IBM Charged With Bribing Korean, Chinese Officials

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IBM Charged With Bribing Korean, Chinese Officials

Posted by timothy on Sunday March 20, 2011 @01:15PM from the conditions-on-the-ground-called-for-it dept.

angry tapir writes "The US Securities and Exchange Commission has charged IBM with giving hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes to South Korean and Chinese officials starting in the late 1990s, according to court documents. IBM has agreed to pay US$10 million to settle the SEC lawsuit."

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Bribery fines are funny by MartinSchou · 2011-03-20 13:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

"We're sorry we bribed these guys over there. How much do we have to pay you guys to make this problem go away?"
1. Re:Bribery fines are funny by phantomfive · 2011-03-20 13:25 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Seriously, doesn't it seem like the US SEC just wanted in on the deal? I'm against bribery because living in a culture of bribery is miserable. If China wants to have a system of bribes necessary to get anything done, let them do so. I don't want the SEC to import that culture over here!
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
2. Re:Bribery fines are funny by tnk1 · 2011-03-20 13:40 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  I know what you mean, but what else can you do other than levy a fine? It looks like from the article that the problem was with subsidiaries in other countries creating slush funds and IBM simply did not have controls in place to prevent that. I don't know if you could convict any US employee of the actual bribes or even for looking the other way. Some of them might have known about it, but good luck proving that. They could prove the company was liable, but they can't throw anyone in jail for it. They could prove IBM did not have sufficient controls, but they couldn't prove that the reason wasn't that their accounting group just plain sucked. Last I checked you can be fired, but it is much, much harder to convict someone for being bad at their job.
3. Re:Bribery fines are funny by mirix · 2011-03-20 13:43 · Score: 1
  
  This is one of the fundamental problems with legal persons, accountability.
  
  --
  Sent from my PDP-11
4. Re:Bribery fines are funny by rolfwind · 2011-03-20 14:05 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  No, they're hypocritical. US Govt uses bribery and extortion all the time.
5. Re:Bribery fines are funny by rolfwind · 2011-03-20 14:10 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  If China wants to have a system of bribes necessary to get anything done, let them do so. I don't want the SEC to import that culture over here!
  What, are you fucking ignorant?
  Haven't you seen how Congress is controlled yet? Via campaign contributions. And you don't think that it's filtered down to the state and local level?
  My town only lets tow truck company with town specific permits pick up cars within limits, they even apply this to the highway which technically is federal and should be illegal, and they only let one company have the permits even though there are many others in the area.
6. Re:Bribery fines are funny by gestalt_n_pepper · 2011-03-20 14:22 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  ...what else can you do other than levy a fine?
  You can throw the top executives who made the decisions in jail with the general prison population. Of course, executive hanging would more effectively reduce recidivism, particularly if done publicly on the nightly news.
  
  --
  Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
7. Re:Bribery fines are funny by oldhack · 2011-03-20 14:23 · Score: 2
  
  Are they made to pay any to S. Korean authority?
  
  --
  Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
8. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Doc+Ruby · 2011-03-20 14:27 · Score: 3
  
  There is no legal or ethical reason the SEC cannot have laws that penalize this kind of bribery with jail time by the people in the corporation who did the illegal acts. There is also no legal or ethical reason the SEC cannot require the kind of auditable bookkeeping that would make "looking the other way" a crime actively committed, rather than merely an obligation passively neglected.
  The only reason we do not have those laws and enforce them is that corporations own the legislators and regulators the people put in charge of these consequences. And that the corporations competing with each other accept the unfair competition, instead of using the legislators and regulators they own to make and enforce such laws properly.
  And of course the only reason any of that is the situation is because we the people accept it, even insist on it.
  
  --
  --
  make install -not war
9. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Fluffeh · 2011-03-20 14:31 · Score: 2
  
  I don't know if you could convict any US employee of the actual bribes or even for looking the other way. Some of them might have known about it, but good luck proving that. They could prove the company was liable, but they can't throw anyone in jail for it.
  Why not? If you can't find Joe Fatpockets who handed the cash over, get his boss. Seeing as it was more likely a cheque or transfer of money, I am sure that there is a lovely audit trail of who authorised that and who requested it.
  If I can go to jail for bribing someone, I don't see why the same shouldn't apply just because a COMPANY did it. IBM bribed a few (or many) hundred thousand dollars. They likely gained many (or a few) millions from those bribes in return business. A $10 mill fine isn't going to mean anything. They have likely made a heck of a lot more in return anyhow. Make an example if you want to start teaching your companies to trade above board. $10 million fine AND someone goes to jail for bribery. Start at the top of the food chain - I am sure the CEO will track it down the chain to find the dodgy guy - or throw him in jail, that's what CEOs get paid the big bucks for at the end of the day right? THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE COMPANY.
  
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  Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
10. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Coeurderoy · 2011-03-20 14:44 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  You do not have/need a joe fatpockets, what you need is a willingness to have agents whose accounts you do not review..., and that is much harder to prosecute, and moreover many american would not like to loose the salary that the cash obtained this way brings in..
  so of course it is "nice" to have the fantasy of punishing the bad CEO's, but changing the way you consume is a more efficient step..
11. Re:Bribery fines are funny by tibit · 2011-03-20 15:12 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Does SEC, or anyone in the U.S. for that matter, have jurisdiction over supposedly illegal acts outside of the country? Is it even SEC's business that officials abroad were bribed? Shouldn't the Chinese slap them with, say, imprisonment of responsible persons?
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
12. Re:Bribery fines are funny by NiceGeek · 2011-03-20 15:18 · Score: 3
  
  Hanging for bribery? A little harsh don't you think?
13. Re:Bribery fines are funny by CodeBuster · 2011-03-20 15:32 · Score: 1
  
  Does SEC, or anyone in the U.S. for that matter, have jurisdiction over supposedly illegal acts outside of the country?
  Apparently, if the companies or subsidiaries responsible are owned by a US corporation, yes.
  
  Shouldn't the Chinese slap them with, say, imprisonment of responsible persons?
  Chinese do what they like in China, but imprisoning foreigners, especially executives, looks bad and is bad for business. It's hard to convince foreigners to invest in your country if you lock them when the set foot on your soil after all.
14. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Hecatonchires · 2011-03-20 15:37 · Score: 1
  
  I know what you mean, but what else can you do other than levy a fine?
  Set the fines as a % of annual revenue, or some other legally required, stockmarket linked reporting number.
  Company A found guilty, earnt a million dollars, fined 85%. $850000 fine.
  Company I(B)M, earnt a hojillion dollars - 85% of a hojillion is a lot.
  The trick is using the same number that they use to justify their senior exec bonuses.
  
  --
  Yay me!
15. Re:Bribery fines are funny by vertinox · 2011-03-20 15:53 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Hanging for bribery? A little harsh don't you think?
  The Chinese don't think so.
  Well.... They shot him rather than hanged, but I suppose its close enough.
  
  --
  "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
  -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
16. Re:Bribery fines are funny by mug+funky · 2011-03-20 15:53 · Score: 2
  
  if these charges were pressed in China, there'd be more than just fines... people would die.
17. Re:Bribery fines are funny by MasaMuneCyrus · 2011-03-20 15:54 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Chinese do what they like in China, but imprisoning foreigners, especially executives, looks bad and is bad for business. It's hard to convince foreigners to invest in your country if you lock them when the set foot on your soil after all.
  One of the things China likes is bribes. Bribes aren't a way to get ahead in business over there, they are the way to do business. Maybe it's changing, maybe its not -- depending on who you ask -- but I'd guess that Intel not only bribed officials a ton, but they were probably expected to bribe a ton, and it probably wasn't looked down upon as long as the culturally-proper chain of bribes was maintained.
  I'm not sure about South Korea nowadays, but they also certainly have a history of bribery as a way to do business, and I bet that it was were pretty damn common in the early 90's.
18. Re:Bribery fines are funny by suso · 2011-03-20 16:52 · Score: 2
  
  I'd say its not nearly as bad as in other countries. Generally people are against bribery in the U.S. In other countries, its a way of life.
19. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Nyder · 2011-03-20 17:37 · Score: 1
  
  "We're sorry we bribed these guys over there. How much do we have to pay you guys to make this problem go away?"
  Ya, reminds me when I was in High School and I got kicked out for 3 days for missing too many days and being late.
  I was like, cool. Didn't come back to school for 2 weeks, though I did keep up with my work.
  So, no, this shit doesn't surprise me in the least bit.
  
  --
  Be seeing you...
20. Re:Bribery fines are funny by mjwx · 2011-03-20 17:47 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  He wasn't hung for bribery,
  
  He was shot for getting caught.
  
  --
  Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
21. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Swampash · 2011-03-20 18:00 · Score: 1
  
  I don't want the SEC to import that culture over here!
  Taken a look at Congress any time in the past twenty years? Waaaaay too late.
22. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Anonymous Coward · 2011-03-20 18:12 · Score: 1
  
  The IBM executives who broke the rules should at least have all been sacked. There's nothing in the reports to say those involved got any kind of punishment.
  IBM has business conduct guidelines every employee has to sign off on and mandatory training which points out you can't do stuff like bribe government officials.
  It seems by omission of these details IBM is condoning the activity. Just payed the 10 million get of jail and now back to business as usual.
23. Re:Bribery fines are funny by phantomfive · 2011-03-20 18:14 · Score: 1
  
  It's not anywhere near the same. At least in America we don't have to pay a bribe to the police when we get pulled over, like they do in many countries.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
24. Re:Bribery fines are funny by thoughtsatthemoment · 2011-03-20 18:18 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Not quite accurate. It's not that hard to find a corrupted official at any level in China. He was shot because he lost his political "umbrella".
25. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Demena · 2011-03-20 18:57 · Score: 1
  
  Umm.. That has not stopped them doing precisely that to Australian executives.
26. Re:Bribery fines are funny by dryeo · 2011-03-20 19:09 · Score: 1
  
  I often hear about smalltown USA where they get most of their income from speed traps and such which target out of towners. From what I hear it sounds like bribery except you pay the Judge instead of the Police Officer.
  
