Apple Proposes Smaller SIM Card Design

An anonymous reader writes with word that Apple, as reported by Reuters, has proposed a smaller SIM card standard. Says the Orange executive quoted, "We were quite happy to see last week that Apple has submitted a new requirement to (European telecoms standards body) ETSI for a smaller SIM form factor -- smaller than the one that goes in iPhone 4 and iPad." Hard to believe that any phone designed for the human hand could be much limited by the size of the current micro-SIMs, but this is one race to the bottom I'm pleased with.

Comments

Of course, it's for those implantable iPhones

[rolfwind]

as seen on Futurama....

I wonder if they'll sport the "As Seen On TV" on them?

Re:Of course, it's for those implantable iPhones

[artor3]

No, no, no. As seen in your dreams.

Re:Of course, it's for those implantable iPhones

[dmbasso]

I bet it is because you can't lock operators anymore, after the newer x-sim's (e.g.: http://www.super-xsim.com/ )

Re:Of course, it's for those implantable iPhones

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow these people could really use some "feetback" on their orthography.

Re:Of course, it's for those implantable iPhones

[AmigaMMC]

I bet it is because you can't lock operators anymore, after the newer x-sim's (e.g.: http://www.super-xsim.com/ )

I don't trust Apple. I bet it's a way to stop people from cutting their regular SIMs to micro size.

Re:Of course, it's for those implantable iPhones

[qubezz]

As seen in Zoolander

Re:Of course, it's for those implantable iPhones

[Gilmoure]

And if you add a notch to the other side, you can write to both sides.

Nooo, don't do this!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you do, I won't be able to punch the big SIMs into smaller versions and make a saving! Thinner devices are tempting however.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[dloose]

Please. A SIM card is not a major investment. Your provider will give you a replacement your SIM (in any form factor they support) for a nominal fee. That's not lock-in. Lock-in is what Apple originally did with iTunes DRM. They made a proprietary format that could only be played with Apple hardware and software. as a result, people could not switch to another manufacturer's portable media player without having to repurchase all of their music. Hence, they were locked in.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[Ethanol-fueled]

If it's a lock-in strategy, then why doesn't Apple just hardwire the SIM/ID mechanisms using chips of their own design? They can be as slim as they wanna be and also get the lock-in they want. That or doing it in the firmware*, are the only feasible options for a class of devices that will only become smaller and more disposable.

* Which will probably never be allowed due to its ease of hackability

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[milkmage]

maybe your "shaving" is a SEAsia thing because here in the US, I took the SIM from my US Blackberry (same carrier) and put it in my 1st gen iphone w/o shaving anything, then I jailbroke it and put another SIM from another carrier to test the jailbreak... again - didn't shave anything.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[mellon]

Strictly speaking, it's a lock-out strategy. Whenever I travel abroad, I have to talk the local cell provider into selling me a standard SIM, which I then have to cut down to fit in the tiny slot in my giant iPad (most providers claim to sell Micro-SIMs, but they never seem to have them in stock). Whereas I can put a standard SIM in my Nexus S. Guess why I bought a Nexus S instead of an iPhone 4? (Well, okay, partly it was because it was unlocked, but the non-hassle-factor is pretty major too.) If Apple comes up with a SIM that can't even be cut down, that'll be a *really* strong reason not to buy whatever device depends on it.

Honestly, "too large" hasn't been a factor in my cell phone purchases in a *long* time. I don't want a screen the size of my thumbnail anyway. Sometimes standard is more important than small.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[mellon]

I think he means "when the iPhone 4 originally came out," not "when the original iPhone came out." As you say, the original iPhone takes a standard SIM.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[milkmage]

you can buy a non ATT micoSIM for a j/b 4 or ipad
http://www.amazon.com/T-Mobile-stick-together-Micro-SIM-pre-paid/dp/B003PQHMEI

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[Dynedain]

When the only carrier who offers this new smaller factor SIM card is the only carrier licensed/authorized by Apple, then you have service lock-in.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[PopeRatzo]

If it's a lock-in strategy, then why doesn't Apple just hardwire the SIM/ID mechanisms using chips of their own design?

Because that would also lock in Apple.

The idea is to lock in the customer, not the corporation.

A sim card is currently about the size of a fingernail, isn't it? Does anyone buy the line that they want to make it smaller so they can make smaller handsets?

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[Jarik C-Bol]

No, they want it smaller so they can add some other chip/feature/part to the phone in the space its taking up now.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[UnknowingFool]

A sim card is currently about the size of a fingernail, isn't it? Does anyone buy the line that they want to make it smaller so they can make smaller handsets?

Have you ever considered that the same company that makes their iDevices smaller/thinner every year, won't want to make the SIM card smaller?

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes standard is more important than small.

That's what she said

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[Cimexus]

Doesn't have to be a jailbreaked iPhone 4, just unlocked.

I use that T-Mobile microSIM in my decidedly non-jailbreaked iPhone 4 all the time when I'm in the US. Only get EDGE data speed of course but that's quite adequate for a bit of email while travelling.

Though, I already find the microSIMs too small to comfortably handle and manipulate. How much smaller do we want them? >

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[LynnwoodRooster]

Uhh, not in SE Asia - microSIMs are rare, and when the iPhone 4 came out they were non-existent. Same thing in China at the time of their release - a lot of people cutting down regular units to try to make them work.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[Z00L00K]

I see this with a different SIM card size as a way to lock the customer to a specific brand, not to improve the experience for the customer. If I will be locked to only use Apple phones with my SIM card then I can't change to another brand with standard SIM card size.

And I can't see a benefit of a phone much thinner than the phone I have today, it will just be more sensitive to damage.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[Z00L00K]

You haven't understood the real reason behind the use of SIM cards - the ability to swap phone at your leisure without the need to mess with the telecom operator. At least this is possible in many locations throughout the world - like in Europe. And maybe you want to have a cheap rugged phone when you are out on a hike and a cool flashy when you are at work.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[mad_minstrel]

A sim card is currently about the size of a fingernail, isn't it? Does anyone buy the line that they want to make it smaller so they can make smaller handsets?

On the other hand, it's twice as large as a microSD card which holds several orders of magnitude more data. If you take into account the housing and the circuitry needed to read the SIM card, it's no longer as ridiculous as you think.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Strictly speaking, it's a lock-out strategy. Whenever I travel abroad, I have to talk the local cell provider into selling me a standard SIM, which I then have to cut down to fit in the tiny slot in my giant iPad (most providers claim to sell Micro-SIMs, but they never seem to have them in stock). Whereas I can put a standard SIM in my Nexus S.

Yeah, right. A "standard" SIM card is the size of a credit card - you mean mini-SIM. Same fucking deal with cutting down and "lock-out" many years ago, you n00b. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Telia_micro_SIM_with_brackets.jpg

This isn't an issue of Apple locking people, its simply an issue of providers not wanting to spend a cent on changing millions of prefabed SIM cards. It's quite telling that people attack Apple for adopting a standard 6 years after it was agreed upon as too soon - agreed upon by the same providers that now still can't deliver what is only a tighter cut of the same fucking chip.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[gnapster]

You'll stop laughing when you can make phone calls with your iPod Nano and a headset.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[mellon]

Um, not everything that plays badly for Apple is an Apple bash. In this case, *nobody else is using* the MicroSIM, because *nobody else cares.* Apple wants cell phone providers to stock an extra product just so that their customers can use their product. Providers gamely try to do this, but it's hard to get the stock quantities right. So there are always more of the standard ones than the small ones available.

BTW, by "standard" here I mean "the one everyone uses," not "one that is described in a standards document."

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Um, not everything that plays badly for Apple is an Apple bash. In this case, *nobody else is using* the MicroSIM, because *nobody else cares.* Apple wants cell phone providers to stock an extra product just so that their customers can use their product. Providers gamely try to do this, but it's hard to get the stock quantities right. So there are always more of the standard ones than the small ones available.

BTW, by "standard" here I mean "the one everyone uses," not "one that is described in a standards document."

Every provider that has used up their prefabed SIM cards with no micro-SIM cutouts now has prefabed SIM cards with mini- and micro-SIM cutouts. It's as simple as that. As for your insistence what is standard and what isn't - I'd rather an actual standard body decides on that instead of some loser on the intarweb who has a beef with Apple. And that body decided the micro-SIM is a standard long before you got your first phone, whippersnapper.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, submitting the spec to ETSI totally makes it impossible for any phone maker to follow the standard and produce a compatible SIM card, you're right.

