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US Open Government Sites To Close

SEWilco writes "US government sites which promote open government are going to shut down soon due to not enough funding being directed at them."

68 of 385 comments (clear)

  1. But it's a good idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Can we donate? I'm serious.

    1. Re:But it's a good idea... by oldmeddler · · Score: 5, Funny

      Sure thing. PM me and I'll send you my PayPal info and make sure the money gets to the right place.

    2. Re:But it's a good idea... by TheABomb · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      MSIE: The world's most standards-complaint web browser.
    3. Re:But it's a good idea... by Seumas · · Score: 2

      I'm pretty sure these are some of the same sites we donated $18m and $40m for, to pay for "drupal installations". And by "donate", I mean "paid taxes for". And have you seen a lot of these sites? Broken links. Meaningless data. Often slow updates. These were empty gestures and big cash handouts.

    4. Re:But it's a good idea... by Seumas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's because they only usually think taxes are too low for *other* people.

    5. Re:But it's a good idea... by TheABomb · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, so far in FY 2011, they've gotten $530,856.55.

      And the old joke is true: they all gave 55 cents.

      --
      MSIE: The world's most standards-complaint web browser.
    6. Re:But it's a good idea... by nomadic · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's because they only usually think taxes are too low for *other* people.

      Don't know about that, the limousine liberals who right-wingers and slashdotters like to excoriate frequently are advocating for tax increases for their own tax bracket.

    7. Re:But it's a good idea... by Dyinobal · · Score: 3, Informative

      You already donate it's called taxes.

    8. Re:But it's a good idea... by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would happily pay my income adjusted contribution if it meant I wouldn't have to listen to people bitch about it anymore and stop cutting important social programs like nutrition assistance.

    9. Re:But it's a good idea... by publiclurker · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, son, when you get out of your mommies basement you will soon discover that most of those people are simply trying to get by, like the family one block over from us who's dad lost his job and mom is trying to take care of a two year old while recovering from chemotherapy and a double mastectomy. then again, blaming the victim always makes the morally bankrupt like you feel better, as you think it absolves you of any need to be a contributing member of society.

    10. Re:But it's a good idea... by CyprusBlue113 · · Score: 2

      So you'd rather them be forced to resort to theft, and other crimes? That seems like such a better solution. Worked great for Napoleon.

      --
      a handful of selfish greedy people are no match for millions of selfish, greedy people -u4ya
    11. Re:But it's a good idea... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      By "cutting" you mean "not increasing". What I'd like is a top to bottom review of ALL government spending and ALL programs having to justify themselves, and with more than anecdotal evidence of some grandma eating dog food. And in case you're wondering, I have a hard time wanting to justify some of the very programs you're probably supportive of. How about this, Nutrition Assistance based on not being "fat". I see the "Free food" kids at school who are fat. And I don't mean "chubby", I mean barely able to walk, waddle like penguins ... fat.

      And you're gonna tell me that they are poor (sure) and are fat because lack of some education at home where the parents are too stupid to not eat at McDonalds every day ... or something. Great, how about you drag mom AND dad down to the local "re-education" center and get them educated BEFORE they can participate in "free and reduced" food (breakfast AND lunch now).

      Never mind that now that the parents only have to find one fat filled meal instead of three, they can now drink an extra sixpack of bud or fifth of vodka.

      Look, I don't mind helping people who need it. But I'm sick of people who don't need it, milking the system so they can drink (or smoke dope, or crank, or pop Oxycontin). You know, I've had to tighten my belt over the years because I'm not making any more, and the government it taking more, and things just cost more. How about ... for a change ... government do the same thing?

      So, lets cut (as in not increase) all government spending for a while. No new programs unless you're willing to cut two old ones. Let us review each program's effectiveness and see if we can't be more productive with the tax payers hard earned money. I know, novel idea for government to justify its existence, we should try it as the other option isn't working any longer.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    12. Re:But it's a good idea... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

      Bingo.

      Cash grab, like many other "programs" and if you "cut" them, they will roll out some poor soul who was "helped" by the program, as if anecdotal evidence is proof that the program is needed.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    13. Re:But it's a good idea... by TheLink · · Score: 3, Informative

      OK here's a deal, I'll give you 144 USD (12 usd/month as per your link) one year after you fund and operate a similar site doing the same thing:

      1) One that produces reports like this:
      http://www.usaspending.gov/search?query=&searchtype=&formFields=eyJOYXRpb25hbEludGVyZXN0QWN0aW9uIjpbIkd1bGYgT2lsIFNwaWxsIDA0MTAiXX0=
      (and the other reports the original site provides).