  --
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
27. Re:Bribery fines are funny by lennier1 · 2011-03-20 19:12 · Score: 2
  
  At least they have the courtesy of calling it "campaign donations" and other names.
28. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Anonymous Coward · 2011-03-20 19:47 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  There is no legal or ethical reason the SEC cannot have laws that penalize this kind of bribery with jail time by the people in the corporation who did the illegal acts. There is also no legal or ethical reason the SEC cannot require the kind of auditable bookkeeping that would make "looking the other way" a crime actively committed, rather than merely an obligation passively neglected.
  The only reason we do not have those laws and enforce them...
  WTF are you talking about, Doc? We do have "those laws", and this article is about them being enforced.
  It's called the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.
  http://www.justice.gov/criminal/fraud/fcpa/
  And it's got plenty of penalties for individuals. Hell, even shareholders are liable. This law is serious business. Read the DoJ's lay person's guide:
  http://www.justice.gov/criminal/fraud/fcpa/docs/lay-persons-guide.pdf
  
  The following criminal penalties may be imposed for violations of the FCPA's anti-bribery
  provisions: corporations and other business entities are subject to a fine of up to $2,000,000;
  officers, directors, stockholders, employees, and agents are subject to a fine of up to
  $100,000 and imprisonment for up to five years. Moreover, under the Alternative Fines Act,
  these fines may be actually quite higher -- the actual fine may be up to twice the benefit that
  the defendant sought to obtain by making the corrupt payment. You should also be aware that
  fines imposed on individuals may not be paid by their employer or principal.
  I'd bold sections of that but it's all good.
  They can also go after you in a civil suit, where the burden of proof is lower:
  
  The Attorney General or the SEC, as appropriate, may bring a civil action for a fine of up to
  $10,000 against any firm as well as any officer, director, employee, or agent of a firm, or
  stockholder acting on behalf of the firm, who violates the anti-bribery provisions. In addition,
  in an SEC enforcement action, the court may impose an additional fine ...
  That's what they did in this case (hence no prison terms) according to TFA, and as you can see those "additional fines" can be rather high.
  Speaking of burden of proof, payments are assumed to be unlawful until proven otherwise:
  
  ...because these defenses are "affirmative defenses," the defendant is required to
  show in the first instance that the payment met these requirements. The prosecution does not
  bear the burden of demonstrating in the first instance that the payments did not constitute
  this type of payment.
  Not quite "guilty until proven innocent", but getting there.
  Seriously, read the DoJ's website. It addresses every point you brought up. It includes a chronological list of criminal cases (you will recognize some company names):
  http://www.justice.gov/criminal/fraud/fcpa/cases/2010.html
  Lots of people plead guilty when facing jail time, it seems. I'll leave it to you to go through the judgments and see how often prison, rather than probation, are handed down.
  [FWIW, I'm not in any way associated with the DoJ. I simply got some FPCA training at work, and I know how to use a search engine.]
29. Re:Bribery fines are funny by ThunderThor53 · 2011-03-20 19:52 · Score: 2
  
  Does SEC, or anyone in the U.S. for that matter, have jurisdiction over supposedly illegal acts outside of the country? Is it even SEC's business that officials abroad were bribed? Shouldn't the Chinese slap them with, say, imprisonment of responsible persons?
  Thanks to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, foreign bribery is the SEC's business.
30. Re:Bribery fines are funny by thoughtsatthemoment · 2011-03-20 19:58 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  It is probably close to impossible to find someone not corrupt in China.
  Isn't that too strong for a billion people. Actually I grew up in China but somehow in my childhood I had problems accepting gifts, as for some reason I didn't want other people's stuff. You might say there is a prevailing culture, but a billion people can develop a lot of varieties.
31. Re:Bribery fines are funny by DNS-and-BIND · 2011-03-20 20:07 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Wrong, wrong, wrong. Where do you get your news about China, the New York Times? China doesn't "like" bribes more than anywhere else. You can get things done by the rule of law.
  "One of the things I have always found troubling about Westerners doing business in emerging market countries is that they sometimes take an almost perverse pride in discussing payoffs to government officials. It is as though their having paid a bribe is a symbol of their international sophistication and insider knowledge. Yet, countless times when I am told of the bribe, I know the very same thing could almost certainly have been accomplished without a bribe."
  --Dan Harris, chinalawblog.com
  
  --
  Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
32. Re:Bribery fines are funny by CaptainZapp · 2011-03-20 21:00 · Score: 1
  
  Seriously, doesn't it seem like the US SEC just wanted in on the deal? I'm against bribery because living in a culture of bribery is miserable. If China wants to have a system of bribes necessary to get anything done, let them do so. I don't want the SEC to import that culture over here!
  So you consider stealing OK?
  Bribing officials is nothing else then stealing from the public coffers and thus the population.
  In addition it has the nasty tendency to rot away the core of a society.
  
  --
  ich bin der musikant
  mit taschenrechner in der hand
  kraftwerk
33. Re:Bribery fines are funny by JohnRoss1968 · 2011-03-20 21:49 · Score: 1
  
  So what your saying is if a foreign company sets up shop in the USA and bribes a US official it would be the job of the foreign companies government to deal with it.
  I hate big corporation as much as the next guy (probably a lot more) but if we want companies as accountable as an individual person is then it goes both ways.
  If I go to a foreign land and do something that is not illegal there I shouldn't have to worry about my own government when I get back. If I do something illegal there I should have to worry about that government throwing my ass into jail or prison.
34. Re:Bribery fines are funny by cocoajunkie · 2011-03-20 22:33 · Score: 1
  
  Well, I simply fail to understand why your comment was moderated to Insightful, it should be modded down, for the following reason. According to this line of thought, sexual tourism is just fine, provided the culture of the third world country you are visiting is not "advanced enough" to embrace our modern western values. Unfortunately, there are minimal ethical principles which should always be enacted, towards anyone. Not encouraging corruption, violation of basic human rights are among those. Considering your intervention "insightful" is justifying the same immoral cynicism that led to Abu Graib: provided they don't catch you and you can get away with it, if you have power, anything goes. Lack of ethics is never insightful, is just a form of short sightedness, failing to understand long term consequences of actions.
35. Re:Bribery fines are funny by maeka · 2011-03-20 22:44 · Score: 1
  
  The interstate may be "federal", but only in management. It is very common for a local jurisdiction to be responsible for maintenance (potholes, plowing, etc) and traffic law enforcement (including towing). There is not illegal and should not be.
36. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Hognoxious · 2011-03-20 23:43 · Score: 1
  
  But ... but ... that would be basing something on the ability to pay! That's exactly the same thing as communism! Why do you hate freedom so much?
  
  --
  Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
37. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Hognoxious · 2011-03-20 23:46 · Score: 1
  
  the USA is actually one of the least corrupt countries in the world
  You mean it appears to be.
  
  --
  Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
38. Re:Bribery fines are funny by SharpFang · 2011-03-21 00:27 · Score: 1
  
  I don't know about SEC and the likes but I'm pretty sure if you go to Thailand to bang a 10yo, and FBI gathers enough evidence that you did, you go to prison, no excuses.
  
  --
  45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
39. Re:Bribery fines are funny by gartogg · 2011-03-21 00:39 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Dissolve companies that are caught doing these things; force receivership and sell off the assets. The executives involved would be jailed, and 95% of the workers would continue wherever their particular business ended up.
  
  --
  I'm a concientious .sig objector.
40. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Tom · 2011-03-21 00:41 · Score: 1
  
  Does SEC, or anyone in the U.S. for that matter, have jurisdiction over supposedly illegal acts outside of the country?
  Yes, in this case there are international treaties in place. Corruption has been recognized as an international problem and thus the need for international laws became obvious - and was addressed. See http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/treaties/CAC/index.html
  
  --
  Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
41. Re:Bribery fines are funny by gartogg · 2011-03-21 00:43 · Score: 1
  
  Which doesn't mean that we are doing a good job; large governments breed corruption.
  I heard about this one guy, he's the skinniest morbidly obese person in the world! Only 400 pounds.
  
  --
  I'm a concientious .sig objector.
42. Re:Bribery fines are funny by JamesP · 2011-03-21 00:49 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, you can do things the proper way.
  And then it takes months to do something simple.
  Said that, it's good when they don't push for bribes. And I don't disagree with shooting people that ask for bribes.
  
  --
  how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
43. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Coeurderoy · 2011-03-21 00:55 · Score: 1
  
  First you would have to find a court that forces you to review resellers, except in very particular business (weapon sales for instance) no enterprise is responsible for the usage their customers do of theirs products.
  If you sell ethernet cable and somebody strangles his neighbors with it you will find that it's not your responsibility, and a judge would have to prove that the customer bragged on how much he liked your cables because their hight resilience facilitates strangling...
  If you sell hardware to resellers, a judge would have to prove that you knew they where guilty, and by the way if you sell e-government platforms to government who oppress their people and use it keep better track of political opponent and terrorize them, do you expect any law suite against you ?
44. Re:Bribery fines are funny by bluefoxlucid · 2011-03-21 01:39 · Score: 1
  
  Seriously, doesn't it seem like the US SEC just wanted in on the deal?
  Yes, it does. This is not the business of the US, it's an SEC money grab. China and Korea should be fining IBM; they've done nothing wrong in the US and the SEC just wants some fast cash.
  
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  Support my political activism on Patreon.
45. Re:Bribery fines are funny by bluefoxlucid · 2011-03-21 01:46 · Score: 1
  
  China is too full of people and they need to start emmigrating. America needs more sweet Chinese girls, too many asshole Americans here and plus they're cuter.
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
46. Re:Bribery fines are funny by bluefoxlucid · 2011-03-21 01:49 · Score: 1
  
  WTF are you talking about, Doc? We do have "those laws", and this article is about them being enforced.
  It's called the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. http://www.justice.gov/criminal/fraud/fcpa/
  More laws for shit not our jurisdiction. Just like how if you're 18 and you go to Europe and drink a beer, you can be extradited and the USA will criminally charge you for underage drinking. This is a huge problem for American foreign exchange students, who when caught drinking (legally in the country they're studying in) are sent back to America under legal penalty and lose their scholarships and are forced to pay back all the money they got for free sometimes etc.
  
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  Support my political activism on Patreon.
47. Re:Bribery fines are funny by hesaigo999ca · 2011-03-21 01:59 · Score: 1
  
  I love democracy , don't you.....the problem came from giving them money, in which now they are being charged with, and the courts will rule however, or settle out of court for another sum of money, ......it doesn't buy you happiness, but it sure makes the world go round.
48. Re:Bribery fines are funny by petermgreen · 2011-03-21 02:04 · Score: 1
  
  Personally I think punishing anyone who bribes is the wrong way to go about fixing things. In a highly corrupt society all it does it push people into a no-win situation, if you don't bribe then you are at a huge disadvantage (possibly unable to do business at all) if you do bribe then you are at risk of someone in power using that as an excuse to throw the book at you.
  
  --
  note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
49. Re:Bribery fines are funny by tibit · 2011-03-21 02:10 · Score: 1
  
  18 USC 2423 sec 105 specifically covers U.S. citizens and permanent residents engaging in sex tourism to minors, and it's the only reason why you're right. While I personally agree with the spirit of this law, I think it should be repealed. U.S. has no right to extraterritorial jurisdiction (with very limited exceptions, and this shouldn't be one), and this is exactly what happens here. You go somewhere where prostitution with people under age of 18 is legal, why the heck should U.S. laws prosecute you? Superior moral standards? WTF?! I'm sure there's plenty of U.S. allies and NATO members with ages of consent under 18. Poland would be one such example: 15 is the age of consent there. Heck, in Scotland the age of majority is 16.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
50. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Kyusaku+Natsume · 2011-03-21 02:26 · Score: 1
  
  Oriental girls are really cute, american girls too, but i think that the main difference is that in America being self centered is more accepted than in east asian countries, so east asian girls appear more cute and kind than their american counterparts.
  
