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All Languages Linked To Common Source

Old Wolf writes "A New Zealand evolutionary psychologist, Quentin Atkinson, has created a scientific sensation by claiming to have discovered the mother of all mother tongues. 'Dr Atkinson took 504 languages and plotted the number of phonemes in each (corrected for recent population growth, when significant) against the distance between the place where the language is spoken and 2,500 putative points of origin, scattered across the world (abstract). The relationship that emerges suggests the actual point of origin is in central or southern Africa, and that all modern languages do, indeed, have a common root." Reader NotSanguine points out another study which challenges the idea that the brain is more important to the structure of language than cultural evolution.

318 comments

  1. All Languages Linked To Common Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Humans!

    1. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by clang_jangle · · Score: 1

      No, Chimps! Eventually we'll confirm all technology has been fueled by "monkey see, monkey do" all along, and the human ego will deflate sufficiently to enable us to take our rightful place as just another species of great ape, albeit one that gets rather big for its britches periodically.

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    2. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by gnick · · Score: 1

      A very wise man once pronounced:

      "For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened that unleashed the power of the imagination. We learned to talk."

      Must have been Ghandi or Jesus or someone.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    3. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Lord+Juan · · Score: 1

      A very wise man once pronounced:

      "For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened that unleashed the power of the imagination. We learned to talk."

      Must have been Ghandi or Jesus or someone.

      Jesus wouldn't say "For millions of years" because he believes his father only made us 4,000 years ago.
      Wise man wouldn't say "For millions of years" because he believes we only came into existence about 200,000 years ago.

    4. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Stephen Hawking

      This is one of those cases where Google is your friend.

    5. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was Hawking contributing to a Pink Floyd song. I think GP was joking.

    6. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this is one of those cases where the person wasn't being serious but you had to be a know-it-all

    7. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by hobo+sapiens · · Score: 2

      that wasn't Hawking contributing to a Pink Floyd song. It was an old British Telecom commercial, which was sampled by Pink Floyd. The voice, of course, was Hawking.

      --
      blah blah blah
    8. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      Sure! All species equally have sent members of their own and others into space, built great telescopes to discover there are other worlds out there and to observe the CMBR and discover the origin of the universe. They have all cured many diseases and altered their environment to the point of allowing them to live pretty much anywhere on or in the Earth.

      Humans aren't special at all!

    9. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Eunuchswear · · Score: 3, Insightful

      altered their environment to the point of allowing them to live pretty much anywhere on or in the Earth.

      That'd be the green plants, you know, the ones that released huge quantities of a poisonous gas, destroying 98% of life on earth.

      Humans are pathetic by comparison.

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      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    10. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      Sure! All species equally have sent members of their own and others into space, built great telescopes to discover there are other worlds out there and to observe the CMBR and discover the origin of the universe. They have all cured many diseases and altered their environment to the point of allowing them to live pretty much anywhere on or in the Earth.

      You say that like it's a good thing.

    11. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      It's also completely wrong. The ability to talk is innate in humans. Whatever our non-talking evolutionary ancestor was, it was NOT human and unable to talk like we do today. It's not that "man" suddenly got smart and wised up one day, but rather a new, wiser species was born and was immediately able to communicate better than its precursor, even if this early language was not as efficient and full of concepts as language is today.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    12. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by hufter · · Score: 1

      Wise man wouldn't say "For millions of years" because he believes we only came into existence about 200,000 years ago.

      Depends on what you count as mankind. The first defined as Homo walked about 2.5 million years ago, and it wasn't the first ape that walked upright.

    13. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by ArcherB · · Score: 5, Insightful

      altered their environment to the point of allowing them to live pretty much anywhere on or in the Earth.

      That'd be the green plants, you know, the ones that released huge quantities of a poisonous gas, destroying 98% of life on earth.

      Humans are pathetic by comparison.

      Awesome post! Please allow me to elaborate for those that didn't get it.

      Oxygen IS pollution produced by photosynthesizing organisms. Before plants, the earths atmosphere was radically different than it is today. There was almost no free oxygen in our atmosphere. Once life began to photosynthesize for energy, oxygen was released as a byproduct of that process, just as CO2 is a byproduct of our respiration. Oxygen is actually plant pollution. That pollution killed off nearly all of the early life on earth, radically changed the climate, and gave rise to what we have today.

      So it appears that releasing gas that fundamentally changes the atmosphere is a completely natural, 100% organic function. If anything, by driving SUV's we are actually restoring our planet to it's natural, original condition before photosynthesis came along and screwed it all up!

      Eat that, GW hippies!

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    14. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not a Christian, but I somehow doubt that Jesus would really approve of some of the things that Christians spot out currently.

      Jewish folk, including back then, were very given to debating how certain passages should be interpreted and trying to not take anything for granted. I don't imagine that Jesus was any more closed-minded than the rest.

    15. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by kingramon0 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Jesus wouldn't say "For millions of years" because he believes his father only made us 4,000 years ago.

      Actually, no place in the Bible comes right out and says what the age of the Earth is. The 6000 year figure comes from some people's (weak) interpretation of some verses.

    16. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 2

      > Jesus wouldn't say "For millions of years" because he believes his father only made us 4,000 years ago.

      I was going to mod you down for ignorant but then you wouldn't know the reason why.

      At the risk of being a prick: [citation required]

    17. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, no place in the Bible comes right out and says what the age of the Earth is. The 6000 year figure comes from some people's (weak) interpretation of some verses.

      In particular, it comes from someone counting up all the "begats" in Genesis, and making the ridiculously wild assumption that those are the only people that have existed.

    18. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by cobrausn · · Score: 1

      Heh... When I read your sig all I hear in my head is 'Don't mod me down, bro!'.

      --
      How does it feel to be a liar with pants constantly on fire?
    19. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Jesus wouldn't say "For millions of years" because he believes his father only made us 4,000 years ago.

      Actually, no place in the Bible comes right out and says what the age of the Earth is. The 6000 year figure comes from some people's (weak) interpretation of some verses.

      Not even that. The 6000 year figure is from an Anglican Archbishop who had too much time on his hands, and a poor grasp of mathematics (for instance, he assumed that if someone were mentioned as dying at age 112, that that meant he died on his 112th birthday.)

      Why ANYONE would take an Anglican Archbishop's opinion as the unaltered word of God is beyond me. Though it's obvious why the militant atheists would (they think it makes the religious look dumb), though those of us who know where the figure comes from think that its use by militant atheists makes the militant atheists look dumb....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    20. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Raffaello · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The whole point of TFA is that this may well not be the case. It may well be the case that language is not the product of hard wired wetware, sometimes known as "the Language Instinct," but is rather the product of:

      1. general symbolic intelligence, i.e., thought, coupled with:

      2. the ability to make more complex sounds, due to a vocal tract modified from anthropoid ape ancestors by the shift of the relative positions of neck and head brought on by bipedalism, and:

      3. cultural transmission, i.e., the ability to pass language on to the next generation due to the long childhood dependency of humans which, in turn, came about because our large heads won't fit through the birth canal at full size, so we are all effectively born premature - unable to walk, or even effectively grasp our mother's hair and cling to her.

      Therefore, it is quite possible that once our ancestors developed sufficiently large and complex brains to think with more logical sophistication than, for example chimpanzees, we slowly over time dveloped more and more complex languages until we reached a plateau, specifically, the limit of children under the age of 6 or 7 to understand and learn the basic grammar and vocabulary of the language.

      Any increased grammatical complexity beyond this point would immediately die out since the next generation could not learn it during childhood. Once this plateau was reached, presumably in southern Africa ca. 200,000 years ago, our ancestors had the cognitive "killer app," i.e., modern human language, that allowed them to successfully radiate across the planet.

    21. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Heh... When I read your sig all I hear in my head is 'Don't mod me down, bro!'.

      Actually, I'm just tired of mods with opinions different than my own modding down because they can't think of a valid refutation to my point.

      If I troll, mod me troll. If I flame, mod it Flamebait, but there's not an "I disagree" mod for a reason.

    22. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by cobrausn · · Score: 1

      Oh, I agree. I just thought it was funny and figured I would share it with you, especially since all the 'don't tase me bro' guy did was ask questions people didn't like and he got modded down... to the floor... with a taser. Why respond as AC though? Reflex? :)

      --
      How does it feel to be a liar with pants constantly on fire?
    23. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by MBGMorden · · Score: 4, Informative

      Communication isn't "talking" though. Lots of animals can communicate - a pre-defined verbal code however is something else entirely. Also, there are plenty of documented cases where an infant was separated from human contact and never learned to talk. Here's the kicker: research of these individuals has shown that for the most part, if you don't learn to to speak before aged 5 or 6, it's a skill that simply cannot be developed. The most that these people could ever master was a few broken words.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    24. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by HungryHobo · · Score: 4, Informative

      .... you do realise that the athiests aren't the ones claiming the world is 6000 years old right?

      There's a decent number of people who genuinely believe it along with a lot of other very very silly things.

    25. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by cayenne8 · · Score: 2
      So, this location in Africa he pinpointed.

      Was it named Babel?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    26. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by jimrthy · · Score: 1

      This is nitpicking, but humans raised by animals generally don't ever (never?) learn to talk.

    27. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus wouldn't say "For millions of years" because he believes his father only made us 4,000 years ago.

      If Jesus really was the son of God, that means he knew about evolution but didn't tell us. The nerve!

    28. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      It was Hawking contributing to a Pink Floyd song. I think GP was joking.

      All and all, just another squawk on the wall.

    29. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by SilentStaid · · Score: 2

      And shortly thereafter - the rest of mankind started walking, because everyone knows the gay community is trendsetting! ...had to.

    30. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Here's the kicker: research of these individuals has shown that for the most part, if you don't learn to to speak before aged 5 or 6, it's a skill that simply cannot be developed. The most that these people could ever master was a few broken words.

      Move the age to "about 12" or "prior to puberty". There have been a few kids found at age 7 or so, who pick up language just fine.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    31. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by SilentStaid · · Score: 1

      I assure you that I mean to offend here:

      You're use of the phrase 'militant atheist' three times in a single run-on sentence makes you look dumb as well. I will admit that the first sentence did make me do a quick review of the origins of Young Earth Creationism theories, so thanks for that.

      Link for anyone interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism

    32. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 2

      A small remark ... a lot of primate species have (extremely simple) languages.

      Most animals have oral communication and are capable, at the very least, to coordinate group movements through use of sounds. A lot of mammals are capable of more complex sounds, not just primates.

    33. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Pax681 · · Score: 2

      well he is right.... it was in a pink floyd song called "keep talking"

      The words are those of Stephen Hawking speaking through his speech synthesiser. The phrases he speaks are sampled from a British Telecommunications commercial that Gilmour heard after the song was otherwise completed. Gilmour liked it so much (said it almost brought him to tears) that he asked BT if he could sample it.

      you can here it here

      the original advert can be seen and heard here

    34. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Pax681 · · Score: 1

      bugger,...... you can HEAR it...lol oops

    35. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why won't you talk to me! You never talk to me!

    36. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      There's (obviously) not a lot if literature on those kinds of kids. And one thing to consider are the obvious confounds of the probably severe emotional trauma they experienced. Those people generally pick up very very limited language ability, but never develop fluency anything like a human raised child would.

      But, from the questionable case studies of kids raised by wolfpacks, there is some evidence that the kids do learn communication meaningful to the animals that raised them, both verbal and non-verbal. I always found that very interesting.

    37. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      COBOL!

    38. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope you're joking. It was Steven Hawking, and it can be heard on the Pink Floyd song "Talk to Me" off of the album "The Division Bell."

    39. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by pyrr · · Score: 1

      In particular, it comes from someone counting up all the "begats" in Genesis, and making the ridiculously wild assumption that those are the only people that have existed.

      Actually, considering Adam is supposedly the "first human created", the "human race" IS only about a few thousand years old by that account and there are no gaps that would allow for the human race to be any older than that. The verses are rather precise about how long each patriarch lived, the age at which they did their begetting of the next patriarch in the lineage, and there really aren't that many of them so it doesn't take terribly long to count-up. On a scale of 40,000 or so years (based on mitochondrial DNA extrapolation and other dating techniques that attempt to place the dawn of the species of modern humans), a few months' worth of uncertainty because precise birthdays aren't provided simply doesn't account for the margin of disagreement between the Biblical account and scientific research.

      Now the only wobble room is that Adam was perhaps the first "racially superior" human to be created directly by his patron deity or something, but that other, inferior humans existed before and parallel to his direct lineage. Or maybe the whole narrative is metaphor and can't be taken literally, except for the verses that Christians find convenient to beat everyone else over the head with & aren't *too* full of bullshit. Not that "Bible-verses-used-as-weapons" and "utter bullshit" are mutually-exclusive...usually the two tend to come together.

      The only uncertainty in what the Holy Bible states is in the minds of the religious who are struggling to cling to their delusions and reconcile reality to them. You cannot claim that the entire Holy Bible is entirely literal, infallible, and precise but that it is also metaphorical and subject to creative interpretation at the same time. Those two conditions are, in fact, mutually exclusive.

    40. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by theBuddman · · Score: 2
    41. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by recharged95 · · Score: 1

      actually...

      Computers! (our future overlords)

      (Really, he should next cross reference all the most used computer languages... I'm sure he find something very, very interesting).

    42. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by pyrr · · Score: 1

      I really doubt human language at the dawn of our species had anything resembling the languages we use today. Human language evolved, and as the species developed, they gained increased and finer-tuned capacity to use language effectively, both from cognitive and physiological standpoints.

      What about the ability to write or otherwise record knowledge? That advancement is arguably more important to human progress than spoken language alone. Considering our species is in the neighborhood of 40,000 years old, and almost all advancements and population expansion came only after the invention of language about 7600 years ago, it would seem that there are certain critical innovations which are necessary to unleash the floodgates of knowledge and advancement. Spoken language with a certain level of complexity is one, written language that takes advantage of that complexity is another.

      At the point paintings became standardized glyphs that represented general concepts rather than being depictions of specific events, the human race began to advance at a blistering pace and hasn't looked back all that much. I'm pretty sure human hands haven't changed all that much since "mitochondrial Eve's" time. Our ancestors have had the ability to hold implements of drawing and writing for all this time, and even some of our "cousin" species probably had some potential to do so as well. Capacity to do something does not imply it's used at all, much less used to its full potential. It just means that there's a solid platform to develop from, rather than an insurmountable hurdle that precludes advancement past a certain point.

      I wouldn't be at all surprised if scientists find (if they haven't already) that domestic dogs have developed a broader range of vocalizations and perhaps even slightly more vocal ability than wolves. There's potential selection pressure for dogs to be more expressive in terms humans can better understand as they evolve with us. That doesn't mean that they're really all that different than wolves from a physiological standpoint, just that they have a different way of using some capability they already had. That also doesn't mean they are limited by that capability and can't improve on it-- evolution is always working in the background to tune-up an ability.

    43. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by fusiongyro · · Score: 1

      While we're being pedantic, let's try spelling Gandhi correctly.

    44. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by mldi · · Score: 1

      Or more accurately, The Ancients!

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    45. Re:All Languages Linked To Common Source by Karsten+Deppert · · Score: 1

      This sounds fair. Being able to read and write clearly isn't an instinct, so it might just be that talking is just something we learn because we have the capabilities to do so... Makes you wonder what else there might be that we simply haven't "discovered" yet!

  2. Patent nonsense. by Eunuchswear · · Score: 5, Funny

    Everybody knows the original language is English, as used by God to write the Bible.

    --
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    1. Re:Patent nonsense. by clang_jangle · · Score: 1

      "If the King James Bible is good enough for Jee-sus, it's good enough for me!"

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
    2. Re:Patent nonsense. by Zeek40 · · Score: 3, Funny

      All the Jesuses I know read around Spanish language versions of the bible, not English.

    3. Re:Patent nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, how ethnocentric of you. The English bible really lost a lot in translation. You should really read it in the original Klingon.

    4. Re:Patent nonsense. by englishknnigits · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Based on this post I think they were probably right in modding it flamebait. If someone doesn't like your "joke" then you shouldn't get mad, just shrug it off. If you get this worked up about it then there is something more going on and you probably are a troll.

    5. Re:Patent nonsense. by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      So the first moderator to reach it had a fringe opinion about it. Relax, that happens, it was fixed soon enough. Go outside and enjoy some fresh air and sunlight, it will be good for you, trust me!

    6. Re:Patent nonsense. by dingo_kinznerhook · · Score: 0

      This would be flamebait if there were someone on Slashdot that took offense to it and responded in kind. Whoever edited the Wikipedia article last defines "flamebait" to be "hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users." GP and P would be insulting to folks that believe in the Bible; there are just none of them here to interact about language and Biblical manuscripts.

      --
      "God does not play Minecraft with the world." - Albert Einstein
    7. Re:Patent nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know you're just trying to troll but original manuscripts are written mostly in Hewbrew and Greek.

    8. Re:Patent nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I realize that the above poster was probably saying that in jest. Most scholars tend to agree that the bible was originally written in greek, hebrew, and aramaic, the single language that any specific part was originally written in depending on the alleged author and time period associated with the part being examined. The original manuscripts themselves are unavailable, but there exists documents that are very old (some are over 2 thousand years old) and are believed to reflect the original languages that those sections were written in, which are available for study. Recently, high resolution photographs of them have been preserved in a digital form so that they can be studied by a wider group of people.

      I make no claim about the veracity of the bible as a whole, but it's fairly unlikely that, if the assumptions about the original languages that it was written in are correct, the bible is wrought with errors in translation, as is quite commonly believed.

    9. Re:Patent nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering all the discussion going on about this, I'll respond. If I lose my mod points, so be it.

      No insult was meant in the flamebait mod. I don't buy creationism, I think its a silly myth. You may notice that one of the first things to happen in any story tagged 'evolution' is a creationism v. evolution flamewar. These are nearly impossible to moderate, and really tiresome to read through, and seem to happen every single time I ever get mod points. Was merely trying to prevent it from happening here, as this article had a lot of potential for otherwise interesting discussion, as is currently happening in a few threads below this one.

