California Library's Plan: Get Rid of Books

HansonMB writes "Facing the likelihood of state budget cuts that would eliminate $15 million for library and reading programs – and, apparently, create a future in which people no longer read things on paper – the city of Newport Beach is considering turning its first library into a community center that would host all the same amenities – except for the books." The library has been inundated with hate-mail as people around the country have learned of their idea, and they hastened to clarify that no final decision has been made; carting books in as needed from other locations was always part of the plan. Whether or not they go through with it, efforts are underway elsewhere to create a massive, public digital library, spurred in part by the recent ruling against Google Books.

Comments

I Know!

[WrongSizeGlass]

I bet they can raise money by selling all their books on eBay (or some such site) and they won't have to worry about this shit anymore. That'll show those kids!

starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[jdogalt]

There's a great fictional story about this- pick up a copy of Vinge's 'Rainbows End' at your local libr... oops.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Daetrin]

There's a great fictional story about this- pick up a copy of Vinge's 'Rainbows End' at your local libr... oops.

Except in that case, if i remember correctly at least, the library was giving into bribes from a megacorp that wanted to (destructively) digitize the books as part of their business plan. So it was due to corporate greed and stupidity.

In this case the public doesn't want to pay taxes to fund the library, but they get outraged when the library tries to make cuts to deal with the reduced amount of funding. So it's due to public greed and stupidity.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[retchdog]

well, it's probably two different publics, with little overlap...

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[RajivSLK]

There is no single "public". Some people don't want to pay for the library other people love the library and are outraged. Sounds a little less irrational that way.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[lgw]

The public doesn't want to pay taxes to fund 6-figure public sector salaries and pensions, and the people making that pay decide to cut libraries and schools instead of their own pay (shocking, I know - but to give some excuse, at the state level the constitution requires pensions be funded first), and the public is outraged.

Cali is doomed anyhow - we may be the pioneer of state bankruptcy before much longer here, and many local governments are in crisis already (as the state's ability to bail out local governments is quite limited), and things like keeping the streeghlights on, the roads patches, and the trees clear of the power lines are fading before the all-consuming pension costs. (No joke: in my city the city switched from cutting trees away from roads and power lines to requiring homeowners to hire someone to do that - permit required, of course).

Still greed and stupidity, of course, but not so simple as you make it out to be.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Pseudonym Authority]

God damn greedy librarians, already known for their vast wealth, they are just trying to extract more of the poor, oppressed, public's money to horde MOSTLY LIBERAL books like the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf.

Fucking drains on society. Libraries should be run by the FREE MARKET!

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[kinkozmasta]

The public doesn't want to pay taxes to fund 6-figure public sector salaries and pensions, and the people making that pay decide to cut libraries and schools instead of their own pay

That maybe true, but the public is grossly misinformed if they think there are many public sector workers making those kinds of salaries. The average salary of a local public library librarian was $47,940 in 2008, for example. http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos068.htm

(shocking, I know - but to give some excuse, at the state level the constitution requires pensions be funded first), and the public is outraged.

And why shouldn't pensions be funded first? They are nothing more than deferred payment of a worker's salary. Not paying a paying the pension is basically saying "We'll give you $100, $80 now and $20 later, to do x amount of work." Then after the work is done only paying them $80. I can't imagine any other scenario where that would be fair or legal.

Cali is doomed anyhow - we may be the pioneer of state bankruptcy before much longer here, and many local governments are in crisis already (as the state's ability to bail out local governments is quite limited), and things like keeping the streeghlights on, the roads patches, and the trees clear of the power lines are fading before the all-consuming pension costs.

Employee salaries and benefits only make up about 10% of the state budget ($7B salaries + $3.4B benefits) (p.177). This can hardly be blamed for the budget woes of California. Much more serious are Prop 13 and 2/3 majority needed for the state senate to pass any tax increases.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[samweber]

The public doesn't want to pay taxes to fund 6-figure public sector salaries and pensions, and the people making that pay decide to cut libraries and schools instead of their own pay

Indeed, 6-figure public salaries are an outrage! Kids graduating college with MBAs earn 6-figure salaries in their first jobs, and how DARE police chiefs, city planners and those people responsible for the safety and well-being of entire cities even consider themselves to be worth even a small fraction of the worth of an 22-year-old with an MBA! It is not enough that public employees are paid significantly less than their corporate counterparts, but they should be publicly flogged, each and every day, to punish them for being willing to work for the good of the citizens of this fine country!

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[richlv]

it would be kinda cool if we had some technology to distribute books and other content like that to people without having massive expenses for maintaining physical storages and systems for lending them. of course, we could not reach whole population at first, but we could at least serve part in that way, thus significantly reducing the costs to the society.

while it might reduce the income for some authors, we are seeing a huge growth in content provided with no room of growth for demand for it, so it would fit nicely with demand-supply curve. it's somewhat of a shame that technology does not keep up with our increased artistic output. society has outgrown the technology for sure.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

If I only had mod points - being married to a librarian, I can only say this: librarians are civil servants who look to better our society by helping people obtain and use information. If the rest of us should only be so luck to find ourselves doing something half as laudable.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Rhinobird]

I thought Cali's problem wasn't the current budget, but the huge debt they've accumulated, and have no way of paying.

(op-ed from about a year ago) http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/06/opinion/la-oe-crane6-2010apr06

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[antdude]

And Reading Rainbow. Oh wait, it ended a while ago. :(

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[magarity]

Employee salaries and benefits only make up about 10% of the state budget ($7B salaries + $3.4B benefits) (p.177). This can hardly be blamed for the budget woes of California. Much more serious are Prop 13 and 2/3 majority needed for the state senate to pass any tax increases.

That number for salaries is for state employees, not all employees of the lower government levels. There is $30B for education and the biggest expense in education is salaries but teachers are employees of local school districts and universities. Something like 90% of a typical school district's expenses are salaries. Other categories are similar; a lot of the money goes to localities where they go for local government employees' salaries.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[PopeRatzo]

The public doesn't want to pay taxes to fund 6-figure public sector salaries and pensions

I know. It's those greedy, bottom-feeding librarians, and schoolteachers and cops and firemen and garbage collectors who have brought this great nation to its knees.

We've got to stop those people before they wipe out the good common folk, who work for a living and pay their taxes, like the hedge fund managers and investment bankers.

the all-consuming pension costs

Public employee pensions make up an average 2-3% of state budgets nationwide.

Since it's clear that your anger at having to trim the tree on your own goddamn property, along with your greed and stupidity, lgw, have so corrupted your thinking that you're unable to accept the fact that the average public employee makes about $65k and the average employee nationwide about $43k. But see, private employees tend to skew much more to the blue collar. You've got to average in all those people working at Wal-Mart and McDonalds for minimum wage, whereas most public employees are the educated, blue collar variety.

When you figure in level of education, there really isn't a discrepancy between public and private employees. It's been fabricated to make people like you, who lack the analytic ability to understand why you should be worrying about why your company has screwed you out of a pension instead of why someone else has managed to keep their pension (hint: unions are good for workers), get all pissed off and shake your fist at the teevee and completely miss the reason why your income and benefits and working conditions continue to deteriorate to the point that if you had a wife she's probably wishing she married that nice guy who became a lawyer with a nice practice (and who was a much better lay). And most important, you'll forget who you really ought to be blaming in this whole mess.

People like you, who get played like violins by the people who are screwing you right into the ground and end up blaming everyone who has got something that you don't, disgust me. The only thing that attenuates my disgust is the knowledge that you have to live with your impotent anger like bad case of the piles.

Just don't fuck up our country any more. OK? I don't want my kid to have to grow up in a third-world shithole because people like you were pissed off that some college professor (yes, they're counted as "public employees") gets a six figure salary.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[kick6]

Indeed, 6-figure public salaries are an outrage! Kids graduating college with MBAs earn 6-figure salaries in their first jobs, and how DARE police chiefs, city planners and those people responsible for the safety and well-being of entire cities even consider themselves to be worth even a small fraction of the worth of an 22-year-old with an MBA! It is not enough that public employees are paid significantly less than their corporate counterparts, but they should be publicly flogged, each and every day, to punish them for being willing to work for the good of the citizens of this fine country!

What fantasy world do you live in where a zero-experience college graduate armed with an MBA makes 6 figures. Cuz....I'd LOVE to live there!

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[slick7]

And Reading Rainbow. Oh wait, it ended a while ago. :(

Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficial. – Justice Louis Brandeis
The first book I would recommend is "1984" and the second "Fahrenheit 451". when the power goes out, then what?

