New Heat Pump Will Last 10,000 Years

formaggio writes "Most heat pumps maintain an average useful life of 10-20 years, but researchers at the University of Stavanger in Norway (USN) and the University of Oslo believe that they have developed a new heat pump that will last up to 10,000 years."

Comments

Is the warranty transferable?

[NotQuiteReal]

They guy at Best Buy will still try to sell you the extended warranty too!

Re:Is the warranty transferable?

[mrops]

What about Efficiency? I did RTFA, couldn't find it, or it could be its time to go home and I missed it.

Re:Is the warranty transferable?

[maxwell demon]

They will not make that heat pump for too long anyway. After all, it will take 10000 years before anyone orders a replacement.

Re:Is the warranty transferable?

[Gadget_Guy]

Sounds like vapor anyway.

No, this is an announcement of academic research. It is quite usual for there to be many years between development of a technique at a university and a real-world product launch by commercial companies. This is not some company trying to prevent the sales of a competitor that beat them to the punch. It is just the standard development process in action that happened to pretty much all the technology that you use right now.

For academic institutions, the idea IS the product. That is why it is perfectly acceptable to discuss things like the efficiency of this technique. If everyone waited until some company had created a product before talking about it then it would be a waste of time if it turned out that the idea resulted in something that was worse than what we had before.

Re:Is the warranty transferable?

[Lanteran]

http://xkcd.com/678/

Re:Is the warranty transferable?

[hubie]

I think you still have to classify this as vapor for the very reasons you mention. Basically it is a pitch for further funding, which is fine. However, there is no guarantee that this would ever make it to market simply because it is academic research. Hopefully it will, but there are many academic research advances that don't make it to market for a variety of reasons, such as being able to productize it in a cost effective manner (unless you can get it heavily subsidized, for instance). Perhaps there might be no reason in principal that it couldn't be productized, but let us say it does but it comes out 2-3 times the amount of what a regular heat pump does, nobody will buy it. If they haven't done any manufacturability analysis or any kind of market research, I'd take that 5-10 years at this point to be no better than any number they could pull out from between their back pockets.

I don't get it

[countertrolling]

An article about itty bitty peltiers? Do they come in white?

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they come in white?

That's the part that will take five to ten years...

Where have I seen something like this before?

[fahrbot-bot]

The new heat pump is comprised of many miniature heat pumps, as small as one cubic millimeter, that can be arranged in an array to create a larger unit that can be tall and thin or short and wide, ...

Or human shaped. Cue Replicator jokes in...three, two, one. (Seriously, that's what the photo in TFA reminded me of.)

Re:Where have I seen something like this before?

[indeterminator]

Whoa, replicators made out of those would be very cool!

Re:Where have I seen something like this before?

[Jesus_666]

We just need to make sure those heat pumps can't be programmed in JavaScript, then we'll be safe.

Poor estimation

[DanTheStone]

This is like the bridges built in the '60s that were supposed to last over a hundred years, but need to be replaced now. By the time they have to be replaced, the companies manufacturing them will simply no longer exist to sue and will have moved on to Carbon Fiber (the next 100+ year technology that won't last nearly 100 years).

Re:Poor estimation

[elrous0]

During the Vietnam War, Colt sold the M-16 to the Army with the promise that it would never need cleaning. And they were right. They just forgot to add the "unless you want it to keep firing" part.

Re:Poor estimation

[Mashiki]

Well they will last 100 years. You still need to do maintenance. It's like my house, it's 180yrs old. But it won't last another 5 if I never keep the maintenance going on it.

Re:Poor estimation

[hitmark]

Part of that problem, iirc, was the US Army going with a different, cheaper, ammo then intended during design.

Re:Poor estimation

[MaskedSlacker]

To be fair in the case of the bridges, they probably failed to account for increased traffic over the last fifty years and underfunding of maintenance by corrupt local governments. First one's the bridge buidlers' fault, the second one is the public's fault for only electing spoiled children to run local governments, but in either case I doubt it was so much as out-and-out fraud.

Re:Poor estimation

[phayes]

Why go ruin a superficial anti-military rant with facts?

Re:Poor estimation

[newcastlejon]

Why go ruin a superficial anti-military rant with facts?

Because this is slash... oh, wait. Nevermind.

Re:Poor estimation

[Anonymous Coward]

sounded more like an anti-Colt M-16 rant.

funny how you think complaining that our troops were victims of a bait-and-switch is somehow anti-military. how did you even manage to reply on this thread? it must have taken you all day to mouth the words as you read it.

maybe you meant anti-something-remotely-military-related, but to those of us who read and comprehend english at a normal level, it just sounds like you're retarded.

Re:Poor estimation

[eleuthero]

I am all for someone starting in on buildings designed so well that they don't need maintenance very often. As a point towards the possibility of this goal, it was only in the last few years that they've had to start blocking vehicular access through the aqueduct in Segovia, Spain--pollution and vibration from vehicular traffic was damaging it. It carried water up into the modern age but had sections destroyed in the Napoleonic wars. I'm sure it had some maintenance, but we could do with more designs like that which allow for something to last with largely original material and no mortar for nearly 1800 years.

Re:Poor estimation

[MaWeiTao]

The problem is that we wouldn't know how to build something like that.

In a small city in northern Portugal there was this stone wall (maybe 50ft high) that was erected during the Roman era. Several years ago part of it finally collapsed. So they decided to rebuild it. That bit collapsed within a year. I don't know what's happened since, but I suspect it involves concrete and rebar.

