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Fukushima: What Happened and What Needs To Be Done
IndigoDarkwolf writes "The sometimes confused media coverage around the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant left me wanting for a good summary. Apparently the BBC felt the same way, and now delivers an overview starting from the earthquake and concluding with the current state of the troubled reactors."
Not much and nothing?
One minute every channel has the exact same thing, then a few weeks later you go "Wait a minute..." and its like it never happened or it would seem so. Good ol'BBC gets it though.
first?
Japanese families are more nuclear than American families.
That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
At least 2 of the reactors blew up and are melted down, spewing radiation into the air, dumping radioactive water into the ocean and they are too proud to let anyone help them to stop it.
Pity that the nuclear problems seemed to overshadow all the vastly more important and tragic aspects of the quake and tsunami.
"if you don't think we're all gonna die of radiation poisonning, that the whole world will not become unihabitable due to fukushima, and that the level of contamination 10000km away from fukushima is fine, why don't you go spend a week in fukushima with no protection just next to reactor 2 ?"
It's a generalization, but I can summarize what needs to happen in three words: "Evacuate, contain, bury."
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwhFH75OCDs
There was a massive earthquake followed by an equally massive tsunami that buried the plant under 10 feet of water. That's what happened.
Earthquakes of that magnitude are rare. There have only been 6 in the world since 1900, and none of those were in Japan.
I think it will take a while for the full extent of this disaster to become known. Tepco and the government have been downplaying everything since day one. When the first plant exploded due to the hydrogen buildup, and they said in effect that "It isn't a big deal - just the superficial structure over the reactors was damaged" I knew for sure that they were painting a totally different picture than reality. The amount of destruction from those explosions was tremendous. What gets me is that after the first reactor building explosion, they still could not prevent the second (and worse) explosion. As an armchair nuclear plant operator, it sure seems like they have done a very poor job trying to reign in control of the situation.
Better known as 318230.
http://nei.org/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/ they have good daily updates. at the bottom of the current days update there is a link to the archives
The Japan Times reports:
The Nuclear Safety Commission of Japan released a preliminary calculation Monday saying that the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant had been releasing up to 10,000 terabecquerels of radioactive materials per hour at some point after a massive quake and tsunami hit northeastern Japan on March 11.
The disclosure prompted the government to consider raising the accident's severity level to 7, the worst on an international scale, from the current 5, government sources said. The level 7 on the International Nuclear Event Scale has only been applied to the 1986 Chernobyl catastrophe.
If the levels they are reporting are correct then every hour (for a few hours) Fukushima was releasing roughly 0.1% of the total release from Chernobyl. If those levels were maintained for a day (which they were not), that would be almost 2% of Chernobyl per day.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
Please rate parent post as troll.
Greenpeace, before anyone knew what was happening and without any scientific basis whatsoever declared that there would be 90,000 deaths from this 'disaster.' Even THEY reported that the Japanese government was producing reliable radiation readings when compared to their own on-site readings. When they, with a long standing history of propaganda against the Japanese vouches for the Japanese government then it's obvious that the Japanese government has some credibility in this area.
Ummm.... Those idiots have the best disaster response in the world. They did not delay and did not screw up. They did the best they could; far better than the US did in Katrina.
But then don't let your paranoia and xenophobia get in the way of the facts.
You got modded up to 5 for pointing out that this *is* a Chernobyl-scale situation? Either the nuclear apologists have gone into hiding or they misread your post.
The risks associated with iodine-131 contamination in Europe are no longer "negligible," according to CRIIRAD, a French research body on radioactivity. The NGO is advising pregnant women and infants against "risky behaviour," such as consuming fresh milk or vegetables with large leaves.
CRIIRAD, a French research body on radioactivity said it had detected radioactive iodine-131 in rainwater in south-eastern France. In parallel testing, the French Institute for Radiological Protection and Nuclear Safety (IRSN), the national public institution monitoring nuclear and radiological risks, found iodine 131 in milk. In normal times, no trace of iodine-131 should be detectable in rainwater or milk.
http://www.euractiv.com/en/health/radiation-risks-fukushima-longer-negligible-news-503947
This comparison is misleading, even if the raw amounts of radiation are comparable. The radioactive materials released from Fukushima Daiichi when those readings were taken have a half-life of minutes and don't pose a health hazard outside of the really close vicinity. The materials released from Chernobyl were much more dangerous, as they have a half-life of a couple hundred years, and only negligible amounts of those have been released from Fukushima.
Bottom line: this accident is not at all like Chernobyl, even though the "OMG RADIATION SPEWING FROM REACTORS!!!!!!" media likes to think so.
Does having a witty signature really indicate normality?
Day 1 - pro-nuclear activists claim there's nothing wrong, there's no danger, containment is fine, no radiation will leak
Day 2 - pro-nuclear activists claim there's nothing wrong, there's no danger, containment is fine, radiation leaks are minor
Day 3 - pro-nuclear activists claim there's nothing wrong, there's no danger, containment breach hardly matters
Day 4 - pro-nuclear activists claim there's nothing wrong, there's minimal danger
...
Day N - pro-nuclear activists claim nobody could have predicted a Tsunami on the Japanese coastline
I've taken a very good look at each part of the picture, and I'm amazed how much damage was done to the reactor buildings. Each and every building you see on the picture is much larger as it appears to be on previous photo's and video's I saw. Just compare the cars sitting next to the buildings. Then take a good look at each building: every one of them sustained extensive damage. There is a huge pipe that has been broken outside the most damaged building (3 most likely) - some of the pipes seem to have been mended. The power of the second big explosion is pretty clear from the buildings in front and to the back of reactor 3.
