from Bush were taken back, next to all the other things. That man is just a living disappointment, despite being the lesser of the possible evils.

    1. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Nocturnal+Deviant · · Score: 1

      by lesser im guessing you mean young and black....pretty sure those are the only differences between him and dubyah.

      --
      -Noc
    2. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by XLR8DST8 · · Score: 1

      first of all, letting people keep money they earned on their own is not a gift. second of all, $250k/yr is not even rich, let alone super rich. third, the tax rates under the bush-obama tax cuts are only going from 38.6% to 35%. people are arguing over less than 4%. furthermore, if one makes 250k a year they're still paying $99,000 a year in taxes. that's a lot of money to work very hard for only to be taken away & given to others who did not earn it.

    3. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by atriusofbricia · · Score: 1

      Obama did not realize even one of his important promises - Guantanamo still exists, health service is not better, not even the tax gifts to the super-rich from Bush were taken back, next to all the other things. That man is just a living disappointment, despite being the lesser of the possible evils.

      To play devil's advocate for a moment on the health thing, what did you expect was going to happen? He'd seize direct control over the health care industry, wave a magic wand, sprinkle a spot of unicorn dust and make it free? Don't worry, if you get what you seem to want we'll all be paying 50%+ income tax like in the utopia that is Europe. Oh, how are they doing financially these days anyway?

      Side note.. if you really think anyone making more than X where X isn't followed by at least six places is "super rich" then you clearly don't understand the scale of things. Also, what exactly do you think is to gain by raising taxes on such people anyway?

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    4. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Kosi · · Score: 1

      It's not about "raising" taxes for them, it's about making them pay their part of the share. People with a monthly income greater than other people's income in their whole life should pay at least the same percentage in taxes of that income that normal people do!

    5. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Kosi · · Score: 1

      "On their own", LMAO! "On others' backs" is the right term here!

    6. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be nice if we could move "up to" a flat tax from the horrifically regressive situation we have now -- much less a progressive situation where the people who suffer because they have to wait a whole year before they can afford to buy their second yacht pay a larger percent of their income in taxes than the poor who can only afford two meals a day.

    7. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Kosi · · Score: 1

      I see some more differences here, mostly in the IQ. :) While dubya clearly only was a puppet of people like Cheney, Obama seemed less dependent in his decisions. But maybe that's only my view from far away (being a German who's never been to the US, and surely will not unless I can do that without giving my fingerprints)

    8. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First of all, they couldn't earn even a tenth of that amount without the government's investments in American infrastructure. It absolutely is a giveaway when you say "Oh, you're so rich, you shouldn't HAVE TO pay your fair share."

      Second, anything over $100k/yr is rich by my standards -- and my salary is well over the "median income" line in this country.

      Third, a 4% tax holiday that we can't afford is just as worth arguing about as a 20% tax holiday we can't afford.

      You have a point about the taxed income being a lot of money to work hard for only to be taken away and given to people who didn't earn it. Like the CEOs of Halliburton, BP, AIG, and Goldman Sachs. It burns me up to know that those wretches are living in the lap of luxury on the basis of subsidies from my tax dollars.

    9. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Nocturnal+Deviant · · Score: 1

      public speaking ability =/= IQ unfortunately...or else obama would be better by orders of magnitude.

      --
      -Noc
    10. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Kosi · · Score: 1

      In general, you are right. But, just compare some recordings of Bush and Obama, and then tell me that Bush isn't IQ-wise closer to a chimpanzee than to the average human, while Obama surpasses a great part of the population he's president of. And I'm not sure that this won't be an insult to all those chimpanzees out there.

    11. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Either you think taxes are wrong and cut them all or you don't. Cutting only for people who make more than X is discrimination.

      And 250k may not be rich, but it's still 5 times your average salary.

    12. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by erstazi · · Score: 1

      Actually, George W. Bush's I.Q. score is 129 which is higher than John F. Kennedy's I.Q. of 119. George W. Bush could not speak with clarify to save his life but that doesn't mean he was "dumb." A study (cannot find the source, right now) that I have seen said that intelligent people (high on the bell curve) tend to not connect with voters well.

    13. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Nocturnal+Deviant · · Score: 1

      oh im not disagreeing with you at all. I am merely stating they are doing nothing different haha =)

      --
      -Noc
    14. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Kosi · · Score: 1

      GWB having an IQ of 129? LOL, on which scale, one that sets 150 as the average? On the scale I am taking about, 100 is defined as the average.