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've recently rediscovered the joy of wandering a library with physical books, due to a new library in my community. And it's a pleasure that electronic distribution can't match. Yes, I use an ereader, and it's convenient, but wandering the shelves, seeing what your eye lights on, physically picking up a book and flipping it open... it's just a wonderful experience that communities should hesitate to throw away. Particularly since libraries can also function as social areas to help bring communities together... something you certainly can't say about ereaders.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

How is prop 13 a problem? If we spend more than we have how does raising taxes solve the problem? This is like saying the reason why I can't pay off my credit cards is because I can't get a 2/3 majority to lower my interest rate. The reality is that you are SPENDING MORE THAN YOU HAVE. We need to stop educating criminals, and to stop making welfare and unemployment a way of life.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[PCM2]

Employee salaries and benefits only make up about 10% of the state budget [ca.gov] ($7B salaries + $3.4B benefits)

That's only counting the payroll expenditures that come out of the General Fund. Total state expenditure on payroll is about $23.6 billion, or just less than a third of the total resources available for 2010-2011. The percentage of General Fund is also closer to 12 percent.

Worth noting, though, that if you reduced state employee compensation to zero it still wouldn't make up for the budget shortfall.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[jgc7]

And why shouldn't pensions be funded first? They are nothing more than deferred payment of a worker's salary. Not paying a paying the pension is basically saying "We'll give you $100, $80 now and $20 later, to do x amount of work." Then after the work is done only paying them $80. I can't imagine any other scenario where that would be fair or legal.

I would fully agree with you if state employees were all on a defined contribution plan, but they are on defined benefit plans. It is like more like, we will set aside $20 for your future compensation today, but if you get a bunch of raises, live longer than expected, investments underperform, you are entitled to an automatic retroactive modification to that $20 for work you did years ago. I can't imagine a scenario where a sane person would agree to such terms.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[DinDaddy]

No need for mod points. Pretty sure GGP is NOT talking about librarians in referencing 6 figure salaries, but rather prison guards and other unions who have powerful lobbies, which plainly libraries do not.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Tackhead]

There's a great fictional story about this- pick up a copy of Vinge's 'Rainbows End' at your local libr... oops.

We want our floor space!
We want our library!
And most of all, we want our REAL books!

(That last demand makes for an even more ironic post, precisely because the demand doesn't quite fit with having to link the Hacekians' Librareome in order for the joke to make any sense. But that's totally Scoochi. Scoochi is large; it contains multitudes; gotta catch 'em all!)

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[geminidomino]

How is prop 13 a problem? If we spend more than we have how does raising taxes solve the problem?

Does prop 13 specify that you need a 2/3 majority to approve what gets cut? If not, that's the problem. Shortsightedness. You tie the hands of the assholes in charge, and then leave it up to them to decide what to cut, so the things you think should be cut aren't (because they are good for votes), and shit like this happens.

Apparently lots of people never played D&D and cast a "Wish" spell

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[lgw]

It's not the librarians making 6 figures, it's the people deciding to screw the librarians. Not sure why you'd think I was saying that the librarians were screwing themselves?

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[lgw]

Sorry, I'm not stupid enough to own property in CA, so your rant was mis-aimed. :p

Anyhow, when I say the people with 6-figure incomes making the decisions are screwing the librarians to keep their own pay high, how can you read that as saying the librarians are overpaid?

Oddly enough, I've lived in Texas, and they had roads and schools and libraries, and no income tax, and I've lived in Florida, and they had roads and schools and libraries, and no income tax, and now I'm here in CA, and they have a massive state income tax and are having real trouble keeping the roads and schools and libraries working - it's almost as if competence at governing mattered or something, instead of sophmoric arguments about greedy rich bastards.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[kinkozmasta]

Pretty sure GGP is NOT talking about librarians in referencing 6 figure salaries, but rather prison guards and other unions who have powerful lobbies, which plainly libraries do not.

Right, we all forgot about those powerful prison guard unions who were able to secure those fabulous $30-60k salaries. Get over it, there are basically no large groups of labor in the public sector that make 6 figures. There may be individuals within these groups making those types of salaries, but they are high level managers and few and far between.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

And why shouldn't pensions be funded first? They are nothing more than deferred payment of a worker's salary. Not paying a paying the pension is basically saying "We'll give you $100, $80 now and $20 later, to do x amount of work." Then after the work is done only paying them $80. I can't imagine any other scenario where that would be fair or legal.

Social Security?

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

AMEN

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Cheech Wizard]

The public doesn't want to pay taxes to fund 6-figure public sector salaries and pensions, and the people making that pay decide to cut libraries and schools instead of their own pay (shocking, I know - but to give some excuse, at the state level the constitution requires pensions be funded first), and the public is outraged.

This is the stuff I like: "Walker gives lobbyist's college dropout son an $81,000-a-year job - With no degree and little expertise, Wisconsin Governor’s appointee pulls in big bucks" http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/04/04/with-no-degree-and-little-expertise-wisconsin-governors-appointee-pulls-in-big-bucks/

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[CodeBuster]

we may be the pioneer of state bankruptcy before much longer here

California is always first into everything, no matter how stupid ($3 billion for stem cell research? why not, just add it to our tab), so why should bankruptcy be any different. I'm a California resident and personally, I would be the first to celebrate a California bankruptcy. It would be the final and indisputable proof of stupid policies and gross mismanagement, mostly from the left I might add, that took a once prosperous and well run state and flushed it completely down the toilet. In another decade, California will be as bad as Mexico, complete with high unemployment, out-of-control gang violence and corrupt government unless some fairly drastic changes are made and fast. I don't hold out much hope, so I am already planning an exit from Cali, when the proves to be necessary. What will happen when all of the most productive people finally flee the state? We'll see whether 99% of everyone left can live off the remaining 1% who actually pay the bills. It hasn't worked so far, but here in California that's just when the politicians here like to double down on the same stupid policies that messed things up in the first place.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[MaskedSlacker]

Right, we all forgot about those powerful prison guard unions who were able to secure those fabulous $30-60k salaries [bls.gov]

That is national, not California. The figure in California is vastly higher (mostly due to overtime/selling unused vacation time rules). You might as well cite prison guard salaries in Indochina, it'd be as relevant.

Public sector workers make MORE, on average, in California than Private sector workers when benefits are included on both sides. Their jobs are far more secure, and they get to retire sooner.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[xclr8r]

Libraries are more than books. They host a ton of databases and there are a lot of people who are unable to navigate those databases with out some initial help. Also there is a decent population (including younger people) who despise e-readers and prefer printed leaf format.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[rtb61]

Actually the greed driven stupidity *by the rich and greedy) was a result of not being allowed to increase taxes in line with inflation which resulted in continuous struggles to pay for existing services (requires super majorities).

One solution recently tried was to legalised marijuana and tax it but apparently it was blocked by drug dealers, and the alcohol and tobacco industry.

The biggest inefficiency with US government at all levels is of course contracting everything to private industry no matter how much extra it costs. Corporations never provides any proof they are more efficient, they just continually scream it from every corner of mass media. Logic is private corporations can never be more efficient that government ie 15% disappears as profit, 10% disappears as inflated executive salaries(7 figure sums plus bonuses), and of course another 15% disappears as advertising (you know all that bullshit about how great they are no matter how crap they really are). So approximately forty cents of every dollar disappears before any of it actually pays for any services meant to be provided and that without those infamous corporate wet dream 'no bid contracts'

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[kinkozmasta]

You might as well cite prison guard salaries in Indochina, it'd be as relevant.

You might want to cite anything let alone California. In California the average correctional officer's salary is $66,720. This may be more than the national average but hardly the fat cat 6 figure salaries that keep being espoused.

Public sector workers make MORE, on average, in California than Private sector workers when benefits are included on both sides.

And they are also MORE EDUCATED on average.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[MaskedSlacker]

You might want to cite anything let alone California. In California the average correctional officer's salary is $66,720 [bls.gov]. This may be more than the national average but hardly the fat cat 6 figure salaries that keep being espoused.

That's salary. It does not count overtime. It does not count being paid for not taking vacation time. They get full medical care with zero premiums. They get 90% of their base pay their last year for the rest of their life gauranteed. When you add up the total amount of money that they are either paid by the state, or would have had to pay had the state not done so for them, it's over $100,000 per year, on average. More if you lump the gauranteed pensions which they contribute to at much lower rates than private sector workers for much higher payouts (public union payouts are gauranteed by law--if my 401k tanks, too bad for me. If their pension investment tanks, too bad for ME because I still have to pay it to them). That's where the six-figure number comes from.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's hilarious... you're having an argument with someone you've made up in your mind. And you're letting it make you so very very angry.