      In retrospect, I may have jumped the gun on this one, as at first read it looked more like a flamebait attempt than an attempt at a joke. Looking again, the choice of 'English' instead of 'Latin' or 'Hebrew' or 'Greek' gives a clearer indication of the tone of the post. I don't really find it funny, as I have seen every variation of this joke in every evolution thread ever, but it may not have been flamebait. This is backed up by the fact that nobody has yet to respond to it as such.

      Hope that sheds some light on why the mod happened.

    10. Re:Patent nonsense. by Zeek40 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Jesus Gonzales, Jesus Guardarez and Jesus Alvaraz all confirm, they read a Spanish bible.

    11. Re:Patent nonsense. by ArcherB · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Somebody modded this "flamebait".

      Slashdot has reached a new low point, we have to pander to the feelings of the know-nothings.

      Are you complaining that someone got offended at your joke that was meant to offend? Basically, what you did was equivalent to telling a racial joke with members of %race% in the crowd and then bitching because some of them booed you. I do agree with you that the moderation was incorrect. I think "Troll" would be a more accurate mod.

      With that said, I thought the joke was mildly funny and took little offense to it. Although, I found the response to your post about Jesuses reading The Bible in Spanish was much better.

      I do take offense to your calling Christians "know-nothings", however. There have been many posts here about renowned scientists who were actually Christians as well. Look up who first theorized the Big Bang for just one example. Louis Pascal was another. You can Google for more if you wish to open your mind a bit. Information is the fist step in curing your bigotry.

      Finally, if you truly believe that Christians are "know-nothings", I find it incredibly offensive that you would make a joke about them. If you truly believe that Christians are "know-nothings", then ridiculing them would be on par with making fun of the Special Olympics. Very low class of you.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    12. Re:Patent nonsense. by Eunuchswear · · Score: 0

      I do take offense to your calling Christians "know-nothings",

      I didn't call Christians know nothings.

      I called people who believe the bible was written in English know-nothings. Do you claim they are not?

      Finally, if you truly believe that Christians are "know-nothings", I find it incredibly offensive that you would make a joke about them. If you truly believe that Christians are "know-nothings", then ridiculing them would be on par with making fun of the Special Olympics. Very low class of you.

      People who believe untrue things for political reasons should not be compared to people who are disabled, It is incredibly insulting to the disabled.

      --
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    13. Re:Patent nonsense. by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      The book "misquoting jesus" is about deviations from the original text of the new testament.

      Most of it is intentional to make other early christian sects look less supported, and much of it is transcription errors.

      Ancient greek had not puntioation or spaces, so penis land and pen island would look the same.

      --
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    14. Re:Patent nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently people that disagree with you are know-nothings. You are clearly trolling here.

    15. Re:Patent nonsense. by Eunuchswear · · Score: 0

      GP and P would be insulting to folks that believe in the Bible;

      No, to people who believe that the Bible was written in English, i.e. to people who don't believe in the Bible.

      --
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    16. Re:Patent nonsense. by Eunuchswear · · Score: 0

      It was modded "flamebait", not "I disagree".

      Who would want to flame in reply to a silly joke like that? Someone who felt hurt that I was mocking their belief that the Bible was written in English? Someone who is embarrassed that such people exist and would rather we didn't draw attention to them?

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    17. Re:Patent nonsense. by cobrausn · · Score: 1

      Note to self: cancel family vacation to Pen Island...

      --
      How does it feel to be a liar with pants constantly on fire?
    18. Re:Patent nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always thought it odd that Hey Zeus! read the Christian bible.

    19. Re:Patent nonsense. by rebot777 · · Score: 1

      I'm catholic you insensitive clod! Clearly the bible was written in Latin by God!

    20. Re:Patent nonsense. by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      Jesus Gonzales, Jesus Guardarez and Jesus Alvaraz all confirm, they read a Spanish bible.

      What about James Jesus Angleton?

    21. Re:Patent nonsense. by CODiNE · · Score: 1

      Those people actually exist. Seriously... it's like they don't even know what B.C. and A.D. stand for. 1611 KJV handwritten by Jesus himself... it's hard to believe they've read the Bible at all when they think that kind of thing.

      Whenever one of them starts bugging me I just ask if they believe in Unicorns. When they inevitably say that they DON'T... I show them where the KJV uses the word unicorn several times.

      It's because of the hebrew word rheem which they didn't understand in 1611. Some kind of strong animal... huh... must be those unicorns we've heard of! Later on it was found out that rheem is an auroch.

      --
      Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
    22. Re:Patent nonsense. by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      I didn't call Christians know nothings.

      I called people who believe the bible was written in English know-nothings. Do you claim they are not?

      Fair enough.

      People who believe untrue things for political reasons should not be compared to people who are disabled, It is incredibly insulting to the disabled.

      People believe for many reasons. For some people, faith is based on purely logical reasons. Some people believe as they were raised and think that even considering for a second that their beliefs are wrong will sentence them to an eternity in hell. As I mentioned earlier, many who made the most scientifically significant discoveries and theories have been people of faith. Some of the best logical philosophers throughout history have debated this, and both sides make perfectly logical, well reasoned arguments. Whichever side you believe is up to you. No one believes in a religion for political purposes, however, many pretend to believe to advantage of those that truly do.

      Oh, and I see you got modded back up. Good!

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    23. Re:Patent nonsense. by Terrasque · · Score: 1

      A few examples:

      http://notalwaysright.com/has-faith-but-lost-all-pope/10629

      http://notalwaysright.com/because-aramaic-is-sooo-last-millenium/2005

      http://notalwaysright.com/heal-the-blind-raise-the-dead-now-a-book-deal/1763

      Small warning: If you have never worked as customer service person, then reading that site might shatter your faith in humanity.

      --
      It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
    24. Re:Patent nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you mean Jewbrew?

    25. Re:Patent nonsense. by amber_of_luxor · · Score: 1

      The Tanakh was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.

      There is a small group that thinks that the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic. The supporting evidence is that some books in the NT might have originally been written in Aramaic. Some books (2 John, 3 John, Revelation) clearly were not originally written in Aramaic.

      A much smaller group claims that the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) were originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and Latin.

      --
      Wind Beneath Thy Wings
    26. Re:Patent nonsense. by CODiNE · · Score: 1

      Painful.

      --
      Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
    27. Re:Patent nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet the Bible, which we're taught never changes, was first printed in German. God must have been German; Gutenberg proved it!

    28. Re:Patent nonsense. by dingo_kinznerhook · · Score: 0

      Point taken. My first impression was that GGGP was caricaturing all Bible-believing folks, but he was really only caricaturing a subclass of those.

      --
      "God does not play Minecraft with the world." - Albert Einstein
    29. Re:Patent nonsense. by Israfels · · Score: 1

      Why'd you have to troll first-post. Just say "first post" if you don't have anything useful to say.

    30. Re:Patent nonsense. by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      As I mentioned earlier, many who made the most scientifically significant discoveries and theories have been people of faith.

      Well, to be fair, until recently there wasn't really a good option otherwise. I mean, Galileo believed in special creation of the world, because there wasn't yet any reasonable explanation for how things got here. Now there is.

      It's like when people point to the US Declaration of Independence "that they are endowed by their Creator..." first of all, all of the nouns are capitalized, so the capitalization of "Creator" is evidence of nothing. Second of all, they didn't say "God" they rather used an arbitrary term "Creator"... think about it, when the document was drafted no one had a good idea that evolution existed, or what the origin of species were... we were simply left with "something, or someone created the universe." It was the only plausible explanation at the time given their limited understandings.

      So, pointing out that people who made scientific discoveries in the past were religious is kind of moot... they had no viable alternate hypothesis...

      --
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    31. Re:Patent nonsense. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      Between December 1974 and her death in March 1982, Ayn Rand collected a total of $11,002 in Social Security payments.

      Now you know why Republicans keep advocating for low taxes but not for no taxes. They want to be able to say in the future while living on government dole, "yeah, but back in 1993 I paid 2 whole dollars and 32 red cents in taxes, buddy. I have earned what is comin' to me. It is them welfare queens who are the leeches of the society."

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    32. Re:Patent nonsense. by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      I know you like to think that all people who believe in God are ignorant and/or stupid.

      HERE

      Sorry, but the facts do not back you up. From what I can tell, there are brilliant people on both sides of the issue.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    33. Re:Patent nonsense. by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      I am not arguing that "people of faith" are not intelligent or anything. My argument is that the vast majority of "the most scientifically significant discoveries and theories" were discovered at a time when there was no reason to warrant disbelief in gods. Naturally, it was possible for people to disbelieve in gods prior to an understanding of the origin of species, and the origins of the galaxies, solar systems and planets... but one was left with an enormous gap of "I don't know" around where the universe came from, why things look the way that they do.

      In more recent (but not modern) times, those people who would be inclined in our times to be atheist, professed "Deism", that a god existed, but we don't know anything about him. Specifically, they rejected the Christian conception of a god, but could not get around the looming issue of, "Oh yeah? Well, where did the universe come from?" Their answer was as close to the null-hypothesis as was possible at the time: "Something supernatural created the universe, but we don't, and cannot know anything about the nature of such a deity."

      The necessity of a god in these earlier times was apparent, as no explanation was conceivable for the universe other than that of supernatural creation.

      So, looking back on the people of faith that discovered incredible scientific principles, one must ask the question not "were they people of faith," because prior to about the 1900s or so, everyone believed in a god. Rather, one should ask oneself "If they were born in this age, with our knowledge... would they still be people of faith?" The answers for many Deists is most likely a resounding "no".

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    34. Re:Patent nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "t's like when people point to the US Declaration of Independence "that they are endowed by their Creator..." first of all, all of the nouns are capitalized, so the capitalization of "Creator" is evidence of nothing. Second of all, they didn't say "God" they rather used an arbitrary term "Creator"... think about it, when the document was drafted no one had a good idea that evolution existed, or what the origin of species were... we were simply left with "something, or someone created the universe." It was the only plausible explanation at the time given their limited understandings."

      No, you're looking at Thomas Jefferson being clever. While the Glorious Revolution had removed from the English monarchy the schizophrenic babbling of "divine right of kings" this was still recent enough to just barely be in living memory. Even then many monarchs still pretended to rule by "divine right." The English Monarchs for their part were not only the head of the Anglican church (at the time very common in the 13 colonies of course), but also included quite a bit of extraneous God-bothering in the Coronation Oath of 1688. Jefferson possessing a mind born of the Enlightenment and being a deist in addition simply wrote what was obvious: all men are endowed with rights by their creator (whoever/whatever that is) and not some inbred upper crust layabout with delusions of grandeur. Personally I hope in my lifetime to finally see an atheist/agnostic/deist/pantheist president sworn in on Jefferson's Bible. I hope the fundies are all hooked up to turbines because it would be a shame to miss out on the potential power generated from so many heads spinning. The turbines will have to be waterproof of course for all the foaming at the mouth, but damn will it be fun.

    35. Re:Patent nonsense. by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      No, you're looking at Thomas Jefferson being clever.

      You say "no", but then you proceed to state everything that I agree with, and nothing that contradicts what I said.

      My point was that a lot of deists were deists of the time, because there wasn't a competing model to creation. They were humanists and naturalists of the highest order that atheists hold to today... but there was no naturalistic explanation for the origins of the universe or the diversity of animals. At the time, it was obvious that there was a creator (whoever/whatever that was) because there is stuff.

      Essentially, deists of the day had pushed god back as far into the gaps that were available, but the gaps yet remained large enough for a god to hide in... now, with our naturalistic explanations some of us can push the gaps back far enough that nothing worth calling a god could hide in...

      As a good analogy, the fact that Newton failed to ever believe in Relativity is not a mark against Relativity... but rather simply the obvious result of Newton living prior to the discover of Relativity. He died (most likely) of mercury poisoning not because he was a retarded idiot, but because human kind itself did not understand the dangers of mercury in his time. One cannot fault the ignorance of a person when such ignorance was inescapable for their time.

      In the same way, saying many scientific discoveries were made by people of faith says nothing about the worthiness of that faith... the ancient Greek philosophers knew the world was round (more specifically spherical), and calculated its circumference better than Christopher Columbus had... yet this lends no credence to the Greek gods, which were the only available "faith" of the time.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    36. Re:Patent nonsense. by Cardhu · · Score: 1

      I'm catholic you insensitive clod! Clearly the bible was written in Latin by God!

      I can't tell if this is a joke or serious. If serious, it is seriously ignorant.

      The original books of the Old Testament were written in either Hebrew or Aramaic. The original books of the New Testament were written in Koine (common) Greek. The Bible was not translated into Latin until the 4th Century AD:

      http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_original_languages_the_Bible_was_written_in

      --
      - Cardhu
  3. But by zero.kalvin · · Score: 1

    What about that other research that was done a while ago, that confirmed that not all languages follow the same mental rules ? Or maybe that came later ? My memory on this is a bit sketchy, but it is interesting to see if these 2 findings can influence the result of the other.

    1. Re:But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Exactly, this finding smacks of defusionism. The same bent logic that ponders if the ancient Egyptians and Maya shared a "mother" society because they both built pyramidal structures.

      Isn't it more interesting, more human, that language could develop as an evolutionary function and not a societal one.

    2. Re:But by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Finding the mother tongue in this linguistic equivalent to cold fusion. Plenty of whackjobs and fraudsters claim to find it, but soon enough the cold heart light of reality shines in and reveals it's a load of nonsense.

      If there was a mother tongue, it's likely buried so deep in the past as to be impossible to find. We're talking over 100,000 years ago. That so much time for substantial changes, even one generation innovations, that the exercise is pointless. Even more "moderate" theories like Nostratic, which mainly just wants so desperately to unite the Eurasian families, quickly reveals itself to be as much wishful thinking as actual science.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:But by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Considering that toddlers quickly lose the ability to perceive alien phonemes, this isn't such a bad idea really.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    4. Re:But by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      My own universal knowledge of things tells me that what really set us apart is an over developed imagination. Not conscience of self, language or opposed thumbs.

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    5. Re:But by MrHanky · · Score: 0

      How is one more "interesting" and "human" than the other?

      Of course there can be an evolutionary explanation for the development of language as well as historical and linguistic explanations, but evolution clearly does not explain the variety of languages, as humans of all races seem to be able to learn completely different languages. Evolution tells you about the development of the human larynx. Sure, "interesting", but it really says fuck all about language as such. I find your statement smacking of hard science fanboyism, which is just another form of anti-intellectualism.

    6. Re:But by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Finding the mother tongue in this linguistic equivalent to cold fusion.

      Pretty much. This study doesn't even really seem to purpose a Proto-World, but rather just simply suggest that one existed, and it was likely from Africa... this is generally well accepted beliefs in linguistics already. We imagine that there was likely an original language, but we can't find or learn any evidence about it. Our inductive techniques for linking languages together reliably begins failing relatively recently in history...

      So um... kudos? To this guy for "proving" what nearly every linguist thinks likely was the case already...

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    7. Re:But by Zenaku · · Score: 2

      You seem uncertain as to whether kudos are truly in order, but I'd say they are. Your are right to put "proving" in quotation marks, but providing meaningful evidence in support of a hypothesis that is so far only "thought likely to be true" is valuable science.

      --
      If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
    8. Re:But by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      You seem uncertain as to whether kudos are truly in order, but I'd say they are. Your are right to put "proving" in quotation marks, but providing meaningful evidence in support of a hypothesis that is so far only "thought likely to be true" is valuable science.

      But the "evidence" is a statistical joke and it is based on patent assumptions about language evolution... There is a lot of stuff that would have be proved before this paper even has the strength of "evidence"... right now, it's not really much better than most of the fringe notions of language, like Germanic substrate hypothesis, and the putative relationship between Korean and Japanese.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    9. Re:But by Zenaku · · Score: 1

      Great! So challenge those assumptions and discuss the flaws in the methodology, and meanwhile, hopefully, people will be seeking evidence for or against all that other "stuff" that would have to be proved to give this paper any weight. That's science and it's beautiful.

      It is better to have explored this argument and rejected it as without merit than to have not considered it at all. It doesn't have to be remotely right to be valuable.

      --
      If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
    10. Re:But by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      It is better to have explored this argument and rejected it as without merit than to have not considered it at all. It doesn't have to be remotely right to be valuable.

      EXACTLY... I don't know if this "evidence" will be useful in the future or not, so I don't know whether or not to give the author kudos... in fact, I'm more on the skeptical side of withholding any kudos until he can prove his methodology, because it seems fringe.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    11. Re:But by bkaul01 · · Score: 1

      Something along those lines is discussed in the linked Economist article.

    12. Re:But by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      I don't think you're far off. What sets us apart (based on my read of the literature) is our capacity for abstract mental representation. We have this capacity to understand the link between an otherwise arbitrary verbal utterance and an actual physical item. Most animals have the ability to communicate, but for many species it is that they have a common understanding of the noises make when they are hungry, scared, or want sex. We have the ability to use arbitrary references to items, actions, or concepts when we are not able to actually perceive them. That allows us to use language and be imaginative.

  4. Not what the Bible says. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Re:Not what the Bible says. by MozeeToby · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So... you're saying that according to the bible there was a point when everyone on the planet spoke the same language and then something changed and different languages developed. Ignoring details like time, location, towers to heaven, and god's holy wrath; I'd say the bible got the broad strokes of the truth right, even if only by accident.

    2. Re:Not what the Bible says. by aepervius · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      "I'd say the bible got the broad strokes of the truth right, even if only by accident."

      Yeah and my grand father clock (a monster about 1m50 high with a pendulum) is broken. It is giving the correct time twice a day. But to know the correct hour time any time during the day, I use the tool appropriated for this : a working clock.

      To go back to your "bible" stuff : the problem is not that there is *some* element which were taken from the history or are accidentally true (the hour correct twice a day). The problem is that they are indistinguishable from the rest of the cruft (the rest of the hour in the day). Which is mostly why the bible as a whole , is a terrible morality , historical or archeological guide.

      --
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      http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
      visit randi.org
    3. Re:Not what the Bible says. by mdarksbane · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's as useful as a historical/archeological guide as any set of mythologies. The advantage is that this particular one is incredibly well-preserved.

