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Apple Discusses iOS Privacy Issues Before Congress

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the it-was-an-accident-we-swear dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Earlier today, Apple's VP of software technology, Guy L. 'Bud' Tribble appeared before a congressional hearing on mobile privacy to address concerns that were first brought to the forefront following the 'location tracking' controversy that emerged a few weeks ago."

132 comments

  1. GET STEVE JOBS !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Stick it to the man, man !!

    1. Re:GET STEVE JOBS !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      You know all it'll take is His Eminence The Almighty Savior Steve Jobs(tm) showing up before Congress, waving his hand a bit, and saying "we need that tracking data or else the next color^Wgeneration of iPhones will be delayed". Then the matter will be immediately dropped, profuse apologies by the highest-ranking senators and legislators will be issued, and Saint Jobs will be compensated by Congress for the time he was forced to spend away from Apple.

      And then he'll wave his hand around again and try to convince them to stop Amazon and Google from doing anything relating to music, ever.

    2. Re:GET STEVE JOBS !! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      "We need that tracking data otherwise how can I locate my next liver donor?"

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  2. Advice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Remember Guy, the fifth amendment is your friend.

    1. Re:Advice by Predius · · Score: 1

      Uhhh... Google was dragged before the same kangaroo court, which you'd know if you RTFA.

    2. Re:Advice by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2

      TFS really isn't worth a lot, and TFA seems to be an ego-centric Apple article. But, people who keep up with the news already knew that there were going to be more people than Apple's shills testifying at that hearing. First Google hit on my set of search terms: http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/congress-hears-from-apple-and-google-on-privacy/?partner=rss&emc=rss

      You can use your own search terms - or, you can just read the news headlines from most of the major news outlets. It ain't about Apple. It's about citizen's right to privacy.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    3. Re:Advice by macs4all · · Score: 0

      It ain't about Apple. It's about citizen's right to privacy.

      Yeah, and we're really kicking that one in the butt...

      Gimme a break! Apple keeps some cell-tower data in a database they didn't size correctly (data that was way too coarse-grained and coarse-timed to do much of anything anyway), then they FIX it without even being made to, and yet THEY are the bad guys? Gimme a break!

      Read the linked Time Magazine article, above, if you want to identify REAL eeeee-vil. And the Courts are just FINE with it.

  3. The trouble... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ...with Tribbles

    1. Re:The trouble... by EraserMouseMan · · Score: 2

      Yea, no wonder iPhones seem to be multiplying like jack rabbits.

    2. Re:The trouble... by Kiaser+Zohsay · · Score: 1

      My first thought was "Dude, is that really your name?"

      --
      I am not your blowing wind, I am the lightning.
    3. Re:The trouble... by Cwix · · Score: 1

      Really/ I haven't seen one in months. I saw an iPad the other day though.

      --
      You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
    4. Re:The trouble... by dwillden · · Score: 1

      Crap! too true. That means not only are they multiplying like jack rabbits but they are mutating in size and shape. Within a few years they will achieve the perfect 1:4:9 proportions and the apple iMonoliths will take over the galaxy.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    5. Re:The trouble... by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Actually the iMonoliths will turn Jupiter into a second sun so the His royal Highness Steve Jobs can finally take off his black turtleneck while living in CA.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    6. Re:The trouble... by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Crap! too true. That means not only are they multiplying like jack rabbits but they are mutating in size and shape. Within a few years they will achieve the perfect 1:4:9 proportions and the apple iMonoliths will take over the galaxy.

      Boy, do I wish I had some graphics skills! I can't believe no one has done an iPhone == Monolith parody; but I couldn't find one. If my search-fu is just weak, someone please post a link!

  4. How it went... by Bobfrankly1 · · Score: 1

    Earlier today, Apple's VP of software technology, Guy L. 'Bud' Tribble appeared before a congressional hearing on mobile privacy to address concerns that were first brought to the forefront following the 'location tracking' controversy that emerged a few weeks ago.

    How did you do it?
    Can you do it again without it being discovered?
    We would like to introduce you to your contact at the FBI.

    1. Re:How it went... by DJRumpy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you had read the article, you would know that the info Apple stores relates to cell tower locations, and wifi hotspots. No identifying information is sent to Apple at all, and they would have no way of identifying you even if approached by the FBI. They would have to get their hands on your phone, which within a few days, already had a fix to remove the cache after a few days, and you can permanently delete it just by turning off the location services.

      If it got to the point where warrants were issued, they could easily collect device specific info from the Cell providers. Apple's data didn't even have device specific identifiers.

      Google on the other hand started talking about 'Openess' and finding 'balance', when their response was anything but. They basically stated that they weren't responsible for how the app's handled location data and that it was up to the app developers to be responsible. Of the two, I think Apples response was appropriate, both in patching the bug in the OS, and in anonymizing the data they do collect to begin with.

      From TFA:

      Subsequently, a notable exchange between Google rep Alan Davidson. Trying to dance around how Google handles location settings in Android, Davidson explained:
      We’re trying to increase openness, but it’s not no-holds-barred. We do have a content policy in our market. We don’t go after trucking companies for carrying faulty goods, you go after the manufacturer. There’s a balance.
      Not buying it, Senator Sheldon Whitehouse fired back:
      You do go after the trucking company if they know what they’re carrying. Google’s in a better position to know what’s going on than a seventeen year old that wants to try a cool app. I don’t think that’s a comfortable analogy for you to rely on.

