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Motorola's Sholes Bootloader Unlocked

teh31337one writes "Motorola's locked bootloader for their Sholes-family devices (Droid OG, Milestone, DroidX, Droid 2 etc, not Atrix 4G) has finally been cracked. @nenolod explains on his website: The Motorola Sholes platform uses a trusted bootloader environment. Signatures are stored as part of the CDT stored on the NAND flash. mbmloader verifies the signature on mbm before passing control. mbm verifies all other signatures before allowing the device to boot. There is a vulnerability in the way that Motorola generated the signatures on the sections stored in the CDT. This vulnerability is very simple. Like on the PlayStation 3, Motorola forgot to add a random value to the signature in order to mask the private key. This allowed the private key and initialization vector to be cracked. This comes at the time when HTC are also stepping up their attempts at locking down their phones . The recently released LTE flagship — ThunderBolt is their most locked-down phone to date ... They made signed images, a signed kernel, and a signed recovery. They also locked the memory."

283 comments

  1. Sorry, but no by Nuno+Sa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even with the cracked bootloader, the company's attitude is not good, so I won't buy a phone from them.

    1. Re:Sorry, but no by leehwtsohg · · Score: 2

      I totally agree! My motophone is stuck in 2.1 with all its bugs and the additional bugs Motorola has, and will not get an upgrade, unless a kind hacker does the job that Motorola should have done. The problem is that the list of companies I won't buy a phone from is getting longer and longer. Sony, Motorola, and of course, apple. Sad.

    2. Re:Sorry, but no by mwvdlee · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Which companies are NOT on the list?

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    3. Re:Sorry, but no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Samsung, LG, ZTE?

    4. Re:Sorry, but no by ciderbrew · · Score: 0

      The ones with phones so crap they are not even worth looking at.

    5. Re:Sorry, but no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay! I will be able to update to 2.2!
      But yes, you are right... don't buy something you can't fully own!

    6. Re:Sorry, but no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There`s a 2.2 beta for Milestone floating around the net, and a very nice cyanogen mod 7 (2.3.3) unofficial for the Milestone, using it on mine.
      Its REALLY a PITA to crack it, but worth the time. Will probably be easier now.

    7. Re:Sorry, but no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any Nexus-badged phone will be fine, even if it's from a manufacturer who is otherwise an asshole.

    8. Re:Sorry, but no by Intron · · Score: 1

      How about Nokia? N900 is fairly open. The one thing no radio transmitter should let you do is modify the frequencies that you are using to be outside the permitted spectrum, although I don't see a problem with listening.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    9. Re:Sorry, but no by turbotroll · · Score: 2

      Which companies are NOT on the list?

      One of them is GeeksPhone. Rooted out of the box, runs vanilla Android or CyanogenMod.

    10. Re:Sorry, but no by teh31337one · · Score: 4, Informative

      Even with the cracked bootloader, the company's attitude is not good, so I won't buy a phone from them.

      Speaking of which:

      December 20th, 2010 — Motorola notified of keystore vulnerability. No response received from Motorola.

      February 20th, 2011 — Motorola notified again of keystore vulnerability. No response received from Motorola.

      February 27th, 2011 — Motorola notified that keystore vulnerability will be disclosed to public on March 20th. No response received from Motorola.

      March 20th, 2011 — Keystore signature generation vulnerability publically disclosed including private key leak. Response received from Motorola legal.(C&D)

    11. Re:Sorry, but no by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Informative

      N900 is a 3 year old phone. call me when Nokia makes a modern version.... of which they will not because they are now a all Microsoft shop. Nokia's dead man, the body just hasn't stopped moving.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    12. Re:Sorry, but no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HTC, Motorola, Apple, Sony...

      Samsung? What other companies make "Cutting edge" phones that are worth buying? Same for Tablets.

      I was considering getting a Xoom, but this does remind me that there are other options.

    13. Re:Sorry, but no by digitalchinky · · Score: 2

      These days it seems that most transceivers can be modified. The web abounds with entry codes or simple circuit modifications that near on anyone could make to increase the available frequency range. Here in the Philippines (Sta. Cruz in Manila) you can pick up hand held or base station type radios that can transmit AM / FM / CW / SSB pretty much continuous from 1 to 1000MHz. They cost anywhere from $200 USD to about $3000 depending on what features you might want.

      I guess I'm the opposite, I did ELINT for a lot of years in Australian military so I like my stuff to have no artificial restrictions in place. I'd like to think I'm responsible about it too, if it's an empty chunk of spectrum, why not.

    14. Re:Sorry, but no by leehwtsohg · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but I have the Flipout. I like small phones, and I thought everybody would like the Flipout. I was wrong. And now Motorola announced Flipout will stay in 2.1. So, maybe people will port Milestone stuff to the Flipout, but the community is very small.

    15. Re:Sorry, but no by v1 · · Score: 1

      only problem is best place to lock down frequencies is in the baseband, and shortsighted fools that they are that's where they lock which carrier you can use. So to unlock the phone requires compromise of the baseband.

      Tho there's very little point in modifying the frequency of your cell phone unless you're setting up your own pirate cell tower...

      --
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    16. Re:Sorry, but no by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      One of them is GeeksPhone [geeksphone.com]. Rooted out of the box, runs vanilla Android or CyanogenMod.

      Nice company. Now if they just had a product for sale it might be interesting.

      All they've currently got is a "countdown" to the release of something. They had a handset for sale (I think) but it's no longer "in stock".

      I wish them luck, though.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    17. Re:Sorry, but no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the sake of satisfying my curiosity, can you provide links to any of these events?

    18. Re:Sorry, but no by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Do you really want $RandomLuser to be mucking about in the transmitter stages? YOU might know what to do (and more importantly, what not to do), others not so much. Not really an issue for receivers but the idea of a couple of thousand off kilter transmitters polluting the spectrum in a large city doesn't make me jump for joy. Yes, especially for cells phones we're talking a tiny transmitter but you put out a hack that you can download and then you have an issue that's really hard to identify and clean up.

      --
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    19. Re:Sorry, but no by rrossman2 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention if the specs were better:

      http://www.geeksphone.com/en/moviles/especificaciones.php

    20. Re:Sorry, but no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well that is all well and good but we are talking about phones, not televisions here...

      P.S. LG makes some of the nicer LCD tvs now, don't know what you are talking about.

    21. Re:Sorry, but no by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Google.

      Either the Nexus line, or the ADP line.

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    22. Re: Sorry, but no by SuperTechnoNerd · · Score: 1

      I spit on all this controlling technology. I refuse to buy into it.

      I have a 2G phone - it makes calls.. Im happy.
      I have no Ipod, Ipad or any Icrap. Don't need it
      I have no game consoles, Xbox Nintendo or Sony crap - Boycotted!
      I have no Blue Ray Player - Never Ever
      I have an old DVD player - don't use that much anymore.
      I have only 40 CD's which I don't listen to. Got a few non-DRM mp3's
      I have no DRM'ed E-Reader. NOT EVER
      I Run Linux!
      Free at last, free at last! Thank God Almighty I'm free at last!

    23. Re:Sorry, but no by datapharmer · · Score: 1

      I have 2.3.3 running without too much trouble, my biggest issue with the milestone is that I am only getting edge in the US - have tried it on AT&T and T-mobile. T-mobile I would expect to not work due to the 1700mhz, but why I can't get AT&T to work had been really bugging me. I think it is likely just a baseband issue, but not certain - any suggestions?

      --
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    24. Re:Sorry, but no by thetartanavenger · · Score: 1

      There was a tweet from Motorola recently explaining that the lock on the bootloader for the XOOM could be turned on or off at will. Anyone know if this is an actual change in opinion over at MotoHQ, or just pressure from Google because it's the first Honeycomb tablet available? Also, does anyone know if this lockdown of the phones is due to pressure from the service providers?

      It appears to be aimed at developers whilst keeping the nice safe consumer ecosystem secure. I don't know about you but if their new phones came out with this option they may suddenly start entering into my consideration again..

      --
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    25. Re: Sorry, but no by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      It's easy to avoid DRM when you run an OS that doesn't have any content worth protecting.

      --
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    26. Re:Sorry, but no by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Even with the cracked bootloader, the company's attitude is not good, so I won't buy a phone from them.

      Nobody should. Unfortunately, a lot of people already bought from Motorola before their crippling policies became common knowledge. And those people now finally get the option to upgrade beyond Android 2.1.

    27. Re:Sorry, but no by NitroWolf · · Score: 1

      N900 is a 3 year old phone. call me when Nokia makes a modern version.... of which they will not because they are now a all Microsoft shop. Nokia's dead man, the body just hasn't stopped moving.

      You should amend that to when they make a modern version with a UI that doesn't suck. They haven't been able to develop a decent UI since... um... well. I guess they've never been able to handle that end of the market. Even their dumbphone UI's were some of the worst UI's ever invented. How you screw that up is a mystery but Nokia managed that. I wasn't touching Nokia phones at the start of Symbian because of the horrible performance of their pre-(semi)smartphones, so maybe Symbian was good when it first rolled out, but circa mid 2000's Symbian was old, slow and crappy and hasn't improved a bit since.

    28. Re:Sorry, but no by exomondo · · Score: 1

      You should amend that to when they make a modern version with a UI that doesn't suck.

      I didn't mind the N900's Hildon desktop UI, the problem for me was the resistive touchscreen (and the device could get pretty laggy). I think that UI on a decent 4" capacitive touchscreen would be great.

    29. Re:Sorry, but no by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I'm an integrator and I will NOT touch Samsung and LG. Samsung plasmas and LCD's are utter garbage, more returns on those than anything else.

      Returns because of image quality or returns because of mechanical failure?

      I've still got a-rather-expensive-at-the-time CRT because all of the LCD's I've seen to date have had garbage image quality. I started to see a couple Samsungs in the $2500 range this past autumn that I actually thought might be worthwhile.

      --
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    30. Re:Sorry, but no by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Which companies are NOT on the list?

      HTC.

      I just bought a HTC Desire Z and I'm stoked with it. I was just as pleased with my older HTC Dream.

      Comparing that with my Milestone that had a locked bootloader, the Milestone had a far better audio system to the newer Desire Z but their attitude towards updates and community ROM's sucked. The hardware was great, the support sucked.

      If anyone were to buy an Android phone, I'd recommend a HTC over other brands (esp. Sony and Motorola) as HTC have the best history of updates, even if you don't like HTC Sense (like me) you can replace it with CyanogenMod. Plus HTC spec their phone's pretty well, generous RAM, decent proc's, nice screens. Rooting and going S-Off was a trivial affair.

      --
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    31. Re:Sorry, but no by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Failures.

      and Samsung will not allow us to replace with a new set, only a refurb set. Someone paying $2500.00 for a set that dies in 20 days get's pissed when we have to give them a refurb. they deserve a brand new set. Out of the last 20 sets installed here, 11 have been replaced for defects. And these are the commercial grade sets not the consumer sets. They have a very high failure rate, and some of the failures are intermittent, like not coming on all the time, or a shutdown when it has a wonky video resolution and refuse to turn back on unless you yank the power plug for 10 minutes.

      Samsungs have a really high failure and firmware bug rate. Plus the integration of them in a fully controlled system is a nightmare compared to the others. Even sony is better when it comes to controlling it with crestron or AMX.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    32. Re:Sorry, but no by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      I really hope they make a N1000 that has a nice powerful dual core and modern open smartphone that owns the others but I dont see it happening. Their changes recently are going AWAY from that.

      I loved Nokia phones, they had features years ago that smartphones only now are getting.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    33. Re:Sorry, but no by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the data. I'll hold onto my wallet until things improve.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  2. Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... as a programmer is to spend less time trying to hack, tweak, or otherwise add value to platforms owned by companies who want to strip away my rights as a user to modify and operate those platforms as I see fit.

    1. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by clang_jangle · · Score: 0

      So where are the worthy devices made by worthy companies? Personally, I still require my phone to be a phone, as well as being a networked computing device. So far nothing beats the Blackberry for real-world usage, IMO. Most of the people I know have Android or an iPhone, and they're all in search of charging outlets by early afternoon. Just can't see going back to that 90s-like level of utility, myself...

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    2. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if you use your android phone *LIKE* a phone, then you can easily get 2-4 days of usable time out of it. I've got myself a T-Mobile Comet (Also known as the Huawei Ideos, the phone, not the tablet), and unless I have the screen on a lot, or use cpu intensive apps, it works more than servicably as a straight cell-phone. It also has FM radio support which will last a good 6-8 hours even with the screen on much of the time for switching channels.

    3. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by clang_jangle · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Well, if you use your android phone *LIKE* a phone

      Are you chastising me for using my smart phone's features? What an idiot -- I do everything on my Blackberry, and plug it in nightly (as opposed to every four to six hours like everyone I know who uses Android). I don't have to jump through hoops to get that, it's normal.

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    4. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by dargaud · · Score: 3, Insightful

      2 years ago I bought an HTC for the very reason that there wasn't any lockdown on it. So why is it that they now want to lose me as a customer ? I don't understand that.

      --
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    5. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by erroneus · · Score: 1

      I kinda like my Samsung Vibrant. It's not like it was hard to root or anything like that. And the team whiskey stuff I have on my phone now is just nice.

    6. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by jhoegl · · Score: 1, Informative

      Where do you get your information?
      My Droid is plugged in every 2-4 days depending on usage.

    7. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by erroneus · · Score: 1

      Really? You can't understand that?

      Here's why: In the US, the only way to get a phone is through a carrier. (Well, not the only way, but still) And carriers like to control the devices on their networks so they can control the features and functions active on them... so they can sell the services that should be free (like texting) for a butt-raping price.

      And if the carriers decide "for technical reasons" they cannot host a particular model or make of phone, they will lock them out of service on all of their towers.

      In short, it is because carriers seek to charge the customers for more while delivering less. They can't do that if they are free to do it by themselves.

    8. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by clang_jangle · · Score: 0

      As I said, everyone I know has either a Droid or an iPhone, so the "2-4 days" is nonsense and you know it. Unless you just rarely use your phone.