  --
  Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
51. Re:Bribery fines are funny by bluefoxlucid · 2011-03-21 03:05 · Score: 1
  
  It's also the eyes and milky skin. American girls go for so much "beauty product" that their skin is tan, leathery, pockmarked by nasty aggressive soaps and constant tanning.
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
52. Re:Bribery fines are funny by rgviza · 2011-03-21 03:41 · Score: 1
  
  LOL my sentiments exactly. In typical US Government fashion they are applying the ethics of the US government to other governments. Only problem is in a lot of other regimes, bribes are a part of normal day to day business. No bribe = no business, end of story.
  
  --
  Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
53. Re:Bribery fines are funny by phantomfive · 2011-03-21 04:23 · Score: 1
  
  You're talking in high, abstract terms, as if things were absolutely good or absolutely evil. You have to look for the reason behind things. Why is bribery bad? Because it creates market distortions, inefficiencies, and in some cases unfairly favors the rich. We don't want that here.
  
  But in countries where bribery already exists, often the greater good is to bribe and provide services, or avoid a long, drawn out process (for example, by bribing police if you get pulled over).
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
54. Re:Bribery fines are funny by braindrainbahrain · 2011-03-21 04:25 · Score: 1
  
  The US already has laws on the books for this. Google the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.
  IANAL, but as I understand it, individuals could be criminally liable and face fines and/or years in prison. At the corporate level, fines can be imposed, but even more threatening is being disbarred from government contracts. For some companies, that can be a serious penalty indeed.
  I don't think it likely that that penalty will ever be imposed however, especially not to a large corporation like IBM.
55. Re:Bribery fines are funny by kramerd · 2011-03-21 04:40 · Score: 1
  
  So, your town has several towing companies located within it, but only one of them is legally allowed to tow vehicles within it...This would indicate that your town is the only town that has this policy, as the other towing companies must be towing nearby cities/towns.
  On the highway note, if my car breaks down on the highway near your town, I call AAA, they are going to tell me they can't tow my car?
  It sounds like you are a liar.
56. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Creepy · 2011-03-21 04:43 · Score: 1
  
  Yep, and that applies to the US, but IBM is a multinational company based in the US. Laws on bribery differ by country - for instance, in Germany until 1993 (I think) it was not only legal to bribe someone to get business, it was actually considered part of the business deal. It was so much a part of the culture that several companies continued the practice after it was banned causing major scandals. The European Union forbids bribery (and was the main reason for the change in Germany, as I recall), but in many Arabic and African countries it is still part of daily life.
  I imagine it is very difficult to compete if the competition is allowed to give bribes but your business is not.
57. Re:Bribery fines are funny by phantomfive · 2011-03-21 04:48 · Score: 1
  
  Bribing officials is nothing else then stealing from the public coffers and thus the population.
  Ya, and making a copy of a song is stealing the song, blah blah; really, words are just words, and people who make such bad metaphors by redefining words and expecting the redefined words to carry their point emotionally are silly. And by that I mean YOU.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
58. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Stenchwarrior · 2011-03-21 04:52 · Score: 1
  
  I thought it was their small hands that appealed to the American (or maybe males in general) ego and need to have a large penis.
  
  --
  Loading...
59. Re:Bribery fines are funny by MoeDrippins · 2011-03-21 05:57 · Score: 1
  
  > I know what you mean, but what else can you do other than levy a fine?
  The gov't and/or judicial arm has a very big carrot in future contracts they could easily withdraw for some period of time; say 5 years? Or, the corresponding stick of prison as someone else mentioned.
  I don't necessarily think either of these is practical, but there are other means available.
  
  --
  Before you design for reuse, make sure to design it for use.
60. Re:Bribery fines are funny by anyGould · 2011-03-21 06:59 · Score: 1
  
  Just like how if you're 18 and you go to Europe and drink a beer, you can be extradited and the USA will criminally charge you for underage drinking. This is a huge problem for American foreign exchange students, who when caught drinking (legally in the country they're studying in) are sent back to America under legal penalty and lose their scholarships and are forced to pay back all the money they got for free sometimes etc.
  Citation? Not saying it's impossible (I can see the theory), but I'd be unpleasantly surprised if the US is actually going through the paperwork to extradite for underage-in-the-US drinking.
  Heck, I always thought the reason we had so many American college tourists up here in Canada was *because* you could drink three years earlier...
61. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Jim_Maryland · 2011-03-21 07:27 · Score: 1
  
  but they can't throw anyone in jail for it
  Foreign Corrupt Practices Act
  
  US DOJ Fraud: Foreign Corrupt Practices Act
  
  Lay Persons Guide to FCPA
  
  Specific section from the PDF:
  
  The following criminal penalties may be imposed for violations of the FCPA's anti-bribery provisions: corporations and other business entities are subject to a fine of up to $2,000,000; officers, directors, stockholders, employees, and agents are subject to a fine of up to $100,000 and imprisonment for up to five years. Moreover, under the Alternative Fines Act, these fines may be actually quite higher -- the actual fine may be up to twice the benefit that the defendant sought to obtain by making the corrupt payment. You should also be aware that fines imposed on individuals may not be paid by their employer or principal.
  
  Additionally, companies can be prohibited from federal contracts, but this probably doesn't happen as often as it should (otherwise I'm sure companies would put in greater effort to avoid this).
62. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Danse · 2011-03-21 07:58 · Score: 1
  
  WTF are you talking about, Doc? We do have "those laws", and this article is about them being enforced.
  Now we just need penalties that are actually a deterrent to companies violating these laws. Why are the penalties capped? The benefits could be worth billions, yet the penalty is a paltry couple of million. Anyone that can perform simple math wouldn't blink at violating the law. Especially when it seems rather easy to do it in such a way that nobody gets the finger pointed at them and has to serve actual jail time.
  Although with a maximum of five years, it is probably worth the risk too. People risk a lot more time for less money all the time. Also, a $10,000 cap for a civil suit against a guy that probably got a half-million or more bonus for the results of the bribery anyway? What kind of joke is this? Why don't we get as tough on crimes dealing with billions as we do with selling a few bucks worth of drugs?
  
  --
  It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
63. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Tom · 2011-03-21 10:25 · Score: 1
  
  On the contrary, fines are the only solution to the problem we can apply without getting really heavy-handed.
  Why? Because it changes the equation for the worst offenders - corporations. A company bribes because it is financially advantageous for it to do so - bribing is easier (which reduces risk, which reduces costs), faster (which reduces costs) and often cheaper than the official channels. All of that boils down to $$$.
  Putting a fine on bribing - not on being bribed, but on bribing - adds $$$ (multiplied by the chance of getting caught) to the other side of the equation. If the fine and the chance of getting caught are high enough, bribing stops being the better option. Once that happens, a rational company will stop bribing.
  
  --
  Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
64. Re:Bribery fines are funny by nobodie · 2011-03-21 16:26 · Score: 1
  
  There is bribery and bribery
  When I lived in Thailand and my car registration or insurance or drivers license expired it was no big deal. When I got stopped in a random check (pretty much SOP when the policemen's car payments were due) all i did was pay about half the court fine directly to the cop and go on with a verbal warning to "Always wear your seatbelt!"
  But the same cops were running the drug delivery system that provided cheap heroin around the world through the golden triangle. They bought the car/truck/SUV with the drug money, got a bank loan for the difference (anything not made in Thailand--like what everybody wanted to own of course-- was subject to a 100% tariff, so the prices for the stuff the cops buy is insane and they used to make the down payment with drug money and the monthlies with the "working funds")
  Now, can you see where all this is going? a 100% tariff to protect domestic manufacturers creates a false demand for consumer products that are "desirable" which feeds the drug system run by "underground" government forces who are grossly underpaid to begin with in order to keep taxes down (wait, what about that 100% tariff? Oh that's not a tax on individuals, only on foreign interests) and they supplement their pitifully inadequate income which has been inflated to unreasonableness by drug income and, and, and
  The system feeds the whole damn mess, the cops are just as sucked in as the junkies, you are supporting it by buying the cheapest possible products (where is your HDD made? China or Thailand probably), by supporting drug laws to keep your community "clean" (no i don't want junkies running wild all over my shit either, but think about why they are what they are and who is responsible for the world they are running from) so you are responsible for this as much as the Thai or Chinese people and their government. Those of you who pretend that you can hide behind your border, both the government fallacy of nationalistic border and the individual fallacy of property line or privacy, are living in a dream. this world respects no borders, you are connected and responsible. Accept it, work with it or lie quivering in a heap under your aluminum hat because it is what it is.
  
  --
  Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
65. Re:Bribery fines are funny by CodeBuster · 2011-03-21 17:44 · Score: 1
  
  And I don't disagree with shooting people that ask for bribes.
  Bribes are rarely asked for directly. Instead, business is transacted faster or slower according to the amount of the bribe. If the business is transacted just about as fasts as it possibly can be, you know that the amount of your bribe was just about right. If your business takes forever to complete and you didn't offer a bribe, you know the reason for that too. There is a marketplace for bribes when different interests compete for the limited amount of time and resources a bottle-necked government agency or official has to offer. Who to bribe and in what amounts comes with experience or through hiring someone with that experience to advise you.
66. Re:Bribery fines are funny by CaptainZapp · 2011-03-21 19:52 · Score: 1
  
  How to win the price for dumbest strawman of the year: Congratulations!
  
  --
  ich bin der musikant
  mit taschenrechner in der hand
  kraftwerk
67. Re:Bribery fines are funny by phantomfive · 2011-03-21 20:00 · Score: 1
  
  At least I didn't win the prize for the dumbest man of the year, like you.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
68. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Doc+Ruby · 2011-03-21 23:12 · Score: 1
  
  Do you have a cited example of an American caught drinking in a foreign country where it's legal, but was extradited, charged in the USA and forced to repay their scholarship?
  
  --
  --
  make install -not war
69. Re:Bribery fines are funny by Doc+Ruby · 2011-03-21 23:15 · Score: 1
  
  I'm talking about enforcement:
  
  The only reason we do not have those laws and enforce them is that corporations own the legislators and regulators the people put in charge of these consequences. And that the corporations competing with each other accept the unfair competition, instead of using the legislators and regulators they own to make and enforce such laws properly.
  Can you give me a cited example of an American actually sent to jail under those laws? You're handy with a search engine and FPCA training, so let's see it in action. Because I've never heard of anyone going to jail.
  
  --
  --
  make install -not war
70. Re:Bribery fines are funny by RockDoctor · 2011-03-23 15:51 · Score: 1
  
  Are you hanging the briber, or the bribee?
  Or, BOTH?
  
