Why Science Is a Lousy Career Choice

Think before making your career choice by Opportunist · 2011-04-25 05:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

Think. Which job position will get outsourced more likely? Engineering or managing? Before you answer, consider: Managers make that decision.

Do I need to write anything more?

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Re:Think before making your career choice by Anonymous Coward · 2011-04-25 05:45 · Score: 3, Insightful

This demonstrates the common strategy to achieve failure:
But the problem is more general than one of outsourcing.
As a company grows, it grows from a few engineers to engineers plus managers, to engineers plus managers plus managers of managers.
As a company shrinks, it often shrinks from the bottom, because the decision power is top down.
So a common failure state is a company full of managers, with no-one to do the work.
The upside down pyramid structure will inevitably fall.
Whether staff is reduced or outsource, the result is the same.
Of course with outsourcing, the pretense is that the US management can sit on top of a larger remote pyramid, but eventually either the remote headless pyramid fails because of missing local management, or the remote pyramid becomes the company because it is effectively self contained.
Re:Think before making your career choice by jimicus · 2011-04-25 05:48 · Score: 4, Interesting

If car manufacturing in the UK is anything to go by, the cycle works a bit like this:
1. Companies outsource manufacturing to cheap overseas country.
2. Manufacturing more-or-less collapses in UK.
3. The UK now has a large number of skilled workers who have experience building cars and a shortage of work for them. It's fair to assume they'll work for slightly less than they used to demand, and shipping cars is remarkably expensive. So a number of foreign manufacturers set up factories in the UK.
4. Manufacturing brightens up - though the factory owner is no longer a British company.
Examples: BMW manufacture the Mini in the UK. (They also manufacture a number of engines. Yes - the UK ships car engines to Germany for BMW cars!)
Toyota, Honda and Nissan also have factories in the UK.
Re:Think before making your career choice by jimicus · 2011-04-25 06:17 · Score: 2

So what you're saying is the workers who got sacked now have new jobs without having to re-train significantly. Their managers, OTOH, are SOL.
Don't see the problem there.
Re:Think before making your career choice by Thud457 · 2011-04-25 06:24 · Score: 2

This is exactly what happened in the US. We can still afford to build cars here, Honda, BMW, Subaru, Kia & others do so. It's just the American-owned companies that chronically can't seem to cut it. Some people would point out that Detroit manufacturers had a union workforce, while the foreign companies steered clear of that situation. The people building the cars stays the same, it's just where the profits go that changes.

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the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Re:Think before making your career choice by vuke69 · 2011-04-25 06:42 · Score: 2

Headhunter?

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Re:Think before making your career choice by bware · 2011-04-25 07:05 · Score: 4, Informative

Tariffs played a large role in this. Honda et al. can avoid paying tariffs if some large fraction of the car is manufactured/assembled here. Otherwise there's as much as a 25% tariff. For years the Japanese could make cars cheaper than Americans, so this didn't matter, but then when prices started approaching parity, they started moving factories over here to get around it.
The tariff on trucks was much higher, and that's why there were no full-sized Japanese trucks in the US until the laws changed around 1999. The Japanese manufacturers lobbied hard to get those changed (and the US companies lobbied hard against it - some deal was made) so Toyota/Nissan could compete in the very profitable F150 market, and traded off moving entire factories here to get it.
Re:Think before making your career choice by Opportunist · 2011-04-25 07:19 · Score: 2

Personally, I see this as more beneficial since the purchasing power stays in the pockets of those that do the consumption. Supporting a US company that is nearly completely outsourcing its manufacturing is certainly worse for the national economy since the wages go abroad.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Think before making your career choice by teg · 2011-04-25 07:24 · Score: 2

The owners. "Outsourcing management" is called "starting the business elsewhere", which many do.
Re:Think before making your career choice by TopSpin · 2011-04-25 08:10 · Score: 3, Informative

This is exactly what happened in the US.
The grandparents hypothetical 'cycle' had nothing to do with the presence of foreign auto manufacturers in the US.
During the late 70's and early 80's 'domestic content' laws and regulations were both enhanced and created in the US that assess tariffs on imported autos based on the percent of value add by foreign vs. domestic industry. As a result, multiple plants opened (and remain open) in southern US by the late 80's. By 1989 all imported autos were subject to these content requirements. Trucks and SUVs were eventually reclassified (yes, these demands were met) to fall under this regime as well.
The Reagan administration also negotiated hard limits on Japanese imports. Annual caps on imports were voluntarily agreed to between the US and Japan. Reagan also applied heavy tariffs on imported motorcycles; he noted in his memoirs that the only remaining US motorcycle manufacturer was on its last legs at the time. Today that company is healthy and once again has domestic competition.
The reason, the only reason, any foreign auto manufacturers pay for US labor is to avoid heavy tariffs. This paradigm was established back when the US had leaders willing to leverage the fact that importers needed the US more than the US needed the importers.
Which president most recently granted MFN status to China and signed NAFTA?
Look it up. Learn something. There is no need to resort to speculation and theory about why things are as they are; there is actual history one may study.

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Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
Re:Think before making your career choice by jimbolauski · 2011-04-25 08:51 · Score: 2

You forgot about the third option when it is time to downsize. Acquire small company with profitable ratio of engineers to managers, relocate some of your extra managers to the formally profitable company making it barely profitable and making the larger company profitable, repeat until too large to fail then stop spending money on buying successful companies and start spending money on buying politicians.

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Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
Re:Think before making your career choice by russotto · 2011-04-25 12:48 · Score: 2

This is exactly what happened in the US. We can still afford to build cars here, Honda, BMW, Subaru, Kia & others do so. It's just the American-owned companies that chronically can't seem to cut it.

To be fair, Ford can.

Reward by internerdj · 2011-04-25 05:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

The reward of solving a problem through hard work and proper application of knowledge is the feeling at the end. That is why young American's still choose to do it. There are a number of hurdles to get addicted to that feeling, not the least of which is that I can probably make more money doing something else.

Re:Reward by joocemann · 2011-04-25 05:59 · Score: 2

That is true for the people that stick with it.
Americans could be more greatly innovative and productive, but globalization and our lack of protective tarriffs..... well.... now outsourcing and insourcing has pretty much washed what 'value' is left of our educated and skilled workers in the US.
When rent is $100/month in India, its very easy for someone in India to take $5k a year pay. When it is $1500/month in the US, and there is now an overabundance of willing-to-work scientists due to pushing STEM education and not protecting with tax on imported labor, you end up with scientists who can barely afford to get by, and yet feel lucky to even have a job due to the scarcity.
It's a shame. Biotech truly *is* the next wave of technological revolution. But because the US does nothing to protect its human resources/assets, pandering to the corps that want more labor for cheap, only the few that come up with ideas in the US are getting paid, while so much is being carried out elsewhere (or devalued in-house so a B.S Biochemist makes as much as an ace hardware sales rep).
Re:Reward by chispito · 2011-04-25 06:24 · Score: 2

The reward of solving a problem...
This only holds up if you assume that "How do I pay for my kids' braces?" or "How can I make a living off the labor of others?" are not satisfying problems to solve.