      This kind of response from Microsoft or Apple would never be tolerated on slashdot. This thread just seems to be glossing over Google's response. The proper response from both companies is to work to provide better protections. Apple has already taken those steps within a few days of the bug being reported. Google just sidestepped the question with no commitment to finding a better approach.

      Disappointing.

    2. Re:How it went... by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      Does this surprise you? And does it surprise you that the focus still seems to be on Apple for what was a pretty hyper inflated sky is falling hysteria, and yet Google is let off scott free by the press and the folks buying into the "open" propaganda?

    3. Re:How it went... by LateArthurDent · · Score: 1

      We’re trying to increase openness, but it’s not no-holds-barred. We do have a content policy in our market. We don’t go after trucking companies for carrying faulty goods, you go after the manufacturer. There’s a balance.
      Not buying it, Senator Sheldon Whitehouse fired back:
      You do go after the trucking company if they know what they’re carrying. Google’s in a better position to know what’s going on than a seventeen year old that wants to try a cool app. I don’t think that’s a comfortable analogy for you to rely on.

      But Google does not know what they're carrying, because they're not in the business of reviewing apps that can or cannot be installed on the computer before they allow it in the marketplace, like Apple got in the business of. If somebody informs them that an app is violating their terms, they remove it from the store and kill-switch it, but they have no way of knowing ahead of time, and somebody could still install it from unofficial sources.

      This kind of response from Microsoft or Apple would never be tolerated on slashdot.

      Actually, it's completely consistent with the overall geek stance. We don't want the phone manufacturers to tell us what we can or can't install on our phones (thus all the complaints about the Apple-controlled app store), we want general purpose computing devices that happen to be phones. As with viruses in your PC, it's the general stance of the population here that you're responsible for what you install. If you do trust an application from a particular company, and they violate your trust, your beef is with that company, not the manufacturer of your phone (or phone's OS).

  5. NoooooO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Business: "Blah balh balh baahh ab;lhnz'l;kcj[a'j hatever ..."

    Congress: " Well balhh abllhaofha;fh;adh;afh"

    business: No sir because: "alfja;dfhadf;af;a"

    Congress: "You're right. here's some laws that benefit you!"

    End of story.

  6. Watch out for your cornhold "Bud" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    etc

    1. Re:Watch out for your cornhold "Bud" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe the correct term is "Corn Crib" and houses almost universally don't have them anymore.

  7. Questioning by tripleevenfall · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think Facebook and Google need to be drug out before these commissions as well.

    We need serious laws with serious teeth on privacy in every space - home internet, mobile data, and everywhere else. CLEAR opt ins and opt outs, not garbage buried in a TOS document no one reads.

    The BIGGEST problem is that most people and corporations think it's OK to collect personal information and location data as long as "this can't be tied back to an individual person". That is NOT OK.

    1. Re:Questioning by jrj102 · · Score: 2

      I think Facebook and Google need to be drug out before these commissions as well.

      Google did testify. However, where Apple sent a VP, Google sent a lobbyist. I believe you will be able to watch the archived hearings on CSpan once they've been posted.

      --
      jrjBlog
    2. Re:Questioning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The BIGGEST problem is that most people and corporations think it's OK to collect personal information and location data as long as "this can't be tied back to an individual person". That is NOT OK.

      Why is having data that can't be tied back to a single person not OK? Most of the arguments I've heard against collection of user data have to deal with individual users' privacy and possible abuses by the government for surveillance. If the data can't be tied back to a single person, I don't see a problem.

      In practice, though, a lot of data can be tied to a single person....

    3. Re:Questioning by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      At the risk of being redundant - I'll repost the same thing I posted above:

      TFS really isn't worth a lot, and TFA seems to be an ego-centric Apple article. But, people who keep up with the news already knew that there were going to be more people than Apple's shills testifying at that hearing. First Google hit on my set of search terms: http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/congress-hears-from-apple-and-google-on-privacy/?partner=rss&emc=rss [nytimes.com]

      You can use your own search terms - or, you can just read the news headlines from most of the major news outlets. It ain't about Apple. It's about citizen's right to privacy.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    4. Re:Questioning by EraserMouseMan · · Score: 0

      Naw. Just Apple. According to Steve Android is fragmented and it will just wither up and die. So no point in having Google show up. They're just as good as dead already. And Steve thinks the best Facebook user-experience is through Safari or the iPhone app. So, once again, no need to grill Facebook. Just grill Apple.

    5. Re:Questioning by samkass · · Score: 5, Informative

      Google also testified today.

      Apple sent an Engineering PhD VP to describe the measures they've taken to make sure the potential privacy violations don't happen again.

      Google sent a Congressional lobbyist to tell people how wonderful it is that Google can use your personal information to make better products.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    6. Re:Questioning by Salvo · · Score: 2

      Gowalla, Facebook, Twitter, Flickr, Foursquare, Latitude are all opt-in location tracking services. They may need to be dragged out over how easy it is to opt-in, but in the end, it's user choice. Users can refuse these Apps and Services access to the location APIs in iOS.

