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I Like My IT Budget Tight and My Developers Stupid

Esther Schindler writes "'Who has money to train these guys nowadays? They should be lucky they're still employed, right? Keep thinking that way,' writes Lisa Vaas. The competition applauds your choice to glue your wallet shut. Or, to put this another way: This is why the boss won't pay for developer training. Vaas explains how those still training manage to get their training budgets funded."

49 of 235 comments (clear)

  1. yeah okay by Flyerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Really not trying to troll anyone with that summary.

    seriously.

    1. Re:yeah okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Speaking of stupid developers - what is it with blogs including hundreds of KB of Javascript for a mostly static page now?!

      Just check out the page size there - it's 1.5MB in size uncompressed (532KB compressed) for a pretty short article in a plain-looking page. Not only that but it pulls in scripts and documents from all over the web, slowing page loads even more..

    2. Re:yeah okay by x*yy*x · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's why it's inevitable that everything will soon be moved to cheaper countries. That's why US is fighting so hard to get strict copyrights all over the world now, because entertainment is basically the only thing US still has major lead in. But growing amount of people are starting to understand there might be better entertainment than the bubblegum hollywood stuff. The giant is falling and trying to fight back off its inevitable end.

    3. Re:yeah okay by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      Moreover, jQuery is only 57254 bytes in size, about a 10th of the total size the parent poster is complaining about.

      As for stripping out unneeded functionality from js libraries, that probably wouldn't affect page load times significantly, but if it's a high-traffic site, it would reduce the monthly bandwidth bill, so it might be worth it (not if it's a low-traffic site though). Of course, the downside of this is that jQuery is frequently loaded from other locations, or reused (you might already have it in memory from another site you visited recently), so making a custom version will eliminate those benefits.

      As for Eponymous, he deserves the troll mod he got. What an ass.

    4. Re:yeah okay by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      Hurray for Slashdot and its never ending ads for blogs.

    5. Re:yeah okay by The+Dawn+Of+Time · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is only the case in certain companies.

      You might as well summarize the article as "incompetent people don't know what they're doing"

      Slashdot's "No Shit Week" continues.

    6. Re:yeah okay by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When was the last time you didn't know more about new trends than your prof?

      Why the hell would an undergrad prof be teaching new trends? And yes, the prof usually knows a lot more than me in the area he teaches, that's why he's the prof and I go to his class. Meanwhile, training is focused on something small, like SVN or a dev methodology. No profs anywhere.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    7. Re:yeah okay by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      It is not about the training, it is about being able to substantiate your skills. Quality certification enables you to publicly substantiate your skill set, everything else is just a abstract claim until your skills are proven, or not, on the job.

      Of course the other main claim to coding skills is contributing to open source software, where your personal contributions are properly attributed.

      Outside of that you are relying on references from you current company, somewhat tricky (don't get that job your applying for and as a bonus you end up losing your current job for being unreliable) as references can be purposefully less than positive (the only time in competitive industries to give a glowing review is when you want to get rid of someone ie screw the opposition). There are also customer references, where you have dealt direct with customers and built a reputation.

      For those coders treated like mushrooms (kept in the dark and fed bullshit), with no public recognition, shifting jobs is difficult especially if you also want to shift localities, another state or country.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    8. Re:yeah okay by srodden · · Score: 3, Funny

      The prospect of an AI designed by slashdotters makes me tremble with fear.

      It would only run on linux, it would be constantly arguing with everyone, it would be an insufferable pedant, post pro-Stallman propaganda on every public forum on the net and spend the other half of its day trolling 4chan memes on social networks like bebo.

      --
      Why can't we let people believe whatever they like? It's not like a little religion has ever hurt anyone.
    9. Re:yeah okay by srodden · · Score: 2

      I suspect that makes it worse :)

      --
      Why can't we let people believe whatever they like? It's not like a little religion has ever hurt anyone.
    10. Re:yeah okay by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      DMCA, yes, but copyright terms were extended in most of the world by the Berne conventions many years before the U.S. signed on and brought their copyright law into compliance. Basically, the U.S. and Europe leapfrog each other in an effort to make a bigger mess than the other one.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    11. Re:yeah okay by meloneg · · Score: 2

      Um. Do you not know where your iGadget was made?

  2. Why Train? by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When they'll do it themselves on their own time and their own dime?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Why Train? by williamhb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When they'll do it themselves on their own time and their own dime?