The fact that some of the heat is still at 224 degrees or so does not sound good either. How can you cool such a thing well without strong presure is beyond me, it's way above boiling point. And the water will be poluted with all kinds of radioactive elements.
I think we've learned that nuclear power has risks but is still much safer and efficient than most of the other possibilities.
On a related note do nuclear plants have the capability to shutdown cleanly? Otherwise the upcoming zombie apocalypse means I need to get the fuck away from any nuclear plants since zombies usually don't make good nuclear engineers.
I think the biggest mistake in the handling of the disaster was to leave the plant in the hands of the company. While it might be true that they know their plant best, once an incident like this happens, one should immediately bring the best people in the world or maybe Japan to handle the disaster. These should have basically unlimited funds and resources which in the end would probably be paid by the company. The reactor is or can affect a huge area, and it shouldn't just being the hands of the power company to fix it. These people could drop by with good radiation suits and possibly a portable diesel generator. Basically the nuclear fire brigade made up of specially trained Feynmans and McGyvers.
> Those idiots have the best disaster response in the world.
Yeah. The Japanese response was so bad that the US was considering a compulsory evacaution of all US nationals:
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110411004893.htm
"Commenting on the Japanese government's slow response, a U.S. government source said Washington had offered immediately after the accident to provide a pump to help cool the reactors, but the Kan administration turned down the offer
Another U.S. government source noted that in the initial stage of the crisis, Japan had taken the stance that there was no room for U.S. assistance when it came to dealing with the problem."
"In the meantime, further subplots would not be helpful."
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
It's nice that the Beeb has released this fairly calm and unbiased recap, but less sensationalistic coverage from the start would have been a whole lot nicer.
I've been watching the coverage of this story on a bunch of different sites for the past few weeks, and this is the best I've found - the MIT nuclear science and engineering site. Well written factual articles about the situation, almost entirely devoid of speculation and fearmongering, along with background articles on stuff like how toxic Plutonium is, how radiation doses are measured, etc.
Unfortunately Ivo Vegter is entirely correct: Every mainstream journalist out there should hang their heads in shame in regards to how their profession has covered this incident.
28000km^2 * 185kBq/(m^2) + 10500km^2*555kBq/(m^2)~= 11 PBq.
And this is only cesium. Iodine is more than 1000 times as radioactive. You can bet chernobyl released quite a bit of that as well.
Short half-life isotopes tend to release a lot of radiation during that short time. They're better long term contamination wise, sure - but saying things are benign because they have a short half-life is just wrong.
The two biggest offenders at Chernobyl were iodine-131, with a halflife of days, and Cs-137, 30 years. It's mostly the Cs now, obviously. Iodine was the biggest contributor to dose at the time of the incident, however.
The "Feynmans and McGyvers" bit made me chuckle, but your point is well taken.
Running a nuclear power plant is one thing. Managing damaged reactors is quite another.
-kgj
The releases from the Fukushima reactors were nearly all highly-mobile radioactive elements such as iodine, a vapour at normal temperature and cesium, a low-melting-point metal dispersed during the venting of steam and hydrogen from the reactor vessels. The Tchernobyl releases included large amounts of everything in the burning core after the entire reactor vessel slagged down and exposed it to the world including strontium-90, a bone-seeker which usually has too high a melting point to be easily released from a reactor.
The good news (if there is any) is that iodine-131 has a half-life of 8 days and a stable non-radioactive daughter, xenon. In three months time only 0.1% of it will be left and in a year it will be down to one-billionth of the original release. The bad news is that the major cesium isotope released, Cs-137 has a half-life of thirty years and it's not going away any time soon except through environmental means or a massive hands-on cleanup operation.
Reality will continue to disagree.
Let me FTFY: fearmongers will continue to disagree.
Apart from the usual "OMG, it's nuclear!!!" there are no valid arguments against nuclear power.
Let's have a reality check: it was the worst earthquake that ever hit Japan, the estimated material damage is $300 billion, the death count at this point is 12000 plus 13000 other people unaccounted for, presumably their bodies are either buried under the rubble or were washed to the sea.
All this, and all you hear about in the press is about four power plants???!!!??
Considering that Chernobyl released several percent of its core directly into the air through a graphite fire, and the reactor that exploded at Chernobyl was rated at 1000 MW (roughly the combined power of units 1 and 2 at Fukushima I), this can only be an extremely pessimistic upper bound.
Those who would give up liberty to obtain working drivers, deserve neither liberty nor working drivers.
When the first plant exploded due to the hydrogen buildup, and they said in effect that "It isn't a big deal - just the superficial structure over the reactors was damaged"
That's actually correct. They downplayed other things but that was totally accurate. You and people like you are spreading unwarranted fear, costing the Japanese economy billions of dollars through loss of tourism, and also causing incalculable harm to the environment through the many more years of coal fired plants we will now have to endure, which ironically will spread more radiation than every nuclear accident we have ever had combined.
It has ever been thus, those willfully ignorant of science and facts blocking progress, but humanity will hopefully work around this damage as they have over time and eventually we will progress and fix the damage you have caused.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
We need to accept that we are not capable of cutting through the BS and making clear decisions where highly toxic, unstable, and corrosive substances are handled in a complex manner for great profit (hundreds of millions of dollars).
Put another way, we need trusted technologists to tell us if things are safe or not. Apparently these can be bought when there is lots of money to be made.
At best, people don't think clearly. At worst, we are being lied to and as a result people die and whole regions are rendered toxic.