    15. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Ghengis+Khak · · Score: 1

      To play devil's advocate for a moment on the health thing, what did you expect was going to happen?

      I thought he would implement the exact plan he argues against in this Democratic Party primary debate with Clinton. Why? Because it is the most straightforward way to transfer wealth directly from the poor/middle classes into the hands of insurance companies and because he is a corporate shill.

    16. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Kosi · · Score: 1

      In terms of effect on what happened, unfortunately there's no big difference. But that's not related to their IQ, it's a consequence of the absurd ways of your presidential elections. The one who received the biggest bribes becomes president, and the bribers will want returns for their investments. Not really better than the way it works here in Germany, just a little more obvious.

    17. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      You're a fucking moron. If I'm a software engineer and I spend all my time busting my ass for a living and pull down a little over six figures and my wife is in a similar field and pulls down similar cash, exactly whose backs are we earning the money off of? Just because you flip burgers for a living and look at everything in life as an opportunity to get others to give you shit rather than earning it doesn't mean that the rest of us didn't fucking earn it and that we don't work fucking hard for our money and deserve it over dishing it out to bullshit programs and wastes of flesh. I pay enough in taxes every year that I could pay for two years at a private university for a kid just on the tax bill alone. What the fuck do you contribute other than bitching about how others aren't paying enough?

    18. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Yeah? Well, I know a guy who is pretty bad off and sees anything over $20k as rich. He thinks YOU should spend a lot more in taxes.

      How about you stop slapping dicks over how much people make and how unfair it is that they make that and recognize that our money is wasted and that people can do more with their own money and that they deserve as much money as they can keep? That $100k isn't worth so much after you pay taxes. On $100k/yr, you are still having significant budget concerns when it comes to buying a house and funding a car. I can't even imagine how one further manages to raise children and care for a spouse on that amount. And fund retirement while you're at it.

      Rich is a state in which your regular income no longer factors into your survival into the future. A point at which your future is taken care of and you are no longer dependent on more income. Being able to afford a mortgate on a typical $250k house and a payment on a car is hardly "rich".

      Also, rather than this bullshit about "tax holiday", how about we just stop catering to every pansy out there and fucking CUT the god damned spending?

    19. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      First, taxes are not cut "only for people who make more than X". In fact, the more money you make, the higher your tax bracket. How is it not discrimination for you to pay 15% and someone else to pay 31%? And how is it discrimination if they are given a break, so that they only pay 28%? They're still paying almost double the percentage that you are (and probably many times the actual dollar amount that you are). How is *that* fair?

      Further, what kind of bullshit is "either you think taxes are wrong and cut them all or you don't"? I think paying for schooling for your shitty kids isn't justified. I think paying for all the government pork and private industry handouts isn't justified. I think paying to provide government jobs just to bolster employment numbers isn't justified. I think a whole slew of social programs aren't justified. I think the trillions spent on bullshit military action aren't justified. That doesn't mean that taxes pertaining to properly defending the country and doing other vital things that can **only** be done by the collective power of the people aren't justified. Just because one or ten things are a just use of people's taxes doesn't give carte blanche to spray it around like unlimited holy jizz.

      As for the final statement. I don't see what that has to do with anything. So $250k is five times an average salary? So what? What if it were ten times? Or a million times? How is that fucking relevant?

      Oh, and while we're talking about this supposed "discrimination", the top 10% of tax payers (which includes people making surprisingly little -- not just millionaires, but people in fairly regular every day jobs like doctors and programmers and QA and sales guys) account for something ridiculous like 50% or more of all taxes received by the government. I think they're carrying their fair share and then some, just fine.

    20. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understand how any of this works. People who make more money DO pay "at least the same percentage in taxes of that income than normal people do". First of all, the top 10% of tax payers account for more than 50% of all taxes. And we're not talking millionaires. We're talking regular dudes with regular jobs who maybe make a little over six figures and bust their hump in thankless daily drudgery just like everyone else. Second, if you make $15k or $25k or $30k, you belong in a bracket that pays a much lower percentage than those who make more money. If you make only $75k, you pay something like 28% in taxes. If you make $15k, you pay . . . what, 10%? Correct me if I'm wrong in my math, but I think 28 is higher than 10. Even without a higher percentage, it'd be more money. 10% of $100k is a fuck of a lot more than 10% of $10k. And 28% of $100k is waaay more than 10% of $10k. Where is it that these people aren't paying their fair share, again? It sounds like they're the ones footing the bill for the other 90% of the country.