      Android, however would need to reassess their Quasi-Open, Wild-West-style Android Marketplace to combat User Privacy issues. Apps aren't sandboxed away from the Location APIs like in iOS, so Google have no control over whether a users location is being tracked or not. Malware could be installed on an Android that tracks location and the User wouldn't know. Google haven't even come out and stated that they aren't tracking devices.

      Apple's crowdsourced location data ends up in a big pool. The data can not only not "be tied back to an individual person", but also can't be tied back to a unique dataset either (which further degrades it's usefulness for data-mining).

    7. Re:Questioning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you should try RTFA. Then you can take a few minutes to see how to spin it to defend Apple and come back and make a comment that is not so obviously wrong. Hint, the end of the article quotes dialog between Google rep Alan Davidson and Senator Sheldon Whitehouse.

    8. Re:Questioning by EraserMouseMan · · Score: 1

      Thanks AC. Here's a hint for you: Please put the ear buds back in.

    9. Re:Questioning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately the Republicans will fight that tooth and nail, because privacy rights are politically entangled with abortion rights. The Dems will fight it tooth and nail because they are slaves to the kinds of high tech and entertainment corporations that are casually abrading what privacy we do have.

    10. Re:Questioning by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      They may need to be dragged out over how easy it is to opt-in

      And how hard it is to opt back out. Unless they've fixed it recently, if you tap on the "Check-in" button in the iPhone app just out of curiosity to see what it is and how it works, from then on, Facebook asks for permission to use your location every time you run the d**n app, whether you use the check-in feature or not. Can you say obnoxious? The only way I've found to fix it is to delete the Facebook app entirely and reinstall it.

      The bigger concern is that with an app like Facebook doing this at every launch instead of just when you use the check-in feature, the average user will become so conditioned to clicking "Allow" at this prompt that after a while, the privacy feature will lose all meaning.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    11. Re:Questioning by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Android, however would need to reassess their Quasi-Open, Wild-West-style Android Marketplace to combat User Privacy issues. Apps aren't sandboxed away from the Location APIs like in iOS, so Google have no control over whether a users location is being tracked or not. Malware could be installed on an Android that tracks location and the User wouldn't know. Google haven't even come out and stated that they aren't tracking devices.

      Attempting to access the Location API without having declared that you want that permission (and therefore the user being asked during installation) results in SecurityManager denying your request. Have you even looked at an Android device?

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    12. Re:Questioning by Altus · · Score: 2

      Is that true for apps that are side loaded onto an android device, or only ones that come from an app store (or only ones that come from googles app store)? Honest question, I don't have a Android device of my own to try it on.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    13. Re:Questioning by huzur79 · · Score: 2

      And besides Apple was not tracking data and sending it back to itself either. The tracking was local on the device and stayed local on the device to help the device operate better. BIG difference if it was actually being sent BACK to Apple. And it was not actually tracking a persons location but wifi and tower locations around a person which in itself gives a general location of where a person has been. This issue has been seriously blown out of proportion .

    14. Re:Questioning by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Cool. You can parrot John Gruber. That's an unbiased source.

      Or, we can just parrot you: An ANONYMOUS COWARD.

    15. Re:Questioning by immaterial · · Score: 1

      They may need to be dragged out over how easy it is to opt-in

      And how hard it is to opt back out. Unless they've fixed it recently, if you tap on the "Check-in" button in the iPhone app just out of curiosity to see what it is and how it works, from then on, Facebook asks for permission to use your location every time you run the d**n app, whether you use the check-in feature or not. Can you say obnoxious? The only way I've found to fix it is to delete the Facebook app entirely and reinstall it.

      I know it can be hard to find, here's a tip: Settings -> Location Services

    16. Re:Questioning by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      At least in iOS 3 (which is the last version my phone supports), it's Settings > General > Location Services, and the only choices are "on" or "off". So your choice is between an obnoxious nag every time you launch Facebook or having to manually reenable location services every time you want to use Google Maps.

      Either way, it does nothing to solve the problem that I was pointing out, which was that if apps ask for location services even when they don't really need location services (as is the case when you're using the other 99% of Facebook's functionality), then the nag message loses all meaning.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    17. Re:Questioning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it is out in the open who these people are and who they work for, is it really appropriate to call them shills?

    18. Re:Questioning by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Google also testified today.

      Apple sent an Engineering PhD VP to describe the measures they've taken to make sure the potential privacy violations don't happen again.

      Google sent a Congressional lobbyist to tell people how wonderful it is that Google can use your personal information to make better products.

      Google's services are opt-in. They sent a lawyer who could explain that to lawyers.

      Apple recorded this information behind peoples backs. They sent in a weasel to try and get out of it.

      Things sound so different from the truth when you put spin around it. The only people surprised about what Google are doing are the people who've never used Android therefore have never seen the opt in screen when you start the phone up and log in to Gmail (or not, if you so desire). Besides this, Google is using no UID's, Apple has been recording UID's.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    19. Re:Questioning by intheshelter · · Score: 2

      Could you be any more full of shit? Apple doesn't record the information on their servers dipwad. Apple records information about cell towers and wifi spots to help with aGPS performance.

      You've got to extract Google's penis out of your ass for a minute and you may be able to think a little clearer.