As a resident of N'Awlins, I feel I must point out that the disaster response after Katrina was far better than the media made it seem to be.
Pretty much like Fukushima, in fact. Things are blown out of proportion, much scare-mongering is occurring.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
According to the Nuclear Energy Agency the majority of the radioactivity released at Chernobyl was in Xenon-33 with a half-life of 5 days. This was followed by Iodine-131 (half-life 8 days) and Tellurium-132 (half-life 78 hours). The next most active element released (measured in Becquerels) was only 3% of the Xenon released, and it has a half-life of 13 days.
If I read the report from the NEA correctly then ISTM I was comparing apples to apples.
Furthermore, unless one or more of the reactor cores at Fukushima has gone critical again after the shutdown then any direct product of the fission reactions that has a half-life measured in minutes was gone after the first day of the accident, well before the meltdowns and hydrogen explosions and measured releases of significant amounts of radioactivity.
There are certainly very short-lived isotopes that are part of the decay chain of long-lived isotopes. Iodine-131 is a perfect example. The problem is that they will continue to be created for the duration of the longer-lived isotopes.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
Captain Hindsight saved the day one more time.
The Fukushima-Daiichi Incident, Dr. Matthias Braun, AREVA, March 29, 2011 (3.7 MB Powerpoint show) can be viewed with free LibreOffice
The waste is the biggest problem?
1. No civilian spent fuel was ever accidentally or on purpose released into the environment, even though transportation of it is common. Soviet military waste was sometimes dumped directly into rivers, but this is really unrelated to nuclear power.
2. The only person that ever died from civilian spent fuel was a guy that got ran over by a train during an anti-nuclear protest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_S%C3%A9bastien_Briat
3. If someone used only nuclear electricity (average U.S. electricity consumption) from present reactor technology for their entire life, he would generate about a soda can of waste.
4. Vitrified nuclear waste is completely insoluble in water. It's rather hard to spread it over a large area. Even if it was just dumped into the ocean, there would be no harm to humans - the waste would bury itself in the seabed. We are not using this solution because Greenpeace and other assorted clowns do not understand anything about marine biology or oceanography. http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/96oct/seabed/seabed.htm
5. Even if the waste does somehow escape into the environment, it is very easy to detect this. Radiation detectors are very cheap and compact compared to the laboratory setups needed to analyze chemical pollution - so cheap and compact that every radiation worker has their own detector that keeps track of their exposure. This fact facilitates cleanup operations.
I can understand the uneasy feelings, but let's have some perspective. This isn't even as bad as the hazardous chemical waste we already have to deal with (e.g. from semiconductor production, mining and metallurgy), which unlike nuclear waste will remain toxic forever.
Those who would give up liberty to obtain working drivers, deserve neither liberty nor working drivers.
Oh, so we're not modding people that compare Fukushima to Chernobyl into the ground any longer? 35 scorn filled replies questioning DrJimbos's intelligence will not be written? DrJimbo is obviously a fear monger, right?
Given the shear volume of damaged fuel involved in Fukushima it is undeniable that vast amounts of contamination has and will occur. Three venting cores and a burning spent fuel pool filled to the brim with waste. At this point the question is; how will the Fukushima exclusion zone compare with the Chernobyl exclusion zone? How many kilometers radii will have to be permanently roped off?
As for the story; the planet is collecting uninhabitable scars due to cost savings. For the want of just one row of foothills between the Pacific and Fukushima Diacci we've melted three reactors. The Fukushima plants (and all other coastal power plants) are built on the beach to save the cost of building an inland heat sink.
Harold Denton has cited credible studies from 20+ years ago that damn the GE Mk.1 design, a design created primarily to lower construction costs. No Mk 1's have been replaced based on that knowledge; only decommissioned upon reaching end-of-life when their operators failed (for purely economic reasons, like cheap natural gas) to seek a rubber-stamp extension.
Let us hope that China will, at least, decide to incur the additional costs necessary to site their new reactors so they don't get clobbered by tsunamis.
Plants must sited for operation that will span centuries; when the original reactors expire the replacements will be built at the same location. If this sort of thinking is beyond the imagination of the bean-counters calling the shots then leave nuclear alone; you're just building a catastrophe for your kids.
Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
At least they know how to name their power plants
I was a disaster preparedness officer with the US Air Force for a number of years. I would not allow foreigners on my disaster site either. What with the language barrier and unfamiliar equipment someone would be sure to get killed, and then you really have a PR disaster.
In the vast majority of single point disasters, a small well trained group can do much better than a large poorly coordinated group. Something about a mythical man-month, except that people die when you screw up.
1. A place had four reactors. /* loop exits when the world ends */
2. Earthquake 500 times beyond project limit happened.
3. Tsunami ensued, killed lots of people.
4. Some reactor went out of control.
5. Crisis management phase: lies from pro-Nuclear, desperation from public.
6. The world didn't end, so...
7. Media thrived on sensationalism; even more so because authorities kept mum.
8. Reactors proved unsafe.
9. But the next generation will be safe. Please buy from us.
10. Goto 6.
I hope you're right. Let's run some numbers. Say 2% of the Chernobyl core got released and let's say only one reactor at Fukushima is leaking and it has half the total radioactivity of Chernobyl. That would mean the Chernobyl release was 4% of the leaking core at Fukushima. The figures from the article indicate 0.1% (more accurately, 0.07%) of the Chernobyl release escaped from Fukushima per hour for two hours.
This would be 4% x 0.0014 = .0056% of the core of one Fukushima reactor.