Seek help.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[thomst]

The public doesn't want to pay taxes to fund 6-figure public sector salaries and pensions, and the people making that pay decide to cut libraries and schools instead of their own pay

That maybe true, but the public is grossly misinformed if they think there are many public sector workers making those kinds of salaries. The average salary of a local public library librarian was $47,940 in 2008, for example. http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos068.htm

Lgw's point that "the people making that pay" (i.e. - 6-figure salaries) in California are the ones making decisions to cut libraries is only somewhat correct. Those decisions about library funding are typically made at the City Council and County Supervisor level. In a handful of big cities, councilors can make 6 figures, but the vast majority of City Council members make far less than that. Members of the Board of Supervisors of populous counties do make 6 figures, but there are counties (Mariposa, where I used to live, springs to mind) where the position of Supervisor is a part-time one, and it pays quite modestly.

Employee salaries and benefits only make up about 10% of the state budget ($7B salaries + $3.4B benefits) (p.177). This can hardly be blamed for the budget woes of California. Much more serious are Prop 13 and 2/3 majority needed for the state senate to pass any tax increases.

And even Prop 13 and the supermajority required under California's constitution aren't the worst contributors to the state's current financial quagmire. The worst and most intractable malefactor is California's staggering bonded indebtedness. Decade after decade, California voters have endorsed one multi-billion-dollar bond issue after another, all payable from general tax receipts. When times were good, the state could more-or-less easily afford these obligations. However, when the economy nosedived, that debt remained - and the vast majority of bond issues are payable over the course of decades, so those payments won't be going away any time soon. And the U.S. Constitution forbids states to go bankrupt, so the money to pay those bond obligations - as well as to pay all the other core costs of running the state HAS to come from somewhere. Public employee pension funds are just a convenient piggy bank for lawmakers to raid for the money. Politics being politics, however, it's necessary for those who are eyeing the pension funds to demonize those whose property they are (i.e. - the public sector employees) in order to build support for raiding their pensions and stiffing them on their retirement income.

Thus Wisconsin, and the infinitely regrettable Scott Walker - and the same war drums are now beating in California: the real enemies of the citizenry are the arrogant, greedy bastards who teach our children, sweep our streets, patrol our neighborhoods, and fight our fires. Them and their high-falutin' middle-class lifestyles ...

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

In the UK there are many, many executives who earn more for running a company than the Prime Minister does for, essentially, running the country. Completely barmy.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[hey!]

Still doesn't matter. The future payments were part of the deal, no matter how unfavorable the structuring of those payments are. It's not like the employees are playing a fast one here, it was all down in black and white for anyone who bothered to look ahead into the future.

You couldn't walk away from a business deal where you agreed to pay 800K$ up front and later annual payments over some indefinite period by saying, "Yeah, but I didn't do the math properly and I'm paying more than I thought I would," or more realistically, "Now that I actually have to pay out, I wish I'd structured the deal differently." Those are not excuses.

The point of a pension is to encourage employees to join an organization and *stay* with it, which is why your payout goes up as you stay longer and your salary goes up. Once somebody has done everything you asked them to on your end of the deal, you can't say you've changed your mind and all things considered you'd rather hold on to your money, because you can't give them those years back to seek a better deal than you wished you had struck way back wen. Even if the deal you made was profoundly stupid, it's *your* responsibility to stick to it if you possibly can. You could declare bankruptcy, but that's only for the case where you literally can't raise the cash, not where raising the cash would be painful because it's detrimental to your future plans.

This is why I say the best time to tighten your belt is in the good times. You can't retroactively tighten your belt when the bad times hit.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[jaypifer]

Again, you do not tell the truth about public salaries. Private salaries are a complete number whereas public salaries include a base salary, legally guaranteed pensions (the rest of us wonder what a pension is), and a maze of perks from free cars to collecting sick days.

More educated? So this entitles them to what? Do you believe it makes them better than the unwashed public you write about?

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[CrimsonAvenger]

And the U.S. Constitution forbids states to go bankrupt

Which Article of the Constitution forbids States to go bankrupt? Just did a quick skim, and didn't see anything that stood out.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

Employee salaries and benefits only make up about 10% of the state budget ($7B salaries + $3.4B benefits) (p.177). This can hardly be blamed for the budget woes of California. Much more serious are Prop 13 and 2/3 majority needed for the state senate to pass any tax increases.

Unfortunately, the current budget does not account for deferred pension obligations. Those could amount to an order of magnitude more. Think about an additional $25 billion per year.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[PopeRatzo]

Oddly enough, I've lived in Texas, and they had roads and schools and libraries

And education at the bottom of the list. And from what I hear, they still have more than $20billion in budget deficits.

Apparently, "competence in governing" is not what you think.

California on its worst day is better than Texas will ever be. Ever compare the incomes in Texas to those in California?

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

Public employee pensions make up an average 2-3% of state budgets nationwide.

You hit the nail on the head, but not the way you wish you did. Those pensions make up so little of the budget because they are grossly underfunded. In California, I understand they need to raise contributions by almost an order of magnitude to meet their obligations.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[tibit]

It seems that bankruptcy is no cure for broke states:

[...]states like New York run up “their” debt indirectly. They issue bonds through tens of thousands of separate legal entities. New York “state” doesn’t owe all of that $78.4 billion in debt -- it owes only $3.5 billion in “general-obligation” debt. [...] Who owes the rest? The MTA, the Dormitory Authority, the Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority and so on. [...] So, if we let New York go “bankrupt,” does that mean that the TFA should go bankrupt? How ’bout the MTA? Should they all go bankrupt? Should a judge be able to take a big pile of money that the MTA, as a corporation working on behalf of the state, has committed to transit retirees and give it to, say, Dormitory Authority bondholders?

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[PopeRatzo]

Seek help.

Slashdot is my help.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember, California is broke . And the first priority is the Government Employee Union pensions.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[fuzznutz]

Now don't be confusing our loud mouthed, angry Tea Partier with facts. You'll give him a headache.

We have the same trouble in Ohio. I am astonished at how many simpletons, even those not associated with the Tea Party, have swallowed the party line. When you explain how things actually work, I always see that "oh!" look on their faces, followed by a recognition that they have been played. I don't know if it is more sad, or disgusting...

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[thomst]

And the U.S. Constitution forbids states to go bankrupt

Which Article of the Constitution forbids States to go bankrupt? Just did a quick skim, and didn't see anything that stood out.

Article 1, Section 8, reserves to Congress the exclusive power to enact "uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States". Congress has, at various times, enacted national bankruptcy laws (which is why there are no state bankruptcy courts - only a Federal judge can hear bankruptcy cases), the latest of which, superceding the Nelson Act of 1898, is the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 1978, codified as Title 11 of the U.S. Code. Title 11(101)(27) specifically defines states as "governmental entities". Title 11(101)(41) excludes government entities from being considered as "persons" for purposes of bankruptcy law. Title 11(109)(a) restricts the definition of a "debtor" exclusively to mean a person or municipality (and 11(109) then goes on to list a number of corporate "persons" - such as railroad corporations - who also are excluded from bankruptcy protection), which means that states - among other "governmental entities" - are not permitted to petition for bankruptcy.

At least, that's how I read it.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer - although I'm available to play one on TV, if anyone's interested.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Phoghat]

"Rainbow's End" is available digitally at a number of sites. Library my lily white ass.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

The rest of us have Google and Amazon's kindle. We don't need librarians anymore.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[tehcyder]

You might want to cite anything let alone California. In California the average correctional officer's salary is $66,720 [bls.gov]. This may be more than the national average but hardly the fat cat 6 figure salaries that keep being espoused.

Duh, it starts with a 6 so it's a 6 figure salary.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually the greed driven stupidity *by the rich and greedy) was a result of not being allowed to increase taxes in line with inflation which resulted in continuous struggles to pay for existing services (requires super majorities).

Ridiculous. Taxes increase on par with inflation automatically, just by leaving the rates alone. Consult a 6th grade primer on percentages, if you're unclear on the concept.

Also, high inflation is probably a good thing for the state (reducing real value of debt), although bad for the general economy.

If the state was allowed to easily raise taxes, they would have done so, spent it all, and would now have been in the exact same problem but with an even worse economy and fewer businesses to tax.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[HungWeiLo]

No income tax, but very high property taxes. A $300k house will get you a tax bill between $7,000 - $10,000 annually.