Re:Poor estimation

[blair1q]

Most of it was because it was designed only for firing and carrying specs and tested only in clean conditions.

Jump into a couple of foxholes and you're disassembling the fucking thing to get the sand out from between the bolt and the receiver. Whereas you could shake an AK-47 clean in a muddy puddle and come up firing.

If the ammo added problems, that's the ammo's problem. The M-16 was a weapon characterized by an occasional failure to fail.

Re:Poor estimation

[Wyatt Earp]

That Russian Wolf ammo will jam anything and everything.

I've seen it jam a Glock that was on about round 50, then it fired Remington and Gold Dot for 7500 rounds without jamming.

Wolf jammed my Jericho 941 where Gold Dot has never misfired or jammed.

Re:Poor estimation

[roc97007]

...and not in a good way...

Sorry, had to say it...

Re:Poor estimation

[roc97007]

> The M-16 was a weapon characterized by an occasional failure to fail.

That's my favorite phrase for this week.

Re:Poor estimation

[bored_engineer]

To be fair in the case of the bridges, they probably failed to account for increased traffic over the last fifty years and underfunding of maintenance by corrupt local governments. First one's the bridge buidlers' fault

Not really. A bridge in the 60's may, or may not, have included a planner or planners. If it did, the traffic volume would have probably included a planner in the first stage, defining the traffic and thereby the cyclic loading. If not a planner, then there may have been an engineer filling the same role. If there was no planner, then it went straight to an engineer for preliminary design, then another (or possibly the same) engineer for final design, then the final design would have been presented for bidding. There are early and late instances where construction and design were combined, but in the 60s, it was much more common for the two to be separate. Today, they're still separate firms, but may be operating as a team. The general point is that it's not *necessarily* the builder's fault that a bridge failed. It may have been the fault of planners, engineers, builders or even an incomplete understanding of the materials involved.

Your second point is spot on, though.

Re:Poor estimation

[mirix]

AK was never designed for long range, so you can't really fault it for that.

If they want to hit someone from 800 yd, they'd call on the guy with a purpose fitting rifle, a SVD or something along those lines.

Re:Poor estimation

[swalve]

A bridge will last forever if the fucking thing gets painted every now and then.

Re:Poor estimation

[tylernt]

the chamber size allowed them to fire both American and Soviet ammo.

What caliber of American ammo can be safely fired in a 7.62x39 AK? Seriously, I've never heard of such a thing.

Now, NATO 9x19 Para ammo can be fired in a Soviet 9x18 Makarov pistol (though this is definitely unsafe). But the Russians didn't design this as a feature -- rather, they designed their 9x18 ammo so that it couldn't fire in a NATO pistol to avoid having their own ammunition being used against them should any of it fall into enemy hands.

Re:Poor estimation

[Firethorn]

It's worse than that.
Colt's M-16 was designed around a newer, cleaner burining rod type powder compared to the older ball type powders; but it also included a chrome barrel and integral cleaning kit in the stock. It was advertised as 'needing a minimal amount of cleaning'

The Army testing team, being hostile to the idea of switching away from a .30 caliber rifle, had sabotoged Colt's acceptance trials. When McNamara found out, he basically ordered the switch to the M16, but they continued to sabotoge the effort, taking Stoner's 'self cleaning' comments to not issue cleaning kits even as they deleted the chromed barrel and substituted dirtier ammo.

Basically, the M-16A1 was mostly just returning to Colt's original specifications.

Re:Poor estimation

[MaskedSlacker]

It may have been the fault of planners, engineers, builders or even an incomplete understanding of the materials involved.

I was just lumping all people involved in planning, design, and construction together as 'builders.' Whoever was supposed to plan for increased road/rail traffic didn't (probably, in some cases, so I assume, etc.).

Re:Poor estimation

[Unkyjar]

Or not...

http://youtu.be/IqK2r5bPFTM

Re:Poor estimation

[Mashiki]

Rebar is the big problem modern construction. It gets wet, it will wick water from the outside. It expands differently from the surrounding material(leading to cracking from the inside). In days of yore it was an unknown, building materials + concrete mix where what was used to make it strong.

As for not knowing how to do it? You're right. We're still nearly 2000 years behind in concrete construction and understanding how the romans did it, and did it well.

Re:Poor estimation

[hitmark]

In other words the military version of bruised middle management ego...

Re:Poor estimation

[19thNervousBreakdown]

Yeah, skyscrapers today just don't compare with skyscrapers from ancient Rome.

And have you seen those entire buildings they put up in a couple months with a crew of 20 or so? I bet they won't be standing in 2,000 years.

Re:Poor estimation

[shutdown -p now]

There were enough issues with the rifle other than the ammo problem, as anyone who researched the topic knows.

Re:Poor estimation

[shutdown -p now]

What caliber of American ammo can be safely fired in a 7.62x39 AK? Seriously, I've never heard of such a thing.

Any 7.62x39 ammo manufactured by an American company, obviously.

Re:Poor estimation

[metacell]

Isn't it more anti-military to say the problem lay with the military using cheaper ammo, than to say it lay with Colt for promising more than they could keep?

Re:Poor estimation

[jandrese]

You could build a house to last 200 years today if you wanted. It would cost considerably more than a regular house made out of sticks, but it certainly could be done. You also wouldn't be able to sell it for anything like what you paid to build it because nobody factors in the durability of the house very much when considering what price they would pay for it. Even if you did find someone interested, their bank would just tell them that what you're asking is grossly more than the equivalent (and they're not to picky about what is "equivalent") homes in the area.