Given that a sizeable fraction of the fuel rods have melted down (as
reported by TEPCO) and given that there is a significant leak out of
the containment vessel, and given they are pouring tons of water into
the vessel to cool it off, that doesn't sound extremely pessimistic
to me. YMMVG.
The trick at Fukushima will be to dissipate the heat without dissipating the radioactivity. They should be able to accomplish this trick if they can restore the primary cooling systems. But if they can't, and they have to keep pouring tons of water into the reactors then a significant percentage of the radioactivity in the core will probably leave the reactor. It doesn't necessarily have to get into the environment but it is going to be one heck of a messy problem.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
I also arrived at the similar ~11PBq (11007.5 Tbq). I will take your next statement a step further with a rough mathematical approximation. This will be based on things that can be disputed, of course, but it's just for ballpark sake. The wikipedia article states that cesium-137 was being measured. According to mitnse.com, cesium-137 has a yield of 6.1%, and iodine-131 a yield of 2.8%. From that we can say that masswise, just under half (45%) of the amount of iodine-131 was released as cesium-137. WolframAlpha says that cesium-137 has a radioactivity of 3.214 TBq per gram. That comes out to about 3424.86 grams from the 11007.5 TBq. The calculated release of iodine-131 would come to 1572.07 grams of iodine-131. Iodine-131 has a radioactivity of 4598.8 TBq per gram. This would indicate that the released Bq would have been about 7229621.19 TBq, or 7.23 EBq. Of course, since iodine has a short half life, it is not a concern in the long-term.
This is of course, assuming everyone goes exactly to model so it is not terribly reliable, but you can get a rough idea. It is also based on my hilariously bad understanding of math, so if I'm out of my element feel free to correct me.
#3 containment may have been breeched. Parts of it are in the turbine hall. Another large part is sitting on the large pipes between the #4 turbine hall and #4 reactor. For scale, look for vehicles in the photo. Zoom in and note the color under the layer of dust from #4 blowing.
The truth shall set you free!
Someone mentions this every time all of you pro-nuke people, say it's over blown, media panic. Well, you know what? My relatives live in Tokyo and all you arm chair holier-than-thou nuclear is safe shit gets irritating. Why don't all of you shut the fuck up now. It's now Level 7. You all just shut the FUCK UP!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_earthquake_rating
It is the publicists and the control freaks who can't. Building a nuclear reactor that is extremely safe is trivial. Building one that is fundamentally incapable of a meltdown is harder but doable. Building fail-safe technology isn't hard. Designing for catastrophe (which, in the UK and US, means assuming all of the worst-case scenarios happen simultaneously) already happens. Fault-tolerant designs (ie: ones that are intended to function even when things go wrong) have existed for decades. The technology isn't the problem. The technology is a cinch.
The problems are:
Every time someone complains about taxes being used for environmental protection, scientific research or education (ie: 99.5% of all Tea Party statements) they are saying that the insignificant amount they save is more important than the consequences of a failure. I disagree. If it took doubling taxes to make existing power stations environmentally safe and capable of handling catastrophic situations, I'd say go for it. To hell with the complaints, the whiners will complain if there's any tax at all and very few people are interested in dying on the whiners' behalf.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
One milli-sievert = 100 millirem. Chest X-ray = 10 millirem=.1 milli-sievert.
On NHK World, a Japanese official is explaining why they are raising the severity to 7. He is talking about Chernobyl a lot. He said that to date, the amount of radioactivity released from Fukushima is 10% of the total release from Chernobyl.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
What happened is pretty simple, really. You have an island that is prone to earthquakes. You have a very bright people who decided to do something that in hindsight was really stupid and put a fragile building that houses incredibly frail yet awesomely powerful technology on said island. Mix and stir and you have a deadly and devastating cocktail of doom.
Sad, but true.
"To make a mistake is only human; to persist in a mistake is idiotic." Cicero
Wiith the release of heavy radionuclitides with half-lives of 300.000 years and longer, 90% of Tohoku region contaminated and rendered a no-mans-land dead zone, the collapse of the country Nippon is immeninant.
Over the next few days we will witness the collapse of agriculture, industry, and banking within Nippon. World financial markets will drive bond values and the currency to zero value.
Infrastructure wll fail as riots break out; bank riots, food riots, loss of law and order and civility.
The rulling government and its Prime Minister, Naoto Kan, will call for China to enterviene. China will!
In less than a year the country of Nippon will become a province of China.
By spring of 2018, Manderin will be the offical language of the "Nippon Province."
Nippon, will be dead..
In your old link. From TEPCO:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11041202-e.html
Press Release (Apr 12,2011)
Fire at the sampling equipment at the water discharge channel, Units 1-4, Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station (2nd release)
At approximately 6:38 AM, April 12th, fire has been found at the
distribution switchboard containing batteries located in the sampling
equipment switchbox situated close to the south water discharge channel
for Units 1-4. The self defense fire fighting team conducted the fire
fighting at an early stage. At the same time, at approximately 6:45 AM,
we reported to the Futaba fire authorities.
As a result of the fire fighting, it is confirmed that the fire has been
under control without fire or smoke.
There is no impact on the external release of radioactive substances or on
the cooling capability of the reactor from this incident. There has been
no change on the monitoring figures of the surrounding environment.
We will continue monitoring the status of the plant and the surrounding
environment around the Power Station. We will investigate the cause in
detail.
(Previously announced)
The Futaba fire authorities confirmed fire extinguishment on site survey
at 9:12 AM, April 12th. We will investigate the cause in detail.