  --
  Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
They just got caught is all. by pro151 · 2011-03-20 13:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

They all do it, IBM just got caught. :-)>
1. Re:They just got caught is all. by Nerdfest · 2011-03-20 13:32 · Score: 1
  
  I generally refer to them as BribeBM.
2. Re:They just got caught is all. by MobileTatsu-NJG · 2011-03-20 14:23 · Score: 1
  
  I generally refer to them as BribeBM.
  That actually sounds more like a laxitive. "Try new BribeMB with prescrption-strength analphlox!"
  
  --
  
  "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
3. Re:They just got caught is all. by pro151 · 2011-03-20 14:36 · Score: 1
  
  IBM shill detected.
  Who me? Boy you missed the mark with that witty remark there Skippy. I could give a shit if IBM tanked tomorrow. :-)
4. Re:They just got caught is all. by sjames · 2011-03-20 17:42 · Score: 1
  
  If that could actually work, we'd have bribed the hard-core fecal matter out of Congress long ago.
5. Re:They just got caught is all. by lennier1 · 2011-03-20 19:15 · Score: 1
  
  It's that kind of thing that got you crap like ACTA in the first place.
Not to get too political... by Barrinmw · 2011-03-20 13:18 · Score: 2, Interesting

But Republicans want to get rid of this law that makes it illegal for our businesses to bribe foreign officials.
1. Re:Not to get too political... by phantomfive · 2011-03-20 13:26 · Score: 1
  
  Just out of curiosity, do you consider that a good thing or a bad thing? I could see arguments either way.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
2. Re:Not to get too political... by Barrinmw · 2011-03-20 13:28 · Score: 1
  
  I see the US as a country of ideals, or at least it was founded that way, and bribery is wrong even if it is with foreign officials.
3. Re:Not to get too political... by phantomfive · 2011-03-20 13:46 · Score: 1
  
  Do you feel that way just because you are anti-republican, or would you have felt the same if some democrats were trying to oppose the law?
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
4. Re:Not to get too political... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-03-20 13:51 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Haw?
  Why is it then that U.S. tax dollars are going to buying homosexual child sex slaves for Afghan warlords in exchange for getting local police to do their jobs?
5. Re:Not to get too political... by MickyTheIdiot · 2011-03-20 13:52 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Well... why not. The Supreme Court already made it legal to bribe officials domestically.
6. Re:Not to get too political... by MickyTheIdiot · 2011-03-20 13:56 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I can't answer for the poster, but I can say YES. I am against what the republicans put forth most of the time because they are bad ideas or puppet proposals for their corporate buddies. The democrats do the exact same thing and when they do I'm opposed to it (**AA anyone?). Allowing open bribery is a bad thing... it isn't doing business and it's just another way for these large concentrations of power to step on other smaller businesses.
7. Re:Not to get too political... by jmd · 2011-03-20 13:56 · Score: 1
  
  US *was* a country of ideals might be a little more appropriate. Not too long ago when I was young.... we never .. ever...would have considered trading with a communist country. after all *we had principles*. now we just have capitalism running the show. it all comes out in the end.
8. Re:Not to get too political... by tnk1 · 2011-03-20 13:57 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Well, that does sound shitty, but bribery is pretty much how business is done in certain places. The US intelligence community took some slack a little while ago by providing information that Airbus was bribing officials to get contracts in foreign countries. The criticism was that this information would benefit US businesses who were, apparently, not bribing anyone. Go figure.
  For every bribery deal that gets caught, there are probably ten or more times that number go right through. Having a law that prevents bribery sounds nice and all, but when no one else seems to care, you start to wonder if there's really a point to it. If bribery is simply the cost of doing business, then so be it. Is it our job to keep civil servants of foreign governments honest? Presumably it is not, since no one really likes having the US show up in their country with their occupations and such.
  Corruption is a corrosive influence on any country, and a lot of them suffer from it. However, the changes that are needed to make that happen probably have to begin from within. I'm not against the law in this case, but I can see why some people in government look around at even our Western countries and wonder if everyone is on the same page.
9. Re:Not to get too political... by Charliemopps · 2011-03-20 13:59 · Score: 1
  
  If the law means that 21 years of bribing 2 major countries political officials leads to a $10 million dollar fine, then the law is a joke anyway. After they pay the fine they are likely to throw a party and toast each other for getting such a good deal.
  
  Willful and systemic disregard for the law by a business like this should lead to the business either being shut down by the feds, or fined so heavily that they have to file for bankruptcy. Who authorized the bribes? No jail time? Sad...
10. Re:Not to get too political... by Barrinmw · 2011-03-20 14:06 · Score: 2
  
  Since Obama has taken office, the US has collected over 1 billion dollars in fines for these violations.
11. Re:Not to get too political... by betterunixthanunix · 2011-03-20 14:09 · Score: 2
  
  Keep in mind that in some countries, bribery is standard practice and failing to bribe would make a business less competitive. If those countries wish to end the practice, they should make it illegal. Why should US law cover actions taken abroad? Why should the US be pushing our set of ethics on other people (yet again)?
  
  --
  Palm trees and 8
12. Re:Not to get too political... by Barrinmw · 2011-03-20 14:10 · Score: 1
  
  No, I am against it because bribery is wrong. I have problems with Democrats and Republicans, the only difference is, there are fewer Republicans I can trust to take care of this country than Democrats. An example of a Republican I can semi-trust is Murkowski since here moderation in the last election.
13. Re:Not to get too political... by Solandri · 2011-03-20 14:14 · Score: 2
  
  You have to understand that bribery is more or less the expected norm in Asian business. Japan was the first to get away from it but I suspect it still goes on in the form of "gifts" and favors. South Korea started to crack down on it after the Sampoong department store collapse. Incredibly, despite causing over 500 deaths, that in itself probably wasn't enough to force the change in culture. It was one of a spate of building and bridge collapses within a span of a few years, whose cumulative effect was to finally turn public sentiment against the culture of bribery and corruption in business and government. The Chinese government is smart enough to recognize that it's a long-term millstone around the neck of their economic development, and has been cracking down on it. But I suspect at the local level it's still very much entrenched. Basically, if you couldn't/can't bribe, you can't do business, and you might as well pack up your bags and leave the country.
  
  So it's not just a matter of right vs. wrong. There are different standards of normal behavior involved in the debate as well. The same goes true for corporate espionage. In the West it's frowned upon and any company who fired you for refusing to do it would be slapped by a wrongful termination lawsuit. In the East, it's pretty much expected. If you're asked to do it and refuse, you'll probably be fired.
14. Re:Not to get too political... by mevets · 2011-03-20 14:22 · Score: 1
  
  At some point everyone accepts bellwethers. I don't have Republicans or Democrats to lean on, but there are many others.
  If Reverend Phelps states something, I don't have to think much to disagree - history has shown we don't have much in common, and most of what he advocates, I disagree with.
  Closer to home, the current PM of Canada has a handy habit of coming out on the wrong side of pretty much everything. It saves time, I don't have to read much to know what is right.
  I don't think you can blame him if he comes down on the anti-Republican side - they have committed so many heinous crimes from treason to torture, that it is a safe bet to just oppose them. They tend to be wrong.
15. Re:Not to get too political... by Eil · 2011-03-20 14:38 · Score: 1
  
  I put it to you: when is bribery ever a good thing?
  There is no such thing as a good bribe because the person who accepts the bribe always had the option of acting (or not acting) for free out of some sense of moral or ethical responsibility. (At which point it ceases to be a bribe.) A bribe offer says, "I know you're supposed to do X, but I want to secretly pay you to do Y instead." Bribery is by definition a form of corruption.
16. Re:Not to get too political... by AmberBlackCat · 2011-03-20 14:43 · Score: 1
  
  Well... why not. The Supreme Court already made it legal to bribe officials domestically.
  I bet they got bribed to do it.
17. Re:Not to get too political... by donaggie03 · 2011-03-20 15:00 · Score: 1
  
  I put it to you: (just playing devil's advocate here) . . What if sometimes the bribe offer says "you know you are supposed to do X, and I know you are supposed to do X, but you are about to do Y because you are a greedy shit fuck. I want to secretly pay you, and make it worth your while, to do X instead."
  
  --
  Three days from now?? Thats tomorrow!! ~Peter Griffin
18. Re:Not to get too political... by WrongSizeGlass · 2011-03-20 15:22 · Score: 1
  
  I put it to you: when is bribery ever a good thing?
  When you're on the receiving end of the bribe. Duh.
19. Re:Not to get too political... by 517714 · 2011-03-20 15:47 · Score: 1
  
  We are not pushing our ethics, a number of other countries, representing 80% of the world's trade, see bribery as a problem as well. The US signed a treaty with 33 other countries of the OECD and has "arrangements" with others covering bribery. Our statutes covering this are in International Anti-Bribery Act of 1998 Fines of up to $100,000 and terms of up to 5 years are applicable to individuals found guilty of bribery of officials. If the company you work for does international business your sales department has probably been trained in the personal and corporate consequences of violations.
  They generally finish with the corporation before they go after the individuals, hopefully we will be hearing about them in a few years.
  
  --
  The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
20. Re:Not to get too political... by Barrinmw · 2011-03-20 15:55 · Score: 2
  
  Its not problem, this is from the DoJ. http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/January/11-crm-085.html
21. Re:Not to get too political... by snkiz · 2011-03-20 16:01 · Score: 1
  
  That's kind of the definition of ethics isn't it? that you stand by them even when it gets hard or your not forced to.
22. Re:Not to get too political... by couchslug · 2011-03-20 16:13 · Score: 1
  
  International business is war. Why should our side have rules when the enemy doesn't?
  
  --
  "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
23. Re:Not to get too political... by Barrinmw · 2011-03-20 16:45 · Score: 1
  
  ...and why should we have the Geneva conventions when the other side doesn't. The US should strap bombs to children and send them to the enemy.
24. Re:Not to get too political... by phantomfive · 2011-03-20 16:47 · Score: 1
  
  Eh, there are lots of cases, for example, I know someone who bribed her daughter if she would not get pregnant in high school. Turned out to be a motivating factor in her not getting pregnant, and her life was measurably better as a result.
  
  Bribery is not a good thing, but in some countries, there is no other way to get things done other than bribery. Then for the bribe giver it is not a question of good or bad, but rather whether you want to get anything done or not. Your court requests could be stuck in a pile of papers for years because no one wants to go through them without getting paid. IBM choosing not to pay the bribe will not change things in the foreign country, and things will not get done. So it's a practical matter.
  
