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Crowdsourcing Radiation Monitoring In Japan
fysdt writes "A new open- and crowdsourced initiative to deploy more geiger counters all over Japan looks to be a go. Safecast, formerly RDTN.org, recently met and exceeded its $33,000 fund-raising goal on Kickstarter, which should help Safecast send between 100 and 600 geiger counters to the catastrophe-struck country. The data captured from the geiger counters will be fed into Safecast.org, which aggregates radiation readings from government, nonprofit, and other sources, as well as into Pachube, a global open-source network of sensors."
Why not just build a geiger counter into the iPhone, and let those sheeple be walking sensors for the rest of us.
We're talking about their money and of course it's their choice how to spend it, but everyone please remember that the "catastrophe-struck country" is the fourth richest country in the world (even the third one, if we count individual EU states separately).
They don't need money, much less having stuff physically delivered there. If you really want hundreds of Geiger counters in Japan, don't buy them in the US and have them delivered to Japan, just send the money there and buy the thingy things directly in Japan (hint: they're probably manufactured in China anyway, think about the two alternatives on a world map).
And to the people that donated to this cause: that's your money but I assure you that there are way better ways to donate it. Like letting people that are actually experts on the subject decide which part(s) of the world need it more at any given time.
There's a hidden treasure in Python 3.x: __prepare__()
Geiger counters cannot pick up short-range radioactivity, which mostly means alpha particles, nor localised hot spots. They cannot really show if there are some dust particles that could carry a high level of, for example, plutonium from a reactor fire deep into the lungs or digestive tract. By all means let us build up a fuller picture of background radiation exposure from cosmic rays and so on, but let's not imagine that Geiger counters will do anything to address the real issue with radiation, which is that it ticks so many boxes for irrational human fears.
except Google Earth had a network sites for monitoring set up throughout Japan within a few days of the Fukushima news - government sites, university sites, private companies with monitoring, individuals with geiger counters. This site is near my house: http://www.aist.go.jp/aist_e/taisaku/en/measurement/index.html
The radiation in Tokyo is less than the radiation in New York, so many places have stopped monitoring continuously now. According to most of the press, we should have been dead by now...
lying. That is what I predict. Because that's what they always do. Lying, covering up, lobbying, extorting - that's what they usually try. The reasons nuclear technology is having such acceptance problems has a lot to do with this. The mitsne ("planed failure mode") brouhaha is iconic for an industry with its head deeply in the sand (or did I get the exact nature of the damp place wrong?).
The nuclear industry has a completely authoritarian, reckless and corrupt management. I would not be surprised if they decided to lobby to outlaw Geiger counters Japan fairly soon.
The Japanese need to advertise for aspiring super heros and send them to the reactor where they can get their superpowers.
(Bitten by radioactive spiders etc.)
Once a sufficient quantity of super heros have been made, they can use them to clean up the damage and fix the reactors.
The Japanese just need to ensure that the intentions of the super heros are pure else they will create super villeins.
How can you cover up something you can easily measure yourself with a $200 device?
Measuring radiation correctly is an expert task ! Without knowing the origin of the radiation, it's type and energy, the use of Geiger Counter is pretty much useless. One can get random numbers by using the wrong apparatus on the wrong radiation. In some case, the Geiger counter will over-react on the wrong radiation (e.g. x-rays), other radiation (e.g alphas) will not even enter the device. By having thousand of non-specialist running around with Geiger Counters, you will collect mainly garbage. But apparently that's what everyone (especially governments) want to do today. Collect data. Store it. Use it. Even if wrong.
Just as a curiosity, why _wouldn't_ you count individual EU states separately? EU states are actual countries, you know?
That's certainly true but AFAICT the EU itself is also in the process of slowly becoming a country (arguably it already is, since December 1, 2009 when it acquired international legal personality independent of its member states). The power within it has been for decades constantly moved from inter-government negotiations between the individual members to EU-wide shared institutions (e.g. the European Commission and the Parliament).
There's a hidden treasure in Python 3.x: __prepare__()
Measuring radiation is not as simple as measuring a temperature (and even that is something nobody wants to entrust an amateur with for the purpose of weather forecasts, etc.).
Depending on sample geometry, distance to sample, even atmospheric conditions for alpha/beta radiation, not to forget cleanliness of the counter, measurements can easily be different by a factor of 1000 or more (!) if you just hand a counter to a lay person and ask him/her to determine some radiation level out in the nature.
Without calibration, test sample verification, standard equipment, and very precise instructions on sample preparation and measurement conditions, the collected data is absolutely worthless.
I've always been a big nuclear supporter of safe nuclear power, and, by safe, I mean ones where the core can reliably melt down to puddle with very minimal impact on the environment around. The thing that bothers me is that I used to believe our current nuclear plants could do this. I am no longer convinced. Indeed, I am openly concerned this is not the case.