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    9. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if anecdotal evidence counts, I own both a Curve (work) and Droid 2 (personal). For similar usage, I get similar battery time. If I use a lot of the smart phone features on either, I can probably get two days but it's close. If I use strictly as a phone, I can get 3 or 4 days between charges. I'd say the Blackberry is slightly more battery efficient, but it's also a significantly crappier phone.

    10. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by peragrin · · Score: 1

      my 2.5 year old iphone 3G goes 2-4 days between charges depending on usage too.

      It takes a lot of talking to wear the battery down during one day.

      --
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    11. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by icebraining · · Score: 2

      So you buy a smartphone to have the same features as a $30 Nokia?

    12. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by dargaud · · Score: 1

      I did buy the phone directly, not through the carrier. So how do those DRM bootloaders behave in this case ? Are they disabled ? Or does the maker simply stop selling you phones directly ?

      --
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    13. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 5, Funny

      Blackberry? That's the phone that comes with a trackball, right? I heard their next model will run IBM DOS 5.0 with DOS Shell, and it'll remove the trackball in favor of a 3-button rs232 ball mouse. The DB-25 connector will increase the form factor a little bit, but damn, I'm so buying that phone.

      --
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    14. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by wodelltech · · Score: 1

      I totally agree with your sentiments, but none of my (6) blackberry phones have done any better. They require charging every night. (18hr standby is the advertised life for my bold). I'm still missing the 'good old days' when I would charge my phone once per week. Try to go camping for 3 days without a solar charger. 'Just turn it off when you aren't using it???' The blackberry boot time is as bad as any.

      I'll try to bring up battery performance again this year at GoogleIO, but seems like no one really cares. 'Performance' means only frame-rate, screen resolution, and clock speed. Sigh

      --
      Your monitor is staring at you.
    15. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      >>>to spend less time trying to hack, tweak, or otherwise add value to platforms

      In my experience it's not worth it. Especially if you just wait a year-or-two and those new things get added "automatically" by faster processors.

      >>>So where are the worthy devices made by worthy companies?

      My VirginMobile (nokia) phone has Opera Mini, and makes calls. That's all I need. The "real work" I do on a laptop or desktop.

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    16. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Error: wrong target

    17. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      >>>It takes a lot of talking to wear the battery down during one day.

      Not talking. "Smartphoning" i.e. using it like a computer. He said that in his original post.

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    18. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd say the Blackberry is slightly more battery efficient, but it's also a significantly crappier phone.

      No possible way! Either you're a lying android fanboi or your company Blackberry is ancient and beat. Android ***sucks*** for real-world phone use, and the Blackberry works as well as any landline phone.

    19. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      90s-like level of utility? Yup, sounds like a Blackberry.

    20. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by dreamchaser · · Score: 0

      You're just trolling, and you're spewing bullshit. My old Blackberry did last far longer, but I use my HTC Incredible quite a bit for phone, email, web, and apps every day. I plug it in at night and it's good to go for the next day without having to worry about it. Enough astroturfing, trolling, or whatever agenda you'd trying to further. Get a fucking clue.

    21. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      Actually, it depends on what you're using the phone for.... things that wear the battery down quickly on an Android phone are:

      1. Having the screen on 100% brightness. (most new phones have a light level sensor and can automatically adjust the screen brightness... put it on this mode, it saves battery).
      2. Playing games constantly on the phone. Of course, it depends on the game, some of them are actually very CPU-friendly, some of them will peg the CPU and drain the battery super fast.
      3. In that same vein, letting apps remain open when you're not using them will drain the battery. There's task manager apps to close stuff you're not using, and using such an app can save battery by reducing the number of tasks running.
      4. Similarly, running many different games and switching between them increases the number of programs running in memory. If you just play one or two games and don't switch between them frequently, you can save battery because of the above.
      5. Mobile data. Using it really sucks back the juice in the battery. Switching mobile data off can save a ton of battery life, or, more practically, using the built-in wifi when you're in range of a wifi network will use less power, as the mobile data will shut off while you're connected to wifi.
      6. Playing MP3's/media player. There's a dedicated mp3 chip in most phones that's usually turned off, and when it turns on to play MP3's, it does draw more power.
      7. Having Bluetooth enabled.
      8. Being in an area with poor coverage. The phone increases the transmit power when you have low bars, which draws more power.

      Without changing my phone, I've seen cases where the phone's battery is dying by the end of my work day (10 hours, with a 1.5h commute each way), but I've also seen days where the battery's good for 2-3 days. It all depends on how I'm using the phone, and what I'm using it for. It's good for a full day, and not the end of the world if I forget to plug it in at night with my current usage habits, which include listening to FM radio during the bus ride portion of my commute, having my phone connected to the wifi at work, not really playing many games except for the occasional game of reversi or angry birds. And I leave bluetooth on full time (BT-enabled car, I'm too lazy to turn it off when I'm not in the car). I check social networking from time to time during the commute (able to check it from my workstation at work), but most of the data usage I have is from the phone checking the gmail account.

    22. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by MrHanky · · Score: 2

      Sorry, but if you have to charge your phone after four hours, you've most likely been playing Angry Birds for four hours straight. In other words, either none of the people you know have to work for a living, or you're simply lying. My bet is on the latter.

    23. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by quantumphaze · · Score: 2

      Get yourself an N900 before they all run out. Seems almost certain that the industry as a whole is moving toward totalitarian lockdown that makes the current Apple look like GNU. My prediction is that Samsung will be next with locked handsets.

      Meego (the only thing that could bridge the PC and phone) was all but murdered, HP/Palm haven't released anything but press releases. What hope is there that in 5 years time we will still be able to have Debian chroots in out pockets?

    24. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want 5+ days of battery life, you can't have a smart phone. It's that fucking simple. All of the phone companies offer ~$30 phones that make calls, maybe have an alarm feature, and little else. GET ONE AND STOP WHINING ABOUT SMART PHONE BATTERY LIFE.

      Goddamn fucking dumbass

    25. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by klingens · · Score: 1

      They behave the same. All over Europe you can buy Motorola phones in normal, non-carrier affiliated shops and they all have this same DRM scheme for their bootloader.

    26. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by duguk · · Score: 1

      So where are the worthy devices made by worthy companies?

      Not exactly worthy right now, but Nokie did at least make a Linux-based smartphone, with decent battery life - the N900.

    27. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most of the people I know have Android or an iPhone, and they're all in search of charging outlets by early afternoon. Just can't see going back to that 90s-like level of utility, myself...

      With great power comes great battery drain. Utility is defined as being of practical use. In the 90s I had a phone that I could use to make a call and send some SMS. You want that? You got that. Buy yourself an Android phone, deactivate bluetooth, wifi and GPS. Turn off all bands associated with data transfer. Dim your screens to barely readable levels, and only ever turn on the display for the purpose to make a call. You'll find your battery will last close to 4 days. You'll also find you wasted a big portion of your devices capabilities.

      In terms of practical use the utility of the mobile phone has never been higher. While I was overseas I was able to click a button on my phone to turn it into a mobile access point so I could get my laptop on the internet. Yeah it chewed through battery but having that ability alone made it all worth while. While walking around Prague I was never once lost due to the GPS functionality. I was able to quickly look up public transport timetables and even book international train tickets. While sitting on the train I had a library of music available to me, and when the Japanese earthquake hit I found out about it while I was on public transport far away from a laptop or TV.

      The world is at my fingertips now, THAT is the utility of the modern phone, and you know what happens at the end of the day? I plug it in. Either to the wall, the car, or a common USB socket. My phone has never gone flat.

      As for lockdown... my phone was not locked to any provider out of the box. My phone was rooted in a matter of minutes. My phone has a custom kernel on it provided by the hobbyist hackers over at xda-developers. Neither of this added anything that the manufacturer didn't already provide, but instead simply bypassed my stupid carrier's slackness in providing updates. In fact the only thing I have so far found even slightly wrong on my phone is that I can't connect my Wiimote to it due to a bluetooth issue.

      Buy a Nexus S or one of the Samsung Galaxy variants.

    28. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by erroneus · · Score: 1

      It is because of the influence of telecoms that these things happen. I will recall to your attention a story that came not long after the iPhone became common throughout Europe. Despite the fact that local carriers in Europe permitted tethering and that it was previously enabled in their firmware, AT&T's influence caused Apple to push out firmwares that disabled that for everyone because even though that functionality was disabled locally, people were acquiring EU firmware to enable tethering on their US phones.

      So when it comes to who has the most influence, I think it is demonstrably the carriers in the US that carry the most weight... they make the most money so naturally, they are the most influential.

      So while the companies selling phone equipment not specific to a carrier, the manufacturer is still quite beholden to the carriers and most specifically, the US carriers.

    29. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by quantumphaze · · Score: 1

      If they actually made a phone with an RS-232 Dsub-9 port I know many engineers and sysadmins would buy one.

    30. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Spare batteries are about $6 on ebay. I keep one in the car and one for carrying about my person when needed. Alternatively, buy a basic phone and swap the sim in when needed (if you are on a carrier which has such a system. If you are not, consider it a point to consider)

    31. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      I can kill your iphone's battery in 2 hours not using it.

      the iphone sucks when it's on a fringe service area. they get physically hot as they dump all the battery into the transmitter going full boat trying to keep in contact with the marginal cell service tower that is 40 mile away.

      But then this will do the same to any other phone. the blackberry I carry also dies withing 2 hours from a full charge in the same location.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    32. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      "Here's why: In the US, the only way to get a phone is through a carrier. "

      Correction, for the LAZY that is the only way. LAZY people will not spend time buying a unlocked OEM phone. Or the poor trying to look like rich people by doing the rent to own phone plan.

      I buy ALL my phones unlocked out of the box, and yes you can even get a iphone 4 that way out of the box. no they are not cracked by someone, these are phones that are unbranded or for a market that allows freedom instead of fascist dictatorship. A european iphone 4 works perfectly here and is sim unlocked. Nokias are all unlocked as well as many of the android phones.

      But doing this takes 1-2 hours in the evening chasing down what I want and having the cash on hand to buy it. But then I also dont go to best buy and listen to the uneducated idiots telling me that i need 640hz 4dtv with hyper led low distortion optics. I research my purchases and make informed buying decisions.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    33. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Not all of them. You can get some android phones that do not have the DRM in the bootloader. I bought a friend a HTC desire from europe and we were able to flash it to google pure and clean android 2.2 without any effort, no drm to work around at all and no sim lock at all.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    34. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      So when it comes to who has the most influence, I think it is demonstrably the carriers in the US that carry the most weight... they make the most money so naturally, they are the most influential.

      Nope, not quite. The US carriers are still pretty small compared with the world market, even in terms of profit. The difference is that nowhere else in the world do carriers provide revenue-sharing deals with phone makers. If a European or Asian mobile phone network offers a phone, they buy them, then sell them to their customers (typically via a 'subsidy', which is really a loan at about 15% APR, with repayments hidden in the monthly fee). In the USA, this is how it works for most phones, but for things like the iPhone the networks also pay the manufacturer some percentage of all income derived from users of that phone.

      This means that, if AT&T wants to charge extra for tethering, then there is a strong incentive for Apple to make tethering without carrier permission hard, because they get a chunk of that extra money.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    35. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by The+Yuckinator · · Score: 1

      In my experience, using my Motorola Milestone "Like a phone" is the surest way to burn out the battery in no time. I can go from 100% to a 15% warning inside of a one hour phone conversation, but I can have GPS and 3G running easily for a 4-5 hour geocaching hike without any problems. Now, if you call me during that hike even a short phone call will make a significant impact on the battery life.

      I, for one am hoping to see better battery life out of a full blown Cyanogen ROM since the carriers can't seem to get their act together to make one themselves.

    36. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say nonsense right back at you. I plug in my Droid nightly. However it is generally at 60% - 70% charge when I plug it in. It comes off of the charger on my way to work at 3:15 AM and it goes onto the charger as I head up to bed at 8:30 PM. It is usually at 60% + at that point.

    37. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by GooberToo · · Score: 2

      Having the screen on 100% brightness. (most new phones have a light level sensor and can automatically adjust the screen brightness... put it on this mode, it saves battery).

      This was commonly stated when the feature first hit the market. Most testing indicates this actually makes batter life far, far worse, assuming you don't already, continuously, operate your display at 100% brightness. In other words, if you make any effort to control your screen's brightness, chances are, on average, over the span of a day, you're doing better than the automatic display adjustment.

      The problem with the automatic display adjustment is the fact that the display is continuously adjusted, frequently when it shouldn't be adjusted. Furthermore, the brightness setting is frequently too high for the current conditions, especially when not in full light.

      I personally use dimbot (which never shows on the battery usage list) but there are an almost endless list of options which are superior to the system's auto-adjustment feature. These applications are a great way to dramatically improve battery life.

      In that same vein, letting apps remain open when you're not using them will drain the battery. There's task manager apps to close stuff you're not using, and using such an app can save battery by reducing the number of tasks running.

      Completely untrue. Killing applications can not only break applications and properly semantical behavior, but actually increase battery load which is the exact opposite of your claim. By killing applications, you are preventing it from being cached for next use. Which means if the application needs to run again (especially if its heavily driven by alarms) means that instead of simply waking and running it must now be re-loaded from disk and then run. Furthermore, developers absolutely hate applications like Task Killer because it breaks so many applications. Even Google dislikes them because it slows the device, causes headaches for developers, decreases battery life, and prevents proper application caching and hurts performance.

      The real problem is, in Android versions prior to 2.0 (yes, that means all Android devices prior to 2.0 are fundamentally broken), Google has an extremely broken application lifecycle which caused applications to improperly use too much memory as well as lifecycle thrashing. Applications like Task Killer did help because it allowed the system to avoid these critical bugs. Devices after 2.0 and especially 2.1, absolutely do not require applications like Task Killer and absolutely should not be killing tasks. Doing so is dumb and a completely waste of resources, cpu, and battery life. Do so is actively fighting properly application lifecycles while concurrently breaking applications.

      Similarly, running many different games and switching between them increases the number of programs running in memory. If you just play one or two games and don't switch between them frequently, you can save battery because of the above.