  On the other hand, if you US officials are accepting bribes, they should be kicked to the street as quick as possible. Frankly that should be true anywhere, but I'm not about to launch an invasion to force another country to improve their bureaucracy.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
25. Re:Not to get too political... by phantomfive · 2011-03-20 16:50 · Score: 1
  
  I don't think you can blame him if he comes down on the anti-Republican side - they have committed so many heinous crimes from treason to torture, that it is a safe bet to just oppose them. They tend to be wrong.
  Politicians tend to be wrong; by this statement you merely show your bias, probably the bias of your news sources as well.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
26. Re:Not to get too political... by Sir_Lewk · 2011-03-20 16:50 · Score: 1
  
  Why include homosexual in that? How is it at all relevant? I'm pretty sure "child sex slaves" should stands on it's own as utterly despicable without having to resort to homophobia as well.
  
  --
  "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
27. Re:Not to get too political... by phantomfive · 2011-03-20 16:55 · Score: 1
  
  Hasn't Murkowski had corruption issues?
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
28. Re:Not to get too political... by Archangel+Michael · 2011-03-20 17:37 · Score: 1
  
  IBM is a multinational. They aren't in "our country" and have no allegiance to it.
  
  --
  Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
29. Re:Not to get too political... by NeutronCowboy · 2011-03-20 18:02 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Bribes are an artificial barrier to entry into a market. As a result, they are by definition a drag on the efficiency of a market. Furthermore, because of how bribes work, barriers to entry can be made arbitrarily high, resulting in the richest players in a market being able to extract monopoly rents without having to compete for customers.
  You want me to go over basic free market theory again? I can't believe there's even a question why bribes are a bad idea. Next, someone will ask whether ice is cold, and whether water should be wet.
  
  --
  Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
30. Re:Not to get too political... by phantomfive · 2011-03-20 18:13 · Score: 1
  
  It's not about whether bribes are good or bad. That's not a question. The question is whether it's good or bad for congress to try to stop American companies from making bribes in foreign countries; in countries where the only way to do anything is with bribes. If IBM complied with this (I fully expect they will continue to bribe), they would not be able to do business in many countries. Essentially we would be ceding the entire market to Europe or other countries, and would do nothing to change the culture of bribery.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
31. Re:Not to get too political... by arkenian · 2011-03-20 20:26 · Score: 1
  
  oddly enough, under US law, this is sometimes legal. The anti-bribery law has a specific exception for (foreign) places where a bribe is required to make a public official do their actual jobs. I.e. bribing a police officer to let you off a ticket is illegal. Bribing a police officer to investigate and arrest the guys vandalizing your warehouse every night may not be, depending on the circumstances.
32. Re:Not to get too political... by JohnRoss1968 · 2011-03-20 22:07 · Score: 1
  
  Because it is part of the story. The story is that US Tax payer's money is going to purchase young BOYS for the male warlords. There is no instance of the buying of young GIRLS in the story. Thus the homosexual remark.
  I personally don't have anything against gays.I have had gay roommates in the past. It doesn't bother me a bit. I have a simple rule. If I am not fucking someone, then it is none of my business who they are fucking. (since I'm not gay I'm not having sex with men, therefor who there are having sex with is none of my business.
  2 exceptions to that
  1. If they are family then that overrides the rule if it is in their best interest.
  2.Sex between 2 or more consenting adults is fine..the key words being Consenting, and adults. (and if you have to be told that Baaaaa means no, I wont even talk to you.)
33. Re:Not to get too political... by nosferatu1001 · 2011-03-20 22:12 · Score: 1
  
  Except most Eurozone countries have the same laws regarding overseas bribery. Certainly the UK does (ref BAE)
  It is good for Congress to act to reduce corruption levels. If you end up with all major powers not doing the whole corruption and bribery game, you end up either forcing the countries to change (i.e., they want the business still, so have to accept not getting bribes) or you reduce the distorting, drag effcect those countries have on the world markets by reducing their international influence
  Win win, eitgher way.
34. Re:Not to get too political... by dargaud · 2011-03-20 23:12 · Score: 1
  
  But Republicans want to get rid of this law that makes it illegal for our businesses to bribe foreign officials.
  So why do they accept bribes from lobbyists in the form of campaign donations ?
  
  --
  Non-Linux Penguins ?
35. Re:Not to get too political... by martyros · 2011-03-20 23:19 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, and everyone in the US thought that was perfectly normal.
  This is a classic weakness of Western thinking: overclassification (the entire country is one entity, not a gigantic group of different people with different values), and black-and-white thinking (a country is either "good" or "bad"). The fact is that the US, as a whole is not as good as it needs to be. It is not consistently good. There are a lot of bad people, and there are certainly bad elements of the culture. But that doesn't change the fact that ideals are still very important to many Americans. Americans didn't all vote to buy homosexual child sex slaves; in fact, the very idea horrifies most people, including the people in the government who hired the company responsible for it.
  Your kind of thinking basically guarantees things cannot get better. They can only get better if we stick with ideals, insist that the ideals are valid, and that they be applied in all cases. Saying, "Well, a handful of poorly-supervised contractors broke the ideals here, so why should we apply the ideals anywhere" is a sure-fire way to bring chaos and anarchy.
  
  --
  TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
36. Re:Not to get too political... by temcat · 2011-03-20 23:58 · Score: 1
  
  This is not the whole picture. Bribes can also remove artificial barriers to entry into a market, such as customs levies etc. We are talking about *free market*, aren't we?
37. Re:Not to get too political... by dkleinsc · 2011-03-21 00:35 · Score: 1
  
  Well... why not. The Supreme Court already made it legal to bribe officials domestically.
  I bet they got bribed to do it.
  Very likely, actually, particularly in the case of Clarence Thomas
  
  --
  I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
38. Re:Not to get too political... by Tom · 2011-03-21 00:39 · Score: 1
  
  Is it our job to keep civil servants of foreign governments honest?
  No if you have no dealing with them.
  Yes if you do.
  
  Corruption is a corrosive influence on any country, and a lot of them suffer from it. However, the changes that are needed to make that happen probably have to begin from within. I'm not against the law in this case, but I can see why some people in government look around at even our Western countries and wonder if everyone is on the same page.
  That is a very simplistic world view. That corruption does not come out of nothing. Sure, in some countries tips to people aside from waiters and taxi drivers are more common than in others, but the massive corruption we have today is in part due to foreign capital and the huge difference in income - what is a pittance for some manager setting up a new plant in a cheap-labor country is a years' wage for the official doing the paperwork. You can't claim these things are entirely seperate matters.
  
  --
  Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
39. Re:Not to get too political... by Sir_Lewk · 2011-03-21 02:20 · Score: 1
  
  It is highly doubtful that they went out of their way to enslave children who self-identified as homosexual. If the intent is just to be more descriptive, simply using the word "male" would be far more accurate.
  
  --
  "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
40. Re:Not to get too political... by Infiniti2000 · 2011-03-21 02:38 · Score: 1
  
  Because it is part of the story. The story is that US Tax payer's money is going to purchase young BOYS for the male warlords. There is no instance of the buying of young GIRLS in the story. Thus the homosexual remark.
  In looking through the story I saw nothing that says that the boys are homosexuals. They seem to simply be sold and raped as slaves. In fact, I don't really see a lot of evidence that the 'masters' are really homosexuals. Even some of them do it simply as a means to 'be competitive' or perhaps not get killed themselves. I guess the really high-level ones might be homosexual, but the one page I was able to read didn't talk about it that much.
41. Re:Not to get too political... by NeutronCowboy · 2011-03-21 03:32 · Score: 1
  
  2 reasons, one abstract, one practical.
  Abstract: arguing that something is bad and should not be done is a lot harder when you engage in the same behavior.
  Practical: once an organization engages in an illegal behavior in one place, it becomes nearly impossible to prevent that behavior from leaking over into other places. Condoning bribing in foreign countries pretty much guarantees that bribes will be paid locally, just through foreign intermediaries.
  And I also challenge your assertion that there are many countries with useful markets where everything gets done with bribes. All societies understand that flat out bribes are only useful for people able to afford them, and there are prohibitions on them in one way or another. Some neato exceptions: Somalia, Zimbabwe - countries where the rule of law has broken down, and where even local people know that the place is a shithole.
  
  --
  Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
42. Re:Not to get too political... by phantomfive · 2011-03-21 04:45 · Score: 1
  
  I think you underestimate the level of corruption in many countries. Zimbabwe is only one step below China.
  
  Seriously though, imagine you are in Thailand, and a policeman pulls you over. You have a choice between going through a long, corrupt, court process, possibly with time in jail or being prevented from leaving the country, or bribing the policeman and getting it over with right there (while saving money). Which would you do? And in that case, it's not even a matter of necessity, it's a matter of making the process shorter.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
43. Re:Not to get too political... by metrometro · 2011-03-21 06:50 · Score: 1
  
  > bribery is pretty much how business is done in certain places.
  At some firms, yes. At other firms, no. See, once a firm gets a name for being a paying firm, they are pretty much locked into that mode of operation. However, if a firm puts everyone on notice that they do not pay, ever, then pretty soon people stop asking. Business still gets done. Permits still get acquired. And along the way, institutions become a little more just.
  So, the question for places like the SEC is, how do we reward the firms that do not pay and encourage more places to join them? Fines like this are a part of that.
Why is this illegal? by elucido · 2011-03-20 13:21 · Score: 1

I thought bribing foreign officials was a good thing?
1. Re:Why is this illegal? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-03-20 13:30 · Score: 1
  
  I thought bribing foreign officials was a good thing?
  Not for U.S. persons and companies. It's a violation of federal law:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act
2. Re:Why is this illegal? by Lord_of_the_nerf · 2011-03-20 13:36 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  What if we called it 'lobbying'?
3. Re:Why is this illegal? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-03-20 14:04 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  That only works domestically.
4. Re:Why is this illegal? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-03-20 14:18 · Score: 1
  
  If the foreign officials know that US companies are allowed to bribe them, they'll demand it.
  - after reviewing your proposal, we have discovered that this deal cannot be approved, it does not meet our standards for commerce
  - huh, why didn't you mention this before? what standards doesn't it meet?
  - multiple standards. Too many to discuss, the matter is seen to be hopeless.
  - hmm.... suppose we gave you an extra discount?
  - it would have to be in the form of American dollars up front, but not officially as part of the deal. $300K and I will see if we can obtain the necessary waivers.
5. Re:Why is this illegal? by c0lo · 2011-03-20 14:51 · Score: 1
  
  I thought bribing foreign officials was a good thing?
  Only if you think that paying off a blackmailer is a good thing. On short term, maybe. On longer term, you encourage a culture of corruption which will make your future dealing be increasingly based of paying bribes. And guess what... the bribes will always go up.
  
  --
  Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
6. Re:Why is this illegal? by JohnRoss1968 · 2011-03-20 22:14 · Score: 1
  
  So your saying its like AT&Ts pricing plans?
7. Re:Why is this illegal? by Fibe-Piper · 2011-03-21 04:37 · Score: 1
  
  I agree! While we're at it, what if we call cigarette's "health sticks"? I mean as long as we don't say specifically which direction your health will take after using our products.
  