    21. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Kosi · · Score: 1

      I don't work at McD, and they'd have to pay me a greater amount of compensation for suffering in addition to the salary than they ever would before I'd consider to do that.

      Look, a great bunch of the people with a salary of six figures and above only have that because of others doing the real work while they just "manage" them. Useless assheads they mostly are! I surely did not want to attack hard working (as in work = doing something that actually results in a piece of work) people like you seem to be.

    22. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Kosi · · Score: 0

      As long as there are people with a monthly income greater than what I will probably earn in my whole lifetime, while paying less taxes each month than I am, without having to do any real work for it, there is something completely wrong.
       

    23. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      That assumes that "a great part of population" is better than chimpanzee.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    24. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Mine. I write operating systems and libraries that you use.

      Shut up and pay your taxes.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    25. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Without services that are paid by taxes, all those people would have $0. Because I would just rob all of them.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    26. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Kosi · · Score: 1

      OK, I admit that I have made an insult to many many chimpanzees with that sentence. I apologize!

    27. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 0

      You're being really stupid. Did you know that?

    28. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 0

      Shouldn't you be off somewhere writing code?

      When you wave your dick around like that, it doesn't win any points.

    29. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Backpedal faster!

    30. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Yes, and what percentage of the average $1M+ per year wage earners income is subject to those taxes in the first place?

      First, those brackets only apply after deductions. The number of shell games you can play with that kind of income is incredible.

      Second, those brackets only apply to REGULAR income. You know, where you show up for n hours and make $x per hour? Probably 90% of the income of the wealthy is not REGULAR income and those brackets do not apply at all.

      Much of the income of the wealthy is in the form of capital gains. Those are only taxed when they are realized, and at a rate of 15% much of the time (in fact, it can be 0% if your regular income is very low). There are lots of games that can be played with this as well.

      Oh, and many of the wealthy have a lifestyle that is at least in part paid for by corporations (their own or somebody else's). When Bill Gates gets a private jet ride to NYC, how much of that do you think he actually pays? That is non-monetary compensation of a sort, and may or may not even be taxable depending on how good a job you spin the justification for it from a corporate perspective, and even if it is taxable it is rarely reported. I doubt the typical CEO pays for more than a meal or two per week...

    31. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Kosi · · Score: 1

      I heard that guy talking often enough to see that he's not one of the brightest. And please don't try to tell me that he just lacks a little rhetoric capability.

      Don't have a link handy, but search for what Larry Hagman (JR Ewing) said about Bush. A little harsh, but I liked it. :)
       

    32. Re:Did you really expect anyhting else? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Ok, someone else would rob them instead of me.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  13. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    "You do it over rule of law, rules of evidence, and principles..."

    This is America. We exist only for the Citizens who are Corporations.

    Everyone else is a serf.

    If you don't like it, you shouldn't have elected a right-of-center President like Obama.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  14. Innocent until proven guilty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess that goes away when it is inconvenient huh?

  15. This is a joke, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As an outside observer sitting on the other side of the pond, I can't help but observe that Obama and his administration are doing a pathetic job keeping any promises. I keep hearing stuff like them dodging FOIA requests, making corporations people, letting corporations make unlimited 'donations' to politicians, extending the Patriot Act, allow unchecked wiretapping, insist on IP expansionism, label whistleblowers terrorists, let ICE run the country like the fucking Stasi, etc etc etc, all the while failing to withdraw any troops from anywhere or even close an effing torture facility in his back yard.

    How far removed all that is from being "Open Government" I don't have a way of telling, but it's pretty damn far if you ask me. Seriously Americans, is this really a president and government that represents you and your interests? Bloody hell, you people.

    1. Re:This is a joke, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not defending Obama's job on his promises, but Obama didn't have control over the Supreme Court's decision of "Personhood" of Corporations.

    2. Re:This is a joke, right? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Who, do you think, signs bills into laws?

      By the way, US already had the framework they could use to deal with "personhood" of corporations. They can just declare them an equivalent of slaves.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  16. all not true and covers stuff vs we will not pay y by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    all not true and covers stuff vs we will not pay your on own of the old plan.

  17. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

    Obama is ALMOST as bad as GW Bush on this... and that's really sad. I voted for him because I believed he would move us away from the corptocracy and BOY was I wrong.