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Because hedge fund managers are asshats by sdguero · 2011-04-25 05:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

That is my main reason for sticking to Engineering.

Sales guys, stock brokers, marketing people... Those positions are not rewarding, and you have to leave your soul at the door. Science, Engineering, Construction, Mechanics are the jobs for me. Always will be. I couldn't live with myself knowing that my livelyhood came on the back of others, earned by shiesting a percentage out of something I didn't build because I shuffled some paperwork and talked on the phone. Those people live empty soulless lives. They cheat on their partners. And they drive like assholes on the freeway.

Re:Because hedge fund managers are asshats by dkleinsc · 2011-04-25 05:54 · Score: 2

Another way of describing it: Sales guys, stock brokers, marketing people, managers, accountants, and a lot of other people are professional liars. They operate in an environment where people are constantly lying to them, and they in turn are constantly lying to others. When you're lying at least 40 hours a week, then lying to your friends, family, spouse, or children becomes a lot easier.
Engineers, scientists, etc by contrast are in an environment where attempts at lying will likely be caught very very quickly.

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Re:Because hedge fund managers are asshats by sdguero · 2011-04-25 06:14 · Score: 2

Socially maladjusted and smarter-than-thou is pretty standard in Engineering. Both of which are side effects of people who live with passion. In a dark world full of people trying to get at you, passionate people tend to become jaded and feel isolated. The smart ones tend to assume everyone else is stupid.

Backstabbing and underhanded happens rarely in Engineering, and not usually by Engineers. Rather, its the people that don't have the brains to hack it, and/or don't understand the feeling of reward that comes from building something. So they become defensive and resort to that kind of behavior. In my experience they usually end up as project managers (not to say their aren't some great PMs out there).

When I see a marketing team spend $5 million to launch an ad campaign that rips off Angry Birds, a pair of Sales guys hobnobbing about the $50 lobster ravioli they expensed last week, or billions of our taxes getting redirected into some bankers' bonuses, I know in my heart that I couldn't be in their shoes without feeling fucked up about it.

I'm not a man of science. Just a simple guy with a flicker of passion left in me. If I worked in one of those fields, I wouldn't have that anymore.
Re:Because hedge fund managers are asshats by Blakey+Rat · 2011-04-25 06:29 · Score: 3, Insightful

Backstabbing and underhanded happens rarely in Engineering, and not usually by Engineers. Rather, its the people that don't have the brains to hack it, and/or don't understand the feeling of reward that comes from building something.
No true Scotsman!

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Comment of the year
Re:Because hedge fund managers are asshats by Bucc5062 · 2011-04-25 06:51 · Score: 2

I agree with you which is why I've stayed with programmer to the point where now it may hurt me. How does one change a career with an established life at 50+? The US has snipped away at the safety of risk to the point where only the financial jobs have potential, and I cannot lose my heart.
i will say though that sales, marketing, even stocks are a necessary part of the engine. We build something, that is what we do well, but to get people to buy it, in numbers takes *good* marketing, *honest* sales and the distribution stocks to continue innovation. I emphasize good and honest because that is what lacks in today's world. It is easier to lie to an uneducated populous, it is easier to sale crap to unsuspecting people and it is becoming acceptable to look the other way when people cheat on the market. As a society we don;t enforce basic laws or immoral behavior anymore. The action of sales is not bad, it is the person behind it that flavors it with morality one way or another.

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Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
Re:Because hedge fund managers are asshats by 19061969 · 2011-04-25 07:00 · Score: 3, Informative

Although I don't agree with the darkness of your picture, I can certainly understand what you mean. I speak as an ex-research fellow who saw similar things and got primarily fed up with the lack of security and lack of money. So I went into industry as a freelance 'consultant' and while job security is still lacking, the pay is way better and my ideas get treated with more respect because the people I work with are mostly interested in creating the best product. I think a bit of my soul has died since then, but I'm providing for my family and they are a darn sight more important than my career. However, my soul died a lot more in a 5* university dept, trying to hack out a career. I'd give you mod points if I had any.

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bang goes my karma... again...
Re:Because hedge fund managers are asshats by Dripdry · 2011-04-25 07:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

I'm sorry, but it shouldn't be the job you direct ire toward, it should be the people themselves and their work ethic. As a financial advisor and ex IT person, I found IT to be completely unrewarding. There was no meaningful interaction with people, I got no recognition, and the hours were awful!

Now, by working very diligently to inform my clients about their benefits, researching investments and applying strategies to help them make more money than if they'd hired me, and finally presenting it to people in a manner they will understand *follow through on* (something IT could stand to learn from), I have 1) Meaningful interaction with people, 2) occasional recognition and self-satisfaction in the short term, with long term results and recognition that i can get someone to/through retirement or their kids to college, and 3) Even longer hours. But I sort of like doing those longer hours, and I have the flexibility to tell my boss (mostly me) to shove off.

Yes, you have to talk to lots of people, and you do lose a little bit of your soul, but that happens in EVERY job out there and I dare anyone to show me otherwise.

In closing, blame charismatic lazy people (a lot of advisors) for screwing their clients out of dollars. There ARE those of us working to help everyone who will listen be educated and, one hopes, do business with us to have a better future and less worry.

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Re:Because hedge fund managers are asshats by bware · 2011-04-25 07:13 · Score: 2

Wait, you mean I can be just as unhappy being rich as I am being middle class?
I'll take rich, please.

They don't. by xanthines-R-yummy · 2011-04-25 05:20 · Score: 3, Interesting

As a relatively young MD/PhD student I've noticed that there are relatively few Americans in any of the PhD programs at my university. My perspective is from the biomedical sciences, but still. Most are Chinese or Indian students and most of the American students are already planning for industry, consulting, or some other non-research job. I would also add that e) stressing about writing grants every few years and progress reports for those grants every year - is a deterrent for continuing a career in science.

Re:They don't. by xtracto · 2011-04-25 05:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

As a Comp. Sci. PhD I have a slightly different point of view.
I went out of my country (Mexico) to do my PhD with a scholarpship from my government. However, due to the lack of jobs in my own country, I chose to stay in Europe to do a Postdoc.
In Germany at least (in the Science circles I am moving now) there is quite a lot of money for research. In fact, in my institute there is more money than researchers (because generally people do not want to live in the city where the institute is).
However, I can see that the main problem in USA is the same as in Mexico; the government wants people to study science but does not want to impulse job creation for those scientists. In the case of Mexico (and other underdeveloped countries) we have the option of going to other countries, but in the case of the USA (mainly due to cultural limitations) people may not have that option.
The problem is how can the government *impulse* such job creation. The private sector will never offer a lot of research jobs (specially theoretical research), and as someone else said, they want useful, commercial results in a very small amount of time... because they do not know how science work.
The other option is for government funded research institutes. This is how Germany research assassinations work (Max Planck, Fraunhofer, Leibniz, UFZ, Helmholz, etc...) and to a lower degree how Mexico works (Cinvestav). But in a country (like the USA) where government "control" is seen as being a bad thing, I cannot imagine this approach being accepted.