You'll pay one way or another.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[CrimsonAvenger]

My thanks, sir!

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

Get over it, there are basically no large groups of labor in the public sector that make 6 figures.

University football coach? No, wait, that's 7 figures. Hrm...

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[lgw]

California on its worst day is better than Texas will ever be.

I will never give any credibility to anything you write ever again. Don't mess with Texas, hippie.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[lgw]

The same size house will get you the same size tax bill (or more, actually) in California, because it will cost you 700K-2M for the house, so even at 1% you're still screwed. Here, you pay both ways. And if you want to add a room to that house, budget at least $15k for permits (just the up-front permit costs, not including any ... additional incentive that might be appropriate in your city).

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[DrJimbo]

I think I see the distinction you're making. One case is about humans being stupid and greedy, the other is about greedy, stupid humans.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[jonadab]

> Cali is doomed anyhow

All governments (national or otherwise) are doomed. None of them last forever. A few are conquered or otherwise absorbed from the outside, but most decay from the inside and just fall apart. Either way, sooner or later they cease to exist as a going concern.

The only question is how long it takes.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[Anonymous Coward]

it would be kinda cool if we had some technology to distribute books and other content like that to people without having massive expenses for maintaining physical storages and systems for lending them. of course, we could not reach whole population at first, but we could at least serve part in that way, thus significantly reducing the costs to the society.

What you did there. I see it.

Re:starting no doubt with 'rainbows end'...

[pnutjam]

When I was younger, it always seemed like the Government, both state and federal would adopt certain policies or salary rules for their workers in an attempt to make them more common in the private sector. Companies would often adopt these rules to compete for better workers.

Now they have found it easier to deny those benefits to government workers via legislation.
sad...

Should Read Like...

[Anonymous Coward]

Misleading title should be "California City Library to do Fahrenheit 451"

Derp?

[betterunixthanunix]

"We'll ensure that everything which is not important in a library is preserved!"

Keep them stupid

[ubergeek65536]

Isn't removing sources of learning the best way to win votes? That way the public will have no idea they are being brainwashed.

Re:Keep them stupid

[ExploHD]

Except Newport Beach, CA is a VERY rich town (Tesla dealership on the main highway) with most of the people there are already well educated and politically connected. Hopefully it wakes the extreme-right republicans of Orange County how their continuous tax cuts for the rich will have a severe negative effect on their community.

Re:Keep them stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

just the sort of "educated" idiots who need access to a book.
most of these people probably have law and business degrees so no book can undo that level of brain damage.

Re:Keep them stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

. Hopefully it wakes the extreme-right republicans of Orange County how their continuous tax cuts for the rich will have a severe negative effect on their community.

Republicans having a problem with cutting money to a program.

I don't see it.

"Books aren't the Government's responsibility!" or "Libraries are not in the Constitution!"

I don't think any Republican will have any problem with cutting budgets for libraries.

Very well to do people? They have Kindles in every room and download the books they want to read. Go to the library?!? That's for poor people!

Re:Keep them stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

It's worse than those degrees, they have the OC Register that does more damage; five minutes of reading and your IQ drops by 10.

Re:Keep them stupid

[ExploHD]

Chris Griffin: "Dad, what's a library?"
Peter Griffin: "It's a place where homeless people shave and go BM"

Re:Keep them stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Kill the fucking cretins! Shoot them in the Facebook! Stab them in the twitterthroat! BURN THEM ON MYSPACE DIE BITCHES DIE!

Re:Keep them stupid

[lgw]

Oddly, the rich in California (if by that you mean people with high incomes) likely pay the highest income tax rates in America, and yet it's here that the government is collapsing due to financial problems. Is it at least mathematically possible that the problem could actually be too much spending on stuff other than libraries, schools, and roads? In reality, I expect you'll find pension payments dominate spending and continue to grow until the federal government creates a way for the state to declare bankruptcy.

If England or Italy is any sign, the riots will be bad here when public employee salaries and benefits/pensions get cut during the bankruptcy. One can only hope the fires don't spread to neighboring states.

Re:Keep them stupid

[sizzzzlerz]

It certainly worked with the teabaggers. Dumb as fucking stumps.

Re:Keep them stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read the LA Times article that was cited, the cuts to library and literacy-related programs in the budget proposal from governor Jerry Brown. Hardly an extreme-right wing Republican from Orange County, last I checked. However, I realize it's much easier to blame Republicans and the rich than it is to read the articles and see where the cuts come from. The library cuts in Governor Brown's extreme-right agenda have been public knowledge since mid-January.

Re:Keep them stupid

[blincoln]

"Oddly, the rich in California (if by that you mean people with high incomes) likely pay the highest income tax rates in America, and yet it's here that the government is collapsing due to financial problems."

Even assuming that's true, how much of those taxes *do they actually pay*? Hollywood in particular is known for its essentially fraudulent accounting that turns every business venture into a loss on paper. It doesn't contribute to the state coffers if they manage to deduct their way down to a full (or nearly full) tax refund, even though - again, on paper it looks like they're paying high taxes.

Re:Keep them stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like the people who can't read the fucking article.

Re:Keep them stupid

[Imrik]

To be fair, people who are educated and relatively wealthy don't really need a library to get access to any books they may want. The problem is that while the town in general may be wealthy I doubt everyone there is.

Re:Keep them stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

...and calling someone a name and calling them dumb is a sure sign of higher intelligence.

Re:Keep them stupid

[slick7]

Education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed.
– Joseph Stalin

Re:Keep them stupid

[ExploHD]

If you knew California politics, then you would know that the cuts come from a compromise that avoid either a serious tax increase or budget cuts; there should be a little of both if the California Republicans agree to it. That's what happens in a state where tax cuts come from a simple majority and tax increases require a super majority.

Re:Keep them stupid

[phek]

I would image that newport beach gets very few people checking out books from it's library (shit i don't even know where it is). As you said, newport is very rich and most people there would opt to just buy a book and now with kindles/nooks checking books out from the library makes even less sense. Plus if you live in that area, you go to the massive huntington beach library if you want to go to a library.

That being said there are plenty of other ways they could be saving money that doesn't take away from something as important as education.

Obvious Scifi nerd question

[fredmosby]

If there are no books on paper how will we get informaion after the Zombie Apocalypse?

Re:Obvious Scifi nerd question

[hldn]

see: book of eli

Re:Obvious Scifi nerd question

[Rhinobird]

see: book of eli

Dude, that's funny right there.

We should privatize our public libraries

[GodfatherofSoul]

Libraries are nothing but money sinks that private industry has proven they can run at a profit. Look at Borders and Barnes and Noble! We should sell our public libraries to private industry and let the Free Market determine what patrons read.

Re:We should privatize our public libraries

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you honestly believe that big business will stand up to the FBI and nutjob book-banners the way real librarians do?

Re:We should privatize our public libraries

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Please direct me to some big box book store where I can check out a book or a music CD for two weeks for free.

Re:We should privatize our public libraries

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a great way to get libraries full of "stuff that sells," and nothing else. Shelves full of Harry Potter and Twilight novels. Man, what a great world that would be. We might as well burn the books about history.

Re:We should privatize our public libraries

[GameboyRMH]

My sarcasm meter is showing well-above-background levels of sarcasmotrons coming from the GP comment...

One step closer to Stallman's prediction

[ron_ivi]

Late last century Stallman predicted as much:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

> ... there was a time when anyone could go to the library and read journal articles, and even books, without having to pay....

Re:One step closer to Stallman's prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Stallman also got AIDS late last century. Shouldn't he be dead by now?

Re:One step closer to Stallman's prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Late last century ...

Way to make me feel old.

Might as well say "Late last millenia ..."

Re:One step closer to Stallman's prediction

[ghmh]

Earlier last century Ray Bradbury, Aldous Huxley, George Orwell and many others also predicted as much.

Re:One step closer to Stallman's prediction

[gmhowell]

Earlier last century Ray Bradbury, Aldous Huxley, George Orwell and many others also predicted as much.

Yeah, but did they eat toe cheese on camera?

Re:One step closer to Stallman's prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

But with the speed at which information moves on the internet, people no longer want to give exclusive rights to publishers like Nature. With the difficulty of getting attention to journal articles and such, making it free will be necessary to get anyone to review your work. Today I see the cure for cancer dying in copyright litigation, and in a hopefully near future it being the next homebrew meme. We are in an ugly transitional phase where hopefully soon people will realize that big media is hanging on by a thread to social media, and when that thread breaks, they will be forgotten.

At what date was that story posted again?