    20. Re:Questioning by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      All apps, even side loaded ones, invoke the permissions prompt when installing and enforce the assigned permissions. This would not, of course, be applicable to rooted phones unless the custom ROM also enforces this.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
  8. Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by crow_t_robot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Considering that the hearings about the economic collapse didn't result in any jail time or even any fines for the perpetrators, Tribble should just show up in flip-flops and a t-shirt while drunk and say "What's up, sluts? I hope this isn't going to take very long....yea, we violate privacy but considering you didn't do anything about Wall Street execs that literally raped this country out of trillions of dollars I'm sure as shit you are going to get off your fat asses for some lousy cellphone privacy issues! Peace out, bitches, catch you on the flippity flop!"

    1. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by geminidomino · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wall Street execs that literally raped this country out of trillions of dollars

      That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    2. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by tripleevenfall · · Score: 1

      That word also does not apply when the politicians who voted for those bills did it cheerfully and willingly.

    3. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by royallthefourth · · Score: 1

      Nah bro it's literary. The character "Tribble" is who you don't think knows what that word means.

    4. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by ae1294 · · Score: 1

      Wall Street execs that literally raped this country out of trillions of dollars

      That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      I'm not 100% sure but I think it fits in this case...

    5. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by sirhan · · Score: 1

      What it means when you say "literally"

      --

      It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.

    6. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LMAO!

    7. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by norminator · · Score: 1

      Maybe he understands that word, but not the next one.

    8. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dunno... my ass hurts alot when i think about the goverment.

    9. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wall Street execs that literally raped this country out of trillions of dollars

      That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      TFTFY
      (They didn't rape, but they literally did something.)

    10. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dunno... my ass hurts alot when i think about the goverment.

      May I suggest removing your head from your ass before thinking.

    11. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by purpledinoz · · Score: 1

      I love what Congress latches onto. Although this iPhone location file deal is a big deal, it seems to me that there are more important issues that should be discussed. Like maybe throwing the banksters who caused the financial crisis in jail. But at least it's more important than the hearings about steroids in baseball.

    12. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by Salvo · · Score: 2

      I'm not saying that any Senators could possibly be corrupt, but the banking industry can fund an awful lot of "Lobbyists".

      Apple could too, but by sending a Senior Engineer to rationally and logically explain how Apple are doing everything they can to protect user privacy, they are putting forward the idea that Commercial Interests and Customer Privacy can coexist.

      It's said the the iPhone is Apple's Product and the User is Apple's Customer, while Users are Google Product and Advertisers are Google's Customer. When the User can no longer be sold, Google's business model collapses.

      Maybe that is why Google followed the Banking Industry's lead and sent a Lobbyist

    13. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You realize that "rape" doesn't merely have a sexual definition, right?

    14. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by bb5ch39t · · Score: 1

      Perhaps "pillage" would be a more exact word.

    15. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by bennomatic · · Score: 1

      Actually, two of the definitions of 'rape' are correct for that statement. One is to plunder or despoil. The other is to seize or carry off by force. They are indeed archaic definitions and not in common use, but if we're going to be pedantic, let's do it right.

      Of course, there's a feedback loop on these sorts of definitions, amirite? One can also say, "John took Joan right then..." and in this case, "taking" clearly has a sexual--and likely forceful, although not necessarily non-consensual--meaning.

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    16. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by Bryan3000000 · · Score: 1

      I don't know, he just might. It would explain certain feelings I've been having. Shame, and a burning sensation.

    17. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by revscat · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, it does. From New Oxford American Dictionary:

      informal used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true : I have received literally thousands of letters.

    18. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. It has a LITERAL definition and a FIGURATIVE definition. Fucking cretin.

    19. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      The issue here is that Congress is in trouble if the banking industry collapses, therefore it is against their best interests to call for stiff penalties. However, if Apple collapses, they can just switch to Android phones, or Windows phones. No biggie. Apple realized this I'm sure, and so has shown that they're taking the issue seriously.

      However, Google appears to be attempting to spin it: "We're like the banks... if you pursue this, the smartphone industry will collapse. If you don't, you'll get all these great features from great companies."

    20. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by Altus · · Score: 1

      What makes you think that Apple needs location data in order to make their business model work? There is no evidence at all that their business model is based on selling user information, in fact, its based primarily on selling hardware (which is combined with integrated software to provide what should be a desirable end user experience). Google, on the other hand, makes their money from advertising and therefor demographic and location information is actually quite central to the way they make money.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    21. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by ph4cr · · Score: 1

      FUNNY!

    22. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Considering that the hearings about the economic collapse didn't result in any jail time or even any fines for the perpetrators, Tribble should just show up in flip-flops and a t-shirt while drunk and say "What's up, sluts? I hope this isn't going to take very long....yea, we violate privacy but considering you didn't do anything about Wall Street execs that literally raped this country out of trillions of dollars I'm sure as shit you are going to get off your fat asses for some lousy cellphone privacy issues! Peace out, bitches, catch you on the flippity flop!"

      +4 Insightful?!? Really? IN-SIGHT-FUL????

      Abandon ye all hope who post here!

    23. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by macs4all · · Score: 1

      I love what Congress latches onto. Although this iPhone location file deal is a big deal, it seems to me that there are more important issues that should be discussed. Like maybe throwing the banksters who caused the financial crisis in jail. But at least it's more important than the hearings about steroids in baseball.

      Boy, that ain't no shit!