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Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'

Re:what's really going on? by Osgeld · 2011-04-25 05:21 · Score: 4, Insightful

doesn't matter how mediocre they are, why get 1 mediocre scientist in America thats going to bitch and whine about pay, when you can get 5 mediocre scientist in India who will suck your ass for cheaper all together

Deja vu by Anonymous Coward · 2011-04-25 05:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

"The average _____ that I encounter expresses bitterness about (a) low pay, (b) not getting enough credit or references to his or her work, (c) not knowing where the next job is coming from, (d) not having enough money or job security to get married and/or have children"

Same could be said substituting "teacher", or many others.

Put it another way by guspasho · 2011-04-25 05:25 · Score: 2

Basically, honest labor is so passe. Why would anyone choose to do it when you can make so much more money through corruption and fraud, and theft? It's so much easier and more rewarding!

Re:Put it another way by MickyTheIdiot · 2011-04-25 05:35 · Score: 2

I've been talking a lot about this with my family lately... the culture in the U.S. is so screwed up right now that people almost always get punished for doing what is morally and ethically right while people that ignore those rules almost always get rewarded. Let's face it, knowing that you "did the right thing" doesn't put food on the table or assure a decent retirement... at least not in our age. It certainly doesn't make a corporate loyal to you if you live in the corporate world.
Japan has such a successful corporate culture and they aren't like this at all. The CEO gets on his knees and begs forgiveness if he has to do something like lay off workers that have devoted their working lives to the organization. In the use this is done with no remorse and at the blink of an eye. The U.S. has lost all sense of right and wrong and sacrificed it on the altar of a corporate god.
Re:Put it another way by strangeattraction · 2011-04-25 05:53 · Score: 2

After he begs forgiveness he lays them off anyway and has a driver take him to the driving range to relax hitting a few balls, then goes and singa karoke and drinks himself into a stupor.
Re:Put it another way by guspasho · 2011-04-25 06:01 · Score: 5, Interesting

I found this Wikipedia article rather interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development
Of the various stages of ethical development I take pride in guessing (not necessarily objectively, mind you) that I may be at stage 6 of ethical development. But take what you know of the typical corporation and they are almost always at stage 2. Only the smaller ones who have a large stake in the communities in which they operate, ie not investor-owned, and tied to a single community, even reach conventional development. I find it interesting that the justifying "philosophies" of libertarianism and objectivism would reject this model, saying that only stage 1 and stage 2 exist, stage 2 obviously being morally superior, and any further stages are still manifestations of stage 1. But our culture as well as our economy do not reward anything beyond stage 2, they disregard it or even punish it.
Re:Put it another way by WamBamBoozle · 2011-04-25 10:48 · Score: 2

wrong. He quits in disgrace. The parent's characterization of Japanese corporate culture is accurate.
There is also a much smaller wage disparity. A CEO in Japan making more than 10 times the average worker would be considered shameful. Yes -- there are CEO's capable of feeling shame left in the world.
Re:Put it another way by kikito · 2011-04-25 11:18 · Score: 2

OK.
How about not having a single supermarket vandalized for supplies, after a tsunami? And instead, getting a perfectly self-organized queues of hundreds of meters, for getting basic things like water?
Can you honestly say that the same thing would happen in your country? I can tell you in mine (Spain), it wouldn't. They are just better at this social, group thing.

Family by rogueippacket · 2011-04-25 05:26 · Score: 2

The simple answer for a lot of people is that their families tell them they should pursue a "higher career" - anything requiring multiple degrees and loaded with professional prestige. In North America, this particular idea is reinforced by High Schools which tout "University level" streams vs. "Applied level" streams, where you are either destined to become a well-educated individual with a prestigious career, or you are going to be a laborer barely living paycheck to paycheck because you didn't study enough calculus.
So long as the notion that prestige is more important than what you are passionate about, this problem will exist.

Re:Family by DrgnDancer · 2011-04-25 06:02 · Score: 2

While interesting, and perhaps somewhat true, your point is complete ancillary to the topic at hand. Both financiers and scientists have almost certainly followed a "college track" in high school and graduated with at least a bachelors, probably (almost certainly in the case of scientists) more. If anything management and finance are (slightly) easier to get into with less education than science or engineering. While it's certainly true that to a guy making 25K a year fixing cars both science/engineering and management/finance seem like laudable careers making fantastic money; this article focuses on the discrepancies between those STEM guys and the finance guys, not on how either of them compare to someone who never went to college.

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The endgame of outsourcing. by MickyTheIdiot · 2011-04-25 05:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

While there are plenty of stupid people out there, not everyone is. The smartest are moving away from these careers in droves because of these outsourcing issues. The final result of outsourcing in the messed-up corporate mind is that *everyone* will become a manager and that's the only job that holds any worth and it is the only job worth doing. It's also the only job, therefore, that deserves a living wage. If we stubbornly follow this as a country then we're is MASSIVE trouble.

Re:The endgame of outsourcing. by rolfwind · 2011-04-25 05:35 · Score: 2

Especially when the engineers/scientists/etc over in India realize that they can break away and form their own company that will undercut their former boss by not having to support his American middle/upper_management lard ass.
There are the consequences of building up your own future competition.
Re:The endgame of outsourcing. by Chemisor · 2011-04-25 05:48 · Score: 3, Insightful

Management can also be outsourced. Eventually those engineers in India will realize that having the manager in your own timezone is a good thing. It isn't like management requires years of training and heaps of intelligence. All you need is good people skills and some competence in assigning the right resources to the right problem. Most people have some of the former, and the latter can be easily learned by playing Empire Earth. Once the manager is in India, why bother having a US presence at all? The only thing it gets you is having to pay US taxes. India is not a bad place to live, when you have a job. The endgame, therefore, is to have everyone and everything move to India. The US will be populated exclusively by HFT traders, who will be too busy grabbing each other's money to notice.

Solution by Alex+Belits · 2011-04-25 05:31 · Score: 5, Interesting

Solution: destroy "financial services" industry. At this point it serves no purpose whatsoever, just sucks resources. Trade and investment can be handled without giant middlemen running their scams.

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Re:Solution by purpledinoz · 2011-04-25 06:01 · Score: 2

They did destroy themselves in 2008, but thanks to the Fed and the US govt bailouts, they were saved. Now they're bigger, more powerful, and more destructive than ever. Note that Bush started the bailouts at the beginning of the crisis, and Obama continued them. So essentially you have a two party system where both parties have the same policy on the financial system. Yay for democracy!
Re:Solution by dkleinsc · 2011-04-25 06:12 · Score: 2

That's not entirely true, as satisfying as it would be.
If I'm, say, a college president with a background in history, charged with among other things managing a large endowment, I'm going to hire some folks who know what they're doing to handle the finances. I'll have them vetted and watched by the people in my college that understand economics and business and finance and stuff, but in the end I'm going to need a financial services provider to handle it. Same story goes for anybody inheriting huge sums of cash, or finds themselves suddenly incredibly wealthy because they're Steve Wozniak or something. They have to watch their financial services providers carefully, but they'd be idiots not to hire somebody to take care of it.
What that does mean is that Joe Schmoe doesn't need a full-service broker to manage his day-to-day trading, but those finance guys do provide real services to people.