    4. Re:Not what the Bible says. by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      ...History became legend. Legend became myth.... LoTR

      Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
  5. Here's to human unity by Compaqt · · Score: 2

    OK, this'll sound corny, but here goes:

    People are divided up into all sorts of races/subraces/cultures/subcultures. As humanity has developed people have "specialized" into straight hair/curly hair/kinky hair, big/small noses, different colors, etc. But all evidence available so far seems to indicate a common genetic (and now linguistic) origin of man.

    Hopefully, we'll be able to get our act together and stop blowing each other up (and also unite against a common enemy - government/power elites).

    --
    I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    1. Re:Here's to human unity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      I wouldn't read too much into it.

      We also share a common genetic origin with mushrooms.

    2. Re:Here's to human unity by gnick · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hopefully, we'll be able to get our act together and stop blowing each other up (and also unite against a common enemy - government/power elites).

      Just because two people share some distant, obscure ancestor doesn't mean they won't try to kill each other. Heck, even if they share the same parents it doesn't always stop them. If we want people to stop blowing each other up, unfortunately we need something better than family ties.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    3. Re:Here's to human unity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well if we kill them first, they won't be able to kill each other, or us for that matter.

    4. Re:Here's to human unity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if we want people to stop blowing each other up, we need unlimited everything.

      the reason people kill each other is because there's not enough everything everywhere to go around. so when someone wants or needs something they can't get (territory, food, raw materials, luxuries), they have to take it.

      that begins the cycle, to be repeated forever.

    5. Re:Here's to human unity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well if we kill them first, they won't be able to kill each other, or us for that matter.

      That's a little extreme. We'll probably get the same result if we just check their IDs and X-ray their shoes.

    6. Re:Here's to human unity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Blowing each other up is perfectly natural for us. It is how natural selection works with us. Animals fight for dominance and resources too. The only difference is that we have no predators, at least not of another species, yet. Therefore, 'blowing each other up' is the only way we make our species stronger and control our populations. If conquering aliens ever show up, you'll be glad we've had some practice. As for the 'common enemy' being 'government/power elites'...that won't happen until we are once again One Race/One Government.

      With all of that said, 'Human Unity' makes little sense. Tribal, Cultural, or National Unity makes more sense.

    7. Re:Here's to human unity by Kjella · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what the logic you're trying to apply here is. That we have a common origin doesn't mean that we at any point have been united, since the first sibling rivalry we've fought man against man - and monkey against monkey before that, tribe against tribe, city against city, nation against nation, empire against empire. The strong have survived, the weak have been eradicated. When we've stood together it is usually because outside forces have threatened us all, an alliance of need not unity.

      Hopefully, we'll be able to get our act together and stop blowing each other up (and also unite against a common enemy - government/power elites).

      I don't see how, because I feel less and less kinship with those around me. In my immediate proximity there's almost no one with the same ethnic, cultural or religious background as me and the immigrants are equally divided among themselves. There's no "we" of any sense beyond us all being human beings, which is of course in some sense a good thing but as a united force standing up to governments and corporations I don't think so. If there's no "we", there's very little solidarity - people willing to stand up for others, people willing to lead, people willing to sacrifice. Here in Norway we just had a big scandal with enlisted men running and hiding when they thought they were ordered to defend against an armed assault without anyone telling them it was a drill, they had no intention of dying for king and country. During war they'd be up for a court-martial for treason, that's for sure.

      I think Europe is heading the same way as the US, everyone for themselves. Fuck unions, fuck social programs, fuck getting politically involved and trying to change society I want what's mine and the rest can fend for themselves. That's like an open playground for organized elites, a population easily divided and conquered. Even the good that does happen like universal healthcare is so corrupted by the time it gets through the system it ends up bad, a boon to the health insurance industry rather than savings for an extremely overpriced healthcare that is far more expensive per capita than comparable countries. It's easy to control three hundred million ants when everyone wants to do their own thing.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    8. Re:Here's to human unity by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I can think of many reasons for killing each other:
      - Basic needs (I.e. eating)
      - Competition for resources
      - Lack of punishment
      - Lack of gratification for cooperating
      - Jealousy
      - Desire
      - Ego trip ...

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    9. Re:Here's to human unity by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Just because two people share some distant, obscure ancestor doesn't mean they won't try to kill each other. Heck, even if they share the same parents it doesn't always stop them.

      I'm just imagining how much trouble could have been prevented if Abraham had just said to Ishmael and Isaac "If you don't stop bickering I'm going to pull this camel over right now!"

      As far as how to stop people from blowing each other up, the only way I can think of is to run out of explosives, although you can also limit things by convincing the top leadership of any group considering blowing something up that it is their solemn duty to go serve in the front lines. This would especially take care of groups that specialize in suicide bombings, but would also make it harder for a president or senator to be so casually gung-ho about starting wars.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    10. Re:Here's to human unity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and some have mushrooms that are bigger and longer then the others ...

    11. Re:Here's to human unity by aekafan · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't hold my breath for it if I were you. Once man determines to really stop blowing each other up, he is no longer man. Killing is our nature.

    12. Re:Here's to human unity by charlesj68 · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't read too much into it.

      We also share a common genetic origin with mushrooms.

      Which explains our common tolerance for bull

    13. Re:Here's to human unity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That explains my brother.

    14. Re:Here's to human unity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And in some cases, the same family roots is the cause of people trying to kill each other. Look at the Jews and Muslims, both trying to claim birthright to their distant ancestor, Abraham.

    15. Re:Here's to human unity by cobrausn · · Score: 1

      Not just in our nature - it's pretty much in all of nature. Even some herbivores look 'peaceful' until they kill each other over a mate. Ever seen giraffes fight?

      --
      How does it feel to be a liar with pants constantly on fire?
    16. Re:Here's to human unity by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      The story of Cain and Abel sums it up pretty well. From the very beginning I might add.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    17. Re:Here's to human unity by Dunega · · Score: 1

      No... but I have seen what two of those twist and turn straws look like when they get tangled up, I'd imagine the giraffes are similar. :)

    18. Re:Here's to human unity by jimrthy · · Score: 1

      Pretty much by definition, ants don't want to do their own thing.

      The "open playground for organized elites" happens when people start trusting others with power and sacrificing freedom for safety or (worse yet) convenience.

    19. Re:Here's to human unity by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      But all evidence available so far seems to indicate a common genetic (and now linguistic) origin of man.

      They don't often drink beer, but when they do they drink Dos Equis.

    20. Re:Here's to human unity by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Okay, you're not paying attention ...

      Gen 4:8 KJV - And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.*

      People kill each other. It doesn't matter why. QED

        *Yes, quoted bible for illustrative purposes, showing the problem of people killing each has been happening for a very long time. It isn't the overly simplistic racist thinking of the parent.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    21. Re:Here's to human unity by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Hopefully, we'll be able to get our act together and stop blowing each other up

      We also share a common genetic origin with mushrooms.

      Which is why mushroom clouds are the natural way of blowing each other up.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    22. Re:Here's to human unity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't read too much into it.

      We also share a common genetic origin with mushrooms.

      We eat mushrooms, but still government regulations are in place for that.

    23. Re:Here's to human unity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have way more in common with than you think.

      So I guess are more like mushrooms in your view.

      Got it.

    24. Re:Here's to human unity by Urkki · · Score: 1

      Hopefully, we'll be able to get our act together and stop blowing each other up (and also unite against a common enemy - government/power elites).

      Indeed, because government/power elites are not people. Except biologically of course, but otherwise, they're clearly a different group, and once we get rid of them, the true, real people can unite!

    25. Re:Here's to human unity by Urkki · · Score: 1

      If we want people to stop blowing each other up, unfortunately we need something better than family ties.

      I think nuclear weapons have worked surprisingly well. In the past 50 or so years, the nations with nuclear weapons have almost completely stopped blowing each others up.

      So, logically, if we give a nuclear weapon to everybody, everybody will stop blowing up everybody else. Well, except the few nutcases, but nuclear weapons will solve this too: anybody crazy enough to use them will be removed by natural selection very quickly, together with people close to them, who are likely to share same crazy genes.

  6. So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by thomasdz · · Score: 4, Funny

    I didn't RTFA since, after all, I am on Slashdot.... but I didn't realize that Fortran & C were both part of the Algol language family.

    --
    Karma: Excellent. 15 moderator points expire sometime.
    1. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by TWX · · Score: 2

      But they clearly are not derived from the mother tongue, they *must* have been written by aliens.

      Have you seen the syntax they expect? We're being sabotaged, I tell you!

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    2. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't RTFA since, after all, I am on Slashdot.... but I didn't realize that Fortran & C were both part of the Algol language family.

      Yes, apparently linguists have compiled them all, and found that they are all just fancy, inefficient ways of expressing assembly. Which any first-year computer science student could have told them, but the social science people are apparently in awe of the discovery.

    3. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by gnick · · Score: 2

      I didn't RTFA since, after all, I am on Slashdot.... but I didn't realize that Fortran & C were both part of the Algol language family.

      Nope, Algol is a descendent from FORTRAN loins. Here's a nifty graphic describing the family tree:
      http://www.levenez.com/lang/lang_letter.pdf

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    4. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      No, Fortran and Algol are clearly evidence of separate evolution (I mean, Algol, the name isn't a clue?).

      C is interesting, it's proof of the alien hybridisation conspiracy, after the catastrophe of PL/1 they finally came up with something thats almost viable.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    5. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Levenez is a Johnny come lately.

      Go back to the original scripture of Jean Sammet: "Computer Languages: History and Fundamentals" for the lowdown.

      Notice that Levenez doesn't have Autocode (1952) in a spurious attempt to bolster the FORTRAN heresy.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    6. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by AHuxley · · Score: 1
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      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    7. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      Sorry, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Zuse wrote a high-level programming language called "Plan Calculus"

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    8. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by c0lo · · Score: 1

      I didn't RTFA since, after all, I am on Slashdot.... but I didn't realize that Fortran & C were both part of the Algol language family.

      Why, yes! Of course they are related. And Common Lisp is the mother of all.

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    9. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First time I read the title I thought it said "all languages linked to open source"

    10. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      That's a great diagram. I shows that there were only nine ancestral languages: FORTRAN, LISP, SNOBOL, COBOL (actually B-O), JOSS, PROLOG, ML, FORTH, and sh. I actually feel lucky to have programmed in eight of those and, if someone could come up with a JOSS implementation, I could brag about all nine.

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    11. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      What's the basis for claiming that Algol descends from FORTRAN? Sure, they're both imperative structured languages, but that's about it. Given that the first FORTRAN compiler appeared less than a year before Algol conference, I find it dubious that there is clear descent. Some minor influence, perhaps.

    12. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by amper · · Score: 2

      Of course all programming languages came from alien sources. All our computing technology came from outer space. Otherwise, how could Jeff Goldblum have written a virus and uploaded it to the alien mothership, thereby saving the entire human race?

    13. Re:So BASIC, C, and Lisp are all related? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they clearly are not derived from the mother tongue, they *must* have been written by aliens.

      Have you seen the syntax they expect? We're being sabotaged, I tell you!

      So vim vs emacs wars are just a conspiracy?

  7. language by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Funny

    that great spark of power, that has propelled mankind from fetid caves, cruel and dark,

    to chariots, to sailing ships, to steam locomotives, to automobiles, to jet engines, to the moon...

    and eventually to fetid internet comment boards, cruel and dark

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    1. Re:language by game+kid · · Score: 1

      In short, roughly, this picture.

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      You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
  8. Phoneme counts by Dan+East · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I read this earlier, and at first glance it's counter-intuitive. Why would older languages have more phonemes and not less? That's a lot more sounds to have to learn and be able to physically reproduce. I presume the extra physical difficulty was a substitute for the extra intelligence required to couple many phonemes together to make new meanings. So perhaps a single utterance was used to mean food, another sound for sleep, etc, so that each phoneme meant just one thing? Then it was small step to take the phoneme for food, add a hand gesture to it and that meant eat. Eventually that gesture was replaced with another phoneme, thus you had two phonemes combined like "food + action" meaning to eat. As humans became more intelligent they ditched the hard to produce sounds and used groups of easier to product phonemes instead? I'm not a linguist and the article doesn't talk about any of this sort of thing, but it makes sense to me.

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    1. Re:Phoneme counts by welcher · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The number of phonemes in a language has nothing to do with intelligence. In theory, the more modern languages have fewer phonemes because of the "founder effect". If you think about this in terms of vocabulary, it is obvious -- no-one knows all the words in any language, so if a small group set off to start their own colony, the language of that colony won't have the words that none of the founders knew. New words may be invented to substitute for the missing words but they will be different. It is the same with sounds (and genetic diversity, where this was first observed). Since new sound formation is a very slow process, the signal remains for a long time.

    2. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 5, Informative

      I read this earlier, and at first glance it's counter-intuitive. Why would older languages have more phonemes and not less?

      This is a good question and in fact it's right on the money as a way to argue against this study. Languages change, this is true, but they don't change in a monotonic way. Some languages gain phonemes, some languages lose phonemes. That's how linguistic change works. In the same way, some languages have a complex synthetic syntax, and some have a relatively simple creole-like isolating syntax. When languages become too simplified, children learning the language create novel complications to fill out niches.

      As an example Hungarian has only about 11 irregular verbs, but this is because their verb system is complex and unwieldy, meanwhile English with its incredibly simple verbal patterns has numerous (and in fact no single authoritative count) of irregular verbs.

      Chinese has a limited syllable construction pattern, and as a result has picked up tones to make distinctions between words, while Japanese with a similarly limited syllable construction pattern uses longer words, and Hawai'ian with even more strict syllable construction rules and phonemes has gone for yet longer words. (I was surprised to realize that "Meli Kalikimaka" is literally "Merry Christmas" pounded into the strict Hawai'ian phonemic rules.)

      So, while I think his ideas might have interest, and could be intriguing, there is also the fundamental problem that he's making a deep assumption of monotonic language "growth" that is not supported by reality. I imagine it's similar to measuring which animal has more evolutionary change by it having more teeth. But everyone wants to be the person to prove that all the world languages are related, right?

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    3. Re:Phoneme counts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the same reason that Mahjong is more complicated than dominoes or cards? Give bored housewives a millenia or two to think up new ways to entertain themselves, and they'll get quite creative indeed. (Alternatively, blame bored teenagers.)

    4. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 4, Informative

      The number of phonemes in a language has nothing to do with intelligence. In theory, the more modern languages have fewer phonemes because of the "founder effect". If you think about this in terms of vocabulary, it is obvious -- no-one knows all the words in any language, so if a small group set off to start their own colony, the language of that colony won't have the words that none of the founders knew. New words may be invented to substitute for the missing words but they will be different. It is the same with sounds (and genetic diversity, where this was first observed). Since new sound formation is a very slow process, the signal remains for a long time.

      Your argument for the founder effect works for words, but not necessarily for phonemes. In order for a phoneme to be dropped by founder effect, the phoneme would have to occur in none of the words that the founders brought over. The idea of a phoneme rare enough in a vocabulary large enough for use by a small colony seems unlikely...

      Plus, the Scandanavian languages lost the interdental fricative, while the colony of Iceland kept the interdental fricative... poor standing for your "founder effect" notion...

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    5. Re:Phoneme counts by Dan+East · · Score: 1

      I realize that the number of phonemes doesn't have anything to do with intelligence, but what I'm talking about is the formation of a language from nothing. The simplest possible spoken language would be a single phoneme per meaning, correct? Thus the number of meanings, or words, you can produce are restricted to the number of phonemes sounds that can be physically produced. Thus you would be creating as many unique sounds as possible to be able to express the maximum number of meanings, which is why the earliest languages had a huge number of phonemes. It's about complexity. The complexity can either lie in the physical production of sounds, or in the combination of multiple sounds together. The former is a physical and more primitive process, while the latter is a more mental process (which also requires greater auditory discernment as well). So my point is simply that it makes sense that primitive humans would have sided with physical complexity over mental complexity when first applying meaning to sounds.

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    6. Re:Phoneme counts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Babies "babble" in the full range of sounds a human can make. As they observe their parents they mimic their paretn's sounds, and stop making some of the sounds they made before they began learning language. Over time children loose the ability to produce and hear certain phonemes. This is why it's hard for people over a certain age to learn languages not closely related to one they already speak (the often can't distinguish some of the phonemes used in that language).

      The theory behind "more phonemes == more primitive language" is likely that the closer a language is to "baby-talk" the less it differs from "grunt and point" as it's using a less specialized set of phonemes.

    7. Re:Phoneme counts by LordNacho · · Score: 2

      I read this earlier, and at first glance it's counter-intuitive. Why would older languages have more phonemes and not less? That's a lot more sounds to have to learn and be able to physically reproduce. I presume the extra physical difficulty was a substitute for the extra intelligence required to couple many phonemes together to make new meanings. So perhaps a single utterance was used to mean food, another sound for sleep, etc, so that each phoneme meant just one thing? Then it was small step to take the phoneme for food, add a hand gesture to it and that meant eat. Eventually that gesture was replaced with another phoneme, thus you had two phonemes combined like "food + action" meaning to eat. As humans became more intelligent they ditched the hard to produce sounds and used groups of easier to product phonemes instead? I'm not a linguist and the article doesn't talk about any of this sort of thing, but it makes sense to me.

      will have more variations where it came about, and it actually makes intuitive sense. That's because the rate of change of will be slower than the rate of movement of the carriers (in this case people.) Example: Where are the most variations of English found? That's right, England. Go around on a train and talk to the locals, each area has it's own distinct accent. Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester. Very near each other, but different accents.

      Go to America, and talk to people. They mostly came from a few regions of Britain, and those accents have spread (and changed a bit) over a huge expanse of North America. Can you tell the difference between a person from Seattle and San Fran? They quite a lot further apart from the mentioned cities in England.

      Same goes with human haplotypes. More varied in Africa. Less in Polynesia.

    8. Re:Phoneme counts by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      Obviously, shouldn't have used the corner brackets. I should have written (Things that evolve) to start with. And "That's because the rate of change of (the thing) will"

    9. Re:Phoneme counts by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Language didn't come from nothing, it evolve along with use.