    24. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by LordLucless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So "literal" now means "not literal". Now I'm just hanging out for "true" being an informal use of "false" so we can discard useful communication altogether. Reminds me why I speak English and not American.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    25. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wall Street execs that literally raped this country out of trillions of dollars

      That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      LOL

    26. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by N+Monkey · · Score: 1

      So "literal" now means "not literal". Now I'm just hanging out for "true" being an informal use of "false" so we can discard useful communication altogether. Reminds me why I speak English and not American.

      Well, I suppose it's a bit like those who say "I could care less" when they actually mean "I couldn't care less". Let's blame the education system ;-)

    27. Re:Just Like Hearings About The Economic Collapse by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Wall Street execs that literally raped this country out of trillions of dollars

      Actually, two of the definitions of 'rape' are correct for that statement. One is to plunder or despoil. The other is to seize or carry off by force. They are indeed archaic definitions and not in common use, but if we're going to be pedantic, let's do it right.

      Not quite. The money might have been "plundered" or "carried off by force," not the country. You'd need to swap the direct and indirect objects for those two definitions to fit properly.

      Nope. The guy's clearly just a tool who literally doesn't know what the word literally means (kind of like the dickhole who put it into the dictionary post mentioned in sibling subthread)

  9. while Apple deserves blame... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While Apple certainly deserves a lot of blame, so do all the people who purchased their products. It has been clear for ages that their model is one of lockdown and control. If you support that kind of thing financially, you bear some of the responsibility for the direction that our society seems to be going: erosion of personal ownership and transfer of control to multinational corporations.

    Your actions should reflect how you want the world to be. If you act opposite of that, in the end, you will get exactly what you deserve to get. Buy a machine that treats you as an enemy, and don't act surprised at the results.

    This goes for all kinds of things. We now have more and more single player games that require a network connection for permission to play **because people keep buying them**. As long as the next shiny-shiny is more important than how far you have to bend over, we will get what we deserve to get. No laws can ever change this, because laws are a trailing fix; they can't prevent the next form of abuse.

    1. Re:while Apple deserves blame... by tripleevenfall · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think it's a crime for someone to buy Apple products. Let the free markets be free. However, you understand going in that you're going to be locked in, in some ways - and if you don't, you still bear the weight of that choice because you didn't do your homework.

      That being said, it's simply a question of whether it's reasonable to expect that Apple users will move to any other service. No, they will likely not. As we see in practically every marketplace in IT, vendor-lock in is a powerful force.

    2. Re:while Apple deserves blame... by thetartanavenger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While Apple certainly deserves a lot of blame, so do all the people who purchased their products. It has been clear for ages that their model is one of lockdown and control. If you support that kind of thing financially, you bear some of the responsibility for the direction that our society seems to be going: erosion of personal ownership and transfer of control to multinational corporations.

      Those purchasing deserve blame for what exactly. Yes they lock down their devices, so what. Some people want that, others don't which is why we have competition and alternatives like Android. When Apple crossed a line with personal privacy people stood up and complained and it was resolved. Yes there should be more protections in place to prevent this kind of incident, but those purchasing clearly didn't like what happened and Apple was put in its place. If they didn't, /then/ go ahead and transfer the blame, but until then all the consumers have done is purchase a device in a safe ecosystem that they can't break. If you don't like the restrictions then don't buy it..

      --
      Who need's speling and grammar?
    3. Re:while Apple deserves blame... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a liberal so your thoughts and comments are meaningless. However, you should run for public office because you will be able to loot those who produce.

    4. Re:while Apple deserves blame... by Angostura · · Score: 1

      I'm all ears, in what way is the fact that Apple locally caches cellphone tower and WiFi location data on a device in anyway connected to its policy of operating a tightly curated app-store and locking down the device?

    5. Re:while Apple deserves blame... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How did this dickhead get modded as anything other than 'Troll'?

    6. Re:while Apple deserves blame... by Fahrvergnuugen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Locked into what, exactly?

      I keep hearing everyone throw out there that iOS locks you in, but I am failing to see how this is true. All of the content on my iPhone (besides the apps) will work on any device because they're JPGs, MP3s, M4As, etc. Apps aren't portable on any platform (besides Java, and I'm sorry, but there is no such thing as a good cross platform Java app).

      --
      Kiteboarding Gear Mention slashdot and get 10% off!
    7. Re:while Apple deserves blame... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I'm all ears, in what way is the fact that Apple locally caches cellphone tower and WiFi location data on a device in anyway connected to its policy of operating a tightly curated app-store and locking down the device?

      The device lockdown prevented even reading the file, let alone the usual workarounds like "touch foo; chmod 000 foo". Because you were not permitted control over your own device, you could do nothing about it.

    8. Re:while Apple deserves blame... by node+3 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, those people who are voluntarily choosing to buy products that best serve their needs. What assholes!

      Here's a clue: Apple doesn't invade your privacy, and they don't "lockdown and control" except in order to make their products more appealing and more powerful to more people. By voluntarily choosing Apple's products, consumers *are* taking an active stance in creating the world they want to see. It's just not the world *you* want to see. Who are you to dictate to them the world they should wish for?

      Apple isn't a government and they aren't a monopoly. They aren't the biggest, most profitable technology company in the world by force, but by the completely voluntary actions of the consumers.