      FYI: that page is about spending related to the recent Gulf Oil Spill.

      2) The data+reports have to be reasonably accurate and updated in a timely manner (from the various entities required, some potentially uncooperative or even hostile).

      3) the site has to cope with the load when linked to by Slashdot or mainstream media. And have similar performance to the original site.

      4) the site should be about as hard to hack/deface as a similar gov site (e.g. probably possible, but not too easy).

      For comparison here's the Wikimedia annual report:
      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/AR_web_all-spreads_24mar11_72_FINAL.pdf

      Summary their expenses are about USD10 million. 3.5 million in salaries/wages.

      While that's for multiple wikimedia sites do remember that much wikipedia content is created by volunteers for free.

      --
    14. Re:But it's a good idea... by nadaou · · Score: 3, Insightful

      slander stated as fact with unfounded assertions for a rather uncreative run of the mill troll. shame on the fools who modded you up -- please mod up new and interesting trolls for us to enjoy, not the old tired ones; nostalgia not withstanding.

      and just in case you were actually serious, we also had less countries with the bomb in '79. (hey, at least my metric is verifiable) That must be the DoEd's fault too according to your logic? A rather lot has changed since then, and you can really ignore all the other changes in society and tie the causation to the management of this afterthought of a gov't dept? really?

      Sagan is dead. Long live Sagan.
      http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html

      --
      ~.~
      I'm a peripheral visionary.
    15. Re:But it's a good idea... by pnutjam · · Score: 2

      Parents who want to drink, smoke, or shoot-up the money their kids need for food will do so whether the kids get free food or not. I've seen it, but by all means, show these kids that the world is a callous place and they should look only at cost and benefit (for themselves). Most crime has excellent cost benefit ratios. There is also a substantial public interest in people working within the system. Starving people or people who never have a hope of getting ahead do very dangerous things, and they don't look to the future (or avoid pregnancies).

      From a budget perspective, these programs appear to account for 14% of the budget, money well spent IMHO. There are some child health care costs rolled up in the 21% on that page for medicaid, but 25% of the 21% is spent in the last year of life. So the spending on older Americans who may or may not need a social program dwarfs the spending on children.

      Children are a national treasure.

    16. Re:But it's a good idea... by jdgeorge · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We're now spending 3 times as much on education, adjusted, as 25 years ago, yet the results are no better. Perhaps we should put more effort into insisting on quality outputs rather than increasing inputs -- tossing more money -- into the edu operation...

      Who is "we"? Do you mean federal, state, local government? Are you talking about pre-college education, or college/university/vocational education?

      Without any of that information, I don't understand your assertion or proposoal at all.

    17. Re:But it's a good idea... by ashidosan · · Score: 2

      From your views, you seem to be libertarian. But...forced sterilization? Yes, that seems like a reasonable and well-thought-out solution, and not totalitarian at all.

      Back in the day, shame and pride kept people from taking government assistance unless they absolutely needed it.

      Hahaha, what day was this? I grew up on government assistance, and saw plenty of families abusing the system. Freeloading isn't some new thing that the damn kids today invented.

    18. Re:But it's a good idea... by anyGould · · Score: 2

      stop cutting important social programs like nutrition assistance

      i guess that means free/reduced school lunches, WIC, food stamps, etc. yeah by all means we must continue to guarantee peoples right to have a bunch of kids they can't afford. that's real great for society and helps instill realism and personal responsibility, yeah right.

      My issue with all of those programs is that they're treating small symptoms and ignoring the root problem - minimum wage doesn't pay enough to live on. Giving kids a hot meal is a great idea, and makes for warm and fuzzy photo-ops. However, I'd argue that money would be better spent helping the kid's parents make enough money to pay for their own kid's lunch. Yeah, it doesn't lend itself to oversized cheques and the like, but it's a better use of public funds.

      While the stereotype is "poor people sitting on their fat asses leeching from the public purse", my experience has been that most of them do so because they can't get a job that pays as well as the government support. And since benefits get clawed back at 1:1 or worse, that removes any incentive to get into the workforce - why work and get paid *less* than if you stay home?

      (Yes, yes, there are lazy sacks that do nothing as well. File under "exception that proves the rule" - there are lazy rich people too.)

    19. Re:But it's a good idea... by anyGould · · Score: 2

      But of all departments of our government, Department of Education should flat out be available for donations.

      Just stop by your local school - they're *always* fundraising for something or other. You can tell how well-off your neighborhood is by what they're fundraising *for*. The rich schools are getting new scoreboards. The average schools are getting new computers for the lab, or maybe replacing some worn out equipment. The poor schools will be thrilled if you show up with a few boxes of copier paper.