TEPCO did many things wrong in the early hours from the disaster, but they are very straightforward now and I have my highest respect for whoever was the manager that ordained the evacuation from site when in the fire in unit 4 the radiation surged to very dangerous levels. He didn't requested from his men suicide heroism like the russians in Chernobyl.
Kyodo has TEPCO's pictures of just when the tsunami hit the station:
http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/2011/04/84500.html
Another interesting piece from Kyodo, that highlights the value of prevention and emergency preparedness:
http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/84552.html
OPINION: What worked and what did not: views from the field ... ...
By Rajib Shaw
TOKYO, April 11, Kyodo
In Kamaishi, Iwate prefecture, an eight-story tsunami evacuation building stood undamaged very close to the shoreline. On the hazard map, distributed by the city government, this building was designated and marked as an evacuation building with clear instruction that people need to evacuate higher than the fourth floor. What is more interesting is that, on March 3 (also the day of the 1933 Showa Sanriku earthquake and tsunami) an evacuation drill was performed with local residents and school children. Therefore, tsunami awareness was rather fresh in their minds and people took shelter in evacuation buildings and on a nearby evacuation road (a pre-designated road on the nearby mountain with access stairs), immediately when they felt the earthquake. This shows the importance of evacuation drills and disaster education.
For early warning systems to be effective, a proper risk communication mechanism, which links both information provider and receiver, is needed. In the March 11 disaster, the tsunami warning and tsunami advisory were issued within three minutes after the event.
The warning was broadcast though the Japan Meteorological Agency webpage, television, radio, social networking media, and also through announcements from the town and city offices. However, in several places, init
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
"Oh, I am so confused by the media. Pity me."
You techno-fetishists are certainly a bunch of pantywaists.
From those of us who see the reactor buildings explode, explode, explode and know radioactive elements are spread in the air for miles it looked a lot like
Chernobyl and when that was pointed out we were scoffed at for being right. When tons of water are pumped into melted reactors it does not just disapear,
it comes out contaminated with radiation, as steam or as water. And being next to the ocean the water is going into the ground and the ocean and polluting
the life in the ocean. The steam drifts in the wind. Life concentrates radioactive elements in the ocean. We all know that. We know they are leaking out of the
containment. We know they still cannot cool the reactors and the open fuel pools now filled with debris. We know there is gobs more radioactive fuel than
at Chernobyl.
The only confusing media is the lies by the government and TEPCO and the sock puppets supporting the nuke industry. Everyone else on the planet knows
what is going on and so far almost all the most dire consequences reported are true. Water very radioactive: "No, no", says TEPCO. Sorry, wrong.
"Not as bad as Chernobyl". Sorry, wrong. "No need for a large evac area". Sorry, wrong.
Bellow away you diehard techno-triumphallusts. Trumpet how safe it is, how everything is under control, how no one could know there would be earthquakes and tsunami in Japan. How confusing it all is for you pitiable whiners, oh how the media and the greens are to blame for all this mess.
For the foreseeable future? Really? If you are willing to pay over $4/gallon of fuel equivalent to gas long term, there are a dozen solutions to provide that fuel. We can create diesel fuel from coal, crude oil from Canada's oil sands, and even from oil shale, with a nice profit, thank you very much. Heck, we can let people around the world starve and make ethanol at a profit from food at that price. Solar is near $1/watt for completed modules, and even the cheapest nuclear plants in the US struggle to compete with that. We have a nice reserve of coal, especially the dirty kind. You bet, we're going to burn every cheap ton of it.
A line above should read:
"in a lot of ways the plant in Japan with problems is more advanced than all but a handful of civilian reactors in the USA"
I asked a few weeks back on Slashdot "what the hells REALLY happening? Is this worth freaking out about, or, like so many apologists claim, "its not big deal"? " And look where we are now, its dragging out, things are STILL effed up, seemingly getting worse by the day, radioactive leaks, radiation detected worldwide from this thing... people scared shitless, and I still see a large number of defenders, "oh big deal, this doesnt happen that often! Its The Liberal Media who are to blame!"
If one person from a non Nuclear country is harmed, thats one too many. *Anyone* harmed by this accident is someone too many. This accident has caused a New Zealand outbreak of smug, its sickening, as we all pat ourselves on the back, "yup, we're so smart, everyone else is dumb", because we are a "Nuclear Free nation". We still have radioactive sources, smoke alarms, research etc, no Nuclear Power plants or weapons of mass destruction.
Apologies or excuse making gets us nowhere, the dead are dead, the people dead set against Nuclear are pushed "even more against it", the supporters complain about those reporting on this "little mishap"...the danger is getting WORSE...
And nothing changes.
---
1. how fukushima is no big deal, its media hype and confusion
2. how fukushima was easily avoidable, so therefore, its ok
3. how events like this are really rare. so its ok
3. how nuclear is really really safe, and science illiterates are hysterical
this is what is known as "denial" folks. they are now talking about the disaster in chernobyl terms:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/12/japan-nuclear-radiation-idUSTKE00635920110412
fukushima is the beginning of the end of nuclear power. this is a death knell. if you don't understand that, you don't understand anything. now let's hear some more denial from the "experts" who don't understand risk analysis
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Yep, that's all the power there is. There ain't no other kind.
don't forget the fuel in the pools, suspected to be partially melted (and perhaps slightly critical), that makes the contamination in the reactors look puny.
nuclear plant help people a lot to lower their expesen but with one hit damage will be terrible
Hotels In Pinas
The Tokyo area is said to be the world's largest city with 30 million people. Do you announce "DANGER!!!" and have 30 million people stampede for the exits? Or do you gradually raise the alert level, so there is a more gradual departure? That would be a tough decision for the leaders.