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    10. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 2

      The simplest possible spoken language would be a single phoneme per meaning, correct?

      Only if one limited it strictly to vowels, and syllabic consonants. Vowel distinction is incredibly hard, and typically in the range of 3 to maybe 10 pure vowels at most. The naive thoughts about what would be "simple" in a language is getting in the way here.

      Thus the number of meanings, or words, you can produce are restricted to the number of phonemes sounds that can be physically produced.

      Theoretically yes... but the vast array of phonemes in languages cannot exist all on their own, and require "carrier" signals upon which to be formed. The carrier signals are vowels, and the bumps and hisses around them are the consonants and typically carry the most amount of phonemic distinction.

      Thus you would be creating as many unique sounds as possible to be able to express the maximum number of meanings, which is why the earliest languages had a huge number of phonemes.

      This doesn't really hold... there are limits to the human ability to produce sounds, and even more so there are limitations on distinctive sounds that can be recognized. For instance, the likelihood that a language will distinguish from a dental "t" and a alveolar "t" is almost nonexistent, as they sound so incredibly similar.

      It's about complexity. The complexity can either lie in the physical production of sounds, or in the combination of multiple sounds together. The former is a physical and more primitive process, while the latter is a more mental process (which also requires greater auditory discernment as well). So my point is simply that it makes sense that primitive humans would have sided with physical complexity over mental complexity when first applying meaning to sounds.

      Actually, the former process requires the great auditory discernment than the later. The more sounds made the better we have to be able to distinguish the various parts apart from each other. The human mind however is incredibly good at generalizing everything, and as a result merges similar sounds incredibly quickly, and eventually a person develops a solid lock on the distinctive sounds that they can recognize.

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    11. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 3, Informative

      Babies "babble" in the full range of sounds a human can make.

      Actually, babies "babble" in the full range of phonemes that they have heard their parents use. Even baby babbling is language dependent. Babies don't begin babbling until they are well exposed to the sounds of their parents, and in fact, while developing in the womb fetuses already are honing in on the phonemes used by their mothers, and are born with an innate interest towards the phonemes that their mother used as opposed to any other phonemes.

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    12. Re:Phoneme counts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Phonemes themselves are lost over time. This is less related to this so-called "founder effect" than on the existence of small, isolated groups of speakers. As these isolated speakers interact more and more, they are bound to lose specific phonemes, morphemes, even full words and syntatic structures (and possibly create novel forms of the same) as a result of common usage patterns. Elsewhere, these patterns may reflect different "choices" by different isolated groups which originally spoke the same language. Your Scandanavian example is a perfect representation of this commonly-seen phenomenon.

      The idea is that isolated groups tend to lose much more than they gain. Eventually these groups may come in contact with outsiders, intermingle, and then split off into other isolated groups again, where the process can repeat.

    13. Re:Phoneme counts by Eunuchswear · · Score: 2

      As humans became more intelligent

      How did you come up with this startling theory.

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    14. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Phonemes themselves are lost over time. This is less related to this so-called "founder effect" than on the existence of small, isolated groups of speakers. As these isolated speakers interact more and more, they are bound to lose specific phonemes, morphemes, even full words and syntatic structures (and possibly create novel forms of the same) as a result of common usage patterns. Elsewhere, these patterns may reflect different "choices" by different isolated groups which originally spoke the same language. Your Scandanavian example is a perfect representation of this commonly-seen phenomenon.

      The idea is that isolated groups tend to lose much more than they gain. Eventually these groups may come in contact with outsiders, intermingle, and then split off into other isolated groups again, where the process can repeat.

      Actually, language isolationists tend to preserve more than the original languages. Icelandic is much more similar to proto-North-Germanic than the Scandinavian languages. American English is closer to Victorian English than British English is...

      The closer nit the language community is, the more likely it is to retain language features.

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    15. Re:Phoneme counts by Rei · · Score: 2

      I'd be much more convinced if they had explanations for not just the lack of vocabulary between major language families, but the entirely different conceptions on sentence structure, concepts of what the language can represent readily and what it can't, etc, rather than just a rather flimsy, weak "number of phonemes" correlation. You know, as a native English speaker, I find the pronunciation of Icelandic pretty difficult (ég á erfitt með tannbergsmælt sveifluhljóð!), but you can't learn the language without it being plainly obvious that the language is related to English in everything from vocabulary to general sentence structure. By contrast, I find the pronunciation of Japanese quite easy, but for the life of me, I can't find one obvious similarity between the vocabulary, structure, conceptualization, etc of the language. Can they show how this happened? Certainly languages change; for example, the Indo-Iranian branch is SOV word order instead of SVO, but other details of the languages still make it obvious that they're related.

      This paper simply shows that there's a weak correlation between distance from Africa and phoneme diversity when population of speakers is taken into account. Well, to be blunt, all that really means is that English and Spanish together have significant phoneme diversity, since these two languages dominate the New World and skew results. Aka, this is about modern history, not ancient history. Even if there was meaning beyond this, it could be explained by many other factors, including genetic diversity (perhaps certain peoples have a greater ability to pronounce a broader range of phonemes than others), socio-political factors (for example, perhaps long-distance trade, being historically more common in Europe, Asia, and Northern Africa than southern Africa, increases phoneme diversity**), or dozens of other possible reasons. Saying "it's a common language" from this one correlation seems quite the stretch without supporting evidence.

      ** -- They claim to have controlled for this, but are vague as to how (see "Reference 15"), and I really doubt it can be properly controlled for. Also in Reference 15 are other suspect claims, like "Phonemic diversity appears to be highly stable within major language families". Really? Is that why Japanese phonemes are so familiar to English speakers, but Icelandic phonemes so different (alveolar trills, voiceless alveolar lateral affricates, etc)? Which are different still from German, which is linguistically more intermediary between the two, but has sounds found in neither (such as uvular consonants)? Icelandic is closer to Spanish in terms of phonemes, but isn't nearly as closely related.

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    16. Re:Phoneme counts by welcher · · Score: 1

      It's not my theory, it is the theory they use in the paper. Whether this is the cause or not it is hard to say. But the trend is apparent and this seems a reasonable explanation. Also, it is just a trend -- the graph in the linked article shows there is huge variation around the trend so counter-examples of the type you point out are many.

    17. Re:Phoneme counts by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

      Additionally, with phonemes the act of losing one seems to require a much lower effort than creating one.

      Just think about how hard it is to learn a new phoneme as an adult from a different culture. If you didn't acquire it from another culture to speak *their* language, why would you ever go to that effort, and how likely would it be you convince other people to do it as well?

      As opposed to losing a phoneme - we can all think of examples of shortening words or sounds, or just being lazy with pronunciation.

      It's less that a founder group is likely to consist most of people who slur something, and more that in isolation it is much easier to lose sounds than it is to gain them.

    18. Re:Phoneme counts by welcher · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure sure that your theory is even correct there. It is quite hard to make a lot of different sounds -- other great apes have far less vocal ability than we do -- whereas it is easy to convey lots of different meaning by rearranging just a few sounds.

    19. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      By contrast, I find the pronunciation of Japanese quite easy, but for the life of me, I can't find one obvious similarity between the vocabulary, structure, conceptualization, etc of the language.

      "I have a book."
      "Watashi wa hon ga arimsu." (Literally, Speaking of me, there is a book.)

      "I have seen Paris." (A possible literal translation: I am in possession of the act of having seen Paris.)
      "Watashi wa Parisu o mitte no ga arimasu." (Literal translation: Speaking of me, there is (the act of having seen Paris.))

      And similarity in vocabulary? They're borrowing our words left and right. "kompyutaa" "mausu" "kiboodo" etc.

      (I totally agree with your point though, just pointing out that you're likely not thinking broadly enough about relations between the languages... but then these relations follow through for ALL languages, in a brilliant display of Universal Grammar... so... it's kind of meaningless...)

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    20. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Which are different still from German, which is linguistically more intermediary between the two, but has sounds found in neither (such as uvular consonants)?

      Huh? German doesn't have any uvular consonants as phonemes...

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    21. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 2

      Actually, you're missing some details.

      Most phonemes undergo shifts. Say, a language only has unvoiced plosives, but makes a distinction between aspirated and unaspirated. Then, a shift happens and the unaspirated plosives shift into being voiced unaspirated plosives, and then become voice aspirated plosives. This is the vast majority of phoneme change.

      Next up, in the above phoneme shifts sometimes two phonemes end up colliding as a result of a shift. Say, interdental fricatives shift to being dental plosives, as a result "that" becomes "dat", but it's ok because the language doesn't have the voiced plosives yet. But then the unvoiced unaspirated plosives above turn into voiced unaspirated plosives, and now we have two consonants that have collided. But only the interdental plosives shifted in this block, so the velar fricative remains distinct from the voiced velar plosive. The language has "lost" a phoneme.

      But there's another thing going on here. Phonemes are not rendered purely all the time, it is not uncommon at all for a phoneme to be expressed as an allophone. Which is an alternate pronunciation that is still yet identified as the phoneme in question. In the continued example, the alveolar unvoiced aspirated plosive is pronounced as an interdental fricative before a front vowel. The next generation comes along and contextualizes this into a distinct phoneme and begin treating it like its own phoneme, and as a result the language has now "gained" a phoneme.

      Phonemic change does not happen on an individual human lifespan... precisely because the older generations lock in linguistic features of language while they are alive. Language experiences less Mendelian evolution than you think it does.

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    22. Re:Phoneme counts by welcher · · Score: 1

      Your argument for the founder effect works for words, but not necessarily for phonemes. In order for a phoneme to be dropped by founder effect, the phoneme would have to occur in none of the words that the founders brought over. The idea of a phoneme rare enough in a vocabulary large enough for use by a small colony seems unlikely...

      Plus, the Scandanavian languages lost the interdental fricative, while the colony of Iceland kept the interdental fricative... poor standing for your "founder effect" notion...

      Founder effects can occur with large groups, too. Think of two towns that speak the same language but have some noticeable variation between the two, for example, in one town they use the voiceless dental plosive, the other they use both the interdental fricative and the voiceless dental plosive. If these towns become isolated from each other evolving distinct languages, one will have fewer phonemes than the other. This is the founder effect.

    23. Re:Phoneme counts by Heian-794 · · Score: 1

      Some, but not all, German speakers have changed the [r] sound into an uvular one, as has most of France.

      I learned my German as textbook Hochdeutsch, with trilled [r], and without "ch" merging with "sch", and the first time I met a speaker who changed those two things, saying recht as if it were something like ghescht, I could barely understand him! But that doesn't mean that it's not a legitimate variety of German. That's how language variation gets started.

      Why Germans get so much guff for the supposedly-throat-clearingly-unpleasant sound of their "ch" whereas French people's "r" goes unnoticed is a great injustice. The French must have better PR.

    24. Re:Phoneme counts by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Hypothesis: The fewer polysyllabic words you have, the more distinct syllables you need.

    25. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Some, but not all, German speakers have changed the [r] sound into an uvular one, as has most of France.

      I learned my German as textbook Hochdeutsch, with trilled [r], and without "ch" merging with "sch", and the first time I met a speaker who changed those two things, saying recht as if it were something like ghescht, I could barely understand him! But that doesn't mean that it's not a legitimate variety of German. That's how language variation gets started.

      Why Germans get so much guff for the supposedly-throat-clearingly-unpleasant sound of their "ch" whereas French people's "r" goes unnoticed is a great injustice. The French must have better PR.

      What part of Germany were you in that had the ich-laut and "sch" merged? Oh wait, this is common in American speakers as well... nevermind.

      I do use a uvular r myself for "recht", which I think is becoming significantly more common in wide-use, while I don't think the same is true of the ich-laut and "sch" merge.

      I stand corrected, sir.

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    26. Re:Phoneme counts by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Interesting. That would explain why a first generation born American from immigrant parents will speak with foreign accent too. I'm curious to know how many generations it takes for that to erode away. Two, three maybe?

      --
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    27. Re:Phoneme counts by welcher · · Score: 1

      There is no argument by Atkinson that all language change is monotonic or predictable. But the observation that, on average, phoneme diversity increases with speaker population size and decreases with distance from Africa both seem true. These observations support the hypothesis that language spread out from a single origin in Africa , going through multiple bottlenecks that left this specific pattern of change. Of course, this is only one small part of the difference between languages and the signal is not without noise. It also fits in with broader theories that language was one of the things that allowed early humans to greatly expand their range. Are you arguing that people left Africa without language and it developed independently in multiple locations? By the way, your Hawaiian example is a classic of the founder effect seen throughout the Pacific.

    28. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Interesting. That would explain why a first generation born American from immigrant parents will speak with foreign accent too. I'm curious to know how many generations it takes for that to erode away. Two, three maybe?

      I know you're being facetious and all, because babies are capable of acquiring other languages without accents through exposure to those other languages. However, babies do not babble the entire gamut of human pronounceable phonemes... they babble in a very constrained set of phonemes of those used by their parents.

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    29. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      There is no argument by Atkinson that all language change is monotonic or predictable. But the observation that, on average, phoneme diversity increases with speaker population size and decreases with distance from Africa both seem true.

      Based on what? His statistics that shows extremely high variance? I bet he would be laughed out of any statistics department trying to extrapolate the linear model that he demonstrates. And let's not forget, that Navajo traveled a significantly longer distance from Africa than Hawaiian did, why does Navajo though have about 33 some consonants while Hawaiian only has 8?

      It also fits in with broader theories that language was one of the things that allowed early humans to greatly expand their range. Are you arguing that people left Africa without language and it developed independently in multiple locations?

      No, I am not arguing this, and I'm fairly confident that the assertion made by the paper is true, that Proto-World existed and it was spoken in Africa. However, we totally lack enough evidence to suggest that this is known... right now it's just something that we imagine is a really good hunch.

      By the way, your Hawaiian example is a classic of the founder effect seen throughout the Pacific.

      This paper is the first application of the "founder effect" on phonology... but it requires that a founding population have missing phonemes when they found a new population. The likelihood of this occurring is only in rare phonemes, and even then super unlikely because even rare phonemes are reasonably common given the size of vocabularies.

      There are better explanations for why phonemic diversity decreases and "founder effect" is a fairly bad theory. Hawaiian has 8 consonants while Maori has 10, but Hawaiian has heavy allophonic matching between "t" and "k", and "w" with "v", both of which suggest that there was a consonant shift in the Hawaiian/Maori proto-language that caused a phonemic collision in Hawaiian.

      We don't need the claim that "Hawaiian when it left didn't bring over any of the words that had 'k' or 'wh' in them"...

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    30. Re:Phoneme counts by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      No, I was being very serious (I live in Texas, major hispanic population). You seemed to know of this matter than I do, hence why I asked you.

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    31. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      No, I was being very serious (I live in Texas, major hispanic population). You seemed to know of this matter than I do, hence why I asked you.

      Ah, I live in, and was raised in New Mexico, even greater majority Hispanic population. What you're witnessing is children being raised in close exposure to Spanish with minimal exposure to English itself. This results in them being raised in a bit of a "bubble" and thus never having sufficient exposure English to acquire phonemic fluency prior to puberty and thus locking in an accent.

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    32. Re:Phoneme counts by deathcloset · · Score: 1

      Good argument.

      I love to hear a great theory, but I love to hear a great argument to it even more.

      It feels like your argument leaves the phonemic domain promptly when you state - "In the same way, some languages have a complex synthetic syntax...".

      Syntax and pattern are the befuddling aspects of language this theory abandons. That in itself is the primary power of this theory. To draw a comparison between the base sounds of a languages and the interface of it's components seems invalid to me.

      An analogy might be if we were to draw a comparison between the elements in a substance and the structure of that substance. Various atomic elements can substitute for each other and result in indistinguishable structures - like sodium chloride or potassium flouride both form cubes.

      In other words, if you want to figure out the 'more base' substance, looking at the structures they form will not help.

      The analogy can be perhaps extended by using stellar nucleosynthesis as an example of language formation - the 'oldest' or 'highest-generation' stars and their surrounding satellites have the most number of t elements.

      In a sense, the San are the 'oldest' region of the 'language universe' and have had the longest time to perform 'linguistic nucleosynthesis' - although much of the structures they form appear identical to newer languages because various elements match-up similarly, even though they are drastically different.

    33. Re:Phoneme counts by Rei · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure how you think those sentences are at all structured like we structure them. And borrowing our vocabulary is a modern-era thing; it has nothing to do with the origin of the language. :) Icelandic is just the opposite; they largely (although not completely) resist incorporating foreign words into the language (exceptions like "hallo?" when answering the phone notwithstanding -- but "telephone" itself is sími, which is an Old Norse word for thread or wire). But a lot of their original words match up with ours. Heim = home, kurteis = curteous, bróðir = brother, systir = sister, sonur = son, dóttir = daughter, skóla = school, hundur = dog (hound), sandur = sand, vestur = west, norður = north, suður = south, and on and on. I'd say perhaps 1 in 3 words have obvious correlations, and you can find the less obvious correlations if you trace the language back. Yet their phonemes are *very* different from ours, much more different than Japanese's.

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    34. Re:Phoneme counts by shoor · · Score: 1

      IANAL (I am not a linguist), but I've read a few books for the layman on linguistics. The most complicated languages, from a grammatical point of view, are those spoken by relatively small communities. When European linguists first started learning Native American Languages, they were startled by the complexity of their polysynthetic structure. Classical Latin and Greek are more complex than their modern equivalents, presumably because they are closer to the 'primitive' original languages. I studied Latin and yuck, you have to memorize the endings for 5 cases (6 if you count the vocative) of nouns, which change depending on which of 5 declensions they are in, whether they're singular or plural, whether the noun happens to be masculine, feminine, or neuter. And then you have to do the same all over again for various pronouns. (That's the way it was presented in my textbooks. Some experts would argue with that characterisation, and there are many similarities between some of those declensions, but it's still a PITA trying to remember how a second declension adjective modifying a first declension noun, especially if it happens to be masculine, is supposed to work, ie "bonus nauta" [good sailor] vs "bona silva" [good forest]), and I haven't even started on the verbs! But, if you were living in a small community, where almost everybody's parents and grand parents and great parents had lived and died within 20 miles of where you were born, you'd know everybody in your little village intimately, and pick up on each individual's quirks of speech. Everybody you knew would be about as intimately familiar with your environment as you were, and familiar with specially coined words to name every plant and animal, and the various parts of each plant and animal, and distinguish whether they were in view or out of view, near or far. Family relations would be distinguished as to older or young sibling, their sex, ditto for paternal and maternal aunts, uncles, cousins. English has come a long way from that, with various complexities folded into a few standard forms, so instead of saying brethren we now say brothers, though we still say children (eventually we may substitute the name originally used for young goats for child and children and just say kid and kids). English has spread so that people from all over the world share it, but we still have, for example, separate words for young sheep (lambs), cows (calves), bears (cubs), and so on, instead of just saying sheepling, cowling, bearling, which harks back to a time when English was the language of a largely agricultural society.