God forbid that any company try to shrink the components they're using in a portable device. I think we can all agree:
- 640K is all the RAM we'll ever need;
- 15 pounds is plenty light enough for a portable computer;
- nobody will ever want to use their phone for more than 8 hours between recharges.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[redalien]

Absolutely. My first phone took a mini-SIM but there's a full-SIM handset at my house. I remember them well, and when I got my first mini-SIM I thought how clever it was that they were backwards compatible. You know, IPv6 has been a standard for ages and it's got low adoption. Why? Because the people that could choose to do it are lazy, however they're more likely to do a simple change like this as it doesn't block backwards compat.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[PopeRatzo]

Then why haven't they made the external connector smaller? How about making the on-button smaller? Or maybe they should focus on making the headphone jack smaller?

I think there's a pretty clear reason why they would not want a standard SIM card in their iPhone. It's related to the reason that Apple didn't want the iPad to have the same SIM card as the iPhone.

Re:Nooo, don't do this!

[UnknowingFool]

Maybe because those are things that people handle everyday and making them smaller will make them impractical? And what is the grand design? All you see behind everything is "Apple is evil" and that there are no practical reasons.

Thinner devices?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is the justification for the need for smaller sim cards. Frankly, the sim card is thin enough (I'm sure it could be thinner, but it is still much thinner than the device). And all that is used is a bunch of contacts from the sim. I fail to see how a smaller sim card would do away with much of the thickness.

Re:Thinner devices?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the area not the thinness.

Re:Thinner devices?

[binarylarry]

Exactly, it's what I tell all my girlfriends:

It's not the size that counts but how you use it.

Re:Thinner devices?

[v1]

Look at SD cards, compared to say, usb flash drives or even floppies. I'm sure they were scoffed at for being inconveniently small at the time.

Now look at the Micro SD cards. They took something that some already thought was too small, and made it a LOT smaller. ok, THAT is getting into my area of "inconveniently small", but yet here we have them and they're popular in small devices like cell phones. A smaller sim card is just the same way, it's just the next step, not the last.

Re:Thinner devices?

[tophermeyer]

If SIM's get down to the size of MicroSD (or smaller) they will be out of the range of sizes that average users will be able to handle themselves. To me this sounds a lot like Apple trying to create some kind of lock-in, where users are completely free to replace their SIM but not realistically able to.

Re:Thinner devices?

[Anonymous Coward]

Duh. That's my theory why they really went to MicroSIM to begin with. Other phones, no larger or thicker than the iPhone, have normal sized SIM cards.

It's lock-in; copuled with Apple brainwashing hipsters into thinking that different means better. Nothing more.

Re:Thinner devices?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, you think devices are miniaturized by identifying and exchanging one giant oversized component at a time?

That's it, we need to remove the display panel!

Re:Thinner devices?

[petermgreen]

Afaict microsims are already as small as microSD, making them even smaller will make them very awkward to handle.

Not a big deal for those who live in one country and use one SIM all the time but a very big deal for those who travel and want to swap sims to get a deal that is decent locally.

Re:Thinner devices?

[rta]

The use-cases around sim cards already suck.

a) Why do I have to remove my battery in order to swap my sim card ? (on a G2, but also on my G1 and my blackberry Pearl). some security is good so that someone can't easily swipe my sim card, but there's NO reason why these things shouldn't be physically hot swappable in devices (as smart cards are already hot swappable electrically and in terms of interface )

b) Why don't phones support multiple sim cards concurrently ? Perhaps, you know... your business line and your personal line ? i remember some such beasts existed like 10 years ago, but haven't heard anything since. Or using one for data and one for voice etc. At least have both installed and allow for a sw selection. (I don't fully understand the cell to tower protocol, so don't know how actively a unit has to listen on its assigned channel, so don't know if one radio can actually register on multiple networks or multiple ids at the same time).

anyway... this move is totally about more control by apple.

Re:Thinner devices?

[bruce_the_loon]

a) Worldwide, the vast majority of cell users never swap their SIMS so changing a design and implementing a new locking mechanism that won't accidentally eject the SIM when dropped isn't worth the designers' time.

There is also an element of security in the design. If someone steals my handset, they can't switch to another SIM without going through my PIN to start the phone.

b) Google dual-SIM phones sometime. There are a number out there for precisely this use. Maybe they're not available in your country, but they do exist. If you are American, you really should think about an armed revolution against your cellular companies.

Re:Thinner devices?

[Hognoxious]

It's also simpler and cheaper (& probably more robust) to make use of an an opening that's already there rather than make a new one.

I'll tell you what *does* annoy me though - phones that won't do anything at all if there's no SIM present.

Re:Thinner devices?

[jimicus]

There is also an element of security in the design. If someone steals my handset, they can't switch to another SIM without going through my PIN to start the phone.

The PIN's associated with the SIM card, not the phone. Most phones do allow you to set a phone-specific PIN but AFAIK most people don't bother.

Re:Thinner devices?

[bruce_the_loon]

Must have set the phone one on my old Nokia then, when I gave it to my mom, she was asked for my PIN and I wasn't asked on the new phone.

Dare I say it?

[newcastlejon]

This has less to do with practical concerns about footprint and more about making sim-swapping even harder. Are they really saying a ~1cm^2 SIM is too big, even in an iPad?

Karma be damned, Apple only need that bulky SIM holder because there isn't a user-replaceable battery and its associated cover. I've had enough other brand phones to see that there are better (i.e. smaller) ways to hold a SIM.

Re:Dare I say it?

[ModernGeek]

I'd rather have a phone that has a software-swappable identifier that handshakes with the tower, but I suppose that is just dreaming.

Re:Dare I say it?

[Bogtha]

Apple have patented something along those lines and the carriers weren't happy about it.

Re:Dare I say it?

[Bogtha]

Apple only need that bulky SIM holder because there isn't a user-replaceable battery and its associated cover.

User-replaceable batteries take up more space. They need extra casing and catches that are otherwise unnecessary.

Hardware SIMs are an annoyance. They should be replaced by software, in which case they would take up no room at all.

Re:Dare I say it?

[Microlith]

Are they really saying a ~1cm^2 SIM is too big, even in an iPad?

A physically smaller, but otherwise identical, SIM card would be easy for most vendors to get behind. Reduced z-height and board area would be welcomed, considering that the average SIM card is mostly plastic and larger in all 3 dimensions than the average microSD card. And yes, all manufacturers take those parameters into consideration.

I've had enough other brand phones to see that there are better (i.e. smaller) ways to hold a SIM.

  But no way to reduce the physical, internal footprint of the SIM card itself, short of eliminating all the plastic and soldering it in entirely or redesigning the packaging (which is mostly plastic and huge contacts.)

Re:Dare I say it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and if you have user replaceable batteries then the users might just replace their own batteries! Just think of it, they could do things like replace old batteries that don't hold a charge properly or carry an extra battery if they're going to be away from an external power source for a long time! In the former case, the manufacturer could loose all kinds of income replacing batteries for you and selling customers only the overpriced batteries they want you to have at ridiculous repair cost. In the latter it might just make the device more useful to some consumers, and we know how much some (looking DIRECTLY at you apple) companies hate it when you start thinking that you own hardware that you bought from them.

Re:Dare I say it?

[mjwx]

I'd rather have a phone that has a software-swappable identifier that handshakes with the tower, but I suppose that is just dreaming.

The security implications make this less then desirable.

Yes it is securable enough to work, in theory (using PKI)...

But in reality, where telco's won't even enforce security on voicemail (I call my voicemail from overseas all the time, I only need to enter my Australian phone number) and the average person doesn't give a crap about keeping their private key secure. When an attacker only needs 2 minutes to grab a phone, copy the private key and return it the average person wont even notice it's missing in that time and few people actually use the security features on their phone.

What I'd like is a mix between the two. The private key needs to be an installable ROM module (SIM card). The SIM is mine, I assign it to an IMEI and I give both to the telco who registers that on their system. If I want to register the same IMEI and SIM on a different network, I should be able to do that too. But because of the security implications, the SIM needs to be unique and hardware based.

Re:Dare I say it?

[taharvey]

Snore.... Slashdot is paranoid about Apple, like teabaggers are about taxes.