Re:Poor estimation

[gl4ss]

well, the parts are probably ceramic and metal, no rubbers, lubrication or stuff like that. it's solid state(essentially)
it seems like a small peltier unit. dunno why they wouldn't last for a loooong time. which makes this article seem like a blast from the past and these norwegian researches like total douches who haven't read science mags at all in their life. because then they'd would have thought that they would need to give us a bit more information on how this isn't just the same thing as any other peltier you can already order online.

Re:Poor estimation

[metacell]

I can see this story can be spun many different ways, depending on which details you're presented with. Who decided to delete the chromed barrel and substitute the ammo? Was it still claimed to be "self-cleaning" after that?

Re:Poor estimation

[phayes]

good point

Re:Poor estimation

[realityimpaired]

Interesting... while the weapon can be used at that kind of range, it would take a *lot* of luck to actually hit anything accurately. When I was in the military, the max effective range on a C7-A1 was about 300m, and at the range, people usually didn't train at ranges further than 200m except when they were doing the 300m rundown certification.

Keeping in mind that the C7-A1 is essentially an M16-A2 with a continuous fire mode (instead of the "burst of three" that the American counterpart is limited to), and is also manufactured by the same people as the M16, complete with the grips manufactured by Mattel, perhaps you meant 800 feet, and not 800 yards? I mean, if you're *really* good and *really* lucky, you can score a hit from 800 yards, but it's unlikely to be lethal and if you're shooting from that far away, the M16 would never be the weapon of choice. 5.56x45 simply doesn't have that kind of range.

Re:Poor estimation

[Onuma]

They also failed to line the barrels with chrome-molybdenum. A lack of which tends to foul the barrel and chamber with copper, lead & powder residue much more quickly.

There is no gun that "never needs cleaning". You may be able to push a thousand or more rounds through a modern day M16-A2/A4, but sooner or later it will foul and cease to cycle. The most I've fired without a thorough cleaning is about 1200, and that was in fairly unusual circumstances which didn't afford me the time to clean properly. Luckily, guns run better wet and dirty than dry and dirty.

Re:Poor estimation

[Onuma]

I've heard a similar argument from other people as far as AK's firing NATO ammo. The only possible combination of rifle cartridge I can think of is the 7.62R (7.62 x 54mm) chamber perhaps firing a 7.62 NATO (7.62 x 51mm). The shape of the round is different, specifically the rim and the ogive, but in a loose chamber it MAY work.

You can also fire 9mm Luger (aka Parabellum, 9x19) through a .40S&W weapon. I don't suggest it, but DOES go bang, though it does not cycle properly, accurately hit a target, etc. Same goes for .40S&W in a .45ACP pistol. This is why you don't mix your rounds up!

Re:Poor estimation

[Onuma]

I disagree about 5.56x45mm not having the range to push out to 800+ yards. My friend's daughter is one of the top riflewomen (is that a word?) in Texas. She takes her 5.56mm AR-15, which has been accurized and uses match-grade equipment and ammnition, and can hit a bullseye consistently at 1000 yards.

It is not the caliber which limits precision at range, necessarily. The NATO M855 round is lighter and more cheaply made than match ammunition, as are the M16 family of rifles. They're not match grade, because the average soldier does not require that level of precision and match grade weapons tend to have less tolerance for dirt & debris.

I agree though, that a heavier caliber (7.62 NATO or .50 BMG for example) is much more apt to firing and killing at distances in excess of conventional rifleman operations.

Re:Poor estimation

[necro81]

This is like the bridges built in the '60s that were supposed to last over a hundred years, but need to be replaced now.

Part of the reason some of those bridges need to be replaced now is that they are handling much more traffic than expected, in some cases an order of magnitude higher.

Another reason is that the bridges were built with an intended maintenance and inspection schedule. The designers and builders never said "we'll built it this way and it'll never need to be touched for 100 years." State and local governments in subsequent decades thought they could skimp on maintenance as a way to reduce budgets, or divert federal highway dollars to non-transportation budget items. But, guess what, things break when not maintained.

Re:Poor estimation

[Hasai]

BS.
The Armalite was designed to use a hot, fast propellant. U.S. Army Ordinance, however, insisted upon using an older, slower propellant without any modifications to either the rifle or that older propellant. The results were predictable, but when was the last time a petty government bureaucrat ever gave a damn?
Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of all these "business-is-bad-government-is-good" sheep with their loose-leaf notebook versions of history.

Re:Poor estimation

[Neil Boekend]

It depends where you live. Here in the Netherlands houses are usually built from bricks. These could easily last 100 years (but are usually torn down before that because modern buildings are always "in"). There are many houses left that stood for 100 years or longer (my parents' house will be 100 this year). I would believe a house made of less durable materials (the sticks you speak of) would sell for less (although the building codes may forbid you from building one. Dunno, IANAL).

Re:Poor estimation

[GooberToo]

During the Vietnam War, Colt sold the M-16 to the Army with the promise that it would never need cleaning. And they were right. They just forgot to add the "unless you want it to keep firing" part.

Absolutely wrong. Colt sold them the weapon stating it was self cleaning allowing it to go longer durations between cleaning. It was. Colt designed the weapon to be sold with a cleaning kit (included in butt of rifle), to use specific gun powder, and to be designed with a specific process (chroming) to ensure carbon didn't collect, allowing the action to naturally scape carbon away. These weapons were tested with troops and the troops fell in love. Most couldn't wait for the weapon to be deployed en mass as it and its ammunition was far lighter; making it a literal game changing on the battlefield.