[OneAhead]

http://motherboard.tv/2011/4/1/california-library-plan-get-rid-of-books-replace-librarians-with-videophones

Re:At what date was that story posted again?

[OneAhead]

Now that I had a closer look at it, this is actually a bit of an insidious April's fool - based on true facts, only greatly exaggerated (and somewhat twisted). I'm not even sure it's not an inadvertent slip-up in typical "sloppy journalism" style. In which case I would recommend the journalists involved to try to save their face by pretending it was an April's fool.

Re:At what date was that story posted again?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know its a joke, but not a really, really, really bad joke.

In my area, parts of this "fake" plan has already become a reality. You have to special order/request most of the reference section and self-check out stalls are near the returns/check out area. Half of the second floor and third floors used for computer space only.)

Re:At what date was that story posted again?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot could have had similar somewhat believable articles with some humor and a point, but instead they had news-free-make-up-your-own-story day. Next year slashdot will remove the article text and replace it with a shared javascript coloring book pictorial new representation.

Library closing under another name

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems to me this is really a story about closing one or more library branches, but retaining the space as a community center that can still access the inter-library loan system. By using the headline "..get rid of books" it just makes the story more sensational.

With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[greymond]

I don't really see why libraries are holding onto actual books these days anyway. Seems like the best thing to do would be get rid of the paper, make more room for public readings and other events that happen at libraries and then have the entire book library all digital in PDF and ePub formats for each book. That way you could read whatever you want on whatever device you have.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Great idea. And if you're too poor to own a hundred-dollar book electronic book reader, well then fuck you. You don't really belong to our democracy anyhow.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Because everyone has an ebook reader, right? Hell, if they don't have one they obviously don't deserve to have access to a library anyway. Are they hobos or something?!

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[Tacticus.v1]

Real books don't die after 36 loans

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[lee1026]

libraries are not cheap. It is probably cheaper to lend them the e reader then to maintain the stacks of books.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[l0ungeb0y]

Maybe because paper books aren't surrounded by the draconion rights restrictions that either outright prevent sharing and lending, or at best severely limit the ability to share/lend that we see with electronic publications.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[johnsnails]

I thought the posts above were onto something until i read your post! I think you are spot on, this is not about restricting reading to wealthier citizens, its about a paradigm shift in the way we read, a way that is superior to the current model in almost every way!

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[ffreeloader]

Yeah, it's stupid to store objects that will last 20 to 50 years, even when being lent out to the general public, and replace them with objects that have about 1/10 the lifespan and cost twice as much. You must be a genius at figuring out how to cut spending.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[lee1026]

Books can last that long. They usually don't. The average library throws out a large number of books every day. Most of the books thrown out are usually not very old. Also, storing and organizing the books are not cheap, neither is shipping them from branch to branch.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[lgw]

Yeah, it's stupid to store objects that will last 20 to 50 years, even when being lent out to the general public, and replace them with objects that have about 1/10 the lifespan and cost twice as much. You must be a genius at figuring out how to cut spending

Someone has a bright future in government, that's for sure!

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[Anonymous Coward]

"Real books don't die after 36 loans"...or the electricity goes out and your battery dies or after the publisher decides to reach into your e-reader and yank out whatever book they see fit.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[basotl]

The average library book lasts about 8 years. I'm not trying to argue with your point of considering cost effectiveness... I'm just correcting a detail. Books that last in the 20 to 50 year range are not average but they do exist.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[Steauengeglase]

Libraries aren't just repositories for stacks of John Grisham novels that were printed into the millions. There are these things called private collections. Go to largest public library in your area and dig around in their basement. If you are into history, especially local history, there are things there that will blow your mind. Diaries, letters, old periodicals from long ago wars, all of that and much more, without watermarks or DRM; the original thing, on the original print. This is what gets lost and very literally thrown into a dumpster when we close libraries or shrink them down to make space for a few rows of beige boxes and they are things that Amazon isn't all that interested in monetizing.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Correction: Real Books don't die after 26 loans.

And libraries with Real Books often have more than one copy of a book in the system to lend out at any one time. Which can be returned and re-lent before the lending period expires.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[slick7]

Real books don't die after 36 loans

...or when the power goes out.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[Cheech Wizard]

This is not to mention documents on microfilm and/or microfiche and such. I'm 60 years old and over my life have spent a lot of time in libraries. Many libraries are excellent history repositories, treasure troves of information and history.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[GameboyRMH]

An ebook reader, if ruggedized, could easily last 10 years and cost half as much as an iPad while doing it (which is no more than a lot of books cost). You can also cut the footprint of the library from a massive climate-controlled book warehouse down to a main office area, a reading area and a small server room. I'd say lending readers is a pretty good idea.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is a public lybrary exists to serve all of the public not just the ones wealthy enough to own a computing device capable of displaying an epub document. They could lend out devices as well, but those would have a high atrition rate from drug adicts pawning them (not a problem with paper books but will be an issue with any electronics).

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[fuzznutz]

My Kindle goes a month between charges. If YOUR power is out for longer than a month, I'd say you have bigger problem than what to read in your spare time.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[CompMD]

I have books from the 1700s in perfect condition, and I have read them. Show me a reader device that will be around in 300 years and functioning, or an ebook file that will be in a format we can read in 300 years.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone can afford an iPad, or a Nook or a Kindle. The idea of public libraries is to make books available --even to those who can't afford them.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[ffreeloader]

The average library throws out books fairly regularly, not because they are worn out, necessarily, but to create room for new books. And, they get rid of books by usage patterns, not by age. If newer books aren't read they get rid of them rather than popular older books.

As to the cost organizing books, well, once that's done the first time it's not the regular paid employees who do that work but high school and college students working at minimum wage, or thereabouts, or participating in work/study programs. That's how the libraries I've used have done that, and I've used the local libraries wherever I've lived quite a bit.

The local library where I live has a lot of books well above the 20 year old mark. Many of the authors of the books on the shelves have been dead for more than 30 years and they are read on a regular basis. Frederick Faust(Max Brand) died in 1944. Robert Hienlien died in 1988. Isaac Asimov died in 1992. Louis L'Amour died in 1988. All of these guys have books on public library shelves written decades before they died. They are just some of the more famous authors whose decades old books are still to be found in the public library.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[ffreeloader]

Well, I will dispute this. I don't have single electronic item in my home that has lasted 10 years, and I don't abuse my possessions. You can bet the ereaders lent out to the general population will be badly abused. A 1 to 3 year life span, after being ruggedized, would be more like it, and that doesn't count take into account the failures that happen just because they are built by humans. I'd doubt a non-ruggedized ebook reader would last on average much more than 3 to 6 months.

You have also omitted the cost of the ebooks themselves and how the publishers will view the lending of their ebooks. I'll bet they would tack on a fairly steep per rental charge to the library, something which a book does not have. Plus, ebooks are fairly new and who knows where the file format will go, so depending on a decade lifespan for an ebook reader to figure costs is pretty iffy.

Outside of that you need to consider the reading habits of the general population. I know very few people in the general population who will choose an ebook over a paper book. I'm into technology, but I'll take a paper book over an ebook every time. Less eyestrain. Better tactile feel. Much easier to read in sunlight. Much longer lifespan.

I own books published back to the late 1800's. You're never going to get a digital file format to last that long.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[GameboyRMH]

I have a GBC that still works, it's well over 10 years old, they're cheap and well-known for being able to take a beating. Why can't the ebook reader be built like one of those? Once circuit board with a strong, thick ABS plastic shell. I have other systems that have lasted over 20 years, but those were pampered compared to the GBC.

IP issues could be a real problem but are beside the point of an ebook reader's durability.

As for formats, that's no problem. Use something open, and unless all civilization is wiped out, you'll be able to read it in the future.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[slick7]

My Kindle goes a month between charges. If YOUR power is out for longer than a month, I'd say you have bigger problem than what to read in your spare time.

And when you've read everything on your Kindle and power is still out, then what? I can still walk to the library and check out something else. I've been reading since the age of four and I'm not about to stop now.

Re:With PDF and EPubs, it makes sense

[ffreeloader]

I have a GBC that still works, it's well over 10 years old, they're cheap and well-known for being able to take a beating. Why can't the ebook reader be built like one of those? Once circuit board with a strong, thick ABS plastic shell. I have other systems that have lasted over 20 years, but those were pampered compared to the GBC.

IP issues could be a real problem but are beside the point of an ebook reader's durability.

As for formats, that's no problem. Use something open, and unless all civilization is wiped out, you'll be able to read it in the future.