Nothing about Apples motives here have anything to do with exclusivity. That is why Apple is leading the way with a standards body. Apple is not the conspiracy that Slashdot makes it out to be. Apple is easy to understand, and their motive is always been clear:

1. Sure they are insanely profitable and have a somewhat walled garden. But to see this as greed is to totally misunderstand Apple culture and Steve Jobs. It is all about Idealism and designing the "one perfect thing". In fact, Steve Jobs idealism for making "beautiful devices" that will "change the world" far outstrips any profit motive he has.

2. Sealed batteries, smaller sim cards and the like are critical paths to Apple's future product plans. Just like technological advances enables product development, Apple sees industrial design and packaging on a equal footing with technology. They have conceptual products they are laying the groundwork for years in advance. Don't look at the current need look at the possible needs down the road.

Re:Dare I say it?

[peragrin]

Consider the simple fact that the standard Sim card is larger that the A4 processor in the iphone I would say yes.

Think of all that wasted space since the SIM usually only has a couple of Megs of storage too. A Mini SIM that the current iPhone uses is nearly 30% the size of of the A4 processor. and the same size as my 4GB microSD.

Re:Dare I say it?

[TubeSteak]

I'd rather have a phone that has a software-swappable identifier that handshakes with the tower,

Sounds spoofable.

Re:Dare I say it?

[Aeternitas827]

I'd rather have a phone that has a software-swappable identifier that handshakes with the tower, but I suppose that is just dreaming.

Similar to the good old days of the ESN (think Analog, TDMA, CDMA)? Granted, the ESN was printed right in the back of the thing, and all someone needed was a few minutes to get that (at most) and cloning isn't far behind--not that the GSM method is unclonable, but really, it's more often going to be easier to just yoink someone's SIM and use it while you can.

You also lose the benefit of being able to just switch to a different phone on your own if the identifier is a value stored in the phone--every phone would have to have it's own identifier on the network (letting multiple phones share the same would make it hard to claim cloning with your provider, should it happen--it's built in for multiple phones to say they're the same person at that point), so if you wanted or needed to change handsets, it's another call to your provider.

Re:Dare I say it?

[ozmanjusri]

I'd rather have a phone that has a software-swappable identifier that handshakes with the tower

I don't even want the tower...
http://www.servalproject.org/how-it-works

Re:Dare I say it?

[Anne Thwacks]

Yes, but you can carry a replacement battery in your pocket so when your battery is flat, you are not stuck on the freeway with no navigation.

There is NO chance of me buying a phone if I cant carry a spare battery.

Re:Dare I say it?

[ergean]

Have you seen the size of a normal sim and it's holding cradle in most of the phones? In my nokia the sim holder is more then 3 time the size of the sim, not considering the underlining connectors and the structure around it. It may seem small, but it ads up.
I hate small phones, but I think if you could make a smaller sim, it could be better.

Re:Dare I say it?

[SeaFox]

Yes, but you can carry a replacement battery in your pocket so when your battery is flat, you are not stuck on the freeway with no navigation.

If you're in your car, why can't you just plug in your mobile charger?

Re:Dare I say it?

[Xest]

There was trend in Europe some years back with phones where smaller was cooler. Back then we had phones that absolutely dwarfed the bricks (slang for large phones) companies are chucking out now. Obviously the increase in phone size now is partly out of necessity, you need a bigger phone for a reasonable sized touch screen for it to be useful for example, but ultimately SIM size was never a limiting factor back then, and there's no reason it would possible be a limiting factor now.

This is almost certainly about creating artificial incompatibility to try and increase lock in by making sure your SIM wont work in anything else as nothing else will support this non-standard SIM form factor.

Re:Dare I say it?

[Mr_Silver]

I'd rather have a phone that has a software-swappable identifier that handshakes with the tower, but I suppose that is just dreaming.

I don't. If it's in software then it can be locked down and I can be forced by either the current carrier and/or the hardware manufacturer to jump through additional (probably costly) hoops to change carrier.

I can replace a SIM with any carrier I like, at any time I like, at no additional cost to me (beyond buying the SIM and the minutes/data for the carrier I want to use) and without having to be tied to any kind of data connection for verification/authentication/billing.

Re:Dare I say it?

[maxwell demon]

2. Sealed batteries, smaller sim cards and the like are critical paths to Apple's future product plans.

So what sort of future product would cause a problem with current products having replaceable batteries?

Re:Dare I say it?

[teh kurisu]

I'd wager that the space gained by not having to accomodate a removable battery is greater than the space lost by having to accommodate a larger SIM tray.

I've had to swap SIMs on a lot of phones (more than my fair share), so I've seen a lot of different methods of securing a SIM. Despite the fact that it requires a tool, the iPhone 4's tray is one of my favourites. No sharp edges, no fingernails, no scratched or bent SIMs, no moments of panic when it seems that the SIM just won't come out, and no SIMs flying across the room. And the metal MicroSIM tray is much more sturdy than the 3G's plastic SIM tray.

I'm actually very surprised that no other manufacturers have adopted the MicroSIM standard in a big way. I would've thought it was one of those situations where there was a desire for a smaller SIM, but nobody was brave enough to take the first step. It's not like it requires any significant new hardware, it's just a differently shaped piece of plastic.

Re:Dare I say it?

[trigpoint]

Yes, but you can carry a replacement battery in your pocket so when your battery is flat, you are not stuck on the freeway with no navigation.

If you're in your car, why can't you just plug in your mobile charger?

A car is a not a good analogy as you do have a power source, try bus, train or just walking and then a 2nd battery can be very useful. Some trains have mains sockets, but far from all, and then only if you get a window seat.

Re:Dare I say it?

[teh kurisu]

There are a whole bunch of iPhone-compatible external battery packs, with some even acting as cases. Sure, they're not ideal, but they do have the added advantage that you don't need to turn the phone off and fiddle with removable parts when you need a power boost.

Also, if you're on the motorway, you're probably better off relying on a car charger than additional batteries. If you get a USB one, you can charge almost anything off them.

Re:Dare I say it?

[SeaFox]

A car is a not a good analogy as you do have a power source, try bus, train or just walking and then a 2nd battery can be very useful.

Some trains have mains sockets, but far from all, and then only if you get a window seat.

According to the gp poster we're on a freeway. Assuming we're in a car is the logical choice. It's generally not legal to walk on freeways. Trains don't run on freeways. And, much like a train, on a bus you are merely a passenger in a vehicle following a predetermined route, so you have little opportunity to do any "navigating".

If you wanted to navigate while on a bus then using a paper bus route map, which are often available in holders on the bus, is more useful, since it shows you were the bus is actually going to be making stops so you can map your path from your disembark point.

If we're on the freeway and it's not our own car we're in it's a taxi, where navigating is also not going to be your job.

Try again.

Re:Dare I say it?

[trigpoint]

A car is a not a good analogy as you do have a power source, try bus, train or just walking and then a 2nd battery can be very useful.

Some trains have mains sockets, but far from all, and then only if you get a window seat.

According to the gp poster we're on a freeway. Assuming we're in a car is the logical choice. It's generally not legal to walk on freeways. Trains don't run on freeways. And, much like a train, on a bus you are merely a passenger in a vehicle following a predetermined route, so you have little opportunity to do any "navigating".

If you wanted to navigate while on a bus then using a paper bus route map, which are often available in holders on the bus, is more useful, since it shows you were the bus is actually going to be making stops so you can map your path from your disembark point.

If we're on the freeway and it's not our own car we're in it's a taxi, where navigating is also not going to be your job.

Try again.

Not just navigation, but there are plenty of times when you are away from a source of power to plug your phone into and carrying a spare battery is the only way the phone will survive the day. You may want to surf the net whilst on the train or bus, or listen to music, then use the phones navigation whilst you walk to your final destination.

Re:Dare I say it?

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

The only reason why phones have replaceable batteries is because the real money in the phone business is in selling replacement battery covers.

Re:Dare I say it?

[cdrudge]

That is why Apple is leading the way with a standards body.

Rambus lead the way too...

Re:Dare I say it?

[Anonymous Coward]

SIM cards also store contact data and some other stuff. Here in GSM&SIM land, where all phones use the same standards, it's common to put a SIM in a different phone when your battery runs out or whatever.

Re:Dare I say it?

