Amazon Removes Yaoi Manga Titles From Kindle Store

Repossessed writes "Amazon is now cracking down on Yaoi manga, with several titles that have been available on the Kindle since 2009 being delisted and others now being rejected, according to Digital Manga Publisher. DMP has also stated that Amazon has not given any rationale for the rejections and removals, and Amazon has not been answering emails or phone calls from journalists asking about the subject."

Comments

alternatives to Amazon

[Black Parrot]

Can't say I'll miss porn written for schoolgirls, but in general Amazon has been adopting such a manipulative corporate mindset that I have to hold my nose to use them anymore. Where do people go when they give up Amazon?

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[betterunixthanunix]

Where do people go when they give up Amazon?

Back to paper books? I can think of half a dozen independent book stores within walking distance of my home, and I am in a medium sized town.

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[davester666]

iTunes. And Walmart.

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[Anonymous Coward]

Then your medium-sized town is an exception.

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[SuricouRaven]

"Can't say I'll miss porn written for schoolgirls,"

Maybe they'll ban Twilight next.

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[Andy Smith]

"Where do people go when they give up Amazon?"

A bookshop?

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[tverbeek]

"Can't say I'll miss porn written for schoolgirls..."

But that's just where it starts.* I don't want to misapply Martin Niemöller's "first they came for the Jews...." quote here, because he was talking about something even worse than censorship, but the principle is the same. If you wait until they get around to affecting you directly, that's way too late. Regardless of what one thinks of these graphic novels (which are the male/male equivalent of disposable paperback romance novels), it should be alarming that the world's largest book seller is removing them from the world's largest e-bookstore. If you have any "guilty pleasures" at all in your entertainment choices (gross-out movies, violent action films, slasher videos, "edgy" comedians, any variety of porn), keep in mind that there are people who want to suppress those too. So it should be important to you – personally – to stop them long before they get there.

*Actually it started (as far as I've heard) with erotic novels that contained the word "rape" in the title. Amazon's been quietly disappearing books from the Kindle store for a while now.

"Where do people go when they give up Amazon?"

Barnes and Noble would be the closest equivalent, both in terms of online dead-tree retailing and a good ebook/reader system. I haven't heard of them pulling books from that system based on someone disapproving of the content. At least not yet.

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[tenco]

"Can't say I'll miss porn written for schoolgirls,"

Maybe they'll ban Twilight next.

I hope so.

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[Kizeh]

I live in a pretty large town with several colleges, and know of zero independent new book stores, and one used one. Borders closed all their stores in town, but there's a B&N and Books a Million left, but it's really hard to find books I like in either. Bottom line is, I don't really have an alternative to Amazon for the books I buy.

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[Opportunist]

Was that necessary? Now I'm torn between hope and my firm belief in free speech.

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[Ephemeriis]

Where do people go when they give up Amazon?

Back to paper books? I can think of half a dozen independent book stores within walking distance of my home, and I am in a medium sized town.

You've either got a different definition of "medium sized town" than I do... Or you've very lucky.

I also live in what I'd call a "medium sized town"... Biggish for a town, but absolutely nothing you could call a city. We have a Borders, and a used bookstore downtown.

Borders is becoming less and less of a book store every day. They've got more movies and music and calendars and coffee in there than books already. And the books they do have are a lousy selection. I don't remember the last time I went in there looking for a book that wasn't on a current best seller list and actually found it.

Yes, if the stars align just right, you can find some awesome stuff at the used bookstore... But more often than not they've just got used copies of the same stuff that Borders is carrying. Cheaper, sure, but I don't want to read it anyway.

There's a library of course... And they're terrific for some of the older/classic stuff... And reference materials... But they don't generally have newer stuff available. Either they don't have a copy, or the one copy is perpetually loaned out to someone.

All of which means that I do most of my book shopping on-line.

I bought a nook largely because I am impatient. I can buy a book on-line and have it download to my nook within a minute or two. And I can even make purchases through the nook itself, so I don't need to be sitting in front of a computer. Makes it much easier to get my hands on decent reading material. Almost makes it seem like I'm not living in the ass-end of nowhere.

Now, I went with a nook at least in part because of the crap that Amazon has been doing with their Kindle. So I am unaffected by Amazon's decisions right now. But there are a lot of folks out there with Kindles who are affected by these decisions. Who were using Amazon and the Kindle to gain access to reading material that just isn't available in their local area. Especially if we're talking about erotica and/or pornography. It's virtually impossible to find a good selection of erotica/pornography outside of a large city.

Alright... So you're going to go back to paper books purchased from any one of a half-dozen independant book stores within walking distance of your home in a medium sized town...

So, where do the rest of us go?

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[Ephemeriis]

Can't say I'll miss porn written for schoolgirls

Yaoi is actually a very broad term used to categorize just about any kind of homoerotic media (anime, manga, games, whatever) written by women, for women. So the whole "porn for schoolgirls" thing is a bit off-target.

And, unless you are a schoolgirl, I wouldn't expect you to miss it much.

But if you are a schoolgirl you just lost a safe way to explore your sexuality. Now you're being told, like so many other people, that you kink is not OK. That the things that interest you are not fit for mainstream consumption. That they need to be hidden away behind counters and curtains and closed doors. That you should be ashamed of your interests.