  2. Bitter Irony by SilverHatHacker · · Score: 4, Interesting
    From the article:

    We need at least another $4 million just to keep USASpending.gov operating this year.

    $4mil to keep a website going for one year? Think if I called them up and offered to do it for 3 they'd take it?

    --
    Funny may not give karma, but +5 Informative never made anyone snort coffee out their nose.
    1. Re:Bitter Irony by MoonBuggy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      $4 million? A pittance! Apparently a paid registration system costs ten times that.

      Servers and hosting cost a few thousand to a few tens of thousands per year, full time developers and admins cost a less than $100k per year. All I can say is that whoever managed to walk off with the rest of the cash has got it made.

    2. Re:Bitter Irony by SilverHatHacker · · Score: 5, Informative

      An investment firm is hiring mathematicians. After the first round of interviews, three hopeful recent graduates - a pure mathematician, an applied mathematician, and a graduate in mathematical finance - are asked what starting salary they are expecting. The pure mathematician: "Would $30,000 be too much?" The applied mathematician: "I think $60,000 would be OK." The math finance person: "What about $300,000?" The personnel officer is flabberghasted: "Do you know that we have a graduate in pure mathematics who is willing to do the same work for a tenth of what you are demanding!?" "Well, I thought of $135,000 for me, $135,000 for you - and $30,000 for the pure mathematician who will do the work."

      Same principle applies here, I suppose.

      --
      Funny may not give karma, but +5 Informative never made anyone snort coffee out their nose.
    3. Re:Bitter Irony by icebraining · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Data.gov probably uses more money gathering and curating the tons of data they offer than with hosting.

    4. Re:Bitter Irony by elfprince13 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ....which is what he was linking to.

    5. Re:Bitter Irony by Sir_Sri · · Score: 5, Insightful

      4 million dollars would pay 30-40 people. That's not a whole lot, considering all of the data that has to be collected, checked, massaged into the right format, made compliant with accessibility rules, press dealings, server support, IT support for staff, and so on. I'm not an american so I'm not all that familiar with how funding is allocated in detail, but the site seems to spend a lot of time on awards, and sub award reporting. Presumably 'awards' could be easily extracted from regular budget documents but sub awards can't? There's seems to be a lot of time devoted to analysis of the data as well (which could drive costs up a lot if you have a few PhD's in stats or econ doing the analysis), in addition to building the flash visualization stuff.

      On top of all of the sort of obvious stuff I'm sure there's a lot of legal there too. You can't always just go and blab what contractors you're giving money to, or if you can you need to verify the information you're going to say about the company. There can be a big difference between a deal with a company that is myurl.net and myurl.com, and you don't want to say they got 10 million dollars when they got 1, or 100.

      As with all any large outfit, the more money you spend accounting for the money you're spending, the less is available for the actually things you're trying to do. It becomes a balance between the legitimate need to know where money is going, and the equally legitimate need to not waste 50 cents on every dollar documenting where you spent the other 50 cents. It seems like most everything on this website is available elsewhere, not necessarily easily. Whether or not a few millions of dollars in data aggregation on top of billions in accounting for trillions in spending is providing good value, especially when it's not my money, is beyond me.

    6. Re:Bitter Irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From the article:

      We need at least another $4 million just to keep USASpending.gov operating this year.

      $4mil to keep a website going for one year? Think if I called them up and offered to do it for 3 they'd take it?

      Depends. Are you going to do all the data collection, tabulations, etc? That $4-million figure wasn't just to run some Apache server stuff in the corner. It's the entire program that's being cut. It's no real great loss since traffic to these servers was negligible anyway. In the long run, it's actually cheaper to respond to FOIA requests than the maintain the full-disclosure types of websites.

      Keep in mind these were the half-assed answers to political campaign promises about open govt. They were never intended to fully funded or maintained.

    7. Re:Bitter Irony by Seumas · · Score: 3

      When they first rolled out the ridiculously expensive series of drupal sites (of which recovery.gov was one and so was the federal IT spending site), they claimed they needed something like $10m per year just to run it. (JUST recovery.gov, I believe).

      I guess they had to pay all those expensive Drupal licensing fees, huh?

    8. Re:Bitter Irony by turkeyfish · · Score: 2

      Given all the regulations regarding government procurement your figure of 20K for hundreds of thousands of offices that must communicate the information for release is remarkably low. Likewise you only have 1 person handling content. That would be like asking someone to drink from a firehose. I would imagine a staff of about 20 would cover it for coordinating data input from so many agencies and inputs around the country.

      It is always remarkable how people think they can expect a major project on a shoestring and then complain when it fails. Nonetheless, I like your basic premise. Democrats could gain a lot by farming this work out to open-government advocates, who would be willing to do it on a shoestring just to see it happen.

