Geohot Battles Back Against Sony

csaw.csaw writes "According to Ars Technica, 'Hotz is slamming Sony's arguments at every turn. Sony claims there is a PSN account that Hotz created? Well, the serial number is wrong and anyone could have made that account. The manuals contained information on how SCEA is located in California? The manuals were never opened.' Groklaw posted the latest court filing (PDF) as well as their own analysis, saying, 'All the over-the-top allegations, in short, that some journalists published last week after reading SCEA's filing are now answered ably, about blickmaniac, the Playstation Network, the California downloads, the serial number, SCEA's jurisdictional arguments, everything. I confess, this is getting exciting.'"

Comments

Boycott Sony!

[mikaelg]

I dont know why people support Sony. Countless of times they're showed their true colors. The stuff they do to paying customers is absolutely stunning. Both Nintendo's Wii and Microsoft's Xbox 360 do have DRM, but they don't do shit like this. Microsoft only bans the modded user from multiplayer, and rightfully so because he could cheat against other players. Sony is going way over the line.

. If you want to play the same games, just get a XBOX 360 and drop PS3. They have the same games anyway, and 360 is a better console, especially with Kinect.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Locke2005]

Sad but true, I've concluded Microsoft is less evil then Sony. In fact, I'm tempted to by an Xbox with included Kinect now that they are $380 at Costco. Nintendo is much less evil than either Sony or Microsoft, but my Wii is looking a little long in the tooth now.

I decided to boycott Sony a few years back with my Sony "Dream Machine" home theater system turned out to be a nightmare -- Sony managed to put out some of the worst quality DVD players at the highest prices.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

I decided to skip the PS3 when they first announced it, and Sony was asked about the high price ($600 I think). Their response was something along the lines of "Consumers will pay whatever we tell them to pay", along with more gems like "Next generation gaming doesn't start until we say it starts".

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

I decided to skip the PS3 when I had to void my PS2's warranty by adjusting a cog to fix a misaligned laser inside of it. The rootkit and Lik Sang episodes didn't help matters much.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[countertrolling]

I dont know why people support Sony.

Because it's impossible not to, unless you use cash and barter. They have their fingers in the entire economy. They get a piece of the action no matter where it is.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[clang_jangle]

No. I don't have Sony anything in my life since 2004. Sounds like you're just too lazy to research your purchases, frankly.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[DarkOx]

I am with you, I try and make sure not one red cent of my mine goes to Sony and I am successful most of the time but not always. More then once I have been out with friends and spontaneously decided to see a film, only later to discover Sony Pictures had a hand in it. I have not been willing to get a smart phone just so I can avoid accidentally seeing their movies.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[JustAnotherIdiot]

"If you want to play the same games, just get a XBOX 360 and drop PS3."

Easier said than done, thanks for the typical useless fanboy advice.

"They have the same games anyway"

Little big planet, which is the reason I have a ps3? Not on 360.

"360 is a better console"

Haha, no, each console has their strong points. To think otherwise clearly shows your fanboyism.

"especially with Kinect"

I barf in your general direction sir.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[poetmatt]

All consoles do indeed do shit like this. Why do you think you're still buying games on disc, why do you think the prices are going up? Even with inflation prices should be far far lower by now, by an order of magnitude.

If you want to play the same games, get a PC, which you can actually use for shit other than gaming, without paying a premium on everything that exists. For the price of a PS3 you get an easy 3 years of use as a gaming system, it's incredibly easy to download games for free (a more realistic price), and you can actually use it however you want.

While I understand the console appeal, understand that when you buy a console for $300 you effectively are buying a box. While they have some functionality, it's not even close to the most modest PC stuff.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Samalie]

There's only one case I know of (console to console compare) where Microsoft is still more evil than Sony.

Specifically, it came in with Netflix (at least in Canada)

On the PS3, Netflix is "free" from Sony's standpoint. I have the console, downloaded Netflix, got my Netflix membership, and away I go.

On the X360...I have the console, went to download Netflix, found I couldn't because I'm not a Gold member. SERIOUSLY? I spend money on your console and want to download a free to you app and I can't because you have that gold-only restricted. FUCK YOU! I'm not spending $60 a year to download a free app.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[larien]

Sony are a royal PITA on so many levels. Most people who need to supply removable storage on a mobile device use SD cards (or mini/micro variants thereof) so that you can use them anywhere and buy from a variety of places. Hell, the manufacturers even have someone else doing all the hard graft in making up the specs for it. You'd think it was a given that someone would use the industry standard product for their stuff.

But no. Sony have to come up with their MMC cards, complete incompatible with everything else so you can't share them between devices. And, of course, there's only really one supplier. This was entirely what stopped me getting a Sony Walkman phone.

And then there's UMD - crap design as it's easy to get your fingers on the disc. And, of course, they rendered all the UMD disks unusable on the newer PSPs, although getting rid of it was probably a blessing.

Dropping linux support on the PSP3 was a slap in the face for customers, just because they'd screwed up their design and realised that the bits of code which let people run linux allowed them to hack the box.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[clang_jangle]

No love of modern movie theatres, nor the unruly crowds one finds there these days. I have no problem with "pirating" content from evil companies, though I rarely do that myself. Surely some small change from my netflix subscription ends up in Sony's pockets. Still, that's a far cry from just throwing your hands up and buying a PS3 or vaio with the rationalization "I can't avoid them!". That's just lame.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Labcoat Samurai]

And you can't play multiplayer without a gold subscription either!

Seriously, it kinda sucks, but take it or leave it, right? I mean, they have no obligation to make their device support Netflix at all. You can complain that the service is crappier than Sony's as a result (and you'd be right), but eviler?

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to play the same games, just get a XBOX 360 and drop PS3. They have the same games anyway, and 360 is a better console, especially with Kinect.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/3/25/

Re:Boycott Sony!

[dadelbunts]

I have gone through so many PS2's its not even funny. RROD is nothing compared to sony cog of misaligned laser. And i have never seen a controller wear out faster or as horribly as a PS2 controller.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[triffid_98]

No. I don't have Sony anything in my life since 2004. Sounds like you're just too lazy to research your purchases, frankly.

So apparently you don't go to movies, listen to music or watch television either. It's almost absurd how much of our older content is owned by them.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[YesIAmAScript]

Is this the same Microsoft that settled with Immersion to give them cash to sue Sony in court over vibrating controllers with the proviso that MS would get paid from any settlement with Sony?

http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2007/06/18/microsoft-sues-immersion-over-sony-agreement/

If you're looking for a non-evil company, Microsoft isn't it.

I do think Sony's lawsuit is pointless and stupid. Microsoft is smarter to avoid all this. But that's not a question of evil/non-evil, it's just wiser or less wise.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[thatbloke83]

Yea that's the reason why we in the UK cannot have the iPlayer on Xbox Live either - Microsoft only want to offer it to Gold members, but due to the way the BBC is funded over here (the TV licence, there are no ads on the Beeb due to this) if people are paying their TV licence they should not then be forced to pay any other costs to then access the service.

Due to this "standoff" between Microsoft and the BBC we're kinda stuck in the middle :(

Re:Boycott Sony!

[AndyAndyAndyAndy]

Indeed, Playstation Network is free for online games and Netflix... only very few titles are on their "Plus" membership tier, and even then, you can buy those one-off without signing up for the whole year. And if you do, it's cheaper than Gold membership. For how much they screw over some of their customers, they also take pretty good care of the majority, relatively speaking.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, shithead. Typing out the word "you" isn't so difficult, maybe try it sometime. Also, his post doesn't necessarily imply that he owns a PS3. Or maybe he just wants to watch Netflix in a different room without dragging his PS3 back and forth.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[cpu6502]

>>>Nintendo is much less evil than either Sony or Microsoft

NOW Nintendo is less evil. They used to be as bad as Sony back in the NES and Super Nintendo days (late 80s and early 90s).

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

it's incredibly easy to download games for free (a more realistic price)

Do you mean it's incredibly easy to find free (as in beer) games, or do you mean it's incredibly easy to find non-free (as in beer) games for free (as in beer) anyway - i.e. 'piracy'?

If the latter.. not much of a fair comparison, is it? Especially since you -can- now easily play copied PS3 games anyway.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[clang_jangle]

Ah slashdot, always peppered with erroneous supposition...
I do not claim to be ABSOLUTELY UNCONNECTED IN ANY WAY to Sony, so allow me to rephrase: I do not PAY SONY MONEY for anything, except perhaps they get a cut of my netflix subscription. Otherwise no, I do not "go to" movies (how does one "go to" an mpeg? :)). I do listen to music (and I pay for it when I like it enough and it's not on Sony), do not own blueray, PS3, vaio, walkman, headphones, or anything else made by Sony. Reality, not being black and white, allows for many positions between "I bought a vaio -- HAD NO CHOICE!!!!" and "I moved to another planet to get away from Sony".

HTH, HAND, blah blah blah...

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

But at least they made up for it by creating Super Mario Bros. 3.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

"my Wii is looking a little long"

And you are complaining because.....

Re:Boycott Sony!

[mlts]

Sony did score a dubious achievement of having a console out for so long before it was cracked.

However, I am almost certain it would have been cracked earlier had they not pulled the Other OS thing out.

I hope Sony learns this lesson... if they have a PS4 with the ability for people to do homebrew stuff on it, accessing the features of the machine (pretty much everything but the DRM stack), it likely would never be cracked. The true jailbreakers/devs can't stand pirates and just breaking a DRM stack so someone can download Madden 2011 from a torrent as opposed from buying the media wouldn't be a high priority on their list.

One can look at some of the tweets of the Apple Dev Team's posts about their contempt for app pirates, and if they could find a way to make sure Installous wouldn't run on a JB-ed iPhone, they likely would.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can tell you why people buy sony. The hardware they make is more reliable. How many people do you know that are on their 3rd 4th xbox? I am on my first ps3 from launch. My 360 after the 2nd one died I gave up on it. They may be better now but I just dont care anymore...

I also have a wii. Played the hell out of it at first now it gathers dust.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Dan667]

Just get a Gaming PC and ditch this console crap from all of these guys.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[EdIII]

I feel the same way. I own (well took over) a XBOX360 and have no interest in playing online. Having to spend $60 bucks a year just for fucking Netflix is insulting.

The best solution though, is to purchase a Western Digital Live TV Plus. It's $99 and the Netflix application on it rocks. Much better than the app on the XBOX360. It also has a much better ability to connect up to network shares, media players, etc.

Ohhhh, and it's HDMI 1.3 with an optical out for a nice sound system setup.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Microsoft's Xbox 360 do have DRM, but they don't do shit like this."

Look up Matthew Crippen and Lik Sang.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[spire3661]

Because the PS3 is a finely made piece of hardware is why. It really is badass. And I dont think ANYONE thought Sony would go as far as they have regarding straight up removing advertised and fully supported features. The Rootkit thing , well honestly i dont think Sony knew how bad that design was and it was 3rd party developed. Still culpable, but it easy to see that it jsut got out of hand and wasnt intended or explained to them how bad the damage would be. The Other OS thing they have no shield nor excuse for, no one to pass the buck to. Its a straight up fuck you.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[mrchaotica]

Reasons to hate and boycott Sony:

• Lik Sang
• Rootkit
• "MP3" player that only plays ATRAC3
• Proprietary MiniDisc
• Proprietary MemoryStick
• Blu-Ray DRM
• Disabling PS2 compatibility from the PS3
• Disabling OtherOS from the PS3
• Rootkit (worth listing again!)
• Suing their customers

...and that's not even a complete list, I'm sure!

Re:Boycott Sony!

[the_Bionic_lemming]

So apparently you don't go to movies, listen to music or watch television either. It's almost absurd how much of our older content is owned by them.