The bean counters morons (yes, they are the literal definition of idiots) decided they knew better than the manufacturers, despite knowing absolutely nothing about firearms. They decided they could save money by redesigning components (no chroming), changed powder used in rounds to high carbon, and by not providing a cleaning kit. As a result, thousands of US soldiers were murdered with a "weapon" in hand which couldn't fire. McNamara justified their deaths by all the money he saved. McNamara has the blood of thousands of dead military personnel on his hands. Their deaths have nothing to do with Colt.

Re:Poor estimation

[elrous0]

Well, you know anyone named "Remmington" is going to be a posh snob. I just wish there was at least one gun company named "Chuck." I bet Chuck wouldn't be so goddamned picky about his ammo.

Re:Poor estimation

[jandrese]

"Sticks" was just slang for 2x4s with siding on the outside, standard insulation, etc... Normal houses. To be fair, if the builder isn't cutting corners left and right, a house built that way and maintained will last for a hundred years or more too, but the "and maintained" part is more important than it is on homes made out of sturdier materials. If you get a termite infestation that you don't take care of, the house is not going to last that long. If your roof starts leaking and you don't take care of it the house will be trash. With a house made from concrete and stacked stones you could neglect it for years and when someone comes back all they would have to do is maybe knock the mold out (admittedly not easy) and spruce up the paint.

Re:Poor estimation

[elrous0]

The M-16 was a weapon characterized by an occasional failure to fail.

Reminds me of that scene in "More American Graffiti" where Charles Martin Smith is trying to shoot himself with his M-16. It jams, naturally, and he says something alone the lines of "Typical. Can't even shoot MYSELF with it."

Re:Poor estimation

[elrous0]

The way I understood it, the first batch of M-16's didn't come with any cleaning kit at all (again, because Colt called them "self-cleaning"). It was only after complaints that they added the cleaning kit in the stock.

Re:Poor estimation

[elrous0]

Luckily, guns run better wet and dirty than dry and dirty.

Probably not so lucky if you're in Iraq.

Re:Poor estimation

[RingDev]

As a former Marine who qualified high expert for all but one year (missed by one point my first time to the range), including multiple 'possibles' (10/10 rapid fire at 200 and 300 yards) and consistently going 9/10-10/10 at the 500 yard slow fire, I'm going to say that the M16-A2 is quite capable at 500+ yards. I never had a chance to sight in on an 800 yard range, but given the rifle's accuracy at 500 yards, I would fully expect to be able to continue shooting with a very high degree of confidence at a point target from 800 yards.

Now, it's quite possible that some POG Army-soldier might not be able to hit the broad side of a barn with out sand bags at BZO range (30 yards), but in the Marine Corps, EVERY Marine is a rifleman first. You learn how to shoot and care for your weapon the correct way.

-Rick

Re:Poor estimation

[crashumbc]

If I remember correctly they (the US Army) also switched out several key components with cheaper versions. i.e. I'm pretty sure the original design had a stainless steel receiver which switched to plain steel.

That said, claiming any mechanical system never needs maintenance is just stupid. especially one taken into dirty,wet environments.

Re:Poor estimation

[aardwolf64]

I'm OK if they only last half of the advertised 10,000 years...

Re:Poor estimation

[tngaijin]

And to rebut this with my own anecdotal evidence, I use wolf almost exclusively for plinking due to price. I have never had a misfire or jam with this stuff even after shooting over 1000 rounds in a day. Its dirty as hell and cleaning up my fire arms is always worse than when firing good ammo, but saying that wolf Jams anything isn't true. My Sig 556 will even cycle the lacquered crap they sell for like 10 cents a round. My XDm eats it just fine. The Saiga and WASR were designed for it obviously so no surprises that they like it either.

Re:Poor estimation

[Onuma]

Been there, done that.
Too much lubrication does attract dust and dirt easily, but once you're already griming up the weapon system you're much better off with extra lube.

Re:Poor estimation

[Firethorn]

Stoner's(the designer) AR-10 prototype had a chrome barrel(helps resist buildup) and used a newer, cleaner burning type of extruded powder. Despite this, it came with a slot for a cleaning kit in the stock.

The army, when it placed it's order, didn't order any cleaning kits, specified a non-chrome barrel to save costs, and used a dirtier powder for pretty much the same reason.

Re:Poor estimation

[Firethorn]

Was it still claimed to be "self-cleaning" after that?

Probably not, but by then the rifle's were the Army's. It was they who decided against the slightly more expensive chromed chamber & barrel, and they were always going to provide the ammo.

Note that 'self cleaning' doesn't equal 'no cleaning needed'. An oven can be 'self cleaning' and still need some additional cleaning on occasion.

Re:Poor estimation

[Mashiki]

Congratulations on failing to understand the point I made. I guess you don't understand modern construction or the flaws inherent to it compared to what humanity was doing with concrete 2000 years ago, and why what we have isn't comparable or anything. The reason why we can build skyscrapers is due in part to metalergy and our understanding of it. But we still use more concrete in day-to-day uses for buildings than steel.

Hell we can't even make a basement that doesn't leak(with weeping systems) in some form compared to what we did 150 years ago.

peltier?

[svirre]

Soooo this looks like a thermocouple or peltier element. What's new?

heat pump?

[demonbug]

I just want a radiator belt that will last a thousand years.

Re:heat pump?

[nullCRC]

Radiators have belts?

Re:heat pump?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some have suspenders.

Re:heat pump?

[willy_me]

Older vehicles used belts to turn the rad fan but most vehicles now use an electric motor.