Ummm... We're talking local government entities when we talk libraries. There will be immense pressure, plus much other skullduggery behind the scenes, applied to keep the formats proprietary. Yes, I'd much rather see open formats too, but I don't think we would see that come to fruition. Since when has government done the logical, sensible things, rather than selling out? Seen all the negative publicity the tea parties get? And all they want to do is cut spending and put our country back on a sustainable economic path.

inf storage risky during holycost final .5b push

[Anonymous Coward]

the native americans knew that. probably why they still know what happened (teepeeleaks etchings) to them & others, even if they still cannot comprehend (no words) the inhuman motives & processes. pass it on.

How will we view Google Books in 20 years?

[ajs]

I think this decision was an unfortunate one. I do think the terms of the settlement should have been challenged, but striking it entirely puts Google Books in jeopardy. Lest anyone forget, what Google has managed to do is to produce a reasonably accurate electronic library of millions of books, many of which do not exist in any other digital collection, even that of the publishers (and some publishers no longer exist). This is a vastly valuable asset. This ruling basically sends us back to the drawing board on how and when they can give the world access to it, if at all.

In 20 years, I suspect we'll look back at the state of digital publishing and wonder, "why did the library die?" Well, when we ask that question, this decision will be the answer. For lack of perfect, we selected nothing.

Oh, and this story is misleading. The summary says, "efforts are underway elsewhere to create a massive, public digital library, spurred in part by the recent ruling against Google Books." That's not true. This article is about an effort to study what form such a library should take and how it might be done. There's currently no effort I know of that's moving forward in any way other than Google Books.

Re:How will we view Google Books in 20 years?

[martin-boundary]

I'd rather have a huge pirated collection of scanned books distributed underground for free to anyone than an approved digitized collection of books offered to the public only by corporations.

Maybe I'm funny that way, but when it comes to preserving the knowledge of mankind for future generations, I don't believe petty laws and economic gamesmanship should matter. Let people "pirate" away, and 500 years from now, the people who live *then* can decide if they approve of what our generation did or not.

Re:How will we view Google Books in 20 years?

[Anonymous Coward]

This idea will only be acceptable if there is some way to track and monitor what everyone is reading. Either the content it self needs to be controlled and manipulated, or who is using the content must be known. Anything else is a threat to our democracy.

Expensive Way to Reduce a Budget

[Colonel Korn]

So they're planning to save money by doing a (probably expensive) renovation and, I suppose, pay for it by selling their existing books? They must have an amazing collection of rare manuscripts for that to make sense. Or, more likely, some scumbags are using the reduced budget as an excuse to spend more money.

Re:Expensive Way to Reduce a Budget

[Anonymous Coward]

So they're planning to save money by doing a (probably expensive) renovation and, I suppose, pay for it by selling their existing books? They must have an amazing collection of rare manuscripts for that to make sense. Or, more likely, some scumbags are using the reduced budget as an excuse to spend more money.

Believe it or not, a capital investment in the right things can be a money saver.

Especially when you consider that a given library can wear out just from age, or be unsuited for current needs.

Too much penny pinching can cost money.

I know you're joking, but...

[Jonathan]

Circa 2000, you may have had a point. Big bookstores like Barnes & Noble and Borders were popping up all over, and generally had lots of comfortable seating. As a rather fast reader, I often spent a free afternoon or evening reading a book cover to cover in those stores back then. Guess too many people did just that. Now, you can hardly find a chair in most big box bookstores and they are closing up many locations anyway. I guess the free market can't support these big bookstores, which is too bad in a way.

Re:digital lending - it make sense!

[Nidi62]

Except right now, libraries present little to zero cost for the user. A person can(in many cases) walk or ride public transportation to a library, where at no charge they can get a library card and have access to the books. In your future, a person will need to have access to a computer or a tablet/similar device. Unless these devices(and the various services that go with them such as internet, WIFI, 3G, whatever) get so cheap as to be virtually free, then you are in effect going to be preventing a rather large proportion of the population from accessing these books. A proportion of the population that, arguably, would need this access the most. So, unless you want to help pay for the government to give out tablets/computers to everyone on welfare, libraries going all digital won't be happening any time soon.

Important bits that are not in the summary

[GrumpySteen]

From TFA:
the city's Balboa branch - which "accounts for about six percent of the 1.3 million visitors that utilize Newport Beach Public Libraries each year" - is underutilized and "could be changed to better fit the community's needs."

"patrons could 'order' books from the large Central Library (located about four miles away)"

This isn't about closing the only library in town. This is about cutting the cost of maintaining a branch that a small percentage of people use by not buying books for that branch.

As much as I hate the idea of libraries losing their funding, I can't honestly say I would be against this if I lived there. It's about 3 miles from my house to the nearest public library and it isn't a difficult trip. It's what most people I know would consider to be within walking distance.

Re:Important bits that are not in the summary

[Anonymous Coward]

From TFA:
the city's Balboa branch - which "accounts for about six percent of the 1.3 million visitors that utilize Newport Beach Public Libraries each year" - is underutilized and "could be changed to better fit the community's needs."

"patrons could 'order' books from the large Central Library (located about four miles away)"

This isn't about closing the only library in town. This is about cutting the cost of maintaining a branch that a small percentage of people use by not buying books for that branch.

As much as I hate the idea of libraries losing their funding, I can't honestly say I would be against this if I lived there. It's about 3 miles from my house to the nearest public library and it isn't a difficult trip. It's what most people I know would consider to be within walking distance.

Just to add a little context, Newport Beach is home to some of the most expensive real estate in the country, and Balboa is the most expensive within Newport Beach. It's a tiny, man-made island, and it's not a hardship for residents to utilize other branches of the library. The residents are likely displeased they can't drive their $5,000 golf carts to the library if they want a paper book; they'll have to take the Mercedes instead.

Re:Important bits that are not in the summary

[Anonymous Coward]

The Newport Beach Public Library currently has three branches with collections, and a fourth location (community center) with library services (holds, returns, librarians) but no collection. As I understand it, they are converting one of the smaller branches, which is only 6 miles from the main branch, into another community center.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable move. When the main branch (the one I use) loses its stacks, then everyone can start prophesying doom.

Re:Important bits that are not in the summary

[Anonymous Coward]

It should also be pointed out that most people in the LA area don't read books, don't own books, etc. It's just not part of the SoCal culture to read or otherwise edify one's self. They certainly will watch DVDs still - to the "intellectual elite" of SoCal sees that as the same as reading.

Re:Important bits that are not in the summary

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about 3 miles from my house to the nearest public library and it isn't a difficult trip. It's what most people I know would consider to be within walking distance.

Three miles, walking distance? Most people? In the USA?

Thanks, bud, I needed that laugh.

Give in to our robot overlords!

[jcmb]

CSULB and many colleges currently use a robotic system to automate book retrieval since most library space is used for studying and group meet-ups: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ae-sBImAh4 Sounds like Newport is on the right track.

Re:digital lending - it make sense!

[Anonymous Coward]

In the future, pad computers will be ubiquitous like normal PCs are now. Even poor people who want a PC can get one - older machines are still quite useful now (things 10 years old still work fine for web/email) and there are organizations that will recycle old ones and give them to people who can't afford new.

Pad computers are just now starting up in a big way triggered by the success o the iPad. In 20 years, they will be as common as carrying a credit card is today. (OK, a bunch of slashdot people will now say "But I don't have a credit card!" - but point is almost everyone does).

And as an aside, why the hell was my post you replied to modded down to -1?

will they keep the DVD movies and VHS tapes?

[Joe The Dragon]

will they keep the DVD movies and VHS tapes?

Libraries are about Librairans

[fermion]

The public face of a library, the face that gives it value to the average taxpayer, is the lending of videos, music, and books. OTOH, the mision of a library is education and highly trained librarians is what makes that happen. The librarian acquires resources, answers questions, and points patrons to where they can get information. For instance, I know many a sucessful business person who main resource is the local library. They got an effective BBA for nothing other than time spent reading in the library.

So getting rid of books will cause a PR problem, but as long as the resources are available the actual mission wil not be jeopardized. Of course a wholesale overnight removal of books will not indicated, but we must realize that the acquisition, storage, circulation, and destruction of books is hugely expensive. There are many advantages to a digital distribution scheme. Books can be automactically checked back in, and checked out, to patrons. No more waiting for a book to be returned, no more having to deal with library fines. A replacement charge for a book can easily be $50. No such charge for e-books. They are deleted automatically when the lending period ends, no physical return. Many people have e-readers, probably way over 1 in 10 americans have one. If libraries move in, a cheap e-paper reader can be sold by the library for $50.