I can say I don't. It's been about ten-fifteen years since I stepped into a movie theater, I was an early adopter of cutting the cord - like the other guy said, Netflix is my only vice (and the library), And when it got to the point of hearing only 22 minutes or so out of an hour of things that weren't commercials, I quit the radio too. I still buy cd's - of indy bands. Became a big fan of Patchouli.net.

So while I'm sure that you might not like that lifestyle, some of us are perfectly happy avoiding advertising, saving that hundred a month from paying for cable/satellite, and listening to hours of commercial free music. The icing on the cake is apparently Sony's losing money from that too :)

Re:Boycott Sony!

[countertrolling]

You're playing whack-a-mole. Tell you what you can do.. Get everybody to take their money out of the bank, so Sony won't be able to find any to borrow. That's about as sensible as missing out on your Spiderman 5 there, don't you think?

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Locke2005]

Because spring is here and I can't wear shorts without being charged with indecent exposure!

Re:Boycott Sony!

[oracleguy01]

While I totally agree with you that Microsoft making gold a requirement to use Netflix sucks. If you do still want it, you can get a year of gold membership for 30-35 dollars usually. Just keep an eye out on slickdeals and other websites for sales on the 1 year prepaid cards. Still a real annoyance but at least it isn't as expensive.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Ruke]

Can you clarify what exactly you mean when you say that game prices should be an order of magnitude lower? There's certainly no historical trend that would indicate this: adjusted for inflation, SNES games retailed for about $80. If you're referring to the fact that there are games available for $5, you should keep in mind that those were developed under a vastly different model than the big-studio, multi-million-dollar-development-cost games that retail for $60 for console. If you simply prefer indie games like Angry Birds, you're certainly entitled to your opinion; however, even you have to admit that the gameplay experience is completely different from that offered by Halo, and that it's unreasonable to demand both for the same price.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you clarify what exactly you mean when you say that game prices should be an order of magnitude lower?

He means "I am unaware that there is a the difference between 'order of magnitude' and 'a lot'"

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

This guy is an idiot, oh, sure he's smart to crack the PS3, and so on, but lacks the street smarts to know that you play with fire you can get burned. Weather he wins or loses it's a moot point, he'll be up to his eyeballs in debt when this is over.

Sony is evil? No fucking way, they provide a service, a network where anyone can play without cheats and hacks equal for everyone. You get satisfaction from the games you bought. The others? Not so much. You can only play with trusted friends if you want a fair game, AND you get to pay for that privilege.

You say that MS is not evil ... how the hell do you think they managed to keep so many for their consoles only? By playing nice?
Kinekt? What the hell is that? Other than the funny videos, I haven't seen any practical uses for it. Have you tried using it for 15 minutes? No? Then I won't bother to ask if you use if to a couple of hours straight each day.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Because the PS3 is a finely made piece of hardware is why. It really is badass."

Five hundred and ninety-nine US dollars. And you attack its weak point... for MASSIVE DAMAGE.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree, we have now actively trying to avoid Sony.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope Sony learns this lesson... if they have a PS4 with the ability for people to do homebrew stuff on it, accessing the features of the machine (pretty much everything but the DRM stack), it likely would never be cracked.

They've already learned their lesson, just not the right one. They think the moral of the story is "don't enable homebrew at all".

Re:Boycott Sony!

[overlordofmu]

This is why I support Sony:

I like gaming. The Wii lacks the content I, as a gamer, require. So, that leaves the PC, PS3 or 360 as choices. Two of those choices equate to supporting Microsoft. In summary, I have these three options: not game, support Sony or support Microsoft. I find the moral short-comings of Microsoft several orders of magniture more distasteful than the moral short-comings Sony. And I truly adore some of the exclusive content on the PS3.

I don't know why people support Microsoft.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[h4rr4r]

$35 is more than a third of what the cheapest netflix runs for a year. One would be far better off getting a roku or other netflix player for a $100 and avoiding the reoccurring charge.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[bigstrat2003]

Disabling PS2 compatibility from the PS3

That has never happened. Newer hardware revisions don't have PS2 compatibility, it's true, but if your PS3 could run PS2 games when you bought it, it can still do so today.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Lifyre]

According to the Consumerist Apple is also more evil than Microsoft (http://consumerist.com/2011/03/worst-company-in-america-round-one-apple-vs-microsoft.html) And Sony is still in the running for most evil in the country.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Weezul]

Or you could simply donate money to Geohot's defense. :)

I do not one single thing produced by sonny, perhaps some battery someplace, maybe. I cannot claim any moral high ground however. I simply don't buy shitty mostly useless stuff like video game consoles. Sony also had a reputation for their products being less well designed like 10 years ago.

I'll make a mental note to count Geohot against them when I buy my first ebook reader this year, although among main stream ebook readers Sony has the upper hand morally speaking, i.e. more formats, no stupid store, memory card slot, etc. Afaik, there isn't even a djvu app for the Kindle, Nook, etc. I suppose the Jinke Hanlin and Pocketbooks must be among the most moral choices in ebook readers these days. hmm

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Blakey Rat]

Even Sony Pictures Entertainment? Including their TV shows and networks?

That's quite a trick, frankly.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[clang_jangle]

I am not playing whack-a-mole, I've succeeded at voting with my wallet. Whether or not it makes a real difference to anyone else I know I'm doing what's right for me. And maybe you're doing what's right for you, no-one could know that but you (though maybe you don't).

"Missing out" on "Spiderman 5" -- ZZZZZOOOOOOMMMMMGGGGGG!!!!!!!111eleventyonezeez!!!

No, I'm just kind of naturally not a consumer of a lot of that kind of crap. I guess it's ok if that's what you want out of life. Spiderman 5, LOL... No, Sony doesn't tempt me with that kind of silliness. :D

Re:Boycott Sony!

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Sounds like you're just too lazy to research your purchases, frankly.

Too lazy or not obsessed enough?

Re:Boycott Sony!

[westlake]

I dont know why people support Sony.

By the numbers:

49 million PS3 consoles sold. 69 million PSN accounts. 17 milion PlayStation Home social networking accounts. 4 million MOVE controllers.

Firmware upgrades have kept the five year old PS3 feature-competitive with the latest and greatest in Blu-Ray HD and streaming media.

Netflix at 1080p with theater surround sound.

The Red Box vends Blu-Ray videos and PS3 games.

The Walmart mega-store places the PS3 Slim at the center of a golden triangle of sophisticated console video games, big screen HDTVs, DVD and Blu-Ray videos.

No one shopping here is mourning the loss of the OtherOS.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[the_Bionic_lemming]

Yep - no satellite or cable - broadcast is hooked up for presidential speeches and the superbowl - otherwise it's never on.

Just Netflix and the Library for television stuff.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[scot4875]

Little big planet, which is the reason I have a ps3? Not on 360.

You know what? You'd be surprised at how easy it is to live with missing a game here and there.

--Jeremy

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

A) Yes, there are fewer "bargain bin" games for consoles, and there is much less of a depreciation over time, when compared with PC games. However, when you compare the two for release day prices of triple-A titles, there is very little difference between buying PC games and buying console games.

B) Really? You can build a PC with distinct graphics and enough RAM to run major releases (read: eye candy) for $300? Given that $300 is closer to the bargain Dell/HP/e-Machine price than that of a serious gaming rig, I'm going to call your bluff on that.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

There's only one case I know of (console to console compare) where Microsoft is still more evil than Sony.

Specifically, it came in with Netflix (at least in Canada)

On the PS3, Netflix is "free" from Sony's standpoint

You must be using some strange definition of "evil" that I've never heard before.

McDonald's in Canada offers free refills on pop. Wendy's does not.

So I guess this makes Wendy's more "evil" with respect to pop-refilling than McDonalds?

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Blakey Rat]

And you never used Netflix to watch a Sony picture? I'm still not buying it.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[billcopc]

I agree that it's abusive to require Gold for just Netflix, that's just ridiculous, but the Gold service itself is fine. I don't mind paying $5 for their extensive online service, and I find it helps cut down (somewhat) on raging preteens. Many still get mommy and daddy to pay up, but on PSN it seems I'm the only adult around, while every other player is a team-killing imbecile whose vocabulary consists exclusively of the words "nigger" and "faggot". I would gladly pay $20 a month just to keep those missed abortions out of my headset...

But yeah, the Netflix app should be free to access for anyone. The way it is now, it kind of looks like M$ is trying to force Netflix users to stare at the Zune marketplace... Conflict of interest ?

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

It almost sounds as if you've grown weary of being a disposable customer.
I was kinda surprised at how many SONY things I have around the place, I never really paid attention before.
I do now.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Travelsonic]

Sony is evil? No fucking way, they provide a service, a network where anyone can play without cheats and hacks equal for everyone.

Are you .. stupid? The evil part isn't THAT - L:OOK at the LAWSUIT and TREATMENT of the PERSON whose STORY SPURRED this posting on /s, you idiot.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[clang_jangle]

Well, Blakey Rat, I'm sure it suits you just fine to conduct your little witch hunt, so that once you find something you're satisfied is "a hole in the story" you can go back to spending your cash with your oppressors without concern -- because you looked into it once, and "decided" it "isn't realistic". That's the difference between someone like you and someone who is conscientious and sincere (no offense intended). A sincere person does what they can. People like you tend to just rationalize and make excuses and continue on being part of the problem.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Missing out" on "Spiderman 5" -- ZZZZZOOOOOOMMMMMGGGGGG!!!!!!!111eleventyonezeez!!!

No, I'm just kind of naturally not a consumer of a lot of that kind of crap. I guess it's ok if that's what you want out of life. Spiderman 5, LOL... No, Sony doesn't tempt me with that kind of silliness. :D

You wouldn't be trying so hard to convince everyone that you're "not a consumer of a lot of that kind of crap." unless you actually were.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe you're just a troll.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you also think that my reading the ingredients on all food products and choosing not to buy food which contains a certain list of ingredients is "obsessive". The truth is, you're probably too lazy and apathetic to care what crap you put in your body, so those of us who do care are "obsessed".

See how transparent you are, Mr butt licker?

Re:Boycott Sony!

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Perhaps you also think that my reading the ingredients on all food products and choosing not to buy food which contains a certain list of ingredients is "obsessive".

No, but it's also unrelated. Take any food item from your kitchen and give me a list of all the companies involved in getting that to you. This includes the company who designed the packaging, the company who produced the packaging, the factory that assembled it all together, the delivery company, and the company that sold that food to the grocery store that provided it.

See how transparent you are, Mr butt licker?

You wouldn't be annoyed if I didn't have a good point.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

However they have taken a major step back towards evil for region locking the 3DS to help enforce artificial pricing based on geography and censorship laws. Gone are the days that you can go to the airport and pick up a game to play on your Nintendo handheld for the long flight, now that's pretty evil.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly why I haven't turned on my 360 in over a year but use the PS3 nearly daily.

Miss a few games here and there, but I enjoy the PS3 much more.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Stupendoussteve]

Get a PC.

Then upgrade PC.

Repeat.

I don't need to upgrade my console every few months to a year to play the latest games. That's the reason I got out of PC gaming, it was just too expensive. And sure, I might be able to play some new PC game on low settings without upgrading, but on the console I can have pretty good settings if not the same quality as the PC.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Stupendoussteve]

SSD was created to compete with MemoryStick, Sony had 'em first. It just happens that SD is everywhere because it's a standard rather than a Sony product.

MMC is unrelated, SD is the "new generation" of MMC.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Stupendoussteve]

Your PS3 will likely still work when the warranty ends.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, ego glorification much? I'm /laughing/ at you, not annoyed by you.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

"especially with Kinect"
I barf in your general direction sir.