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[Xyrus]

Libraries. Libraries and librarians have been fighting the good fight against censorship and banning books for a long time. And it's free.

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[rubycodez]

bullshit, this isn't about government action, a private company can choose to sell or not sell any kind of books it wants. If I had a book store, I wouldn't be selling certain kinds of material either just because I don't want to have to look at it, not out of any kind of fear or hatred for anyone. If you wanted to watch "Faces of Death - Babies vs. Whirling Blades Edition" you wouldn't be buying it from me.

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[Daniel Dvorkin]

By using DRM to create a state enforced enforced monopoly, this becomes a very big deal.

This is an important point, and one that has to be made over and over again, about all sorts of corporate misbehavior. "It's a private compnay, they can do whatever they want" falls apart pretty fast when you consider that corporations are, in fact, a creation of the government, and that large corporations in particular take advantage of every legal twist they can think of the get their way (and when they can't find the obscure, badly written, or outright evil law they're looking for, if they're a big enough company they can very often buy a new law custom-tailored to their needs.) A company the size of Amazon is effectively an agency of the government of the country in which it is incorporated, in this case the US.

Private corporations don't have the right to do whatever they want, because corporations don't have any rights at all; people do. We, the people, ordain and establish the laws under which corporations operate, and if they act in a way contrary to the people's interest, then we can use those laws to make them stop. Or at least that's how it would work in any sane world.

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[Repossessed]

This is of little use to the publisher and writer, who just lost half their sales for the censored titles. Keep in mind Amazon is a massive powerhouse in the book publishing world, so much that they even muscled publishers into signing contracts where the publisher could never allow another retailer to sell any ebook for less than what Amazon charges.

And today there are alternatives yes, but the ebook is here, and its growing fast. Here's the thing, many books aren't sold like normal items, they're sold like magazines. And like Magazines, after a certain period (usually either 90 or 120 days for mass market paperbacks) if the book hasn't sold the book seller can destroy the book and return the cover for a refund. This is horrificly expensive for the publisher when things go a certain way (IE, books being destroyed in one part of the world but selling out in another). So the people in the industry have basically said that once ebooks are dominate (and this will happen soon) the mass market paperback (the business model I described, not paperback the physical object) goes bye bye in favor of ebooks where there's no printing cost to lose when books don't sell well in one part of the country but do sell well in another.

There is another business model for physical books, where the book has to be returned, but anything that's high risk for the bookstore because of shipping costs, (and Amazon isn't going to censor best sellers). So the only things Amazon is going to censor will only be available in ebook format within ~10 years. In terms of my motivation for going after Amazon for this, (the long term fear that they'll score a monopoly that will enable them to outright ban anything LBGT as they attempted to do two years ago, with no fear of backlash from customers who can't buy anywhere else) today's alternatives aren't much use.

There's also the concern that ebooks are expected to be critical to generating best selling authors as time goes on, in the past books that could have gone best seller would fail to do so because they sold out rapidly and there was a delay in reprinting which prevented the book from making the all important extended best seller lists (which in turn generate the kind of sales that push books from authors nobody has heard of to the top of the list), so even if the mass market paperback exists, writing about a subject that's locked out of the ebook market will make an author poison to publishers (book publishing is high risk as hell, 9 out of 10 books by new authors lose money, without the even the slim possibility of becoming a best seller its hard to justify investing in a new writer, because the other 1 in 10 just don't make those kinds of profits).

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[tverbeek]

"From what I remember, there were few people on /. who cried foul when Apple pulled several Christian apps that were offensive to the gay community."

I was one of them, however. I'm a member of the gay community, I was offended by them, and I criticized Apple for removing them.

"Amazon is not a government actor here, so this is not censorship."

Any entity with enough power can engage in censorship. A sufficiently powerful religious organization can do it (the Vatican officially appoints "censors"), and a sufficiently powerful business can do it. For example, in the US, magazine distributors did it to comics by refusing to carry anything that didn't contain a Comics Code Authority seal. Saying "that's not censorship, that's just business" is most charitably described as "naïve".

Re:alternatives to Amazon

[Ol Olsoc]

That is indeed where it starts. Electronic bookery has some other interesting features as well. After being digitized, it's tempting, quick and easy to clean up "offensive" books. Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn might get a little touch up. From there who knows just how much change can be made depending on the motivation for the change. A physical book is a lot bigger effort to modify than a tex tfile of PDF. Over the course of a hundred years or so, literature might end up like the old game where people whisper in each other's ears a prepared sentence, then after ten iterations you end up with something completely different.

Couldn't you define it in the summary?

[artor3]

Do you really think everyone knows what Yaoi manga is?

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary?

[Rakshasa Taisab]

And remove the joy of discovery when you google the term? Why for...

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary?

[pieisgood]

That's why there is a link to the wikipedia article in the summary. So you can find out.

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary?

[Black Parrot]

That's why there is a link to the wikipedia article in the summary. So you can find out.

So now we're expected to RTFWL too, huh?

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you're reading a website. Complaining about not knowing something, where the term is linked plainly and clearly to free website that plainly defines the term.

And instead you logged in, took the effort and time to write a short complaint, and posted it, instead of clicking on that link? Holy. Hell.

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary?