It seems like all during this Japan disaster a lot of slashdot comments have sounded to me like GE shills and don't-worry-be-happy media spin. Japan just officially raised the disaster level to 7, the highest and same as Chernobyl. Readings at reactor #1 have been 100 sieverts per hour - 6 is fatal. Food contaminations far above EPA limits have been reported in Hawaii. The worst at Chernobyl was over in 10 days while Japan's has been going steady for a month. Nuclear engineers - NOT media talking heads - have said this battle will last for years. Where are you guys getting your news!!??
What a disaster for the nuclear industry. The coast seemed to be clear, they pushed for more plants, crossed their fingers and it was all going well. It certainly looked as though we were set for more nuclear plants here in the UK.
Then look what happened - a tsunami circumvented the fail safe mechanisms of a nuclear reactor in Japan and the lobby is back to the beginning.
In the UK their PR guys have been out explaining that our plants couldn't go wrong like the ones in Japan because they are a different design. I have no doubt the Japanese engineers explained to their public that theirs couldn't go wrong like the one in Chernobyl because theirs were a superior design and Americans will have grown tired hearing that Three Mile Island was a one-off.
Experts might know lots of stuff but they seem unable to see the big picture. Planes will crash, ships will sink, rockets will explode and chemicals will leak. The unexpected will happen and your statistics will be found wanting.
Experts need very close supervision.
How is this BS modded to 5? Seriously? WTF is happening to slashdot in these stories?
But in my defense, I said the same on the 2nd day of the incedent, when the Japanese Ministry of Health Labor and Welfare announced that they decided to change the law allowing workers to be exposed to 250 millisieverts instead of 100 millisieverts....
It's actually quite simple, require nuclear power operators to get insurance to cover all possible costs of a nuclear disaster. Then they can operate. I have to get car insurance to cover the costs of a possible accident, so why not the nuclear industry? If nuclear becomes to expensive, tough luck. If they can't find an insurance tough luck.
Stop dreaming. Journalism is EXACTLY about being sensationalistic and bringing entertainment to people in form of news. Its not about education or cold (boring) facts. Unless you wanna starve.
;)
So actually, the journalists did a GREAT job milking this cash cow.
In other news, the easter bunny is not real either.
Calling nuclear power safer, because there have been only a handful of disasters, out of a handful of power plants (compared to the heaping truckload of coal plants) is bullshit. Build and operate a like number of nuclear plants with the same accident rate and then talk to me about statistics.
Nuclear Technology = Nuclear Accidents
Nuclear Power = Nuclear Weapons
Nuclear Weapons = Nuclear War
Nuclear War = Nuclear Death
Mankind cannot grasp the power of God. Mankind has no right to pretend to understand nuclear technology.
True nuclear knowledge is beyond man and beyond control. All nuclear technology must be destroyed.
All nuclear knowledge must be destroyed. Those who possess it must be sacrificed for the safety and security of the human race.
The genie must go back into the bottle, and we must smash the bottle and make it forever inaccessible.
This is the only way. The hard decisions must be made. Nuclear must be abolished permanently and forever.
Can we have a special moderation level for SEO spam that causes the links in their post to be deleted?
Maybe some kind of the very blind and stupid bias that they are so scornfully mocking in anyone not singing their song? I've come to consider them "nuclear islamists" - very similar condition of blind faith, unshakable conviction to know better and scorn and hatred for everybody who hasn't seen the light yet.
'The "building" that blew off is just a light screen around the reactor building itself. It's very light weight panels hung on an equally light frame, designed to screen the reactor building from view. Nothing else. '
See, now, this is part of the problem. A lot of pro-nuclear people are saying this is no big deal. But to most people, when a building explodes, that's a major big deal even if there *isn't* a nuclear reactor inside it.
This minimizing attitude hurts nuclear power almost as much as the rapid anti-nuke people do.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
"... unlikely to generate anything larger than an 8.3 or so ..."
And Fukushima I was unlikely to be subject to a 9.0 quake and 50 meter tsunami.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
"I've never seen a pro-nuclear activist claim any of these things."
Aside from the obvious Slashdot postings... the article here:
http://mitnse.com/2011/03/13/modified-version-of-original-post/
Originally stated, in unequivocal terms, that "there will *not* be any significant release of radiation" (that's pretty close to an exact quote). It was widely circulated, widely quoted, and even posted on Slashdot (a few days late, of course). It has since been edited to remove such predictions, but you can find originals on the web.
Your statement that you've never seen such cavalier dismissals does more to damage your credibility in my eyes than any anything. You're apparently not paying any attention. If that's the case, why should I believe what you have to say about nuclear power?
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
The idea that you can infallibly predict natural disasters is darkly humorous to me.
If you could accurately plan for every catastrophic natural event before it happened, we wouldn't call them disasters.
"It's not a building, it's a falsework designed to hide the building. Big difference."
Citation needed. Everything I've seen suggests the structures damaged in the explosions were the top parts of the building housing the reactors. These are not the secondary containment (the thick concrete "drywell" surrounding the reactor pressure vessel) but they very much are buildings. In particular, they cover the storage pools holding the spent fuel.
http://www.gereports.com/how-it-works-white-paper-on-mark-i-containment/
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
This is the Fukushima Nuclear Accident Update Log from the International Atomic Energy Agency.