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    35. Re:Phoneme counts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was surprised to realize that "Meli Kalikimaka" is literally "Merry Christmas" pounded into the strict Hawai'ian phonemic rules.

      If you're going to cite a language, try to get it right.

      Mele Kalikimaka is a transliteration of "Merry Christmas". In Hawaiian, every consonant (including the `okina) must be followed by a vowel sound. Hawaiian only has 15 letters, including the `okina and kahako.

      The first Hawaiians were the Menehune. They were conquered and / or absorbed by later migrations from the Marquesas Islands and most recently Tahiti. Tahitian and Hawaiian are so similar that Captain Cook could communicate with the Hawaiians (the Hawaiians speaking Hawaiian and Cook speaking Tahitian).

    36. Re:Phoneme counts by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      I am not in any way an expert in languages, I think the reason why English has got so many irregular verbs might be a different one. For me it looks like the irregularities in English are not due to the simplicity of verbal patterns but rather due to numerous legacies (of middle German and Norman languages or so).

      Something similar is also the case with Russian. The language itself has got lots of clear rules about verbal patterns, but also many exceptions that are legacies of old Russian, Church Slavonic and spelling reforms.

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    37. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Well aside from the paraphrasical "Speaking of me, there is a book." Which is a result of being a topic-based language rather than subject-based language. ("Beans, I have them." It can be done in English as well.) The construction of sentence to noun phrase, and then used in a phrase indicating possession or ownership... yes, the two structures are the same, even if the syntax isn't.

      Japanese isn't without unusual phonemes either... The Japanese syllable "fu" for one doesn't occur in English. As well the Japanese "r" phoneme doesn't occur in English either. Neither does the "tsu" (the "ts" sound occurs in English but not as a distinct phoneme and not at the beginning of a syllable.) But granted it's nothing like voiceless nasals...

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    38. Re:Phoneme counts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Counter-hypothesis: The more distinct syllables you have, the fewer polysyllabic words you need.

    39. Re:Phoneme counts by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Hessen probably.
      This is still the biggest problem for me in Hessen, since I used to live in NRW for the better half of my life, and there this way to speak "ch" is somewhat comparable to the US American phenomen called "Ebonics".

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    40. Re:Phoneme counts by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I have several friends who are children of immigrants (various Asian/South Asian mostly) and they all speak perfect American English.

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    41. Re:Phoneme counts by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      Some languages gain phonemes, some languages lose phonemes.

      Some species gain genes, some species lose genes (and in a non-monotonic fashion), but yet we believe maps of genes provide reasonable taxonomic structures that descend from a single root (unless you're disputing this as well). Languages mutate and recombine just like genetic material. Why do you think we should believe in one and not the other?

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    42. Re:Phoneme counts by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      The simplest possible spoken language would be a single phoneme per meaning, correct?

      Only if one limited it strictly to vowels, and syllabic consonants. Vowel distinction is incredibly hard, and typically in the range of 3 to maybe 10 pure vowels at most. The naive thoughts about what would be "simple" in a language is getting in the way here.

      True. There are generally at least 3 major language families: tonal (e.g. Thai), click (e.g. Aborigine), and phonetic (e.g English). Now the majority of the world is primarily phonetic languages, and these split up into numerous categories. I'm not familiar enough with tonal and click languages to say how the break down; but they are primarily centralized in regions of Asia, Australia, and Africa.

      Though you also have to define a vowel. Not every language necessarily considers the same thing a vowel; so that could very. One language I'm working on for series treats 'c', 'p', and 's' as a vowel - it's got the 5 common vowels, plus about 4 or 5 functionary vowels that I can think of off the top of my head; over 30 letters in the primary alphabet.

      Thus the number of meanings, or words, you can produce are restricted to the number of phonemes sounds that can be physically produced.

      Theoretically yes... but the vast array of phonemes in languages cannot exist all on their own, and require "carrier" signals upon which to be formed. The carrier signals are vowels, and the bumps and hisses around them are the consonants and typically carry the most amount of phonemic distinction.

      Except tonal and click languages don't necessarily have vowels and consonants. For example, in Thai you can say a complete sentence with the same phonetic sound by simply variant the pitch (tone). But then, vowels and consonants are more for written language than spoken - so (again) definitions are a must.

      Thus you would be creating as many unique sounds as possible to be able to express the maximum number of meanings, which is why the earliest languages had a huge number of phonemes.

      This doesn't really hold... there are limits to the human ability to produce sounds, and even more so there are limitations on distinctive sounds that can be recognized. For instance, the likelihood that a language will distinguish from a dental "t" and a alveolar "t" is almost nonexistent, as they sound so incredibly similar.

      The likelihood is probably quite a bit higher than you realize. You need to study tonal and click languages - as they very well do much such distinctions. The human brain/ear/tongue is incredible in what can be differentiated between and produced. A baby and toddler learn the language around them, and later (by teenage years) lose much of the ability to pick up other languages - primarily due to losing the ability to distinguish and produce the variances in the "new" language versus what they are using every day. (Yes, there are some people do not lose that ability, or at least lose it as greatly as others.)

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    43. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Hessen probably.
      This is still the biggest problem for me in Hessen, since I used to live in NRW for the better half of my life, and there this way to speak "ch" is somewhat comparable to the US American phenomen called "Ebonics".

      It could have been worse, they could have been from Bayern. I knew a guy for a while from Bayern, and I could hardly understand him, I had doubts about my German because of it, as I am American. Then his dad randomly came by to visit and I could perfectly understand his dad. I breathed a deep sigh of relief...

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    44. Re:Phoneme counts by Rei · · Score: 1

      You can technically construct English style sentences in Japanese and ptentially be understood, but it doesn't mean you won't sound like you're talking like a martian, the same as if you say things like "Speaking of me, there is the act of having seen Paris" in English ;)

      The Japanese l/r is certainly not found in English, and their "g"s and "fu" can sometimes be softer. And as you note, ts occurs in English, although not as a phoneme or at the beginning of a syllable. Their consonant-y-vowel clusters are also rare in English, although they do exist. But all in all, except for the l/r issue, it's a pretty natural pronunciation for English speakers, compared to many languages that we're much more closely related to.

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    45. Re:Phoneme counts by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Baden-Württemberg or Austria are also bad. I have to phone a lot with customers there, sure enough I have to guess what they want to tell me, and they have to cope with my (not very heavy) Russian accent.

      It is not that people in Hessen are difficult to understand, though. It just sounds ugly for someone who used to live in NRW for 15 years.

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    46. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      True. There are generally at least 3 major language families: tonal (e.g. Thai), click (e.g. Aborigine), and phonetic (e.g English). Now the majority of the world is primarily phonetic languages, and these split up into numerous categories. I'm not familiar enough with tonal and click languages to say how the break down; but they are primarily centralized in regions of Asia, Australia, and Africa.

      Where did you get these language classifications? Tonal languages use standard phonetics, and so do "click" languages.

      Though you also have to define a vowel. Not every language necessarily considers the same thing a vowel; so that could very. One language I'm working on for series treats 'c', 'p', and 's' as a vowel - it's got the 5 common vowels, plus about 4 or 5 functionary vowels that I can think of off the top of my head; over 30 letters in the primary alphabet.

      I noted "syllabic consonants" as well. I know that some languages use some consonants as as vowels, e.g. Serbian language for itself is "srpski", where "r" is a syllabic consonant performing many of the same duties as a vowel. What am I defining as a vowel? The linguistic definition of a vowel, which excludes consonants, even if they are syllabic, and used similar to a vowel.

      Except tonal and click languages don't necessarily have vowels and consonants. For example, in Thai you can say a complete sentence with the same phonetic sound by simply variant the pitch (tone). But then, vowels and consonants are more for written language than spoken - so (again) definitions are a must.

      Where the hell did you get this notion? There is not a language in the world that doesn't have vowels, and similarly there is not a language in the world that does not have consonants. Even Pirahã at the lowest estimates has 7 consonants.

      Thai uses tones layered OVER phonetics. Thai cannot say anything with "just tones" the tones are carried by syllables.

      Vowels and consonants aren't more for written language, some languages don't even really write vowels (because they have say, only three vowels, so nearly any short vowel is an acceptable allophone of any other short vowel. And even then, the letters used to write the long vowels are actually glottal stop for "a", palatal approximant ("y") for "i", and labial approximant ("w") for "u")

      So, could one possibly compose a Thai sentence using only one phoneme but only with tonal variation? Sure, if one stuck with a simple vowel, which would severely limit anything useful to say... but the vowel used in the sentence would be phonemically distinct from any other vowel. (They also distinguish vowel length, so perhaps you could get away with two phonemes.)

      The likelihood is probably quite a bit higher than you realize. You need to study tonal and click languages - as they very well do much such distinctions.

      I have studied some tonal languages, no click languages though. And when I stated that the probability of distinguishing dental voiceless plosive from alveolar voiceless plosive, I'm not speaking out of my butt... BOTH are represented simplistically in IPA with "t", because no language known at the time of the IPA makes any distinction between the two. But where distinction between the two is required, (typically only necessary for distinguishing allophones, or for transcribing speech) they have diacritics to more finely indicate place of articulation.

      The human brain/ear/tongue is incredible in what can be differentiated between and produced. A baby and toddler learn the language around them, and later (by teenage years) lose much of the ability to pick up other languages - primarily due to losing the ability to distinguish and produce the variances in the "new" language versus what they are using every day. (Yes, there are some people do not lose that ability, or at least lose it as greatly as others.)

      I know about the critica

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    47. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      I am not in any way an expert in languages, I think the reason why English has got so many irregular verbs might be a different one. For me it looks like the irregularities in English are not due to the simplicity of verbal patterns but rather due to numerous legacies (of middle German and Norman languages or so).

      Something similar is also the case with Russian. The language itself has got lots of clear rules about verbal patterns, but also many exceptions that are legacies of old Russian, Church Slavonic and spelling reforms.

      Yes, this is pretty much why English has irregular verbs. But there's an important thing here: Why doesn't Hungarian how so many legacies? The answer is that they do. The only differences is that if one has to learn a complex verb pattern, they will recontextualize verbs to fit the pattern rather than ingrain irregularities. It's the same reason English speakers create "Swing swang swung"... to make it fit a more generic verb pattern.

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    48. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Some languages gain phonemes, some languages lose phonemes.

      Some species gain genes, some species lose genes (and in a non-monotonic fashion), but yet we believe maps of genes provide reasonable taxonomic structures that descend from a single root (unless you're disputing this as well). Languages mutate and recombine just like genetic material. Why do you think we should believe in one and not the other?

      Yes, and we tract species relations by tracking specific genetic mutations through the various genomes, such as Endogenous Retro Viral (ERV) insertions. We can use these mutations and rules to track Dutch, and German back to a related language, and then English into a further related language, and then back further to account for Latin, Greek, Indo-Iranian, and all the way back to showing relation to the Anatolian language(s). But here, we start running into problems. We cannot see the relations from Indo-European to Afro-Semetic languages, because the mutation rate is very high in languages, and the noise of mutations starts to drown out signal of relationships.

      So, while it's accepted that it's quite likely that all the languages diverged from a common language, we don't have the same genetic analysis available to us that we do have for biological relationships of species.

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    49. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      The Japanese "fu" syllable is not just "softer" it's a bilabial fricative, of which there are none in English.

      So, if you take "every English speaker mispronounces 'fu' and says 'su' instead of 'tsu'" sure... English speakers have a reasonably natural pronunciation of Japanese. Oh and as long as you're willing to accept that English speakers don't produce "pure" vowel sounds and seem to diphthong every vowel. And the whole "ends in /-e/ becomes /-ej/ or /i/" thing... If I could kill every person who says "saki" or "sakey"...

      It's different issues, and I'll grant you, Icelandic is known to have a difficult phonology... but getting Japanese right isn't much easier than getting German right.

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    50. Re:Phoneme counts by Rei · · Score: 1

      The only difference between the Japanese "fu" and the English "fu" is whether your lower teeth make contact with your upper lip. And not all English speakers are heavy on dipthongs, nor are all English vowels dipthonged. Heck, part of the "southern accent" is about the elimination of the dipthong in the "eye" sound ("I'm going to buy some ice" -> "Ah'm gonna bah som' ahhs"). And as for your "sakey" example, that's just people who've never bothered to look up the pronunciation; that has nothing to do with how easy it is to pronounce.

      BTW, the one that is like scratching nails on a chalkboard to me is "Toe-Key-Yo" ;) But I generally find I have little trouble correcting people, and you'll find the same with sake.

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    51. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      The only difference between the Japanese "fu" and the English "fu" is whether your lower teeth make contact with your upper lip.

      Yes, like I said, the Japanese "fu" is a bilabial (two lip) fricative, while the English "fu" is a labio-dental (lip and teeth) fricative. I didn't say they didn't sound similar, I said that pronouncing an English "fu" for a Japanese "fu" is mispronouncing the phoneme. ;)

      And not all English speakers are heavy on dipthongs, nor are all English vowels dipthonged. Heck, part of the "southern accent" is about the elimination of the dipthong in the "eye" sound ("I'm going to buy some ice" -> "Ah'm gonna bah som' ahhs").

      Right, but the most common English accents pronounce not just the diphthong "eye" in that sentence, but even the vowel in "some" is pronounced as a diphthong. It's primarily by allophonic production, so none of them hear it or realize that they're even saying it, but they do it.

      And as for your "sakey" example, that's just people who've never bothered to look up the pronunciation; that has nothing to do with how easy it is to pronounce.

      Even if you tell an American how to properly pronounce "sake" and you coach them to pronounce it properly, because of allophonic rules, depending on how well they can pick up new phonemic rules, they will eventually revert to pronouncing it wrong. Unless they're a haughty taughty fellow, who excruciatingly examines everything they say, and then they just end up like pricks demanding that people pronounce "comfortable" correctly...

      BTW, the one that is like scratching nails on a chalkboard to me is "Toe-Key-Yo" ;) But I generally find I have little trouble correcting people, and you'll find the same with sake.

      I deal with so many horrible pronunciations I've given up on Americans... but you're right, it is a grating pronunciation. After coaching someone enough to get it right, come back a week later, and get them to pronounce it cold, without thinking about it... I almost guarantee you that they get it wrong.

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    52. Re:Phoneme counts by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      The number of phonemes in a language has nothing to do with intelligence. In theory, the more modern languages have fewer phonemes because of the "founder effect". If you think about this in terms of vocabulary, it is obvious -- no-one knows all the words in any language, so if a small group set off to start their own colony, the language of that colony won't have the words that none of the founders knew. New words may be invented to substitute for the missing words but they will be different. It is the same with sounds (and genetic diversity, where this was first observed). Since new sound formation is a very slow process, the signal remains for a long time.

      Your argument for the founder effect works for words, but not necessarily for phonemes. In order for a phoneme to be dropped by founder effect, the phoneme would have to occur in none of the words that the founders brought over. The idea of a phoneme rare enough in a vocabulary large enough for use by a small colony seems unlikely...

      No, it's much worse than that. Why? Because phonemes aren't just bits that haphazardly occur in words. Rather, the phonemes are the resulting units of a phonological system that organizes continuous sound into discrete units that can be used for speech. As such, the phonemes of a language are more fundamental than its vocabulary; it's a constraint on the vocabulary. The set of phonemes of a language isn't determined by what phonemes its word has, but rather, the other way around: which phonemes the words have is determined by the set of phonemes in the language.

      For example, take the phenomenon of glossolalia, popularly known as "speaking in tongues." One of the fundamental facts about glossolalia is that the sounds produced conform to the phonology of the languages that the speaker knows. I.e., if you're native language is English and you don't speak any other languages, and you're speaking in tongues, your gibberish is gonna be English-sounding gibberish. This is a pretty good demonstration that a language's phoneme inventory is something separate from its vocabulary.

    53. Re:Phoneme counts by welcher · · Score: 1

      Based on what? His statistics that shows extremely high variance? I bet he would be laughed out of any statistics department trying to extrapolate the linear model that he demonstrates. And let's not forget, that Navajo traveled a significantly longer distance from Africa than Hawaiian did, why does Navajo though have about 33 some consonants while Hawaiian only has 8?

      Speaking as a statistics PhD, I can say that the correlation he finds between distance and phoneme diversity is pretty robust -- real data from complex systems is always going to be noisy. The model used could probably be improved (eg using a definition of distance that better reflected migration routes) but that would require making a lot more assumptions.

      And let's not forget, that Navajo traveled a significantly longer distance from Africa than Hawaiian did, why does Navajo though have about 33 some consonants while Hawaiian only has 8?

      Cherry-picking extreme cases does not prove that a trend does not exist. But, as argued in the paper, the Austronesian languages could be expected to see a very strong founder effect because of the island-hopping style of migration. This has been studied extensively and there is genetic and cultural evidence to suggest founder effects.

      No, I am not arguing this, and I'm fairly confident that the assertion made by the paper is true, that Proto-World existed and it was spoken in Africa. However, we totally lack enough evidence to suggest that this is known... right now it's just something that we imagine is a really good hunch.

      This is evidence that supports the hypothesis. It doesn't prove it, by any means, but it is consistent with the hypothesis.