[Kenja]

Has to be linked at some point I guess.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/4/11/

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary?

[SCPRedMage]

Jon Stewart wants his joke back.

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary?

[Homburg]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure everyone who reads Slashdot knows what yaoi is. "News for Nerds" pretty much implies "News for people who know a little bit too much about Japanese kink."

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary?

[tverbeek]

OK, yes, the submitter should have explained the term. (Too bad you don't have an internet connection that you could use to look it up.)

"Manga" is the Japanese word for "comics". In English usage, it means "comics from japan", which are usually sold as 200-ish-page graphic novels.

"Yaoi" is a vaguely defined term coined from a Japanese phrase, referring to manga written about romanticized male/male relationships. They are written and drawn mostly by women, and read mostly by women, though some gay men enjoy them too. Some yaoi manga are sexually explicit, but usually softcore in nature rather than hardcore. (Japanese culture shies away from drawing cocks.) Quite a few of them are tame enough to be sold to minors in the US: kissing, hand-holding, intense hugging, etc. The characters in them are often young (as is typical in coming-of-age stories), and in some cases are below the age of consent in many parts of the US. But since A) they aren't real people, and B) the drawings aren't usually pornographic per se, it would terribly inaccurate to call it "child porn".

Re:Couldn't you define it in the summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks and sounds like animated child porn. Which is what it is, to most non-Japanese cultures.

There is a whole problem with the importation of one culture's erotica into another for which there is no agreed answer. Japanese adult hetero porn has as a dominant theme, the sexual assault of at least one woman, that is intended to look non-consensual. In many European cultures (including my own) the depiction of rape as erotic is considered to be hugely offensive and therefore often it is censored.

Looked at from an extreme libertarian perspective, the criminalization of child pornography is supposed to be worse than the production and dissemination of the material itself.

Does Amazon have a right to not disseminate or publish any material that it finds offensive? Yes
Does Amazon look like it's censoring one type of porn while continuing to sell many other types and genres? Yes
Is Amazon more hypocritical than the rest of us? Heck no. We're just as hypocritical, but we don't have the stock holdings that Jeff Bezos has.

This is a collision of cultural norms that is happening all around the world, and there is no reason to assume that it will not continue.

Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[rolfwind]

This was always the paradox of ebooks. By every measure, ebooks should have the first thing that easily came to the computer. Files sizes were small and text was one of the first things reasonably conquered by computers. In the early days, sound cards were necessary to play music, video files were just goddamned intensive.... and yet as a medium, books came last after everything else.

Now, we're stuck with Amazon/Apple being the central distributors, they're start going to decide more and more on content for whatever reason. At least music players, you can load it up as an mp3 file and there are several music stores online to choose from. Even Apple managed to talk RIAA out of DRM. But publishers are going to be signing their own death warrant, building up their masters for the immediate (and false) security of DRM.

I love things in a digital format. But I really, really hate how the distribution model is playing out. This is the eBay model. One central place, it's convenient in some ways, but you play by their rules or you don't play at all, and if they decide to fuck you, they really fuck you.

We need to get away from the eBay model from these greedy ass companies, or it's going to be a damned bleak and bland future. We need to move over to the google shopping model, decentralized and seperate stores/vendor offering their wares connected by an neutraol aggregator (which lets people review service) and a whitelist for the cautious type.

I'm getting really sick of the direction these gadgets are heading.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[zmughal]

yet as a medium, books came last after everything else.

No, they didn't. Text files were always readily available on different networks. It's just that the general public would rather get a dead tree copy than use up paper on printing them out or read them sitting in front the computer screen. What we see now is a less tech-savvy public that would rather pull all their media from central distributors anyway, because they are ignorant of the alternatives. This is why DRM is being thrust upon us without a mass uproar.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[MimeticLie]

It's really only an issue for the Kindle folks right now. Other readers (Nook, Kobo, ect) can use EPUB files, available from many different sources. If Amazon starts driving smaller stores out of business or the other stores start censoring as well, then it might be cause for concern. As it is, you can still find Yaoi from Barnes and Noble:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/King-of-Debt/Sanae-Rokuya/e/2940012508836/?itm=1&USRI=king+of+debt

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[gmhowell]

What we see now is a less tech-savvy public that would rather pull all their media from central distributors anyway, because they are ignorant of the alternatives. This is why DRM is being thrust upon us without a mass uproar.

Why do nerds always seem to not understand that people might not be ignorant: they might be apathetic. The theoretical losses due to DRM are outweighed by the perceived benefits. Here's a hint: indifference curve. Yours is not mine.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[Trogre]

I realise your point is most likely about books under copyright restrictions, but thought I should point out that Project Gutenberg has been in operation since 1971.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[SuricouRaven]

Can't be done. DRM is propritary by it's very nature. It can't possibly be open, otherwise people could simply modify it to ignore the DRM flags and export unencrypted. Open DRM is a contradiction in terms. Making it not dependant on the continued presence of a server to function is doable though.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[molnarcs]

Well, informing the public is a start. Buy Kindle, buy books for Amazon, and be forever dependent on Amazon's gadgets to access the books you purchased for almost the same price as the dead tree versions! I'm a big fan of eBook readers - I hate reading on a backlit LCD. When I was shopping for an eBook reader, I carefully considered all options, and ended up with... WAIT FOR IT... SONY - yeah, that's right. No DRM on their online bookstore, and it reads everything you throw at it - PDF, .epub, text, even MS Word files. Fully supported by the FLOSS Calibre book management software... Comes with SD card slot, replaceable battery, touch screen and the FULL Oxford Dictionary (both AmE and BrE). After using it for some time, I wrote a short review, and explained in details why Kindle is a bad idea. I also happened to recommend piracy, for an entirely different reason (not that my review is intended to Vietnamese students and complete noobs).