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Re:Solution by Alex+Belits · 2011-04-25 06:18 · Score: 2

In 2008 no one could predict when exactly they will destroy themselves, so when shit hit the fan, the fan was spinning and we all were still standing around it. So government converted the fan into a shit pump, as that was the only thing that could be done at that point without being prepared to get rid of the shit.
If the government will know when it is going to happen (because it will orchestrate it), thing will go into a completely different direction.
Of course, US government will be the last on Earth to do that, but such course of action is not just the only reasonable way to deal with this situation, it's inevitable. Just as inevitable as Catholic Church losing its complete control over science, culture and politics in Europe when development of science and culture had to go ahead -- it just taken a truly disgusting amount of time then.

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Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:Solution by Alex+Belits · 2011-04-25 06:25 · Score: 2

Average Americans can go jump off a cliff -- this is a job for a government. It's not like government ever cared what average American thinks.

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Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:Solution by tacokill · 2011-04-25 06:43 · Score: 2

Ha! You might as well go fight a war on jealousy. Destroy the financial services industry? Is this supposed to be serious? This isn't Fight Club and you aren't Tyler Durden.

Ok, I'll play along just for fun....
1. What financial services would you destroy first?
2. What financial services would you leave intact?
3. Are there any necessary financial services according to your model of "how things work"?
4. What would you replace this system with that would work better?
Re:Solution by Alex+Belits · 2011-04-25 08:37 · Score: 2

Do you understand that all those "jobs" and "salaries" are nothing but decisions made by people as a result of a situation made by other people? That overwhelming majority of "jobs" in finance exists for one reason -- to allow financial company steal profits from everyone else? They are your enemies, not your company's competitors. They create a situation when it's a bad choice to pay scientists and engineers (or anyone, really) more than idiotic starvation-level wages that are paid now -- because they starve everything productive.

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Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.

Pot calling kettle by Chemisor · 2011-04-25 05:31 · Score: 5, Funny

Tell us, Mr.President, why did you major in law instead of engineering?

Well, crap. by heypete · 2011-04-25 05:34 · Score: 2

Now you tell me!

I got my bachelor's in physics in 2010. I've been doing IT work to fill the gaps until I go to graduate school. Fortunately, I got into the schools that I was looking for (any Slashdotters in Switzerland that want to get a beer sometime in the next few years? I'll be in Bern.), so I'm a bit excited. Moving from the US to Switzerland will be a refreshing change, and will allow my wife and I to fulfill our our love of travel (in our copious free time, naturally).

I suspect that science in Europe will be about as bitter as science in the US, but it'll be a different kind of bitter!

Re:Well, crap. by EricWright · 2011-04-25 05:42 · Score: 2

I suspect that science in Europe will be about as bitter as science in the US, but it'll be a different kind of bitter!
I'm guessing it will be more of a hoppy bitter than a bilious bitter ;-)

Re:what's really going on? by paiute · 2011-04-25 05:35 · Score: 5, Insightful

And these days, that Chinese or Indian scientists will probably be of higher calibre than the American.

You obviously don't work in the sciences.

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Re:what's really going on? by Bill+Dimm · 2011-04-25 05:38 · Score: 2

or just that we have too many mediocre science grads

If that were the problem, you would expect the mediocre ones to be the ones leaving science due to not being able to get jobs, but that's not the case. If you look at the science people working in finance, they're mostly Ivy League. They aren't leaving science because they can't find jobs in science. They're leaving because they can have a much better life doing something else. Society benefits greatly from scientific discoveries, often for many decades after the scientists making the discoveries are dead, but society values scientists very little. Scientists that are flexible enough to do something else eventually figure this out and leave science.

Re:what's really going on? by ThatMegathronDude · 2011-04-25 05:40 · Score: 3, Interesting

Those Chinese or Indian scientists are likely to have been educated over here.

Depends what you value by macwhizkid · 2011-04-25 05:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

I work as a research associate at a name brand school. I've seen this article cited a few times, usually by discouraged graduate students.

For me, I guess it all comes down to what you want out of life. Greenspun's argument basically comes down to the fact that science/tech is at risk of being outsourced, and people should instead be real-estate agents, doctors, and lawyers. Well, news flash, lawyers are being replaced with software, many doctors want a career switch, and real-estate agents, well, I'm not even going to go there. I just find it too insulting to compare somebody who's chosen to advance humanity's exploration of the world we live in with somebody who wants to make a quick buck by match-making sellers and buyers. Hell, if anything, the last decade should have taught us that the internet is rapidly doing away with middlemen. Go ask your local bookstore/pawnshop/consumer electronics store how business has been recently.

Most people find it easier to follow in the footsteps of others (teachers at school, professional parents, etc) rather than ask the hard questions: "What am I good at?" "Will somebody pay me to do it?" "Can I be the best at what I do?"

Work is work, and nobody said work is entirely fun. If you have a job you truly enjoy every minute of every day, congratulations. Most people go their whole life without finding it. But, there is a big difference between a job with some enjoyable aspects and rewards vs. a job you truly despise.

Unionize by smoothnorman · 2011-04-25 05:51 · Score: 2

The solution to a problem of this sort is historically obvious: unionize. There have been attempts in the past, but money and self-interest neatly rendered it pathetic. If scientists could ever manage to organize, (they love meetings, why can't that ability be leveraged in a more profitable fashion?), particularly if they could emulated some of the far superior efforts made by the engineers, then you'd see dramatic change. Of course, the prospects are not good, and someone will point out that globalization will kill any such effort, but the tools (internet) are now available...

Relative income by Animats · 2011-04-25 06:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

In 1970, engineering and law paid about the same. The IEEE tracks this. Dentistry paid better. Real estate sales paid worse, on a par with auto sales.

What happened? Something few want to admit. Major parts of science are mined out. The return on investment from pure research has dropped since the 1970s. There was a long period when a small team might produce something like the tungsten-filament light bulb or the transistor. Now, it takes an army of researchers to get a minor improvement. That's why the big corporate research labs went into decline in the 1980s and are now mostly gone. Notice that high-energy physics hasn't produced much in the way of products in half a century. (Low-energy physics has produced substantial results, though.) Semiconductors have made huge progress, but huge resources were required to accomplish that. A modern wafer fab costs billions. The payoff for cleverness has declined, and salaries have declined accordingly.

(Biology is still making real progress, and has plenty of work ahead. Outside bio, though, things are slow.)