[bhtooefr]

On CDMA phones, the MEID (equivalent to IMEI, and I believe exists in the same pool) is the sole unique identifier of the phone. (It is spoofable, but even possessing the tools to spoof it is a felony, if they want to go after you for it.)

The phone has the MEID, MDN (phone number), and MIN (an internal number that can be different from the MDN, and with cell number porting, is quite often different) stored on it. It authenticates to the tower with that information.

The tower checks whether the MEID, MDN, and MIN are correct according to the subscriber information.

Now, as for activation, it works one of three ways:

1. You call your cellular provider from another phone, and provide your MEID. They provide a Master Subsidy Lock code (calculated from the MEID, although some carriers use 000000), and then have you manually enter the MDN and MIN. (This is mainly used on older phones, or phones where the automated programming process fails.)
2. You call your cellular provider from another phone, or go online, and provide your MEID. The phone will check with the tower to see if it needs reprogrammed on boot up, and then reprogram itself with the new MDN and MIN. I believe Sprint is still using this.
3. You call your cellular provider from the phone you want to activate (*28 on Verizon, IIRC). The phone will provide its own MEID, and then you provide your account PIN and phone number, and it pushes the MDN and MIN down.

Re:Dare I say it?

[tzanger]

I bought a little APC battery about 5 or 6 years ago; it's got a USB and microUSB port on it. You plug it into a USB port on a computer or charger to charge it, and you plug your phone into it to charge/power the phone. Works great, stores way more than any secondary phone battery I've ever used, can be charged without a proprietary connector and works for more than one device. Also works great for watching movies on long-haul flights without power sockets.

Seems a lot better solution to me than carrying around a second phone battery.

Re:Dare I say it?

[Skuld-Chan]

This is the way cdma phones work - you call a number and it associates you with you phones ESN.

Re:Dare I say it?

[Skuld-Chan]

Nexus One is actually the same thickness as the Iphone 4 and it has a user replaceable battery ;).

And if you don't like sims - try getting a cdma phone?

Re:Dare I say it?

[sjames]

They don't have to add that much bulk. They can even be in the form of a soft flat pack like the factory battery but with a small connector instead of solder. For that matter, I wouldn't mind soldering if the back cover wasn't welded on and the replacement was sold at a reasonable price.

They could also try designing for function first, then make it pretty. When batteries last as long as the reasonable lifespan of the electronics (fat chance), they can seal it inside. Obviously, not everyone agrees with me that a non-replaceable battery is a non-starter, but it's one reason I don't have an iPhone.

Re:Dare I say it?

[anonymov]

"Wasted space"? Never thought SIM card area is limiting the design. As opposed to, you know, screen size and being comfortable to operate with single hand.

You'd care for SIM size if you'd want, i dunno, wrist-watch cell phone... Oh, wait there are those already. Without minimicronanoSIMs, apparently.

It's not the size, it's the thickness

[dgatwood]

The real issue is not the 2D dimensions, but rather the thickness of the card. You can only make a set of pressure contacts so thin. At some point, I suspect we'll see SIM cards that are thicker, but have their contacts running down the edge of the card instead of across the face, thus reducing the plausible device thickness from about a quarter inch to about a millimeter (if you ignore all the other components that are thicker than a SIM card tray...).

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Lord_of_the_nerf]

Dear Apple,

Shrink things that an everyday user will never handle.

Sincerely, Users
PS: That is, unless you somehow plan on profiting from the number that will be lost, dropped, damaged because of our fat sausage fingers

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Identita]

1mm? The simcard is based on a standard ISO 7816 card format which is .79mm in thickness. Our company can make sim cards that are .3mm in thickness. That's not the issue. Its the volume requirements to tool enough equipment if all the carriers suddenly did want them that thin. Whose going to make them all?

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Apple,

Ignore previous letter. It doesn't speak for me. I want my iPhones even thinner lighter and with a longer battery life.

Sincerely, Actual User

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you not even read what you're replying to?! (I know, I know, IMBNH...)
He was talking about the thickness of a cellphone, or at least a hypothetical SIM-bearing device, since cellphone screens currently are nearly 1mm themselves.

He's saying move the contacts to the edge so you can save the thickness of the contact fingers from the SIM holder, which currently contributes significantly more thickness than the SIM itself.

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Lord_of_the_nerf]

We're talking about SIM cards, dear Anonymous Coward, not iPhones.

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Anonymous Coward]

SIM cards are inside iPhones. Smaller SIM card = smaller lighter iPhone with bigger battery.

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the size, it's the thickness

You know, that's the same argument I've been making for years, but the ladies ain't buyin' it.

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Lord_of_the_nerf]

My point being...shrink other internal bits rather than the universal item that is handled by users often.

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Anonymous Coward]

His point is probably that any reduction in thickness of the card could also lead to reduction in thickness of the phone eventually. Don't let logic get in the way of being a smartass dumbfuck, though.

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Anonymous Coward]

I am still using iphone 3gs solely because it has standard SIM. Can not get iphone 4 because i often buy a local prepaid SIM when abroad, several times a year. And i dare you to find a prepaid data SIM in microsim format - say - in Turkey. Or Malaysia.
Have been using Apple products for 20 years but my next phone will probably be an android because of the SIM issue. Once they get TomTom.

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Anonymous Coward]

I am still using iphone 3gs solely because it has standard SIM. Can not get iphone 4 because i often buy a local prepaid SIM when abroad, several times a year. And i dare you to find a prepaid data SIM in microsim format - say - in Turkey. Or Malaysia.

Can you make or buy a tool or die allowing you to cut a standard SIM to fit?
I think holders for microSIMs exist to go the other way.

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course that breaks all the backwards compatibility that they've been keeping up to now. It's quite nice that any SIM will work in any phone.

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[Anonymous Coward]

My point being is they should shrink all internal components including the sim card.

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[tlhIngan]

My point being...shrink other internal bits rather than the universal item that is handled by users often.

Often? Even when I worked on new phone designs and had SIMs I rarely inserted/removed them more than once a day, usually only because someone else needed the SIM for testing, or I had to trade hardware. Normally my SIM stays stuck in the hardware.

And I doubt a lot of people are buying a new SIM every day - world travellers might have a whole pocketful of SIMs as they go to a different country every day, but that's more of an unusual edge case moreso than common behavior. For a very large majority of people, the SIM is handled twice per phone - once to insert it, once to remove it to be inserted into a new phone. And for a lot of phones, the SIM slot seems to be in a spot as an afterthough. I have had many "oh crap" moments when inserting and removing the SIM card seems to force it to bend at larger-than-preferred angles... or ones that fail to put an adequate wedge so you have to use a screwdriver to remove it...

Compare this with say, the microSD card where constant access is required for the most part (it's the whole point). Though on many phone designs, they seem to put the damn card in the most inaccesible places that require removing the battery - completely defeating the purpose. Or hell, still behind the battery cover so constant access wears the cover down until it constantly falls off.

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[dgatwood]

I believe that they're already at the minimum size for the contact area, and that any further reduction in size would break compatibility anyway, but I could be wrong.

Re:It's not the size, it's the thickness

[trigpoint]

World travellers might have a whole pocketful of SIMs as they go to a different country every day, but that's more of an unusual edge case moreso than common behavior. For a very large majority of people, the SIM is handled twice per phone - once to insert it, once to remove it to be inserted into a new phone.

SIM cards are on sale in every corner shop/convienience store/supermarket, not to mention specialist phone shops. I don't know what the market is, but judging by the display positions used, clearly displayed by the cashier I suspect there is a profit and therefore a market.

Smaller and smaller SIM cards...

[Azadre]

Seems the new CDMA iPhone got Apple thinking about a Sim-less design. Imagine all the goodies that could fit in that .1 cm^3 saved.

Re:Smaller and smaller SIM cards...

[SeaFox]

Seems the new CDMA iPhone got Apple thinking about a Sim-less design.

Yes, a design that requires users to get their account information added to the phone by going through their carrier, thereby making their carrier a gatekeeper preventing people from using certain model devices if they desire.

I can't imagine why Apple would be attracted to a design that reduces customer control over their devices. :rolleyes:

Why smaller?

[youn]

There is already extra space in most phones today. There is a point with phones where they are getting too small; I actually expect the desire for smarter phones bring phone sizes bigger actually

Re:Why smaller?