      It depends on the topic. It is quite likely that the more interested engineers will teach themselves Scala or some other hot language after hours. It is much less likely that they will spend their home time learning how to integrate with AcmeHorribleLegacySystem or FooCorpProprietaryTechTheyCantAccess that you need your software to work with in order for your business to earn cash. And it's not terribly easy to direct what people learn after hours -- half the replies to this post might well say "Scala??? Why would you want to learn that, ${OtherTrendingLanguage} is the way of the future!".

      The bigger problem with training from my perspective it that it is usually so dumbed down and slow.

    2. Re:Why Train? by YojimboJango · · Score: 2

      From first hand experience I know this to be true.

      When I get home and want to tinker with something, I know my bosses at work would love it if I spent a bunch of time learning perl so I could come to work and work on those ancient obfuscated scripts. What they don't understand is that I play with python in my free time specifically because I don't want to have to be the guy that has to deal with that mess. If they sent me off to do some training I'd be more than happy to go, but it's like the article said. I'm instantly profitable racking up hours doing C#, let the grizzled veterans sort out the 15 year old legacy perl (they do a better job of it than I could anyways please please please don't ever retire and make me do it).

    3. Re:Why Train? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 2

      Maybe if they offered more money...

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  3. Most developer training is useless. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most developer training is absolutely useless. For any recent technology, unless you've got one of the engineers directly from the vendor teaching you, you're likely only going to be dealing with a consultant or lecturer that has read a book on the subject, and has maybe played with the technology in question for a week or two.

    The time is better spent in the trenches, going to battle with the technology you want to learn about. You'll need to fight with it. You'll need to grab it by the testes and twist it into what you need it to be; into what you need it to do. You will learn so much more than if you sit in a room with a bunch of your co-workers and listen to the lecturer ramble on, using one unrealistic micro-example after another.

    1. Re:Most developer training is useless. by Palmsie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It sounds like your experience with training is more about poor training environments than it is about the usefulness of training itself. Training is supposed to... well, train you. Train you for what? For actually using the software in real environments for real problems and creating real solutions. If the training isn't accomplishing this it may be that the training company/trainer/consultant is garbage.

      --
      Carl Sagan quotes get you an automatic +5 on all posts.
    2. Re:Most developer training is useless. by Eponymous+Hero · · Score: 2

      it may be that the majority of training providers are garbage, hence the sentiment that training is useless. if useful training were more prevalent than not, wouldn't you see more comments in favor? i took a class on android development, but it was good for theory only. the anonymous coward above is right: if you don't have a use for a technology then just reading about it, or watching a demo, isn't going to turn on any lightbulbs for you. training doesn't show you what to do when things go wrong (the most valuable kind of knowledge btw), just how to make a simple use case go right. in the end, training sessions don't do much more than pique the interest of the few who are willing to apply the new tech themselves -- they don't replace hours of search engine joyriding to find out how to make the pos work how you want it to. going to training does not make you proficient at the subject.

      --
      insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
    3. Re:Most developer training is useless. by MarcoAtWork · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is more to training than "time spent in the trenches"

      - learning a new language/paradigm often allows you to think of your current language/environment in new ways
      - often at a conference/training there will be BOF sessions and/or Q&As that are worth a lot more than the training/conference themselves, but if you're not there you won't see them
      - at a conference/training you can expand your network, so next time your company is hiring you can remember that person xxx at course yyy was great to work with and you can try to refer them
      - if your company sends you to an expensive conference/training it's saying that they care about your career enough to invest in it, rather than treating you like a shelf-limited resource
      - training/conferences can expose you to different areas that you would not necessarily work in, and often this exposure translates in insights directly applicable to your area

      of course the % of companies that actually see their employees as a valuable resource instead of as an easily replaced cog is exceedingly small, after all companies that force developers to work on antiquated PCs with postage-stamp monitors and on rickety dollar store chairs aren't likely to spend 3-4k/year + time off for their education...