Re:heat pump?

[newcastlejon]

Radiators have belts?

Yes, they do... if you're in the minority without an electric cooling fan.

As I recall, there's a well known Jaguar advert where a pretty lady uses a stocking as an impromptu fan belt*.

*I forget what the american term is.

Re:heat pump?

[tnk1]

As I recall, there's a well known Jaguar advert where a pretty lady uses a stocking as an impromptu fan belt*.

*I forget what the american term is.

*It's "fan belt", but without the extra 'u'.

Re:heat pump?

[jd2112]

If you own a Jaguar you need to be prepared to make emergency repairs.

Re:heat pump?

[blair1q]

Now it's the alternator belt that goes out.

(Shh. Don't tell anyone it's the same belt.)

Re:heat pump?

[NotQuiteReal]

To be safe, you should always use both a belt and suspenders!

Re:heat pump?

[terjeber]

In Norway "imperial units of measure" are typically called "English units of measure", so a mile is typically called "an English mile". The question "how long is an English mile" is thus usually answered "as far as an English car will run".

Re:heat pump?

[Neil Boekend]

And a foot is about as far as an old English motorbike will run after it stops leaking oil (they always leak, unless they have leaked the engine dry.) if I remember my uncles words correctly (he has a fair few pre-WW2 bikes).

Re:heat pump?

[Technician]

The Prius has eliminated the alternator belt too.

10,000

[swanzilla]

The 10,000 number was pulled out of the air for emphasis. From a meatier source

The miniature pumps will just continue to pump. We stick fans on them, and they must be replaced, but the heat pump itself will stay and be equally effective after 10 000 years," Bording continues.

Misleading headline, both on this blog post and on the blog post that this blog post cites.

Re:10,000

[MozeeToby]

So, reading your quote it sounds more like Lincoln's ax than an amazingly durable machine. You might swap out every individual element over the course of 10 years, replace the fans once or twice, and the power supply a couple times, but by the summaries logic, it's still the same heat pump.

Re:10,000

[camperslo]

The link you provided does make it apparent that these pumps can also be used to produce electricity if the pump is placed between a heat source and a heat sink.

Too bad these aren't being used more as part of processes cooling troublesome spent fuel, producing some electricity at the same time. Wouldn't it be great if these could enable an ultra-reliable alternative to backup generators? The article doesn't say if the material is hardy against ionizing radiation.

Re:10,000

[EnsilZah]

Probably was just not meant to be a factual statement, there's a lot of that going around.

Re:10,000

[syousef]

The 10,000 number was pulled out of the air for emphasis.

It was pulled from somewhere with foul air where the sun does not shine.

Re:10,000

[nickersonm]

Bording is clearly referring to the fans needing to be replaced, not the thermoelectric elements themselves.

Re:10,000

[rgbatduke]

Yeah, I kinda pegged that one for being pure bullshit. Unless they planned to build it out of pure platinum or gold and then build a really big pyramid over it and then kill off everybody on earth so that nobody steals it to melt it down. Otherwise, what metal has ten thousand years worth of staying power in a corrosive and often wet oxygen bath? There are a handful of metal implements more than 3000 years old, and an even smaller handful of metal implements that aren't corroded that aren't made of gold. Electrochemistry even of peltier coolers would create enough bimetallic corrosion that they would probably not make a century, let alone a thousand years.

rgb

Re:10,000

[Neil Boekend]

If you use an aluminium heat sink without fan you don't even have to replace the fan!

Re:10,000

[camperslo]

Make some modified casks to use old spent fuel heat to provide backup power for instrumentation. None of this few hours of runtime nonsense. If the instrumentation and control systems are kept working, better on-plant and near-zone decisions can be made, and backup pump systems powered by small turbines tapping reactor heat or whatever can at least be turned on.

Monitoring and control system power must NEVER go down. Counting on batteries or generators, even if they work, is too short term of technology to rely on when all hell has broken loose. Counting on those was a major design blunder. At full load, the internal fuel tanks in the generator trucks are only enough for a few hours. A backup that doesn't last long enough to cover the worst case repair time for primary systems isn't much of a backup.

Solid state heat pump - Peltier Junction??

[Anonymous Coward]

Solid state heat pumps exist already. It is called Peltier Junction. They are not used because their efficiency is bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier_effect

The COP of current commercial thermoelectric refrigerators ranges from 0.3 to 0.6, only about one-sixth the value of traditional vapor-compression refrigerators

So what is the break through in the little heat pumps?? TFA is completely uninformative on that. It doesn't even specify efficiency of the heat pump.

PS. I've had an open loop heat pump for the last decade, and so far it didn't require "frequent inspection" or "maintenance" as TFA says it does. It comes with 20 year warranty. It is basically just like a larger version of a fridge. The only maintenance I can envision is simply cleaning the heat exchanger once in a while.

Re:Solid state heat pump - Peltier Junction??

[skids]

I don't think there is a breakthrough... I think these guys are just working on the macro assembly angle of things. I can't see any claims as to better COP, which would make the claims that this would be more "environmentally friendly" a bit dubious.

There is work going on, mind you, on much better TEC and TEG devices using new materials and quantum dots and such, but I don't see any indication in the sources that these people are doing anything other than figuring out how best to package them for retrofit applications. Not that that's an unworthy study.

Re:Solid state heat pump - Peltier Junction??