    9. Re:Bitter Irony by cgenman · · Score: 2

      And constantly updating it? Data doesn't feed itself.

  3. Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Ironic. Shut down the websites that watchdog government spending due to lack of funding. I'm shocked.

  4. This Is Pointless by mlingojones · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There are three giant money-sucking programs that need drastic cuts if we want to do anything about the budget: Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, and Defense.

    The few million dollars these sites cost to run is a drop in the bucket compared to those three programs.

    1. Re:This Is Pointless by zeroduck · · Score: 2

      BTW, you do know that social security is self-funded, right?

      While thats true, they bought government bonds with the money we gave them, we used that money to fund all the things the government does, and now we're on the line to pay back the fund. That money has to come from somewhere.

    2. Re:This Is Pointless by dkleinsc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you put all of the FICA taxes and T-bills owned by the Social Security Administration towards what they're supposed to be going for, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, are doing collectively just fine right now, and will continue to be more-or-less just fine for decades.

      The problem is that instead the significant surpluses in FICA were used to cover up even-more-massive deficits in the general treasury. And where and when those deficits came isn't a mystery: In short, blame can be laid pretty squarely at the feet of Ronald Reagan (notice the huge inflection point between 1945 and 2010).

      Basically, Reagan claimed he could cut taxes without affecting revenue. The effect of trying this was that he effectively proved that this was utter nonsense. But everybody likes paying less in taxes, so people who pointed out that it was nonsense were effectively told "Shhhh! Don't give the game away".

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    3. Re:This Is Pointless by larry+bagina · · Score: 2

      Historically, yes, but it ran a deficit last year, it's running a deficit this year, and even if we hit full unemployment, it will start permanently running at a deficit after 2016.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    4. Re:This Is Pointless by shmlco · · Score: 2

      "Yes, because none of them are anything important, and can be cut on a whim, without any thought, because it won't cause any harm."

      Without any thought? No. But why, pray tell, must the US pay more for "defense" than the next six countries in the world, including China... combined?

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    5. Re:This Is Pointless by lennier · · Score: 4, Insightful

      three giant money-sucking programs that need drastic cuts if we want to do anything about the budget: Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, and Defense

      Mmm, because a disease-racked, starving underclass is the perfect foundation for a stable and prosperous democratic society. But if we at least fund the military, the desperatly hungry, plague-ridden rabble with no jobs and no future will at least be well-trained in modern urban combat and the overthrow of oppressive (or just annoying) regimes.

      Nothing about this bold social plan could ever possibly go wrong!

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    6. Re:This Is Pointless by causality · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Do we need to cut anything? Think hard about where money comes from - under the fractional reserve system, banks can multiply deposits by 10. Why shouldn't govt do the same?

      They are doing that. It's called inflation and it's the biggest hidden tax of them all. For those who consider this a top priority, it's also an incredibly regressive tax. That's because most wealthy people have their money tied up in appreciating assets that scale with inflation. Most everyone else has their money in bank accounts. It's hard to live within your means, slowly build wealth, and move up when the money you are saving is constantly devalued. It's one of many forces that help to limit upward mobility and ensure that those who work hard and are not currently wealthy are unlikely to become wealthy.

      The economic problem is not the central problem of mankind. The advance of knowledge and innovation is. How can we encourage the natural curiosity and sense of wonder that leads to creative solutions? The mentality of "Katie bar the door" is not conducive to invention.

      The problem with that is that when a nation starts going bankrupt, the majority population becomes so busy trying to do things like avoid starvation that there remains little time and energy to advance knowledge and invent new things.

      What govt should do is provide a basic income (as founding father Tom Paine proposed in 1795's "Agrarian Justice") and stimulate innovation through challenges (of course private businesses such as Google, Netflix etc. can hold challenges too).

      If it would work that would be nice. There are a few problems that quickly come to mind and there are likely more than that. One is that this would require a huge investment of trust in the government. Providing a realistic income to every last adult in the nation would require a government even larger and more powerful (legally and economically) than the one we have now. I look at the assholes in power and I see little more than incompetence and insatiable hunger for power. If we are going to put this much more trust in our politicians then we need better politicians.

      The other problem is that very large systems based on extremely centralized micromanagement of human behavior tend not to work out. The only reason corporations can pull that off is because they are dictatorships and each member is relatively easy to eliminate and replace. Then consider that the only challenges that would receive funding are those you can get large, bureaucratic committees staffed with politicians to agree with and support. Proposals involving a scientific discipline are exceedingly unlikely to be reviewed and approved by people who actually understand the science. Then you'd still have all the usual problems of cronyism in which the politicians' buddies and supporters have an easier time getting a challenge approved.