      No it doesn't. You have no idea what you're talking about and clearly do not understand the application lifecycle for Android.

      Mobile data. Using it really sucks back the juice in the battery. Switching mobile data off can save a ton of battery life, or, more practically, using the built-in wifi when you're in range of a wifi network will use less power, as the mobile data will shut off while you're connected to wifi.

      As a rule of thumb, you are completely wrong. Mobile data in standby is what sucks power and this is especially true on CDMA networks. Unless you go into airplane mode, you can not disable CDMA standby. Which means, there are no options for CDMA users. Furthermore, when not in standby, WIFI consumes considerably more power than does mobile carrier network. Only ever use WIFI if your carrier's network is not available or you require a big speed boost. Any time your using WIFI over your carrier's

    38. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by clang_jangle · · Score: 0

      There are two android phones in my household and about thirty where I work, so I do know what I'm talking about. Nice touch though, accusing me of astroturfing when clearly that's your job...dipshit.

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    39. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by 3dr · · Score: 1

      Android phones have come a long way from the short battery capacities of say, the G1.

      I put my Atrix on the charger last night when it was down to 30%. The phone's recorded battery "uptime" at that point was 2 days, 11 hours. This is with my normal phone+email+web usage.

      But use the navigation app for even a little while, and the battery doesn't last long with all that HW turned on: GPS, screen, graphics, network radio, etc.

    40. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      I'll also add, leaving WIFI enabled, even when not connected, drains the battery more quickly. WIFI should be turned off until explicitly required and/or desires. Leaving WIFI enabled can reduce battery life much more so than using bluetooth.

      Something else I forgot to say, unused memory is absolutely wasted memory. And this is the exactly broken mentality that applications like Task Killer encourage - waste, waste, waste. Users confuse latency for efficiency and they are two completely different things. You can reduce latency in some cases with these types of applications but ALWAYS at the loss of system efficiency. And when this isn't true, it means you should seriously reconsider the installation of buggy or poorly written applications.

    41. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      People all too frequently confuse device's power use with application incurred battery life. All too often, people install poorly written applications and refuse to associate poor battery life with the given application. Furthermore, Android versions prior to 2.3 do not properly account for all CPU use. Which means, a lot of applications are running down the battery but are associated with the given application. This is generally true for applications which heavily require system level services for their feature set. As a result, the system is blamed for the battery use when in fact, its a given application.

      But use the navigation app for even a little while, and the battery doesn't last long with all that HW turned on: GPS, screen, graphics, network radio, etc.

      Most people don't realize that Google Navigation maintains a power lock when its running. This means you can save considerable power by turning off your display. This is especially true because when navigating, the display tends to be at 100% brightness (except at night, of course). And since the display is frequently the highest power draw on a device, considerable power can be saved by simply listening to the audible prompts with the display turned off.

      Also, newer versions of Google maps and navigator allow for limited map caching. Make sure you enabled this. This will prevent constant waking of your carrier data connection to download data. In other words, it allows your radio to actually enter standby and stay there longer, at the cost of some temporary disk space.

    42. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Name me a reliable service for buying unlocked iPhones in the US. Most places tend to either have prices way over the cost of the device ($2000+), or there is a good chance that you will be getting an empty case.

      Don't forget that phones purchased outside the US function on US GSM networks at EDGE speed.

      Oh, CDMA... don't go there. Sprint apparently refuses access to any and all devices unless they sold them, and Verizon is likely the same.

      You post often, but at least cross check facts one of these days.

    43. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by GigaHurtsMyRobot · · Score: 1

      Says the Blackberry fanboi...

    44. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by hjf · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure GSM data (HSDPA) consumes way much more power than wi-fi. My Milestone gets warm after a few minutes of browsing the web with HSDPA and the battery starts to drain really quick. If I browse via Wi-Fi the phone stays cool.

    45. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I stated well known documented fact. Furthermore, assuming a reasonable 3G connection, 3G provides the best byte/power ratio by a wide margin. Meaning, unless you have a poor 3G connection, WIFI is consuming far more power to rx/tx the same data.

      To be clear, and as I tried to express, there certainly are some corner cases where 3G can consume more power, but the signal needs to be so weak, the device is attempting to transmit at maximum power. In this corner case, its possible WIFI will beat 3G, and atypical.

    46. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US has 2 CDMA networks and 2 GSM networks. CDMA networks do not allow unapproved phones on the network (i.e. you have to buy it from the carrier). GSM networks ostensibly allow foriegn phones, but AT&T doesn't support that at all and T-Mobile uses the AWS band for 3G, which no other carrier in the world uses. So if you want 3G you pretty much have to buy a phone from the carrier.

    47. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it's a Nokia. And they have always built absolute crap phones.

      Even in the mid-90s, I remember asking people with crap connections where they were and what kind of phone they were using. If they weren't in butt fuck egypt, they invariably had a Nokia.

    48. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I don't know about Sprint, but Verizon doesn't do that:

      http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/27/verizon-wireless-opens-network-to-any-apps-any-device-in-2008/

      And it's not that hard to order an unlocked iPhone out of Canada, starting at about $550.

      And it's absolutely not true that phones purchased outside the US don't do 3g here. See above-mentioned iPhone from Canada. iPhones from most countries will do 3g in the US.

    49. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my experience, CyanogenMod does have better battery life. In recent nightlies, I recently had one where after 3 days of moderate usage and no charging, I was at 60% on my OG Droid. That was with a good amount of overclocking (1.2GHz) and underclocking under different conditions. Unfortunately, the RC2 and more recent nightlies aren't giving me that same level of benefit (and they're considerably less buggy, so it's a trade-off), but still generally better than I ever got with the stock ROMs (except one of the nightlies that drained it really bad that I used for a few days before the RC2).

    50. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are two android phones in my household and about thirty where I work

      Bulk buy on G1s, but yeah G1 battery life was pretty sucky. Not so with ones like the Nexus One/S.

    51. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So far nothing beats the Blackberry for real-world usage, IMO. Most of the people I know have Android or an iPhone, and they're all in search of charging outlets by early afternoon.

      With all the necessary battery-pulls you have to do on blackberrys every day its always going to seem like the battery lasts longer, it spends as much time out as it does in.

    52. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by hjf · · Score: 1

      I never get a reliable 3G connection anyway. It keeps jumping from H (HSDPA) to 3G (?) to G (GPRS?!), even in downtown areas. Outdoors, of course. Sometimes I get a pretty good data connection and then it suddenly dies. Can't use it at all while moving. I don't know if it's supposed to be like that or if I have a problem with my phone, or what. Many people do use 3G modems to browse the web and these are OK as long as you stay near a window.

    53. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by duguk · · Score: 1

      But it's a Nokia. And they have always built absolute crap phones.

      Mid-90's? You had phones then? I'm not surprised the signal was shit.

      and crap? How so? The 3210 and other range was one of the best selling phones of all time. They don't crash like an Android, fail like an iPhone or the little nipple break off like a Sony Ericsson.

      And its Linux. Sure Nokia's gone to Microsoft now, but its a bloody good phone compared to all the other crap out there now.

    54. Re:Sorry, but my New Year's resolution... by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      I was probably too harsh, but I would have no reason to astroturf. We use both iphones and Android at my shop (small place, 50 people) and both seem to get perfectly good battery life. We are phasing out our Blackberries right now, about half the people are on the aforementioned platforms.

      I really don't have a horse in this race. I take what they give me, but based on my observation this droid phone works just fine battery wise. I did note that my old Blackberry Curve got far better battery life. I just also noted that the battery life on the HTC unit was perfectly acceptible. If I needed more juice I could also just get an extended life battery, but so far (admittedly only about a month since I got it) I haven't found the need.

  3. Waste of money. by bbqsrc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why do they spend so much money locking down the phone instead of making a competitive, lasting product that the consumer actually wants? "They also locked the memory.", what the fuck.

    --
    Disagree != mod troll.
    1. Re:Waste of money. by metalmaster · · Score: 1

      Whose to say the customer doesnt want the product? You're kidding yourself if you think hackers and tinkerers are a large part of any customer base outside dev products.

      The only reason custom firmware and other general modifications have become a mainstream topic is because the minds behind the exploits release tools that are trivial to use. If there wasnt a "power on, point, click" sorta method the majority of people would continue to use the products as they were intended. You want something with added functionality? You try to find something that has that functionality included OEM. By and large, people are going to want a phone with talk, text and data. They dont care if they have to get apps from this market or that one. Side-loading? Whats that?

      Thats not to say I dont appreciate what the hacker community puts out. It's great that they devise methods that are point and click or very detailed and simple to follow. BUT Im genuinely interested in this sorta thing. My neighbor, not so much.

    2. Re:Waste of money. by jimicus · · Score: 2

      I don't think the general public really cares about locked bootloaders. However, they do care about half-decent phones, and IIRC the last half-decent phone Motorola produced that enjoyed any level of popularity on this side of the pond was the Razr.

    3. Re:Waste of money. by bbqsrc · · Score: 1

      I said absolutely nothing about hacking or tinkering, not even insinuated it. It was more of a shot at Motorola for making generally crap products.

      --
      Disagree != mod troll.
    4. Re:Waste of money. by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Actually in Europe the word of mouth regarding the Motorola shennanigans regarding the bootloader spread pretty quickly.
      Add to that that Motorola Europe basically treated their customers like second class citizens regarding updates on the Milestones
      and a bunch of if you dont like the bootloader buy somewhere else comments by the official support over here for the
      following year, and you can see a scheme where the general public became overly frustrated and Motorola quickly
      went from the only decent Android phone available directly straight to the do not buy list in the general public.

      Yes the general public does not care about locked bootloaders, but it starts to care if they have a buggy firmware
      and no possibility for a software update and if you ask the manufacturer you are told, it is either our way or the highway.
      So basically whatever Motorola could do wrongly they did and it pays off for them negatively. The Milestone never became
      more than a mediocre success due to the bad rep it got immediately, and the following models bombed literally.
      I dont think if anyone from Motorola USA is reading this, but they defintiely should do, they just lost a market of
      800 Mio people!

    5. Re:Waste of money. by DrXym · · Score: 2
      The general public really don't give a shit about bootloaders. They're more concerned about how pretty the phone looks, what features it supports, how easy it is to use, how much it costs, and at a push what is the likelihood of long term support for the device. Talk about bootloaders to the average person and their eyes will glaze over. It's simply a non issue.

      Personally I haven't even seen many Motorola devices recently in EU stores which may explain why they're not doing so well. As far as I can tell none of the phone networks here in Ireland (Vodafone, O2, Meteor & Three) carry a single Motorola handset. A few years ago they'd probably have 3 or 4 models apiece. Maybe Motorola has withdrawn from the market, or they're not seen as devices worth selling any more.

    6. Re:Waste of money. by metalmaster · · Score: 1

      The article is about a locked bootloader. Thats something that everyday consumers dont care about unless ofcourse the numpties at customer service hotlines blabber on about it(the case in EU?) It's in the realm of hackers and tinkeres

    7. Re:Waste of money. by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      Motorola have never been very strong in Europe. I personally tried them once (E398), and won't buy from them again in a long time: bad industrial design (the connectors kept getting disconnected, both headset and charger, which is a pain), bad software (USB synch never worked), and bad support (never could get someone to actually try and fix my problems). Such a "perfect" trifecta requires not only a bad product, but a bad company company.

      I hope for them they changed since, but I'm trying out pretty much everyone else before coming back to them, and I'll keep my invoices handy for a refund.

      My current HTC HD2 is very fine and reliable, both the hardware and software sides.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    8. Re:Waste of money. by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      The "general public" may not care, but, before they buy they normally ask those of us who know and do care. When we tell them to avoid a "locked down" phone they probably don't even know what it means, they just know I think it's bad. Previously these people bought HTC instead, now I will direct them elsewhere.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    9. Re:Waste of money. by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      you got it backwards.

      the stores aren't stupid. they don't stock the phones because their shelf space is worth more than the meagre sales they'll get. simply put, other phones will sell better.

      on the issue of bootloaders, that's probably one for market research to determine. i do, however, find the "nobody non-technical cares about anything but how it looks" to be patronizing and wrong, and a reason a good whack of /.ers are embittered bachelors. surprisingly the general public are not as stupid as us nerds like to think. they just have different priorities. ...just saying

    10. Re:Waste of money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is that for some reason carriers and phone makers spend a lot of money to develop those locking solutions... and what does it get them? They'd be more profitable if they simply didn't spend that money at all, or used it to develop features that users actually want.

    11. Re:Waste of money. by DrXym · · Score: 2

      I didn't just say how it looks. I cited several points a typical consumer is interested in - looks, features, ease of use, price, support. The fact a phone is rootable or not is clearly going to be a matter of supreme insignificance for most users. Maybe a few geeks might care (as they might that there is a Linux kernel in some phones). Most users do not.

    12. Re:Waste of money. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      No, the general public doesn't really care about bootloaders, but their geek friends who advise them on what cellphones to buy do. When the majority of geeks say, "Don't buy Motorola phones, they are crap," the general public is much less likely to buy Motorola phones. Even though not everyone has their opinion formed by geeks, enough do to create a market impression. And geeks have been bad mouthing Motorola phones long enough for the general public to get the idea that Motorola phones stink. Admittedly, if Motorola were to come out with a really sharp looking phone with some hot features, they could rapidly overcome this perception.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    13. Re:Waste of money. by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      Because you are not the customer. They do not care about you at all.

      At most you are an annoyance.

      the carriers are their customer.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    14. Re:Waste of money. by inf4mia · · Score: 1

      Whose to say the customer doesnt want the product? You're kidding yourself if you think hackers and tinkerers are a large part of any customer base outside dev products.