      --
      -- the cake is a lie
    4. Re:Most developer training is useless. by DrgnDancer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's also worth pointing out that while the summary, and to a certain extent the article, focuses on traditional "become a certified Share Point guru" sorts of training; there's a strong undercurrent of people "training" in the sense of just being given on the clock time to learn stuff and play with tech. At least one company is specifically mentioned as having a policy similar to Google's "20%" where they expect their tech employees to spend 20% of their time (on the clock) learning, working on personal projects, and generally unwinding. This company has seem efficiency gains rather than loses since implementing the policy. The majority of the article does focus on the kind of training that a lot of slashdotters consider useless (I don't entirely agree, but I can see the point), but there's definitely kernels of wisdom floating around in there too.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    5. Re:Most developer training is useless. by DrgnDancer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They also tend to force you to not do the "I'ma skip this chapter, because I know this stuff" that often plagues my attempts at self training. Sometimes suffering through the chapter with the stuff you know can help put something in perspective, give you some critical insight on how this implementation is in fact slightly different than what you thought you knew, or just give you a critical refresher you didn't think you needed. I can and have forced myself to read that chapter anyway, but I know I'm not giving it the attention it deserves. In a classroom you have little else to do anyway, so you generally pay attention; and sometimes go "Oh, hey, I hadn't thought about that. Glad we did this part after all".

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    6. Re:Most developer training is useless. by kbielefe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've been pretty impressed by the training my company has been able to put together lately.

      • Seth Hallem, founder and former CEO of Coverity came to teach us about their static analysis tool.
      • Dan Saks came to teach us about embedded software best practices.
      • Scott Meyers came to teach us about using the STL effectively.
      • James Grenning came to teach us about test driven development.
      • Michael Barr came to teach us about real time scheduling.

      Most of these guys are well respected in their fields, and while not exactly famous, are names I had seen more than once in connection with those topics. All of them spent some time looking at our company's needs specifically before doing the training in order to customize it for us. Our company isn't small, but not huge either. We have around 1600 employees, a few hundred of which took the training. It has really helped us revitalize a lot of our old school techniques. If a company our size can put a line up of training like that together, it ought to be within reach of most mid-size organizations.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank.
  4. Re:WTF by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 2

    In general I agree, but requiring that developers learn something they need for work on their own in their free time isn't really fair, developers have lives too, so at the very least the budget should include time for developers to read up on these things in their working hours.

  5. Article was written like crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    But it totally misses the reasoning, at least in my field. Wireless telecom has very large variety of equipment that is vendor specific, or protocol specific and I have never seen a comprehensive field of classes out there besides the vendors that supply the equipment. Due to this, and nobody wanting to lock themselves in small segment tied to only one vendor, they do not spend their own money to learn it all. My experience was starting from college with an IT background, and a smart manager hiring me fresh, because back then he knew the seperate telecom world was going to clash with IT, while the old guys did not think they needed to know anything about IP.

    They sent everyone to trainiung, at least a couple times. The ones who did not appear to use the knowledge, or even retain stayed on the bottom tiers while those who did grow got promotions, and eventually left the operations group to engineering.

    I stuck with that company for awhile, then management changed, and with it their beliefs. I no longer received training, and I started to stagnate as an employee, since instead of giving us project's for things we knew, but they would rather hire from outside than promote/train from within. This saves the bottom line on the short term, but with that mindset also changes the mindset of the employee's. Now instead of everyone wanting to stay with company it was valid that the only way to move ahead was to change employers. People coming into the same company demanded higher salaries than an internal promotion would get, and the cycle continued. Now that company is suffering, in particular having a problem with retention. I too have since left, to another company that still helps me grow, and with that I help my current employer grow. I like it here!

    So no, the company doesn't want its employee's to be stupid but they fail to see the long term effect their plan gives. In my experience it changed Netops/engineering from a group of faithful employee's who could see a future with them, into the departments having a revolving door.

    1. Re:Article was written like crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      hahaha sounds so familiar.

      It's the new way of running business. Owner hired an operations manager with those beliefs, hired tons of useless, extremely high paid people, fired everyone who was competent as he saw them as useless as their pay was lower. fired my boss because he believed they could do better by hiring an ITT tech graduate. They added a new role and hired a consultant from Las Vegas who had no experience with server 2003 let alone 2008, ignored everything I said, treated me as if I had no idea what I was doing. Then when I quit, they hired an ITT tech graduate.

      a year and a half later, their network is in shambles, the turnover rate is about 1 month, the people in the lowest parts of the company get paid MINIMUM wage, and they've got five lawsuits on their hands now (why he hired the operations manager in the first place, to avoid this) because they hired unqualified employees because qualified employees they'd have to pay more than minimum wage. So after these employees let a few people die on their watch (this was an adult care company) shit got worse.