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html
They have been recording specific facts every day that you can use to gauge the plant's progress. For example, take this copy and paste from the report on April 11: "In Unit 1 the pressure in the RPV is increasing, as indicated on both channels of instrumentation. In Units 2 and 3 Reactor Pressure Vessel and Drywell pressures remain at atmospheric pressure. RPV temperatures remain above cold shutdown conditions in all Units, (typically less than 95 C). In Unit 1 temperature at the feed water nozzle of the RPV is 228 C and at the bottom of the RPV is 121 C. In Unit 2 the temperature at the feed water nozzle of the RPV is 149 C. The temperature at the bottom of the RPV was not reported. In Unit 3 the temperature at the feed water nozzle of the RPV is 92 C and at the bottom of the RPV is 111 C."
Seems a lot more scientific than the average news media to me...
The total estimated released from Fukushima has been 10% of Chernobyl to date. Almost all of that happened in first day or two.
Current levels at the facility (gate area) are 2 uSv/h. Current situation is stable, but remains very serious. Heavily contaminated water needs to be removed from turbine building and then turbine building has to be decontaminated (ie. you hose it down a little). Then they will need to repair damage caused by the water to the pumps (ie. new pumps). Then they will have to restart internal cooling.
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the radiation released came from the reactor 4 cooling ponds - the area that was completely ignored, even for hours after it was on fire. Fukushima incident highlights how risks associated with complete flooding of the facility were ignored.
Finally, I cannot believe that they didn't have a manual way of turning on the steam powered cooling systems. AFAIK, in the US, these are spring loaded and activated with explosive bolts. Maybe the operators panicked and they didn't have procedures in place for scenario of complete loss of electrical power (blackout) at the plant.
Most of China's reactors that are to be built will be AP1000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP1000
Anyway, as I've said it before, the world will use nuclear power in very significant way in the next 1-2 decades. This will be either as,
1. fuel for power plants to generate electricity
2. or nuclear bombs used to fight over remains of current fossil fuel reserves.
Wars like Iraq are clear examples of "paying the price" for oil. And the situation regarding oil will just get much worse. Countries like Ukraine have plans to build additional reactors and replace their current fleet as it ages. And Ukraine has Chernobyl. Japan's economy cannot survive without nuclear power. If Japan moves away from nuclear, it will definitely move away from being a significant player in the world economy.
Economy is about energy and its easy access and secure access. We do not live in the world of Star Trek, with global superconducting power grids and easy access to space for energy collection. We live in a world where fossil fuels are running out and there needs to be a rather prompt change to alternate source.
No I did - look after the "1/" above and keep on reading instead of stopping.
Please stop pretending that such incredible laziness as you have exhibited is a virtue. It is not. Grow up and stop spreading such bullshit that you have made up when you can easily show to yourself that it is not true.
Chernobyl released a lot of Cs-137 and Sr-90 which are long-lived and particularly dangerous to human health. Fukushima have not released these, that's what the GP was talking about. I-131 is a decay product of U-235, not of any "long lived isotopes created by the fission reaction" and creation stopped at the moment the fission reaction stopped.
"That was a fair estimate at the time ..."
This was not an estimate. It was not presented as a prediction. It was given as an unequivocal declaration of fact.
"... especially compared to the totally unscientific "OMG!!1! RADIATION!" reports that were widely circulated in the media."
Two wrongs don't make a right. Put another way, adding misinformation to other misinformation only further confuses things. Put yet another way, you don't fight darkness by adding more darkness. You must add light. You must fight misinformation with accuracy and truth.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
We have radioactive particles falling all across the states. Fact.
Nearly every station that tests for radioactivity in water and milk has come up with radioactivity readings. You don't live near a nuclear facility or reactor... they're not testing your water/milk.
Have faith in the "Monitors" across the state though. Highly irrelevant to the real dangers but they _are_ showing minute elevations of background radiation. Anyone who knows what we're dealing with knows you should be shitting your pants.
But... I'm crazy and the govt is telling the truth in a nuclear accident. (For the first time ever.)
Stay Safe!
Sorry, but you can't have a hydrogen explosion in a area containing spent fuel rods and not have particles of those spent rods NOT ending up in the atmosphere and becoming riders on airborne particles.
Sure... the levels are way below what they can reliably detect.... rest assured that one particle of that is enough to make your life a misery.
Take your chances though. That's what having a choice is all about.... Right?
Fair enough, and my summary was an unfair and misleading simplification of things. Thanks for the clarification. However, the fundamental difference between Chernobyl and Fukushima Daiichi, which I should have pointed out first, is this: With Chernobyl, virtually all of the fissionable material was sent into the atmosphere because of the lack of a proper containment structure and the graphite moderator / fuel burning. Here, however, 99.9% of it is still in the containment structure.
Does having a witty signature really indicate normality?
The NEA page about Chernobyl I linked to said:
The early estimate for fuel material released to the environment was 3 ± 1.5% (IA86). This estimate was later revised to 3.5 ± 0.5% (Be91). This corresponds to the emission of 6 t of fragmented fuel.
I suppose it is possible that all the fuel was sent into the atmosphere for a moment and then 96.5% fell back down and was later covered with concrete.
After the Chernobyl accident we were assured by the nuclear industry and regulators/promoters that BWRs such as the ones at Fukushima would never release radioactivity into the environment on the scale of the Chernobyl accident because of the containment vessel. TEPCO said the Fukushima release might surpass the release at Chernobyl. I believe the post-Chernobyl reassurances were given earnestly but it is clear now they were completely wrong.
I agree with you that a major difference between Chernobyl and Fukushima is that at Chernobyl the release was almost entirely airborne while at Fukushima it is likely that a lot of the radioactivity released is leaching into the water they are pouring on to keep the reactors cool (to prevent further meltdowns and possible catastrophic hydrogen explosions). I was actually warning people about this difference over a week ago, well before the direct leak into the ocean was detected.