  18. tsar by SnarfQuest · · Score: 2

    So, what are all those tsars doing anyway?

    --
    Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    1. Re:tsar by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Bickering:

      I wish your father were alive.

      Don't throw him at me.

      He knew how to be a Tsar. He'd have burned Vienna down, stamped on the Germans, shot the strikers, ANYTHING to give Russia peace. And HE'D certainly know how to deal with Rasputin. YOUR FATHER KNEW HOW TO BE A TSAR.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
  19. Wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    We're trying but we can't get any goddamn budget. Make up your minds, do you want forward progress or budget cuts?

    1. Re:Wtf by Seumas · · Score: 2

      That's idiotic. Forward progress IS budget cuts. What fucking kind of budget do you work with where it's considered PROGRESS because you saved less and spent more? Progress would be having the balls to tell all these whiny bitches to fuck off when you have to cut their programs. Everyone has a special interest and pet program so if you cut things, someone's always going to be pissed. But that's the price you have to pay so that you don't have to pay the price. Pissing off a few whiny twats seems worth it to avoid being a trillion dollars over budget and 15 trillion in deficit.

    2. Re:Wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's idiotic. Forward progress IS budget cuts. What fucking kind of budget do you work with where it's considered PROGRESS because you saved less and spent more? Progress would be having the balls to tell all these whiny bitches to fuck off when you have to cut their programs. Everyone has a special interest and pet program so if you cut things, someone's always going to be pissed. But that's the price you have to pay so that you don't have to pay the price. Pissing off a few whiny twats seems worth it to avoid being a trillion dollars over budget and 15 trillion in deficit.

      Ok fine. I never said cutting the budget is not a problem...but quit bitching for more progress towards "open government" at the same time. Either cut programs and shrink projects to save money......and live with the lack of innovation or put money into programs and expect innovation.

  20. Change by gearloos · · Score: 1

    The only change I want has to do with him and the presidency

    --
    "Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
    1. Re:Change by speedingant · · Score: 1

      Have fun complaining about everyone that gets into power. They're all as bad as each other. Changes happens when you, the collective, do something about it.

    2. Re:Change by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because the next guy will be really different.

      That's what was amusing about this past election. All these fucking naive idiots acting like the world was going to change. Shocker for you, as long as all people base their votes on is "but what's it going to do for ME!" rather than principal, all we're going to get is douche bags. It's always "who believes the same mythology as me?" and "who is going to support or push my religion over the others" and "who is going to give me free health care" and "who is going to give me free education" and "who is going to give me more social security". It's never about "who supports fundamental rights like privacy, speech, and one's pursuit of happiness?".

  21. How is Obama doing on Open Government? by Nov8tr · · Score: 1

    FAIL.

    --
    I'm old, not dead. Well that's my 2 cents worth, your mileage may vary. I say what I think, not what you want to hear.
  22. Open Government? Your kidding right? by redkcir · · Score: 1

    My guess is that this OMB Watch report is from another time-line or dimension. It certainly isn't from this one. This administration would make any suppressive government proud of it's polices.

    1. Re:Open Government? Your kidding right? by atriusofbricia · · Score: 0

      My guess is that this OMB Watch report is from another time-line or dimension. It certainly isn't from this one. This administration would make any suppressive government proud of it's polices.

      Sorry, you seem to be new here. Let me correct you. Clearly you meant to say that this administration is as open as it can be and that any hint of it not being wide open is all George Bush's fault. I'm sure you also meant to call for higher taxes on the "rich" and.. hmm... oh yeah, free health care. :)

      After all, on Slashdot in 2011 everything is the fault of A) Corporations, B) The Rich, C) George Bush, D) the fact the US isn't doing X the same way they do X in Europe, or some combination of all of those.

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    2. Re:Open Government? Your kidding right? by redkcir · · Score: 1

      No, I am not new here or to this. Nor do I subscribe to the CNN (Communist News Networks) line of thought that everything is Bushes fault (nor do I believe he was a saint). As for Europe and their agenda, US bashing is just fox and grapes revisited. Turning the US into Europe is just dragging us down to their level because they can't reach ours, so I see no need to play that game. I do think that our current government (both sides) have lost their purpose and have fallen to the will of their party's, not the will or well being of their constituents. If that means I'm paddling against the current river of thought, I'll just use a bigger paddle.