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[jbolden]

You can buy kindle format books from multiple publishers. For example http://www.adultebookshop.com/ carries stuff that Amazon won't and Kindle is their preferred format.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[RonTheHurler]

This is clearly a form of censorship, but it's not an illegal one. Amazon has a right to choose what they carry in their stores, just as any other store does.

There is a worse form of censorship happening in our schools that very few people seem to be aware of. I discovered this when my daughters collaborated to write a book. They are in first and third grade, and when the box of newly printed books arrived, they proudly tried to donate several copies to the school library. The school rejected them.

It was not because of content. The librarian and some teachers all read the book and thought it was fine, and a great example of accomplishment for the other kids. It was not because of price -- we were donating the books. The problem is, the school district only allows books from a specific set of publishers, and since this book was self-published, it could not be allowed in the school. I inquired about the publishers, and there were only three on the list (Scholastic being one, and I'm sorry don't recall the other two.)

Essentially, the schools don't have to censor anymore, they have outsourced that function to a few trusted publishers. In our case, this is a district-wide policy, other districts might be different.

I have a busy life and didn't have the time to become an activist for open libraries in the schools (but I truly wish I could). Instead, I managed to get the kids' book on Amazon and B&N (although not in an e-book format -- It's a picture book that doesn't migrate well to those devices.)

Regarding Kindles, distributors and censorship - the device is not totally dependent on the e-store. I have versions of my daughters' book on my own kindle and in Ibooks too. The formats for publishing on those devices is pretty well known (epub. mobi, pdf, etc.) Distribution is the problem, but only for the technically challenged who can't be bothered to manually transfer the title onto their device - even when it's as simple as sending an email (a service Amazon provides for their Kindles -- it's a slightly bigger challenge for iBooks, but only slightly. I don't have a Nook...)

But I can't hack into my kids' library so easily -- other than to provide books at home for them too. Is there a better solution to this problem? Ultimately, I don't think so. Does anyone have a different opinion?

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[Ephemeriis]

It's really only an issue for the Kindle folks right now. Other readers (Nook, Kobo, ect) can use EPUB files, available from many different sources. If Amazon starts driving smaller stores out of business or the other stores start censoring as well, then it might be cause for concern. As it is, you can still find Yaoi from Barnes and Noble:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/King-of-Debt/Sanae-Rokuya/e/2940012508836/?itm=1&USRI=king+of+debt

This is why I purchased a nook, instead of a Kindle.

Well, not this specifically... I'm not a big fan of yaoi...

But, thus far, B&N has not been pulling the same kind of crap that Amazon has. They haven't been pulling questionable titles and deleting books off of ereaders. And even if they did, I can buy my books somewhere else as an EPUB or a PDF.

Part of that I attribute to the fact that B&N is an actual bookstore, while Amazon is just a generic online retailer. You won't be buying a new computer from B&N. And, while they do stock music and movies... The selection of books absolutely dwarfs the selection of music and movies. Real bookstores are generally opposed to censorship. They're generally opposed to banning and burning books.

Amazon, on the other hand, is the on-line equivalent of Wal-Mart.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[futuresheep]

Barnes and Noble has a publishing program and a Color Reader that would be perfect for your kids book.

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[WuphonsReach]

This was always the paradox of ebooks. By every measure, ebooks should have the first thing that easily came to the computer. Files sizes were small and text was one of the first things reasonably conquered by computers. In the early days, sound cards were necessary to play music, video files were just goddamned intensive.... and yet as a medium, books came last after everything else.

Personally, I lay that at the feet of device design.

A paper book, requires no batteries, works in a wide range of light conditions, can be traded / loaned without technical issues (other then language), easy random access and bookmarking / highlighting / notes in the margin, etc.

Other things like music & movies/TV always required technology in some shape or form unless it was a live performance. They are also passive (watching a movie / TV show) or background activities (as music often is).

So for electronic books to take off, you need a device that is easy to use, easy to read, and has most of the same advantages as a dead-tree book. It turned out that cell phone / smart phone / Palm screens were too small or too expensive for most people. Not many people like to have a laptop in their lap or sit at a desk to read for long periods either. Very few electronic screens (other then pure B&W crystal LCDs from the 90s) were readable in bright sunlight. Or the devices that were designed as book readers were priced over $500 which is too expensive for most.

I picked up a Sony eReader about 3 years ago and immediately fell in love with it for fiction/leisure reading (cover-to-cover, very little random access). And device prices have dropped drastically since then which helps with mass market uptake. Now we just have to wait for the format wars to settle out and for a format to come to the foreground like MP3 did for audio. That probably be ePub which is the most open of the formats.