[queazocotal]

That's somewhat variable.
Peltiers basically blow if you use them at over half their 'sticker' maximum temperature difference.
At that point, they have perhaps a COP of 1.
At a temperature difference of around 1/6 maximum - they are up to around a COP of 4-5, which
isn't bad at all.
However - this is a delta of 6C or so - which isn't really usable in most applications.
It's worth noting that a COP of 1 isn't useless.
If you can make it cheap enough, you can make a electric heater with double the output.

I should have actually saved the graph I made.
To replicate - go to http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=102-1663-ND get the datasheet - now refactor the graph into power in vs heat pump capacity over temperature and current.

Re:Solid state heat pump - Peltier Junction??

[blair1q]

TFA is on a stupid hippy-dippy design blog site run by children.

I'm sure they're impressed, but anyone who's been reading this grade of journalism in Popular Science for a few decades is not.

Up to 10,000 years

[Arancaytar]

That's nice, but we have no shortage of stuff that lasts "up to" millions of years.

Re:Up to 10,000 years

[xMrFishx]

If it's anything like broadband in the UK, it means it'll last 100 years most of the time, and then on occasion it'll last 3000 years but you're capped at 1 use per day except at lunch time when you can only see it from a distance.

Re:Up to 10,000 years

[Bill Dimm]

It reminds me of the advertisements saying "everything in the store is up to 70% off"

Re:Up to 10,000 years

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Technically everything will last forever, it just changes state a lot over that period. :p

Re:Up to 10,000 years

[slapout]

That's like those ads that say "Everything's on sale!" and then say "(excludes electronics, clothing and all Apple products)".

Re:Up to 10,000 years

[blair1q]

Like what?

Your average outcropping of rock looks a lot different from how it did "millions of years ago". Even your average buried rock is likely to have been mashed or cracked. Even the moon has gotten significantly smaller and moved farther away, and grown a mess of craters. The sun? Probably the most rapidly changing object between us and Proxima Centauri.

Pretty much nothing fails to change over that timespan.

Re:Up to 10,000 years

[ShakaUVM]

He's probably talking about all the ridiculous MTBF estimates that are basically developed from putting 1M widgets in a room for a month, and then when one fails, say that the MTBF on the device is a million months.

Because, you know, there's no such thing as corrosion or rust or wear or whatever...

Re:Up to 10,000 years

[pclminion]

I still have my grandfather's old axe. The head's been replaced twice, and the shaft three times, but still the same axe.

Re:Up to 10,000 years

[geekoid]

"Everything's on sale!"

"(excludes the shit you want.)"

Re:Up to 10,000 years

[geekoid]

He knows changes aren't permanent,
But change is. -Rush, Tom Sawyer

Re:Up to 10,000 years

[FrootLoops]

Not in quantum mechanics.... At least, not in the sense you mean. There an expectation value for, say, energy might be conserved, but it's not really the same thing. That is, your post seems to take the classical view that things "are as they are, as measured by the following variables that take on definite values: mass, energy, momentum, ..." modified by relativity saying "and they might turn into energy and geometry is weird so you really need to measure those things carefully, keeping track of your reference frame and the curvature of spacetime". That's basically a hidden variable theory which cannot explain quantum effects as proven by the Bell inequalities.

In a nutshell--quantum is well and truly screwy. The only definite conclusions are probabilistic ones. It only seems like you have a definite momentum (mass*velocity) because the quantum probability curve for your momentum means you'll only notice fluctuations from repeated measurements after many decimal points. Similarly your position is in a sense constantly fluctuating minutely, giving you a wavelength just like the light hitting your eyes has. (Of course I'm vastly oversimplifying. If your really interested go find a textbook. Wikipedia articles somehow don't do justice to topics like these.)

Re:Up to 10,000 years

[sincewhen]

It's like those ads which say "Everything's on sale!." Yes, they will sell any of their stock to the public and make a sale when they exchange the goods for money.

That's nothing!

[Gorath99]

That's nothing! I have a tuna sandwich that will last up to 1 billion years! (Your pick of long or short scale.) I absolutely guarantee that it will last no longer than that!

...

When will we stop giving an upper bound on the time until something will break when we should be giving a (preferably maximal) lower bound?

(Still mighty cool work of the University of Oslo.)

They know this how?

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

That's an annoying claim to make, even if they've done accelerated aging tests. The only human construct that's been proven to stay usable after 10,000 years is stone artifacts, such as blocks and arrowheads. Over a hundred centuries, there's plenty of chances for some unexpected failure mode to pop up.

Re:They know this how?

[skids]

Well, being solid state, they are basically stone artifacts. Though yes, proving they won't fail for 10,000 years due to a number of known effects that take place on the nano-scale would be a daunting challenge.

Re:They know this how?

[newcastlejon]

That's an annoying claim to make, even if they've done accelerated aging tests. The only human construct that's been proven to stay usable after 10,000 years is stone artifacts, such as blocks and arrowheads. Over a hundred centuries, there's plenty of chances for some unexpected failure mode to pop up.

I agree with you: it is somewhat annoying. However, to play devil's advocate (I find it irresistible) Human civilisation as we know it has been around on the order of 10k years. I hope and - figuratively - pray that we'll make it to 10^6.

awwww geeeeze...

[Thud457]

not more inhabitant spam. Normally junk mail is addressed to resident . I blame those damn alien direct-marketroids with their faulty understanding of the English as she is spoke.

Re:awwww geeeeze...

[newcastlejon]

not more inhabitant spam. Normally junk mail is addressed to resident . I blame those damn alien direct-marketroids with their faulty understanding of the English as she is spoke.

Physician, heal thyself.

Re:Maxwell's Demon

[Anonymous Coward]

I was going to suggest that we let it eat Slashdot posts, but...