Long training with high risks by ganv · 2011-04-25 06:07 · Score: 2

Life as a scientist is great for the small number of scientists who find stable positions directing research efforts. You have respect, independence, room for a large amount of creative thinking, and a comfortable enough salary. The problem is that it is a long road that ends in a crap shoot to get one of these positions. Too many people find themselves at age 32 having completed two post-docs in a field that cooled off while they were in 10 years of training and now they have to change fields to get a permanent position.

Re:what's really going on? by joocemann · 2011-04-25 06:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

NO!

If they will do it for a quarter the pay, but live in a cheap to live area in a completely foreign land, then it has nothing to do with pricing out of teh market, but rather a lack of PROTECTIVE TARRIFFS.

The issue is that our current policy enforces corporate capitalization and does not protect human resource.

STEM is worth the bother, but we need to reinforce it by protecting it --- you tax US businesses on their imported labor. And if they don't like it, they can move to india.. Then we can tax their products instead. THIS IS NOW UNEQUAL NATIONS STAY BALANCED.

Bleh... more slashdot career flamebait by Yold · 2011-04-25 06:10 · Score: 3, Insightful

I was hoping to see some intelligent discussion of the pros/cons of choosing careers in science, but of course this is Slashdot, and all career discussions must degenerate into bashing mangers, finance, and boo-hooing the dangers of outsourcing. So let me inject some positive and rational comments into this mess.

The financial industry is full of climbers, and it sucks to work with those people. Smart people get jammed into confining roles with no ability to solve problems or exercise creativity. I know some really smart people who have left finance to return to academia, leaving behind $500K+ salaries. Almost everyone I know who works in finance/accounting hates their job or boss.

There are plenty of jobs outside of management that pay livable wages. Live within your means, and find a spouse who makes a decent living too. Americans are so damn greedy they don't understand that driving an economy car and living in a normal house doesn't mean that you are poor.

Finally, outsourcing. HAHAHAHAHA. Having seen it in action, I think it's hilarious that people feel threatened by it. Sorry folks, American and European universities still churn out the best qualified engineers in the world. The people willing to work for $5 /hr aren't nearly as competent, and you have the global economy to thank for that. Would someone please offer some evidence of a outsourcing success story?

My friends who work in science (PhD candidates, receiving full-tuition and stipends) get drunk on Tuesday nights. They travel to conferences in San Francisco and Prague. They set their own hours and work on stuff that means the world to them. There is some guidance in their research but they call the shots and decide what to research. That is pretty damn cool. One of my friends has parents who are professors and they sure do alright.

If you want to work in science, or engineering, don't listen to the Slashdot haters. There is plenty of opportunity left in this world, just work hard and get your stuff done; you can make a living doing something that you enjoy.

Re:Bleh... more slashdot career flamebait by the+eric+conspiracy · 2011-04-25 06:30 · Score: 2

Outsourcing is a threat because senior managers are under financial pressure and think engineers are a fungible commodity. They don't learn the truth until they wreck or nearly wreck their company going down that road.
If you want to see the results of outsourcing on a massive scale, Google 'Dreamliner delay'.
Re:Bleh... more slashdot career flamebait by Quiet_Desperation · 2011-04-25 07:05 · Score: 3, Interesting

Americans are so damn greedy they don't understand that driving an economy car and living in a normal house doesn't mean that you are poor.
People have a warped view of things thanks to TV, I think. Saw some cop show last year where they went to a detective's home, and she lived in some palatial apartment with a view that would impress Richard Branson.
I'm doing really well in engineering. I have my little house in a quiet neighborhood. Just bought me one of those new big MINIs. I can flex my time, and have leisure time to do what I want. But to a lot of people, because I don't live by myself in a 4000 sq ft house and have two $100K+ cars, I'm a big loser.
Re:Bleh... more slashdot career flamebait by lurker5 · 2011-04-25 07:33 · Score: 3

This is what is totally astounding to me. I have an engineering degree from a Midwestern US university and am able to afford my own townhouse, provide for my stay-at-home wife who is taking care of our 1 year old daughter, have a car (that mostly sits in the driveway), able to buy the highest end organic food, have a ton of free time, enjoy music, cinema, theater and have enough money left over for a hobby or two and save for retirement. Generally an intellectually and emotionally satisfying life. All of this despite having a 5-digit family income. What do I see around me? People who make twice as much money or more and own far more junk, who constantly complain about costs and taxes. Where does this come from? Americans need to wake up and realize they already own far more than an average person in this world. It's time to stop complaining and start living.

Re:what's really going on? by mrnobo1024 · 2011-04-25 06:12 · Score: 4, Insightful

Guess what, America? If someone else is willing to do your job for a quarter of what you are, well, they are going to get the job and you aren't going to.

I would gladly do the job of the CEO of Goldman Sachs for one hundredth of his (8-figure) pay.

But it doesn't work that way, does it? The ruling class doesn't have to worry about losing their own "jobs", simply because they're the ones calling the shots. Capitalism for the poor, socialism for the rich; that's what we have in this country.

That's what you get for pricing yourselves out of the market.

Yes, clearly it's all our fault that a Chinese or Indian salary won't even pay the rent here. Do you seriously believe that in America, a worker gets to set the price of all the things he needs to live?

America has made it's choice

The tiny portion of Americans who control the country have made their choice. The rest of us get to suffer the consequences.

Casualty of Globalization by Tablizer · 2011-04-25 06:13 · Score: 2

Just like factory and repetitious office work, sci/tech is yet another casualty of globalization. The laws of math and physics are the same in Timbuktu, yet the wages are roughly 1/4 of what they are in the USA. Obviously this makes USA sci/tech workers too expensive from an economic perspective.

Instead, STEM students are flocking to fields where security issues override labor costs, such as finance and defense. It's often too risky to offshore finance and defense because it's harder to control such information in the third world where the incentives to cheat are higher to an individual and the local legal system is generally beyond the reach of a US organization.

Brains are becoming a cheap global commodity, but security is not.

--
Table-ized A.I.

Grass is Always Greener by AtlanticCarbon · 2011-04-25 06:14 · Score: 2

I'm always amazed how every profession thinks they have it the worst. The grass is always greener on the other side. If you look at Department of Labor statistics, science and engineering is a _comparatively_ good place to be. The problem is people want the economy to reward their intelligence and overall contributions to society. That's not how it works. It works on supply and demand. There's always going to be a huge demand for people that can sell things. Does that mean you should be in sales? If you do you're not really that into science to begin with.

Most "meaningful" jobs won't pay you tons and tons of money. Maybe that's because you're getting satisfaction out of your job unlike a corporate lawyer who looks over SEC reports for 12 hours a day. I imagine this is built into the wages. As others have said, do what you enjoy.

The problem isn't the profitability of Science... by eepok · 2011-04-25 06:18 · Score: 2

We're not lacking science-trained professionals nor academics. And the problem isn't that the science-trained are going into other fields. The problem is that politicians are trying to re-purpose education to be a means of fixing the economy... which it's not.