    9. Re:while Apple deserves blame... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since it seems that you don't fully understand the issue at hand, can you clarify what Apple deserves blame for? They did not violate anyone's privacy or track user's locations. The phone did, to make the device faster at locating itself when the user asks it to.

      I do agree with part of what you are saying, which is exactly why I use a iPhone and not an Android device. I support the traditional business model of creating a good product and selling it, which is Apple's business model... to sell hardware and software. Google's business model is to sell people's information. When you use a Google product, YOU are the product that Google sells and thereby profits from. All of your personal information is what Google values.

      Using any of Google's services is, in fact, supporting privacy violation.

    10. Re:while Apple deserves blame... by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      Damn you for spouting truth!! AC was on a good ideological rant and you ruined it with common sense!!

    11. Re:while Apple deserves blame... by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      Well that's a stretch. Of course the converse is also true. The lock-down prevented someone from easily getting data from the phone because it would have to be jailbroken first. So really the lockdown turned out to be a good thing, didn't it?

  10. The Chewbacca defense by mrnick · · Score: 2

    Dammit! ... They are using the Chewbacca defense!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

    --

    Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
  11. Re:Means by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 2

    Yes it does.

    The Corps slid into our fiduciary trust and smoothly moved money in and out of our bank accounts, and becoming quite excited in the process. Then they embraced us and extended us more products. They nearly extinguished the economy.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  12. All Apple has to do ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ... is tell congress that they're baking features into the OS for what the DHS will want from them ...

  13. Trouble with Tribble by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1, Informative

    "Tribble said that Apple doesn’t track user location and has no plans to ever do so in the future."

    "Tribble acknowledged that the location data in question was not encrypted but that it will be in the next major iOS update."

    So the Apple device tracks and stores your location, but Apple the company does not. That's comforting.

    1. Re:Trouble with Tribble by rritterson · · Score: 3, Informative

      Apple PR failed to remove a lot of the misconceptions about the little location file on the device, so let me take a crack. The location information on the iPhone is not YOUR location, but rather a collection of location data points that includes the cell towers in the local vicinity, some of which could be up to 100 miles away. As a result, the phone is not storing your location, but instead just downloading a bit of cache data so it can look up your location faster when you want it to. That responds to the 'storing' part of your post. With respect to tracking, if you know a way for a navigation app to give you directions and locate you, but not track you, I'd like to hear it. In the meantime, if you would like the phone to NOT know where you are, period, just switch off 'location services', which, as of 4.2.3, also deletes the local cache database.

      Meanwhile, all sorts of information about your location is leaked by all the devices you use. One trivial example is your IP address, which, while not a precise locator, gives the other end some idea about where you are (assuming no proxies, etc etc)

      --
      -Ryan
      AUWYHSTOT (Acronyms are Useless When You Have to Spell Them Out Too)
    2. Re:Trouble with Tribble by UncleTogie · · Score: 1

      "Tribble said that Apple doesnâ(TM)t track user location and has no plans to ever do so in the future."

      ".... unless law enforcement agencies come a-calling, in which case you're screwed."

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    3. Re:Trouble with Tribble by h4rr4r · · Score: 1, Insightful

      . The location information on the iPhone is not YOUR location, but rather a collection of location data points that includes the cell towers in the local vicinity,

      English Translation: It stores your location, just not very accurately.

    4. Re:Trouble with Tribble by Salvo · · Score: 2

      The only way you have been track an iPhone is if the device is configured to use MS Exchange or MobileMe.

      The Device records location data (not your precise location), and uploads location data (without any unique identifiers), but doesn't track your location (unless you tell it too with Apps like Gowalla and Google Latitude).

      If Law Enforcement went to Apple and said "I want to know UncleTogie's movements for the last week", and you don't have MobileMe, Apple would have nothing to give them.
      They may however use Google Latitude, Gowalla, Foursquare to track you with Public information you posted on purpose, or use Cree.py to track you by Twitter or Flickr pictures. They could also contact your phone company and triangulate you via Cell Towers, as they did to Mitnick in 1995.

    5. Re:Trouble with Tribble by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If Law Enforcement went to Apple and said "I want to know UncleTogie's movements for the last week", and you don't have MobileMe, Apple would have nothing to give them."

      You don't know what you are talking about.

      Apple and AT&T would both be capable of giving precise location data for a phone. And yes, they can tell you
      who owns the phone. It is true that they only know where the phone has been, though. Which in your case
      would probably be a fixed point in your mother's basement.

    6. Re:Trouble with Tribble by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Hint: If law enforcement agencies want to know where your phone has been, they don't have to search for a list of approximate locations in your iPhone or its backup. All they do is ask your cell provider. That's why you should never carry your cell phone anywhere you don't want the police to know you've been, and that applies if you've got an iPhone, an Android, or the cheapo model that came free with the lowest-price contract.

      Really, guys, this is no big deal. Some of you do think there's nothing like a good Apple-bashing, and this is nothing like a good Apple-bashing.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    7. Re:Trouble with Tribble by gnasher719 · · Score: 3

      English Translation: It stores your location, just not very accurately.

      Mistranslation. It stores several locations all around the point where the phone was. Now if we ignore the fact that nobody can lay their hands on this data without stealing my phone or computer, in which case (1) my phone or computer is gone, and (2) there are things like email, address book, browser cache that I worry about a lot lot more, and if we ignore the fact that there is very little someone could do with _exact_ information where I have been, information that shows my location within half a mile is completely useless to anyone.