[Anonymous Coward]

You suspect something that is already happening to come true? where are my insightful mod points when i need them?

http://www.droidforums.net/forum/android-forum/125036-list-top-best-2011-android-phones.html

Re:Why smaller?

[artor3]

Is there extra space? Every teardown I see of the newest smartphone or tablet seems like it's 99% battery, with some electronics squeeze in around the edges.

Which is not to say that shrinking the SIM card will make a noticeable difference in battery life. I'm pretty sure this is the Apple-equivalent of OOXML.

Re:Why smaller?

[NoobixCube]

*looks at my Dell Streak* Yeah... I could really do with a few more inches of screen space...

Re:Why smaller?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is already extra space in most phones today.

Not in the iPhone 4 there isn't. Plus any space saved from components can be used by the battery instead.

Re:Why smaller?

[Whomp-Ass]

Bullshit.

Plenty of space is wasted in not using lightweight, high-strength, low deforming materials on the back (non-touch-screen side.)

For the cost, a wafer thin sliver of titanium would work, perform the same function, and reduce the 'problem' of size/thickness/what-have-you. On the other hand, it would raise the cost of the device by about a nickel...Can't have that.

If you were to go ahead and disassemble the iPhone4 you will find enough voids in the sub-and-super-structure that could house a standard-sized sim card...hell, a couple of screws on the above mentioned back and you could change the battery yourself too.

Re:Why smaller?

[Ixokai]

Uhh, not really, no. http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone-4-Teardown/3130/1

Apple devices are very densely packed: they're the ones who are pushing for this, so other "phones" don't matter -- its not like they're pushing to mandate everyone use these.

Yeah, the Micro SIM is pretty small: its getting small enough that it might be a pain for some people to handle if it gets smaller. But Apple doesn't care -- and not for absurd paranoid rantings about this being a lock-in attempt (seriously? This would be the lamest and most pointless strategy to go about that) -- but because MOST people don't really care about the hot-swapability of a SIM card-- it won't stop people from buying the phones for the most part. If they could reduce that tiny space by 20%, or even 50%, they could maybe fit in a whole new sensor -- or another chip, or more battery room. Who knows what? But it'd open the possibility for them to grow the features and capability even more... which WILL sell phones.

They want EVERYTHING to get smaller. The iPhone will never get any bigger, and I doubt it'll get much smaller, but the stuff inside will continue to shrink -- except for the battery -- until the laws of physics put a stop to it, and Apple will keep cramming the shell as absolutely full as they can figure out how.

Every little bit counts.

Re:Why smaller?

[Anonymous Coward]

length/width won't get smaller, but thickness might, remember, these are the people who built the MacBook Air, thinner and lighter weight than any competitor for a given screen size. While micro SIM is not exactly thick, even thin things add up when they are layered together.

Re:Why smaller?

[Anonymous Coward]

So an iPad then?

Re:Why smaller?

[uglyduckling]

You do know that the iPhone 4 has screws to allow you to remove the back? Or are you just trolling? Checkout the fourth picture in this teardown article. The battery is on a proper connector, so can be easily replaced by a reasonable competent end user.

Re:Why smaller?

[Anonymous Coward]

Extra space, not so much. Usually taken up by battery, or required for thermal dissipation.

But more importantly, what if they wanted to (for example) embed the SIM into say an iPod shuffle? Voice-dial only, bluetooth headset.
The smartphone is not the only type of device which might want an always-on connection in the future.

Re:Why smaller?

[MrNiCeGUi]

What do you mean that people don't care about the hot-swapability of the SIM? People now know that they can but any GSM phone from any manufacturer, put in the SIM card and it will work. They don't even think about the possibility that it wouldn't.

A custom format from Apple would mean that in order to change the phone you would need to get a new SIM from your provider, probably for free, but it will take days, and you won't be able to use your new phone in the mean time (not your old phone either, since they block the old SIM when you require a switch), thus making switching away from Apple really suck.

That's pretty much the definition of manufacturer lock-in.

Re:Why smaller?

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

The battery is on a proper connector, so can be easily replaced by a reasonable competent end user.

Which rules out 90% of the Apple-hating wannabes on Slashdot.

Re:Why smaller?

[neoform]

My iphone is larger than my previous cellphone (razr).

Re:Why smaller?

[wolrahnaes]

Seriously. My last phone was a Sony K850 "candybar" style dumbphone. It was thicker than most due to having a really nice camera, but in terms of length and width was about the size of half of a "king size" actual candy bar. The top corners of the phone created pressure points on my ear when on long calls since it was so narrow. I don't need a smaller phone, in fact I'm quite happy with the size of my Evo, which was the largest smartphone on the market when it came out.

Re:Why smaller?

[makomk]

Now with proprietary Apple screwheads that are nearly impossible to get tools for, as I recall. They changed over some time after the iPhone 4 came out.

POINTLESS

[johnjones]

what do you gain from having a smaller package ?

incompatibility with other phones and thats about it...

the package size does not impact significantly on phone design at all this is simply a case of laziness.. design around it

operators simply have no say it seems any more...

have fun and watch your bottom line disappear operators...

regards

John Jones

Re:POINTLESS

[srodden]

Agreed. It seems to me that the micro SIM is already small enough AND thin enough. The size of a battery of decent duration is a bigger limitation on the thickness of phones.

And what's a deltic in this context? Google is trying to tell me you're a combustion engine with a triangular piston arrangement and frankly that makes as much sense as sticking a rubber glove on an eel.

Re:POINTLESS

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm perfectly fine with the operators not having a say anymore, because when they did have a say, everyone but the operators were being screwed.

They can sit down for a while, and let the manufacturers have a turn. The entire world will be better off.

(posting anon to not take away well-deserved moderation)

Deja Vu

[Haedrian]

I remember something like this in the past.

We have sim cards which work with pretty much everything, EXCEPT the iPhone. So the solution was either to buy a smaller sim or just grab a pair of scissors and remove some of the plastic yourself, while the career that had exclusivity was heavily advertising that it has these new high-tech simcards.

I'm sure its not because we're running out of space. At all. Its for exclusivity.

Re:Deja Vu

[ProfessionalCookie]

Have you seen the size of the iPhone 4's circuit board? It's tiny and border to border filled efficiently with few components. The sim slot uses a huge percentage of space. http://news.cnet.com/i/tim//2010/06/22/apple-iphone-4-logic-board.jpg

We need our own standard

[Der Huhn Teufel]

So we can make more money off of it.

Re:We need our own standard

[meist3r]

Sign up now for the iSIM 4GB, store more contacts than ever. Access 4G networks. Only 99.99$/month on top of your old plan.

Maybe they can fit more SIMs

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a thought, maybe for someone who travels internationally, I'd like to be able to use multiple sim cards than have to swap them every time I get off the airport. It's a pain in the ass when you're flying between 2 different countries for business on a almost bi weekly basis and have to remove the damn battery cover to get at the sim cards on most phones.

Re:Maybe they can fit more SIMs

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to deal extreme and buy a dual SIM card phone?

Re:Maybe they can fit more SIMs

[mspohr]

There are lots of phones which can hold 2 SIMs. You won't find them at the telecom carrier stores but they are readily available at most third party stores (and, of course, online).

I bought one of these for travel. Works great. You can have either (or both) SIM card(s) active so you can make and receive calls on both lines.

Anyone else think they just want in on the design?

[meist3r]

To me that kinda sounds like they're just pushing for a new SIM form factor so they can have a say in designing the internals of the new card. The first thing I thought was "hey brilliant now we can store user location data on an encrypted part of the SIM card that no user has access to". I'd also think they would probably introduce some kind of proprietary technology or design dogma that no other manufacturer can live up to or integrate without actually asking Apple for permission or license (think ultra-flat SIM holder). Creating in turn an Apple specific type of SIM-card to further lock down market segments. Maybe I'm just paranoid but then again that is why I don't own any of their products.

Human CENTiPAD

[Anonymous Coward]

Human CENTiPAD: Bing!

How to design junk

[vijayiyer]

Think about what you would have if you used the standard SIM, a regular (full size) SD card slot (or, for that matter, Compact Flash), removable batteries in a AA form factor, a mini (not micro) USB connector, and you designed a phone.
You would have Junk.
Of course, the right solution is to do away with SIM itself, but the carriers are too scared of that.