      Oh, I don't know about that.
      http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/01/28/unlocked_iphone_sales_as_high_as_40_percent_in_europe_report.html

    15. Re:Waste of money. by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Actually that is just my first hands experience here with the Milestone. A year ago everyone recommended it, but as soon as the people recognized they are not getting bugfix updates or are getting them months behind the USA and as soon as the geek percentage realized the sideway of custom roms also was blocked it straight went into the do not buy list for many. And I have seen more than a handful of negative recommendations regarding Motorola here.
      If anything could have been done wrong with the Milestone it went wrong and Motorola single handedly gave away a potential 800 Mio markets. So to say, the Milestone was Motorolas second chance over here, they blew it big time and actually you now can see a lot of people running around with Android phones but not a single one using a Motorola anymore (it used to be different a year ago)
      I live in europe so this is my first hands experience, yours might differ.
      Motorola still is listed in the various phone telco lists, but no one really buys their phones anymore.

    16. Re:Waste of money. by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Actually the four mistakes Motorola did here in europe
      a) Lock down the milestone and
      b) Do not push out bugfix updates in a timely manner, usually if at all months behind the US by that frustrate the non geek crowd
      c) Lock the bootloader to the general public so that the users cannot fix the firmware themselves and what

      Fourth mistake
      d) Tell your own european users who rightfully ask for an open bootloader so that they can fix the shoddy firmware themselves to make a hike
      and go buy somewhere else (this has happened more than once over here)

      In other words, Motorolas arrogance shot them out of the market, and not just the geek market!

    17. Re:Waste of money. by schoett · · Score: 1
      > the carriers are their customer.

      But in the end, the users pay for the phones. If they don't buy the phones, no money for carrier and manufacturer.

    18. Re:Waste of money. by metalmaster · · Score: 1

      unlocked != open/hackable

      That article is talking about phones sold without a contract. Apple still has strict security policies in place to lock users into their app store. Phones are easily jailbroken, yes. The security is there though

    19. Re:Waste of money. by mcvos · · Score: 1

      I like the Milestone's design quite a lot. If it hadn't been locked down, I would have praised it as the best phone of its generation (2009/2010). It looks good, it can take a lot of abuse, and while the keyboard could have been a lot better it's not awful by any means. But the locked bootloader and Motorola's shitty attitude ruins it.

    20. Re:Waste of money. by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Well you got it backwards, stores stopped carrying motorola phones, because they got such a bad reputation here that no one is buying them.
      Motorola should start asking itself why is that so and can you live without a potential market of 800 Mio people.
      But that will never happen, they have their fist so way up in their buttocks that they have messed up their brain to the degree that they think they are a second sony or apple.

    21. Re:Waste of money. by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Actually the Milestone was quite a success until it became public that motorola supported it only measly compared to the droid and that the bootloader was locked.
      After that it bombed, and the forums are filled literally with angry motorola customers swearing never to buy another motorola device again.

    22. Re:Waste of money. by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Exactly my point. Looked like an excellent phone at first, but made sucky by Motorola's policies. I'll never be buying Motorola again either.

    23. Re:Waste of money. by DrXym · · Score: 1
      I used to contract for Motorola and I remember an email from a VP of something moaning that he noticed people around the office were using non-Motorola phones and how awful it was and we should all feel guilty etc. I felt like replying that maybe he should compare the usability of a Moto phone to one from Nokia before being so quick to judge. This was about 10 years back when Moto phones like Startac looked great but the software was almost unusable. So many buttons, so unforgiving, so arcane. About 5 years later and my advice my wife bought a Razr or something for its looks and while it was tolerable it didn't compare well to other devices. I think Motorola's misfortunes were from bad experiences and word of mouth.

      To be fair I don't think Motorola's Android smart phones are getting bad reviews. They're actually getting good reviews. But the vibe I get is they really don't support their devices very well, and they're quite expensive. As such what's the reason to buy a Motorola phone? That's probably why Moto is sidelined so much these days. I did find Carphone Warehouse in the UK sells a couple of models so they're not completely gone but they may as well be.

  4. Wrong way, go back by axx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sorry, but we shouldn't have to fight teeth and nails to get proper access to devices we buy and own.

    Being locked out of our own legally purchased devices is NOT normal.

    Kind of like buying a computer and not being able to do what you want with it.

    Wait, what is this OSX upgrade you tell me about? Sounds great, and only 29.99!

    --
    No wit here.
    1. Re:Wrong way, go back by mr100percent · · Score: 1

      Are you extending the idea of "I can do what I want with my hardware" to include "I should be able to pirate OSes?" Because you've lost me at that end.

    2. Re:Wrong way, go back by aaron552 · · Score: 1

      There's a fine line between "should be able to" and "legally allowed to", but it makes all the difference.

      --
      I had a sig once. It was lost in the great storm of '09.
    3. Re:Wrong way, go back by ne0n · · Score: 1

      axx made no mention of any desire to pirate OSes, and there's nothing to imply anybody wants to pirate an already-free OS in the original article.. did you know that Android is free of charge btw?

      --
      $ :(){ :|:& };:
    4. Re:Wrong way, go back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then why the mention of OSX?

    5. Re:Wrong way, go back by ledow · · Score: 2

      "Being locked out of our own legally purchased devices is NOT normal."

      Ever tried to access the air-bag controller on your car? Ever flashed your ECU and then expect the manufacturer to cover the consequences? Ever bought software that was reliant on a hardware dongle? Ever bought a large dedicated device (like a specialist microscope) that comes with some ancient MacOS version on the controller PC that you can never touch or upgrade without voiding the whole setup? What about trying to make a replacement RF car door opener for your car? Or tap into the security systems to code your own keys? Or break the radio's security code so you can install it in a car other than your own?

      There are a million devices and parts of devices you can't play with. The difference is that you VOLUNTARILY bought the device with the knowledge that you couldn't play with those things (or in the case of modded ECU's etc. that you would never receive support for them and may be locked out). Hell, some high-end cars have tyres that "talk to" the car so they know exactly when you fitted a third-party component so they can void your warranty.

      Don't buy crap that does this if you don't want crap that does this. No "There's nothing else" or "it's an industry-standard" or whatever excuses - STOP BUYING IT. Then you have no cause to moan and manufacturers have cause to stop doing it.

      Chances are that even if you and everyone you know stopped buying it, nothing will happen either. But at least you wouldn't be party to the stuff that you are complaining about, and thus become a hypocrite.

      If you bought a device and it's "faulty" in this way, take it through the courts and see how far you get. If you *don't* fall down at the very first hurdle ("You accepted the purchase agreement and paid for it") I'll be very surprised, but then you'll have YEARS of fighting to get to the point where the court agrees with you (e.g. PS3 OtherOS removal class action). And to get a precedent-setting case where manufacturers stop doing it, you would need huge proportions of the purchasers fighting for it. And, yes, you would need to be a purchaser.

      Or you could just not buy that crap and buy something that works how you want, not how you imagine it should.

    6. Re:Wrong way, go back by Kludge · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ever flashed your ECU and then expect the manufacturer to cover the consequences? ... Ever bought a large dedicated device (like a specialist microscope) that comes with some ancient MacOS version on the controller PC that you can never touch or upgrade without voiding the whole setup? ... Hell, some high-end cars have tyres that "talk to" the car so they know exactly when you fitted a third-party component so they can void your warranty.

      The GP poster is not asking for the companies to cover his device when he installs something new on it. Warranties are made to be voided. He is just saying that they should stop trying to control him so that he can not install what he wants.

    7. Re:Wrong way, go back by ChrisMP1 · · Score: 1

      Ever tried to access the air-bag controller on your car? Ever flashed your ECU and then expect the manufacturer to cover the consequences? Ever bought software that was reliant on a hardware dongle? Ever bought a large dedicated device (like a specialist microscope) that comes with some ancient MacOS version on the controller PC that you can never touch or upgrade without voiding the whole setup? What about trying to make a replacement RF car door opener for your car? Or tap into the security systems to code your own keys? Or break the radio's security code so you can install it in a car other than your own?

      With the exception of the software/dongle, those are all parts. If I buy a device, I expect full control over the device's main functionality. The purpose of a car is to drive somewhere; I can drive my car anywhere. The purpose of a microscope is to look at things; I can look at whatever I want. The purpose of a smartphone is to make calls and run software; I can only do one of those freely.

      --
      <sig>&nbsp;</sig>
    8. Re:Wrong way, go back by Linker3000 · · Score: 1
      --
      AT&ROFLMAO
    9. Re:Wrong way, go back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hm. Or I could install Linux, and still do what I want with it.

      Unless there's the off chance that I prefer OS X to Linux. But that would be blasphemy! Blasphemy, I say! Preferring a better user experience to the ability to tinker, even though the better user experience comes with the ability to tinker with most things anyway!

    10. Re:Wrong way, go back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't drive your car past a certain speed without flashing your ECU. In my mind, that maps pretty directly to `the device's main functionality'.

    11. Re:Wrong way, go back by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but we shouldn't have to fight teeth and nails to get proper access to devices we buy and own.

      Being locked out of our own legally purchased devices is NOT normal.

      Kind of like buying a computer and not being able to do what you want with it.

      With your computer you actually paid the entire cost of its manufacture yourself at the checkout without any subsidy. With things like consoles and phones most people pay less than the actual cost of its manufacture, with someone else subsidising it in some way. In the case of a console the subsidy is dealt with internally by the manufacturer of the console. In the case of a phone the subsidy is paid by the carrier.

      For phones you basically end up renting more than buying in most cases. You usually have to sign up for a minimum term of 1-2 years, and in return for that they throw in a free or heavily discounted phone that you can upgrade for free at the end of that 1 or 2 years. This is a very different business model to the one you bought your home PC under, so expecting it to give you the same freedom is not very realistic.

      As I have said in a previous post above, most people want a subsidised cheaper device with a little less freedom rather than pay the full upfront cost of buying a phone outright.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    12. Re:Wrong way, go back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silly thing. You are on a regulated carrier on cell networks. You don't "own" that.

      Que obligatory non sensical Apple comment that has nothing to do with the subject. Proves you are a child and a fool..

    13. Re:Wrong way, go back by Homburg · · Score: 1

      You usually have to sign up for a minimum term of 1-2 years, and in return for that they throw in a free or heavily discounted phone that you can upgrade for free at the end of that 1 or 2 years. This is a very different business model to the one you bought your home PC under, so expecting it to give you the same freedom is not very realistic.

      The thing is, though, that you've signed a contract - you're going to be paying the carrier for two years no matter what you do with the phone, so why do the carriers care?

    14. Re:Wrong way, go back by sjames · · Score: 1

      Although most have no interest, you can and a number of people DO modify the ECU. Some even replace the entire engine. Changed out rims and tires are common.

      They don't expect warranty service on the modified parts, but that's a separate issue.

    15. Re:Wrong way, go back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OSX has a better UX than Ubuntu? I've used both and Ubuntu is much better than OSX in several categories, including "ability to easily set up on my machine".

    16. Re:Wrong way, go back by axx · · Score: 1

      I don't know who the law works in your country but in mine, when I buy a good, I own it.
      I'm not leasing it, I'm not loaning or renting it, I'm buying it.

      That the company offering a service to go with said good is using a imaginative way to finance its low sal price is not relevant.
      And anyway, given the fact one pays around 6€ a month to pay back the phone subsidy, one still very much pays for the phone. It's just stretched out over a longer period of time, making most people believe they are getting it cheap.

      And for anyone still interested, the OSX comment was a/ a jab at the fact that actually, lots of people are perfectly content with a computer that will not let you do what you want with it, eg: upcoming Apple Macs that will stop you from installing anything that doesn't come from the App Store, and b/ a reference as properly pointed out by Linker3000.

      --
      No wit here.
    17. Re:Wrong way, go back by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      You usually have to sign up for a minimum term of 1-2 years, and in return for that they throw in a free or heavily discounted phone that you can upgrade for free at the end of that 1 or 2 years. This is a very different business model to the one you bought your home PC under, so expecting it to give you the same freedom is not very realistic.

      The thing is, though, that you've signed a contract - you're going to be paying the carrier for two years no matter what you do with the phone, so why do the carriers care?

      Because rooting your phone often enables things like tethering your phone to a PC or letting it run as a wifi access point. This lets you use far more bandwidth than you would if you were just using the phone. Since most of the carriers forbid you from tethering your phone in this manner in the contract they generally want the software installed on the phone to also enforce this.

      In my case, this is one of the most useful features of having a smartphone.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
  5. let it be free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the smartphone is mine, please don't restrict absolutely nothing

    1. Re:let it be free by aaron552 · · Score: 2

      so... you want the smartphone manufacturers to restrict something, at least?

      --
      I had a sig once. It was lost in the great storm of '09.
    2. Re:let it be free by peragrin · · Score: 1

      what about radio frequencies? should those be restricted? Do you know how trivial it really would be for a a virus to turn a cell phone into a cell phone jammer? In order to get the most flexibility some things have to be done in software however that flexibility comes at a price. your walking around with a cell phone jammer all it needs to do is a few software tweaks.

      should that be allowed too? you don't want anything restricted right?

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    3. Re:let it be free by silanea · · Score: 2

      Every phone should offer two modes of operation: One that is locked down by the manufacturer making him liable for any malfunction, and one that removes all the locks and limits and shifts liability to the user. That way everyone would be happy.

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    4. Re:let it be free by peragrin · · Score: 1

      and if that user(or a virus that was only able to work because of changes the user made) then accidentally turns their phone into a jammer, should he be liable too when someone else can't call emergency services and someone dies as a result?

      We expect phones to work as phones 100% of the time.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    5. Re:let it be free by silanea · · Score: 2

      Of course they should be liable! If you tinker with your car and thereby cause an accident you are liable for any damages, not the manufacturer. If your "off-the-shelf" car displays a fault that leads to an accident the manufacturer is held responsible. We already have rules for all possible scenarios.

      I am dumbstruck as to why the mere act of adding software to an already existing, well explained and satisfyingly regulated problem suddenly makes everything so complicated and somehow "special". Whether it is online fraud, phishing, liability for software errors, child pornography, terrorism - we already have several cubic LoC in laws and regulations for all of that. It just is not explicitly called online x, or x using a computer.

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    6. Re:let it be free by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Because 99% of the population can't keep viruses off their desktop computers, why do you think they are smart enough to keep them off their cell phones.

      if software in a car causes it to crash and kill people liablity goes back to the manufacture, however if your tinkering with your phone and the liablity comes down on you personally because you installed the next version of angry birds free from a random link on a website, and that version contained a trojan. You are now liable for murder for installing a game for your kids(or yourself).