      This paper is the first application of the "founder effect" on phonology... but it requires that a founding population have missing phonemes when they found a new population. The likelihood of this occurring is only in rare phonemes, and even then super unlikely because even rare phonemes are reasonably common given the size of vocabularies.

      There are better explanations for why phonemic diversity decreases and "founder effect" is a fairly bad theory. Hawaiian has 8 consonants while Maori has 10, but Hawaiian has heavy allophonic matching between "t" and "k", and "w" with "v", both of which suggest that there was a consonant shift in the Hawaiian/Maori proto-language that caused a phonemic collision in Hawaiian.

      We don't need the claim that "Hawaiian when it left didn't bring over any of the words that had 'k' or 'wh' in them"...

      You may well be right that it is not a strict founder effect in action here in the sense that there weren't some phonemes that go left off the boat, as it were. But it is quite possible that there was some other cultural force in effect as new colony established themselves causing the same bottle-necking that is seen with a strict founder effect.

      I think linguists often get lost in the complexity of the individual systems they study (often to a very impressive level) and are unable to step back with a study like this and see a broader trend. Indeed, a very broad and quite weak trend like this probably doesn't really tell a linguist much if they are interested in relationships between languages of the past few thousand years because it has very little predictive power. But I see it as quite a nice use of statistical reasoning in that it ignores a lot of the details, simplifying the data down to a point where it is easy to work with but still contains some signal that can reasonably be interpreted.

    54. Re:Phoneme counts by dargaud · · Score: 1

      [...] interdental fricative [...]

      I'm fascinated by articles on language origins and the various methods used to build relation trees between them, but I have no idea what those pronunciation terms mean. Isn't there a site somewhere with SOUNDS to complement those linguistic terms ? I mean, WTF is a 'fricative', seriously !

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    55. Re:Phoneme counts by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      [...] interdental fricative [...]

      I'm fascinated by articles on language origins and the various methods used to build relation trees between them, but I have no idea what those pronunciation terms mean. Isn't there a site somewhere with SOUNDS to complement those linguistic terms ? I mean, WTF is a 'fricative', seriously !

      A fricative is a sound made by constricting airflow into a narrow channel between two articulating points. In the case of an interdental, it means placing the tongue between the teeth (generally up on the upper teeth) and forcing air through it. It is the "th" sound in English. ("this" is voiced, and "thanks" is unvoiced.)

      A good place to start learning the terms would be to go to the Wikipedia article for the International Phonetic Alphabet. It has a table with all the sounds deemed possible to pronounce, and links to descriptions of them.

      The only better choice is to get a linguist near you to sit down and sound them out for you... (you likely won't hear the difference between most, even if the linguist could pronounce them appropriately.)

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    56. Re:Phoneme counts by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      Phonemes themselves are lost over time. This is less related to this so-called "founder effect" than on the existence of small, isolated groups of speakers. As these isolated speakers interact more and more, they are bound to lose specific phonemes, morphemes, even full words and syntatic structures (and possibly create novel forms of the same) as a result of common usage patterns. Elsewhere, these patterns may reflect different "choices" by different isolated groups which originally spoke the same language. Your Scandanavian example is a perfect representation of this commonly-seen phenomenon.

      The idea is that isolated groups tend to lose much more than they gain. Eventually these groups may come in contact with outsiders, intermingle, and then split off into other isolated groups again, where the process can repeat.

      I this this is flawed in multiple ways. snowgirl pointed out that isolated language communities tend to preserve more stuff; the completementary observation can be made that the simplest languages tend to develop in the least isolated communities, where a large variety of substantially different languages are found. Pidgins are the prime example here.

      In addition, while you claim that language change will somehow naturally tend toward simplification, the actual theory of language change as taught to me by actual linguists does not entail that at all. Language change, as traditionally conceived, is a ying-yang process of analogy and sound change. On the one side, analogy produces simpler, more regular systems, while on the outher, sound change destroys the regularity and simplicity of systems, with no obvious trend toward either simplification or complexity.

    57. Re:Phoneme counts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OP doubleplus ungood refs untheory.

    58. Re:Phoneme counts by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      The thing is that restricted dialectal variation is not the same thing as a small phoneme inventory. New World dialects of European languages are indeed less variable than their Old World counterparts, but I haven't seen an argument that they are phonologically simpler as a rule or trend. The one case I feel confident to comment on is Spanish; I don't see that the Spanish of the New World is any simpler than that of, say, Seville.

      I mentioned this in another post, but pidgins and creoles are a better example here, because they normally do involve noticeably structural simplification.

    59. Re:Phoneme counts by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      Founder effects can occur with large groups, too. Think of two towns that speak the same language but have some noticeable variation between the two, for example, in one town they use the voiceless dental plosive, the other they use both the interdental fricative and the voiceless dental plosive. If these towns become isolated from each other evolving distinct languages, one will have fewer phonemes than the other. This is the founder effect.

      The problem there is that one of those towns will have more phonemes than the other, also because of the founder effect.

      I've been saying this all over this thread (and I'm not the only one saying it): "normal" language change does not obviously lead to simplification, and in fact may tend toward complexity. If we observe simplification, radical language contact seems a more likely cause. If languages that are "farther" from the origin tend to be simpler, then it would be presumably because they are more likely to have pidgin- or creole-like events at points in their history.

    60. Re:Phoneme counts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As humans became more intelligent

      How did you come up with this startling theory.

      I have to agree. I can't help but feel that we are becoming ever-so-slightly less intelligent with each successive generation.

      I'm too young to have a lawn...

    61. Re:Phoneme counts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The closer nit the language community is, the more likely it is to retain language features.

      ...and their lice, too! (Sorry, I couldn't resist)

    62. Re:Phoneme counts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that it relates to evolution of plants. For instance, corn is from the Americas and moved to Europe after Columbus. And if you look at the varieties of corn in the USA there are a certain number. But if you look at South America, there are many more types of corn.
      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080627163156.htm

      The greater amount of variation indicates the origin.

      This is also true for genetics. There is the greatest variation of genes in Africa, and fewer, say, in subset migrations, e.g. Greenland.

  9. Great, another bad movie plot... by TWX · · Score: 1

    So, the team comprised of the hero, his hot chick, and his sidekicks learn of a relic they have to retrieve or destroy before the bad people get to it first, and on the way they learn of the original "mother tongue" and have to figure out What This Means and How It Works to save all of us from the relic...

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    1. Re:Great, another bad movie plot... by Tackhead · · Score: 1

      So, the team comprised of the hero, his hot chick, and his sidekicks learn of a relic they have to retrieve or destroy before the bad people get to it first, and on the way they learn of the original "mother tongue" and have to figure out What This Means and How It Works to save all of us from the relic...

      Been there, done that.

      Spoiler: It was a 1:4:9:16 black monolith. (What, you think it stops at three dimensions?)

    2. Re:Great, another bad movie plot... by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Spoiler: It was a 1:4:9:16 black monolith. (What, you think it stops at three dimensions?)

      You listed four... oh.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    3. Re:Great, another bad movie plot... by gatkinso · · Score: 1

      You had me at "hot chick."

      --
      I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    4. Re:Great, another bad movie plot... by Aequitarum+Custos · · Score: 1

      1
      1 + 3
      1 + 3 + 5
      1 + 3 + 5 + 7

      The 5th dimension must be 25 right?

  10. Cradle of Life & Language by jimmerz28 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The "cradle of life" was apparently the same place that language originated?!

    Astounding!

    Africa gave us life and language, and now look at her =(

    1. Re:Cradle of Life & Language by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Africa? Clearly the Bible places humanity's origins in the Garden of Eden, located somewhere in Mesopotamia, on the continent of Asia.

      Obviously Africa was not involved in language.

    2. Re:Cradle of Life & Language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Africa gave us life and language, and now look at her =(

      Well the enterprising and adventurous people migrated out of there, what did you expect would happen ?

    3. Re:Cradle of Life & Language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Africa invents crude language.
      Africa outsources future development of crude language.
      Africa fails to benefit.
      Some things never change;(

    4. Re:Cradle of Life & Language by rev_sanchez · · Score: 1

      You'd think that some of the phrases early African people were saying all of the time would still be kicking around and we'd be using them. Why don't more peoples have a common way of saying:
      - Look, a lion! Run.
      - Fuck, it's hot around here!
      - Damn, look at that ass!
      - Gross, why do elephants have to shit so big?

      --
      If you didn't come to party don't bother knocking on my door. Prince '1999'
    5. Re:Cradle of Life & Language by aekafan · · Score: 1

      Yeah why do you think the majority of the species decided to leave? :)

    6. Re:Cradle of Life & Language by prgrmr · · Score: 2

      Recall that the The Garden was at the confluence of 5 rivers: the Tigress, the Euphrates, and three others I can't be bothered to look-up right now. If you compact the continents so that the Mediterranean sea, the Red Sea, and the Persian Gulf become no wider than rivers, the confluence point moves to the The Sinai Peninsula, which is part of Africa.

    7. Re:Cradle of Life & Language by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      I was going say the same thing. Let's keep an open mind here. Perhaps war and strife was the reason for departing of these lands. If you can't fight off danger, it's best to run away than die trying.

      People have a sense of adventure to explore, but we're not one for leaving our homes either. Not unless we perceive the whole "grass is greener on the other side" thing.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    8. Re:Cradle of Life & Language by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      I presume you were being humorous, but the answer is simple....
      You leave that hot place with lions, elephants and donkeys, and move to somewhere with mammoths, bears and horses. The original phrases are suddenly useless to you, but useful with slightly different meaning in a new context. Keep this changing as the environment changes, and you get "common ways" of saying different things. As a result, what used to mean "Look, a lion! Run." becomes, after a few shifts, "Hurry up, it's time for lunch!" And, of course, you've got simpler examples in English, such as "bad ass".

      This is why they're tracking phonemes instead of phrases. All members of a culture tend to learn a limited set of phonemes in early childhood, and those are used to build all the shifting words and phrases in a language.

      We'll leave out discussion of colloquialisms and cliches, as that will go nowhere.

    9. Re:Cradle of Life & Language by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      They adapted to live in a very hostile and unforgiving terrain, honing their skills and improving their cooperative instincts. When they stumbled out and found a far more fertile lands, the emigre population zoomed up. The original population continues to struggle in the same hostile and unforgiving land.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    10. Re:Cradle of Life & Language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Africa gave us life and language, and now look at her

      Evolution just stopped there. The real question is why did people in Europe and Asia evolve while Africa, the middle east, southeast Asia, and Australia stop.

    11. Re:Cradle of Life & Language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...and now look at her =("

      You're implying a decline in the continent somehow...I wonder if you're comparing her to first world countries of today or the romantic "cradle of life" period, when we would fend off saber-toothed tigers with sticks?

    12. Re:Cradle of Life & Language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep - still in the cradle

  11. Dear Language Users of The World... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

    I'm afraid that I have some very bad news about your ongoing use of unlicenced derivatives of my legally protected intellectual property...

    XOXOXO,
    The Ancestral Ur Language.

    1. Re:Dear Language Users of The World... by db10 · · Score: 1

      shampoo, is that you?

    2. Re:Dear Language Users of The World... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      shampoo was invented by the Ancestral Ur Language.

    3. Re:Dear Language Users of The World... by _0xd0ad · · Score: 1

      Whoosh (or maybe you got it - but for the sake of those who didn't).

  12. Don't quite understand the premise by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 2

    I realize that the ones studying this are testing the hypothesis that distance from Africa would result in decreased phoneme complexity, but the graph that was provided doesn't seem to jive with that idea. That chart of languages (clearly, not all 504 languages are included) seems to imply that languages are all over the map as far as phoneme complexity and distance to Africa.

    --
    My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
    1. Re:Don't quite understand the premise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      parent++;

      The graph does not support the hypothesis as far as I can tell. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong? The dots are all over, with a line drawn in it as though it were linear. Doesn't look linear to me.

    2. Re:Don't quite understand the premise by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      Apparently they're basing it on the median and throwing the variance out the window...

      I wonder what the decrease in sampling as it moves away from Africa does to the credibility of the analysis.

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    3. Re:Don't quite understand the premise by kidcharles · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'm sure there's more data than what is shown on that graph but the standard deviation from that linear fit looks huge to me.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une sig.
  13. Archeology and Religion too by Suki+I · · Score: 1

    Don't the archeologists pin the origin of our species in Africa too? Don't Christians, Jews and Muslims (probably others) place it there too? Just seems logical and should not be a shock.

    1. Re:Archeology and Religion too by medv4380 · · Score: 1
      Yea but the "Out of Africa" hypothesis is on shaky ground since Europeans have Neanderthal DNA mix in.

      Christians, Jews and Muslims place the origin to the Garden of Eden. Where that is or was isn't exactly placed, but is somewhere between Egypt and Assyria(Iraq). That's a great distance away from Southern Africa.

      If you actually believe this guy and think that the "root" language came from africa and isn't what NotSanguine pointed out then you might want to see this.

    2. Re:Archeology and Religion too by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      We still came from Africa. If we have Neandertal genes, it just means some part of our genome left Africa earlier than other parts.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Archeology and Religion too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prety much.

      I imagine the "shock" is more that someone has managed to find evidence that "proves" this rather than just saying: "if our species is native to Africa than our languages probably are too".

      There's also probably some school of though that language developed several times independently after humans spread out from Africa. Prior to evidence to the contrary that hypothesis would have been just as valid as the hypothesis that language developed once, and evolved into the many language families we have today.

    4. Re:Archeology and Religion too by medv4380 · · Score: 1

      Actually Neanderthal have never been found in Africa. Now if you want to go back farther to other species then we might as well go back to the first living thing, and no know knows where that was formed.

    5. Re:Archeology and Religion too by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Neandertals descended from H. erectus, which did come out Africa. Your analogy is crap.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  14. Babel by fahlesr1 · · Score: 1

    Not gonna lie, my first thought when I read the article was of the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel.

    1. Re:Babel by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Not gonna lie, my first thought when I read the article was of the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel.

      No surprise. If you read Genesis from a detached perspective, it immediately jumps out that almost everything in the book is an etiology. The ToB story "explains" why the world is full of different languages, just as other parts of the book explain why serpents crawl on their bellies, why weeds grow on your farm, etc.

      If you read it with that in mind, it's quite a charming read.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  15. Speciest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Whales and Dolphins are people, too!

    1. Re:Speciest by The+Grim+Reefer2 · · Score: 1

      Flipper commented on this story just a few hours ago. He is on record as saying, well there is no good text to document dolphin statements. But it roughly translated to, "What mother of all mother fucking languages can you trace this statement to bitches!".

    2. Re:Speciest by fatphil · · Score: 1

      That's a very wordy translation, I prefer the King Quentin translation:

      Dolphin, motherfucker - do you click it?

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    3. Re:Speciest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck you, Dolphin! Fuck you, Whale!

  16. are languages complexifying or simplyfing? by peter303 · · Score: 1

    The study correlates simpler phonetic structures with more isolated populations. However I wonder if languages begin as relatively phonetically simply and then become more phonetically complex as various linguistic populations mingle, like in south Africa? Or is the reverse, that in isolation they start shedding complexity, like in Polyneasia?

    Please dont cite computer languages as an example, because everyone knows that answer :-)

  17. Statistics and Psychologists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The statistical analysis is shoddy to say the least. Fitting a linear regression line to a normally distributed stochastic data is not only wrong, it is embarrassing.

  18. Just a warning by Duradin · · Score: 2

    Just a warning: if a crudely rendered naked chick opens a scroll at you DO NOT LOOK AT THE SCROLL!

    1. Re:Just a warning by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Clearly that will not be a problem for most of the people on this site.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    2. Re:Just a warning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If this were a virus you would be dead now. Fortunately it's not. The metaverse is a dangerous place; How's your security? Call Hiro Protagonist Security Associates for a free initial consultation.

    3. Re:Just a warning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fa la ba na la ga ra... oh shit, too late! Hey, come on, she was n a k e d!

    4. Re:Just a warning by fiveminutes · · Score: 1

      +1 for the Snow Crash reference.

    5. Re:Just a warning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just a warning: if a crudely rendered naked chick opens a scroll at you DO NOT LOOK AT THE SCROLL!

      Oh, come on. Everyone knows you should stand in the back and not read anything! And then you burn it all. :)

  19. Clearly thats when the Acent ... by bobs666 · · Score: 1

    ... Astronauts taught us to speak.

    1. Re:Clearly thats when the Acent ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. As soon as they fought their way across the galaxy, shot all their technology into the Sun and began boffing the natives. I don't know how people come up with such terrible ideas.

  20. Can't resist.... incoming bad pun: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All Languages Linked To Common Source: The human mouth.

    Something about genetic and stuff.

  21. Chimps by GeorgeMonroy · · Score: 0

    do chimps have the vocal chords to speak a human language? If so then why hasn't anybody taken a newborn chimp and taught the chimp to talk English or Spanish for example? Maybe even an easier language would work.

    --
    You got the touch!
    1. Re:Chimps by snowgirl · · Score: 4, Informative

      do chimps have the vocal chords to speak a human language? If so then why hasn't anybody taken a newborn chimp and taught the chimp to talk English or Spanish for example? Maybe even an easier language would work.

      Chimps lack vocal chords, as well their mouths are not suited towards producing the variety of noises like we can. I recall an early attempt at raising a chimp in a house like any other human child and it never acquired speech.

      Later the same experiment was tried with Washoe, who was raised with ASL exposure like a deaf child would be. The results were not impressive. She learned some signs and was able to communicate immediate needs and concerns, but never progressed beyond the abilities of a 3 year old linguistically. The research was announced as a success, and that Washoe learned ASL incredibly well, but the researchers refused to release any of the actual data, or anything to substantiate their claims. Having had to raise the chimp as it were a child, they are quite obviously not the most unbiased or objective source on the quality of their research.