The response of the dimwit.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[exomondo]

Even with inflation prices should be far far lower by now, by an order of magnitude.

By what logic? Big studios these days are spending more on games with voice actors, motion capture studios, elaborate art design, music and sound yet you think a game like COD - that employs all these - should be sold for $6? Either you don't understand the meaning of the term 'order of magnitude' or you don't understand how much work is put into the big commercial games.

understand that when you buy a console for $300 you effectively are buying a box

how is a console is 'effectively a box'?

Re:Boycott Sony!

[the_Bionic_lemming]

And you never used Netflix to watch a Sony picture? I'm still not buying it.

Back up a sec :) .

I don't like commercials, or how advertising took over entertainment.

It's pretty tough in this world to decide not to buy anything from Sony (or its parent corporation) because it's in virtually everything.

Sony does take a cut out of Netflix. The difference here is - you could not watch any sony movies at all, and they'll still get their share from Netflix. If you see where I said (and the person referenced said) we watch Netflix - so sony thru licensing agreements gets micropayments from anyone who uses the service.

But that's really not the point of this. You can make conscious decisions on limiting your impact on everything . I don't support the folks RIAA is "Protecting", I don't support Sony by purchasing their branded stuff", but most of all, my decisions to cut out satellite and broadcast was because of advertising.

So my one evil is Netflix. Sony's parent corp probably makes .000034 of a dollar off of me per year.

Which is much less than they made off of me in the past.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Belial6]

That is a sad myth that has seriously hurt PC gaming. If you are hooking up to a TV you are maxing out at 1920x1080. So, any comparison of screen resolutions above that are only gravy for the PC. It doesn't take that powerful of a video card to do 1920 by 1080. You can practically do it on an integrated graphics chip. So, you don't have to upgrade the PC ever. You can keep what you have and just buy a whole new one, just like with a console. The fact that you CAN upgrade is a benifit, not a drawback. Besides, The consoles are moving into the upgrade direction anyway. After all, MS isn't just shipping the Kinect to every 360 owner for free. It is an upgrade to the system. The PS3 and Wii have also had their own upgrades.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[mrchaotica]

What about PBS; is that safe from Sony?

Re:Boycott Sony!

[mrchaotica]

MMC is very related, in the sense that SD is just MMC + DRM support. MemoryStick was pointlessly created to compete with MMC, because Sony can't bear to support a standard that it doesn't control.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Boycott Nintendo, too:

You understand that the Nintendo 3DS System specifications and the Nintendo 3DS Service are constantly evolving and that we [Nintendo] may update or change the Nintendo 3DS System or the Nintendo 3DS Service in whole or in part, without notice to you. Such updates may be required for you to play new Nintendo 3DS games, enjoy new features, or continue to access the Nintendo 3DS Service. After the Nintendo 3DS menu is updated, any existing or future unauthorized technical modification of the hardware or software of your Nintendo 3DS System, or the use of an unauthorized device in connection with your system, will render the system permanently unplayable. Content deriving from the unauthorized modification of the hardware or software of your Nintendo 3DS system will be removed. Failure to accept the update may render games and new features unplayable.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[just fiddling around]

last time I built a PC for gaming, the video card alone cost more than the PS2 I bought after dropping Grand Theft Auto 3 in it and being forced to reduce detail and textures to min to make it work.

I highly doubt that a PC *can* be built to handle console-style games for 3 years after it's purchase. Video cards have a useful gaming life of about 6 months to a year after launch. In contrast, consoles have at least 5 good years after launch and then stagnate for a while before games are not made for it anymore.

Money talks and says: buy a console to play.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[cheekyjohnson]

he could cheat

Could? I'd only ban them if they did cheat.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[cheekyjohnson]

Anything can be "evil" to someone. The definition is subjective.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[eleuthero]

...or even that he is hoping to sell his ps3 for money towards the xbox.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[cheekyjohnson]

It's possible. I don't buy movies, music, or have any sort of cable TV.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[eleuthero]

In his defense, I haven't turned my television on in two or three weeks. I have watched four shows on the Internet, one of which was cooking. Two of the others I skimmed through... I have this odd desire to at least know how Stargate ends having watched the previous fifteen years of the SGuniverse even if I don't sit through the mindnumbingly awful episodes in full (also did this with the last two seasons of Atlantis)--which boils down to the two most recent episodes watched at double speed with skipping to a grand total of less than forty minutes. The final program, NCIS is also something that I started watching a long while back and simply want to know how it ends.

Television grows boring over time... as do movies (haven't been to the theater and had to pay for it since Inception, though I did catch the latest Narnia flick on a free pre-release showing). Music can be had for free (weekly free downloads from amazon and itunes) and though this means my collection grows slowly and I have to sort through junk... who doesn't sort through junk in a regular album anyway? Life without the opiate of the modern entertainment industry is quite nice--we have a fairly extensive garden and have done a number of house projects this year.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[eonlabs]

I think this decision is along the lines of thought someone mentioned above. Sony generally figures out who their majority users are and tries to screw over as many people who are not in that group as possible. This especially includes those who are not actually purchasing their hardware if possible (proprietary memory/DRM/etc...), but if they can prune down to their target audience without casualty, it makes it easier to market to that target. They made a clear mistake here, but you can see the logic they followed.

This is a gaming machine and they want gamers to use it. If you're a gamer and not a developer who might be interested in the otheros feature of the device, you are in the vast majority of the population using the system, and therefore not a threat. If you're a pure research group and you want to make these machines into a super computer, just don't upgrade. They've covered their bases on that front because you're not likely going to see the airforce decide they want to use their supercomputer for gaming. In fact, they would probably prefer to discourage their users from doing just that. This leaves the group I mentioned before. Anyone who is a gamer who would like to play with the hardware as well. This group can be split into two. Those who want to actively break into the system (a very small minority), and those who hold it as their right to play with the hardware (and it is their right since it was an advertised feature), which includes those who want to use the hardware for research projects on the side.

The mistake sony made was this. They slammed the door in the face of the community that prides itself on being able to work its way around the word proprietary. In an effort to "protect their IP" they have unleashed the streisand effect and pushed a lot of people who were in the developer's group directly into the "we have a right to hack this hardware group" and opened the flood gates to all their friends as well.

Where do I stand on this? I have my backwards compatible 80gb model. It works fine. I have played it about 3 times since April 1st last year and I have not paid a cent to Sony in that time. Before that, I probably clocked a good hundred hours on the console... on one game... in about 3 months... and was buying DLC within 15 minutes of release if I thought it looked interesting.

I'll vote with my wallet. Sony's rationalization of theft to prevent theft is deplorable.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[cheekyjohnson]

I don't need to upgrade my PC every few months to play the latest games, either. That only happens if, at the time of upgrade, you're being incredibly cheap. I bought a new $700 computer a few years ago and have been able to play all of the latest games since. You may or may not be speaking of playing them on the highest settings (which I don't do), but I don't care about that anyway. They work. But, surprisingly, I can play most of them on the highest settings.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that it's abusive to require Gold for just Netflix, that's just ridiculous, but the Gold service itself is fine. I don't mind paying $5 for their extensive online service, and I find it helps cut down (somewhat) on raging preteens. Many still get mommy and daddy to pay up, but on PSN it seems I'm the only adult around, while every other player is a team-killing imbecile whose vocabulary consists exclusively of the words "nigger" and "faggot". I would gladly pay $20 a month just to keep those missed abortions out of my headset...

I have 3 words to describe this: Quality of Service. When you pay for something, you expect a certain quality of service, which is generally granted to you because it helps you keep paying for the service. With PSN being free, there are no expectations of maintaining any form of quality of service aside from the service being online, you cannot guarantee that Sony will do much of anything when you have a problem with the service.

That said, it still irks me that Netflix is a gold required service, even if I don't use it.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[cheekyjohnson]

Two of those choices equate to supporting Microsoft.

Do you mean buying Windows? If so, just download it. In fact, I can't think of why you would be support Microsoft by buying a PC.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Americium]

And it's $99/yr to be a xbox arcade developer. Super easy to write and deploy. Sony on the other hand?

Re:Boycott Sony!

[daid303]

FYI, they only ban people that cheat (or run modifications on games while they play online) they don't ban you from online play for just having homebrew channel installed (for example) or having a modchip installed.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[L4t3r4lu5]

Please, tell me how a gaming PC costs more than a console, a sound system, and an HDTV. Let's not get into how console games are on average 30% more expensive than their PC counterparts.

You can get a gaming PC (which you can work on) capable of a great experience at HD resolutions, including a screen, for £1000. You'll pay the same for a console, HDTV, sound system, PVR, and laptop / desktop work PC. It's just a matter of preference.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[AmonTheMetalhead]

I still buy Sony stuff, and i'll probably continue in the future. They have some pretty damn good camera's.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[FlyveHest]

On the other hand, a firmware update on a 360, or a game download, takes a couple of minutes .. On a PS3, it can take 30 minutes easy for a FW update.

And games or patch downloads ...

Re:Boycott Sony!

[James_Duncan8181]

This guy is an idiot, oh, sure he's smart to crack the PS3, and so on, but lacks the street smarts to know that you play with fire you can get burned. Weather he wins or loses it's a moot point, he'll be up to his eyeballs in debt when this is over.

Actually, Geohot is paying for his legal defence via donations. As the Groklaw link I suspect you haven't read states, it's working out reasonably well.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[KillaBeave]

Please, tell me how a gaming PC costs more than a console, a sound system, and an HDTV. Let's not get into how console games are on average 30% more expensive than their PC counterparts. You can get a gaming PC (which you can work on) capable of a great experience at HD resolutions, including a screen, for £1000. You'll pay the same for a console, HDTV, sound system, PVR, and laptop / desktop work PC. It's just a matter of preference.

Because nobody owns an HDTV, sound system, PVR and laptop for reasons other than wanting a gaming console? Really?

In my household we've went laptop only precisely to save the space that a computer desk takes up. Well not 100% truthful there, we still have a tiny Atom PC in a corner running as a NAS and print server. That said, I'm on /. and would wager that the non /. crowd has even less of a need for a stationary desktop ... likely this need is approaching 0.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you say that Microsoft is less evil? They openly sold a defective games console even though they new that the majority of them would probably not last until the warranty ended. When people's consoles started to break they denied that the console was faulty, despite having a huge failure rate during manufacturing and having thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of faulty machines in a warehouse somewhere. They eventually owned up to the problem when the failure rate became so high that people started suing.

The thing about Microsoft fanboys is they still protect Microsoft with regards to the above. They state that Microsoft did a good thing by extending the warranty to 3 years! To them it doesn't matter that the company openly sold a defective product!!

And with regards to Sony suing some people! It isn't just because they hacked the system, but because George Hotz published the privates and openly advertised how to break into the system by posting videos up on the internet. Honestly, the guy is a dickhead. I can't see why anyone defends him!

Re:Boycott Sony!

[L4t3r4lu5]

My point is that in order to have a games console with the same functionality as a gaming PC, you need all of those devices. The console outputs at HD resolutions and are designed to be played from a distance of approx. 6', so you get an HDTV. You get 5.1 sound over HDMI and the TV speakers are tinny, so you get a speaker system. You can't record TV on a console, so you get a PVR. You can't do your work on a console, so you get a laptop.

I can do all of these things on my gaming PC, and it cost approximately the same. You don't need all of the items, but it's a comparison of functionality. That's all.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they have no obligation to support Netflix, but they don't have to, Netflix can do that, Microsoft just has to let it be available to all Xbox owners, not just exclusive to Gold subscriptions.