      All of this to cut costs! but they ended up spending so much more money going with cloud computing and overpaid lofty bullshit positions where those people just look at porn all day and take vacations every 2 weeks.

      Bonus! They cancelled all water services because "buying water jugs for the office coolers was just too expensive" instead they bought $1000 pallets of water bottles to distribute amongst all the locations, and were shocked that after a day that all the water bottles were used up. So they started buying $5,000 worth of pallets. week, tops.

      Water service: $50 location at the most. less if they were leasing a filtration machine that just used tap water and filtered it (lol, doesnt filter anything.)

      It's the new business mentality, driven by egotistical morons who do generous rounding in their heads and make up imaginary numbers to cut costs rather than sit down and analyze the costs, and spending where necessary and saving where necessary.

      on an IT related note: The new IT guys quadrupled the IT spending budget after we left. We ran it, willingly, on a shoestring budget, and only got expensive stuff where necessary, and made sure it came with warranties. These idiots built custom built PCs, invested heavily in tens of thousands of dollars of cisco equipment that sat around, and a lot of it was unaccounted for after they were fired. What they did replace with cisco equipment broke the network badly, and rid of any cost effective solutions we implemented. Funny how fast your former employer begs for help when sending a file across a windows domain in the same office takes 45 minutes due to networking clusterfucks and improperly configured devices. Not that I helped them, I do not want to even go near that nightmare.

      Yes, the only way to get up in the company after that was to leave, and that's what I did. I get paid a little less now, but I bring home more due to commission, and I am a lot better now than I was at that old company.

    2. Re:Article was written like crap by SharpFang · · Score: 2

      The problem is not about getting you trained in using an obscure piece of hardware from an obscure vendor. The fear is once you receive valuable training, you will move on to greener pastures. The investment in you will be lost, and since your demands would then rise (because you're trained/certified) retaining you with the same salary would be harder.

      Think about the people your company was hiring from outside. Where did they get their skills and knowledge? On what basis were they able to demand on startup more than a seasoned in-house employee?

      The answer is some other company tried to save money on hiring highly trained staff - they hired unexperienced people just after studies instead, for quite low salaries, then sent them to expensive, extensive training courses. Which would result in highly-trained employees with quite low salaries. Except they decided their value has risen and left for employer that was willing to pay them their new worth. And while you'd be still needed on your lowly tech position, hiring an expert would be cheaper than training you.

      costly training + low salary = 100% loss, employee leaves for greener pastures.
      expensive expert with high salary = costly but acceptable.
      costly training + high salary = costlier, you pay the salary AND training costs.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  6. As an IT Manager by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I welcome my idiot colleagues that take this approach. To an IT pro, training is as valuable a method of retaining good staff as offering more money. Being proactive and obtaining training for your staff tells them you actually give a damn about them and their future, whether with the company or not, which promotes loyalty in employees who recognize the effort and, lo and behold, INCREASES the chances of retaining talent.

    Those that don't care are likely to move on anyway regardless of what you do. Those that only work for money and don't want training aren't the kind of employees I want on my staff anyway (the only exception being those that go home at the end of the day and do their job as a hobby as well).

    Ultimately this approach is self-defeating as the staff is untrained on evolving technology. Not only will the talent leave, those that are left are incapable of handling new projects that Management demands making you, as the manager, look like a FOOL when you can't deliver.

  7. You don't need a certification to know something by Megor1 · · Score: 2

    This article seems to be about selling you that paper certifications are something you need for your employees. Anyone who has interviewed or worked with many of the people with these certifications knows that they are worthless. My favorite was a MCSE that didn't know how to install a video card driver. What matters is that the people can actually do the work, if they self taught/apprenticed I'll take them anyday over a certification

    --
    Everyone that disagrees with me is a paid shill
  8. Give your people raises. by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No secret, the only way to get a decent raise is to jump ship. No one gets up the ladder at one company. Get experience, go to another job and get the raise you should have gotten, then get more experience, jump ship again.

    I worked for two fortune 100 companies, and people would quit, and then they'd be back in 2-3 years. Earning 30% more.

    Companies would rather hire an outsider with paper experience than give someone who knows the company a big enough raise to keep them. I even went for salary matching once and got a counter offer $8k less.

    Pay me what I'm worth, and the certifications won't lead me away. Otherwise I'm skipping back and forth, chasing a decent raise.