Students and education are not factory systems into which you can blindly invest capital with a rational expectation of getting more money out the other end. It may happen, but it's not of a very high nor reliable return. And if it doesn't turn out to be particularly profitable (additional investment into STEM), will all that invested support be taken away?

STEM investment is not a silver bullet to economic woes. There is no silver bullet. STEM investment is the result of the following logic: "Something must be done. This is something. It must be done."

Over-investment in STEM comes at the cost of the humanities, arts, and physical education all of which are necessary for a healthy society. Get your heads out of your collective asses and listen to actual educators. Fund each portion of academia as necessary to prepare students for a wide variety of career and life choices. Variety and preparation, not homogeneity and mandates, will advance our civilization.

Re:what's really going on? by WrongMonkey · 2011-04-25 06:25 · Score: 5, Insightful

It isn't just that the science grads aren't good enough, its that the science itself it harder than it's ever been before. All the low hanging fruit that could be figured out by an individual or small team as already been done.

"It was a game, a very interesting game one could play. Whenever one solved of the little problems, one could write a paper about it. It was very easy in those days for any second-rate physicist to do first-rate work. There has not been such a glorious time since. It is very difficult now for a first-rate physicist to do second-rate work." -- P.A.M Dirac, DIRECTIONS IN PHYSICS, 1978, P. 7

Re:The problem isn't the profitability of Science. by vlm · 2011-04-25 06:26 · Score: 2, Interesting

Students and education are not factory systems into which you can blindly invest capital with a rational expectation of getting more money out the other end. It may happen, but it's not of a very high nor reliable return.

You need to look into the federally guaranteed student loan system. You can't discharge those loans in bankruptcy, and if by some miracle you lose anyway, the govt will make you whole. Also the rates the students pay are pretty high, at least compared to something like T-bills.

Yes the students lives are ruined as they're turned into debt serfs, but the destruction of the middle class has always been the purpose of govt, right?

Ever wonder why an education bubble is brewing? Why tuition goes up 15% per year, every year, for decades?

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger

Speaking as a male physicist by DetriusXii · 2011-04-25 06:31 · Score: 3, Interesting

I finished optimistically in my Masters in physics in 2005. I was going to take a few months off before starting my PhD to look for jobs and accept one because I was undecided about doing a PhD. I discovered that no employer was really looking for a physics education and I returned to the PhD program bitter. Being a graduate student eventually ends and ultimately, that education needs to be translated into sustainable work. Otherwise, it's just lost income opportunities by consuming time to get an education. Being able to start a family matters and being able to settle down and buy a house matters. And the people saying that science education is so valuable and so important to do aren't making those sacrifices themselves. They're the ones with their own house and vehicle and starting their family life. I ended up retraining as an accountant but I then realized I was incredibly bored after six months, so I took computer science instead and I discovered I liked it a lot more. And the material is interesting to read even outside of class. And I get job interviews too. I still think it's a challenging market as a programmer in Saskatchewan, but there's still more demand for it than in physics or engineering. Other friends who stuck it out for the PhD are now discovering that things are going awry for them. They can't find jobs and they don't have the income they thought they would. There was an article http://harvardmagazine.com/2009/11/professionalization-in-academy basically explaining that jobs that are safe are jobs that can't be shipped over the wire. The trades and the health sector seem to fit that category. There just isn't a demand for science and I cringed when I heard that the Liberals have education tax credit plans for university students. it just seems to be flooding the market with more university majors without employer demand for the degree.

What my Fluid Dynamics Prof told me years ago... by Lord+of+the+Fries · 2011-04-25 06:33 · Score: 2

"You A students, you'll be back soon teaching here with me.
You B students, you'll actually go on to be real engineers.
You C students, you'll go into management and tell the A and B students what to do."

The larger issue, that all of these comments circle around to me, is the continued decay of trust. I don't trust management. They don't trust me. What a surprise that at some point, I'd decide "if you can't beat them, might as well become one of them and get paid like one."

--
One man's pink plane is another man's blue plane.

Re:what's really going on? by memyselfandeye · 2011-04-25 06:33 · Score: 2

doesn't matter how mediocre they are, why get 1 mediocre scientist in America thats going to bitch and whine about pay, when you can get 5 mediocre scientist in India who will suck your ass for cheaper all together

And these days, that Chinese or Indian scientists will probably be of higher calibre than the American. There are still some excellent American STEM grads, but on average, their quality has been on the decline for at least a few decades.

Guess what, America? If someone else is willing to do your job for a quarter of what you are, well, they are going to get the job and you aren't going to. That's what you get for pricing yourselves out of the market. There's nothing wrong with that - it's simple economics. Either you compete with the world's best, or you suffer the loss of those industries and all that they bring to your economy.

America has made it's choice: STEM is not worth the bother. That's a valid choice to make. Over the next decades you will get to experience the consequences of your choice.

Spoken like people who don't know what their talking about. I've got a Chinese post-doc working for me right now who I'm training to take over my position after I retire. The kid is really smart, and given a couple of years will probably work out. However, right now he doesn't know how to use a screwdriver. He wants his own private parking space. He thinks the lunch hours should be standardized - he hates how I may eat at 11:00 one day and 3:00 the next. He doesn't think he gets paid enough. He doesn't know the difference between AC and DC current, a big thing in my field to not know. Finally, he wants his own office since I have my own office, which is nothing more than a communal library but I digress.

Now, he can do math like nobody's business. Nobody at my place of work, or in the department at the university we use, can do math like he can. So there's that. But he's education is just as lacking as anyone else. You do not get that PhD with a slap on the fanny and told "Congratulations, now you know everything and have nothing else to learn."

I would kill for an American post doc, however what American post doc would work for me when she can work for wall street earning 4x as much and have a lot more fun. If she still wants to do science, she can afford to do it on her own time in her own way, which is basically the science dream. If she decides she would like to become an experimentalist later on, she can return to the field without worrying about money nearly as much as my Chinese post-doc who went straight from University in China to a laboratory in America.

Re:what's really going on? by spun · 2011-04-25 06:36 · Score: 2

American CEOs haven't made that little in decades, the average is 400 to 1 now. For all enterprises, not just Fortune 500 companies, where the inequality is even greater. And Fortune 500 CEOs make that income whether they perform or not. They make money when the company is losing money. This is not about retaining the best talent in order to increase profits for the shareholders. Shareholders are patsies, especially the little shareholders who likely are only in the stock market at all because of their 401k plans. That is to say, to Fortune 500 CEOs, most of us are patsies. They won't let you into their little oligarchs club for defending them in public, you know.

--
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton

Re:what's really going on? by memyselfandeye · 2011-04-25 06:36 · Score: 2

That was certainly the experience I witnessed in both undergraduate and graduate school.

Again I'm calling BS on this, at least in science. Where I work, almost the entire graduate department seems to be Chinese. But these are smart guys, and gals. They have a lot to learn, but they earned their way here.

But the real truth for the lack of 'white' in most science departments nowadays is this; foreigners are paying full tuition. Simple stupid.