      In conclusion, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter, Alexander Hamilton held that debt is a blessing, Lincoln printed over $400 million greenbacks, and the Panic of 1837 followed Jackson's paying off the national debt.

      Reagan proved that most corporations who are given generous tax breaks would rather give that money to their shareholders than the rank-and-file employees actually performing the work. Hamilton was a supporter of centralized banks and fiat currency and debt is an integral and unavoidable component of that arrangement. Lincoln's greenbacks were interest-free currency because Lincoln was wise enough to foresee the inevitable collapse of a system in which money has interest attached at the moment it is created, namely because there is never enough money in circulation to pay back the debt.

      The Panice of 1837 wasn't caused by Jackson paying off the national debt. The Panic was caused by drastic inflation that happened over a length of time that was followed by sudden intense defla

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    7. Re:This Is Pointless by AmberBlackCat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are three giant money-sucking programs that need drastic cuts if we want to do anything about the budget: Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, and Defense. The few million dollars these sites cost to run is a drop in the bucket compared to those three programs.

      At least Medicare and Social Security are doing something for American citizens.

    8. Re:This Is Pointless by riverat1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually federal spending as a percentage of the GDP is not significantly different now than it has been historically. The tax burden has shifted quite a bit though. Corporations used to account for about 30% of federal income tax receipts and the wealthy used use to have a top marginal rate well over 50%. Now the burden has shifted toward the middle class. After all, Bill Clinton balanced the budget and had a surplus when he left office and that was only with an extra 4 or 5% tax on high income earners. But then we had a major commitment of our military without raising taxes to help pay for it as we have in past wars. 3/4's of the federal debt was accumulated under Republican's because all they want to do is cut taxes but they're afraid to cut the spending by a commensurate amount because they know they'd be out on their asses at the next election if they did. Cheney said "Deficits don't matter." but what the Republican's really mean is they only matter when there's a Democratic president so they can make political hay out of them.

    9. Re:This Is Pointless by sarhjinian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nothing about this bold social plan could ever possibly go wrong!

      Well, America could implement, say, the kind of health care plan that any other western nation has and probably cut Medicare expenses (and overall health spending, public and private) and still come out ahead, or at least be able to fund social security in a sustainable fashion. But of course, you can't have a single-payer system that comprehensively covers all your citizens. Oh, no. That's socialism, and we can't have that! It's wrong for the government to employ a bunch of doctors and nurses and have themgo around and heal people!

      You can, mind you, have the government employ a huge, well-armed and trained military force to kill people. That's perfectly ok.

      --
      --srj/mmv
    10. Re:This Is Pointless by sarhjinian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The rest of the western world has more government-provided services, generally has less government intrusion and, interestingly, spends less doing so. All of this is because they don't have a pathological fear of government that forces everything to be done below-board and half-assed.

      To put it succinctly, America has the government is citizens deserve.

      --
      --srj/mmv
    11. Re:This Is Pointless by StopKoolaidPoliticsT · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you put all of the FICA taxes and T-bills owned by the Social Security Administration towards what they're supposed to be going for, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, are doing collectively just fine right now, and will continue to be more-or-less just fine for decades.

      In 1967, a Democratic Congress (247-187 House, 64-36 Senate) passed legislation (an amendment to the Social Security Act) that was signed by Democratic President Lyndon Johnson, which declared that any government program running a surplus would transfer that surplus to the general fund with a promise that the general fund would repay the program in years that the program was running a deficit.

      Those brand new Great Society entitlement programs had vastly exceeded their projections within two years and combined with the escalation in Vietnam meant that the US was going to be racking up huge deficits and the people in power wanted to paper over their mistakes so they could get re-elected (by not calling them mistakes and screwing over future generations, whom wouldn't be able to retaliate against some either already retired or dead politician in the future). In 1971, entitlement spending passed military spending, despite being in the middle of a war, and has vastly outgrown military spending ever since.

      But by all means, blame Reagan and only Reagan even though as far back as the early 60s, he was warning us about the future insolvency of the entitlement system.

      --
      Stop Koolaid Politics
    12. Re:This Is Pointless by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, we should eliminate the cap on Social Security taxes that are currently at about $100K. People who make over $100K a year have more to spare than people making less - the cap is exactly backwards to sanity. Once the cap is gone, there'll be plenty of money for everyone to ensure nobody starves to death when we stop working at 65. Keep in mind that lots of us used to starve to death before SS. Lots of us used to starve to death.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    13. Re:This Is Pointless by Nursie · · Score: 2

      So you'd be happy leaving old people that hadn't figured this out to starve and rot in the streets?