(Baen has been a good corporate citizen in all this. Decent prices, no DRM, and a variety of formats.)

Re:Don't let One Distributor Control eBooks!

[radish]

That's certainly not the case nationwide. My wife is an elementary school librarian and I just asked her about this - she said that getting self published books in can sometimes be controversial as they have a mandate that all books must support the curriculum, and many self published books are of little academic value. That said, she said they can and do purchase them, and they have a number of self published books like yours from fellow students in the collection (which, incidentally, are very popular with the readers). Sounds like some kind of deal the county or district made with publishers, which sucks (and maybe should be questioned?) - my wife was pretty amazed that such a deal would exist. They do have preferred suppliers, as they offer the correct bindings/metadata services/tags etc and bulk pricing, but she can order anything from anywhere she wants.

Meanwhile still availible:

[Anonymous Coward]

Meanwhile still availible:

"Titles currently available on Kindle include Christmas Creampie, a graphic novel in which “horny Whoreville hussies show a frustrated dildo shop owner the true meaning of Christmas,” and Little Lorna in Resort Sports (I’m not even going to link to this one), in which Little Lorna, who is spunky, sexy, but “not too bright,” goes on vacation to Mexico with her Uncle Bob; “nudity, spanking, and sexy humor” result.
So apparently a sweet love story between two men is unacceptable, but an orgy in a dildo shop is OK."

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2011/05/too-hot-for-kindle-amazon-pulls-yaoi-from-kindle-store/

Re:Meanwhile still availible:

[jhoegl]

How deep did you go to find this?

Re:Meanwhile still availible:

[Issarlk]

look at the cover of this manga and tell us they are kids:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/King-of-Debt/Sanae-Rokuya/e/2940012508836/?itm=1&USRI=king+of+debt

Re:Meanwhile still availible:

[Anonymous Coward]

King of Debt (Yaoi Manga) - Nook Edition
 

Taketora, The King of Debt, is notorious for borrowing money - money that he never pays back. He and Souta have been friends since college, and Souta just can't bring himself to cut off his freeloading friend. But when Souta suddenly loses his job, the only one he can turn to is The King of Debt himself. only the pieces of Taketora don't quite add up. It turns out he lives in a luxury apartment complex, drives and exotic car, and wears designer suits?! So why is he borrowing money from Souta, and why is he so intent on paying back his debt with his body?

Did you seriously believe this is the life of a children? And by the way child pornography is about prepubescent children, not just anyone under 20 or what ever arbitrary age your sick moral values dictate. I like when obvious troll get modded up... fun fun fun.

Amazon != bookstore

[oheso]

They have consistently shown they're in the money biz, and don't give a fig about art or freedom of speech.

Re:Amazon != bookstore

[Anonymous Coward]

If they were just in the "money" business, this content would just be another set of SKUs in their inventory. The problem, if what is being alleged is true, is that they are in the "ideology" business.

Re:Amazon != bookstore

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't sell something because it doesn't generate you money, it is called business sense.

If you don't sell something because you don't like it, that's ideology. (Especially if it would generate you money.)

Re:Amazon != bookstore

[LordLucless]

I never realised the purpose of a bookstore was to depend freedom of speech. I thought it was to sell books.

Not that defending freedom of speech isn't a good thing, but it's not really an essential part of the definition of a bookstore.

Re:Amazon != bookstore

[Teun]

But through the centuries books and other printed material have more often than not been the centre-piece of the fight for freedom of speech, a well documented example was the Gulag Archipelago, a book by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.

What you seem to forget is that most languages and cultures rather talk about freedom of information.

Re:Amazon != bookstore

[tnk1]

If the government is using state power to censor things, I could agree with you. However, if you are talking about telling a private enterprise what it can and cannot sell, then no, that is not required of anyone.

Presumably, there is a market for these types of content. If there is, there will be an online store that picks right up where Amazon left off. If anything, Amazon has just lined the pockets of people who are more committed to providing this sort of content.

I'm sorry, but while I want to maintain freedom from government censorship, I'm not going to be protesting that certain types of literature, which I have no interest in, don't have a distribution channel. That's their problem, not mine.

Re:WTF is "Yaoi Manga?"

[dbIII]

It's this weird idea that a book about something is the same as that thing. To get an idea of how stupid that is think about all the books, movies, TV shows etc about murder.

And the censorship continues.

[rebelwarlock]

It doesn't matter what you think of yaoi, or manga, or erotica in general. Surely you can see where this is going. Stop supporting the thought police and put your money into companies that don't censor books. Amazon won't stop until they lose enough money. There's no telling when they'll start ruining classics.

Re:And the censorship continues.

[DurendalMac]

What interest does Amazon have in spending potentially MILLIONS on a case that nets them almost no benefit and could cost them dearly? Obscenity laws have come to the Supreme Court before and were upheld. Hell, the courts (can't remember if it went all the way to the SC) ruled that ANY community can hold the whole fucking internet hostage when it comes to obscenity. Is your content "obscene" to some tightass bunch of moral crusaders? You could do time. No fucking joke. It's godawful and NEEDS to change, but I don't think Amazon has a huge interest in seeing that happen. They have little to gain.

Re:And the censorship continues.

[tnk1]

Please. An attack on yaoi isn't going to turn into an attack on Shakespeare. If you think that, you're delusional.