Maybe this is what Netflix wanted (but I can't see why), however in the UK the BBC wanted to make an iPlayer app for the 360, but Microsoft told them if they did it would have to be available for gold members only, this is against the BBC charter which states they can't charge license payers for things like this (sorry I don't know the exact wording), so no iPlayer app has been released for the 360. Nintendo don't expect people to pay for an iPlayer app, Microsoft do.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Xest]

It's not really a myth, it's historical.

There was a long period where if you wanted to play new releases you had to have a PC that was no more than about a year or so old unless you were happy with the games looking and running shit.

You're right it's less of an issue nowadays because advancement in the PC gaming market largely seems to have stalled, this is partly because whilst for a while there was a rapid increase in availability of resolutions from the circa ~320x200 point all the way up to 1920x1200 which has now stalled around that mark for a few years, but it's also because there seems to be less focus on writing games that need cutting edge (or even not yet released) hardware to get full benefit of max resolution and decent framerate. I can now buy a brand new game on the PC and run it in max detail at 1920x1200 on my PC that's knocking on for 3 years old now- that would've been completely unheard of 10 years ago, such a system would probably struggle to run the game in an acceptable way at all.

I suspect though part the reason new PC titles don't push the hardware to the limits like they used to is because it's just not that great a business model. In doing so you're limiting the amount of possible customers, and as the industry has matured it's become much less about creating cutting edge ground breaking games and more about reaching the largest possible customer base you can, hence why games are more often built around the lowest common denominator.

Take Starcraft 2 for example, there was really little about the game technologically that wasn't in games released years beforehand. In contrast, look at the difference between Quake and Quake 2, Quake 2 and Half-Life etc. Things moved much faster back then. That's not to say this is a bad thing, it's good in a way precisely because it does remove the prohibitive costs of PC gaming where you really did used to need to upgrade every year or two, but let's not pretend that this is completely a myth- PC gaming really did used to have this problem so it's not a completely unfounded complaint.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[ifrag]

but on the console I can have pretty good settings if not the same quality as the PC.

This is for the most part completely false, the exception being the shitty console ports that just copy everything directly. The simple fact is many console games are not even rendering at 1080p because it cannot get a smooth frame rate at that resolution. Some games are even rendering below 720p. So already the quality has taken a drastic drop due to the upscaling, possibly even for the lower end HD, and that doesn't even consider the advanced effects settings. Of course you may consider this a benefit, that you don't have a lot of menu sliders to play with, but for games that are made with a good scalable engine, your console is certainly not running it with anything close to the "extreme" end visuals on a PC.

On the PC when I set my resolution to 1080p, I'm getting actual 1080p rendering and still managing to get 60 fps. If that can be done with the sliders maxed, on a good engine, the quality comparison isn't even in the same ballpark.

I guess people just like to feel like they are not getting the inferior experience, so they spew this stuff out about equal performance. Maybe if you say it enough you'll start believing it too.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

because Sony can't bear to support a standard that it doesn't control.

Swap Sony for Microsoft and you then have general computing.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[ashidosan]

The target for a PC game is continually being updated; a game franchise on PC that has releases 3 years apart is going to have far different minimum requirements than the same franchise released on consoles. Consoles are a known hardware target.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok. One (Lik Sang) was taken to court for basically infringing on Sony's market. Sony have an EU division that sells PSPs. Lik Sang basically imported PSPs cheaper and sold them on the grey market. This is deemed illegal (same as the clothes industry).

Matthew Crippen hacked Xboxes for payment. He was taken to court over it. The case was dropped because of an incompetent prosecution, not because they decided that he wasn't doing anything wrong.

So, what do both that to do with the statement:
"Microsoft's Xbox 360 do have DRM, but they don't do shit like this."

I suppose you mean that Microsoft do take hackers to court, or in this case modders.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[KingMotley]

That is because Nintendo sells their units above cost, so they don't really care what people do with them. Microsoft sells their XBox units at a loss, and they only break even/make a profit if people buy accessories, games, or gold memberships. If they allowed free netflix and iPlayer on the XBox, then many might buy one (or more) units to stream movies to their TVs, and they would lose money on each one.

They could fix it I suppose by charging $200 more per unit, but then most of the complainers would still be complaining.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[KingMotley]

Sure, have two devices. Keep them both plugged in, and figure out how much you are paying for them over the course of 3 years in electricity. Don't forget to add in the extra cost of batteries for the remote (or maybe you have a universal remote?). Hope that nothing changes in those 3 years that you might wan to upgrade as well.

That's a lot of IFs, and a lot of headache to save a few bucks (if any), but feel free if you are that strapped for cash.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Belial6]

You apparently ignored what I said when you said that I am wrong historically. Saying "max detail at "1920x1200" is an irrelevent metric in comparing PC games to consoles. Why? Because there isn't a single console game ever made that run at 1920x1200. 10 years ago, you game that you say "without the game looking and running like shit", but they ran at full speed and look just as good as any of the consoles. Remember, 10 years ago consoles maxed out at 720×576, and for North America, it was 720×480. The games you say looked and played like shit, worked fine at those resolutions.

That is why it is a myth. People believed that the lack of ability to run at higher resolutions somehow made the console look better. It didn't, and it still doesn't.

Again, comparing the look, or the playability of any PC game to a console at a resolution higher than what a standard TV can display is perpetuating a myth.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[bhtooefr]

Do you have a laptop? If so, who makes the battery? It's probably Sanyo or Sony.

Do you have anything that has an H.264 decoder in it? (This includes Windows, OS X, and most smartphones.) If so, Sony gets licensing fees.

Do you have a digital camera or camcorder? If so, who makes the CCD or CMOS sensor? Sony makes those, too.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Geminii]

We really need a list of companies in order of evil. Or would it be specific divisions or policies of companies? Maybe it'd be a conglomeration of several ratings from 1-5, so you could see how a company rated at Screwing Customers, Being Asshats, Bending Laws, Kicking Puppies etc.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[poetmatt]

Yes, it's historical. It's what it *USED* to be and not at all what it is today.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[poetmatt]

Video cards have a useful gaming life of about 3 years, if you actually get a good unit (read: good units of today are in the $200 range, not in the $600 range).

Re:Boycott Sony!

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

There's a huge difference between having new input options and new video cards.

New input devices have been around since the 2600. Paddles come to mind.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Belial6]

Historically TVs only had 720x576, and PCs played that just fine without regular updates. The screen resolution has changed, but the principle hasn't. When comparing apples to apples, since the advent of VGA, the PC has looked just as good and played just as well as the consoles.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Xest]

You're suggesting that resolution is the only factor in visual quality. This is completely and utterly wrong and why your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Xest]

If you put down your rabid fanboy glasses for just a second you'd see that that's basically exactly what I said, hence the use of terms such as "historical".

I was merely pointing out that whilst he's right today, he's wrong to suggest it's always been the case that PC gaming doesn't have a much higher cost in terms of frequency of upgrades, certainly it did in the past. To try and claim that's always been a myth is to completely rewrite history.

As I say, I don't disagree that it's not that way anymore.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[poetmatt]

rabid fanboy glasses? hahah. sure, whatever. Let's put another label on things while our head is in our ass, shall we?

I just don't see an actual logical value to consoles, and knew that someone would pull this "Wah pc's are more expensive" shit right from the getgo. I was just reafirming the point of "historical".

Re:Boycott Sony!

[Belial6]

I do no such thing. There is also color depth that I have indeed mentioned. Everything else is processing power. The processing power increases with color depth and resolution. PCs have historically as well as currently been plenty powerful enough to process the images as well or better than consoles at the color depth and resolutions that the consoles max out at. In an apples to apples comparison, PCs have matched consoles since the VGA was introduced with no more upgrading than with a console.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[mrchaotica]

Sony generally figures out who their majority users are and tries to screw over as many people who are not in that group as possible.... This is a gaming machine and they want gamers to use it.

Oh really? Then how do you explain their "it only does everything" marketing?

Re:Boycott Sony!

[grumbel]

There's only one case I know of (console to console compare) where Microsoft is still more evil than Sony.

There is plenty more where Sony is still far more open. While the PS3 for example supports standard USB and Blutooth devices (headsets, controller, USB sticks, etc.), Xbox360 supports none of that, it is not only proprietary protocols, but specifically designed to block third suppliers. Only exceptions are USB sticks, which they added support for a few month back. Same with HDD, you can slam any regular HDD into the PS3, Microsoft wants you to buy a special Microsoft HDD. Basically Microsoft will try everything it can to get a monopoly and block out competition, while Sony is actually rather open. That of course doesn't stop Sony from going crazy with the copy protection and the following lawsuits, but as far as console goes, Microsoft is really no alternative. If Sony isn't good enough, there really is only one alternative: don't buy a game console and use a PC.

Re:Boycott Sony!

[eonlabs]

It actually does pay to let everyone in the door when you first open it. You will lose some people right off the bat. Get a broad starting audience to narrow down from. Once you can measure who your target audience is, then prune to it. Fits the "it only does everything" marketing AND the delay between initial release and the sharper cuts. Half the trick of making money is knowing when not to spend it.

skip ars technica

[SpiralSpirit]

skip ars technica and go straight to groklaw http://www.groklaw.net/

Re:skip ars technica

[SomePgmr]

In defence of Ars, they almost always add quite a lot to the conversation in the way of context and intelligent explanation. It's not like a PC World write-up just ripping off the source.

Re:skip ars technica

[poetmatt]

Ars almost adds a whole lot of misinformation, and I would not suggest reading Ars if you want actual factual information that is unbiased and/or factual. Microsoft writer makes an op-ed rallying against android? say it ain't so! etc.

Groklaw, on the other hand, actually provides relative analysis and makes sense of the legal shit that would otherwise be skipped as TLDR or just generally not make sense.

Re:skip ars technica

[Jeek Elemental]

I used to have a bit of respect for ars, but after the embarrasing paid-for articles regarding mpeg and webm I dont trust or read them anymore.

Re:skip ars technica

[Weedhopper]

Ars is all over the map in terms of quality. Ars science writing and engineering overviews are as good as it gets for educated lay audiences. Other stuff is above average, depending on who is doing the writing. Ars gaming content - meh. And the recent "Ask Ars" responses make me wonder about the editorial staff - articles that get basic transfer speeds of popular media wrong and confuse bits and bytes?

I read Ars almost every day but I don't have nearly the amount of respect for most of their non science content as I used to

Re:skip ars technica

[Anonymous Coward]

Just don't trust anything written by Peter Bright.

Re:skip ars technica

[Anonymous Coward]

Groklaw has its own biases whenever IBM comes into the picture. I recommend reading them all and making up your own mind.

That said, I think they've done an excellent job on the GeoHot case, it's only some of the more hyperbolic things PJ writes about how we all should respect evil EULAs that claim the right to one's firstborn that I find horribly grating.

Re:skip ars technica

[markass530]

the Summary links to groklaw as well, a direct link in fact

Re:skip ars technica

[Anonymous Coward]

Groklaw had the story first, ars then does one
the next day and links to a site that cites
Groklaw and says it got its docs there, and
ars never mentions Groklaw.

Come on.

Re:skip ars technica

[bye]

Groklaw has its own biases whenever IBM comes into the picture.

Is Groklaw somewhat scared about SCO/Microsoft and does that show in the articles? Sure.

Is Groklaw generally wrong or misleading? Not at all: it is possible to keep fact separated from opinion. Journalists understand that and are able to do that just fine - unless their salary depends on not understanding it.

Furthermore, PJ's paranoia about SCO/Microsoft seems to be rather well founded .

So as far as journalistic integrity goes, Groklaw is top notch.

Won't matter

[elrous0]

Sony is rich and powerful, and has the best lawyers at their disposal. They can even call on Congress and the President to help them out, and rewrite the laws if they have to.