  23. Summary is too long by mykos · · Score: 2

    implementation of improved Freedom of Information Act policies has lagged

    That's all we needed to know.

    1. Re:Summary is too long by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And marijuana is still illegal. OBAMA, YOU LIED.

  24. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No kidding... look at how many people Goldman Sachs has in, or connected to, the WH...

  25. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The fact that Obama is pro-military adventurism does not make him right-of-center. All known Communist regimes are heavily militarized. He can be pro-military and a committed Communist. I am not saying that he is, btw. But I am underlining a glaring logic flaw in your argument.

  26. Speaking of games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thank God Obama had time to give us his Final Four pics. I thought he might have been too busy to follow college basketball at this particular moment, what with our Middle East puppets dropping like flies and the world's 3rd largest economy being crippled by an earthquake. I was honestly VERY concerned that Obama wouldn't be able to find the time to give us his 4 teams. For a man that hates conservatism so much, he sure went conservative on those picks, though.

  27. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by ArcherB · · Score: 1

    "You do it over rule of law, rules of evidence, and principles..."

    This is America. We exist only for the Citizens who are Corporations.

    Everyone else is a serf.

    If you don't like it, you shouldn't have elected a right-of-center President like Obama.

    Obama is only "right of center" if you are left of Marx!

    --
    There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
  28. Doing Great!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course he's doing great on open government! I mean, he really put himself out there with his NCAA picks!!

  29. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by icebraining · · Score: 1

    What exactly has he done that can be considered as left?

    You may consider the health care bill authoritarian, but even then it's at most fascist/corporatist, never leftist. A leftist government would never leave something like healthcare for private companies to run.

  30. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by icebraining · · Score: 1

    Parent said nothing about military. He said "We exist only for the Citizens who are Corporations."

    Corporatism is definitively not a "left policy."

  31. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by rtb61 · · Score: 1

    The political left right scale is a global measure. Centre right political parties in Canada, United Kingdom, France, Australia et al all support universal health care (they all also have political parties that are centre left). So by any definition the Democrats majority opposition to universal health care puts them just a little right of centre right. Forget all that Fox not-News and their Tea Party bullshit, it is nothing but bullshit.

    As for Open Government according to Bradley Manning, they have imprisoned it, stripped it naked, asked it if is still alive every 5 minutes and, denied it a defence. All to preserve a plethora of public lies, literally thousands upon thousands of them. So how is open government doing, hmm, it is a can of air freshener over combined sewerage outlet and rubbish dump, still pretending it is something it is not.

    --
    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  32. THERE ARE NO TSARS IN THE US GOV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The job titles are LONG and not easy to report so the PRESS started calling them tsars not the government. Some job titles are almost comical they are so long winded but it was the press who started doing this. I do now know when they started but given how slow they are today I can't see them ever going to the real titles...

  33. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone who voted for Obama thinking he was going to do anything good is a fool, you all should have voted for Ron Paul.

  34. Just Obama Shit ... Move Along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The White House Staff and the staffs of the Oligarchs are working overtime.

    Ignore them.

    That Barak Hussain Obama shits in public view while searching for the succullent 2-yr old for sex in southeast DC is not a story.

    -308

  35. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Seumas · · Score: 1

    Anyone who went into 2008 thinking "things are going to be really different once we elect a new president!" was incredibly naive and a lot of us told the daydreamers exactly that. And guess what? The next president isn't going to make things really different, either. No matter who he or she is. And the one after that and the one after that and so on. On the occasions that things truly are different or something wonderful actually does occur, the president in office at the time is merely the beneficiary of fortunate coincidence. To be a viable presidential candidate, you must have already been vetted by the same aristocracy that has vetted all the ones before it and only once you have received their blessing (financially and otherwise) is your bid to make bullshit promises and pandering to the American public the next action.

  36. Re:Okay... (no, it's not!) by Seumas · · Score: 1

    Our Constitution also protects against unfounded and unwarranted search and siezure, which is trampled on more every day. It also guarantees the right of the state to determine its laws and future rather than the government (ie, not a Rome-as-the-center-of-it-all type government), which is trampled on further every day from attempts to tax services across state lines to the tens of thousands of FEDERAL laws and the recent health care laws.

    Without anyone willing to defend it, the Constitution is just a charming piece of sheepskin with about as much value as toilet paper.