CD

[korgitser]

If I recall correctly, a CD was supposed to last for a hundred years. Maybe the first batch ever will even make a good run, but once it settles into mass production and the competition to lower the price warms up, you can pretty much squash the hope. And when you hit the period when the product is already superseded by the next generation, but still selling by inertia, you will be lucky if it still works by the time you get home with it. A 10k years? Whatever, i'd rather buy the one that promises 10 years.

Re:CD

[newcastlejon]

I have CD-Rs and DVD±Rs that are unreadable after (OTOO) 10 years; I have yet to find a mastered/pressed disc that has similarly failed. Viz. the issue of obsolescence I can still read them with off-the-shelf hardware as of 2011.

Re:CD

[RsG]

We may recall things differently, but when I was growing up and CDs were the "new" thing, it was assumed only that they'd substantially outlast cassette tapes (which degraded after a few years of regular use), not that they'd last a hundred years. Perhaps the "hundred years" claim was marketing hyperbole and the outlasting cassettes was the more reasonable widely accepted version.

In that regard they've done just fine; a CD that hasn't been scratched or damaged is still readable after at least a couple decades. CD-Rs and the like are a different story; I printed disks back when having a CD-R drive was atypical that are no longer readable today.

Re:CD

[drinkypoo]

CDs are old enough now to be getting laser rot similar to LDs, and indeed they are. And talk to my LDs about how long they should last :(

Re:CD

[sincewhen]

A 10k years? Whatever, i'd rather buy the one that promises 10 years.

Yes, sounds hugely over-engineered to me. So how much has that unnecessarily long lifespan added to the cost?

Dust?

[popo]

It doesn't take a genius to see that the extremely small form-factor would be especially prone to dust.

The 10,000 year number probably requires some idiotic assumption like "as long as it remains dust free".

Re:Dust?

[tompaulco]

The 10,000 year number probably requires some idiotic assumption like "as long as it remains dust free".... and the warranty is void if it is ever exposed to standard atmospheric conditions.

Re:10000 years?

[Anonymous Coward]

hohoho! I can't wait for you to die!

I'll believe it when I see it

[Quince alPillan]

According to the researchers the heat pump will be ready to launch on the market in five to ten years.

http://xkcd.com/678/

Efficiency?

[aes12]

They mentioned that they're green because the don't use freon. Great. Most compressor based heat pumps have used something greener than freon for years. AFIAK, compressor based heat pumps are still WAY more efficient than a peltier. So if you replace a cooling gas with a 400% increase in power usage... You lose?

right...

[oic0]

Small peltiers will last a long time, because they aren't as affected by thermal expansion as their larger brethren. . They still have horrible efficiency though.

questions:

[blair1q]

1. how does it work? 2. where is the motor? 3. it's generally either the motor that dies, or the heat-sink fins on the coils that crust over with deposits and growths, abd cause it to lose effieciency. does this unit work without a motor? does it not need a heat sink? 4. where is it getting the power needed to cause the heat to flow against the thermal gradient to pump it into or out of the transfer medium that goes to the air exchanger? is it efficient at doing this? 5. who cares how long it lasts if it's less efficient?

Queue romantic guitar music

[ItsJustAPseudonym]

"That's nice. What's the name of that song?"

"I call it 'Suck My Heat Pump'."

Was it built by a guy named

[splerdu]

Goering?

Oh wait...

Any High Tech artifacts that last even 100 years?

[AJ Mexico]

Our technical civilization won't really be "advanced" in my view unless we can and do make things that last a long, long time. What technology exists that is still working or workable after centuries or millenia? I think there are a few telescopes over 100 years old that are still in use. Pretty impressive. Older than that, and what?... Stone knives? I heard irrigation ditches and terraces have worked for 100s or thousands of years, but these are pretty static, and have required intensive labor to keep them operating. What *could* we make that would still be operable and interesting in, say 500 years?

Freon, toxic?

[lotho brandybuck]

AFAIK, freon and many other of the refrigerants are no more toxic than water... you CAN drown in them, and that is a hazard in enclosed spaces. And some of the refrigerants were ozone depleters, but the new stuff isn't.

Re:Freon, toxic?

[Ironhandx]

If you get a lungful of freon, you're dead, end of story.

You could be sitting on an operating table in a hospital when it happens and you're still fucked.

Re:Any High Tech artifacts that last even 100 year

[pclminion]

What technology exists that is still working or workable after centuries or millenia?

Roads? Maybe not the way we build them now, but the ancients sure knew how to build 'em. They might be buried, but all you do is uncover it and you've got the same road as a few thousand years ago.

Re:Maxwell's Demon

[maxwell demon]

Just get a demon to sort more and less energetic particles into separate sides of a wall. The only waste is that you have to destroy a huge amount information to offset the order you're creating.

Long ago I decided to no longer do that sort of work. It's just too boring. Sorry.

Re:Or your money back!

[maxwell demon]

Well, you'll get your money back. The only problem is: Do you have an idea how worthless the dollar will be in 10000 years?

great news

[geekoid]

it will be ready in 5 to 10 years...along with fusion and AI.

No kidding

[Sycraft-fu]

I'd be real interested in a heat pump that can last a long time. I just spent about $7000 replacing one that broke, though it was marketed under its more common name: An air conditioner.

Basically any house A/C is a large mechanical heat pump. It has two radiators for heat transfer, and a compressor that it uses to force heat to one of them, which of course makes the other one cool.