      Later, a Nim Chimpsky was raised with intent to reproduce the results purported by the Washoe experiment, and failed to replicate the results. He learned again, very limited communication only of immediate needs and concerns with no actual regularized syntax. In fact, the Deaf reviewer on the team consistently reported that he knew less signs than the hearing reviewers. Concerned he might be wrong, he looked into the reasons why, and discovered that people were giving Nim great leeway in signs; reporting some non-verbal behaviors as verbal communication.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    2. Re:Chimps by CODiNE · · Score: 1

      I can't remember the name of that stupid ape they had in California where the trainer was the only person allowed to interact with it and "interpret" it's signs.

      There was an interview with it on AOL long ago where it's trainer said something like "She's happy to communicate with all you people" when the ape was just signing "nipple" over and over and trying to grab someone's boob.

      Workers also quit and accused the thing of being obsessed with sex and always grabbing at them. I talked to some deaf who had a chance to see it at the zoo, thing would just do random signs that didn't make any sense. Definitely not up to language ability of a 3 year old human. Heck I've had conversations with 3 year old deaf kids.

      --
      Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
    3. Re:Chimps by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Sounds like Koko the Gorilla.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
  22. Mother Tongue by catchblue22 · · Score: 1

    Reader NotSanguine points out another study which challenges the idea that the brain is more important to the structure of language than cultural evolution.

    Perhaps we should not forget the evolution of the structure of our tongue, mouth, and vocal chords in the evolution of language.

    --
    This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
  23. half a model? by bityz · · Score: 2
    Supporting materials for the article can be found here (pdf). The article itself is available to members. From the supporting materials:

    A serial founder effect model of phonemic diversity was used to infer the most likely origin of modern languages, following an approach outlined in studies of human genetic and phenotypic diversity (S6). Under this model, during population expansion, small founder groups are expected to carry less phonemic diversity than their larger parent populations.

    This approach only models the decrease in phonemic diversity due to migration. It does not say anything about how phonemic diversity grows. In essence, it models only half of the system. To me it seems difficult to answer questions of the origin of language without also modeling the growth of phonemic diversity Phonemic variation can be introduced to the region by migration as well (as in the case of the apparent migration of phonemes from Borneo to Madagascar).

    One word of caution: I am not an expert in the field... just a slashdot reader.

    1. Re:half a model? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      This approach only models the decrease in phonemic diversity due to migration. It does not say anything about how phonemic diversity grows. In essence, it models only half of the system. To me it seems difficult to answer questions of the origin of language without also modeling the growth of phonemic diversity Phonemic variation can be introduced to the region by migration as well (as in the case of the apparent migration of phonemes from Borneo to Madagascar).

      There's a serious problem for mapping deep relationships between languages, which someone (Larry Trask?) mentioned on one of the linguistics discussion boards a decade or so ago.

      Any pair of languages will have a number of happenstance correspondences that are not indicative of actual relatedness. This is true whether you're considering phonemes, morphemes, syntax - anything. And while the number of such correspondences varies between pairs of languages, and even over time for a given pair, you can think of it as a more-or-less constant level of background noise that you have to filter out when looking for relatedness between languages.

      But the genuine signs of relatedness disappear monotonically with time. So it follows inevitably that after some amount of time the "signal" of genuine correspondences will be submerged under the "noise" of happenstance correspondences. So it's inevitable that we will not be able to detect correspondences beyond a certain time depth.

      The question is, how much time? I've also read (maybe in the same discussion) that modern historical linguists are almost evenly divided on whether the reconstructed Nostratic family is real or mirage. So that suggests that even if Nostratic is real, it's at the very edge of what can be reliably constructed - the evidence isn't strong enough to convince but about half the experts.

      So if those notions are correct, we can conclude that it is not possible to detect genuine linguistic correspondences more than (IIRC) about 15,000 years ago. Anything beyond that is just as likely to be seeing patterns in the noise (a thing which we humans are very good at).

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  24. COBOL? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it COBOL?

  25. Shouldn't we be the group not to fall for this? by br00tus · · Score: 1
    There are two stories above, and the second is more silly than the first one.

    Any of us who have taken a theory of computation class know about generative grammar, the Chomsky hierarchy and the like. While for our field, we're more familiar with the part of this theory that deals with regular expressions, the Church-Turing thesis, the halting problem and the like, at least we are familiar with the rules of a generative grammar, and hopefully have had at least some exposure as to its application to linguistics. The fact is that all languages follow the same rules of generative grammar. Some languages favor certain rules over others, but there are no languages that people regularly use that fall outside of the accepted rules for generative grammar. As we began seeing cave paintings, Venus figurines, and more advanced tools starting 50,000 years ago with the onset of behavioral modernity among humans, we can assume that language existed then, and we know it has existed from the time we have written records. If there is not a biological basis for language, if there is no underlying sense of rules for all human languages, why have no languages evolved outside of the framework of rules of the basic generative grammar? You have thousands of languages all over the world, in fact depending on the strictness of the definition of language, everyone speaks a different language - if you know a word your friend does not know the meaning of, and vice versa, under a strict definition, you are speaking different languages when those words are used. Why does everyone follow the same underlying grammar rules, why has no other type of language evolved over the past thousands (probably tens of thousands) of years? Everything points to a biological basis for this, and our study of Broca's and Wernicke's area in the brain, and the brain in general, and every study in every field points to the universal rules of grammar for all languages and the biological basis for this.

    While there are of course minor arguments over this or that, the universal grammar of all languages and the biological underpinnings of this are accepted throughout many fields - linguistics, study of the brain and so forth. Scientists and linguists make minor challenges to various rules over the years, and some of these challenges are accepted, and the theory is slightly changed. On the other hand, every few years some scientist or linguist, or even non-scientist or non-linguist, comes out and says he has disproved the mass of knowledge accumulated over the decades and says he has discovered language is completely cultural in our tabula rasa brains. Eventually, this is always disproven. As time goes on, the cultural people chip away at the edifice of proof, but it still stands. Obviously there is some cultural influence and exchange and lineage of languages, but the underlying basis of all of this is our brain's biology.

    1. Re:Shouldn't we be the group not to fall for this? by Tokolosh · · Score: 1

      You might find this interesting: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/04/evolution-of-language

      "It’s widely thought that human language evolved in universally similar ways, following trajectories common across place and culture, and possibly reflecting common linguistic structures in our brains. But a massive, millennium-spanning analysis of humanity’s major language families suggests otherwise.

      Instead, language seems to have evolved along varied, complicated paths, guided less by neurological settings than cultural circumstance. If our minds do shape the evolution of language, it’s likely at levels deeper and more nuanced than many researchers anticipated. "

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    2. Re:Shouldn't we be the group not to fall for this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While there are of course minor arguments over this or that, the universal grammar of all languages and the biological underpinnings of this are accepted throughout many fields - linguistics, study of the brain and so forth. Scientists and linguists make minor challenges to various rules over the years, and some of these challenges are accepted, and the theory is slightly changed. On the other hand, every few years some scientist or linguist, or even non-scientist or non-linguist, comes out and says he has disproved the mass of knowledge accumulated over the decades and says he has discovered language is completely cultural in our tabula rasa brains. Eventually, this is always disproven. As time goes on, the cultural people chip away at the edifice of proof, but it still stands. Obviously there is some cultural influence and exchange and lineage of languages, but the underlying basis of all of this is our brain's biology.

      It's a bit of a push/pull, no? If the biological structures didn't exist, there wouldn't be the physical ability to perceive the cultural pattern. Once the neurological connections start to be made, however, there's some influence on the underlying physical structure. Like a bird flying through the air, we're taking advantage of a resource that probably evolved out of some random mutation. And some random social experience when sound was used to evoke a memory.

      I've a theory that development of memory is probably more important to (and closer still to the biological layer of) language. If anything, language can be thought of as a subset of memory. The purposes of language are - at first - social and how are memories formed by groups? (Shared experience, of course, which would then logically imply a shared series of sounds to describe the experience in question.) You'll keep seeing similar patterns because - yes - memory seems to operate the same across all human brains (well, until we mutate) but the form of expression will vary due to other, non-biological, external influences (statements of affiliation, for example). In practical, "I need to learn this language," "on the street" terms, sociolinguistics wins out over UG. In terms of theory and especially in terms of understanding how the brain processes and develops the linguistic ability and tendency, UG probably has more relevance.

      The UG vs. Sociolinguistics debate needs to be taken down a notch. Seriously. As an undergrad, I remember inadvertently wandering into a minefield and personally offending someone when I suggested something had a sociolinguistic origin. The force of the debate that ensued (filled with stated violent desires - eg. "smack some sense into you") really bothered me and made the impression that academics are rather inferior to the rest of us when it comes to dealing with conflict.

    3. Re:Shouldn't we be the group not to fall for this? by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      You know, actually, there are many linguists that reject Chomsky's theory of Universal Grammar, on all sorts of grounds. The Chomskians like to pretend like they're the only game in town, but they're far from it.

    4. Re:Shouldn't we be the group not to fall for this? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      The Chomskians like to pretend like they're the only game in town, but they're far from it.

      The joke among linguists is that belief in Chomsky's views are inversely proportional to the distance the linguist lives from MIT.

      For me, the big problems with Chomsky's approach is that (a) they try to cramp a complex, "soft" pattern of behavior into an E=mc^2 of linguistics, and (b) they aren't seriously interested in evidence-based theories.

      Regarding the latter, they're really bad about drawing big conclusions on a handful of examples, or (worse), the linguist relies on his/her own intuition about what's gramatically correct.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    5. Re:Shouldn't we be the group not to fall for this? by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      Regarding the latter, they're really bad about drawing big conclusions on a handful of examples, or (worse), the linguist relies on his/her own intuition about what's gramatically correct.

      That's frankly not as bad as the ones that answer factual objections to their "theories" by saying: "oh, that's performance, not competence." Intuition-based grammatical research is not too bad as long as (a) you're sufficiently skeptical of yourself and your informants, (b) you don't pretend that you're formulating grandiose theories that critically rely on obscure crucial examples. On (a), well, there's a lot of structures that sound completely wrong until you construct a conversational context where suddenly they sound not just fine, but obligatory. And about (b), too many linguists like to see themselves as akin to cognitive psychologists, mathematicians and physicists, and not enough like to see themselves as anthropologists.

      Let's end this with a joke. (Well, actually, my friend claims she witnessed this, so believe it if you want! But be warned that I'm embellishing.) Two Chomskians, Mary and Joe, are in a classroom, working over a problem by drawing trees in a whiteboard. Mary is contrasting language A with language B: "In A, this DP moves from here to here and this one moves from here to there, but in B, the DP moves over here instead, and the other one goes to the place where the first one goes in A."

      Joe looks at it for a minute, and asks: "So what happens in English?"

      Mary answers: "Oh, in English nothing moves!"

  26. Neal Stephenson by ThunderBird89 · · Score: 1

    I guess he was wrong when he posited Sumerian as the first language...

    --
    Hyperbole: I use it liberally!
    1. Re:Neal Stephenson by Frogg · · Score: 1

      I'm certainly no expert, but Sumerian is generally accepted as being the first written language.

    2. Re:Neal Stephenson by ThunderBird89 · · Score: 1

      Possibly, but I was referring to the novel Snow Crash.
      In Snow Crash, the mental "programs", me, written in Sumerian could also affect humans through speech (or cyberspace, for that matter), as it affected the entity at a far more basic level than acquired languages, until understanding was destroyed by a viral piece of "code" in response to a dangerous biolinguistic virus. It's comparable to binary code as opposed to high-level programming languages.

      --
      Hyperbole: I use it liberally!
  27. Actually there is a bible explanation by leuk_he · · Score: 1

    All the professor did do is to locate the the tower of babel the origin of the different languages.

  28. Go to the library... by ebh · · Score: 0

    Ook.

  29. The Language Instinct by Mybrid · · Score: 1

    If you are not an expert but would like more understanding on this topic, then I'd recommend Steven Pinker's, The Language Instinct.

    http://www.amazon.com/Language-Instinct-How-Mind-Creates/dp/0060976519

    One of his books discusses a series of experiments where babies were shown to be able to understand all phonemes but by the age of six-months only the phonemes of the parent's language are available. They did experiments with both adults and babies.

    Also, Pinker talks about a group of people with no history that linguists have posited to once exist based upon common roots in modern languages that trace back to a period in history and then stop. Kind of a missing language link of people if you will. Not sure how that fits in here.

  30. Uh, that's only 504 of the 7000 known languages... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And if you pick the right languages, you can make the "origin" of language be *anywhere* you want it to be.

  31. IANNC by seandiggity · · Score: 1

    I'm withholding judgment until I read Chomsky's thoughts on this (always a solid analysis whenever there's a claimed breakthrough in linguistics). I'm not sure how much weight to place on conclusions drawn from computational analysis of phonemes.

    --
    Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
  32. tower of babel anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what no one's heard the Tower of Babel bible story? come on guys get educated. of course it started in one place .... bible said so.....

  33. Law Suite has been filed. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

    The Intellectual Property Hostage Corporation has claimed that it has a patent on the source of all languages and every one in the world should pay it license fees. A law suite has been filed in the East Texas, listing all human beings and corporations as respondents.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  34. fresh language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hopefully, we'll be able to get our act together and stop blowing each other up (and also unite against a common enemy - government/power elites).

  35. Re:Phoneme counts and assumptions by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

    The assumption is that language started somewhere, evolved into the prototype language, and then spread from there. If that's true, they are only concerned with what happened after the prototypical language. Essentially saying "If A happens then B happens, and B happened, then A probably happened."

    What they are not saying is this is the only way it could have happened. This is support for a hypothesis, one which cannot be proven or disproven given our current level of information.

    This is no different from someone finding support for ideas of string theory. They know what they are looking for, and are trying to bolster support for it. Eventually, one such hypothesis will have piles of evidence behind it and become adopted theory. Until then, it's one opinion after the next.

    They specifically are not coming at this from a clean slate to determine what evolved from what, and have it point back to a single trunk language. As the article says, making a family tree for languages is difficult. That's why they are attacking this by forming ideas and trying to validate those ideas. Not prove, just validate.

  36. Atheist claims have other fundamental problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Atheists, of course, run afoul of the most basic assumption of science, in almost exactly the same way as religious people do. Atheists have some theory, which is fundamentally untestable (you can't prove a negative with any -limited- number of observations), and so in the real world, there will never be any real scientific support for atheism.

    At least on the religious side the debate could be settled by God. But think about it, there is no action anyone could take, not now and not ever, that could validate the claims made by atheists. That doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong, of course, but theories have been abandoned in the sciences for exactly those reasons. In all known cases, that was the right decision.

    Agnosticism, not convinced of anything, and not out to push views on anyone, is much more scientific. However given the massive contributions of Christian clergy to science, you have to admit that Christians are much more on the side of science than any other faith ever was (again it would perhaps be more accurate to say most parts of Christianity, as it is not a universally positive history). In more recent scientific history, it is also rather hard to avoid the Jewish contributions.

    1. Re:Atheist claims have other fundamental problems by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      At least on the religious side the debate could be settled by God.

      Or he who boiled for our sins.

      But think about it, there is no action anyone could take, not now and not ever, that could validate the claims made by atheists.

      And they say the most hurtful things about the Pastafarians too. They can't prove that either.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    2. Re:Atheist claims have other fundamental problems by Sperbels · · Score: 1

      Most atheists I know don't argue that there is no god. They simply lack a belief in it. You've been listening to too many Christian windbags who try to make atheists into some kind of anti-christian crusaders.

    3. Re:Atheist claims have other fundamental problems by duh+P3rf3ss3r · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid this is just silly.

      There is a very simple action that would invalidate the claims of atheists: that would be for a god, any god, to reveal himself in some obvious, unequivocal, unmistakable way. Like, pop up on the nightly news and heal an amputee or something.

      The theists, on the other hand, are the ones making the unfalsifiable claims. They're the ones claiming that there exists a sky fairy who chooses to keep himself hidden from man and whose presence can only be intimated by reading an ancient book or books with the aid of some sort of secret decoder ring.

      Please, put aside your rancour for a second and tell me, truthfully, which side is making a claim which cannot be falsified...

      Oh, wait, you're an AC. I should have known better than respond because you're only here to make yourself feel like you're too good to be living in mommy's basement among piles of pizza boxes and soiled Kleenex.

      --
      Give a man a match: warm him for an instant. Douse him in petrol and set him aflame: warm him for the rest of his life.
    4. Re:Atheist claims have other fundamental problems by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      you're attacking a strawman.

      I think it best I explain using the words of Sagan.

      "A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

      Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

      "Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.

      "Where's the dragon?" you ask.

      "Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

      You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

      "Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

      Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

      "Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

      You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

      "Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

      Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so. The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility. Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative -- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

      Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons -- to say nothing about invisible ones -- you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.

      Now another scenario: Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages -- but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren't myths at

    5. Re:Atheist claims have other fundamental problems by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Most Atheists I know do argue that there's no god. They believe that the properties ascribed to such an entity are in contradiction with the perceived reality. Or that the properties ascribed to such an entity are logically inconsistent. Either of which is enough for an active belief that there can be no god.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    6. Re:Atheist claims have other fundamental problems by Sperbels · · Score: 1

      Maybe the word believe is not specific enough in this case. I do not believe a god exists...especially not a benevolent man with a beard sitting in the clouds style god. But to me, that is not a statement that a god does not exist. If someone approached me and ask me if I believed that gray aliens were visiting the earth, I would say no. I've never seen any terribly convincing evidence that they are and I would make arguments as to why this is improbable. That doesn't mean I'm stating for a fact that they are not. It was to this statement of absolute certitude that the poster was using to attack atheists, and to which I was speaking.

    7. Re:Atheist claims have other fundamental problems by 49152 · · Score: 1

      +1 Insightful

  37. I believe this explains German PR adequately... by denzacar · · Score: 1

    The French must have better PR.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoLIU2NI66w#t=1m07s

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  38. Raw data? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    where can I get raw data to make my own best fit of 504 languages?
    and of course computer akaike information criterion.

  39. i thought the orign were based on 3 languages by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FORTRAN. COBOL and ALGOL

  40. Super Volcano Toba by loom_weaver · · Score: 1

    I was watching this on the History Channel just yesterday.

    In a nutshell, there is a theory that the super volcano Toba erupted about 75000 years ago and reduced the human population down to approximately 500 mating pairs in Africa. In addition to reducing the average temparature by 15 degrees and causing a volcanic winter and, it also caused a genetic bottleneck. This bottleneck explains the apparant lack of diversity of the human genome.