      People can't keep their desktop's and laptop virus free. do you really want the equivalnt of the slammer virus going around on cell phones shutting down huge parts of the cell network?

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    7. Re:let it be free by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      What about guns? Do you know how trivial it is to mow down 6 or more people with one handgun? In your worldview I wouldnt even be allowed to have a gun, becasue i MIGHT kill people with it. And yes, if I want to turn my cell phone in to a jammer that should be allowed. What should not be allowed is me USING it.

      --
      Good-bye
    8. Re:let it be free by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      Grow up. Arguing with you is like talking to a 3rd grader. You have absolutely no clue regarding liability, freedom or tinkering. Take your nanny state ideas and shove them up your ass.

      --
      Good-bye
    9. Re:let it be free by makomk · · Score: 1

      what about radio frequencies? should those be restricted? Do you know how trivial it really would be for a a virus to turn a cell phone into a cell phone jammer?

      Not trivial at all. The radio firmware on smartphones - which controls use of the radio transmitter and does all the GSM/UTMS/... protocol stuff - runs on an entirely seperate processor to the operating system, with its own independent tamper protection that doesn't rely on the OS. Usually the protection on the radio hardware is much tighter too. When smartphone manufacturers lock down what OS image software you run, it's not to protect the cell network, it's only to protect their own profits.

      In fact, it'd probably be much, much easier to take down the cellphone network with a cheap dumbphone - they run the radio firmware on the same CPU as the OS and don't have nearly as much protection against code modification.

    10. Re:let it be free by silanea · · Score: 1

      do you really want the equivalnt of the slammer virus going around on cell phones shutting down huge parts of the cell network?

      Actually, yes, that would be awesome! It certainly would do more for improving the security and stability of our communication networks and devices than any locking down done to a select few handsets.

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    11. Re:let it be free by peragrin · · Score: 1

      And you believe anarchy is a good model for the future.

      I don't want a nanny state. No one has offered a better option yet. Right now the number of iphone viruses out there only attack jail broken phones. For Android which never get updates(something like 80% of android phone models never get updates) because the manufactures don't care once they have your money. You then become reliant on programmers who don't care that you have a mid level phone, since they don't have it it doesn't matter.

      As for liability, independent developers on XDA don't care. the moment you flash on new firmware your warranty is voided and you took responsibility for any and all problems in the future. If I was HTC, or Motorola I wouldn't bother with the expensive lock downs. I would build a small text file that only wrote when the system was flashed, and write down version numbers. a simple reader and anyone who flashes the file with version numbers other than what you published is denied all warranty. That way tinkers can tinker but if they fuck up it is their own fault.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    12. Re:let it be free by mlts · · Score: 1

      Take a look at the Nexus platform for how this is to be handled elegantly with the fastboot oem unlock method. Why is this the best way for handling this I have seen?

      1: It requires the user to at least install ADB software. This can be on Linux, OS X, or Windows. Installing this shows at least some competency of unzipping an archive and running a command.

      2: The user is presented with a "one cannot simply walk into Mordor" dialog, stating that their warranty is about to go the way of the dinosaurs, and that unless they are deliberately ready to zap every single bit off their phone, to turn around before it is too late. The warning is obvious enough that even Joe Sixpack who is following the directions from a sleazy offshore website in order to download a "porn viewer" onto his Android device would realize that this might not be a good idea, especially losing all the stored info on the device.

      3: Once past the dialog, the device erases itself, and the user can do whatever he or she wants with it. No DRM, no signed bootloaders. Just have fun.

  6. Getting worse? by mr100percent · · Score: 2

    It seems these DRM schemes are getting harder and harder to break as the manufacturers are learning from the unlocking community. The iPhone hasn't had an unlock for iOS 4.1, 4.2, and 4.3 yet due to Apple closing more security holes and implementing new checksums. (Anyone who has an unlocked iPhone for 4.1 and 4.2 is doing a hacked form of upgrade that prevents a full firmware/baseband upgrade, but new buyers are completely out of luck)

    It seems like the rooting/jailbreaking/unlocking/modchipping community kinda small; a few geniuses figure it out and publish it in a handy software package for the rest. What does this mean for the future, will the locking/DRM powers outpace them?

    1. Re:Getting worse? by Nerdfest · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hopefully it will mean sales going down for phones that are crippled, and up for those that are not. As usual, spread the word about which phones to buy. The manufacturers will only respond to lost sales (and some of them are a little too dense even for that it seems).

    2. Re:Getting worse? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Well, duh. It's an arms race. The computer companies learn from their mistakes and do it better next time. The really good ones think like a pirate and use misleading techniques to secure their property. Eventually they'll have pretty good security that resists most attempts at tampering. Then pirates will move on to other, more rewarding areas of study.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    3. Re:Getting worse? by pmontra · · Score: 1

      Maybe. Only a few geeks and nerds care about bootloaders but they can tell friends "don't buy that because you won't be able to install that app that requires rooting/jailbreaking". Chances are that locked down phones will sale some units less than non locked down ones. But manufacturers might get more than that money back if locking down is appreciated by phone operators. If that's the case, locking down might make the difference between having a phone subsidized by an operator or not and that impacts heavily the number of sold units and manufacturer's revenues.

      That said, I'll buy only a phone that I can unlock.

    4. Re:Getting worse? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Let me give you an analogy.

      "Do not buy an MP3 player - you can only listen to music that's available on MP3 or been ripped from CD. Instead, you should buy a bunch of musical instruments and then you can listen to whatever you like."

      Anyone who you say that to will give you very funny looks. Then they'll point out things like "I don't want to learn to play an instrument. And besides - only listen to what's on CD or MP3? So I'm limited to.... well, I'm not really, am I?"

      And so it is with locked down phones. "So if I go for an iPhone, I'm limited to what's in the app store - and if I want something that isn't in the app store, that's tough? Big deal. There's thousands of things in the app store, very little worth having that isn't."

      "I can't upgrade it whenever I like? By the time a version of comes out that I want to upgrade to but can't, the phone will be worn out from being used every day for 2 years, I'll be at the end of my contract and eligible for a heavily subsidised upgrade to the latest model. So again, I don't see why I should care."

    5. Re:Getting worse? by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 2

      If you can't get Angry Birds on the phone you're recommending, you're not going to win anyone over.

      Jo Sixpack / Jane Peroxide don't care about your open platform. They don't care about homebrew, tracking, licensing, DRM, locked bootloaders ("Is that like a shoehorn?") or any other of that stuff which matters to you and me. They want to play Scrabble and update their bookface status with twatter. Don't kid yourself that it's any different.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    6. Re:Getting worse? by jonwil · · Score: 1

      What surprises me is that Apple hasn't modified iOS 4.x so that it will refuse to run unless its running alongside the correct baseband, thus preventing the "upgrade but dont upgrade the baseband" trick.

    7. Re:Getting worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. The iPhone has had a 4.1 untethered jailbreak for a while now. It has also had a 4.2.1 untethered jailbreak since February. Also note, the jailbreak works for more than just the iPhone. 2 seconds of Googling would have landed you here..

    8. Re:Getting worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then SKILLED CONSUMERS will move on to other, LESS rewarding areas of study.

      Fixed that for you.

    9. Re:Getting worse? by mr100percent · · Score: 1

      Jailbreak != Unlock. GP said unlock.

    10. Re:Getting worse? by Rennt · · Score: 1

      Trust me, no consumer likes being told a manufacturer forbids them using their devices a certain way in order to milk them for more cash. Even if they never planned on doing any of the forbidden things in the first place.

    11. Re:Getting worse? by LoganDzwon · · Score: 1

      I believe they do. As I understand it, the hacked firmware, (without the baseband upgrader,) is also hacked to allow the older firmware. That noted... iPhone is the only smart phone in the US of whom the end user is the consumer of the manufacture. All the other smart phones are bought by carriers.

    12. Re:Getting worse? by peragrin · · Score: 1

      And that's the difference right there. Apple will provide you with software support and patches for 2-3 years that will work.

      Motorola, HTC, Samsung, give varing levels of support depending on how many units sold. the flag ship line might get 2 years, but you are lucky to get a single update to other phones. Or those updates are blocked by the carrier.

      The carriers need to be locked out of phones other than sim cards. I was going to get an Atrix, but seeing how crippled it is because of AT&T I am changing my mind.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    13. Re:Getting worse? by silanea · · Score: 1

      "I can't upgrade it whenever I like? By the time a version of comes out that I want to upgrade to but can't, the phone will be worn out from being used every day for 2 years, I'll be at the end of my contract and eligible for a heavily subsidised upgrade to the latest model. So again, I don't see why I should care."

      I got my current phone (Nokia E65) in 2007. Apart from a broken display which cost me 12 € to repair and the scratched case which I do not care about the phone is perfectly fine. The contract I am on is older than that, though. 2003 at the latest.

      I certainly am not representative of the majority of users, but not everyone treats their mobile phones and contracts as throw-away items. And not everyone takes subsidised phones.

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    14. Re:Getting worse? by mr100percent · · Score: 1

      I don't think so. TinyUmbrella works by interrupting the upgrade process in iTunes, after iTunes upgrades the OS it tries to contact Apple to verify the signature on the upgrade. TinyUmbrella blocks the connection to Apple's server, so iTunes aborts the baseband upgrade with a temporarily bricked phone and an iTunes error 1013. All you do next is put the iPhone in DFU mode and finish the jailbreak and then activate the phone.

    15. Re:Getting worse? by slim · · Score: 1

      I refer m'learned friend to the millions of iPhone users.

      Including many who post right here on Slashdot to protest that they don't care one jot what Apple prevents them from doing.

    16. Re:Getting worse? by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      It seems like the rooting/jailbreaking/unlocking/modchipping community kinda small; a few geniuses figure it out and publish it in a handy software package for the rest. What does this mean for the future, will the locking/DRM powers outpace them?

      Besides the challenge, what's the point of wasting time "jailbreaking" a device nobody cares about? If the vast majority of Apple's customers prefer playing in a locked down garden, so be it. Time is much better spent on working on devices whose users care about openness than those who don't.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    17. Re:Getting worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But only retarded nerds care about that. The rest of us just enjoy what we can unlock, and literally do not care about what we can't because we know about it when we buy the product.

    18. Re:Getting worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh? both 4.1 and 4.2 have been broken by green poison 4.1 ages ago! Am I misunderstanding you?

    19. Re:Getting worse? by tepples · · Score: 1

      They want to play Scrabble and update their bookface status with twatter.

      Then try a different strategy: name five games or other apps that might interest them but are not available on the official store.

    20. Re:Getting worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ever thought the programmer that makes DRM software in his day job might actually be writing exploits/hacks/jailbreaks at night ? there are lots more Neo then you think , their capability to hire and pay programers is limited by their wallet , the community is growing both in number and skills exept we are not limited by financials , and the best publicity are the custom rom ,building my first one from source, for a few days now and i call this a hobby

    21. Re:Getting worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      quote :
      ""I can't upgrade it whenever I like? By the time a version of comes out that I want to upgrade to but can't, the phone will be worn out from being used every day for 2 years, I'll be at the end of my contract and eligible for a heavily subsidised upgrade to the latest model. So again, I don't see why I should care."

      huh...... maybe because i'm able to run (nicely) gingerbread on my Hero ? remove all the bloatware telco's are putting on phones and you will find a much much more capable handset but ....oh yeah , need root for that

      not to say that i didn't got myself a DHD a few months back (could'nt write a tweak to increase the screen size.....damn HTC! )

    22. Re:Getting worse? by mlts · · Score: 1

      This is a good question:

      The true sign of this will be when it takes longer for the de-crapifying [1] the hardware than it takes for the next model to come out. For example, Apple did learn about the unpublished hardware exploit and patched it so it didn't work in the iPad 2.

      Once the device gets so old, it really has no use, that will be the turning point. I am pessimistic; Most people are cattle and will just shrug and deal with the tightening restrictions in return for new gewgaws on the device.

      [1]: Rooting/JB-ing/unlocking/modding can be easily summed up by de-crapifying, because it is exactly this.

    23. Re:Getting worse? by mlts · · Score: 1

      What shows that we are near the tipping point is the PS3. It remained unbroken for a long time (4+ years, an almost unheard of amount of time), and the one person who cracks it wide open is being made an example of by Sony's legal team.

      Yes, devices will be cracked, but there will become a time where it takes so much time to do so, that it becomes irrelevant. For example, if it took 2-3 years to find a workable JB on the iPhone, and by then, people have upgraded to at least two models hence, victory has been accomplished by the cellular carriers.

    24. Re:Getting worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not the jailbreak, but the Unlock that is being held up

    25. Re:Getting worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looks to me like the carriers are really wanting people to move to prepaid plans. With their attitude towards the consumer, the all-in-one phone+devices is being stripped of the utility of devices. (At least from a cost-to-consumer value standpoint.) So in other words, it's better in the long run to have a phone that's just a phone and other dedicated devices that allow for much greater freedom.

      Why pay $160/mo for some phone with an media player when it costs a whole lot extra for the media player part while internet services providing the same service cost much less. Downloading via Netflix and having that on a separate media player is cheaper.

      If you're going to use a separate media player, get a phone that's just a phone. In which case if you're going to have a phone that's just a phone, it really makes sense to pay $100/yr + cost for extra minutes on a prepaid plan. (So you're really getting a whole year of service for what covered one month previously.) And use whatever you save on that for a whole lotta lotta movie playing on your separate device. Of course you give up the convenience of being able to download media and apps whenever, but look at the extra cash in your pocket and not in some telecoms.

    26. Re:Getting worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Anyone who has an unlocked iPhone for 4.1 and 4.2 is doing a hacked form of upgrade that prevents a full firmware/baseband upgrade, but new buyers are completely out of luck)

      In many (most?) European countries, iPhone is now available without any operator lock, so I think there's less demand for a baseband unlock hack nowadays. Jailbreaking is still fun for tinkerers, but doesn't quite add as much value anymore.