He's just a little guy. At most he might have the backing of the EFF and some donations.

I hate to be so cynical, but so far Sony has won every round in this case. The courts are falling all over themselves giving Sony whatever they've asked for, no matter how outrageous. I'd like to think the little guy can win, but really, how often does that actually happen anymore?

Re:Won't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Jimmy Stewart managed to pull it off single-handedly, and he's something of a goofy doofus.

Re:Won't matter

[jd]

Depends on how many ninjas the EFF can call on. A few magic mushrooms in Sony's lawyers' coffee and even the courts would have a hard time being sympathetic.

Re:Won't matter

[ohnocitizen]

The more attention this battle gets, the better his chances. If it looks like Sony is so sloppy and zealous they'd happily railroad an innocent man, enough press will ensure some damage to their reputation. Plus as these stories continue to grow, and as people continue to see corporations in control of both parties in the US, we can look forward to an ever growing fountain of anger and desire for real change. Of course I am as much of a cynic as you are, so my bet is that all that ever growing rage translates into is more Obama like candidates to soak up the rage and yield minor changes once in office.

Re:Won't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

... from the wikipedia page:

"successfully represented Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s family in a lawsuit over the CBS network's unauthorized use of the famous "I Have a Dream" speech"

WTF? Isn't that *exactly* what should be public domain?

Re:Won't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

An innocent man? We don't have the power to say he is innocent. We can't say he is guilty either - although it looks like he might be. But the trial will sort that out. Just because the DMCA is a BAD law doesn't mean people aren't guilty when they violate its provisions. It just means we need to work harder to get the law fixed. But until it is fixed (fat chance there), people who violate it are certainly going to be found guilty. Did GeoHot violate it? The info released in the press so far would seem to indicate that he probably did. We'll have to see when the details about jurisdiction and all (just delay tactics really) get worked out. Eventually some court will have jurisdiction and Sony will go there and present whatever evidence they may have.

Re:Won't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

The more attention this battle gets, the better his chances. If it looks like Sony is so sloppy and zealous they'd happily railroad an innocent man, enough press will ensure some damage to their reputation.

Someone please remind me how many times Sony's reputation has been damaged in, say, the past ten years. Stuff like, say, arrogance, brazen price gouging, rootkits, etc, etc. Then someone tell me if that's affected their bottom line at all.

Once that flagrant display of consumer apathy finally winds its way into your mind (it may take a while, I'll admit, given a couple decades of the jackhammer-like drilling of this information into your head hasn't done it yet), then you'll understand why they just do not care, and why they just do not HAVE to care.

Re:Won't matter

[DMoylan]

> how often does that actually happen anymore?

not often. but when you feel down about it watch/read about

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLibel_(film)

it will cheer you up.

Re:Won't matter

[elrous0]

Yeah, but that was in Europe (where DVD Jon also ultimately prevailed). Trying to take on the big guy in the U.S. is a helluva lot tougher.

Re:Won't matter

[guruevi]

The King family has been cashing in on the dear doctors name for years now. They don't really care about the plight of the ones they once lead, at most they'll give a political sound bite on these issues now.

Re:Won't matter

[elrous0]

Not only that, but his kids have been suing each other and alleging fraud over all that money since Coretta King's death. The family has become a fractured mess of corruption and sibling bitterness. Just sad.

Re:Won't matter

[jd]

Sure, but copyright has nothing to do with logic. If you have any sound recordings from 1972 or earlier, they're all copyright (in the US). I mean ANY amount earlier. It is an act of piracy to download an MP3 rip from one of Edison's wax cylinders. Those most definitely should also be public domain by now, but they won't be until 2067.

Re:Won't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_of_Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.,_Inc._v._CBS,_Inc. If you're arguing that it should be public domain because he was dead, then perhaps you're right. The case was decided in 1999, and he died in 1968. If you're arguing that public speeches should be public domain, then you'll need to justify your claim.

Re:Won't matter

[ohnocitizen]

A good point. If it turns out he is innocent though and he still loses the trial, then that would be quite the pickle...

Re:Won't matter

[StikyPad]

Civil lawsuits don't establish innocence or guilt, only liability.

Re:Won't matter

[ohnocitizen]

It happens: http://seekingalpha.com/article/19019-sony-s-damaged-reputation-has-its-costs I agree with you, most consumers are quite apathetic. But that doesn't inure Sony to the fruits of their labors. And the more bad press they get, the more agitators become aware of the situation - the kind of people with the means and motivation to have a positive impact on the roles of corporations in society.

Re:Won't matter

[Ruke]

Without a specific legal basis, I would imagine that Mr. King's speech would be public domain because it was a public speech and plays such a large role in our cultural identity.

This certainly isn't a legal argument, and isn't intended to be. However, as a legal layman, it simply seems perverse that such a historically significant appeal to the public isn't in the public domain.

Re:Won't matter

[hedwards]

You overestimate the masses. Clearly Geohot is guilty, otherwise Sony wouldn't be suing him. Plus, he admitted cracking the protection scheme which could lead to losses of jobs after everybody stops buying games and just pirates them./sarcasm

Re:Won't matter

[blair1q]

Nope.

If you want to hear it, you know how to find it.

Re:Won't matter

[j33px0r]

US Copyright law, though rather complicated, does not typically include any works before 1923. Edison's wax cylinders would not be typically covered by copyright though I'm sure that the RIAA could find a couple exceptions.

Re:Won't matter

[queBurro]

he's being charged with hacking into his own console and then tell others how to hack into their own consoles isn't he? so he's not actually guilty of anything if I lose my car-keys tonight I'm not going to get arrested for hot wiring my own car and then posting on my blog how I managed it (am I?)

Re:Won't matter

[ohnocitizen]

Heh, you forgot your open tag for the sarcasm. In any case, the masses are waking up to corporate exploitation. Look at the campaigns targeting mega corps who aren't pulling their weight in taxes...

Damn. Fresh outta mod points

[killmenow]

+1

It's an outrage!

[oldhack]

Not one of the sentences in the summary makes any sense to me.

Re:It's an outrage!

[kbob88]

Yeah, thanks for the summary with no explanatory information whatsoever for anyone not familiar with this case already. The Ars article didn't really explain much about it either. Not sure how I missed such a huge news story, maybe I was reading about minor stuff like tsunamis...

But hey, it's /., so the summary has at least met my expectations. ;-)

Open up the donations!

[future assassin]

I need to donate some more to the legal fund for some serious Sony whoopa$$

Yeah,. right

[Locke2005]

"Your honor, my client couldn't possibly have known that SCEA was located in California, because he is utterly incapable of using Google! I rest my case."

I not clear on how not knowing where a company is headquartered helps GeoHotz's case.

Re:Yeah,. right

[One Louder]

There's no way to know without opening the manually that SCEA even exists. He bought a product manufactured by SCEI, not SCEA. SCEI is based in Japan.

Re:Yeah,. right

[compro01]

I not clear on how not knowing where a company is headquartered helps GeoHotz's case.

It matters for arguing that California is an inappropriate venue. The case being in California could be disastrous, as it would be expensive for geohot to appear in court for his defense.

Also, I believe California has some whacky trade secret laws Sony could utilize.

Re:Yeah,. right

[Jaqenn]

Sony filed their case in California. They want the case tried in California for lots of reasons, probably including that it is close and convenient. Or maybe they know the state's laws better? Or maybe they think that what he did is illegal in California but not elsewhere?

Sony is trying to demonstrate that they had a working relationship with GeoHotz in California, then time went by, then he wronged them, so the case should be tried in California.

GeoHotz wants the case tried in his home state (New Jersey). He probably wants this for lots of reasons, including that it is close and convenient. Or maybe his lawyer knows the state's laws better? Or maybe what he did is illegal in California but not in New Jersey? So he is trying to demonstrate that everything that matters in the case happened in his home state, so it should be tried there. This apparently involves demonstrating that he never had a working relationship with Sony in California.

Re:Yeah,. right

[slimjim8094]

IADefinitelyNAL, but aren't trade secret protections useless if somebody reverse-engineers your product? That's why they're somewhat the opposite of patents - if you patent something, you disclose how you do it but you legally prevent others from doing it until the patent expires. If it's a trade secret, nobody can look it up - but if somebody figured out the process independently there's no protection. Unless they're going to argue that GeoHot stole the secret without finding it independently...

Re:Yeah,. right

[jd]

Do you need "California" and "whacky"? Surely one makes the other redundant in the sentance.

Re:Yeah,. right

[dasdrewid]

I still feel like "The manuals contained information on how SCEA is located in California? The manuals were never opened." isn't that different from shouting "NANANANANANANANACANTHEARYOUNANANANANANA" while you have your fingers in your ears, as far as a defense goes...

Don't get me wrong, I hope he wins this. I just don't know that it's quite the "slam" the submitter thinks it is...

Re:Yeah,. right

[Gaygirlie]

I still feel like "The manuals contained information on how SCEA is located in California? The manuals were never opened." isn't that different from shouting "NANANANANANANANACANTHEARYOUNANANANANANA" while you have your fingers in your ears, as far as a defense goes...

Don't get me wrong, I hope he wins this. I just don't know that it's quite the "slam" the submitter thinks it is...

Sony claims he would have known where SCEA is located and that he is dealing with SCEA. But that is ONLY mentioned in the manual, nowhere else: not on the PS3 itself, not on the box, not in firmware.. And if he never read the manual there simply is no reason to expect him to have known about SCEA in the first place. Hell, I too own a PS3 and I had never even heard of SCEA before this whole thing started.

That's the whole point: no one can prove in any way or form that he should logically have known of the existence of SCEA, let alone where it is located, and that's why it is such a slam-dunk for defence.

Re:Yeah,. right

[tinkerghost]

I not clear on how not knowing where a company is headquartered helps GeoHotz's case.

SCEA is trying to sue in CA because they want to make it as expensive as possible for Hotz (a NJ resident). Part of the claim they are making is that he 'directed his actions against SCEA in CA'.

If he was unaware that SCEA was in CA, he couldn't have directed his action towards CA. Essentially, Hotz is trying to get the case dismissed in CA for lack of personal jurisdiction. If he succeeds, SCEA will have to refile in NJ, a state not quite as tied to the entertainment industry.

Re:Yeah,. right

[Chyeld]

Ok, here's one. WTF does SCEA have any jurisdiction to bring this mater forward? What legal standing do they have?

The console is made in Japan. The rights are own by the Japanese company. The business agreement they tried to fuck Geohot over indicate clearly that SCEA knows this. The SDK that they were trying to prove was on Geohot's hard drive doesn't even contain any information concerning the SCEA. So what is their legal standing here?

Forget whether or not it's reasonable to assume that everyone knows that the SCEA even exists, lets start with the basics. Can it even be shown that they have the right to bring this civil suit?

Re:Yeah,. right

[yeshuawatso]

If I were on a jury panel, I could see the case about not knowing where the company is located. I'm sure most American's aren't aware that Sony is located in CA. I knew they had a studio in CA, but didn't know the entire American branch was there too. Furthermore, their LLC registration in California points to Delaware and that registration we can't see without paying a little extra to the Delaware Department of State. So are they a Californian company or a Delawarean company?

Re:Yeah,. right

[Anonymous Coward]

Proximity and convenience have nothing to do with it, air fare is a pittance compared to the losses & gains exploited in a favourable legal machine. It is all about the battlefield; SONY is trying to pick this fight on their own terms, in a state that biases media corporations. I mean, you don't think SONY headquartered themselves in California for the hook...actresses, do you?

Re:Yeah,. right

[Anonymous Coward]

Every PS1 game had a great big SCEA logo on startup. The PS2 also displayed SCEA information on system startup. I really don't know why they stopped that practice.. but obviously it's biting them in the ass now.