Look, if you like that sort of thing, that's fine I guess, but it's not like it's one of the bedrocks of literary tradition. To suggest that soft-core porn comics of idealized boys going at it for the entertainment of girls is some sort of test raid on something like classical literature is just silly.

It's a niche market that brings with it some concern that it will alienate the larger part of their clientele and possibly fall afoul of obscenity laws in a way that they don't want to waste time defending themselves against. Those are good reasons to stop carrying it.

The best way to go after this is to see if the obscenity laws can be re-written, but even that does not mean that they have to carry that sort of material.

Not that I'm interested in the following... okay?

[Pseudonym Authority]

Bullshit, yaoi is just gay hentai, (where as yuri is lesbian hentai). Shotacon is, usually gay, hentai with little boys, (and lolicon is hentai with little girls, if you were just dying to know).

dongs galore

[eltardo]

As long as I can still buy 12" double sided dildos on Amazon, I'm good.

Re:dongs galore

[Junta]

Options: Beige

No other colors? Is Amazon being racist and rejecting other optons?

Amazon was offended, end of story

[Jeremy Erwin]

Amazon's content requirements are very clear. Even if the material is not pornographic, it can still offend-- and Amazon is not obligated to explain why it has chosen to take offense.

Re:Amazon was offended, end of story

[betterunixthanunix]

Those "common" folk whose "good" you are protecting are complicit in the censorship; the overwhelming majority of people in the United States support obscenity laws and whatnot. Most people do not really care about Yaoi manga being removed form Amazon, and quite a few people in America will applaud Amazon for being a "family friendly company" that protects their children from any depiction of sexuality (certainly HOMOSEXUALITY).

Re:Amazon was offended, end of story

[Issarlk]

I think the highest standard we can find is in Iran. Let's put Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in control of Amazon's "content quality" section to remove bad items from their catalog.

Can this discussion actually be constructive?

[Art Popp]

I'd be curious as to whether someone has a better model in mind on how this should be done.

Given:

The Amazon Kindle Terms and Conditions: “We are entitled to determine what content we accept and distribute through the Program in our sole discretion.”

The anime.net definition of Yaoi:
          An acronym standing for YAma nashi, Ochi nashi, Imi nashi – No Climax, no point, no meaning. It’s used
          to describe manga/anime focusing on male relationships, not avoiding strong, graphically portrayed homosexual
          themes. Very often, yaoi story focuses only on the sex, ignoring elements like true plot, emotions or characters development.

There really is zero doubt as to why Amazon didn't want this on the Kindle. I don't know why there are any “phone calls from journalists asking about the subject.” If you live in the US, clearly the Kindle's primary market, then you know that there are a large number of people here who would spontaneously combust if the they found their tweenager reading this stuff as a “Lend Me” book on their Kindle.

Given that this content is available online (and in color) it would seem a difficult niche to make money on, which would be required to re-engineer your whole e-book system to have age-sections/age-bars. Simply rating 900,000 ebooks so you could decide their category would be a serious expense.

So my questions are:

        Would such ratings be more valuable than they would be a tool for greater censorship?

        What scale would you use?

        Is this is project we should Open/Crowd-Source?

        Where would you rate: The Canterbury Tales, Sons and Lovers, 1984?

        The above are available on the Kindle store now. Would an rating system that we implemented make them available to more or fewer total humans?

Re:Can this discussion actually be constructive?

[betterunixthanunix]

I'd be curious as to whether someone has a better model in mind on how this should be done.

The Kindle should be able to display and process books from retailers other than Amazon, so that Amazon does not have so much control over what books people are able to obtain. It is absurd to think that people should need multiple book readers just to have options to buy books from other sources.

If you live in the US, clearly the Kindle's primary market, then you know that there are a large number of people here who would spontaneously combust if the they found their tweenager reading this stuff as a âoeLend Meâ book on their Kindle.

Then those parents should speak to their children about why such things are not allowed in the house. If their children are willing to break the rules even with their parents explaining why the rules exist, then they will find a way to obtain the books without Amazon's help. The real question here is, why should Amazon be playing the role of parent, and why is it that one particular parenting style is the one that Amazon is worrying about? What about all those people who want to teach their children that censorship and oppression are wrong and unacceptable?

Would such ratings be more valuable than they would be a tool for greater censorship?

No, they would have no value at all.

Is this is project we should Open/Crowd-Source?

Considering that censorship flies in the face of everything that the Free Software Foundation and Open Source movement stand for, no, it is not.

Would an rating system that we implemented make them available to more or fewer total humans?

Fewer.

Re:Can this discussion actually be constructive?

[dwillden]

A few posters have said no to rating systems. Why no ratings?

While not perfect, does the MPAA rating scheme not give you at a glance a general idea as to how kid (or adult) friendly a movie is? Probably shouldn't be taking the kindergarten kids to see that R movie. Similar with the game rating system. Neither system is perfect. Stuff gets mis-rated all the time, but in a general sense they and the music system are all great for giving parents a good general idea as to what they will allow their children to see, play, listen too, or read if we extend to this new area of ratings.

As a parent I want to be able to tell at a glance, regardless of the name, whether or not I want my young kids to see it. A movie name, and often even the trailers can give very poor cues as to the maturity of the film.