At first I would think the very expensive technical books and subject specific books would be digital only, as well as journals. Kids books, popular magazines, and the like would stay in the stacks. Even this would save huge amounts of money in acquisition and circulation. This is something that has to happen, and most will embrace it in the end.

Re:Libraries are about Librairans

[Culture20]

Many people have e-readers, probably way over 1 in 10 americans have one.

I've seen two. I live in a moderately large city and have a lot of tech oriented friends. One friend owns a nook, another a kindle. That's it. In the closest B&N, people pick up the nooks and look at them, but they don't seem to be buying them. Probably 1 in 1000 americans or fewer own e-readers (unless you include computers and smartphones).

If libraries move in, a cheap e-paper reader can be sold by the library for $50.

$50? Compared to free library cards? Poor families can't afford $250 for an initial expense and $50 per year for every lost/broken/stolen library e-reader.

This is no different..

[Anonymous Coward]

than when they got rid of the cuniform because every body was into scrolls. Then they got rid of the scrolls cause all the kids were reading books.. And the same people just keep bitchin about change.

Don't be stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

The majority of our books are now produced in China. Cut them out, along with the publishers. In fact, I am going to guess that the majority of those carping, are those with a stake in this game.

Re:digital lending - it make sense!

[Dr Herbert West]

I see your definition of "poor" includes possession of shelter (so the rain doesn't get on your 400 dollar device) wired to the electric grid (to power said device). And credit cards.

After all, when I want to give a handout to a beggar on the street I prefer to use a credit card swiper, or direct deposit my spare change into their tin cup.

I don't think "poor" means what you think it means.

The conveniences you demanded are now mandatory

[Platinum Dragon]

I'm sure this will seem like a great idea... until the power goes out. I would think that the residents of a state subjected to power outages for profit not too long ago might be a bit more careful about increasing their reliance upon electric current for basic information accessibility.

If we don't replace fossil fuel generation with something more sustainable before peak extraction hits, we are all going to be knocked back to the Paper Age pretty fast. Say what you will about dead trees - they don't require current to operate.

Re:The conveniences you demanded are now mandatory

[badkarmadayaccount]

Expect hand crank generators to become real popular.

wouldn't this just cost more?

[applematt84]

the constant cost of the software, storage, security and maintenance would most likely cost more than to just keep a library open. not to mention lost jobs because librarians will be downsized and it's just no fun to read from an electronic screen. i'm sorry, but electronic books are good on the go however, nothing compares to holding and reading a REAL book. my $0.02.

ibrary bureaucrats

[Anonymous Coward]

At what point is someone going to suggest that trimming a few bureaucrats out of the library's budget as a good way to go about saving money? They always cut services first. Cut the desk jobs that aren't directly involved with an actual library. There have to be some. It's a government run thing. There's always bureaucracy that can be cut. I'm not talking about actual librarians, I'm talking about the people who never even see the stacks.

Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it I always see libraries and schools under funded? Chop the arm of the law enforcement agencies off. Those guys do not need the pensions. Oh wait I forgot, it's political suicide to be eliminate the poor old police officers.

Newport != poor

[wickerprints]

I'm sorry, but anyone who lives in LA knows that Newport Beach is not exactly "poor" or "cash-strapped" by any stretch of the imagination. It's a VERY affluent city, although being in the traditionally Republican stronghold of Orange County, maybe the taxpayers aren't willing to look under their suede leather sofa cushions to fund basic public services. This smells more like a scheme to do something trendy, rather than some sincere attempt to reduce spending.

Re:Newport != poor

[d0g_solitude]

I'm not sure what the Orange County Republicans have to do with the Democratic governor's proposed cuts to the state library funding...

Re:Newport != poor

[KalvinB]

Perhaps it's a scheme to extort tax payers by cutting essentials rather than waste to convince the population they need to pay more in taxes.

Re:Newport != poor

[hardie]

So that's why they don't use their library...

Re:Newport != poor

[Anonymous Coward]

CA budget process is fubar - they need about 2/3 vote to pass one -- so its like a filibuster is built into the process; they also have to do this every year so its the same long drawn out fight every year. Then you have all these laws passed that eat up MOST the budget leaving very little to actually work with. So everything that can be touched gets attacked out of desperation to do something.

Then we have the stupid practice of failing to fund things intelligently (mostly a GOP problem) by not setting things at the rate of inflation so then they have to be redone again later because they shrink each year to the point it becomes a problem. Also, these games they sucker the voters with..... don't get me started... like "pay freezes" which are really pay cuts (see inflation) on top of the normal pay cuts that often go on because again they don't set the rates based upon inflation.

Naturally, we can't tax the banks anything... ya know, the source of all our recent economic problems....Or the funds who also made out like bandits from this crash or the oil companies who continue to make huge PROFITS while lying about BS problems causing oil prices to rise... and if they were true then they wouldn't be making record profits... Yeah those trading markets really "level out" oil prices...ha! what a load of crap! not to mention all the completely wasted brain power that goes into these casino schemes which add no value to society...

shipping books

[memnock]

back and forth. What's that gonna cost in gas? I realize libraries already move books around for interlibrary requests, but this would probably increase the volume of books moved, which would lead to more fuel consumed. Granted it might not change much, I don't know.

Re:shipping books

[Anonymous Coward]

6 miles? If Gas usage is an issue over that distance, they can buy a push cart and give somebody some exercise.

Re:Fines, Hugely Expensive, Etc

[TaoPhoenix]

There's got to be a way by hybridizing the two entities plus Print On Demand. Mashing up several posts, don't ship books anywhere (except Ex Libris sales), print a new one & count it as an aquisition. Don't wait for a book to be returned.Who cares? Send the guy a bill for purchase (Redbox model). It's a "guaranteed sale" because the person went to the trouble to "check it out". If he wakes up and doesn't want to purchase it, there's your return. Replacement charge = $5 for the in stock copy - but only when it's actually demanded.

And definitely ebay the lights out of everything - there's got to be people in the country who want X tome, so sell it. What is this "throw out" junk?

Fahrenheit 451

[Kittenman]

(Oblig). Get rid of the books. They just make people depressed. And paintings. And music. And Windows (the ones you open).

Old news

[d0g_solitude]

The state library cuts were publicized mid-January. They were part of the proposed budget by Gov Jerry Brown. Hardly an OC republican.

Someone should tell them

[chebucto]

There's always money in the banana stand ;)

Re:Someone should tell them

[Thing 1]

Ah, but then, we have no bananas today. Perhaps a nice turd sandwich?

Re:digital lending - it make sense!

[Imrik]

Obviously in his future we follow the socialist ways of Star Trek and the like ensuring shelter and computer access for even the poorest citizens.

Re:Fines, Hugely Expensive, Etc

[Anonymous Coward]

Xtome?

Re:digital lending - it make sense!

[ColdWetDog]

Unless you're somewhere different from everybody else, we're not in the future yet. MOST books don't have an electronic equivalent. A library is not just for stocking best sellers. Until this changes (a bit further in the future), libraries will have to contend with the paper stuff.

From a local

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in Balboa. In my opinion this is all part of a master plan the city has to scrape money together to pay for their new city hall. The city has grown via annexation and the number of city employees has exploded. Even in this time of bankrupt cities, states and governments our city is "full speed ahead" with the new building. In their quest for monies they have raised parking meter fees (25 cents for 10 minutes) and ratcheted up enforcement of parking, busting drivers for talking on their cell phone and speeding. They just recently tore down the old Balboa Market and put in a parking lot. Cue Carley Simon.

The Balboa Library is the original library for all of Newport Beach. It's a small, quiet, funky old building where my parents took me as a child and now I take my kids. The staff was all locals and knew all their customers - especially the local kids. They knew my kids and what they liked to read. My kids loved going to the library. A few years ago the city build a new central library in Corona del Mar that is a thing of beauty. To fill the shelves they raided the Balboa Branch. Then they got our head librarian to retire early. Somewhere along the line they cut back the open hours. Then the ever changing staff from the central library rotated in. The slow creep of taking away resources, eliminating quality staff and having the facility closed more coupled with the fact its the middle of the school year and we don't have many tourists drive the numbers are down.

The cost of keeping the building is quite small. The property and building have been paid for decades ago and the staff is minimal. My guess is the end game is to pave more paradise or sell it to one of their cronies.

Re:digital lending - it make sense!

[Anonymous Coward]

Next time, call someone a teabagger and fucking dumb. It gets you a higher score, and takes a lot less thought.