Re:Yeah,. right

[gordguide]

Ok, here's one. WTF does SCEA have any jurisdiction to bring this mater forward? What legal standing do they have?

The console is made in Japan. The rights are own by the Japanese company. The business agreement they tried to fuck Geohot over indicate clearly that SCEA knows this. The SDK that they were trying to prove was on Geohot's hard drive doesn't even contain any information concerning the SCEA. So what is their legal standing here?

Forget whether or not it's reasonable to assume that everyone knows that the SCEA even exists, lets start with the basics. Can it even be shown that they have the right to bring this civil suit?

Keeping in mind that I don't know either way what is the case here, one answer to your question can be found by examining what "rights" are and what they are not. They are not a whole thing, except insofar as the entire possible universe of rights are granted at the time a creative work is created. Once created as a whole, they can be cut, chopped, divided, limited, granted and revoked in literally infinite ways.

SONY could, as a way of example, give the rights to all SONY's IP now and forever to Billy Bob's Pizza Parlour in San Diego, while retaining all other rights everywhere else on Earth. They could give the rights to all SONY's IP now and forever but only on Tuesdays and only in months ending in "Y", and give the other rights to Betty Bob's Taco House in Cleveland.

Rights can be assigned to anyone, in whole or in part, and with whatever limits a gaggle of lawyers think prudent or profitable, or alternately, a team of third graders might decide would be "fun" to play with.

So, in answer to at least part of your question, SCEA could easily own the rights in question here, while SONY Japan retains any rights not assigned to SCEA.

Re:Yeah,. right

[Anonymous Coward]

If you own a Playstation of any generation, then I've no idea what you've been doing with it because you obviously haven't been playing games. Every time you turn the thing on it gives an advertisement for Sony Computer Entertainment America along with their little marketing sound that is designed to be associated with SCEA. Practically all the games fast credits in the beginning make mention of SCEA or Sony Computer Entertainment America.

Re:Yeah,. right

[Patch86]

I'm not that familiar with California's legal system, but in most places Trade Secrets aren't protected in the same way as copyright or patents.

Usually, the only way to protect a Trade Secret is through contract law (non-disclosure agreements, non-compete clauses in employment contracts, etc.). I suppose there could be something regarding Trade Secrets in the product's EULA/T&C, but who knows (I don't).

graphing calculator?

[fish waffle]

Now, after Mr. Hotz's computer hard drives, and a graphing calculator have been impounded

Surely that was inadequate---what if he counted on his fingers?

Re:graphing calculator?

[xavierwyvern]

Now, after Mr. Hotz's computer hard drives, and a graphing calculator have been impounded

Surely that was inadequate---what if he counted on his fingers?

Now Nintendo is going to sue Hotz for having an emulator on his calculator to play The Legend of Zelda....(joking of course)

Re:graphing calculator?

[pgn674]

Apparently, he did have something on the graphing calculator. To quote Mr. Hotz in a declaration to the court in April,

The impounded hard drives and calculator were and are the only storage devices in my possession, custody or control, containing the Code that achieves interoperability between computer programs at the time of the the impoundment order.

Re:graphing calculator?

[Gaygirlie]

Don't worry, Sony has most likely already drafted up a proposal for confiscating his fingers too, preferably with something very dull and painful.

Re:graphing calculator?

[nastro]

When you turn it upside down, it says BOOBS. Send this man to prison.

Re:graphing calculator?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone remember Mad Magazine's hand calculator, and the "erase" function?

Sparticus

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm blickmanic!

Hey Sony! Pack up your bags and leave

[csaw.csaw]

It's so funny that Sony picks a fight that Apple has lost. Throws money at the problem and hopes for the best. 1st - This is 2011. Google/Slashdot helps to get the real news out on big spending idiots who think they can push around the little guy 2nd - Apple seems to be doing just fine. I can empty a clip into a legally purchased iPhone 6 with iOS 14 and Steve Jobs could only say, "Thanks for the business :( " If I buy your *precious* PS3 it's MINE. Not yours Duh! 3rd - Sony rootkit anyone. This company makes great equipment but need a lot of work with handling customer affairs. Stop attacking ppl BIG COMPANIES. Our generation will screw in the end. - dbnr

Re:Hey Sony! Pack up your bags and leave

[Anonymous Coward]

*emptied a magazine

Unless you're using an M1 Garand, in which case I have to ask: Why are you using an M-1 Garand?

Re:Hey Sony! Pack up your bags and leave

[mlts]

Devil's advocate stand here:

This isn't a fight that Apple lost; this is a fight Apple has not decided to push. If Apple really wanted to fight this, they could:

1: Reword all cellular carrier agreements where they will drop service and blacklist any devices suspected of being jailbroken (downloading stuff from Cydia repos for example.)

2: Encrypt bootloaders, and have the baseband hand the keys to the OS. This is how Motorola does it, and so far, the trouble of cracking Moto's encrypted bootloaders have gotten modders to move elsewhere.

3: Push software down to the iPhones periodically to search for jailbreaks. If devices are JB-ed, all Apple IDs connected with them would be banned. MS does with the XBoxes, Valve does this with VAC, etc.

4: Have the baseband software and processor (IIRC, the radio uses a separate processor than the main OS), act as a TPM. If the running OS isn't signed, put the device in DFU mode until a valid copy of the IPSW is put on.

5: Ask cellular carriers to cough up IP records of anyone who bought programs through Cydia, cross reference the IMEIs, and when it comes for an iOS update, blacklist all IMEIs gathered which are suspected during the SHSH negotation process.

6: Have a firmware eFuse counter that only allows for flashing higher versions (assuming they are not betas).

7: Separate the iPhones into different models, each having different hardware protection, and when rev B is put out, anyone caught using rev A exploits is banned from cellular networked via IMEI, and their Apple IDs are banned.

8: Get with cellular carriers and lease iPhones the way Ma Bell used to lease telephones. This + a EULA would mean that jailbreaking would be against the law because it wouldn't be the owner's device.

Re:Hey Sony! Pack up your bags and leave

[tinkerghost]

Because he couldn't find a .50 cal sniper rifle?

Re:Hey Sony! Pack up your bags and leave

[Anonymous Coward]

Garands aren't the only rifles that can use stripper clips. Having a working poor, mostly rural, ex-military extended family in the south of the US teaches you these kinds of things. But, yeah, he probably means a magazine. It doesn't help that they are commonly called banana clips on rifles and that "magazine" also refers to a common form of periodical.

Re:Hey Sony! Pack up your bags and leave

[yeshuawatso]

What about iPods and iPads? Comparing a phone to a dedicated gaming/entertainment device isn't a fair comparison. Furthermore, banning one from playing online vs banning one from making and receiving phone calls just because the device has unauthorized software is a way to quickly get the Feds on your ass. Playing online is a feature, not a requirement. For a phone to make a phone call isn't a feature, it's a requirement. But, to play debaters, let's look at your proposals:

"1: Reword all cellular carrier agreements where they will drop service and blacklist any devices suspected of being jailbroken (downloading stuff from Cydia repos for example.)"

Go ahead, drop service. Give me a REASON to drop my contract, especially if you're mistaken.

"2: Encrypt bootloaders, and have the baseband hand the keys to the OS. This is how Motorola does it, and so far, the trouble of cracking Moto's encrypted bootloaders have gotten modders to move elsewhere."

Ok, crack the encryption key and I've solved the problem. This is exactly what George did.

"3: Push software down to the iPhones periodically to search for jailbreaks. If devices are JB-ed, all Apple IDs connected with them would be banned. MS does with the XBoxes, Valve does this with VAC, etc."

Ok, disable the push then. It'll be like Windows Genuine Authentication that somehow always gets bypassed by pirates.

"4: Have the baseband software and processor (IIRC, the radio uses a separate processor than the main OS), act as a TPM. If the running OS isn't signed, put the device in DFU mode until a valid copy of the IPSW is put on."

Again, figure out the key and sign your own baked OS. Furthermore, ALL cell phones are required to at least make emergency calls. You preventing a device from doing that because it runs unauthorized software will find you in a jail cell for breaking a Federal statute.

"5: Ask cellular carriers to cough up IP records of anyone who bought programs through Cydia, cross reference the IMEIs, and when it comes for an iOS update, blacklist all IMEIs gathered which are suspected during the SHSH negotation process." (sic)

And have the full force of the US Government and/or State governments on your ass for violating privacy rights.

"6: Have a firmware eFuse counter that only allows for flashing higher versions (assuming they are not betas)."

Ok, then all OS updates will appear as Betas, or iOS 5 will be iOS 6, and so forth.

"7: Separate the iPhones into different models, each having different hardware protection, and when rev B is put out, anyone caught using rev A exploits is banned from cellular networked via IMEI, and their Apple IDs are banned."

Yeah, this hasn't worked for Sony and their PSPs, I'm sure it'll work for for Apple though. Furthermore, you disable a phone from making phone calls, then you're going to find some government entity on your ass, especially if you ban the device from the network and it can't make emergency calls anymore. Now you're breaking a Federal law, again, to protect your IP.

"8: Get with cellular carriers and lease iPhones the way Ma Bell used to lease telephones. This + a EULA would mean that jailbreaking would be against the law because it wouldn't be the owner's device."

Yeah, not in AT&T's best interest. You see, if they own the phone, then they're liable if it doesn't work properly, especially in an emergency situation, or when it breaks, when it runs out of battery life, when its dirty, etc. That's a lot of risk pooling you're attempting, something insurance companies are good at, not telephone companies. Furthermore, the last time AT&T tried this, they were broken up for breaking anti-trust laws. I doubt they would want that again, especially after all the work they've done to be put Ma Bell back together, just for the sake of Apple, a company that is now selling to their largest competitor.

You see, you're arguments are so far fetched that no one would waste their time pointing out your flaws in both security l

Re:Hey Sony! Pack up your bags and leave

[mlts]

1: For most phones in the US, it is different than in other countries where one just swaps out a SIM (or R/UIM) card for another. For example, if Verizon killed service, the iPhone would end up a rather clunky PDA, because it is locked to their network, and Sprint is known (although may have changed as of recently) to refuse all service to devices unless sold by them. So, a loss of service will mean at least a new phone, perhaps a change in number.

2: Show me a cracked Motorola Android phone. No, the original Droid does not count. Find a Milestone, a Flipout, an Atrix, a Cliq, with a cracked bootloader that offers custom ROMs without the ROM "chef" having to use the kexec() hack. Yes, someone might crack the device, but for most ROM modders, it just isn't worth the time. This will only get worse over time, especially as HTC gets raked over the coals to start making their devices more crack-resistant.

3: This is one of those things that would be an arms race. ROM gets pushed out, it gets cracked so rooted/custom phones say it is a standard ROM when it isn't. However, the stakes of having a phone blacklisted from networks may result in people not bothering, especially if their Apple/Google/MS IDs get banned in the process. It is like Valve's Anti-Cheat -- just the threat of losing access to hundreds, if not thousands of dollars worth of stuff keeps people from doing this. So, yes, it can be bypassed, but with DMCA takedowns left and right, mass bans of devices and userIDs, it would be pushed to the fringes.

4: Figuring out the key is easier said than done. Apple's new baseband ROM in the iPhone 4 and 3GS has the best guys in the industry poking at the thing, and it has yet to be cracked. Yes, it will get cracked, but the goal is to have the phone withstand attack until at least 1-2 generations of devices have hit the market. At this point, it will be pointless.

5: You think the government would do anything in this political climate? Think again. Look at all the info Apple gets about iPhone users as they walk around. At the most, you might see a senator waving their finger.