      Because it turns out that a lot of people are stupid, and a lot of people don't prepare. Or they lose it all defending a frivolous lawsuit, of get screwed over by a spouse in a divorce, or see repeated periodic market crashes when their investments mature, or... a million and one other things that leave them needing help.

      I do not fear libertarianism. I revile it as the sick and selfish philosophy it truly is.

    14. Re:This Is Pointless by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2

      Social Security isn't being robbed. The money the Federal government borrows from SS is repaid, plus about 50% extra, because it's immediately invested in Federal bonds. That's how the Federal government borrows money. SS is invested in the lowest risk investment possible.

      It's no ponzi scheme. A ponzi scheme doesn't return any gain on the investment. It only uses new money to pay out some return to earlier investments. Social Security is a legitimate investment.

      Of course the taxpayers pay it back. The money borrowed is invested in the US economy, both directly and in managing it properly. The problem is that too much is invested in bad projects, like the killing, destruction and plain waste that is the "Defense" Department and the "intelligence" agencies. And the constant cutback in tax collection from those who benefit most from the public investments: corporations and the rich people who own them.

      The scam is quite different from the one you say it is. The scam you describe is the product of the very same corporations, rich people, and "Conservative" politicians who are getting fat from the real scam.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    15. Re:This Is Pointless by Nursie · · Score: 3, Informative

      More libertarian lies and fantasies.

      Yes, you got where you are all by yourself, with no contribution from the society around you, you big strong independent libertarian you. You'd have done just as well living in a cave on your own, I bet. To address your points -

      Voluntary giving suffers from resources being squandered by many charities, it also suffers from funds only going to those whom are either currently in the spotlight or whom are considered moral/worthy by others, not necessarily those in most need. Government is not perfect by a long way, especially when it comes to efficiency, but it is generally consistent and tries to be blind.

      And you genuinely think that giving people a reasonable safety net, providing for health and basic food, makes them grow up lazy and dependant? That if we just whipped that out from under those most in need they'd suddenly pull themselves up by their bootstraps?

      And someone who suffers due to their own bad decision-making thinks that entitles them to take my property away from me, but that is not selfish? Why?

      And someone who benefits immensely from the society around them thinks that entitles them to keep every red cent and fuck the rest of you, that's not selfish and childlike in your eyes?

      In closing, don't lecture me about selfishness because that's your favorite talking point. You just make yourself look like a presumptious ass. The next time you want to do that, learn something about the person you're talking to and you'll wind up with a lot less egg on your face.

      Funny, I don't feel any egg there. Nor do I believe for a second your claims about your many virtues, or that those values are widely held amongst libertarians.

      Relying on the vagaries of charity in order to help the poor does not work. We have a lot of history to show this.

    16. Re:This Is Pointless by shermo · · Score: 2

      I'd prefer to live in Sweden or other similar 'socialist' European country. If we're just throwing out examples of governance gone wrong then I guess my counterpoint is the fine country of Somalia.

      Face it: there are retards out there. You can either support them through programmes such as Social Security, or you can live in a society with a desperate underclass that will do anything to survive.

      I much prefer living in my society where I don't fear walking down the street at night, because even the lowest scum can get government provided healthcare and housing. Yeah, I probably pay higher taxes than you, but for me personally it's a great trade-off.

      --
      Insanity: voting in the same two parties over and over again and expecting different results
  5. But there's plenty of money by countertrolling · · Score: 3, Insightful

    for social media propaganda and sockpuppet accounts... Eh.. whatever. The whole thing is such bullshit

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
  6. Who needs to fund Open Government initatives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When sites like WikiLeaks do that for you for free?

    1. Re:Who needs to fund Open Government initatives by alex67500 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Heard of them recently? Gone really quiet all of a sudden...

  7. Re:As a kiwi. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Informative

    Who stopped trying?

    The specific people who are responsible for funding the Open Government sites are the members of teh majority of the U.S. House of Representatives.

    Those are the people who have "given up". They haven't given up on protecting their friends from being taxed, though. "Open Government" is for dirty hippies, anyway, so why should they care, right?

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  8. Less non-corporate info by SpzToid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Special interest groups own Washington. Consistent, open data and an informed public are usually at odds with these special interest groups. It was a milestone to get these initiatives started in the first place, but in this climate? I mean, NPR got cut, and while that might not sound like much, decent radio as we know it just DIED across most of rural America; and its the radio that often tied whole communities together.

    There's a reason America has the best government money can buy.