    If correct, this theory is also a good explanation for the language tracing.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

  41. Doh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ya know, Humans and rocks are made up of atoms, apparently we are atomic cousins. Maybe we should all pitch in an form an organization for the Ethical Treatment of Rocks (PETR) and stop blast mining all those poor little rocks to death. No wait... the tree huggers are rock huggers already... there goes my idea!

    At the end of the day, the more you dig into the root of anything the easier it is to make the assumption that they share common ancestry, even if ancestry is completely unshared it will be assumed. One need not look any farther than patent/copyright lawsuits! Several people the world over consistently come up with the same idea even after never having heard it from another source, but because its first come first serve the genuine discovery of another is ignored in lieu of the first discovery. They can share very common roots because the ideas are so similar, but they are still uniquely born of different origin. No matter how much everything changes its still all the same!

  42. Japanese-Korean relationship not just putative by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    ... right now, it's not really much better than most of the fringe notions of language, like Germanic substrate hypothesis, and the putative relationship between Korean and Japanese.

    I agree with most of why you're saying here. However, the relationship between Japanese and Korean is only "fringe" for political reasons. Any serious look at the two languages makes it clear that they are indeed related -- the question is, how.

    Interestingly, not only are Japanese and Korean grammars extremely similar (not decisive a match, by any means), but we also begin to find shared vocabulary -- though admittedly not as much as we'd like, it's also important to realize that these two linguistic and ethnic groups were last intimately connected around 400 AD, before either group used any writing system with phonetic fidelity (both used Chinese, not just the characters but also essentially the language, when writing). It's not very well known, but the Japanese government (such as it was then) sent something like 40,000 soldiers to the support of the Baekje kingdom, one of Korea's "Three Kingdoms", and when the Baekje regime fell, the Baekje upper classes and nobles just moved to Japan and were accepted into the Japanese court. This suggests some very strong ties.

    Moreover, we *do* know that the big Korean dialectical groups (Silla, Goguryeo, Baekje) were already distinct enough to pose communication problems in the Three Kingdoms period, with modern Korean tracing its lineage back to the Silla kingdom -- which beat out the Baekje. Much later, Korean underwent a major sinicization around the Middle Korean period, 1400-1800 or so, where native Korean words fell out of use and were replaced by imported vocabulary from Chinese.

    Yet despite so much historical room for divergence, we can still find plenty of cognates if we just look. I'm not steeped enough in the older forms of either language to be able to trace things back as far as I'd like, but I can certainly begin to rule out more recent imports, like gudu in Korean for "shoes", which apparently was borrowed from Japanese kutsu. If we can find not just isolated cognates in both languages, but whole clusters, that would support the argument for a common linguistic ancestry. And there do appear to be such clusters.

    By way of background, I'm a Japanese-English translator with a penchant for looking into etymologies and word formation. Japanese has a number of interesting semantic clusters that don't get talked about much, word groupings like maru / muru / moru, or naru / noru. Korean has words of similar meanings that cluster around similar consontants and vowels.

    • J: naru, "to be born", "to become", matching with nasu as the transitive, "to bear", "to produce"
      K: nada, "to be born", "to appear or arise", matching with nahta as the transitive, "to lay (an egg)", "to give birth"
    • J: noru, "to be on top of something else", matching with nosu as the transitive, "to put something on top of something else"
      K: nohita, "to be laid or put", as the passive of nohta, "to place on something", "to cast"

    There seem to be other clusters as well, such as around J mura / maru / muru / moru, "village / round / gather, group / cluster together", all relating to ideas of togetherness, and K maeul / malda / moeuda, "village / roll up / come together".

    Then there are groups of cognates that begin to show clear sound shifts:

    • J: hoshi, "star"
      K: byeol
    • J: ashi, "leg / foot"
      K: bal
    • J: hachi, "bee"
      K: beol
    • J: mizu, "water"
      K: mwul (attested in some dialects as mil)

    For beginnings, there's a pretty clear J "h" -- K "b" shift going on, with some exceptions like for J ashi. However, Old Japanese apparently began many words with "p" that later morphed int

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
    1. Re:Japanese-Korean relationship not just putative by theolein · · Score: 1

      But what about vowel harmony? No theory on Korean/Japanese relationships is complete without a discussion of their relationship with Altaic etc. :D

    2. Re:Japanese-Korean relationship not just putative by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      I didn't say that the two weren't related. I call it putative, because there is no good scientific theory about how their relationship exists. This isn't just political. We can totally look at the two and notice similar grammars, and some similar words, but they could have just been a Sprachraum.

      Until someone can demonstrate HOW they are related (and you admit that we don't know this), the relationship is putative.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    3. Re:Japanese-Korean relationship not just putative by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

      Hm, forgive me then, it appears I misunderstood your use of "putative" to mean that the existence of the relationship itself was in doubt, possibly due to your mention of "fringe" earlier in your post. And I have had people argue with me that Korean and Japanese are completely unrelated, and that any similarities are purely accidental -- which strikes me as precious close to dogmatically delusional, or ideally just woefully misinformed. I thus wasn't sure at first how to interpret your post; after posting my reply, I read further down the thread, and I now see you've got your head firmly attached, and where it belongs, not stuck anywhere dark and unpleasant. :)

      Cheers,

      --
      "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
      "A four-foot prune."
    4. Re:Japanese-Korean relationship not just putative by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Hm, forgive me then, it appears I misunderstood your use of "putative" to mean that the existence of the relationship itself was in doubt, possibly due to your mention of "fringe" earlier in your post.

      Well, when you say "in doubt", it is in doubt... it's just widely accepted that it's highly unlikely that two languages so close to each other physically, and reasonably similar in grammar are entirely unrelated.

      It's precisely because the Japanese-Korean language family tree is likely that tons of linguists have been clamoring to try and prove it, but any theories suggesting that such a relationship exists are deeply flawed, and we are left with the scientific position that suggesting such a language family is still little better than pure speculation.

      And I have had people argue with me that Korean and Japanese are completely unrelated, and that any similarities are purely accidental -- which strikes me as precious close to dogmatically delusional, or ideally just woefully misinformed.

      Well, this is the current position of scientific consensus. Assuming that the languages are related at this point might be reasonable for the average lay person, but scientifically it's just really bad form to claim that they are related. We can show that Hungarian, Finnish, and Mongolian are all related, and they're separated by tons of distance, but yet we cannot seem to match up Japanese and Korean...

      While it's wrong for someone to say that they're definitively not related (because this is unlikely) it is also wrong for someone to claim that they definitely are related.

      And as it stands, no one has a better explanation for why Japanese and Korean are similar other than coincidence. And without any convincing evidence, the only reasonable hypothesis is the null-hypothesis: that the two languages are unrelated, and similarities are either coincidence or contact borrowings (Sprachraum).

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
  43. Population movements and feature erosion by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    Phonemic change does not happen on an individual human lifespan... precisely because the older generations lock in linguistic features of language while they are alive. Language experiences less Mendelian evolution than you think it does.

    It's also worth noting the effects on a language of population movements beyond just the founder effect -- what happens when two distinct linguistic populations collide?

    Languages spoken by folks who move around a lot and interact with speakers of many other languages seem to undergo a kind of erosion, where extreme difficulties in the languages (be it grammar or pronunciation, and always relative to the speech communities involved) are simplified. Meanwhile, languages spoken by folks who don't get around much and don't have a lot of contact with speakers of other languages tend to keep (or perhaps even elaborate on) complexities that would not survive in a higher-traffic environment. This is all broadly speaking, of course. :)

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  44. Homeworld by Meneth · · Score: 1

    And on the stone was etched a single word, more ancient than the clans themselves.

    Hiigara. Our home.

  45. Vowel harmony in Japanese and Korean by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    I've read that Old Japanese probably had seven or eight vowels as opposed to the five in modern Japanese, as referenced over on the Wikipedia article. The distribution of apparent vowels and how they seem to have been used is viewed by some as evidence of vowel harmony, which later disappeared as the language lost vowel sounds.

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  46. Some form of leveling? by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

    There is no argument by Atkinson that all language change is monotonic or predictable. But the observation that, on average, phoneme diversity increases with speaker population size and decreases with distance from Africa both seem true.

    Based on what? His statistics that shows extremely high variance? I bet he would be laughed out of any statistics department trying to extrapolate the linear model that he demonstrates. And let's not forget, that Navajo traveled a significantly longer distance from Africa than Hawaiian did, why does Navajo though have about 33 some consonants while Hawaiian only has 8?

    I'm certainly not trying to argue for the paper, but my guess is that the strongest argument for a trend toward phonological simplification is some form linguistic leveling tied to migration and contact between speakers of different varieties. Creolistics provides the most extreme examples of this; pidgins and creoles tend toward relatively simple phonological systems because they result from a sort of compromise between speakers of very different languages, and they fall back toward making fewer phonological distinctions because many of the community members can't hear them anyway.

    Leveling also happens between speakers of different dialects of the same language when they migrate and intermix (see, e.g., the relative dearth of variation between New World dialects of Old World languages, or even just USA east vs. west coast), though I'd have to check to what extent that involves simplification as opposed to just convergence. (New World Spanish is certainly no less complex phonologically than most Andalusian Spanish).

    So if this is the case, smaller number of phonemes would indicate intense contact between languages that are dramatically different.

    This is still hella speculative at best, and I don't doubt you'll agree.

  47. Ok, I RTFA'd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Two things that bother me about this.
    1) If in fact African languages have a wide range of phonemes, wouldn't that put them at the centre of a web of languages based on phonemes simply due to a high number of interconnections? This doesn't seem to necessarily imply origin to me, just a high hit rate.

    2) Perhaps smaller languages, older ones, have more phonemes just due to fewer speakers. Pidgins tend to be simpler languages to facilitate intercommunication. Perhaps modern languages, which spread to wide areas, were pared down to allow easier adoption.

  48. bad methodology, obvious answer by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

    Unless you want to hypothesize that language was not invented until after our ancestors left Africa, it's obvious that all languages stem from a source in Africa.

    But his use of phonemes is ludicrous. Related languages often have very different phoneme sets. Take French and Hindi, for example. (And those are *closely* related, when considering all of the world's languages.)

    This is as bad as Greenberg's mass comparison method; maybe worse.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  49. Gaining a phoneme is easy by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

    Additionally, with phonemes the act of losing one seems to require a much lower effort than creating one.

    Just think about how hard it is to learn a new phoneme as an adult from a different culture. If you didn't acquire it from another culture to speak *their* language, why would you ever go to that effort, and how likely would it be you convince other people to do it as well?

    As opposed to losing a phoneme - we can all think of examples of shortening words or sounds, or just being lazy with pronunciation.

    It's less that a founder group is likely to consist most of people who slur something, and more that in isolation it is much easier to lose sounds than it is to gain them.

    snowgirl's response is quite right, but I feel like I can add an example and a bit of explanation that shows how this whole "getting a new phoneme is hard" is just not true.

    The thing is that a phoneme is not a "sound"; a phoneme is a grouping of sounds, which makes them all equivalent for the purpose of a language. Sound is continuous; phonemes are a partition of sounds into discrete units. So there are sounds that are different as sounds but which a language will treat as the same phoneme; the term for such pairs of sounds is allophones. The most famous example is quite likely the fact that native speakers of Chinese, Japanese and Korean have a hard time with the "r" and "l" sounds; in their languages, those sounds are variants of just one phoneme. Correspondingly, Spanish distinguishes two "r" phonemes where English has only one, and thus the sounds that Spanish treats as distinct phonemes are merely allophones in English.

    This is at the heart of how a language can develop a new phoneme. What happens is that what was formerly two allophones of the same phoneme, after some changes, become two distinct phonemes.

    Now on to the example: in Spanish, the pronunciation of many vowels varies slightly depending on what type of syllable they occur. An "o" in a open syllable (one that ends in a vowel) is pronounced differently from an "o" in a closed syllable (one that ends in a consonant). In many dialects of Spanish, there is an independent phenomenon where an "s" at the end of a syllable variable pronounced either as "s", as an aspiration (English "h" sound), or not pronounced at all. And then there are these really odd dialects in southern Spain where the loss of "s" at the end of a syllable is so severe that the vowel allophones have become phonemes; the difference between la niña ("the girl") and las niñas ("the girls"), which in standard Spanish is carried by the "s" (or the aspiration), is now carried by a phonemic distinction between open and closed "a" sounds.

    And in general, creation of new phonemes follows this pattern, which I will summarize:

    1. An original phoneme X has allophone x in context 1, x' in context 2.
    2. The language changes so as to eliminate the difference between contexts 1 and 2.
    3. The former allophones x and x' now become distinct phonemes.
  50. DUH! What the hell! by pclminion · · Score: 1

    Suppose it was NOT the case that all human languages reach back to a common ancestor language. Then one or both of two things must be true:

    1. Disparate groups of humans developed language independently of each other
    2. Language was developed in one place, then language was lost, and somehow developed again in two or more places.

    I mean, come on, how likely are either of those theories? It makes about as much sense as humans evolving more than once independently of each other.

  51. The bottlenecks seem to be key by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

    There is no argument by Atkinson that all language change is monotonic or predictable. But the observation that, on average, phoneme diversity increases with speaker population size and decreases with distance from Africa both seem true. These observations support the hypothesis that language spread out from a single origin in Africa , going through multiple bottlenecks that left this specific pattern of change.

    I think this "bottlenecks" part is helping me understand the paper's argument a lot better (though I do have to look it up, I know; I just don't want to pay to read it). Perhaps a required element is that that several of these bottlenecks must have involved substantial contact between very different languages. In this case, a bottleneck is necessary but not sufficient; the thing that generates the trend toward simplification, is that the language spoken by a founding population can either be the result of normal language change (which doesn't trend very obviously toward either simplification or complexity), or of a creole-like event (which does tend toward simplification).

    I still don't know how to fit the speaker population size factor into this, though.

  52. Journey of Man by colonel+spalding · · Score: 1

    If one googles "Journey of Man" we see that mitonchondrial studies also show that the origin of man was from that area and branched out to all points so it makes sense that language followed along.

  53. GREEK is the mother of all languages by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is structured in a strict mathematical way, a true marvel of this world and a legacy to all of us. Only by expressing thoughts in greek, the brain is stimulated like in no other language, no offense.
    , , .

  54. cognitive vs. other linguistics by nobodie · · Score: 1

    There has been and continues to be lively debate and strong belief/opinion surrounding issues of the relationship between language and the brain/ thought process/ consciousness. While a statistical analysis is one way to provide fodder for the debate, as well as ancillary debates concerning origin(s) these things are of little practical concern currently. The people who get wrapped up in them tend to need a life or another research topic. If linguists want something to reasonably get passionate about we fuss about the current loss of languages every year and the resulting loss of cultural identity which language provides. We are becoming a race without core cultural values that came from the previous linguo-cultural centers that we called "home."

    Another issue I prefer to worry about is that with the numbers of people who are growing up without a "home culture" there are also large numbers of people who don't seem to be developing deep language/ thought/ processing skills because they speak many languages but none well, none with the ability to do high level analysis and come to creative solutions to even simple everyday problems. Michael Agar pointed to this in his book "Language Shock" when he described a student who spoke a number of languages, including English, but none of them well enough to express himself academically. I work with students who are required to speak English and use English in an "English as a Medium of Instruction" environment, but these students cannot organize their ideas logically in any language, much less a second language.

    So, while armchair folks might want to care about origins, they have little value when the present is full of major and important worries regarding language.

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    Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
  55. Phoneme counts (minor edit) by Pete+from+NYC · · Score: 1

    Why would older languages have more phonemes and not less?

    I think that the increase in variations of a source relates to Darwinian evolution. For instance, corn is from the Americas and moved to Europe after Columbus. And if you look at the varieties of corn in the USA there are a certain number. But if you look at South America, there are many more types of corn. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080627163156.htm

    The greater amount of variation indicates the origin.

    This is also true for genetics. There is the greatest variation of genes in Africa, and fewer, say, in subset migrations, e.g. Greenland. ["Africans have world's greatest genetic variation "] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30502963/ns/technology_and_science-science/

  56. English by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought it was interesting that English sits really close to the mean.

    My theory about the decrease in phonemes is that as a language spreads and is adopted by more speakers it gets simplified, and complications disappear.

  57. Language isolates by Frogg · · Score: 1

    I'd like to know how on this grand scheme languages such as Basque are reconciled? - along with a couple of other languages, the Basque language is classified as a language isolate. Although most of these have become isolates in fairly recent history (and therefore shouldn't be too hard to link to a language 'tree') Basque is a tricky one because it's been an isolate for as long as it has been recorded, and does not share its roots with other Indo-European languages.

    I read the article (for once) but it didn't go anywhere near those kinds of details - which I find kinda odd: I would've thought when it comes to grand unifying theories of language that linguists would've been all over the issue of isolate languages like a rash.

    The chart/diagram in the Economist article did have Basque on it - 'near' Greek and Russian.

    Sure it's a damned interesting idea to be able to link all languages to a common source -- but the article makes it seem as though this one all boils down to plotting languages according to similarities, and then best-fitting a line across the chart. I hope there's a lot more to it than that -- otherwise it's not really a discovery, but merely an interesting hypothesis in my book.

    (for those interested Wikipedia on Basque language history)

  58. A Very Interesting Article by Cardhu · · Score: 1

    This discovery dovetails neatly with the National Geographic Genographic Project. The Genographic Projects reveals through our human DNA that humans originated in Africa and populated the rest of the world in multiple great migrations starting about 60,000 years ago.

    These great migrations are described on a virtual globe of the Earth on the Genographic Project website under the "Atlas of the Human Journey" tab.

    Christian theology holds that God and His Creation are Truth. Those who assert that the geological, cosmological, and genetic records are false creations by God to test believer's faith label God a liar and make Him into a cheap parlour magician. Creationism is no more christian than it is scientific, but rather simply so uneducated, illogical, and unfaithful as to be unable to recognize its own inherent contradictions.

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    - Cardhu