Re:How to design junk

[_merlin]

Actually the carriers would be very happy to do away with the SIM. That would make it harder to switch carriers, so they would get the customer lock-in they crave. It's only EU competition laws that force them to allow swappable SIMs.

Re:How to design junk

[Anonymous Coward]

you would have a gameboy with a phone, at least the gameboy used firewire

Re:Anyone else think they just want in on the desi

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd be amazed at things ordinary SIM card can hold.

I'm not too pleased with this

[mysidia]

but this is one race to the bottom I'm pleased with.

More SIM card designs = more times you will have to replace your SIM card = more money spent.

Smaller SIM cards are also easier to lose, hard to keep a handle on, when you use your SIM with multiple phones

Personally, I think the existence of a separate SIM card tech is a bug. SIM cards should be replaced with SD and MMC memory technology, with a standard format, subscriber data protected by the DRM feature of the cards, and digitally signed with the subscriber block and SD card serial number.

Re:I'm not too pleased with this

[RussR42]

but this is one race to the bottom I'm pleased with.

More SIM card designs = more times you will have to replace your SIM card = more money spent.

Smaller SIM cards are also easier to lose, hard to keep a handle on, when you use your SIM with multiple phones

Don't forget us poor world travelers who will get screwed when suddenly we have to find the correct sim card size to get our phones to work locally.

Re:I'm not too pleased with this

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you want to go to the expense of of flash memory? SIM cards contain very little in the way of data, the specification allows 100 phone numbers, which network and a network identifier. Its not a memory size issue, Apple are claiming the form factor is too big, there are a number of shrunk SIM card designs (

SIM cards came in to existence because every phone manufacturer set their phone up to work in some unique way, it meant customers couldn't move their phone from one network to another and the network and was having to eat additional costs when they modified each phone to work on their network. So the EU came up with the GSM standard a nice simple standard which is used by most of the world. It's why I'm against a software SIM card, because it defeats the point of a SIM card. Recently I ported my number from O2 to Vodaphone, I was told that on the specified day my O2 connection would die and and Vodaphone SIM would then need restarting to acquire the new number. So I chucked my O2 SIM card in my new phone and when the phone lost its network connection I switch the SIM cards and found myself on the Vodaphone network with my new number. Explain how that will be done as easily with software SIM cards.

Apple already use the microSIM format for the iPad (which is a SIM card without any of the plastic surround) considering the size of the device I think the only reason they did this was to make it hard to go from one network to another and hard to transfer your Apple product SIM in to another product. I'm betting Apple are proposing this to help further lock people in to their devices. It's like the EU requirement that all phones should be chargable by microUSB, all other phone manufacturers now use microUSB for data and charging except Apple who had an extra cable which lets you do that.

Re:I'm not too pleased with this

[VortexCortex]

Personally, I think the existence of a separate SIM card tech is a bug. SIM cards should be replaced with SD and MMC memory technology, with a standard format, subscriber data protected by the DRM feature of the cards, and digitally signed with the subscriber block and SD card serial number.

Well, I'd like the opposite. Give me an open API that allows me to enter my account credentials into any/multiple capable devices so that I can use whatever mobile hardware I want on my plan, including a stationary antenna connected to my computer.

Maybe it's just me, but there's just something offensive about knowing that something nifty would be possible, if not for the Digital Restriction Managers.

Re:I'm not too pleased with this

[Chuck Chunder]

More SIM card designs = more times you will have to replace your SIM card = more money spent.

Really? Any time I've needed a new SIM for a phone (and even when I haven't) my carrier has always just given me one. A friend upgraded to an iPhone 4 the other day and just popped into one of his providers stores and was simply given a new SIM.

Re:I'm not too pleased with this

[mysidia]

Really? Any time I've needed a new SIM for a phone (and even when I haven't) my carrier has always just given me one. A friend upgraded to an iPhone 4 the other day and just popped into one of his providers stores and was simply given a new SIM.

That's very interesting.... I wonder if that means Ma-Bell reversed the policy, of charging an approximate $50 fee if you ever need a new SIM. Or maybe that's just a penalty for people whose SIMs stopped working

Re:I'm not too pleased with this

[Chuck Chunder]

That's very interesting.... I wonder if that means Ma-Bell reversed the policy, of charging an approximate $50 fee if you ever need a new SIM.

It means I don't live in the US. Sounds like you should be upset at your telcos, not Apple.

Re:I'm not too pleased with this

[hedwards]

The one time I needed a new one, which replaced the previously worn out one, AT&T just gave me a new one. The only questions they asked were to make sure I was authorized on that account.

Re:I'm not too pleased with this

[mysidia]

Well, I'd like the opposite. Give me an open API that allows me to enter my account credentials into any/multiple capable devices so that I can use whatever mobile hardware I want on my plan, including a stationary antenna connected to my computer.

There are two problems with that:
(1) It would mean your credentials could be cloned. SIM cards are hardware crypto devices, and can contain a PIN number to activate the device. One of the reason SIM cards were designed is to prevent cloning or theft of the SIM card data by someone other than the subscriber.
If you want to use other devices, you just move the SIM card to the other device. For example, you move the SIM card from your USB mobile broadband modem to the antenna attached to your computer.

(2) Allowing the user access to credentials as 'data' would create a problem, of a possibility of theft of service and unfair extra usage of limited wireless sessions through multiple simultaneous use of the same credentials on multiple devices; for example, an antenna on your computer, at the same time as you're talking on a cell phone; a computer and an iPad at the same time, etc.

(3) Since the SIM card is a hardware token, possession is a sufficiently secure form of identity to secure transactions and sensitive information. Software-based/stored credentials are easily accidentally lost in various situations; for example, selling your old phone, but forgetting to purge its credentials.

You won't "forget" to remove the old SIM card, because you need it to activate the new device.

Re:I'm not too pleased with this

[Cimexus]

$50?!

My carrier replaces SIMs, nominally, for $2. But in reality if you go in and say "this one's broken", or "I need to swap this regular SIM for a microSIM", they'll just give you one for free. It's a tiny piece of plastic and metal that costs about 2 cents to manufacture, for God's sake!

Note: I don't live in the US.

MicroSIM?

[WiiVault]

I assume your not trying to call the standardized MicroSIM an evil plot by Apple. Sometimes I wonder why some folks can't just be happy criticizing Apple for all the real crap they do and must instead make up absurd new conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact.

Re:MicroSIM?

[mellon]

I don't really care whether it's an evil plot or not. I don't care whether it's a "standard" or not. The only cell phone manufacturer that I know of that uses MicroSIMs is Apple. This means that when you go to buy a MicroSIM, they don't have it. This is a royal PITA. It's not a question of criticizing Apple; it's a question of convenience. When I'm traveling, I want to be able to buy a SIM and put it in my phone, not buy a SIM, spent 20 minutes with my swiss army knife cutting it down and shaving it to a final fit, and then maybe discover that it doesn't work anyway and not be able to return it.

Re:MicroSIM?

[WiiVault]

I don't really care whether it's an evil plot or not. I don't care whether it's a "standard" or not. The only cell phone manufacturer that I know of that uses MicroSIMs is Apple. This means that when you go to buy a MicroSIM, they don't have it. This is a royal PITA.

Seems fair to me, I've personally never used a microsim, but I can see the issue presented by you. Obviously adapters only work one way too which makes your scenario a pain indeed. My post wasn't addressing the potential benefits or issues with SIM vs. MicroSIM, I just wanted to dispel any conspiracy conceptions that microSIM was some sort of Apple controlled walled-garden style lock-in.

Re:MicroSIM?

[thegarbz]

Hardly accusing apple of a conspiracy. You're right MicroSIM is a standard. But it's also a standard that is almost exclusively used by Apple. There are many smaller lighter and equally powerful smartphones on the market, yet only apple has a problem with the size of it's already smaller than everyone else's SIMcard?

Please.

Apple are bitchy because they don't allow removable covers on their phones which would allow them to place the SIM slot on the motherboard which would dramatically cut the footprint of the socket. Seriously have a look at the teardown of the iPhone4 vs any other phone to see how much more space Apple's already smaller MicroSIM implementation takes than a normal SIM.

But really let them do what they want. As long as I can call up my carrier and ask for a new SIM when needed it doesn't concern me.

Re:MicroSIM?

[Chuck Chunder]

Yes, we mustn't have progress and should all be using credit card sized sims like in the good old days.