    1. Re:Give your people raises. by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 2

      Fuck that, I quit, my pay went up more than 20% the next day, and my stress went down.

      And I wasn't making exactly below market when I quit, And it was a bad economy.

      And the best thing corporate training sessions are for, especially things like the 'free' oracle developer days, and similar shit, is for networking. Make friends with people from the other companies, get cards and/or email addresses. Keep in touch with the assholes who leave your company. Thats how you land the good jobs.

      The pimps will get you in, they may even get you in at or slightly above market, but your the contacts can usually do you better.

      And remember your career is your fucking responsibility, not your manager's. If your manager gets you training, or gives you time for self training, goody. If not, who the fuck cares. Take charge and train yourself, because ultimately you have to take care of your own shit.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    2. Re:Give your people raises. by Kagetsuki · · Score: 2

      I'm assuming you are American. This is not always the case in other countries and it is certainly not the case here in Japan. Loyalty between company and employee is an important part of our corporate culture and loyal employees are often very well rewarded. There is also the option to jump back and fourth, we call it "haken" and you choose or get chosen for a job you are likely to be good at and work on short term contracts. The downside to haken is that you don't get raises or benefits and after a few years will be getting less than your corporate employee counterparts.

    3. Re:Give your people raises. by wrook · · Score: 2

      Do that too much and in a down market you will price yourself out of a job. I've seen it happen many times. You get these guys who play the system trying to get that extra couple of percent raise every year and before you know it they are making 30% more than anyone else. But then the company gets hit hard some way and they find some excuse to lay off the expensive talent. Then these expensive guys go around trying to find another job, but can't land a thing because their last job was considerably higher than what anyone else pays. The management don't believe that the person will settle for a lower salary and don't even make an offer.

      I always priced myself below the market. In the end I admittedly got paid less than the guys scrambling for higher salaries (even taking into account the time they were unemployable looking for a job). But I *like* working. I am absolutely sure that my management always considered me a bargain and I would be the last one they would want to lay off for any reason. That has value too.

      I'm not saying that what you are doing is wrong. Everybody has their motivating factors. For some it is money. But if money is not so important to you, it's best to keep your eyes on other things. When someone asked me what I wanted for salary, my answer was always, "Money doesn't motivate me. Pay me a reasonable wage and that will be fine. But I want to work for a company that feels comfortable with the idea that the quality of my life at work is more important than the amount of money I take home at the end of the day."

  9. The death of Middle Management by Wolfling1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Great swathes of middle management tiers were slashed during the early 90s in a vain attempt to show shareholders that organisations were more 'lean'. This senior management mentality left many organisations with no one who knew their business systems from a management perspective, and no one glueing together the corporate culture.

    The unappreciated middle manager was the guy (pardon the sexist reference, but before the 90s, they mostly were guys) who established business systems and then went about implementing and policing them. For some strange reason, senior managers believed that they could replace this critical part of the organisation with code-cutters.

    For a limited time it worked. You can make burgers with a robotic arm. However, it eventually started to slide sideways when people realised that their career was not going to be furthered by a performance management spreadsheet, and when their workmates were being retrenched by e-mail, the workers went into open revolt. Through no fault of their own, the IT workers were blamed for this loss of corporate identity - and the IT retrenchments that followed Y2K were testament to the corporate beliefs.

    Now, ten years has passed, and this article has surfaced about 20 times. Despite its title, its NOT about training IT boffins. Its about trying to rebuild the middle management layer. People like Lisa Vaas have realised that the only viable candidates for the role are the IT people. They are the only ones who understand the business systems, and are the only ones who interact with the business on a horizontal plane instead of a vertical one.

    Sadly, senior management are still trying to woo the shareholders with their clever cost cutting measures. And they feel more than a little threatened by the IT folk who know all their dirty little secrets. I doubt that any training gleaned by this approach will be more useful than a PHP refresher. Worse still, that is all that Lisa is asking for - when really, the IT crowd are the only ones holding the corporate life preserver these days.

    1. Re:The death of Middle Management by DDLKermit007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The funny thing that I've noticed is that management at the big corps still don't care about this. I've been watching this specific scenario happen over and over. IT turns into a kludge due to a lack of direction (those managers you speak of missing), and for whatever reason these companies think the answer is cutting costs even further. How they are doing it? Outsourcing! Your local helpdesk to India or Philippines, and your local IT people? Pushed over to the outsource company if they are techs, and if they are coders, engineers, etc. they have been getting the axe. They end up replacing them all with overworked people from the outsourcing company who come in with no clue about the buisness, likely will never set foot on their buisnesses property, and think all of that will make things better.