In the four cases of partial core meltdowns we have now seen (the Three Mile Island reactor and the three Fukushima reactors), the zicronium fuel rod casings have shown themselves to be a major liability. In all cases, they reacted with the hot steam to produce hydrogen gas, which has then posed a non-insignificant threat to the containment structure. In the case of the Fukushima reactors, we saw this actually happened to unit 3, and on day 3 of Three Mile Island incident, there was significant concern that an accumulated hydrogen bubble would explode damaging the containment structure.
I realize that one in four (25%) is not yet enough samples to exactly pinpoint the probability of containment failure due to the explosion of accumulating hydrogen gas. However, combined with the fact this has been a major concern in all partial core meltdowns experienced so far, it is a figure we should all be concerned with. Containment failure due to hydrogen explosion is not an insignificant failure mode during meltdown, and I have yet to see it mitigated to any reasonably acceptable level.
So, to the nuclear industry out there. Zycronium cladding for the fuel rods is currently used in pretty much every installed reactor. I realize it was chosen due to its low neutron-capture cross-section, but, in operation, it has shown itself to be a significant liability during partial meltdown. It is time to go back to the drawing board and come up with an alternative that does not have this problem. Even if that means a degradation in performance. Until I see this happening, you have lost my support.
Are you one of those Greenpeace Hippies?
Seek facts not propaganda.
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
I agree that Japan's problem is not lack of money. However, Japan does have a serious problem in regards to appropriate allocation of resources in response to recent events, specifically when it comes to transparent measurement data of radiation (which is not unique to Japan). So, if you wanted to donate to Japan, this was a good way to do it.
Personally, though, I see this developing into something like the fon network, with global participation only requiring you buy a compatible device. In times like these, I think spending money to participate in such a network (regardless of where you live) would be a very good way to spend your money.
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
Following the governmental propaganda, people don't realize that the biggest dose is not given by external radiation, but by internal contamination, because a particle in the body (lungs, bones, thyroid, ...) releases much more radiation (alpha, beta, and gamma), than the partial gamma radiation received from nearby fallout.
The dose rates given by the jap. and other governments are ONLY VALID IF YOU DON'T BREATHE AND EAT, people tend to forget that.
Measuring ambient radioactivity is really really not enough.
First, it heavily depends on the location and height of the sensor (fallout fixes on/in the floor, mainly), and can be biased.
More important is the amount and activity of particles & gasses that are in suspension in the air.
Measuring these can only be done using calibrated air pumps and filters, coupled with detectors (ideally a gamma spectrometer)
example here : http://www.sangyo-rodo.metro.tokyo.jp/whats-new/measurement.html
graphic here : http://www.criirad.org/actualites/dossier2011/japon_bis/J3-Courbes.pdf
After the beginning of the chernobyl accident, many people were contaminated mainly by air and food.
In the area where I come from (in France) which some thousands of km away from Tchernobyl, the air contamination & dose was similar in 1986 as in Tokyo mid-march, as a consequence, many people that were born 1983-1987 have tyroid deficiencies (proving that it was early contamination, and not external gamma exposition)
As the air contamination is still ongoing, It would be really great to have simple & cheap air analysis capability, even without spectrometry, this data is today cruelly missing, and absolutely necessary for risk analysis.
Pachube's been doing this for weeks already, and it's truly crowdsourced in that it's not some kind of centralizing system of like Safecast seems to be bt one where any body with any radiation hardware can push and pull the data. http://blog.pachube.com/2011/05/crowdsourcing-open-data-evolving-into.html
Unfortunately, life is more complicated.
A Geiger Counter is calibrated on a single element. It will measure ONE radiation from one element correctly (well, if properly re-calibrated yearly).
It will measure radiation with similar energies more or less correct. And then it drifts away.
I will stand by my statement : Measuring radiation is an expert task.
I worked in radiation environments now for more then 15 years as a scientist.
But if I want to know the radiation levels around me, I call in the experts.
Ok, usually I don't insult people - but seriously, are you stupid? Are you an expert on the Japanese nuclear political situation? Somehow I doubt it.
The culture in Japan is not to go off half-cocked and release news that hasn't been 100% vetted, as that would be irresponsible, so TEPCO and the government have been slow to release news until they are sure - that's pretty normal here in Japan though.
There's no evidence that anyone has been lying about anything. Also... you can buy geiger counters anywhere in Japan, especially Akihabara, and lots of universities and hobbyists have them and even post results online. It would be pretty hard for the government to cover anything up, much less the freaking power company. This isn't a communist state you know. geez.
30 years ago I proposed putting radiation sensors in watches. When cell phones became common, I asked why cell phones don't incorporate them.
I wonder if the current mess in Japan will bring cell phone radiation detectors to the market?
Or if it has already?
End MGM. Get prospective parents of boys to Google: Men do complain
That is sarcasm, right? I mean, yeah, it's not a communist country, but claiming that because of it the government and the power company cannot cover up stuff, or at least try, is pretty abysmally stupid. In particular because they are known to have done that quite a lot.