  --
  I went to battle M.C. Escher, but drew a blank.
We should get rid of that law. by elucido · 2011-03-20 13:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

Why shouldn't corporations be able to do publicly what they do privately?
1. Re:We should get rid of that law. by Barrinmw · 2011-03-20 13:26 · Score: 2
  
  Because of Johnny Mnemonic.
I have mod points by Anonymous Coward · 2011-03-20 13:32 · Score: 5, Funny

So if anyone wants some +1 Insightfuls, well...let's see if we can work out an "agreement."
1. Re:I have mod points by mywhitewolf · 2011-03-20 14:19 · Score: 1
  
  This isn't really bribery because I can't be expected to earn my own karma for my own slash dot moderation campaign. and it doesn't give me an unfair advantage because all other Slashdot moderators are entitled to take contributions from lobbyists too.
2. Re:I have mod points by An+anonymous+Frank · 2011-03-21 20:15 · Score: 1
  
  somewhat offtopic, but, I used to get 5 mods points every few days, without fail.
  now, perhaps at least since the new look/interface, no more.
  (perhaps I should dig into the options and see what I can find.)
the US Gov is jealous by FudRucker · 2011-03-20 13:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

a fine is just a bribe in reverse...

--
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
Maybe ... by arielCo · 2011-03-20 13:44 · Score: 4, Informative

Just maybe, that's the normal way to do business with governments in those parts?
Just sayin', based on my experience living in Latin America. Most of the time government offices are so sluggish (sometimes deliberately so), that you HAVE to grease the wheels if you want things done before you lose serious revenue. Clearing customs, currency exchange (where the government controls it), assorted permits... most new providers are shocked to learn how much these things can take.

--
This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.
1. Re:Maybe ... by demonlapin · 2011-03-20 13:50 · Score: 2
  
  That's what I thought of the first time I heard of this law. It seems somewhat odd that it can be a violation of US law to do something in another country.
2. Re:Maybe ... by mc6809e · 2011-03-20 14:27 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Just maybe, that's the normal way to do business with governments in those parts?
  Just sayin', based on my experience living in Latin America. Most of the time government offices are so sluggish (sometimes deliberately so), that you HAVE to grease the wheels if you want things done before you lose serious revenue. Clearing customs, currency exchange (where the government controls it), assorted permits... most new providers are shocked to learn how much these things can take.
  Yep. And more often than not, a "bribe" is really an extortion payment, especially if you're an American.
  It's not that foreign officials are anti-American, they just know who can afford to pay.
  Next it will be the Chinese that get forced to pay these "bribes".
3. Re:Maybe ... by c0lo · 2011-03-20 14:58 · Score: 1
  
  Just sayin', based on my experience living in Latin America.
  And do you like it?
  Assuming you would be willing to bribe someone to get something done, would you be happy of somebody from a foreign country just overbidding your bribe by a higher one? (even if, say, what the foreign party will sell to you and your family is 2-3 times as expensive?)
  
  --
  Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
4. Re:Maybe ... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-03-20 15:30 · Score: 1
  
  An American friend of mine wanted to cut and set diamonds using Chinese. Given that his labor costs were 1/10th of what they would be in the USA, his rent was 1/8th, and his utilities were about 1/8th as well, he couldn't help but make money even when his insurance rates doubled to take into account offshoring about US$1 million in rough stones. It was great until his local rep asked for some money to go party with a Chinese official. When my friend refused, his business stopped getting electricity. When he started using a generator to get around that, they cut off his water. When he had a well drilled and installed the required purification system, he found no one still willing to deliver him fuel. He was kind of surprised the official didn't just tell the workers to just stop showing up "or else." He finally relented and asked what the party was going to cost him at that point. He repatriated the stones and now has a shop set up near Houston, because it was cheaper.
5. Re:Maybe ... by demonlapin · 2011-03-20 15:33 · Score: 1
  
  Territorial jurisdiction matters. I can't be prosecuted in California courts for a crime committed in Maine. Likewise, things that I do outside the US shouldn't be under US law.
6. Re:Maybe ... by Nyder · 2011-03-20 17:39 · Score: 1
  
  Just maybe, that's the normal way to do business with governments in those parts?
  Just sayin', based on my experience living in Latin America. Most of the time government offices are so sluggish (sometimes deliberately so), that you HAVE to grease the wheels if you want things done before you lose serious revenue. Clearing customs, currency exchange (where the government controls it), assorted permits... most new providers are shocked to learn how much these things can take.
  Yep. And more often than not, a "bribe" is really an extortion payment, especially if you're an American.
  It's not that foreign officials are anti-American, they just know who can afford to pay.
  Next it will be the Chinese that get forced to pay these "bribes".
  Bribes are "taxes". That's the whole problem here. If they, from the get go, kept saying they were paying local 'taxes', no one would bat an eyelash.
  
  --
  Be seeing you...
7. Re:Maybe ... by arielCo · 2011-03-20 18:19 · Score: 1
  
  And do you like it?
  Long answer: Hell, no
  
  Assuming you would be willing to bribe someone to get something done, would you be happy of somebody from a foreign country just overbidding your bribe by a higher one? (even if, say, what the foreign party will sell to you and your family is 2-3 times as expensive?)
  Director's Cut: That's exactly the true source of the losses caused by corruption, not the amount overcharged to bribe corrupt officials. Hopefully you didn't assume that describing a situation somehow implies acceptance. BTW, as others have said, corruption is not some disease brought by foreigners. All you need is underpaid officials handling matters that are valuable to someone else, be it your driver's license or a juicy construction contract.
  
  --
  This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.
8. Re:Maybe ... by c0lo · 2011-03-20 19:00 · Score: 1
  
  Hopefully you didn't assume that describing a situation somehow implies acceptance
  Wasn't born yesterday. Fortunate for the dialog, not sure if so fortunate for me.
  
  BTW, as others have said, corruption is not some disease brought by foreigners.
  Almost agreed, with the amendment that if even the foreigners succumbs to infection, the illness has little chances to be cured (other than by bloody revolutions).
  Also as a reserve to your statement, there's nothing (at least, theoretically) to exclude situations in which the foreigners actually initiating the corruption (or, rather, fueling it from an almost unobservable/petty level to a societal infection).
  
  All you need is underpaid officials handling matters that are valuable to someone else
  While underpaid officials is one of the ways in which corruption creeps in, unfortunately there are also other motivations that may lead to corruption. Anyway, need two to tango.
  
  --
  Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
9. Re:Maybe ... by JohnRoss1968 · 2011-03-20 22:18 · Score: 1
  
  OK but by that logic...if you go to work for a company in say knoxville tn, that is owned by a foreign company from China. If you were to do something that is illegal in china, then china can charge you with a crime.
10. Re:Maybe ... by Tom · 2011-03-21 00:35 · Score: 1
  
  Normal - yes.
  Acceptable - no.
  That is why laws against corruption are enforced, and why there is an international treaty (one the US signed, for a change) that requires enforcement against companies even if the crime happened in another country.
  The problem is that there are other - legal, official - ways to get your paperwork done. They just aren't as convenient. But it is the little guys who usually can not afford to go them, the big guys can and should. IBM can hire a team of lawyers to get that delayed paperwork forced through. Doing so would help a lot to make corruption less normal and give the little guys a signal that it's not the only way. But it's slightly more expensive, slightly more risky, and might take a short while longer.
  So, thanks to our capitalism-fanatism that almost forces large companies to do whatever is economically advantageous, no matter what other side-effects it has, that is the route that IBM - and let's be honest, pretty much every other major corporation - will go.
  
  --
  Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Question by Superdarion · 2011-03-20 13:47 · Score: 1

Payments from IBM subsidiaries to South Korean officials in the form of gifts, travel and entertainment
Isn't this how business is handled in the private sector?
1. Re:Question by Nursie · 2011-03-20 14:37 · Score: 1
  
  I think the answer there is "not any more".
  it used to be, in the time before people became interested in competition law, ethics in business and not supporting corrupt governments overseas.
  But now we apparently care about all those things. IMHO that is a very good thing.
2. Re:Question by ShanghaiBill · 2011-03-20 15:09 · Score: 2
  
  Isn't this how business is handled in the private sector?
  Not where I work. Anyone who accepts a gift from a vendor or customer, and fails to report it promptly, is risking getting fired.
  Our CFO noticed our shipping costs had gone up, so did an investigation. She found out that more packages were shipping DHL (high rates, crappy service), because the DHL sales rep was buying pizza for the warehouse staff several times a month. The warehouse manager lost his job, and we no longer use DHL at all.
Proportions? by Haedrian · 2011-03-20 13:49 · Score: 4, Insightful

Woah, a 10M dollar fine...
Lets see what Wikipedia says about IBM..
Net income US$14.833 billion (2010)
Yeah, that 10M fine will sure show them!
If they really wanted a punishment, they should give IBM's board community service or something. That'd be an interesting way of doing things. Not denying the CEO's paperboy a large tip this week.
1. Re:Proportions? by MickyTheIdiot · 2011-03-20 13:58 · Score: 1
  
  but but but but but the CEO knew NOTHING about what was going on!
  He EARNS that multi-million dollar salary, but he knows NOTHING about what is going on!
2. Re:Proportions? by Haedrian · 2011-03-20 18:57 · Score: 1
  
  i don't think any company on earth looks at a ten M I L L I O N dolar fine lightly, regardless if you make 14 bill a year thats still a big fine
  Your rounding down had more effect on their net profits than what is essentially a rounding error.
  I'm sure they made more than 10 mill from the deals anyway. They still came on top
3. Re:Proportions? by Tom · 2011-03-21 00:29 · Score: 1
  
  Some judges know that. There's a famous work law case here in Germany, where the employer, a major company, refused any and all cooperation with the works council, even though such cooperation is at least to some degree, required by law.
  The judge in that case ordered the entire board taken into custody until they at least initiated talks with the workers. Legend has it that a meeting was scheduled within a few hours.
  
  --
  Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
4. Re:Proportions? by DarthVain · 2011-03-21 03:10 · Score: 1
  
  Ironically the 10M that was paid out came out of the Intel back account marked "Bribe Fund"....
  A spokesman was quoted as saying "Just the price of doing business..."
5. Re:Proportions? by weeboo0104 · 2011-03-21 04:00 · Score: 1
  
  You don't know the half of how trivial that payment is.
  Speaking from first-hand experience with the Danieli v. IBM overtime lawsuit , IBM settled that lawsuit for $7.5 Million. The total amount of time it took them to agree to that amount once the lawyers were all together? 2-3 hours. That's right. For the privilige of claiming no wrong doing, they paid $7.5 Million.
  The same bribery thing happened in the late 90's in Argentina. A couple of IBM South America execs were facing prison time over that one. Why isn't there jail time this time around?
  