      Larger corporations really have quite the hatred for the very people they need to make the wheels go round, and it makes no sense to me. They all end up getting burned anyways. They either end up having to kick the outsource group out on their ass, and try to kiss ass to their employees they just screwed, stagnate since projects to push the company forward cost the outsource group money when what's in place "works right now", or even more comically, they end up bringing on an VIP IT staff specifically to manage the higher up's ideas and problems since the outsource companies won't do a damn thing an SLA doesn't make them do, CIOs know this, but run with it anyways for that bonus before they jump ship.

      It's getting much worse before it'll get better...

    2. Re:The death of Middle Management by rAiNsT0rm · · Score: 2

      I've been in IT since 386/486 days and it has been a steady decline ever since. I work for a global company and I'm one of only two network admins *total*. In fact the entire corporate IT staff is eight including the helpdesk and server admins. However, we have 6 managers including the CIO. That is almost a manager per person and the managers are not technical. IT depts have become so lean and skimpy but those at the top manage to cling to their titles and positions even to the detriment of everything else.

      24/7 on-call, skeleton crews, over-worked, micromanaged, little to no respect for knowledge or professionalism, travel, and insane demands. The field itself is broken and is only going to get much worse with companies now dropping CIOs and making IT the bitches of each dept. directly... and those are Fortune 500 companies making these moves. I've honestly reached the end of my career in this field and after I leave my current position I plan on changing paths completely... not that much else is any better right now.

      It's only a matter of time before BRIC has decimated the US and we are in for some rough days ahead. Hopefully it will force a reset on a lot of broken systems and policies.

      --
      http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
  10. Re:Mod parent up. by uptownguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not only that, but training is different from experience.

    Not only that, but people often muddy the issue by confusing the terms education (attending a class, studying to pass a cert test) with training (hands on, real-world experience).

    To help clarify the difference, a colleague of mine once put it this way... if you are having trouble drawing a distinction between education and training: Just think of your teenage daughter and how you would feel if her school offered sex education vs. sex training...

    --


    I would have to say that explosives are the most abused technology in all of history.
  11. It's a game theory problem by mwfischer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Let's make a moron matrix.

    Miserable environment + no further education = going to leave (unless they're morons. the dumb ones get comfortable and will stay and continue to shit all over the place) You lose in productivity and group morale as everyone hates IT or Joe User tries to fix things on their own making things even worse.

    Miserable environment + education = probably going to leave after "free training" (read - opportunity cost). If you're going to run a shit hole, run a shit hole. Don't randomly throw them a bone. They'll make it into a ladder. Simply bad / clueless management does this.

    Great environment + no education = probably going to learn on your own to be happy. The law of diminishing returns applies here. It's going to suck soon unless you pay them / give a title / whatever makes the little buggers happy. You're soaking management / planning costs here. Managers are more expensive than grunts.

    Great environment + education = you're going to keep them longer. LoDR also applies here, but the effect is slower.

    Basically....
    As an employee, make your mistakes on someone else's dime. When you used up all internal opportunity, bail to greener pastures.

    As a director you have a choice. You can get by making a technology barren revolving door shit hole (and don't forget how it messes with the entire org system morale). You lose productivity in having to get new people to adapt but you don't spend "visible" dollars.

    As a director you can make a genuine nice place to work. Give education opportunities, make a nice organic learning culture, and treat people with respect. Hire those who will support this structure. You spend "visible" dollars on training and gain "invisible" dollars on productivity rates, retention, and expertise. The worker will become more efficient over time. You will slowly spend more visible dollars on cost of living / regular raises and promotions but efficiency will increase until it plateaus. If they earn, they earn. Else, into the woodchopper you go.

    1. Re:It's a game theory problem by sockman · · Score: 2

      Law of Diminishing Returns perhaps?

    2. Re:It's a game theory problem by dredwerker · · Score: 2

      As a director you can make a genuine nice place to work. Give education opportunities, make a nice organic learning culture, and treat people with respect. Hire those who will support this structure. You spend "visible" dollars on training and gain "invisible" dollars on productivity rates, retention, and expertise. The worker will become more efficient over time. You will slowly spend more visible dollars on cost of living / regular raises and promotions but efficiency will increase until it plateaus. If they earn, they earn. Else, into the woodchopper you go.