Today it was reported that:
... the water level of radiation-contaminated water in the tunnel-like trench at Unit 2 dropped by 4.3 cm Wednesday morning after Tepco started pumping lethally radioactive water from its flooded turbine room ...
If this is true then it is extremely troubling. It means not only that the tunnel and turbine building are connected hydrologically, it is quite possible that there has been a constant flow of highly radioactive water (HRW) from the reactor building to the turbine building to the tunnel and then into the ground. Draining the turbine building stopped the flow into the tunnel and the rate the tunnel is emptying is the rate the HRW has been constantly leaking into the ground from that tunnel.
My point is that the upward dispersal at Chernobyl made it relatively easy to assess the total amount of radioactivity released while at Fukushima, it is hard to get a reasonable upper bound on the release because they simply don't know how much HRW is leaking directly (or indirectly) into the ground nor do they know its concentration. At the very least, I imagine one would have to carefully study the hydrology of the land under the reactors and drill a bunch of core samples. It's a tough problem.
BTW the Japan Times article I linked to gave the most detailed information (I have found) about what is happening in the reactor buildings to date.
Another concern is all the radioactivity getting into the ocean. Once again, it is difficult to get a good estimate of the total amount. It was reported that fish were caught 35 km from Fukushima that had levels of radioactive Cesium 25 times above the legal limit. For humans, (and other animals), Cesium is the nasty one, especially Cesium-137. While radioactive isotopes from Chernobyl did make it into the ocean, it was never at this level. In fact, the Chernobyl release allowed us to measure the time delay between the peak of Chernobyl radioactivity in the ocean and the peak in the fish populations. For fish high on the food chain the delay was six months. So even if Fukushima instantly stopped leaking, we would still have to wait another five or six months before the radioactivity in important fish populations peaked.
IOW, I agree that Fukushima is a whole different ballgame compared to Chernobyl but I think it is way too early to know wh
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
I was wrong about iodine-131. Thank you for the correction.
OTOH, there has been a lot of cesium-137 from Fukushima detected. The levels generally track the levels of iodine-131 when both are measured. For example, the IAEA said:
On 12th April, deposition of both iodine-131 and cesium-137 was detected in 7 and 6 prefectures respectively. The values reported for iodine-131 ranged from 1.6 to 460 Bq/m2 and for cesium-137 from 31 to 700 Bq/m2. The highest deposition was observed in the Ibaraki prefecture.
There is also concern about radioactive cesium in mushrooms and in fish although I have not been able to confirm how much of this is cesium-137. In fact, trace amounts of cesium-137, assumed to be from Fukushima, have been found in milk in Hawaii and Vermont.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
There is also the possibility that you are a useless prick that has wasted far more time complaining than would have taken to read that article and every comment instead of just the obvious ones right at the top.
Is there some misguided program in schools where they teach people to tell blatant lies and then weak weasel bullshit to try to get away with it or did you learn this yourself? Burden of proof lies with me? What bullshit is that when you won't even look at what I cite and you were the one that made the unproved assertion in the first place? Do you really expect such petty little bullying tricks to be taken seriously? What is this shit of assuming that readers are vastly your intellectual inferior and won't bother to find things for themselves when you are practically unarmed in that respect yourself?
I assumed you had not read it since otherwise you are stringing out a very obvious lie for no purpose I can see other than wasting your own time.
Also get a login if you want people to take what you write seriously, logins are useful. For instance if you search on my nickname you'll find a thread I'm commenting on which is an example of what you say does not exist, which is one reason your stupid attempts at trying to convince me will never work (and nobody else is reading at this point so why bother).
I understand you think you are cheering your team, but how do you even know that I am backing a different one? Why does anything remotely associated with nuclear power bring out such stupid defensive us versus them bullshit even when we're only writing about a previous discussion?
It took a magnitude 9 earthquake plus a 14 meter tsunami to damage those old GE design reactors. And they haven't lost containment. Yet. That increases my confidence in atomic power. Sure, there's a horrible mess that has to be cleaned up. But the plant design WORKED. If this was a Russian Chernobyl-style design, reactor parts would be scattered all over the countryside.
It's a little late to be vindicated, but I am posting this to complete the record. Today April 17 more photos are released. It is much better than the earlier photos. The photos very clearly show scattered fuel rods that are not in a pool or core. After they found a rod about a mile away in a report, I knew either a reactor lost it's lid and ejected part of the core, or one of the dry well primary containment failed and the failure ejected the contents of at least one of the storage ponds contents.
Here is a link to scattered fuel rods.
http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2011/Apr/Week3/15973518.jpg
The news article is here;
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/A-Strong-Earthquake-Has-Hit-Japan-Shaking-Buildings-In-Tokyo-After-Release-Of-New-Fukushima-Photos/Article/201104315973503?lpos=World_News_First_World_News_Article_Teaser_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15973503_A_Strong_Earthquake_Has_Hit_Japan%2C_Shaking_Buildings_In_Tokyo%2C_After_Release_Of_New_Fukushima_Photos
More recent photos are here;
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/photo/2011-04/16/c_13832377.htm
The truth shall set you free!
Close up photo of the curved yellow cement on the large pipes.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/photo/2011-04/16/c_13832377_4.htm
I think this piece of cement is from the primary containment of unit #3. This low angle shot shows it is heavily reinforced. Remember the diameter of the pipes it is sitting on is about 10-12 feet each.
The truth shall set you free!