  --
  It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
That's exactly why not to. by khasim · 2011-03-20 13:51 · Score: 3, Insightful

Once corruption is legitimized, those conditions become the norm.
Look at all the countries with the lowest standard of living. You'll see that their governments are based upon bribes and favors.
The money is transfered from public works to private individuals and the entire country suffers.
1. Re:That's exactly why not to. by arielCo · 2011-03-20 14:15 · Score: 1
  
  The money is transfered from public works to private individuals and the entire country suffers.
  Your observation about correlation seems accurate. But, even though bribes are factored in the quoted price, the amount of money pilfered is peanuts in comparison to the losses due to inefficiency, abandoned projects, deliverables that were left to rot/obsolescence, white elephants, etc.
  That's why they call it "corruption" - it rots the system from the inside.
  
  --
  This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.
2. Re:That's exactly why not to. by arielCo · 2011-03-20 14:17 · Score: 1
  
  But then again, corps are mostly known/accepted as be amoral little critters with a positive tropism for profit.
  
  --
  This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.
3. Re:That's exactly why not to. by Solandri · 2011-03-20 14:51 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Once corruption is legitimized, those conditions become the norm.
  You're somehow inferring that bribery by foreign corporations is what's causing the corruption and leading to it becoming the norm. That's (usually) not true. In most of these countries, bribery and graft were already the norm before the foreign business even got there. In that situation, a country has two ideological choices:
  
  A) Isoluation and refusal to do business. You basically tell the country to screw off and prohibit any of your corporations from doing any business in that country. That you won't do business with it until it cleans up its act first. Then you sit and wait, and hope the people of the country will on their own spontaneously revolt, clean up government and business, and establish a system more compatible with your moral ideology. This is the approach the U.S. is taking with Cuba.
  
  B) Acceptance of the different standards. You recognize that things are done differently there than here, and continue to conduct business playing by their rules. You do this with the long-term hope that the extra economic velocity generated by your business will lead to a thriving middle class, which will gain enough economic and socio-political clout that they're able to bend their own government into cleaning up its act. A peasant state where 95% of the wealth is controlled by 1% of the population doesn't need to listen to what 99% of its population says. But a middle class of 50% of the population controling 40% of the wealth is a force to be reckoned with. This is the approach the U.S. is taking with China.
  
  I won't argue which method is better. I'm not even sure myself. I will say this though: Uncompromising ideology makes a good goal towards which you want to steer society. But it frequently makes for a lousy method with which to steer society. If you say corruption is bad so you should never do anything which encourage it, you just end up going out of business and your opinion doesn't matter anymore. It's better to compromise, allow a little corruption, gain more power and influence, then use that power to try to steer things for the better.
4. Re:That's exactly why not to. by c0lo · 2011-03-20 15:07 · Score: 1
  
  The money is transfered from public works to private individuals and the entire country suffers.
  You mean money confiscated from productive members of society for distribution to the shiftless and lazy is returned to those who actually earned it, rather than waiting for the nanny state to give them goods for free, don't you, comrade ...
  How insightful you are today!!!
  Everybody knows that the govt bureaucrat who won't do a thing for you (even if you are entitled to) unless you pay "his private tax" is working very hard to earn his money, takes enormous risks just to keep the society going towards the greater good. Such individuals are actually the spine of the society, without them everybody will just lazily bake themselves in the sun, paid from the dole.
  
  --
  Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
5. Re:That's exactly why not to. by pclminion · 2011-03-20 16:06 · Score: 1
  
  Once corruption is legitimized, those conditions become the norm.
  Those conditions have always been the norm. What you see in the world is not a descent into corruption, but an attempt to ascend out of it. Not everyone is caught up yet. Unless you're willing to say that you'll do no business with 90% of the world, this is how it goes.
  I have to sign off on company policies on an annual basis. One of the policies I sign off on is a "no bribery" policy, but it has a fairly fat exception for nations where bribery is an expected and necessary part of doing business. The alternative is to not do business there.
6. Re:That's exactly why not to. by hackingbear · 2011-03-20 17:18 · Score: 1
  
  Unfortunately, you have to pay one way or the others. Look at some of the cleanest governments in the world -- Singapore and Hong Kong; public servants are given free condos for life; a nice condo there easily worth a million USD or more, thanks to the governments' monopolistic control of land. In the US, we pay government officials with handsome pension benefits; we also make most of that legal by calling the acts "political donation". Money buys cleanness, regardless of political system; at the end, public serving jobs are career and not volunteer works. China is currently trying to clean up ultimately by raising the salary and retirement benefits of public servants too; if they succeed, they will end up being like us -- with trillions in public debts.
7. Re:That's exactly why not to. by crossmr · 2011-03-20 17:59 · Score: 1
  
  Look at all the countries with the lowest standard of living. You'll see that their governments are based upon bribes and favors.
  And that happens in a lot of countries where the standard of living is supposedly higher.
8. Re:That's exactly why not to. by couchslug · 2011-03-20 18:15 · Score: 1
  
  That's not a reason not to bribe foreign corrupt countries where that's normal, it's a reason to avoid that situation at home.
  The world is a bad place where virtue has no rewards.
  
  --
  "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
9. Re:That's exactly why not to. by taucross · 2011-03-20 19:30 · Score: 1
  
  Corruption and bribery are not synonyms. What is business at its heart except bribery?
  Bribery has become commonplace with the advent of the 'service fee'. Tell me, what is the difference between a service fee and a bribe? The main difference is that a service fee is legitimised and generally subject to a business process. Though this might give you the impression that it creates a fair system, it doesn't really. Golf course deals happen all the time, it's the way of the world.
  I live in Australia where everything has a service fee and where service fees are generally waived when a business has a good relationship with a customer. Our standard of living is quite decent considering everything is so expensive.
  Sure, when a government employee is stealing from the people to pad the pockets of private corporations, it's corrupt and should be dealt with accordingly. But a lot of the time the line between corruption, bribery, and business is all too blurry.
  As we say in finance: Any sufficently advanced scam is indistinguishable from business.
  
  --
  "In the absence of the ability to establish the attribute of truth they tried to establish the noble attributes."
10. Re:That's exactly why not to. by pclminion · 2011-03-21 04:36 · Score: 1
  
  IBMers also have to sign off on company policies on an annual basis. One of the policies they sign off on is a "no bribery" policy, but... there are no exceptions.
  I really doubt that their policies are significantly different. Here's the relevant text of the policy I mentioned:
  This policy does not prohibit properly made and recorded facilitating payments. Sometimes the Company may be required to make facilitating or expediting payments to a low level government official or employee in some countries other than the United States to expedite or secure the performance of routine governmental action by the government official or employee. Such facilitating payments may not be illegal under the FCPA or other applicable laws. Nevertheless, it may be difficult to distinguish a legal facilitating payment from an illegal bribe, kickback, or payoff. Accordingly, facilitating payments must be strictly controlled and every effort must be made to eliminate or minimize such payments. Facilitating payments, if required, will be made only in accordance with the advance guidance of the Legal Department. All facilitating payments must be recorded accurately as facilitating payments in the accounting records of the Company.
  Note the use of the term "facilitating payments."
Seize profits and related assets by syousef · 2011-03-20 14:35 · Score: 1

I know what you mean, but what else can you do other than levy a fine?
1) Seize ALL resulting profit AND
2) Seize ALL assets used in commiting the crime (Why should they be treated any better than drug dealers?) AND
3) Levy a fine on top of that AND
4) Investigate individuals for criminal prosecution with a view to banning them from being in similar positions in the future
In other words make it truly not worth anyone's time if they get caught.
If $10 is nothing to IBM, lets see if they're hurt by $200M

--
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
1. Re:Seize profits and related assets by CodeBuster · 2011-03-20 15:28 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  You're familiar with the expression, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you"? It applies here too. Most of us here on Slashdot have jobs and can feed our families because international business exists and chooses to operate here in the United States. We cannot afford to be unfriendly to businesses that we desperately need to stay here and create jobs. So they bribed some Korean officials? Who gives a flying f**ck, that's how they do business outside the United States. If that helps to keep my job here in the United States then frankly, I couldn't care less what goes on in Korea. Like many government agencies set up to protect the "little guy", the SEC has done more to prevent the best investment opportunities from reaching the middle class over the last seventy seven odd years than just about anyone else. The rich are able to make real investments while the rest of us are basically stuck handing our profits over to mutual fund managers in our 401k's because that is what keeps us "safe" from having losses (and gains) and safe from ever having a real retirement. The only real hope for the little guy is to somehow amass enough wealth to become a High Net Worth Individual at which point the real investment opportunities become available.
2. Re:Seize profits and related assets by Anonymous Coward · 2011-03-20 15:48 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  There is a fine line between bribery and being extorted.
3. Re:Seize profits and related assets by ibsteve2u · 2011-03-20 16:30 · Score: 2
  
  If that helps to keep my job here in the United States then frankly, I couldn't care less what goes on in Korea.
  It is highly unlikely that IBM's goal was or is to keep your - or any other American's - job here in the United States. You cost too much - given currency exchange rates.
  
  --
  Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
4. Re:Seize profits and related assets by cheekyjohnson · 2011-03-20 16:32 · Score: 1
  
  If it benefits you, let the corruption continue? I can see why many people would want to do that, but it doesn't sound all that appealing to people who aren't in that sort of situation...
  
  --
  Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
5. Re:Seize profits and related assets by syousef · 2011-03-20 17:58 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  So they bribed some Korean officials? Who gives a flying f**ck, that's how they do business outside the United States.
  
  So they bribed some US officials to let migrant workers do the job at half the price and fired all their staff? So what!? It's an at will state. Those greedy rich Americans can apply at subsistance wages like I did.
  See, it cuts both ways. You allow bribery to thrive to suit a corporation, and they'll turn on you. If you allow bribery justice is never carried out and people suffer - anything from death and injury to virtual slavery. I'm alright screw everyone else is a destructive unenlightened attitude.
  
  --
  These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
6. Re:Seize profits and related assets by TapeCutter · 2011-03-20 18:37 · Score: 1
  
  If $10 is nothing to IBM, lets see if they're hurt by $200M
  IBM has roughly a 20% profit margin, meaning they need to make $50M in revenue to pay the $10M fine. A $50M loss in revenue isn't going to bankrupt IBM but you're kidding yourself if you think it doesn't hurt. Besides, the public officials who accepted (demanded?) the bribes are the real criminals in this story.
  
  --
  And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
7. Re:Seize profits and related assets by The1stImmortal · 2011-03-20 19:39 · Score: 1
  
  5) Unincorporate the company
  
  Seriously - it's the equivalent of the death penalty for corporations. Given the death penalty is still in use throughout much (most?) of the US, this would be an appropriate equivalent for use in corporations.
  