    27. Re:Getting worse? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      If you can't get Angry Birds on the phone you're recommending, you're not going to win anyone over.

      So recommend Android phones, just not the locked ones (e.g. Nexus S).

    28. Re:Getting worse? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Or more to the point, tell friends "if you want me to help you make your phone actually sorta cool, don't get this one".

    29. Re:Getting worse? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Tell them they can only play MP3s they buy in the MP3 store, not from those other stores, not rips from CDs, and not from their friend's band, and they might start objecting.

    30. Re:Getting worse? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      To that end, I'll tell you my philosophy. I'll room my phone the moment it doesn't do something I want without rooting it. I know people who root their phones just so they can root their phone. That is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't serve any purpose I can see, short of being a "1337" script kiddy.

      And I'm starting to look into rooting my phone to get 2.3 installed on it. I doubt that Motorolla is going to ship 2.3 for my phone.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    31. Re:Getting worse? by Microlith · · Score: 1

      That is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't serve any purpose I can see, short of being a "1337" script kiddy.

      So is your opinion of anyone who uses Linux and has access to the root account that they are a "1337 script kiddy"?

      Or does the fact that the device fits in your pocket and can take phone calls somehow magically change everything?

    32. Re:Getting worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      victory has been accomplished by the cellular carriers.

      No, because I didn't buy one. By the time Apple got their device working (and by "Apple" I really third parties that Apple considers hostile), the iPhone was obsolete.

      If it's jailed, then it's defective, and that means no sale. Not only have I not bought one, but I also haven't released software for it, so my users aren't buying them either. Apple's handheld PC isn't ready yet.

    33. Re:Getting worse? by mjwx · · Score: 1

      If you can't get Angry Birds on the phone you're recommending, you're not going to win anyone over.

      Jo Sixpack / Jane Peroxide don't care about your open platform. They don't care about homebrew, tracking, licensing, DRM, locked bootloaders ("Is that like a shoehorn?") or any other of that stuff which matters to you and me. They want to play Scrabble and update their bookface status with twatter. Don't kid yourself that it's any different.

      Despite the part about Angry Brids not being true (very few phones are used for games, most are used for communication, nitendo DS's are used for games) you've stumbled blindly upon the truth and why unlocked bootloaders are important, if indirectly to the average person.

      The best phone is not the fastest, the one with the best UI marketing, the one with the most fanboys or the one with the tightest controls. Like all other computing platforms the best phone is the one that does everything you need it to. A device does or does not and no-one wants a device that falls into the "does not" catagory.

      This is why openness is important, Apple is losing marketshare to Android because Android does where Apple does not. Openness ensures that even if something "does not" by default, it can be made to "do". Windows ironically is proof of this, MS made DOS (and Windows) so anything will run on top of it when other manufacturers were still pushing locked down systems.

      So the average person does care about locked bootloaders, they just don't know about it.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    34. Re:Getting worse? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      I use Linux. It serves a purpose. Rooting something to gain more features is, as I thought I said, good. However, most people I know, who have rooted their phone, did it for the sole purpose of ... rooting their phone. In other words, they rooted their phone to sound "1337", when in reality, all they are are Script Kiddies.

      I have all the admiration in the world for the guys going about rooting phones to figure out how to root phones, putting together nice little utilities to root the phone. You know, those actually doing the research.

      AND, if you looked at the context of the paragraph you quoted from, it clearly was in context of people who root their phones using tools provided by others who did the research and hard work, for the sole purpose of looking cool, ie "1337". In other words, you're probably one of those people who rooted your phone so you can say "I rooted my phone", without a clue what to do with a rooted phone. And when it breaks, you'll run to the nearest forum an cry like a baby that your $400 phone is now a brick.

      For me, my phone is a tool, not a toy (I don't have Angry Birds installed, nor am I likely to). I don't want to fuss with it instead of solving bigger problems at work. I know I can "root" my phone, I have the required skill set to do it. I might even be able to justify it one day.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    35. Re:Getting worse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You (and most /. readers) understand this, and won't buy it. However, because Biff Spraytan [1] and Jane Peroxide will be all over the device, the device makers really don't care.

      Finding a device for clued people without restrictions is just becoming more and more difficult. The only devices that are worth the time these days are Google's developer phones (the two ADP models, and the Nexus ones.)

  7. Money of the provider. by leuk_he · · Score: 3, Insightful

    With a locked phone they can give the provider control over the phone (read: appstore ), and the telecom provider. I think Motorola hopes to make extra money from the provider instead of the consumer.

    You are right, if consumers wanted a closed phone they would have bought a iPhone. an android phone is NOT a closed environment, and locking one part down in an open environment leaves a mediocre (in comparison) product.

    1. Re:Money of the provider. by Kvasio · · Score: 0

      what HTC does makes iPhone feel like an open env

    2. Re:Money of the provider. by Rennt · · Score: 1

      Give it a rest! Cyanogenmod - which is ported to every phone the community CAN port it to, so is a good a yard stick as any - is supported on 17 HTC phones, 2 Samsung Phones, and one Motorola phone.

      Either HTC are OK with it people hacking their devices or they are completely incompetent - but either way the facts just don't jive with your statement.

    3. Re:Money of the provider. by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      HTC were okay with people hacking their devices for years, but it seems that they have changed their stance.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    4. Re:Money of the provider. by Rennt · · Score: 1

      That's what I'm hearing, but I don't see it. The G2 and Desire HD are both current flagship phones and they are both supported.

    5. Re:Money of the provider. by headbulb · · Score: 1

      Go back and look at the irc logs that the dev's were on. It took quite a bit to free those devices.

    6. Re:Money of the provider. by teh31337one · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Just because they're supported by cyanogenmod doesn't magically make them dev friendly.

    7. Re:Money of the provider. by afidel · · Score: 1

      Except no carrier I'm aware of has their own Android app store, Sprint gives me a Sprint channel which highlights their offerings but all the apps that are available on the Google run app store can be downloaded or bought. I can't imagine even Verizon would want the work of screening tens of thousands of apps if Google is already doing the work.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    8. Re:Money of the provider. by mcvos · · Score: 1

      With a locked phone they can give the provider control over the phone (read: appstore ), and the telecom provider. I think Motorola hopes to make extra money from the provider instead of the consumer.

      Exactly, and that's the real problem here: to Motorola, we aren't the customer. Networks are. They want us to take a hike. There's no reason for us to want Motorola phones. They're forgetting where the money comes from, and deserve to go bankrupt for their backwards business decisions.

    9. Re:Money of the provider. by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Either HTC are OK with it people hacking their devices or they are completely incompetent.

      From hacking my HTC desire Z (took about 2 hours to get Cyanogen mod on there), HTC are making it just hard enough to make sure you know what you are doing. From HTC's perspective you would want two things, first not to piss off your smarter customers as these are the people who will be asked for opinions and second, not to piss off your dumber customers by making the phone easy to brick (which is only really possible during the rooting and bootloader replacing part).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  8. Why the hell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why can't you use your own phone as you please, even more so if it's Android, an open platform?

    The only reason I can think of is piracy, which seems to be the justification for everything nowadays.

    Seriously, this is a genuine question, not some sort of philosophy.

    1. Re:Why the hell? by mrclisdue · · Score: 1

      Yes, piracy is responsible for everything.

      B-b-but, what about piracy's children? Can we not think of them?

      cheers,

    2. Re:Why the hell? by gatzke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There may be network issues. Just like the FCC regulates what you do with your wifi antenna. Yes, you can get into your router and up the power on your wifi router, but I think it violates some regulations. I am not a EE, but I bet if you up the power it may screw up other frequencies.

      For a cell phone, imagine if you started spewing crap packages on their network? Or somehow masked your id and got free service? They don't want people exploiting their network, which I understand.

      Ideally they would put all the magic in hardware, then let your OS do whatever you want. Have the cellular radio chip handle everything, so the OS can just interface to it so the network is protected and you can't scam a fake ID. Then you could do whatever you want, like run up cell bills for running over your cap using p2p.

    3. Re:Why the hell? by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      "Terrorism," "piracy," and "think of the children" are excuses that the average person just seems to accept.

      "There was a terrorist attack!? Maybe you should take away some of our rights that we claim we are better for having so that we can have a false sense of security! That couldn't ever be abused by a corrupt government! Humans can't ever make mistakes when they are given unchecked powers!"

      "Oh, you implemented this strict and annoying DRM scheme because of pirates? It's all their fault even though you're the one who implemented it and it's completely ineffective against them! Take all of the features in your product away to 'battle' hypothetical pirates!"

      "A child could get hurt, but probably won't!? You better ban that product/practice immediately! Banning something to 'save' an extremely small portion of the population is a completely intelligent decision!"

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    4. Re:Why the hell? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Why can't you use your own phone as you please, even more so if it's Android, an open platform?

      The only reason I can think of is piracy, which seems to be the justification for everything nowadays.

      Seriously, this is a genuine question, not some sort of philosophy.

      I suspect it's got less to do with piracy and more to do with customer returns. These phones are fundamentally consumer items, and like most consumer items a high level of returns is an absolute killer for your profits.

      Phone shops aren't really set up to deal with phones that have been significantly messed around. They can reload the software from a PC provided there's enough of the firmware left on the phone to support this, but that's about it. Combine a burgeoning community of hackers who are turning re-flashing a phone with an unsupported firmware from being pretty damn awkward to a point-click-done task (and thus appealing to many more people), the likelihood of such flashes putting the phone beyond the help of your local phone store and the fact that malware for Android has already been seen in the wild and suddenly the idea of a phone which cannot easily be messed around with starts to look quite attractive.

      Sure, you can adopt a policy of "unsupported firmware, it's your problem", but this doesn't deal with the malware issue (malware's made it into the android marketplace before now) and you'd need to examine each phone coming in to check that it hadn't been reloaded with unsupported firmware.

    5. Re:Why the hell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the networks want you to use their apps, not necessarily the apps you want. They may not want you changing the search engine, for example, because one search provider is paying them to be their search engine.

      Bottom line - money.

    6. Re:Why the hell? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      That's pretty much how it works AFAICT, so good guess. But the lock down in phone OS can't really be explained away by the lockdown in the radio units, otherwise open units would be more or less illegal, and I don't see the FCC going after Nokia for the N900, or google for the nexus phones.

    7. Re:Why the hell? by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Also, and I think this is the main reason: pressure from the providers.
      Here in the US, it's about impossible to get a phone that hasn't been locked to a provider, and crippled.
      When the provider gets a cut for every app you buy through the "sanctioned" channels, can charge outrageous fees for music services and ringtones, and can charge you an outrageous amount of money for things like international calls and would lose that money if you could call through apps like Skype, well then the provider also would like the phones to be locked down.

      And unfortunately, too few people buy neverlocked phones for the direct-to-consumer sales to matter much. Almost all of them buy provider-locked phones, whether they are still locked or have been unlocked. So guess where the manufacturer's business focus is.

      Yes, it's all about money. But not so much about piracy as just plain greed.

    8. Re:Why the hell? by icebraining · · Score: 1

      GSM (and probably CDMA) modules, as far as I know, already implement the protocol in separate chips. And you can't simply fake an ID like changing a MAC address, they use cryptographic authentication.

      Besides, plenty of cellphones have been sold - and still are - without such protection, nor they care to implement them.

    9. Re:Why the hell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you ARE a troll. no it's not about piracy for most of us.. it's about loading the software we want/need on the phone.. it's about not being locked into one vendor's shitty 'app' store.. it's about controlling/owning the things you buy.

    10. Re:Why the hell? by icebraining · · Score: 1

      They already managed to pass a tethering app disguised as a flashlight through the Apple Store review process. I really doubt they can't pass through a trojan. Just disguise it as an app that needs to access the web for a valid reason but that in fact is calling home to know if it should activate the trojan or not. Then you simply flip the switch on the server once it's approved.

    11. Re:Why the hell? by WorBlux · · Score: 2

      Most home routers broadcast at 56- 87 milliwats, where 1 watt is the allowed max. The hardware will literally cook itself before you could violate any sort of FCC regulation with it.

    12. Re:Why the hell? by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      Most cellular data networks converge with their landline networks almost immediately. If it were possible/desirable to "throw crap packets" or "exploit" their network, I believe their DSL customers would pose a much bigger threat. Most of these phones REQUIRE the user to get an unlimited data package when you purchase them.

    13. Re:Why the hell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      As an observation, it should be noted that NOTHING of what they've done up to this point has honestly prevented anything like spewing packets on their network. The malware that got onto the phones through the app stores managed this all on it's own very nicely- and saying that this is a good reason for Apple's walled garden approach, is wrong as well as they had their malware incidents too.

      Protecting their network isn't the reason.

    14. Re:Why the hell? by YoopDaDum · · Score: 1

      That's how it works already. The protocol stack runs on a separate chip with its own dedicated CPU (or CPUs) and its own firmware image. So you only need to secure this firmware to secure the telecom network. The only reason to also lock the application CPU is to provide to the operator or device maker more control on the separate application environment, for their benefit.

      The ideal system would have a locked down access chip (to protect usage of the operator spectrum, you don't want unchecked hacking here) and an open application CPU (or CPUs). This is what OpenMocko did, and the application CPU(s) would be as open as the PC today. But that's not the trend today. Maybe a reason not to dismiss the N950 (or however it will be called).

    15. Re:Why the hell? by RobbieThe1st · · Score: 1

      That sounds like a major problem in the bootloader, then.
      My N900 is basically -impossible- to perminately brick: Worst case, you plug it into USB, run the flasher utility and it will boot entirely off that flasher utility(cold flashing), allowing for a proper flash even when there's no software left.
      This also makes it easy for phone shops: No matter what's been done to it, it can easily be wiped back to stock.

    16. Re:Why the hell? by fotbr · · Score: 1

      Until the phone companies actually provide a lower rate for people that bought their phones outright, that won't change. I think there's one company in the US that does that, and if its the one I think it is, they're being bought by AT&T so you can expect that lower rate to go away.