Similarly I don't want to go see what I think is a good action adventure/spy film and find out after I've put down my money that it's a kids film, based around CGI newts. I'll take my young kids to G and maybe PG movies and my dates to PG-13 or R movies. Such a rating system would be great for books as well. Not all parents are avid readers. Some would rather chew their own foot off before reading a book. Even if it is to see if the content is allowable within their moral guidelines for their kids. A rating system would allow them to make fairly safe authorizations based on rating levels.

Not all subjects are fine at all ages. Reading some topics, or viewing some materials at too young an age really can harm a child psychologically, introduce them to concepts their mind isn't mature enough to handle yet and the results can be quite harmful.

A rating system is not censorship. The books are still published, and still available. A rating system allows those with moral or similar objections to some materials to avoid those materials, while still allowing those with no objections to the materials to enjoy them. Censorship is saying "I don't like that book, ban it so nobody can read it." This is saying "I don't like that book, and don't want that smut in my house. But thank you for giving me a way to determine it's content without having to subject my mind to it. But anyone else who wants to read it can." Yes this does allow for close minded people to avoid certain topics or materials, but it does not deny any other adults access to those same materials. And as for the children of the close minded adults, when they grow up they can choose to access the materials.

Re:Can this discussion actually be constructive?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

A rating system is not censorship. The books are still published, and still available.

No they aren't "still published." Ratings convince publishers to edit for content in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. For example. there has not been a rated-R super-hero movie since 2009, and there are none currently in production either.

Not all subjects are fine at all ages. Reading some topics, or viewing some materials at too young an age really can harm a child psychologically, introduce them to concepts their mind isn't mature enough to handle yet and the results can be quite harmful.

That, btw, is nothing more than truthy folklore.

Re:Can this discussion actually be constructive?

[Rakishi]

Not all subjects are fine at all ages. Reading some topics, or viewing some materials at too young an age really can harm a child psychologically, introduce them to concepts their mind isn't mature enough to handle yet and the results can be quite harmful.

Which subjects? Please cite studies.

Europe and many other countries around the world seem perfectly fine despite being very open about nudity. In fact, they'd probably claim the US is a degenerate bunch of Neanderthals for how much violence we allow our children to see.

So which standard are you using? Is nudity okay for your children as many Europeans would claim or is violence okay as many Americans would claim? Which one is based on science and which one is based on arbitrary cultural views? Well?

In reality, a rating system compresses a very complex multi-dimensional set of movie descriptors into a single axis. No matter how much you may delude yourself into thinking there is science behind how it's done, there isn't. It's an arbitrary choice based on culture. Not your culture, btw, but that of whomever makes the decision on the rating.

Amazon Deleting 1984 Was a Warning...

[Ron Bennett]

After Amazon remotely deleted 1984 (ironic to say the least), this is no surprise. It would be akin to a book seller breaking into one's home to take back a book one had already bought; "licensed" is the loophole Amazon and other on-line book sellers uses to get around the 1st sale doctrine to restrict, or even often forbid, resale, sharing, etc.

More to the point, the 1984 incident illustrated well that Kindles, much like many mobile devices, are designed with remote deletion in mind - there was an article on here the other day about Google remotely deleting apps.

While Amazon supposedly agreed they will refrain from utilizing remote deletion in the future, the feature still exists. On a related note, even if the device out of the box doesn't support remote deletion, any device that accepts software updates with little (ie. Bluray players; inserting a disc) to no user intervention (mobile phones) can easily be programmed to remotely restrict / delete / self-destruct.

Among the best defenses against remote deletion / restrictions are widely used, non-DRM formats that can be easily copied and widely distributed, as well as, easily compared / verified to ensure the contents haven't changed...

To digress a tad, it's only a matter of time, assuming it's not already happened, before some company, such as Amazon, doesn't remotely delete a book, but rather silently modifies some of the content *after* purchase without telling the customer.

Ron

Re:Amazon Deleting 1984 Was a Warning...

[DaScribbler]

You left out the point that when Amazon removed 1984 (and Animal Farm too) from Kindle devices, it was because it was discovered that the books were added to the Kindle store by a publisher that didn't have the rights to sell the books. And that the books were subsequently re-added to the Kindle store by the publisher that DID have the rights to them. The customers were refunded and credited for their troubles.

The analogy that it's akin to breaking into one's home is a bit of a stretch.

Re:Amazon Deleting 1984 Was a Warning...

[cmholm]

The copyright issue was besides the point... which was the ease with which Amazon nuked the digital volumes. As a consumer of printed works, I want the sale to remain final, regardless of whether the distributor later has a change of heart given their perception of business, legal, moral, or national security issues.

Re:Amazon Deleting 1984 Was a Warning...

[Ephemeriis]

You left out the point that when Amazon removed 1984 (and Animal Farm too) from Kindle devices, it was because it was discovered that the books were added to the Kindle store by a publisher that didn't have the rights to sell the books. And that the books were subsequently re-added to the Kindle store by the publisher that DID have the rights to them. The customers were refunded and credited for their troubles.

The analogy that it's akin to breaking into one's home is a bit of a stretch.

Granted, the publisher did not have the rights to those books. That is true.