  I wonder what the corporate equivalent to inprisonment would be though...? X years working exclusively for the government for free on a fixed rate income and eating into existing capital or something?
8. Re:Seize profits and related assets by Hognoxious · 2011-03-21 00:05 · Score: 1
  
  I'm surprised you didn't suggest throwing rocks at them, or at least cutting their hands off.
  
  --
  Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
9. Re:Seize profits and related assets by JamesP · 2011-03-21 00:34 · Score: 1
  
  Until the Koreans bribes China and then they buy the Korean crap instead of IBM crap
  
  --
  how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
10. Re:Seize profits and related assets by Stargoat · 2011-03-21 02:24 · Score: 1
  
  There is a fine line between bribery and being extorted.
  Exactly. Show me a person who has done successful business in China. If that person says he did not bribe anyone, he is a liar. If he did not directly deliver the cash, then one of his subordinates did. It is impossible to do anything in China without bribing people. It is simply the way the culture has evolved there. People bribe. That is what they do. And anyone, business professor, lawyer, State Department Official, who says otherwise is a liar.
  
  --
  Hoist Number One and Number Six.
11. Re:Seize profits and related assets by kokojie · 2011-03-21 08:39 · Score: 1
  
  Actually IBM has shipped almost all their engineering jobs overseas to India and China.
12. Re:Seize profits and related assets by ibsteve2u · 2011-03-21 15:13 · Score: 1
  
  Wasn't trying to imply IBM shipped jobs to Korea...their workers are too expensive for IBM's tastes, too.
  
  I.e., I understand that these days IBM is just another Sino-Indian corporation that enjoys enormous competitive advantages due to currency exchange rates and the differing values nations put on the quality and duration of human life.
  
  --
  Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
13. Re:Seize profits and related assets by CodeBuster · 2011-03-21 17:34 · Score: 1
  
  I'm alright screw everyone else is a destructive unenlightened attitude.
  F**ck enlightenment, that doesn't put food on my family's table. The world is a destructive and unenlightened place and your foreign competition is playing hardball, so take what you can get and make no apologies. That's what I do and I have no regrets.
Wait, wait .... by future+assassin · 2011-03-20 14:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

Bringing down Wall St and getting rewarded with a bail out is ok but bribing foreigners with a few thousands here and there is full on illegal? Only in Bizzaro land called the US of A.

--
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
1. Re:Wait, wait .... by Anubis+IV · 2011-03-20 17:11 · Score: 2
  
  A) IBM didn't bring down Wall Street, so there's little reason to compare them against one another, since they are very different situations.
  B) I think we can agree that both are wrong. This doesn't have to be a one or the other thing, though clearly some people got away with crimes, while others didn't get away with theirs.
Yeah ... by khasim · 2011-03-20 15:07 · Score: 1

First off, I'm not inferring anything.
I'm straight out SAYING that when you legitimize corruption then ALL interactions with the government or other businesses in that country exhibit the characteristics that arialCo identified.

But a middle class of 50% of the population controling 40% of the wealth is a force to be reckoned with.
And totally irrelevant because, as mentioned before, the countries with the most corruption have the lowest standards of living.
There won't be a middle class there because the corruption prevents it from forming. It prevents the middle class from forming by transferring the money from projects that would facilitate the middle class forming into the pockets of those who already have the money and power.
1. Re:Yeah ... by MasaMuneCyrus · 2011-03-20 16:09 · Score: 1
  
  There won't be a middle class there because the corruption prevents it from forming. It prevents the middle class from forming by transferring the money from projects that would facilitate the middle class forming into the pockets of those who already have the money and power.
  Not every country is Zimbabwe. Every developing and developed Asian nation is an example of a country that started so filthy with corruption you'd want to wash your hands after dealing with them, and each country, on its own pace of development and reform, has been building middle classes and cleaning things up over time.
  Japan is an example where corruption is down to first-world levels and the middle class is gigantic.
  South Korea and Taiwan are examples of countries where there are still struggles between the younger and more virtuous, and the older and staunchly corrupt generations of politicians, but they're both embarking on the home-stretch towards being world-class, unambiguously first-world highly developed nations.
  China is a country that is still firmly in the grasp of endemic corruption but is steadily creating a middle class and is visibly heading in the right direction.
2. Re:Yeah ... by Solandri · 2011-03-20 18:15 · Score: 1
  
  I'm straight out SAYING that when you legitimize corruption then ALL interactions with the government or other businesses in that country exhibit the characteristics that arialCo identified.
  You've never actually managed a large group of people or a company with a large corruption problem, have you? Fighting corruption is not as simple as waving a magic wand and declaring that nobody is allowed to do anything evil again. Often times, the only people skilled enough to continue running a company or a government are people who are corrupt. The choice then isn't between a functional country with corruption, or a function country without corruption. It's between a functional country with corruption, or a non-functional country without corruption.
  
  You're usually better off gradually transitioning - eliminating the worst of the corruption while keeping the less corrupt people, allowing new people to be trained with the skills necessary to keep things functioning. Then you eliminate the worst and the most corrupt again and bring in more new people. Repeat and the level of corruption drops each iteration.
  
  And totally irrelevant because, as mentioned before, the countries with the most corruption have the lowest standards of living.
  
  There won't be a middle class there because the corruption prevents it from forming.
  That's simply wrong. Both Japan and South Korea developed thriving middle classes despite corruption. China's middle class is growing dramatically. All started off corrupt, and are in various stages of becoming less corrupt. South Korea in fact is a perfect example of a country with moderate to high living standards which until recently had rampant corruption.
  
  I'm not saying the Japan/Korea model will work with every country. Some will need a stricter approach more like yours. Some will react better to to gentler nudging. But your absolute "no corruption allowed" approach simply does not work. It's a great goal to work towards, but demanding strict adherence to it from the get-go rarely helps transition a corrupt society to a non-corrupt one. In fact it's more likely to get you a bullet to the back of your head.
Exactly by symbolset · 2011-03-20 17:38 · Score: 2

It would be newsworthy if IBM managed to do business in China without bribery. Cash is the lubricant that greases the wheels of business in Brazil, Russia, India and China. And I put it like that because these nations are referred to as "BRIC", though there are many other minor markets where approvals to do anything cannot be had without some lube in the form of a grocery bag full of soft folding cash. There's a reason why the US airlifted many pallets of hundred dollar bills into Iraq, Afganistan, and other current ports of interest, and now cannot account for where they went, to the sum of billions of dollars. When in Rome...

--
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Just a token effort by Phrogman · 2011-03-20 18:43 · Score: 1

to make it look like government fights corruption - at home or abroad - while waiting for the next "political contribution" from the same companies. Bribery is the norm in many countries abroad, here its just got a different name...

--
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
Actually... by jvonk · 2011-03-20 18:49 · Score: 1

...and why should we have the Geneva conventions when the other side doesn't.
I perceive the argument you are attempting to make; however, there is a slight point of order here—the Geneva Conventions don't apply if the other side isn't a signatory, unless the other side abides by the Conventions anyway.

Quoth Wikipedia (with actual citation for the fact, amazing!) on the Geneva Conventions article:
The Conventions apply to a signatory nation even if the opposing nation is not a signatory, but only if the opposing nation "accepts and applies the provisions" of the Conventions. (emphasis mine)

If you think about it, this is the only way a cognitively dissonant concept like "laws of war" could even be remotely workable. If "side 1" is violating surrender protocol by detonating suicide bombs strapped to their soldiers, then it really isn't tenable to force "side 2" to grant quarter. So, as nasty as it sounds, if "side 1" is sending children strapped with bombs at "side 2", then it's perfectly reasonable to expect "side 2" to shoot children who match the profile of suicide bombers.

As I said before, the very concept of "laws" in war is highly cognitively dissonant. To wit: "Okay, so, we are going to go our separate ways and then attempt to kill each other in order to force the other side to bend to our will. Oh, but killing strategies x, y, and z aren't cool and are criminal. So, to recap: we agree it's time for mass killing, devious tricks, and depredation of each others' territories, but these certain listed things are offensive!"
1. Re:Actually... by Barrinmw · 2011-03-21 02:01 · Score: 1
  
  I think you got my point though that I was trying to make, that even though other people have no qualms about doing things, we do and try to stay "righteous" as best we can.
Bribe ? What Bribe ? by light_rock · 2011-03-20 19:02 · Score: 1

Sure there must be a line, somewhere... but let's keep it same same. What are the real roots of "trade imbalance" anyway... When in Rome, Beijing, or Seoul... "Business is business" We can all tie our hands behind our back and stand on one leg too... Sign here...
Re:Wrong jurisdiction? by The1stImmortal · 2011-03-20 19:45 · Score: 1

I would suggest that being a US company, its behaviour abroad is still governed at least in part by US law. Much like the behaviour of US citizens abroad would be subject to some US laws.

(Or apparently these days the behaviour of non-US Citizens, if they've ever actually come in contact or so much as seen or even heard of a US citizen ;) )
subject by Legion303 · 2011-03-20 21:37 · Score: 1

Yes, $10M for over a decade of concessions from Chinese officials. That will teach IBM! They can take it from petty cash.
Home Advantage by anorlunda · 2011-03-21 00:31 · Score: 1

IBM seems to be getting off easy. $10 million for hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes covering multiple incidents over an extended period of time.
ABB, with headquarters in Zurich was recently fined $58 million for only two, relatively small, bribe incidents.
http://www.abb.com/cawp/seitp202/b7aa479846d0fe19c12577ae0017bfa0.aspx
The circumstances suggest favoritism for home team players.
.
$10mil is a drop in the bucket by bulled · 2011-03-21 02:24 · Score: 1

It is likely an order of magnitude or 2 less than the value of the business earned by this bribe. So what IBM has learned here is that SEC fines are simply another cost of doing business with PRC and South Korea.
Ethics ... by Bob-taro · 2011-03-21 02:39 · Score: 1

This is sad. During a brief period of employment with IBM (I was "rebadged" instead of laid off from another company) I listened to a presentation about IBM's core values. IBM, they say, was founded on solid core values - things they wouldn't waver on, ever. Why even in the 80s when everyone was laying people off, IBM refused to do so. Then (with a straight face mind you) he said that IBM almost went out of business, and had to re-evaluate their core values. So apparently they now have an evolving set of core values that sometimes have to give way to preserving the company.
IMHO, The real test of your ethics is whether you follow them even when it's bad for you.

--
Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
1. Re:Ethics ... by rgviza · 2011-03-21 03:49 · Score: 1
  
  > So apparently they now have an evolving set of core values that sometimes have to give way to preserving the company.
  You need to weigh that against the issue of not having a company. Do we go out of business or feel the sting of our pride fucking with us and stay IN business?
  Most people go with the paycheck. Unless you are independently wealthy, that's the smart thing to do, keep a roof over your head and eat. The moral high ground often means bankruptcy once you are squeezed between that rock and the hard place.
  
  --
  Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.