6: Then Apple after a certain period of time tells the carriers to not provide service to devices reporting beta operating systems.

7: This is completely untested waters, and the court precedent would go to whom has the deepest pockets. Even banned IMEI phones can still dial 911. However anything more than that isn't going to be allowed. It would be trivial for Apple to ship iPhones with one type of protection, then without announcing it, change it. If FPGA/eFuse based, the hardware would remain the same, and of course, access to the JTAG flashing would be encrypted or blown out before it ever left the Foxconn factory.

8: EULAs. Software is technically not sold, but software makers are almost never held liable for its failure. Hardware makers might be sued if the hardware physically injures someone. However, having the hardware leased and turned off from remote if the EULA is violated is definitely a well supported court precedent. Someone would have to have the resources of Donald Trump to find a reason why a company cannot disable a device that is technically theirs.

These arguments I state are realistic and can easily happen. You think a regulatory commission would step in? Not going to happen in this political climate. Take the FCC. They are being rendered toothless by the new Congress and lobbyists. Essentially the only thing they really can do in an enforcement basis is chase after teenagers and their pirate radio stations, or intercept shipments of cellphone jammers.

Cellular carriers can drop anyone off their network at anytime and cite "security reasons". Luck++ in a court to find a sympathetic judge, especially when they use the argument of "this user was using a device potentially dangerous to the US's telecom infrastructure."

So, for the tl;dr crowd, Apple take a lot meaner stance jailbreaking even though technically it is legal. All it woul

And then Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

After you are done boycotting Sony, I am sure next in your line would be Apple. After all, most of your arguments apply to them as well.

Re:And then Apple?

[Superken7]

By that reasoning most companies should be boycotted (and maybe you're right, not discussing that)

I am no friend of Apple's controlling policies, but c'mon, apple's actions are nothing compared to what sony does.

Apple:
Shutdown apps in the appstore that I don't like, ban erotism, porn, remove android references, claim to have invented stuff that was already there.

Yes, thats kinda lame, but its hardly evil compared to:
Sony:
SHUTDOWN Liksang, SUE people that are hacking their aibo robots (while you can't even pirate anything!), SUE jailbreakers, put ROOTKITS in music CDs..

Not THAT is being evil. IMHO.

Re:And then Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't buy any of their crap either.

Re:And then Apple?

[Superken7]

I obviously meant "Now THAT is being evil" ;P

Re:And then Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

What about sending the brute squad to a a reporters house taking all his electronic equipment, because he got his hands on a unreleased product. Nice less evil company.

Re:And then Apple?

[RavenLrD20k]

Why wait? I can and do boycott multiple companies at the same time... I'm actually sorry to say that Acer has made it to that list as well. I like my quad core laptop and all, but when asking acer for parts to add a second HDD to it, I just get told that they don't offer replacement parts and expect users to buy a new complete laptop every time something breaks down, and in doing further research, it's near impossible to get them to honor their warranties. I wondered why the thing had such good specs for such a low price, even after working with the thing and doing blender renders on it, I'm still impressed with the price:performance ratio. I just know that when this thing dies, I'm gonna be hard pressed to get any kind of service repair on it.

Re:And then Apple?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

By that reasoning most companies should be boycotted (and maybe you're right, not discussing that)

I think his point was that if you're going to get your panties in a bunch, at least do it for the reason you stated and not because of the company involved. It's good advice, otherwise your credibility is suspect.

I am...

[Anonymous Coward]

blickmaniac

How did Sony know this?

[Anonymous Coward]

the attorney explained that the system in question was purchased at a GameStop near Hotz' residence... If they had a copy of a GameStop receipt tying that serial number to Hotz, the company would have included it with the rest of the evidence.

How did Sony gain access to GameStop or Hotz' credit card records?

Re:How did Sony know this?

[Hatta]

the attorney explained that the system in question was purchased at a GameStop near Hotz' residence... If they had a copy of a GameStop receipt tying that serial number to Hotz, the company would have included it with the rest of the evidence.

How did Sony gain access to GameStop or Hotz' credit card records?

Discovery.

Re: expensive for geohot

[Anonymous Coward]

as it would be expensive for geohot to appear in court for his defense.

I don't see why it would be expensive for George Hotz to appear in a Californian court for his defense. Could you explain?

There's travel costs - which I'm sure he can cover through all the donations by now. Remember that he's on vacation in South America right now, surely a much more expensive trip in terms of travel.

Then there's hotel costs - but given his many, many supporters, I'm sure he could find a place in California to crash. If not, he could find a motel or a hostel or whatever and it'd still be pretty cheap.

Then there's missing income from his job - wait.. what is his job? Does he have one?
Regardless, if his physical presence would be required for his job, he'd have problems with that if court sessions were in his home state/county/town just as well.

What else... legal counsel? Well okay, there is that. Perhaps his lawyer doesn't want to co-bunk with him. I suspect his lawyer could refer him to a colleague in California that would take on the case for the same fee, though.

Nah.. your last sentence is the more likely one. The courts in California are a bit more 'on the side of' media business, while also being more knowledgeable about it (similar to a bunch of patent cases being in that one Texas district). So of course the defense lawyer would rather have a different venue, while his opponent would fight to have it held -exactly- there.

Charging money isn't evil...

[Joce640k]

Why does charging money for something make a company "evil"?

Evil is when they sue you, install viruses on your PC without asking, make CDs that won't play on PCs, try to lock you in to their products at every turn (eg. memory sticks), use proprietary connectors everywhere, overcharge for replacement batteries, etc. It's all in a days work at SONY.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Demanding money for a free app so you can use a paid service by a third party is evil. Basically, MS isn't providing enough value to justify charging for it.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Blakey Rat]

Basically, MS isn't providing enough value to justify charging for it.

Then don't pay for it. That doesn't make it "evil."

I mean, we're comparing this to a company that *removed* an advertised feature from the console. Xbox 360 *added* the Netflix feature. (And was by a full year the first console to have it.) Completely apples and oranges.

If you want a cheap Netflix player, buy a Roku.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

Making you pay a monthly fee for a service that you won't use so that you can access a free app is evil. Not as evil, but evil nonetheless. Sort of like how the 360 is only compatible with Microsoft's hard drives - making you pay a 100 dollar premium for a hard drive that's worth around 30 bucks is evil.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[stealth_finger]

To be fair they're not charging for the netflix use. They are saying to use the app on the xbox you have to be a gold member. Fair enough if netflix is the only thing you want to use online it's as good as but still, if you did pay it you'd get the rest of gold membership benefits whether you want them or not. If you have relatively modern tv you should be able to hook up the pc or laptop or whatever to it for less than the price of a live sub.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[exomondo]

Demanding money for a free app so you can use a paid service by a third party is evil.

They aren't demanding money for a free app, they are charging for access to their network (which is quite clearly far more extensive than one single app).

Basically, MS isn't providing enough value to justify charging for it.

How do you figure? Sure PSN is free but that doesn't reduce the value of XBL. I like that PSN is free, but $5 a month for XBL isn't exactly breaking the bank.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Sure it does - evil doesn't have to be on a grand scale or anything, it just has to fit our individual idea of evil.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the charging money for something. It's segmenting the market and then engaging in price discrimination between those segments. The same reason why region locks are evil. There's no particular reason why anyone should have to also pay money to Microsoft to use a service that they pay Netflix to receive over bandwidth that they already paid for on hardware that they (presumably) own. What service, exactly, does Microsoft provide in that transaction to earn their keep?

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[sortius_nod]

Pretty much it. It would only be evil if they FORCED you to pay to play the console.

If you look through my previous posts, you can see I am by no means an MS lover, but I won't stand for this bullshit that somehow charging for a service is "evil".

Sure, you can get the service free on PS3 & PC, where's the problem there? Buy a PS3 or PC, MS is not locking you into paying for live unless you bought their product already. People were well aware live was paid for before the Xbox & Xbox360 came out, so either you're just a stupid consumer or you just want to hang it on MS.

Anyway, back on topic. Sony is evil.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[LingNoi]

It's not evil it's just a shitty business decision. Evil is installing rootkits on your computer, removing features from the console and suing your customers. Also, no one is making you pay for anything! Simply don't buy an xbox is you don't like the prices.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[cheekyjohnson]

Then don't pay for it. That doesn't make it "evil."

Then don't use Sony. Then don't mod a console made by Sony. This same thing could be applied to anything. Even if it doesn't make them 'evil' (whatever that means), it sure does make their console less appealing.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, I know it's fashionable to hate Sony on slashdot, but this is not a reason to mod up astroturfing...

use proprietary connectors everywhere

If I remember correctly, PS3 has standard USB connectors, when 360 has proprietary modified USB (different voltage and different physical connector).

(eg. memory sticks)

If I remember correctly, early PS3 had both SD and memory stick built-in when 360 had proprietary memory cards. Arguably they got removed, like 2 of of the original 4 USB ports, but that was cost reduction and both SD and MS got removed at the same time.

try to lock you in to their products at every turn

If I remember correctly, PSP was the first Sony device to ever support MP3 natively, back in a time where WMA was the only supported format on the Microsoft side. There's a famous Krazy Ken interview.

overcharge for replacement batteries

Let me google this for you.... Oh yes you can get plenty of replacement batteries, from Sony (more expensive) or random 3rd parties (less expensive) - the decision is yours. I wonder if replacing batteries on iPhone/iPad/i* or Zune is so easy.

install viruses on your PC without asking, makte CDs that won't play on PCs

Ok Sony Music *is* really evil... But for their defense, they're the only divison, with Sony Pictures, controlled by the western side of Sony, not Japan, and having american "values". The rest of Sony made sure rootkits were prohibited forever see section 4.2.1 so that music and movies guys would be burnt at the stake if they ever did this again.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[X0563511]

Specifically, when you pay for a gold membership you are paying for the xbox network access and content distribution network. Sure, some of that is used with or without an account - the cost you pay subsidies those basic features being "free" for the non-subscribers.

Sure, it seems a bit ridiculous to charge for a device to access the internet (providing they don't provide said internet - which they don't) but they DO charge you to use their gateways etc. Entirely within their right, no matter how stupid you may think it is.

Now, to the GP (not you, stealth_finger - you seem to get it) and others:

Also, $60/year is... HOLY FUCK $5 PER MONTH!?

That's a coffee or a lunch at your local fast food provider. Really. Obtain some perspective.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[N1AK]

In which case your both right, based on your own definitions, which is a pretty nonsensical idea. If you're communicating with other people, then you can only do it effectively by using the widely socially agreed definition. If you want to make up your own meanings, why not make up your own words as well, that way we'll know what your saying doesn't make any sense to anyone but you.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that they aren't forcing me at gunpoint to buy something doesn't make it any less evil. I could just not buy an Xbox, but if Microsoft wasn't evil, I could buy an Xbox and a third-party hard drive priced at what a 250 gigabyte hard drive is worth.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

I like that PSN is free, but $5 a month for XBL isn't exactly breaking the bank.

So? That's 5 dollars a month that I wouldn't have to pay if Microsoft wasn't demanding money for a free app.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

If charging money for something usually included in the purchase was "evil", how come so many people still buy Apple products?

Hey, my EEEPC came with a carrying pouch, but Smart Cover costs $39!

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why does charging money for something make a company "evil"?"

OK, go on ...

"use proprietary connectors everywhere"

Ah. Well, the PS3 allows the user to replace the HDD with a standard laptop drive. Good luck not paying M$ a ton of cash for their proprietary, overpriced hard drive attachment. The PS3 also allows any USB memory card reader, hard drive, keyboard or mouse to be used (maybe the 360 does too, I don't know, but my point is that you can't level the "proprietary connector" argument at the PS3 - which is what this thread is discussing, I believe).