    No one should be immune to cuts. But should such information programs be killed off with nothing to replace them with? If nothing else, such websites help dispute so much of the opinionated pundit talk that Fox 'News' airs for hours and hours during Prime Time. There's those medical Death Squad panels you hear about, looking to save money by cutting medical support for old people, and then there's the facts.

    --
    You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
    1. Re:Less non-corporate info by lennier · · Score: 2

      those medical Death Squad panels you hear about, looking to save money by cutting medical support for old people

      Ah yes. We call those "private health insurers".

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  9. Not profitable enough by gmuslera · · Score: 2

    The Libya investment costed so far at least 186 millons, but having a friendly government there willing to share their oil with US corporations will return that investment several times in the next years.

    Also investing in something like that, after all the money they invested in discrediting Wikileaks and anything they published, looks like a waste.

  10. You've got the wrong department... ;) by borgheron · · Score: 2

    More like from the "We don't really want you watching and we're not really open and want to make it more difficult for you to monitor unecessary government spending department."

    GC

    --
    Gregory Casamento
    ## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
  11. Re:Dumb Cunts by Sarten-X · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's because people like you hate reason, are driven by emotion...

    Rage is an emotion. It's that feeling you have when someone has offended you beyond your ability to understand. It often manifests as an intense desire to cause physical harm to the offending person(s), with little to no concern for any mitigating circumstances.

    Perhaps the woman in question has a vision or coordination problem. Perhaps she's distracted thinking about other things. Perhaps you should have been a proper gentleman and made sure you were well out of her path, that she may go any way she likes. Perhaps, for a few fleeting moments, you could let a trivial inconvenience pass by you, and not demonize someone you know remarkably little about.

    What moral principle says that someone should be so privileged that they can risk injuring others without even trying to be responsible and should never ever suffer any consequence of that?

    That's a very good question. Why should anyone be given the ability to risk injuring anyone else, especially around the face, which is of high social importance?

    Given that you've shown you know nothing about the other side of the story, and appear unable to empathize, why should you be the sole judge of who should be injured and who shouldn't?

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  12. Re:the end of Obama by Seumas · · Score: 2

    Wait, what were all these things that he tried to push in his first term, other than health care (which, of course, wasn't a real health care solution but a way to force Americans to put more cash in the pockets of the health care industry)?

    He promised that the first thing he would do is get us out of Iraq. He said "you can take that to the bank". Today, we're still in Iraq. And Afghanistan. And Libya. And tensions are brewing elsewhere.

    He promised that there would be no more closed door negotiations, but he has had countless of them. Remember how he was going to let everything be viewed on CSPAN or whatever? Yeah, never happened.

    He promised no more revolving doors. His administration wouldn't be the place government employees leveraged their positions to go get huge corporate payout gigs or for corporate execs to come to and do the bidding of industry under the guise of being the czar of one thing or another. And that's happened too many times to count, now.

    Then there's the whole continuation of the idiotic Bush stimulus handouts. Wasn't one of the first things he did was sign a trillion dollar stimulus giveaway?

    He's done very little and attempted very little. Why anyone expected something different, I don't know. It absolutely baffles me how all of these fucking morons come around every four years and say "so we've had 43 pieces of shit fuck things up . . . but THIS TIME it will be TOTALLY DIFFERENT and my vote is going to CHANGE THE FUCKING WORLD!".

    No. The next president will be about the same. And the one after. And the one after. *shrug*.

  13. More hope, more change, more broken promises by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 5, Informative

    Every fucking politician is a lying duplicitous scumbag, and we should be able to sue their asses when they break their promises.

    Verbal contracts are binding in my state, I think campaign promises should fall under those rules.

  14. yes, but by turkeyfish · · Score: 4, Insightful

    this is precisely what republicanism and "shrinking the government" is all about. Of course, they are even more clever by slipping in all their favorite kickback schemes into the defense budget that no one dares touch for fear of being labeled anti-American. Its the perfect scam. No or a shrinking government lets them get away with anything they want and you and I get to pay for it in further reductions in regulations and services that may potentially save the lives of millions. Republicans are good at recognizing that millions can starve or die as long as they get their millions.

    1. Re:yes, but by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your mistake is thinking that somehow government is actually doing something to prevent millions from starving or dying.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
  15. War by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Informative

    $4 million is what. 20 minutes in Iraq/Afghanistan? A day in the "War on Drugs"?

    1. Re:War by clang_jangle · · Score: 2

      War -HUH -- good god, y'all!
      What is it good fo'?
      Corporations' profit -- say it again!

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
  16. Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And yet somehow there's always funding to rain $600,000 missles down on some 3rd world nation. Oh, well. I guess they fund what matters to them.