But it wasn't really those books being pulled from the store that surprised me. What surprised me was those books being deleted from Kindles.

If I go buy a paper copy of 1984 and it turns out that the publisher doesn't have the right to it, that book will be pulled from store shelves, but I'll still have my book sitting at home.

Amazon did the digital equivalent of sending someone to your house to forcibly collect the offending book. Sure, you were refunded... But that doesn't make me feel much better.

Re:Amazon Deleting 1984 Was a Warning...

[DaScribbler]

Actually, if you purchase a stolen item, said item can legally be taken back from you. Purchase of a stolen item does not grant the purchaser any right to keep it.

In most cases, if the stolen item is worth $5, and it would cost $50+ in resources to go collect that item, it's just not worth the effort. On the other hand, if the item in question is worth $20,000 (like say... a car), then yes, expect to get a knock on the door from somebody looking to take it back.

Now if that $5 book only cost a couple pennies to get the book back, then it's now worth the effort to go and retrieve it. Welcome to the Digital Age.

Re:Not that I'm interested in the following... oka

[Anonymous Coward]

I think your Google is broken.

Re:Relevant contact addresse?

[Anonymous Coward]

kindle-feedback@amazon.com

I'm going to go ahead and be the first commenter on this article to own up to being a Yaoi fan. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to purchase a copy of The Color of Love.

Re:Not that I'm interested in the following... oka

[Rakshasa Taisab]

Proving once again that ignorance of proper terminology leads to stupidity.

118 comments, and not said yet, so:

[fyngyrz]

If a fictional book is created, sold and read, illustrated or not, about a bank heist, no one is stealing; nothing has been stolen; it is fiction. A work of imagination. For entertainment purposes.

The same applies to interactions such as those found in Lolita, Yaoi titles, the Story of O, Exit to Eden, Belinda, and so on for quite a long list written over an impressive span of time (erotica is hardly unique to the 20th and 21st centuries.)

That said, there is no question that as a venue for selling products, the seller has the right to choose what products they will sell; all that remains is for the customers to decide if those choices make them more or less likely to shop there.

Finally, an interesting reality of our society is summed up by the phrase "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." If you wish to apply legitimate pressure encouraging Amazon to carry all titles without making content-based cullings, simply contact them, tell them so, and indicate that your future purchasing plans will vary depending on Amazon's behavior here. And then follow through.

I would suggest that this is worth doing; today, it's something you probably don't care if you ever see. Tomorrow, it may be something you do care about. Ideally, a venue for buying e-books would, as Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos has claimed is their goal, carry every book, no matter what content.

Re:118 comments, and not said yet, so:

[Opportunist]

You're looking in sensibility and sanity in laws and regulations regarding sex? You can as well try to look for sense in copyright laws. Both have nothing to do with reality.

It tells you something about our society when a book about two people trying to fuck each other is at least "questionable", while a book about two people trying to kill each other is not.

Re:So what's new?

[Asic Eng]

That's all you ever get from Amazon on *any* issue. Sending them email - whether it's about a complaint with an order or a protest - will only get you a form letter. On top of that Amazon has no issue tracking system, if you email and then call, they will have no record of your email. Next call they won't have a record of your previous call. There is more than one reason to swear off them.

Re:About time

[Opportunist]

A law is supposed to protect something or someone from damage.

Please elaborate and show me the damage done to anyone by a ... cartoon. I could see it if the people depicted resemble some real person (i.e. caricature) and this person has to suffer the fallout from it, but, well, I'm no manga expert but in general the drawings don't even come close to being realistic, let alone allow any comparison with a real person.

So please show me the damage done. Just saying "it's gay kiddy porn" isn't enough for me, sorry. A law should protect someone from damage that cannot protect himself. And somehow I do not recognize the rights of imaginary characters in a comic book, sorry.

Amazon is not controlling your ebooks

[Chemisor]

Amazon is merely controlling what it sells in its online ebook store. You can still obtain you books from other sources and read it on your Kindle. Sure, it might not be as convenient; you have to convert from a different format, like .epub or .lit, but there are free tools, like Calibre, available for the purpose.

stop conflating LGBT with NAMBLA

[decora]

this is a disgusting meme, but it seems to keep popping up over the years.

LGBT people, in general, do not believe in child sexual abuse nor do they support child pornography.

Re:No real person gives a fuck.

[Repossessed]

None of the censored titles are pornographic. Many of them are erotica (which according to Amazon is fine as long as its straight) and at least one was categorized as romance before Amazon recategorized it as adult.

Re:oh then how do i know?

[vertinox]

the whole 'female audience' thing is very likely to be utter fucking bullshit.

In Japan it is.

If you go to Japan and notice a bunch of old ladies reading comics, chances are you seeing the Yaoi section. (I went holy shit and started l started laughing when I realized it was true what they said when I walked through a store in Akihabara once)

Truth be told, not all Yaoi is pornographic. I'd wager the majority of it isn't in Japan. They have a weird sense of things. Like maid cafes and host clubs, they get off on subtle things like "dead Japanese parent syndrome" (where the plot of the story is the kids parents have died releasing them from their obligations... strange how so many Anime and Manga's have that plot line)

Anyways, my point is, that the stuff English speakers google is probably pornographic because that is what they expect from Japan while in reality Japan isn't all about sex.