  37. Re:Okay... (no, it's not!) by Kosi · · Score: 1

    Then stand up and defend it! IIRC, your constitution allows you to do that, even using firearms for this purpose. I often have the same "toilet-paper-feeling" here in Germany, but I have to admit that I don't feel our constitution being trampled on so much as I would if I was a US citizen.

    Being member #150 of the Pirate Party of Germany, I hope that we can change some things to the better in the future. But I am aware that this is more a dream than a realistic outlook.

  38. How about his own documents? by CodeMasterBob · · Score: 0

    Maybe Obama's Open Government should start with some documents of his own.

  39. Transparency requires Leakiness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Leakiness -- people in government having the culture and technical ability to share with press and public, information their bosses wish kept from them -- is required for transparency. The temptation to secrecy, to avoid embarrassment, is very strong. Strengthening management's ability to prevent leaks, necessarily comes at the cost of long-term transparency. And this administration is taking Bush's singular efforts to leak-proof government... and pushing them even further.

    The Obama administration - we talk wisdom... and then completely ignore it to pursue the least wise of the Bush-Cheney policies, with even greater nutty intensity than they did.

  40. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Health care bill establishes a mandate on every citizen by virtue of the fact that they are alive. Not because they engage in a certain activity. Not because they hold a certain view. Simple fact that they are alive makes them responsible for reporting to the government once a year which health care insurance they purchased. Soviet Union required every citizen to register where they lived. This, however, goes further. Whether you are employed or not, you will be required to file a form which will indicate where you live and which government-approved health plan you bought. It is unprecedented tracking of citizens on Orwellian scale.

  41. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

    You still have an excuse that McCain was worse.

    This does not change the fact that you guys are stupid. You expect to make your "choice" by selecting a person once in four years, and then complain that all choices were bad. Of course, they are bad, they are given you by organizations that work against you! If you want to improve your political system, don't choose -- subvert either of two parties so it will actually do something that makes sense. For fuck sake, if you weren't a bunch of morons, you could join Republicans and sabotage them until all real Republicans leave -- and then turn their party into Social Democrats or whatever else that you think, makes sense. (Then I will join Democrats and turn them into Communists. Former Republicans can go to Tea Party, Libertarians and some probably even KKK).

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  42. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

    Don't forget to shoot IRS people when they try to collect taxes, moron!

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  43. Fuck off america by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck off america

  44. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

    The KKK was always mostly democrat. I live in the part of the US now where the KKK was the most powerful in the first half of the 20th century. They were always a "people's" type organization. Kind of like the Lions Club or the Freemasons. The blue-blood Republicans of the era wanted nothing to do with them. Belonging to the KKK in that era just meant you belonged to a civic club. One that hated blacks, all minorities and (most of all) the Roman Catholic Church (far more than they hated blacks, who were already 'down' and out of sight for the most part), but a 'civic group' nonetheless. KKK members controlled most branches of Government in Indiana during the 1930's. They were as mainstream as it gets. And populist. Like the Democrats.

  45. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

    The IRS only collects taxes if you have a taxable income. They have no pretext to go door-to-door.

    Really, you don't seem to know a fuck of a lot about America. For all your smugness.

  46. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by drsmithy · · Score: 1

    Obama is only "right of center" if you are left of Marx!

    In pretty much every civilised country except America, Obama would be considered right-wing. Republicans would be far right wing, and the Tea Party would be crazy far right wing.

  47. Ask Assange & WikiLeaks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obama - along with the 'hang-em & flog-em' Republicans - really does like the inner working of government (i.e. the total incompetence) being exposed.

  48. Re:Okay... (no, it's not!) by Third+Position · · Score: 1

    Without anyone willing to defend it, the Constitution is just a charming piece of sheepskin with about as much value as toilet paper.

    The problem is, there's not much of it left worth defending. Considering it's usually used as a bludgeon to whack Americans over the head, we'd probably be just as well off to declare it null and void and start over. I suspect not a few of the signatories of the original document would sign on to that project happily, if they could see what uses it was being put to today.

    Like the Queen of England, our Constitution is a figurehead which poses no threat to our current government.

    --
    American Third Position
    Finally, a real choice!
  49. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by icebraining · · Score: 1

    Soviet Union required every citizen to register where they lived.

    Yes, and I'm pretty sure they had lots of other things in common, but that doesn't mean it's a "left" policy.

    In fact, if it was "left", you wouldn't need to report, as you wouldn't need to purchase any health insurance, that would be provided by the state itself and paid by taxes.