A purely self-serving speech by OverTheGeicoE · 2011-04-25 06:44 · Score: 2

This isn't the first time an American politician has encouraged students to pursue science careers, even though it takes a vow of poverty to stay in that game and the most likely outcome is being unemployable in their chosen field. American politicians also encourage people to enlist in the military and die in Afghanistan. It's equally self-serving in both cases, and when things go wrong, who suffers? Not the politicians.

Politicians keep the cost of scientific labor low with their speeches and their generous visa allotments. That's what they really want, not what's best for Americans as individuals.

Ahh, but you've missed the whole point. by Weezul · 2011-04-25 06:53 · Score: 3, Interesting

All the stock brokers are now being pulled from MIT & co.'s STEM programs. Aren't you glad knowing the guys making all that money loved science & designing things in High School?

Google & others are making significant progress towards populating marketing with the same crowd too. There is also a lively field of academic business research desperately trying to ensure that STEM majors are more qualified than undergrad business majors.

Sales may take slightly longer though. Sorry, people still love a good bullshit artist.

--
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell

Re:Counter-examples by jedidiah · 2011-04-25 06:55 · Score: 2

Middle class is about being in the middle of needing to work for your money and having your money work for you.

Most of the usual definitions of middle class that exist in cultural mythology are all about distracting various grades of the working class.

Usually a bigger house and a fancier car and a larger salary and a higher tax bracket just means you've got a bigger debt to work off.

--
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.

Re:what's really going on? by tacokill · 2011-04-25 07:01 · Score: 2

It doesn't work that way because you are completely and totally unqualified to be CEO of Goldman Sachs. That, not your ruling class diatribe, is why you will not ever be considered for that 8 figure salary, despite your willingness to take a lower salary. It has nothing to do with the ruling class or workers of the world unit or any other such nonsense you espouse.

Believe it or not Slashdot, the guys at the top are usually there for very good reasons. They are not stupid, they are not idiots, and most of them are pretty damn good at what they do.

Now please return to your normally schedule mental masturbation about greedy fat cat overlord managers and their ilk.

Re:Female perspective - yes it is a poor career. by radtea · 2011-04-25 07:03 · Score: 2

However, if I was finishing high school and going to University for the first time now I would be doing medicine not physics. There are more jobs with more security, it's better paid with better working conditions and higher socio-economic status, and just as interesting.

I'm a male who was in more-or-less your position fifteen years ago. I was a post-doc at a top-tier school in Canada and had done time at top-tier schools in the US. There were expected to be one or maybe two tenure-track positions opening up in my field over the next few years, and half of my closest friends were better qualified for them than I was. I was good, but not the best, and with so few jobs schools could afford to select the best. I had two small kids and was struggling financially.

The dot-com boom meant that anyone with a little C++ experience could get a job, and while I was primarily an experimentalist I had done enough computing to qualify. It was an enormously difficult transition, but retrospectively one of the best things I've ever done.

The advantages of a PhD in physics are many. I have run my own business doing scientific and software consulting. I have worked on a variety of intellectually challenging projects while an employee of various companies, both contract and full-time. Because my graduate school and post-doctoral experience included a lot of electronics and low-level programming, I find myself well-positioned to ride the current wave in embedded systems development. Along the way I've found opportunities to be involved in genetics research due to my experience in pattern recognition algorithms from data analysis in particle physics... and so on.

The thing I recommend to people who are thinking of doing PhDs in physics is to learn as much about business as you can. The odds are probably better that you will wind up running your own business than working as a tenured professor at a first-rank school. You have to learn to think like a businessperson (a consultant friend commented recently, "When someone asks me if something is possible, I don't say yes or no, I ask how much money is available to do it.")

There are enormous rewards to managing your own career, but like anything else you need to take a few years to learn the ropes. I worked for other people for four years before striking out on my own (during the tail end of the dot-com melt-down, as it happened... my last two employment positions were terminated by the failure of the company.)

Sit down and ask yourself what skills you have, and what further skills you need to maximize the economic value of those skills. Make yourself a plan for gaining those extra skills, which might be everything from accounting to selling. Look for volunteer opportunities that will let you practice those skills with a low cost of failure. Plan for the long haul. Remember that no one is ever going to look out for you as carefully as you look out for yourself.

You're at the start of the road now, and there are plenty of forks yet to take, if you choose. There are lots of opportunities for physicists in medicine, for example. With a PhD in physics you can, with time and effort, go to some remarkable places, and make a good living along the way, and even have a lot of time for your kids (I did, running my consulting company as a "lifestyle" business that let me have the time with them when they were in their tweens and teens.)

--
Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.

The PhD problem by Baby+Duck · 2011-04-25 07:20 · Score: 2

Ars Technica has a highly-related article

Most PhD students in the sciences (unlike those in other fields of education, such as medicine or law school) are fully funded through research assistantships, teaching opportunities, and fellowships. With so many graduates these days taking jobs they are overqualified for, some educators and economists believe this money is simply being wasted.

--

"Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins

No flamebait by tsa · 2011-04-25 07:23 · Score: 2

This post is not a flamebait but the truth. Not only in America but also in most of Europe you have to be crazy to become a scientist. I know 'cause I am one. The changes of making a career beyond the job of Post-Doc are tiny, which means getting a fixed position at a university is out of the question. Our government wants the Netherlands to be in the top five of the best research conducted in the world, and in order to reach that goal has thought it wise to has rip at least 300 M€ from the science budget. All universities now have to lose personnel. This means not only do you never know where your next job comes from, but there is also a small chance that you get fired during a research project. If I were a student now I would really think twice before starting a scientific career.

--

-- Cheers!

Re:what's really going on? by Hazel+Bergeron · 2011-04-25 07:36 · Score: 3, Interesting

Believe it or not Slashdot, the guys at the top are usually there for very good reasons. They are not stupid, they are not idiots, and most of them are pretty damn good at what they do.

I'm one of those privileged cunts people whine about. I went to a nice private school and am quite familiar with the old boys'/girls' network.

I can assure you that while most aren't stupid, and some of them are even quite good at what they do, what they are not is uniquely able or qualified. The fact that they're in the position rather than any number of other people of equal or greater competence is that they know the right people and play the right tune (which is often very different from the tune the company claims to play).

In other words, a meritocratic market would certainly cause upper management pay to drop to one tenth of its current silliness. But why would you threaten your own security by actually practicing the competitive capitalism that you preach? No, you're far more secure and productive if you cooperate while preaching to everyone below you to turn against each other in ruthless competition.

The "Real Science Gap" made a similar point by dwheeler · 2011-04-25 08:06 · Score: 2

The Real Science Gap basically makes the same point - the jobs are horrible for scientists, so lots of smart people avoid the field.

--
- David A. Wheeler (see my Secure Programming HOWTO)

Re:what's really going on? by gutnor · 2011-04-25 08:15 · Score: 2

That's what you get for pricing yourselves out of the market.