Re:MicroSIM?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is point past which miniaturisation becomes bad not good. Have a look at your fingers, have you noticed them getting any smaller any time recently? You may not, but I want a SIM card I can swap between phones without having to use a special tool for the purpose.

Re:MicroSIM?

[multipartmixed]

The only cell phone manufacturer that I know of that uses MicroSIMs is Apple.

Back in the day, the only computer manufacturer that I knew of that used USB ports was Apple.

Are you still using a serial mouse with a DB-25 connector?

Re:MicroSIM?

[hedwards]

But, this isn't the old days, and most handset manufacturers seem to be able to handle the regular SIMs just fine, you know the ones that approximately the same size as an SD card. So, going to micro SD might plausibly have some benefit, but at this point there's no legitimate reason for going any smaller since the real thing taking up all the space is electronics and battery, eliminating the SIM entirely just isn't going to save enough space to make creating a new format worthwhile.

Re:MicroSIM?

[tlhIngan]

I thought microSIMs were Apple-only, until I ran into a Chinese smartphone that used it (and ran Android - AOSP).

We had to do some development work on it that involved actually having to solder wires to the phone to a standard SIM socket so our SIM tester could use it.

And why are people complaining about handling these SIM cards? The average user may really only handle their phone twice - the first time to install it after buying the phone, and second to remove it for their new phone. Are people really handling it like a daily use item like the microSD cards?

And interestingly, it seems the iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4 are one of the very few phones to implement "SIM Hot Swap" - if you notice most phones, the SIM is only accessible if you remove the battery. The reason for this is so the phone will be off when the SIM is removed. ETSI actually has a hot-swap spec so you could remove the SIM while the phone is on, and insert a new one and have it automatically reattach as the new SIM. It's a pile of tests for a very minimal feature, so 99.999% of cellphones don't implement it. The iPhone/iPhone 3G don't (they have a switch that hard-powers off the phone).

It's a difficult problem because it requires reinitializing the telephony stack - not easy.

Re:MicroSIM?

[cbope]

The credit card size has not been widely used in mobile phones since the mid-90's or so. Are you trying to imply that the most popular mini-SIM size is too large for a modern mobile phone? Practically every other component in a mobile phone is many times larger than the mini-SIM format, think batteries, LCD display, keypad, etc.

There is no real need for a smaller SIM standard, other than planned obsolescence by forcing people to buy new phones if the new card format is not backwards compatible.

Re:MicroSIM?

[qubezz]

Apple first with USB? PCs had them a year before the iMac. Plus back in the day, the only portable music player that would dare use firewire was the iPod.

Apple Computer is the new Sony for proprietary f-you lock-in.

Are you still using your Apple Bus Mouse with an ADB connector?

Re:MicroSIM?

[rylin]

The iMac was the first computer with USB as the only peripheral connector- i.e., no serial port, no parallel port et.c.
The difference between portable music players back in the day was that one took two seconds to transfer a song, others took around a minute.

Which would you prefer?

Re:MicroSIM?

[necro81]

The only difference between a standard-sized SIM and microSIM is the amount of plastic put around the actual chip. It is straightforward to slice and dice a standard SIM down to micro-SIM. It's not like the carrier is going to ask for it back. Maybe I would find it a pain in the ass if I were doing it every time I went on a business trip, but in that case I would probably have a multiple-SIM world phone (probably a blackberry) anyway.

Re:MicroSIM?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least in Germany, most carriers give you a SIM that sits in a credit card sized plastic card. It has perforations at SIM and MicroSIM sizes, making this a non-issue.

Re:MicroSIM?

[Anonymous Coward]

How is something that I need tweezers to remove progress? A credit-card sized SIM would be great. I could pull it out of my iPhone and stick it into my computer and then back again when I'm done browsing the Internet on a big screen without a second thought. As opposed to Apple: take off faceplate, take out SIM, etc. It's a PITA.

Also, they could sell 1GB data SIMs in the convenience store that you could stick in your netbook and be good to go. That would be progress. Not multiple incompatible standards.

Re:MicroSIM?

[Anonymous Coward]

What you need is a paper template and scissors, then cutting the SIM to microSIM size would only take 1 minute rather than 20.

Come on people what about other uses?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello, cant anyone imagine a use for a small sim card in a device other than a phone or tablet?

Re:Come on people what about other uses?

[maxwell demon]

Surf stick?

cellular ubiquity

[wfmcwalter]

They're not thinking about this for what we're currently call a "phone". They're looking at very small form factor devices which keep their data in the cloud, are configured by another (arbitrary) device which talks to the same cloud, and which make either sporadic or continual data connections with whatever available networks they find, to keep up to date. Imagine very small devices (wristwatches, eyeglasses, earplugs) with 802.11/UMTS/WiMAX radios (which use a mini-sim to identify themselves to whichever network they encounter). And they're thinking about these things as universal identifiers and payment tokens.

Right now you go running with an iPod. Instead you'll have a iPlug, a pair of little in-ear headphones, but with no cable and nothing strapped to your arm. You set up your music program on a tablet, and it seamlessly syncs. You run further than you'd expected, so the iPlug connects to the network and downloads more music. Miles from home your knee gives out. You touch the iPlug and say "taxi". A taxi comes (sent by Apple to the location the iPlug knew; Apple gets a dollar from the taxi fare, which you pay using the iPlug).

You have a iSim unit in your iWatch. You're thirsty, so you touch the watch and say "coffee shop". The watch face shows an arrow to a nearby one, and the distance, and walks you there. Apple gets a dollar. You buy a drink with the iSIM as a payment token (Apple gets 30 cents) and sit down at a table. The table's surface is an active display; it talks to your iWatch and opens a connection to your account in the iCloud. Your personal news appears, your emails, your documents. You do some work, browse some stuff, and when you're done you stand up and the table blinks off. Things will be as you left them when you next peer with an active display - at home, in the car, on the train, at the office, on the beach.

All of this stuff has been done, in various disconnected ways, already. You can pay for stuff with your phone, in some places. Most Europeans (well, Brits at least) have smart cards in their credit cards. You could hotdesk 10 years ago with a Sunray (kinda). You can unlock doors with a Dallas button token. Having super-cheap super-light totally ubiquitous networking makes the whole thing join up into a compelling, powerful, system.

You'll never be alone again.

Re:cellular ubiquity

[mirix]

Some neat, and somewhat scary ideas, but I still don't see it. Anything with a wireless modem sucks down juice, so they'll need a battery much larger than a microSIM, rendering the whole argument rather pointless. At least until we get miracle batteries, or resurrect Tesla and get him working on that wireless power and perpetual motion stuff.

Re:cellular ubiquity

[l3v1]

Exactly what I was thinking when I read the earplugs with a SIM in them lines above. Unless the plug is wired to your brain and you supply it with electricity and the antenna runs through your skull, an earplug as a gsm/3g/etc. connected smart device is fairly out of question for a very long while. Wrist-devices - with acceptable size and weight which is very important issue here - are still far off because of current battery tech (not talking about theretical, but real working produced). Well, they might really believe inthe future and hope that Apple will still be here when such tech becomes available (if ever).

Re:cellular ubiquity

[MrNiCeGUi]

Wristwatch cell phones already exist, and some of them are even dual SIM. They are pretty bulky, similar in a way with sports watches that have GPS, pedometers, heart monitors and other stuff, but most of the bulk is the battery. They last about a day, which is pretty normal for a phone, but abysmal for a watch. They may not have acceptable size and weight for you or me, but it's clear they already have their buyers. For what it's worth, i have seen normal watches that are bulkier than the cell phone ones.

Re:cellular ubiquity

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

IOW those watches work longer than the old LED watches did when you "watched" them a lot.

Re:cellular ubiquity

[anonymov]

A day is waaaaaay to low for a cell phone, especially with this, as they are seemingly targeted for active/sporty/outdoors people. Good phones have standby times in 500-700 hours range.

Smaller is better...

[Anonymous Coward]

For small form factor devices, like the iPod nano, jewelry, earpiece, whatever.
And for certain types of embeddable devices.
Also, the device might not be a phone, but e.g. a SIMd add-in to a laptop or iPad which provides interchangeable LTE.
Just don't sneeze :-)

Patent

[Anonymous Coward]

And when everyone has one, they pull out their patent on the sim and sue everyone out of business.

I doubt it has anything to do with size ...