    17. Re:Why the hell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey hack your phone all you want....just dont expect to be able to use it on THEIR networks.

      All of you seem to forget it is THEIR network you are tying too....and they say you cannot hack your phone and use their network.
      I guess all you sour butt /.'s will have to create your own Telco if you want to hack....if you want to use the nation wide networks then either comply by their rules or gtfo their networks...

      Oh yeah all of you think you have some god given right to use their networks....sorry you dont.

      stupid /.'s

    18. Re:Why the hell? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Because it's not your phone. You're renting-to-own it from your carrier. If it weren't locked you might be more tempted to skip out on your contract early.

    19. Re:Why the hell? by afidel · · Score: 1

      1W is the EIRP limit for indoor use so it's largely going to depend on what kind of antenna you put in front of that small amp, but in general you won't be able to easily exceed the limit. That said the rules also state that the manufacturer must not enable easy end user modification or reconfiguration to non-tested setups. The reason is that if you put the wrong kind of antennae or amp in front of a certified device you can easily end up with a device that spews garbage all over the spectrum.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    20. Re:Why the hell? by Homburg · · Score: 1

      I guess the carriers might be thinking that, but it doesn't make any sense. You've signed a contract, you're going to pay the carrier whatever happens. Having a SIM-unlocked cellphone doesn't change that, and having a rooted cellphone just has nothing to do with changing carriers, as far as I can tell.

    21. Re:Why the hell? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Further, the correct way to handle that is to split the phone. The radio runs firmware that enforces any actual regulatory and network stability issues and the rest of the phone is up for grabs. I have worked with embedded devices where the cellmodem simply presented an extended AT command set on an internal serial connection.

      That approach would give the customers what they want while reducing the incentive to break the actually important security.

      The real; reason, of course is that they're petrified that their actual customers (the cell carriers) wouldn't be able to nickle and dime their customers to death quite as much if the phones were open.

    22. Re:Why the hell? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      The early termination fee in your contract doesn't cover the cost of the phone. Perhaps it should, but carriers in the US have opted to go with locking the phone and having low ETFs instead.

      Count yourself lucky. Carriers in Canada have realistic ETFs AND lock the phones.

      If you don't like it, don't rent a phone from the carrier. Buy it.

      You're quite correct about rooted phones. Locking them up that way probably has a few motivations - controlling what you can do on their network, forcing you to upgrade your phone because you can't get OS updates, selling you "features" that your phone already has but are disabled, and eventually I suspect the carriers will force you to use their app stores. That little gem is worth too much money for them to ignore.

      Again, if you don't like it, buy your phone instead of renting it.

    23. Re:Why the hell? by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Power and frequency are related only in that they are both characteristics of a signal, like color and top speed are characteristics of a car, but one doesn't affect the other. The reason devices are limited to a given power rating is simply to minimize their footprint.

    24. Re:Why the hell? by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      Why can't you use your own phone as you please, even more so if it's Android, an open platform?

      Because you vote against being able to use it as you please.

      The device ships defective by design, you know this, you buy it anyway, and your sale goes down in history as Yet Another Satisfied Customer.

      Just Say No. It's easy.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    25. Re:Why the hell? by Excelsior · · Score: 1

      I personally think this is all about tethering. The telcos are charging an obscene $20 - $30 to use the bandwidth you already paid for. And a lot of people want to tether, even the average Joe who normally doesn't know the first thing about ROMs and bootloaders.

      The telcos are aware that rooted phones can tether for free. I know several people who are completely non-technical who have rooted Android to tether for free. There is significant money on the table. Money that most of us feel is raping and pillaging, but money none the less.

    26. Re:Why the hell? by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Not to be rude, but you are wrong on all counts, except for the first, and frankly nobody gives a fuck up about screwing with Wi-Fi. The feds included. And not it can't screw with other frequencies, if the hardware passed FFC approval at all. Except for channel 14, which is okay for other reasons. The signaling stack is usually on another CPU, or run under a hypervizor with full protection. You can screw with interrupts if you want, but you cant screw with the radio. At least, not in such a way to endanger the network. Masked ID? The SIM is a full blown smartcard. Private keys and all. No reasonable way of screwing with ID.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
    27. Re:Why the hell? by PipsqueakOnAP133 · · Score: 1

      If all your phones use excess data that's completely out of the ordinary for a properly designed app, it's effectively DDOSing the network.

      http://gizmodo.com/#!5668601/how-an-android-app-brought-down-t+mobile-for-an-entire-city

  9. Idiotic move by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This really really sucks. Imagine the day when they're no longer providing software updates (next month, next week) but there are nice 0-day exploits for the linux kernel running around in the wild.

    I fail to see any reason behind this except pushing people to upgrade...

    Signed: A current HTC Hero user running Android 2.3

  10. unprecedented evile; it's us or dust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    pushy. always fatal. the time for them to go is now.

  11. I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by wisebabo · · Score: 2

    ... so maybe this is a stupid question.

    Is it easier to jailbreak an iPhone (or iDevice) than this? I thought Android devices were "open"; if so shouldn't one be able to change their OS more easily?

    Or does the openness of the Android platform refer to the fact that there is no restriction on the Apps you can install? Or is there something else I am missing?

    *about this issue. I'm quite knowledgeable about a host of others though!

    1. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by Tukz · · Score: 4, Informative

      Android itself is relativity open, however, the vendors (Motorola, HTC, SE, etc) can lock it down if they want.
      Only 2 phones use Android in it's base form, everyone else use vendor modified versions.

      --
      - Don't do what I do, it's probably not healthy nor safe. -
    2. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by bemymonkey · · Score: 3, Informative

      A guess as to what "Open" refers to in this context: Android is open source. iOS is not... Basically, anyone can put Android on their device.

      Unfortunately, this doesn't mean that the manufacturers of mainstream Anroid devices can't lock them down so the people that buy them can't put on their own versions of self-baked Android. It's not Android's fault, but it damn well is Android's problem :(

    3. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, this doesn't mean that the manufacturers of mainstream Anroid devices can't lock them down so the people that buy them can't put on their own versions of self-baked Android. It's not Android's fault, but it damn well is Android's problem :(

      I'm pretty sure that parts of the LGPL (which a parts of Android are undoubtedly licensed under) makes it clear that the user must be able to:

      0) Convey the Minimal Corresponding Source under the terms of this License, and the Corresponding Application Code in a form suitable for, and under terms that permit, the user to recombine or relink the Application with a modified version of the Linked Version to produce a modified Combined Work, in the manner specified by section 6 of the GNU GPL for conveying Corresponding Source.
      1) Use a suitable shared library mechanism for linking with the Library. A suitable mechanism is one that (a) uses at run time a copy of the Library already present on the user's computer system, and (b) will operate properly with a modified version of the Library that is interface-compatible with the Linked Version.

      (From http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lesser.html)

      I'd argue that a locked bootloader prevents me doing just that, since I can't update the firmware image with my replacement library and expect it to boot.

      --
      I drink to make other people interesting!
    4. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I should have pasted the whole of section 4 of the LGPL, which also makes it clear that you must provide all information required for the user to reinstall the new shared library of their choice.

      --
      I drink to make other people interesting!
    5. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most android phones can do what a jailbroken iPhone can do (load non-app store apps) right out of the box, no modification needed.

    6. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by LoganDzwon · · Score: 1

      The openness is in regards to what the manufacture can do with the platform.

    7. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by slim · · Score: 1

      I thought Android devices were "open"; if so shouldn't one be able to change their OS more easily?

      Other people have given accurate answers, but just for clarity -- most Android phones consist of an "open" OS on a "closed" device.

      Imagine you're designing a vending machine. You can use a 100% free Linux distro as its core OS. But you can hide every data interface behind a padlock such that your customer can't install a different Linux, or install extra applications -- they just have access to the coinbox and the product selection buttons. You could include your own non-free software on there -- the application that manages the vending for example might be non-free.

      A typical Android phone is pretty much analogous to that, except that the locks are in software.

    8. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      ... so maybe this is a stupid question.

      Is it easier to jailbreak an iPhone (or iDevice) than this? I thought Android devices were "open"; if so shouldn't one be able to change their OS more easily?

      Or does the openness of the Android platform refer to the fact that there is no restriction on the Apps you can install? Or is there something else I am missing?

      *about this issue. I'm quite knowledgeable about a host of others though!

      It depends on what you're referring to when you say "open".

      The Android platform itself is completely open source. Anybody can download the source, modify it, compile it, etc. In that respect it's quite a bit more open than the iPhone OS.

      The platform, in general, is also more open. You aren't necessarily tied to a single app store. Worst-case scenario, you can load an app from an .apk on an SD card or something. Which makes it far easier to develop your own homebrew/in-house apps.

      However, the individual phone manufacturers are free to lock down their hardware as much as they'd like. They'll claim it's a security thing... You wouldn't want some virus to root your phone and start making long-distance phonecalls, would you? But it also ensures that the phones only do what they want, which allows them to charge a premium for specific functions like tethering.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    9. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think "operate properly with a modified version of the Library"

      If they block modified libraries, they're in violation.
      Just need the copyright holders to bust them for copyright violations.

      Is it too much to just ask for a device that isn't locked down?

    10. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Not in the right context. Android is a truly open platform. You can go get the original source and do damn well what you please with it, so can the vendors who are modifying it and packaging them on their phones. It is the hardware that is being locked down through the use of bootloaders which are not part of the Android system itself.

    11. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by domatic · · Score: 1

      The major difference isn't so much the ease of jailbreaking but the motivation to do it.

      iPhones are generally jailbroken to install applications and utilities that Apple doesn't approve of. Apart from the bits modified to open the phone, a jailbroken iPhone is still mostly running Apple firmware. Also, while jailbreaking an iPhone is generally easy, keeping it both updated AND jailbroke is a PITA as Apple is forever looking to lock the devices back up.

      With Android devices, the motivation is usually firmware replacement; most Android phones allow some form of out-of-band installation and even alternate "app-stores" without being rooted. In the Android world, not getting updates to later and improved versions of the OS is pretty much the norm....probably intended to motivate yearly phone replacements. Also, phones from Android vendors tend to have unremovable crapware and weirdo customized interface elements installed. Motorola's Motoblur is infamous. So alternate firmware gets installed so that one can have a current OS and a more vanilla interface.

      Once alternate Android firmware is installed the phone will STAY rooted since the community and not the vendor is now the update source for the phone. Some phones may even be quite difficult to jailbreak but keeping them that way is easier than an iDevice.

    12. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Hate to reply to my own, but think of this analogy. If I run Linux on a computer where the BIOS is intentionally screwed up so that the operation system I installed doesn't run properly, does that make my copy of Linux any less open?

    13. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

      As a practical matter: If you're unable to find hardware that will run said copy of Linux, yes. This is, unfortunately, becoming more and more the case on Android. The only current phone that'll let you do what you want with it (Nexus S) is built on sub-par hardware.

      Theoretically: Obviously no.

    14. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, more than that.

      G1, OG Droid, Nexus One, Nexus S all use Vanilla Android.

    15. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by beanpoppa · · Score: 2

      And what two are those? I can think of 4 off the top of my head- G1, Nexus, Nexus S, and original Droid.

    16. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      That's slightly unfair. There's plenty of hardware that will let you do what you want with Android. Samsung devices in general don't incorporate any lock on the hardware. Apple also. You can even install Android on an iPhone 3GS. All you need to do is liberate all this hardware from it's locked in software first. In some cases it's easy such as on the Galaxy S just hold down three buttons while turning it on.

      Sure they may not be open as in "here's the hardware, here's all the documentation, and here's all the tools you need to do what you want", but there's a far leap and a heck of a lot of usable hardware between the Nexus S and the bootloader locked Motorola phones.

    17. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Android is under the Apache license, not the LGPL. The Apache License does not require modified versions of the software to be distributed using the same license.

    18. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Android itself is relativity open, however, the vendors (Motorola, HTC, SE, etc) can lock it down if they want.
      Only 2 phones use Android in it's base form, everyone else use vendor modified versions.

      1. Nexus One,
      2. Nexus S,
      3. Motorola Milestone/Droid. 4. Huawei X5
      5. Huawei X6

      Wait, what?

      I guess if you're counting in binary, that's true.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    19. Re:I'm not that technically knowledgeable*... by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 1

      Android's rich variety of open source software assets are grouped into external and internal categories. Two major external components the Linux kernel and WebKit - are governed by reciprocal licenses (GPLv2, LGPL.) In addition to the two major external components an additional 30+ internal components (dbus, grub, emma, e2fsprogs, bluez, Bison, etc.) also use reciprocal licenses (GPL, LGPL, CPL, etc.) Twenty-eight components use the GPL and five use the LGPL while others use non-OSI licenses such as the OpenSSL combined license and the Bzip2 license.

      From http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2010/09/android-opening-a-digital-pandoras-box/index.htm

      The bits of Android that Google created or could change the license on are APL. But there's still a lot that's not.

      --
      I drink to make other people interesting!
  12. Why do they do it? by Bromskloss · · Score: 1

    Why do manufacturers restrict the use of their products like this? For me, as a presumptive buyer, it doesn't sound like a feature at all, just silly. What is the purpose?

    --
    Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
    1. Re:Why do they do it? by bemymonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In theory:

      1. To appease the carriers. The less control end users have over how they use their device, the better. This allows carriers to charge out the ass for things like tethering...

      2. Planned obsolescence. If every user could upgrade their device to the next version of Android easily, you'd get (*gasp*) people only buying a new phone every 4 years instead of every one or two...

      3. To minimize support costs - there's always a few idiots out there that'll brick their phones and then try to RMA them. Of course, switching to PC type OS upgrade/installation system would eliminate that problem right away.

    2. Re:Why do they do it? by brandorf · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's pretty much 100% 1 and 2. Both the carrier and manufacturer get kickback for shipping the phones with certain apps preloaded, and since they are part of the system image, unremovable without some extra work (rooting). Every Verizon android phone, for instance, comes with Amazon Kindle/MP3, Verizon's Navigator software, CityID, and Blockbuster pre-installed, and there's nothing you can do about it. In addition, things like usb tethering (not wifi) is supposed to be a standard feature for android as of 2.2, but is disabled in most phones. As far as planned obsolescence, while you can't directly prove it, one nice example is Sony Ericsson, which promised for months and months that it would upgrade its X10 line to the latest android, then finally said it was impossible for "technical reasons", then announced its new line of phones, which would launch with the latest version of android.