    8. Re:Trouble with Tribble by Altus · · Score: 2

      You know that firefox keeps copies of web sites you visit on your computer. They say its just so that they can load pages faster, but I know that all of that data is being secretly sent to the firefox cabal who are secretly selling that information to the highest bidder. I know because I read about it all on slashdot.

      Caches like this are common and for good reason. Sure, it would be better if the file was always encrypted and it would be better if it was trimmed down to only a couple of days worth of data, but all that takes developer time and since this file isn't accessible on phones that have not had their warranty voided I'm sure the developer in question didn't even consider this a problem.

      But sure, its much more fun to imagine that there is some kind of grand conspiracy at apple that goes beyond selling a bunch of fucking iPhones and making boat loads of money doing it.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    9. Re:Trouble with Tribble by Altus · · Score: 1

      Of course, law enforcement would actually go to your wireless provider and ask them for the information and they actually have access to that information and will be more than happy to provide it.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    10. Re:Trouble with Tribble by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      "You know that firefox keeps copies of web sites you visit on your computer."

      Unless you are browsing in privacy mode. Apart from that, it is a matter of trust. On one hand you have a mature, widely used open source project maintained by many developers and access to the source code. On the other you have the secretive profit driven control freakery of Apple and the closed iDevices that inhabit its walled garden.

      --
      Sent from my iTracker

    11. Re:Trouble with Tribble by Angostura · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know what, the hard disk in this PC I'm using records *every piece* of personal data that I produce on it, documents, spreadsheets - the lot. It even records some passwords. That's bad right? As far as I know, the data isn't being sent to HP, but do you think I should format the drive every day?

    12. Re:Trouble with Tribble by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      ...do you think I should format the drive every day?

      It's worth a shot, let me know how it works out.

    13. Re:Trouble with Tribble by SJ · · Score: 1

      ...for varying values of "accurately"...

      I know the exact location of every person in North America.

      North America.

    14. Re:Trouble with Tribble by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      You know, you never actually see what happens to your Latitude check-ins after you make them, where they go, how they're warehoused, how they're indexed and searched, what particular parties at Google have access to what data. It's not like Google opens the server code for its location services, the app store, docs, search, gmail... Google's operation is very much a "secretive profit driven control freakery" when it comes to their back-end. So pick your poison.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    15. Re:Trouble with Tribble by j+h+woodyatt · · Score: 1

      Hell, your wireless provider has almost certainly set up a special backdoor for them to get this information about anyone they want without even having to write a letter or speak to a human being. It's a pain in the ass to read and respond to all those letters. It's a pain in the ass to have to write them. Everyone is happier when the cops just log into the LE portal and take whatever data they want.

      Everyone loves cops, and everybody wants to help them fight crime and stuff! You love the cops, don't you? Of course, you do. Now, shut up and go back to whining about the fact your location services cache got backed up in the clear to your personal computer.

      --
      jhw
    16. Re:Trouble with Tribble by ikeman32 · · Score: 1

      Well we could always beam Tribble onto a Klingon vessel. Klingons and Tribbles don't get along. *Cue the lame joke sound byte.*

    17. Re:Trouble with Tribble by Caetel · · Score: 1

      A collection of location data points that includes cell towers and WiFi access points, which generally have a range of less than 100 feet. In areas with higher population densities, there are usually multiple cell towers per square mile, which makes it incredibly misleading to drop the 100 mile figure.

  14. Re:Means by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That description is literally figurative.

  15. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As someone said in another forum about the same trial: Put these in the order you trust, Apple, Google, US Congress...

    I'd add the Department of Homeland Security to that list too... Somehow I trust Apple and Google a bit more than those two. At least I can sell my iPhone if I think this is really an issue. In the mean time, Please go back to trying to come up with a way to not overspend spending my tax money.

  16. Star Trek by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trouble with Tribbles?

  17. Solution by return+42 · · Score: 1

    Earlier today, Apple's VP of software technology, Guy L. 'Bud' Tribble...

    Beam him into the Klingons' engine room, Scotty...

  18. Apple AND Google Discuss Privacy Before Congress by Cogneato · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is there any chance at all that Slashdot might make a tiny amount of effort to report about Apple and Google in the same tone when they are sitting side by side talking about essentially the exact same stuff?

    When you present a story like this in such an slanted way, it begins to reek of the technics used by right-wing radio hosts about stuff they consider liberal. There are plenty of legitimate things to criticize Apple for, that you don't have to reconstruct reality to create new ones.

  19. Please dont mod "funny" comments as something else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Some of us don't want to read "Funny" comments and set up our profile to mod them down. If you erroneously mod a "funny" comment as something else, even with the good intention of protecting someones karma, you are damaging the experience of other slashdot users. Thank you.

  20. Congress== bunch of hypocrites by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

    Congress: do as we say, not as we do (via FISA, HS, TSA, etc)

    --
    Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
  21. Re:Apple AND Google Discuss Privacy Before Congres by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This IS the limited "other side". Slashdot generally bows before the White Plastic Altar (formerly the Brushed Steel Altar, formerly the Bright Fruit-Colored Plastic Altar) of the Almighty Steve in most of their stories. Blow-by-blow reports of ADC? Rumor after rumor after rumor after rumor made front-page news? An excited article on Apple releasing a WHOLE SECOND GODDAMNED COLOR OF IPHONE?? Remind me again where the slanted reporting is.