CAFR's

[Anonymous Coward]

People should look into their state and local governments CAFR reports, easily available online, before making any claims about those government being out of money. Of the 380,000 +/- corporate governments in the U.S., not one that I have looked into is anywhere near broke. On the contrary, most have more available liquid assets than they know what to do with.

How much of a cut are they really facing?

[kevinatilusa]

In Newport Beach, the library receives roughly $318,000 in state funding (source http://articles.dailypilot.com/2011-01-14/news/tn-dpt-0115-library-20110114_1_library-budget-newport-library-library-funding ). I can't open the Newport Beach budget documents at the moment, but recently the city referred referred to $132,500 cut in library funding as a "2% reduction" in the library's budget (source http://www.newportbeachca.gov/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=4738 ).

So by my count the library's facing less than a 5% cut in its budget if every last cent of state funding is cut. And yet they're talking about eliminating books. This smells more like passing the blame to the state and/or trying to get publicity/sympathy rather than an actual budget crisis due to reduction in state funds.

Spend more time at the library

[jaypifer]

Since you are the public, it follows that you are grossly misinformed as well. In fact, you misrepresent the salaries and defeat you own argument in you second paragraph by saying their real salaries aren't including pensions.

You see, the rest of us take out of what we make and save what we can in retirement funds. They arent guaranteed by law on the backs of other people through taxes and aren't adjusted to inflation. You are not even remotely honest in comparing salaries in the private sectors to public.

Lastly, the problem isn't that California can't tax more through prop 13. That's merely a symptom of the disease of overspending.

times-trade

[tonnyben]

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re pensions 2-3%

[Anonymous Coward]

References

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3372

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/03/07/v-print/109933/illinois-pensions-devotes-15-of.html

the real source sees to be a center at boston university (amazing how often 1 or 2 academics can derail the right wing propaganda

these urls put the "avg" at 3.8% (close enough) except...they don't say if that is avg by state (eg, of the 50 states, the avg burden is 3.8%) or by total dollars across the country; if it is the former, it is misleading, cause it weighs Wyoming and N Dak and other tiny states equally with CA and IL and NJ, where, admittedly, there are much larger problems

also doens't address problem of healthcare cost rate increases

also, makes a dishonest assumption: that investment returns period 1990-2000 (roughly) are "normal" infact rates this period abnormal; last study I saw (sorry, can't find it , was in the n y times) said that over the long term (>20 years) avg rate of investment return is ~ 2% - so if that is true, teh 3 trillion figure is not bad...even as aliberal who would like to say that the rightwing is creating a false crisis, I don't really ahve the ammo to say that...

Depends upon what your degree in

[Cheech Wizard]

Depends upon what your degree in. If it's math, especially if you do your masters in math, a starting salary of very low six figures for a zero-experience college graduate is doable in many major cities especially in the financial world. If your degree is in Ancient Poetry, you may have a problem getting a job period.

With Solar Cells and E-Ink, it makes sense.

[Anonymous Coward]

Solar cells and E-ink make a perfect combination. Interesting though how a website dominated by patrons of the "new and improved" business model when it applies to others are suddenly gung ho for the "old and busted" dead tree way of doing something THEY enjoy.

Re:With Solar Cells and E-Ink, it makes sense.

[GameboyRMH]

Good idea. This combination would practically never need charging. If the lender e-readers are put on a charging dock when they're not lent out and have a battery like a modern cell phone, you'll never have to worry about battery life.

The big stumbling block with going to a digital library is IP issues. It's too bad we're pretty much in the middle of the IP dark ages. Publishers won't like the fact that the books are no longer physically scarce and will want to impose artificial scarcity to prop up their obsolete business model.

Dystopian reality

[oneofthose]

It's really scary when more and more of the dystopian science fiction stories become reality. Vernorn Vinge wrote about this in Rainbows End.

Re:digital lending - it make sense!

[michelcolman]

I think he meant the poor people within the subgroup of the population that is actually interested in libraries. There are of course even poorer people than those, but I doubt they will be up in arms about not being able to read books from the library.

Mod grandparent up

[michelcolman]

Wow, indeed, how did that post get rated -1?! You can disagree with it, but that's no reason to mod it down like that.

California never disappoints

[Anonymous Coward]

California never disappoints.

Every time you see something that makes you believe that you have seen the most retarded thing possible,
fuckin' California pipes up and shows you that is is still possible to be even more retarded.

de imaginatio monopoly

[PMuse]

From TFA: "Since no one else would be able to obtain a license to those [orphan] books, Google would have a de facto monopoly on millions of texts."

I can't believe that this FUD persists 6 years after the lawsuit began it. In fact, anyone could have started their own project at any time and scanned those books. There was never anything Google could have done to stop them. Google's project wasn't a monopoly, it was just first.

"People feel energized," said Robert Darnton

[PMuse]

Why now? Why not in 2002? Why not in 2005? Why not in 2008?

From TFA: "Mr. Keller, a member of the committee, said the project "is coming late to the party." . . . "There is no practical plan for getting it started.""

All the new ruling has done is to set "the party" back 9+ years.

Revisionist History Achievement Unlocked!

[ThatsNotPudding]

Helluva lot easier to alter the 'truth' in a database than in millions of dead trees.

The phrase 'Separation of Church and State' not found.

Re:Revisionist History Achievement Unlocked!

[Rizimar]

Don't forget the number of trees that get replanted every year. We have more trees now than we did 100 years ago.

I am going to be ran out for this but...

[gravis777]

This is actually not a bad idea

Look, I am a HUGE book fan, I love the feel of paper in my hand, the sound of the pages turning, the musky smell of paper. But lets think about this for a minute.

The public library system has always worked as a loss. It uses taxpayer money to fund something that is sadly appealing to less and less Americans. Shoot, I haven't been to my library in years - not when I can buy books used for a buck off of Amazon or my local resale bookstore.

I do think that libraries are necessary for the future of this country. Its funny, we complain here on Slashdot about the RIAA and MPAA not imbracing new technologies, yet we get all upset when the library does.

Shoot, its time for the library to modernize. Smaller buildings, throw in more terminals, check out ebook readers, and switch to digital copies. The library then does not have to go through the trouble of stocking a huge selection of books, readers can find rare and out-of-print titles easier, and it significantly reduces the costs of operation.

In cities with more than one branch, the main library can still stock paper books, and people can go in there if they want the old-library feel. People at the other branches can still requests book transfers from the main library if they prefer that over the ebooks.

Look, change is going to be hard for many people, but embracing technology is not a bad thing. Bring on the ebooks, and lets reduce costs.

It's sad to see the ongoing idiotification of USA

[Anonymous Coward]

But from a selfish point of view, as a European, it bodes well for my ongoing job prospects.

Race to the Bottom

[fuzznutz]

It's a race to the bottom and all the Tea Partiers are out in front screaming "Me First!!!!"

THEY ARE PRIVATIZING THE LIBRARIES!

[Al Kossow]

http://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/news/07142010/california-groups-oppose-library-privatization-talks

"Several nonprofits in San Joaquin County, California, are sounding the alarm as the county board of supervisors considers the privatization of the management of Stockton–San Joaquin County Public Library"

and

"Public libraries in Camarillo, Santa Clarita and Ventura have all been targeted for a takeover by Library Systems and Services (LSSI), a private company headquartered in Maryland and majority-owned by the private equity firm Islington Capital Partners."

Re:digital lending - it make sense!

[Shompol]

I assume 99% of poor people who use the library actually have a shelter and a $200 for a computing device. (and even $400, but 200 should buy enough computing to read a book). Most illegal immigrants I know work for miserable amounts of cash, and those of them who want still have laptops. Credit card is not needed to own a computer.

Those who do not have a shelter probably care very little about library books because their basic needs are not met. See this. Let's say digitize the library and spend the freed up funds to make homeless shelters? I don't think a library should serve both functions.

Physical vs Digital

[Rizimar]

Why have a physical location at all, then? If the books are going to be digital, just host them online. A library is a brick-and-mortar place that contains archives of actual text, often of things that aren't available online.

Makes sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Kind of make sense for a branch library.

How's your reading comprehension?

[fuzznutz]

I doubt your library is going to be open and lending books after a month of no power. As I said before, If you power is out for more than a month, you have bigger problems than what to read." Besides, my Kindle can be charged on my car USB adapter. And I'm not worried about running out of things to read on it. It has about 3.3GB of available free space. Since full length books are about 500kb to 1MB, I have room for more than 3,500 full length books. I already have easily more than a month's backlog of books on it.