      I think the problem with this comes with these pesky people called shareholders. The director is not really in charge. The quickest way to make returns for shareholders is by the bean counters cutting back(so no training courses or rises and a few redundancies). The shareholders want a return now and then on to the next company. Shareholders have the least interest in the long term outcome of the company and probably the most sway.

      --
      On a long enough timeline. The survival rate for everyone drops to zero. Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, 1996
  12. As usual, it depends by starfishsystems · · Score: 4, Interesting

    First, let me address something important and then set it aside. Training is for monkeys. Education is for humans.

    Okay. This is a field in which rapid turnover of skill requirements is a given. Therefore, staff will not be able to deliver their best unless they are provided with the means to keep their skills fresh and relevant. I realize that even such a basic proposition as this will have its detractors, but frankly, they're idiots. There isn't much more to discuss on that front.

    On the other hand, there's lots to discuss when it comes to finding effective means for staff to maintain relevant skills. I remember how shocked I was when I first got out of university and went on some of the technical courses required and paid by my industry employer. Hour for hour, the cost was at least 50 times higher than what I had paid for course time at university. And the content was laughably thin. And the instructors usually cut a few corners, because the students, for the most part, were disinterested. This was in 1980 when hardware vendors provided courses in their own operating systems. Yes, in principle it was a good idea to provide this important aspect of product support. In practice, the approach was exceedingly inefficient.

    Good documentation was to become an even better idea. Take the original Unix documentation for example. It wasn't a course in system design, but if you had a reasonably general systems background you could rely on the documentation to fill in the specifics. And you could learn what you needed to know at your own pace. And it was free. All you needed was time. Most vendors became very committed to documentation. I'm not sure what was happening in the training industry at the time, because for decades I never ran into a situation which needed it.

    As time passed, however, a different trend began to assert itself. Consumer products gradually began to ship with less and less documentation. Most of what remained seemed to consist of legal disclaimers. On the industrial side of the fence, a similar trend followed about a decade later. Vendor literature is fancier than ever, but also considerably more vacuous. There are lots of pretty screenshots explaining what form fields to fill out, but not what the fields mean or what processing is taking place behind the facade, much less to provide an analysis of the general case.

    In other words, the state of vendor documentation today is what vendor training was like thirty years ago. And this is good business, because if you want anything more, you're going to have to pay for it. Alas, the training is no better than the documentation. It's worse, perhaps, for anyone whose reading speed is faster than human speech.

    Given this dismal state of affairs, I can see why employers don't find a lot of value in sending their staff off for training, especially if they have to travel to some distant city for several days. But don't let them throw the baby out with the bathwater! There are many other channels of education apart from the training industry. Some are enormously better value. You simply have to be willing to explore them. Conferences are a traditional example, as are university extension courses. I'm personally in favor of exchange programs, where organizations in the same sector allow their staff to trade places or engage in projects of common interest.

    We should regard such undertakings as characteristic of our profession, and show some initiative around them. Otherwise we are reduced to following, to being monkeys. In that case, training may be the right word after all.

    --
    Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
  13. Read this the other day on LinkedIn: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    CFO says to CEO, "What if we spend all this money on training everyone, and they leave?"
    CEO replies, "What if we don't spend the money and they stay?"

  14. Re:Would you pay to train a hooker to suck? by TheCarp · · Score: 2

    Well in a Sex worker/Customer relationship? No.

    However, what if you are a pimp/brothel owner? These are your employees. A girl who learns to suck a mean cock may fetch a lot more business in the long term than one who uses too much teeth.

    I doubt that some basic level of training isn't quite common in such relationships.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  15. Re:You don't need a certification to know somethin by YojimboJango · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Your comment is telling.

    You're not sending your good employees (you know, the ones that you already know are intelligent) out to get certs. You're attempting to hire talent that already comes pre-trained so you don't have to do it. Anyone can fake their way through a class and memorize questions for a test, your goal should be to know your workers and send the ones that show promise off.

    Find that smart kid from ops who seems to spend his days fixing printers and ghosting machines and send him out to get a MSCE. You'll probably wind up with half decent net admin when you're done. Hiring some mouth breather just because he paid for a cert and you've got a 95% chance of failure.