Actually that is quite right. Companies moves their production where it is the cheaper and sell where it makes them the most profit. You are free to do the same. Well, except that you cannot buy wherever you want - sorry. But that's ok you can still get a master in another field, learn a foreign culture and move over there ? A company can do that in 3 month, surely a single individual would not take that long. /sarcasm

Re:Bogus by turkeyfish · 2011-04-25 08:37 · Score: 2

Gee I became a professor and I maxed out at 42K for 100 hr plus weeks. Clearly, I was in the wrong field.

Re:Counter-examples by PopeRatzo · 2011-04-25 08:45 · Score: 2

Middle class is about being in the middle of needing to work for your money and having your money work for you.
Most of the usual definitions of middle class that exist in cultural mythology are all about distracting various grades of the working class.
Usually a bigger house and a fancier car and a larger salary and a higher tax bracket just means you've got a bigger debt to work off.

This is the most insightful comment I've read on the Internet in calendar year 2011.

Well done.

--
You are welcome on my lawn.

See also Disciplined Minds by Paul+Fernhout · 2011-04-25 08:56 · Score: 2

http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/
"Upon publication of Disciplined Minds, the American Institute of Physics fired author Jeff Schmidt. He had been on the editorial staff of Physics Today magazine for 19 years. ...
Who are you going to be? That is the question.
In this riveting book about the world of professional work, Jeff Schmidt demonstrates that the workplace is a battleground for the very identity of the individual, as is graduate school, where professionals are trained. He shows that professional work is inherently political, and that professionals are hired to subordinate their own vision and maintain strict âoeideological discipline.â
The hidden root of much career dissatisfaction, argues Schmidt, is the professionalâ(TM)s lack of control over the political component of his or her creative work. Many professionals set out to make a contribution to society and add meaning to their lives. Yet our system of professional education and employment abusively inculcates an acceptance of politically subordinate roles in which professionals typically do not make a significant difference, undermining the creative potential of individuals, organizations and even democracy.
Schmidt details the battle one must fight to be an independent thinker and to pursue oneâ(TM)s own social vision in todayâ(TM)s corporate society. He shows how an honest reassessment of what it really means to be a professional employee can be remarkably liberating. After reading this brutally frank book, no one who works for a living will ever think the same way about his or her job."

Also by a physicist:
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dg/crunch_art.html

More links collected by me:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/to-james-randi-on-skepticism-about-mainstream-science.html#Some_quotes_on_social_problems_in_science
http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-October/005379.html
http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-November/005584.html
http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-November/006005.html

--
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.

IMF bombshell: Age of America nears end by Paul+Fernhout · 2011-04-25 09:07 · Score: 2

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/imf-bombshell-age-of-america-about-to-end-2011-04-25?pagenumber=2
"Commentary: China's economy will surpass the U.S. in 2016 [based on PPP] ...
This is the result of decades during which China has successfully pursued economic policies aimed at national expansion and power, while the U.S. has embraced either free trade or, for want of a better term, economic appeasement.
"There are two systems in collision," said Ralph Gomory, research professor at NYU's Stern business school. "They have a state-guided form of capitalism, and we have a much freer former of capitalism." What we have seen, he said, is "a massive shift in capability from the U.S. to China. What we have done is traded jobs for profit. The jobs have moved to China. The capability erodes in the U.S. and grows in China. That's very destructive. That is a big reason why the U.S. is becoming more and more polarized between a small, very rich class and an eroding middle class. The people who get the profits are very different from the people who lost the wages."
The next chapter of the story is just beginning. ..."

What tinkerers related to science and technology can do though?
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/09/surface-area-required-to-power-the-whole-world-with-solar-power-wind.php
http://pesn.com/2011/01/17/9501746_Focardi-Rossi_10_kW_cold_fusion_prepping_for_market/

--
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.

Re:what's really going on? by nwf · 2011-04-25 09:25 · Score: 2

And these days, that Chinese or Indian scientists will probably be of higher calibre than the American.

You obviously don't work in the sciences.

While not quite the same, it's fun to read discussion boards for various open-source technologies. You'll see tons of people with -looking names posting questions that reveal they know absolutely nothing about software development. They have a passing familiarity with .NET, and that's it.

I've also worked with companies who have out sourced their software development and it's downright hilarious the problems they encounter because they are trying to save money. They pay someone for a week to do what any half-competent programmer I know would do in 1/2 a day. That's if they actually do the work actually desired, which is even often not the case.

Managers think they are saving money, because they think all developers and scientists are the same. But, that type of cost can't really be factored into their spreadsheet, so they still think they are better off. What's really going to happen is these overseas outsourcing companies will improve their technical skills and then realize, "hey, we don't need clueless overseas management. We can do the entire thing ourselves." And so those domestic service-oriented companies shrink and the foreign service-oriented companies set up shop in the US. Just like making cars.

Cloud-based systems, in particular, like CRM, lead-management, accounting, and likely office software, will be produced overseas and sold here by a company with a small office wherever the taxes are cheapest.

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I don't know, but it works for me.

I get tired of all the tests. by nastro · 2011-04-25 09:27 · Score: 2

What with the falling in acid, putting up the blue portal again when I meant to shoot the orange one, the robot that is trying to kill me...it just gets old. Science is bad for my health. I don't even _like_ cake.

Re:Finance. by layer3switch · 2011-04-25 12:23 · Score: 2

> you get to create money out of thin air and lend it out with interest. That is where the real bucks are.

Now I declared my new major - The Tapestry of Magic!

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"Don't let fools fool you. They are the clever ones."

Re:what's really going on? by Stuntmonkey · 2011-04-25 12:57 · Score: 4, Interesting

Believe it or not Slashdot, the guys at the top are usually there for very good reasons. They are not stupid, they are not idiots, and most of them are pretty damn good at what they do.

I've worked directly with a lot of CEOs and other senior leaders at companies. My observation is that there is always a baseline of high personal drive and ambition, and usually a good amount of charisma and intelligence as well. The people who get to the top get there for a reason, and it isn't usually prep school or family connections. Many CEOs come from typical middle-class backgrounds.

That said, at the senior-most level it's hard in practice to determine just who is "pretty damn good at what they do". At a large company it can take five or more years to figure out whether a given strategy was brilliant or misguided. Contrast that with a line factory worker, whose contribution is easy to measure. Because it's so hard to measure the performance of a C-level leader, there gets to be this self-perpetuating aspect to the people in those roles: Once you attain that role (somehow), then wherever you go in the future will also be a C-level role. And if you're a corporate board looking to hire at that level, you go with someone that has prior experience because you don't really know how to measure them anyway, and you're pretty risk averse. In effect the pool of candidates is artificially restricted because of a lack of good information. Ironically C-level people end up making more money precisely because it is so difficult to measure how well they perform.

In net, I'd guess at least one person out of 100,000 has what takes to be a credible CEO of Goldman Sachs, if they were given the chance. Of course we'll never know.

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Why Science Is a Lousy Career Choice

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