Useful, and fairly necessary devices in hot climates. However lifespan is a problem. Not only does their efficiency drop with time but they are only going to last a few decades at best. They are usually warranty'd for 10 years, getting 20 years is fairly realistic, but 30 or more is mostly luck. Eventually the compressor will fail, or the coils will spring a leak or whatever.

So why do we use something mechanical? Because as the parent pointed out, they are efficient. A good compressor combined with large radiators means you can get good efficiency in terms of moving heat.

Believe me, those of us that live in hot climates would love heat pumps that last forever. However they have to be efficient too. Buying an A/C is only half the cost, the other half is running it. Even if you didn't care, the federal government cares on your behalf. They mandate minimum efficiency levels for A/Cs sold.

Re:No kidding

[tompaulco]

You forgot to mention that perfectly good AC components/fluids/couplers get legislated out of existence every 5 years so if that $20 component breaks, you now have to buy a new $7,000 system.

Just watch

[PPH]

They'll put it on the market. And in 6 months they'll announce that its now available in white. And everyone will trade in their old ones.

Wow

[Ferretman]

I wonder what the electrical consumption is? The main reason we didn't go with a heat pump on my new house is that the pumps would draw too much power from the solar system.

Nature has them too

[khallow]

There are a few examples of natural heat pumps that have lasted perhaps thousands of years, such as geysers with large sinter (deposited silica) cones, such as Lone Star Geyser or Castle Geyser (Wikipedia claims there is evidence that the Castle Geyser is a mere thousand years old rather than the assumed 5k to 15k years, but that's a lot of sinter for a thousand years).

These geysers transfer heat from superheated hydrothermal networks underground (which in turn are heated by residual heat from the Yellowstone hot spot) to atmospheric conditions. In the process, they do work, occasionally creating jets of water that rise to fair heights (up to 90 feet for Castle, 40 feet for Lone Star).

As I understand it, there are external factors such as resupply of water to the system and the occasional earthquake to stir up the innards which are necessary to keep these geysers active.

The Long Now

[Jon Abbott]

Any chance this will be used by the folks at The Long Now Foundation?

Does anything man made last 10,000 years?

[LostAlaska]

I still don't quite understand how it could last for 10,000 years or for that matter even 1000 years. I mean besides a few stone structures with essentially no moving parts has anything man made lasted 10,000 years in working order (I'm not counting arrow heads or clovis stones)

Re:Any High Tech artifacts that last even 100 year

[gl4ss]

clocks etc work quite frequently even if they're old.

and a lot of stuff, metal stuff, will last forever if you don't use them.

maybe you should go to a museum - or an old farmstead. or an antiquities store. old guns work too.

we could make plenty of stuff that would be operable for five centuries, provided that it doesn't get destroyed in the meantime. interesting though, that's much harder, like it is much harder to make something that is interesting even just today.

Power Interconnects

[Dracophile]

I hope they use t3h Monsta Kab3l.

Re:Any High Tech artifacts that last even 100 year

[jcnnghm]

Which ancient road have you driven on recently? If you can't actually use them today, do you think they may have grossly overspent on them then?

Still not long enough

[Zoxed]

> New Heat Pump Will Last 10,000 Years

Still not long enough for use in a nuclear waste facility !!

Savings

[Plainswind]

A friend of mine here in Sweden rebuilt his house such that he uses geothermal for heating, with a 15-year plan for economy. In the 4 years he's had it, he's about halfway to recouping his investment already, thanks to Sweden having had normal winters(on a geological timescale, not the unusually mild winters we've had since the mid-80's) again the last two years. Another thing he's working on now is building a Stirling engine, coupled to the geothermal, to generate electricity. It'll be roughly the size of an ordinary home washing machine, and can provide about 1kW. He won't be completely offgrid, but he can severely reduce the amount of power he needs from the grid. Couple that with using LED's and other low-energy lighting, using energy efficient computers etc, he and his family still live very comfortably, in fact, more so than many others. I wish I could do that with my apartment actually.

Re:Steel

[19thNervousBreakdown]

The point was, we make those tradeoffs consciously in order to do things we couldn't otherwise do. It's not like there's some lost ancient art of working with concrete, and just because one particular group in Portugal was incompetent doesn't mean much of anything.

And that's not even getting into the survivorship bias. I'll bet there's a handful of buildings standing from our time 2,000 years from now, and a bunch of luddites will telepathically post (while rocketbooting!) about how much better the ancients from the 21st century used to do it.

Re:Or your money back!

[tompaulco]

I would estimate about a dollar less than it is worth now.

Not that I've seen

[Sycraft-fu]

If you are talking about R-22 that has been way longer than 5 years. I don't know how long it has been used for but it has been at least 20 years ago. What's more it isn't as though they just suddenly cut it off. Just last year is when you couldn't get new equipment with R-22. It can still be produced for use with existing equipment. It'll be allowed to be produced until 2020. Even then it can still be used, it just can't be produced so the supply will slowly dwindle.

That isn't a very fast legislation out of existence. I bought a new unit not because my old one was R-22, I could easily get it recharged, but because it would cost too much to be worth repairing my old one.

Re:Not that I've seen

[tompaulco]

Well, I am talking about that, but also about the fact that they aren't legally allowed to sell below certain efficiencies any more, and said efficiency is about what was available 5 years ago, and of course, the newer higher efficiency stuff that they can sell you is not designed to connect to older stuff, so you can't just replace your outdoor unit and expect it to hook up to your inside unit, and if the do hook it up, the old unit may not handle the newer pressures or may not allow the proper amount of flow, which may break the valves on your new unit.