      --


      Bork Bork Bork!!
    3. Re:Why do they do it? by peragrin · · Score: 2

      1 &3 I agree with but not 2.

      Planned obsolescence works for dumb phones, but for smart phones especially right now it doesn't make much sense as the smart phones of just 2 years ago didn't have the processing abilities they do now.

      Maybe in 4-5 more years when the majority of major changes have been done and we are all using multi-core 28nm processors in our smart phones you can say it is planned obsolescence however right now things are moving far to fast, for that.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    4. Re:Why do they do it? by bemymonkey · · Score: 2

      You're partially correct, of course - older phones often don't have the processing power to run the newest version of their OS - case in point, iPhone 3G, or the HTC Dream.

      However, there are cases where it's the other way around, and the phone has more than enough horsepower to cope, but is being shackled by an overprotective manufacturer - See the subject of this article, for instance: Motorola's Android phones starting from the Milestone - why wouldn't those be able to run Gingerbread? Or even Ice Cream when it finally comes out?

      Alright, the Milestone is a bit strapped for RAM, but I have a feeling that all those Defy and Droid2/Milestone2 owners are in for a pretty crappy ride - their hardware (fast CPU, fast GPU, and almost 500MB of RAM available at runtime!) will be able to run many upcoming versions of Android with ease, but it's unlikely that they'll ever be allowed to. Motorola's solution: Buy a Droid 3.

      Take a look at the HD2 - aeons old in smartphone terms, but still going strong with the latest Android versions, WinPhone7 and so on.

    5. Re:Why do they do it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do manufacturers restrict the use of their products like this? For me, as a presumptive buyer, it doesn't sound like a feature at all, just silly. What is the purpose?

      You might buy one phone. Carriers buy tens of thousands, if not millions of phones. Who do you think the manufacturers care about?

    6. Re:Why do they do it? by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's actually quite possible to prevent the bricking by placing a simple loader into actual ROM. It needs to be just good enough to see that a button is pressed and to load a new image over USB (or whatever is desired). It can either have ability to re-flash built in, or it can just boot a recovery image and let it deal with the flashing.

    7. Re:Why do they do it? by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Motorola's Android phones starting from the Milestone - why wouldn't those be able to run Gingerbread?

      Everybody knows you can't catch the Gingerbread, man, no matter how fast you run.

  13. Fake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    According to the Guys from #milestone-modding (nadlabak, xvilka,...) the keys and the Story is a fake/hoax.

    Does nobody check this before releasing News?

    1. Re:Fake by ade2 · · Score: 1

      Yes it appears to be fake actually. Too bad. See here http://milestone.bekaakut.de/index.php?date=2011-03-21

  14. Forgot? by ZeRu · · Score: 1

    Motorola forgot to add a random value to the signature in order to mask the private key.

    Forgot? Or didn't want to?

    --
    If you post as an AC, don't expect me to spend a mod point on you.
    1. Re:Forgot? by BrandonJones · · Score: 1

      You apparently don't know Motorola very well. It's almost certainly "forgot".

    2. Re:Forgot? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      This. In the cellphone world, Motorola is more Sony than Sony.

  15. They just don't get it, don't they? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They don't seem to understand that the OWNER of the phone/pc/console/etc is the user, not the company, and that he would do anything to get his rights back.
    Too bad. Cheers to all of those who use their time to do this things.

  16. Wrong about HTC by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 4, Interesting
    From TFS:

    This comes at the time when HTC are also stepping up their attempts at locking down their phones . The recently released LTE flagship — ThunderBolt is their most locked-down phone to date.

    The submitter should know that the HTC Thunderbolt is just a customized variant of the HTC Desire HD provided for Verizon. Locking it up is almost certainly a Verizon-demanded attribute, and not an initiative from HTC. The Desire HD is unlocked in most of the world, and I doubt if a locked version can be obtained in countries with a more enlightened phone system.

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    1. Re:Wrong about HTC by teh31337one · · Score: 1

      From TFS:

      This comes at the time when HTC are also stepping up their attempts at locking down their phones . The recently released LTE flagship — ThunderBolt is their most locked-down phone to date.

      The submitter should know that the HTC Thunderbolt is just a customized variant of the HTC Desire HD provided for Verizon. Locking it up is almost certainly a Verizon-demanded attribute, and not an initiative from HTC. The Desire HD is unlocked in most of the world, and I doubt if a locked version can be obtained in countries with a more enlightened phone system.

      The lockdown may very well have come from Verizon, we'll have to see with their newer devices. HTC have tried to lockdown their devices before, and this is just the next step. Check up on eMMMC, s-off and root for G2, myTouch 4g, and yes, even Desire HD.

      Desire HD being sim unlocked is irrelevant. The lockdown I'm talking about is with their eMMC chip, and now their bootloader/recovery

    2. Re:Wrong about HTC by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

      Locking it up is almost certainly a Verizon-demanded attribute, and not an initiative from HTC.

      Absolutely. For sure. If you look to how Verizon's business model works, it's by nickle and dime-ing their customers through extended feature add-ons. Much in the same way AT&T did in the 80s with their landline (POTS) subscribers. Having a locked down phone is the only way to control that subscription based business model.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    3. Re:Wrong about HTC by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      From TFS:

      This comes at the time when HTC are also stepping up their attempts at locking down their phones . The recently released LTE flagship — ThunderBolt is their most locked-down phone to date.

      The submitter should know that the HTC Thunderbolt is just a customized variant of the HTC Desire HD provided for Verizon. Locking it up is almost certainly a Verizon-demanded attribute, and not an initiative from HTC. The Desire HD is unlocked in most of the world, and I doubt if a locked version can be obtained in countries with a more enlightened phone system.

      In my part of the world (the UK) I can but any phone I like unlocked. I will be able to get updates for it as soon as the handset manufacturer releases them. I will however have to pay about $500 and this is the real issue. Most people do not want to be able to root their phone, what they want instead is a subsidy from the carrier to help them afford the upfront cost of the phone. The carrier provide this subsidy but with certain strings attached.

      Since the carriers end up being the largest customers of the phone manufacturers it is the carriers who can demand different features from the handsets, and the phone manufacturers have to provide them. The end users get some say, but before most phones make it to the shops they have already been vetted by the carriers for the features they want. In my country most mobile phone shops on the high street are actually owned by the carriers anyway.

      The only way this will ever change is if a large enough volume of us start skipping the carriers and buying direct from the manufacturers without that subsidy. Once we are doing this in sufficient volume then the likes of HTC and Motorola will start producing the phones we want rather than the phones the carriers want. Until then they will always concentrate on pleasing their best customers and that is the likes of AT&T and Verizon, not us.

      This still might not help with Motorola though as they seem to have decided they want to lock their phones up regardless. But at least then they will see they do not sell many phones to end users so may find they actually start wanting to and change. While end users only buy a small percentage of phones directly they are not even subject to the slightest commercial pressure from us.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    4. Re:Wrong about HTC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both the carrier and the manufacturer want locked down phones but for different reasons. HTC does not want to deal with support issues caused by someone malfing a hacked phone. Even if it was only a Verizon thing, which would be extremely naive to think, HTC knuckled under. They also locked the G2 on T-Mobile and T-Mobile didn't tell them to do it.

    5. Re:Wrong about HTC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and my DHD took about 30 seconds to jailbrake (just like my hero , touch diamond , ......been HTC for a while now) ) , anybody with adb knowledge can do it , HTC knows very well that locking their phones is a bad move for business since android is a "geek-phone" VS iphone being a "user-phone" , people who want locked down ultra0licked experience go to apple , people who like to compile the OS to their taste and run it on their phones go to android

    6. Re:Wrong about HTC by speculatrix · · Score: 1

      Agreed, I recently got a desireZ/g2 and in my ignorance let it update itself on the first day
      Took me quite a lot of effort to get to where I wanted to be. Had to back it up, downgrade it, root, s-off, upgrade to custom boot and finally restore apps and redo settings
      If the trend continues, we will look back at the N900 and wish Nokia hadn't been so casual in updating it and losing their edge.

    7. Re:Wrong about HTC by Technomancer · · Score: 1

      Desire HD maybe, but Inspire 4G (same thing for ATT, little different radio) is locked shut. The process of unlocking it is long as well (downgrade to Desire HD ROM, and then exploting DHD radio).

    8. Re:Wrong about HTC by teh31337one · · Score: 1

      The submitter would like to point out that the Incredible S (UK GSM phone) has signed images as well , so stop blaming Verizon for it. It is htc.

  17. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why do people allow the phone industry to be like this?

    Where would we be if we went to buy a computer and it was locked down to a single ISP vendor, and the only way you could install software was via their system.
    As phone hardware was becoming more general purpose pro programmatically I was hoping it would open up a bit. Droid seems to be the closest but damn.

    This is why I will not buy a smart phone. Oh that and the charging $30 freaking dollars a month for "broadband" that is 3-6gig capped. WTF that's as much as a cable modem.

  18. I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why use an open platform for a closed system?

  19. Own the network all you want, but I OWN MY PHONE by log0n · · Score: 2

    We're getting to a point where if we don't like how we're being treated as a customer, we can no longer take our money elsewhere. Every option is becoming evil.

  20. I'm confused by Scyber · · Score: 1

    I've been running custom roms and kernels on my rooted Droid OG for a while now. What exactly was the locked bootloader preventing me from doing?

    1. Re:I'm confused by Microlith · · Score: 1

      The Droid OG doesn't have a signed kernel.

      All other Motorola devices, including the Milestone, have a hardware-protected bootloader that checks to see if the kernel being run was signed by Motorola.

      Basically, it permanently prevents you from actually upgrading Android at your leisure, and ensures that when Motorola is tired of supporting your phone they can ensure it will eventually become obsolete software-wise and force you to upgrade for newer features.

      Everything you are doing now, you cannot do on systems with this lock.

  21. Sorry guys by Olipro · · Score: 1

    Since when did ElGamal private keys fit into a single tweet? I don't believe for a second that Motorola were using a 240bit key, I call bullshit.

  22. All I can recommend by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

    if you go android, go with the current Google reference device. One of Googles base requirements is that you single handedly can unlock the bootloader as you wish (usually via the command adb oem unlock)

    Currently the two reference devices are the Nexus One and the Nexus S.

  23. Worked until AT&T bought T-Mobile by tepples · · Score: 2

    Here's why: In the US, the only way to get a phone is through a carrier.

    Correction, for the LAZY that is the only way.

    In the United States, the price of 2 years of service includes a discount on a phone. There's no discount on the service for not buying a phone at the same time as the plan. T-Mobile used to offer such a discount, called "Even More Plus", but it'll probably go away in a year once AT&T completes its acquisition of T-Mobile.

    A european iphone 4 works perfectly here

    On which carrier?

  24. Morton's fork by tepples · · Score: 1

    You want something with added functionality? You try to find something that has that functionality included OEM.

    It doesn't help if all OEMs refuse to provide such a product to the public. Case in point: I want a set-top video game player that lets me make and run my own games, but the three OEMs of set-top video game players (Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony) don't provide that. In fact, Nintendo is openly hostile to home developers. So it's a Morton's fork: all products on the market are unsuitable.

  25. Locking down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They can lock them down, the question is if it is LEGAL to lock them down.

    If they distribute GPL or LGPL libraries they can't legally lock out using your own modified versions.

  26. Details of the signature issue leading to this by ChadL · · Score: 1

    Having not seen the technical details of this implementation issue before, I googled it, and found http://rdist.root.org/2010/11/19/dsa-requirements-for-random-k-value/. I don't design my own signature implementations (I just use openssl), but its conceivable that I might need to at some point, so I like to keep up on the technical details behind such cracks; in order to avoid making the same mistakes.

  27. Fake by 1001011010110101 · · Score: 1

    The publisher of the info is a known troll, hasn't ever released anything, and has already been trounced by people that know this stuff. False alarm.

  28. Why secure the phones at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind developing these ever increasingly complex locks... What exactly does it do for Motorola or HTC other than cost them a lot of money and developer time to create? Inevitably is will be cracked, so ultimately all of their efforts are useless. And once they're cracked, does it really cost them any money if people have unlocked phones?!? It doesn't seem like this is something being driven by the phone manufacturers themselves, but rather the service providers in an attempt to prevent people using the phones in ways they don't want... I figure, I'm paying a LOT of money for service on my phone, and I'm paying for "unlimited" internet, yet it seems that really isn't the case. So I imagine this is just a way to enforce the restricted use of the "unlimited" internet connection? I'm waiting out my current "warranty" period of one year, then I will be rooting my phone to be able to actually uninstall some of the garbage they have on it. I think if I bought a new laptop and it has as many restrictions as my phone, I would be returning it the next day (although things seem to be headed that way with all of the new tablets like the iPad and Xoom...).

  29. Sad when the 'most free' phone by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Comes from china as a 'clone'....

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  30. Scam Alert by flangehead · · Score: 1

    from droid-life.com: Oh Those DROID Bootloaders – Still Locked. Forever Locked. Trolls. (Updated) http://www.droid-life.com/2011/03/21/oh-those-droid-bootloaders-still-locked-forever-locked/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+DroidLife+(droid+life) "About that DROID bootloader unlocking story. Just read the conversation above and move on with your lives. It’s locked, will always be locked, and we’re glad we used a bunch of question marks and “coulds” in our post about it. And you guys call me the hypebeast? Update: Motorola reached out to us to clear up more of this situation. They said as plain as day, “We did not send the C&D letter to Mr. Pitcock [nenolod].” They also did not receive any notice of vulnerability which nenolod claims to have sent. This probably isn’t surprising since the guy admitted to it being one giant scam, but Moto wanted to make sure you all knew."

  31. Am I... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Am I the only the only one that read the first words of the title as 'Motorol-asSholes'?