  17. Wikileaks and the Open Government initative by EnergyScholar · · Score: 2

    Wikileaks has gone quiet because there has been a lot of real news lately. E.g. The Arab Spring, nuclear meltdown, et cetera.

    You can safely assume that once the news gets back to 'What color underwear did Brittany Spears flash to Charlie Sheen', Wikileaks will be back in the news. As they have already told us, the next target is a major US bank. If Wikileaks were to release incriminating documents about, say, Bank of America, while a nuclear power plant is melting down, this would not get maximum exposure. Wikileaks knows that their maximum exposure will come when the 'news' is 'quiet'. After all, they can control the timing of their releases. Think about it.

    One other note: most readers probably missed it, but just two weeks ago Wikileaks released another State Department cable that is causing a huge political kerfuffle in India - something to do with which Indian politicians bribed which other politicians, and how much it cost: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/18/world/asia/18india.html

    I'd say that's hardly 'really quiet'.

  18. Not so fast... or so simple by bussdriver · · Score: 2

    I wasn't an Obama supporter; however, I have seen him do much more good than harm while having to take the blame for things beyond his control. I'm not just talking about the economic mess (which was years in the making and more in the fixing) but the OVERWHELMING CORRUPTION. Obama will probably sell the farm rather than let the republicans shut down government -- which is too bad because they are more nutty now than they were last time.... Now days we actually have some congressmen who believe the PR lies as truth (for example: Bachmann, MN -- and most the right has an open hatred for the other side and its hard to ignore so one expects some return hate...) You can't be a republican today without being apeshit or stupid.

    The reason Bush was closer to a dictator was because he went with the flow. Obama is tacking against the flow and getting a little progress while moving mostly sideways and in some areas completely losing ground. One simply can not move in all directions at once. Especially if he is all alone-- his staff is not so hot either - I won't go into where he is just flat out wrong if not bought off. Healthcare was almost entirely him, his staff gave up and that says something good about him. He wouldn't have been allowed to get in if he was going to be a real threat... ANYBODY post-bush was going to be a fall guy, its just how it works (you think Rove and the smart guys really wanted/cared if McSame won? ever hear of a sacrifice?)

    REAL Politics is about how to look like you enjoy eating shit while covertly tossing as much of it as you can onto your predecessor's pile.

    You can be powerful if you have the powerful behind you; otherwise you are lucky to survive when they plow over you. A Taoist approach of using their power against them only works to an extent - even in martial arts, a powerful enough foe is going to fuck you up no matter how much you try to redirect and deflect their power. In these corporatist times that approach seems (to me) like just a stalling tactic at best. A serious fight is coming and absent a political forum it will become violent.... Unless they can continue to sucker people forever... like 1984; except we're always at multiple "wars", including between the 2 parties.

    All we have now is the GOP completely playing politics to the point where they are purposely trying to ruin everything even their own ideas - just to harm Obama; they hate him more than Clinton (must be the skin color.) Its a false political war distracting from the real problems and Obama has openly been trying to stop it and failing to do so; he doesn't seem to realize no president that allows this propaganda warfare to continue can get us back on track. The corporations are raping us while this ship sinks and any disaster or infighting is to their benefit.

    In my state, the idiot GOP is fighting to cut all the walnut trees down in the state parks to raise money! (naturally sold at a cheap price to donor who also is "over-regulated" as if this would do any real good.) They are also fighting on nearly every front to make us mirror 3rd world states like Georgia (US state; however, I wouldn't be surprised if that nation was in better shape.) - in many cases repeating the same policies that worked so well down south in all those welfare states. It has little to do with ideology and much more to do with the corps buying them off. The dems just play weak while the other side openly fights for some of the most blatant corruption in generations. Sometimes I wonder if democrats would be as stupid if their party was hijacked... I won't need to wonder for long, its been gradually happening for some time.

    If you wanted an honest guy with no-compromise for corruption you are just asking for another martyr.

    There is no hope for people who read/watch mainstream "press" in the USA. Turn off your telescreen.

  19. Re:The open government president! by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2

    No, you don't realize that all it takes to defund a programme is for the House to refuse to fund it.
    FTFA:

    The White House requested $35 million for the e-government fund in 2011. The House allocated only $2 million in its bill, H.R. 1. The Senate, meanwhile, would provide $20 million for the e-government fund.

    You should notice that the House Republicans are busy shutting down the government, again, by refusing to govern.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  20. If it wasn't funding by memnock · · Score: 2

    they'd find another "reason" to shut it down. I'd try to blame the Republicans, but Obama probably supports closing down such sites just as much. He's been following in Bush's shoes when it comes to accumulating power and using the cloak of "security" for justifying all sorts of b.s.