  50. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The individual mandate was an idea originally put forward in 1993 by Republicans, lead by such stalwart communists as Bob Dole, Jesse Helms, and Trent Lott.

  51. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by 517714 · · Score: 1

    Eurocentric nonsense. If it is a global measure why are China, India, United States, Indonesia, Brazil, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Russia, Japan, Mexico, Philippines, and Vietnam not included in your list? All have greater population and some have larger economies, but don't let facts get in the way.

    --
    The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
  52. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

    Ron Paul has too close of ties to White Supremacists and Nazi groups too be a viable candidate.

  53. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

    Thats exactly what the Christian Collation did to the Republican Party, they are taking it over and shifting it from Eisenhower, Goldwater, Nixon, Reagan policies to Pat Robertson/Ron Paul policies.

    The Tea Baggers aren't real Republicans, at least not historical Republicans from 1850-1996, Tea Baggers are fringe Christian Collation folks.

    I'm a life long moderate Republican along the lines of Nixon/Reagan, I won't vote for a Tea Bagger or Ron Paul type.

  54. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

    The KKK aren't Republicans, you are correct, from the formation of the KKK till the Civil Rights movement, the KKK members and sympathizers were strict Southern Democrats.

    Even David Duke was a Democrat until 1982

    Northern Democrats were the ones who pushed Civil Rights and eventually took over the party, pushing some of the "Dixiecrats" into the Republican Party and others hung on to their seats as a Democrat.

  55. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

    And the original push for universal health care was Nixon in 1970 and 1972, the Ted Kennedy pushed the Democrats to refuse to deal with Nixon.

  56. Re:Okay... (no, it's not!) by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

    The US Constitution doesn't say anything about using firearms to defend the Constitution. It just says the citizens have the right to keep arms and the Federal Government can't take those arms away.

  57. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

    Nixon and Reagan were both to the "Left" of Bill Clinton and Barack Obama.

    But Nixon would have hated being categorized with Reagan - he thought of him as a charade and a twerp.

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
  58. Remember ACTA, negotiated in SECRECY by eee_eff · · Score: 2
    The policy of secrecy surrounding the ACTA negotiations was shameful, and this policy was lifted straight from the Bush Administration. Obama gets a "ZERO"

    But don't take my word for, listen to the several dozen civic organizations that filed a protest, listen to Senator Whyden, whose excellent letter to USTR went unanswered. Listen to Canadian law professor Michael Geist. Listen to Knowledge Ecology, whose FOIA request the Obama Administration denied on "national security" grounds.

    Knowledge Ecology ACTA News: http://keionline.org/taxonomy/term/95

    Knowledge Ecology ACTA timeline: http://keionline.org/node/991

    Michael Geist: http://www.michaelgeist.ca/index.php?option=com_tags&task=view&tag=acta&Itemid=408

  59. Re:Okay... (no, it's not!) by Kosi · · Score: 1

    Thanks.

  60. Big Surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Big F***ing surprise. See the response to Wikileaks, which is a governement clampdown on the net. See the KILL SWITCH for american internet providers which was passed by Congress at Obama's instruction. See the new measures in every corner which are the camel's nose, head, neck, hum, shoulders and soon to be ass inside the tent of the internet. You voted him in, now you deal with him.

  61. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

    I see, there are no objections to the rest of this :-)

    Of course, when I mentioned KKK, I mean that modern Republicans will find it attractive -- despite the history of that organization. My whole point is that both ruling parties are under control of nuts, and the only way to improve things is to leave nothing but a shells out of them, and build something less idiotic inside.

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  62. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by rtb61 · · Score: 1

    So which ones provide universal health and what is their position on the political scale. I gave an example, you gave nothing but a list, here is a longer one for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states. You list would have had meaning if you stated their position on the political scale and whether or not they had universal health care but, it would seem when it comes to facts you need none at all.

    --
    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  63. Re:Okay... or the specious Rule of Law arg(0) by 517714 · · Score: 1

    I only need demonstrate that that the facts in evidence are not relevant or sufficient to draw a conclusion in order to refute the conclusion drawn by the previous poster. I do not have to provide an alternative conclusion. The previous poster had, I believe, either drawn a conclusion and cited countries which support it, or has a very limited view of the world. I made no claim that my list was inclusive, simply better than his and likely to support a different conclusion, if one could be drawn at all.

    --
    The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.