    All Apple needs to do is release a brushed steel iPhone, call it an Anniversary Edition, ignore any and all reception issues derived from a brushed steel case, and Slashdot will forget this entire "blatant privacy violation" thing eeeeeeeeeeever happened, at least as far as Apple is concerned.

  22. Re:Apple AND Google Discuss Privacy Before Congres by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hi Cogneato-
    I can tell that you're new here so I just wanted to welcome you to Slashdot. So you're up to speed fuck Oracle, Sony, Apple, Microsoft, SCO. We give Google and Linux handjobs though. Enjoy your stay and remember to wash your hands afterwards.

  23. Re:Apple AND Google Discuss Privacy Before Congres by rsborg · · Score: 2

    Is there any chance at all that Slashdot might make a tiny amount of effort to report about Apple and Google in the same tone when they are sitting side by side talking about essentially the exact same stuff?

    Apple sent a VP of software tech and Google sent a lobbyist. If I'm going to listen to a lobbyist, they better be paying me money.

    --
    Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
  24. Cell phone or unknown location. Choose one. by Gorimek · · Score: 1

    Any cell phone that displays your location needs to track and store it in some form.

    Smart phones aside, one of the main purposes of a cell phone is to constantly transmit it's location to the cell phone network, which stores it.

    1. Re:Cell phone or unknown location. Choose one. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any cell phone that displays your location needs to track and store it in some form.

      How so? My Garmin GPS does not store its location unless I specifically turn on that feature. Otherwise it just shows the current position only. There is NO NEED to store any location data, especially given that modern GPS chipsets can reacquire a warm position (within 100 miles of last position) in a matter of a second.

      If you go to a new location, query the new tower you've connected to, get its position from the network, then use that to warm-start your GPS. It's how my ancient HTC Touch Pro 2 does it... No need for a cache at all.

  25. Re:Apple AND Google Discuss Privacy Before Congres by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It was because Apple and Google did not act identically. Apple's offense was considerably worse.

  26. And Google! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is this just about Apple, when both Apple and Google were there? The difference being, Apple sent a VP of software development, and Google sent a lobbyist. Apple has already fixed there mess and never collected the data. Google collects the data and profits from it. I know, I know, this is /. therefore Apple is Evil.

  27. Get Christy Love? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whutevahappentoer?

  28. Its 8 PM, do you know where your data is at? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple tracking my whereabouts is nothing compared to Bank of America using IT support staff in a foreign country or Multinationals that share identification and financial information with subsidiaries all over the world. Apple is far less likely to destroy my financial well being by tracking me, but lets drag then through the mud because they don't give enough campaign contributions to get a free ride.

  29. Re:Means by Tharsman · · Score: 1

    That is figurative, not literal.

  30. Re:Apple AND Google Discuss Privacy Before Congres by tyrione · · Score: 1

    Is there any chance at all that Slashdot might make a tiny amount of effort to report about Apple and Google in the same tone when they are sitting side by side talking about essentially the exact same stuff?

    Apple sent a VP of software tech and Google sent a lobbyist. If I'm going to listen to a lobbyist, they better be paying me money.

    Apple sent Bud, one of the founding engineers from Apple and later NeXT, now back at Apple to talk about technology and how it actually works. Google sent a Lawyer.

  31. Policy Theory Resulting From Hearings? by Bob9113 · · Score: 1

    An open request to United States legislators:

    You are holding hearings on matters of information science. These matters may be reflected in information policy going forward. Could you please take the time to publish some information policy theory papers which outline your findings and present your hypotheses about how government, corporations, and the public should interact to best serve the sovereign(*) of the nation?

    Information science is a very new field. The public should be encouraged and empowered to consider and discuss the direction of the legislative theory that relates to this critical and novel sector of our economy.

    * sovereign == We The People

    --
    Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
  32. Re:Apple AND Google Discuss Privacy Before Congres by mjwx · · Score: 0

    Apple sent a VP of software tech and Google sent a lobbyist.

    So you've proven the GGP right, you cant discuss this objectively.

    Also remember that Google's actions were opt-in, twice, once when you first sign on to Gmail, the second every time you turn on location services, so their issue is legal (send a lawyer).

    Apple kept a database of user movements without informing the user of anything let alone giving them the option to not do it. So their issue is also legal (and they sent an engineer to try and convince lawyers otherwise).

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  33. Rome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the circus. Where's the bread?

  34. The trouble with Tribbles is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...

  35. Re:Apple AND Google Discuss Privacy Before Congres by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google sent a lawyer to discuss legal issues. How dare they.

    Apple sent an engineer to discuss... legal... issues... Way to go!

    (Nobody really believes that Tribble was going to explain how it works in the questioning rounds, right? Nobody thinks that the Senate staff hadn't already met with technical experts to figure out what was going on, right? Also, technically, Davidson isn't a lobbyist. Lobbyists are external people you hire to lobby on your behalf. Davidson is internal to Google, and thus categorically not a lobbyist. He's what gets called Government Relations at a lot of other corporations. He's also an MIT grad, so it's just barely possible he might understand technology too.)