    Actually that could be a way to weed out cert idiots, just ask them who paid for the cert. If it's their last employer it could be an indicator that they saw some talent there. Food for thought that.

  16. Re:That young fired up guy... and conferences by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Aaaah, to be 23 again. Full of equal amounts of shit and confidence without the wisdom to know it.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  17. Re:Recommended training courses? by FlyingGuy · · Score: 2

    Too many years ago I took "C for Professional Programmers" at UC Berkeley Extension because I was running into some places that I could not fathom a way out of. The guy teaching it had written a couple of books on compiler design and knew his stuff. I had to sort through some cruft, but it was a good course overall.

    check your local University for extension courses, most aren't cheep and are usually worth the money you pay.

    --
    Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
  18. Re:Mod parent up. by pla · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Instead, you should DEMAND that they read books (that you bought) and pass certifications (that you pay for) and then use those skills on side projects.

    Wow, way to lose your best talent - Y'know, the ones that actually have options other than putting up with you, Mr. Bonaparte?

    If you "DEMAND" that I learn CrappyLegacySystemX that I will never, ever see outside the present job, I'd do what it takes to learn it and make myself the best damned CLS-X coder you've ever had; but you can bet your ass I'd do it on company time, and we can take it up with the labor board if you expect me to learn externally-useless skills, unpaid (no, buying the goddamned books and tests doesn't count, you weasel). Or more realistically, you'd give me an ultimatum, and I'd laugh as you squirm when I call your bluff and leave for greener pastures.

    If, however, you want to help me learn ThingI'veExpressedAnInterestIn, which oh by the way happens to translate directly into skills applicable to CLS-X, then we can talk. But don't think my off-the-clock time belongs to your whims except insofar as they first satisfy my own.

    Good managers don't threaten and manipulate, they remove obstacles to their team getting the job done. And when the manager himself counts as the obstacle... The same rule still applies. Remove yourself, or explain steadily declining output to your own boss, when no one but C-student interns will put up with you.

  19. Re:Mod parent up. by DragonWriter · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Not only that, but people often muddy the issue by confusing the terms education (attending a class, studying to pass a cert test) with training (hands on, real-world experience).

    Inventing distinctions that aren't part of the existing definitions of words, and then blaming other people by "confusing the issue" because they don't use your non-standard distinction between the words is, well, rather bizarre.

    While certainly study of abstract theory can be distinguished to an extent from hands-on practice, "education" isn't limited to the former, and "training" isn't limited to the latter. And, really, even ignoring the semantics, the division is somewhat artificial for things like programming (or most active intellectual pursuits.) If you can't apply the theory in practice, you don't actually understand the theory, and if you don't understand the theory, you've got very limited practical scope, as well. Professional education -- or professional training -- involves theory and practical application together.

  20. Re:You don't need a certification to know somethin by scamper_22 · · Score: 2

    I don't think you quite understand how the rest of society operates.

    My wife works in insurance. Most of my family works in the public sector.

    The rest of society works by getting an education for a specific job and any small change... you get training. The idea of hiring someone with 'potential' just doesn't exist in 95% of the world.

    Let me give you a little contrast here.

    Doctors spend years studying medicine and then a few more years specializing in some narrow field. They continue to work in that narrow field for years, often just doing the same procedures over and over again.

    Contrast that with core router equipment supporting the internet. A system with as many complexities as some medical specialization. Oh... just hire some new grad with some general knowledge and have them design and debug issues. Hey, that new grad was me not too long ago :P

    Every time one of my family members at work gets a new computer program to use... no matter how small... they get training on it. This is ingrained in 95% of the rest of the workplace. My mother was hiring for some position in the public sector and I read the job description. They put in some obscure computer data entry program that you would of course only use if you worked for the city.

    It's really only in tech and R&D where technology is rapid and people are generally apt at self-learning that we think people should just be hired for potential. Of course I think this is the better way :)... but I don't really blame the HR, business people... they do what 95% of society does.

    We're the oddballs and quite frankly it is up to us to organize to make sure our field does well.

    There are lots of way. Both doctors and lawyers have professional programs with training built in. You can't do surgery without being a professional licensed doctor with know how and proper training. Yet any nitwit can be hired to operate a router.

    There will always be a trade off in these areas. Yet I guarantee the same people ranting how ignorant businesses are... are the same people who rant against professional systems.