"overcharge for replacement batteries"

Ah. So "charging for something does not make a company evil" ... unless it's SONY doing the charging?

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, $60/year is... HOLY FUCK $5 PER MONTH!?

That's a coffee or a lunch at your local fast food provider. Really. Obtain some perspective.

You have a point but then again that is $60 you could use on something more important.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[tophermeyer]

...evil...

You keep using this word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

The fact that they aren't forcing me at gunpoint to buy something doesn't make it any less evil.

Yes it does. Yes it most certainly does.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[tophermeyer]

...a free app.

But it's not a free app. That app costs money for MS and Sony to develop for the platform, maintain, and distribute. Sony delivers it for "free" by hiding that cost elsewhere in their business model. MS is more overt that, surprise, their online service costs money.

At least with Microsoft you have the option of not buying the service. Sony's PSN costs are included in their console/game sales. Everyone has to pay for it whether they use it or not.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[queBurro]

like donating it to Geohot's defence

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

You keep using this word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
You think wrong.

Yes it does. Yes it most certainly does.
No it doesn't.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

so either you're just a stupid consumer

Read: blaming the victim

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[tophermeyer]

You keep using this word. I don't think it means what you think it means. You think wrong.

Nuh-uh!

Seriously, if your definition of evil includes "asking me to pay for something that I think I shouldn't have to" then you need to recalibrate your definition of evil. Would you call a car salesman evil for not throwing in streaming Netflix service on a car? Why don't you consider Netflix to be evil for asking to pay for the service at all? It's not like they made the content after all, they just distribute it. What about your ISP. They all sound pretty evil to me.

Maintaining the XBox live service costs money. Developing, supporting, and distributing the Netflix app over XBox live also costs money. Thus MS charges for access to the service via the XBox live Gold subscription. Sony (in a great bit of misdirection) advertises the PSN as "free". The service is of course not free, but it's costs are spread around in console, software, and content sales.

At least MS gives you the option not to pay for the Gold subscription. Because Sony covers their PSN costs through console and game sales, every PS3 owner pays that costs regardless of whether they use it. Which one of those options sounds more evil?

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Fulcrum of Evil]

You know, I haven't seen much in the way of agreement on what constitutes evil, so I'll keep my definition, TYVM

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget the laptops that refuse to use non Sony brand Batteries, so when Sony decides to stop making batteries, the user is screwed, or they unlock it with a 3rd party firmware fix (which might necessitate another police raid).

Now I can only half understand them being nervous about 3rd party batteries after the ones that caught fire, but maybe they should educate on "cheap knock offs might not be made right and might catch fire, so Buyer Beware."?

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[DeVilla]

...but I won't stand for this bullshit that somehow charging for a service is "evil".

What service do MS provide in this case? Netflix provides, the content. The ISP provides the bandwidth. MS provides ...? The system? That was paid for.

Mark third party app 'Gold'.
???
Profit!

Guess the Underwear Gnomes where right.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you call a car salesman evil for not throwing in streaming Netflix service on a car?

No, but I'd call him evil if he wanted me to pay him a monthly fee to use my CD player.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[tophermeyer]

No, but I'd call him evil if he wanted me to pay him a monthly fee to use my CD player.

Ah! But that's not the same thing. You don't need an Xbox live gold subscription to play Netflix DVD's. You only need it to use the Netflix instant streaming application.

The DVD player still works just fine.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah! But that's not the same thing.

Of course not. It's an analogy. My car salesman plays as much of a role in me listening to CDs in my car as Microsoft plays a role in me streaming Netflix on my Xbox.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[grumbel]

Why does charging money for something make a company "evil"?

The problem isn't that they are charging, but that they are charging while giving you nothing in return (and no, giving you a service that you neither need nor want doesn't count). Just because they have full control over your Xbox360 doesn't make it ok for them to install extra virtual toll booth at every turn.

try to lock you in to their products at every turn (eg. memory sticks)

PS3 supports standard USB/Blutooth webcam, headset, controller, HDD, SD, CF, etc., use whatever third party stuff you like, it will work
Xbox360: proprietary HDD, proprietary Wireless, proprietary memorycards, proprietary pseudo-USB controller, blocking of third party memory cards via firmware update, blocking third party controller via lock-out chip, disallowing free DLC and a whole bunch of other crap (red-rings, scratched DVDs, etc.). Even on the PC the Xbox360 is causing trouble, thanks to their DirectInput->XInput switch with no good up- or downward compatibility, which rendered quite a few third party controllers useless (homebrew workaround exists). The Xbox360 is essentially the most locked-in console to have ever existed.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[grumbel]

Also, $60/year is... HOLY FUCK $5 PER MONTH!?

Thats $300 or more spread over the lifetime of the console, essentially doubling the consoles price.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[tophermeyer]

My car salesman plays as much of a role in me listening to CDs in my car as Microsoft plays a role in me streaming Netflix on my Xbox.

Not true. Microsoft has an ongoing commitment to spend money developing and patching that Netflix app.

And don't sell yourself short. Your analogy actually perfectly proved my point!. If you've got the physical media to place in the player then there's no need for an intermediary like Microsoft/Car salesman. If want to to stream media from one service provider over another service providers network, then you will probably have to pay both parties...

...or not use the service. That's always an option too.

Re:Charging money isn't evil...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true. Microsoft has an ongoing commitment to spend money developing and patching that Netflix app.

Then they're inserting themselves as an arbitrary middle-man for the sake of charging a monthly fee. Still evil. I don't have to pay Microsoft to stream Netflix over Windows, this is no different. I'm streaming the content from Netflix, not from Microsoft.

If want to to stream media from one service provider over another service providers network, then you will probably have to pay both parties...

This is true - I have to pay Netflix and I have to pay my ISP. Those are the only parties involved in the streaming of Netflix, unless you count the owners of the content.

TI-84 Plus could be used to jailbreak

[Myria]

Because the TI-84 Plus graphing calculator had a USB port, and is user-programmable, people used it to do the USB-based original jailbreak.

Re:TI-84 Plus could be used to jailbreak

[Anonymous Coward]

wait calculators come with USB ports now? I've been out of college too long.

Taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

With this whole SCEA, anyone think it backfires on Sony since they don't pay federal taxes for this subsidiary yet assume US protection?

FB group to ban Sony

[Rick Bentley]

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ban-Sony-until-they-respect-Freedom/181461915231273

Re:FB group to ban Sony

[Legion303]

Ban != boycott, and facebook sucks.

MOD Parent UP

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never signed up for a /. account, and never have had anything to say. But the Parent post is absoluly correct!

Boycott Sonny!

[Locke2005]

And don't buy and of Cher's recordings either!

An important precedent hangs in the balance

[FliesLikeABrick]

While I don't care about modding systems for the purpose of playing pirated games (I own a PS3 and Wii and am fine with buying games), I think this is an important case for hobbyists/hackers and anyone who thinks they should have the right to hack on their own hardware - which as far as I'm aware is what Sony is trying to set a precedent against.

I want to be able to mod my PS3 or anything else I own for whatever reason I want - whether that's to put Linux on it or do something more unique with it as part of a research project or just for fun. The fact that this can be used for copyright infringement/piracy is secondary. It is the act of pirating the material that should be illegal and enforced, not any of the technological means that allow it to happen. (similar examples: outlawing VCRs instead of the sale/exchange of copyrighted material, outlawing torrent programs instead of the action of sharing copyrighted material, outlawing guns instead of crimes committed with guns, outlawing cars instead of hitting people with cars, etc etc.)

As such, I donated a nontrivial amount to Geohot's "give me donations to help my legal defense" plea a month or two ago. I want the ability to do whatever I damn well please with the hardware that I've purchased.

Aside: I think it's amusing that Sony requested Geohot's paypal transaction records to try and help prove parts of their case. I wonder if they'll be discriminating between "people who paid Geohot for modding-related things" and "people who donated for his defense." Clearly this should be easy based on the amounts there, but I almost wish I knew how much he was accepting for modding jobs before I donated, so that I could have donated that amount N times to approximate the amount I ended up donating, just with the hope that Sony would confuse defense donations for payment for modding jobs/chips/whatever and cock up their case against him even more.

Re:An important precedent hangs in the balance

[FliesLikeABrick]

I should add that this kind of cause is why I intend to continue to make regular donations to the EFF as well. These are important issues for the tinkerers, geeks, researchers, developers and students amongst us.

Re:An important precedent hangs in the balance

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

The problem is, is what GeoHot decided to do.

If he leaked the metldr keys discreetly, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

This isn't about tinkering with your equipment, this is about leaking bootloader keys. AFAIK, the Wii and Xbox 360's encryption keys are still safe and sound. The second they get leaked, you better bet your ass that Microsoft and Nintendo would come down hard.

Re:An important precedent hangs in the balance

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if they'll be discriminating between "people who paid Geohot for modding-related things" and "people who donated for his defense."

You're a bit of a simpleton, arent you. It's very easy to calculate when the donations started, it started when things got legal.

Re:An important precedent hangs in the balance

[master_p]

want to be able to mod my PS3 or anything else I own for whatever reason I want - whether that's to put Linux on it or do something more unique with it as part of a research project or just for fun. The fact that this can be used for copyright infringement/piracy is secondary.

It's not secondary at all. Electronic products are different from non-electronic products. A whole business may depend on cryptography, as is the case with video games. I think the middle ground is the most reasonable solution: you can do anything you want with the PS3, except decrypting the keys that allow the use of pirated games, because if you do so, then you demolish the business model of Sony. This means that you can physically remove the hardware components, use them as you see fit, use the PS3 as a door stopper, etc. But if you want to load your own software on it, and you have to bypass the security, then you are not allowed to do that.

Re:An important precedent hangs in the balance

[Geminii]

So what would be the best way to leak them anonymously yet to everywhere at once? Hack the TV network during the Super Bowl and add a footer "newsbar" scroll of the keys onscreen? Label them as "Wii/Xbox360 keys" and then ROT13 the whole thing so it's not immediately obvious what they are? Anonymously submit the keystring as a "cryptic puzzle" to Reddit or somewhere? Spam it?

Re:An important precedent hangs in the balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you seriously saying you don't think it's possible to do stuff anonymously? Basically he could have done everything exactly the same, except not brag and try to get so much fame out of it, and he would be completely safe from this lawsuit.

Re:An important precedent hangs in the balance

[Anonymous Coward]

What difference does it matter, it's been patched, all new games require FW 3.60. Game bug fixes also add minimum OS requirements, and Sony's latest EULA says you let them do what they like with your PS3, including monitoring what you use it for. Even Netflix now requires you to log into the PSN before it will allow you to watch, even though there is zero connection between PSN and Netflix accounts.

Subsidiaries and Associated Companies

[GumphMaster]

It is truly heartening that the standard large company practice of spinning off portions of the business to minimise taxation, isolate risk, provide a favourable legal environment, provide deniability, and reduce legal liability are precisely the things causing SCEA grief.

Where is GeoHotz now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasn't there an article about GeoHotz leaving the country? Was that true?

Re:Where is GeoHotz now?

[mcvos]

He went on a planned vacation to Brazil. Sony's lawyers tried to spin that as fleeing the country.

Re:Boycott Sony! - already done.

[Kosi]

Sony is on my personal blacklist since the rootkit affair.

Editorial style

[ashidosan]

I submitted this same story 4 hours before this submission, but mine was missing the breathless editorializing. Good to know for next time.

My mistake

[man_the_king]

It seems the very fact that one of the parties in this case is Sony is enough to proclaim the other party "virtuous". How very objective.

I came here hoping to discuss something intelligently and find that instead of Slashdot, we now have XBox central - full of Sony-haters.

My mistake.