[giorgist]

The current two sizes are identical in wiring.

If Apple can force a new format, they can implement new features, maybe good (ie flash memory, multiple sims in one) or bad ... DRM and I don't know what else

Re:I doubt it has anything to do with size ...

[txoof]

Among other reasons such as wasted space with the sim-tray hardware, I suspect this has something to do with the sim card unlockers that slide into the sim card tray along with a standard sim card. A smaller sim foot print would make such devices much harder to engineer.

"smaller"?

[JackSpratts]

sure apple. i lol'd.

It's likely that this is to support multiple SIMs

[Anonymous Coward]

To me this implies the capability for the phone to hold multiple SIMs, which would be a boon to those of us who travel internationally.

Funny you should say "desire"

[LongearedBat]

The HTC Desire HD is almost a little too big. But yes, you are quite right: it's very nice having such a big screen on a PDA phone. :)

Maybe thickness is not it

[sonamchauhan]

Maybe apple is designing devices that need a smaller surface area for the card. Like a phone in a stylus that captures conversations with a microphone array, handwriting with a gyroscope and document content with a stereo camera and projected infrared grid.

IPen anyone?

"I'm pleased with"

[l3v1]

but this is one race to the bottom I'm pleased with.

Bad: Well, I'm not. It disturbingly seems they want to get to the SIM being integrated into the board, so you buy the phone/device with the contract and not the SIM, and you won't be able to change SIMs in a phone/device.

Neutral: Well, they might want to put more SIMs in a device (not just phone), but come on, most of the devices that would accomodate and be useful for such application are large enough to host multiple current size SIMs as well.

Thinking about it, I still don't really want to buy an iPad or an iPhone, so maybe I don't even care :/

Why have a physical SIM?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't the "SIM" functions reside onboard, and be configured by an encrypted, downloadable package?

smallest possible SIM card already exists

[OrangeTide]

Zero would be the smallest possible size.

Just wait ...

[garry_g]

... probably for the iphone 6 they'll propose a completely new idea of burning the SIM data directly into the phone, saving the space for the card reader alltogether, and at the same time allowing for an even better carrier-lock-in than the current solution has. Which of course means the carriers will love it. No more sim/netlock breaking possible anymore.

Hm ... Wait ... wasn't there a wireless network that already did that? ;)

Re:Just wait ...

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be a great idea, if EU regulation didn't require removable / replaceable SIMs.

What would be a better business decision for Apple: Give the carriers something they desire for reasons unfathomable, or continue selling phones on an industrialized and wealthy continent that really likes your products?

Re:Just wait ...

[redalien]

The EU regs are your friend. You take as standard than an iPhone has to be jailbroken to be useful. The SIM card is the essence of your account, having it removable separates the two so you can change them, swap with friends, move abroad and keep your phone, temporarily use them for a data device, etc.

Yet more planned obsolescence from Apple

[cbope]

Dear Apple,

If your hardware designers are too dumb or lazy to be able to accommodate the already-small size of either a standard or micro-SIM card, please go play somewhere else and stop interfering with the mobile phone market. There is a reason why SIM's are a standard size, even the micro-SIM was a stupid idea mainly pushed on us by you.

Thanks
- - -

I have multiple phones, and switch SIM cards between them. I can also go to any kiosk or corner store and buy pre-paid SIM cards. This is commonplace in Europe, where SIM cards have been used far longer than the US, we've had them in mobile phones in Finland since the early 90's. Making SIM cards smaller makes them incompatible by design with existing phones and creates a false demand for replacing perfectly good, working phones with new ones. I suppose this is part of Apple's strategy anyway, to force people to upgrade their phones yet again to support a new "standard" they create. This is nothing more than planned obsolescence.

Re:Yet more planned obsolescence from Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear cbope,

Designing components for products 24+ months away is how successful businesses operate. Without thinking a little farther in the future then next quarter's 10-Q filing causes market stagnation and terrible products, like we saw from the smartphone industry pre-2007.

I don't see a lot of people complaining about the reduction of size of other components like micro-HDMI, micro-USB, or the reduction of Type-II PCMCIA flash into SD flash.

Re:Yet more planned obsolescence from Apple

[MindCrusher]

My phone is 1 year old. Yet I use the same SIM card I used more than 10 years ago. Compatibility is a great feature and functionality should not be broken for the sake of coolness.

lock in!

[georgesdev]

the iphone 4 simcard is a problem already. Suppose you broke your phone screen and find it ridiculous to pay 700 $ or euros to get a new one.
Then you want to switch back to your old iphone 3GS before the iphone 5 comes out and your current contract ends.
Or you want to put the sim card in your company's blackberry for a while.
But it won't work because of the sim card. I know some operators will sell you a replacement sim card, but still you get the idea.
Also, when I buy a new phone, and want to have the possibility to hand the older iphone to a family member. And that's not possible ecause they don't have the right sim, even if they're with the right operator.
Frankly, I don't care at all about the few cubic milimeters that can be spared with smaller sims

Doesn't play well with others

[Anonymous Coward]

sounds like another reason not to buy an iThingy.

New form factor for smart cards introduced

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

http://www.smartcardstrends.com/det_atc.php?idu=287

ETSI project Smart Card Platform (EP SCP) at their recent plenary meeting agreed to the introduction of a new smart card, which is half the size of the existing Subscriber Identity Module (SIM) card.

Market forces are behind the decision; there are already many data-only GSM terminals on the market, many of them using the familiar PC-card form factor. However, with the development of even smaller terminals, the point may soon be reached where the plug-in card occupies too much volume in the terminal, especially in those devices whose secondary purpose will be to communicate, such as digital cameras or watches.

The work item for the so-called Third Form Factor, "3FF", was agreed, after intensive discussions, at the SCP meeting held last week in London. Historically, there are already two form factors, the full credit card-sized card and the postage stamp-sized plug-in card. The latter is the norm for GSM terminals, a market that has now seen more than 2 billion smart cards deployed.

December 8, 2003.

Huh huh. Heh heh. You said "bottom".

[Hognoxious]

this is one race to the bottom I'm pleased with

Clarify please. Is there a specific bottom that you're pleased with[1] and there's a race to it? Or are you entranced by some aspect of the competition to arrive in Assville?

[1] This is Apple, after all.

Size doesn't matter

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

This isn't really about making the SIM card smaller, it's about dropping compatibility with the ancient (early nineties!) chip on old SIM cards, with the slow interface and the small memory. Not to mention the limited security.

I want 2 SIM cards

[FunkyELF]

Please.... if you propose a new standard make it better... not just smaller.
I would love to see a single physical SIM card that is actually 2 in 1.
Then in the future, I wouldn't have to carry around my personal smartphone and my company flip phone.

Re:I want 2 SIM cards

[arekq]

If you don't want to carry multiple phones, maybe you should check out phones that take dual SIM cards.

Personally, I don't mind if they reduce the size of SIM card to similar to a MicroSD (I think it's difficult to handle them if it's smaller than that).
However, I don't really understand why we need it.
The problems I see are locked phones and ridiculous cost of SIM card (about $30 or more). Not SIM card being to big.

Not a single product; good design a la Dieter Rams

[name_already_taken]

2. Sealed batteries, smaller sim cards and the like are critical paths to Apple's future product plans.

So what sort of future product would cause a problem with current products having replaceable batteries?

It's not a single product that would be hurt by those things - it's that they are anathema to Apple's design principles.

The guiding set of principles at Apple are a constant movement towards Dieter Rams' ideals of "good design".

• Good design is innovative.
• Good design makes a product useful.
• Good design is aesthetic.
• Good design helps us to understand a product.
• Good design is unobtrusive.
• Good design is honest.
• Good design is durable.
• Good design is consequent to the last detail.
• Good design is concerned with the environment.
• Good design is as little design as possible.

Good design means eliminating parts that the user interacts with (the battery cover, physical controls, etc).

Good design requires reducing parts count where practical - the battery cover, the battery connectors, the casing a replaceable battery must have, for example. I have a first generation iPhone in my pocket which is still on its original battery, so I'm not too worried about the difficulty of replacing it. I'd rather have a physically smaller phone or a better camera in the same-size phone than a replaceable battery.

Any time a designer adds yet another button, or another removable part, they're moving away from that ideal of "good design".

Now, wether you agree with that philosophy or not is up to you and there are a wide range of products on the market if you don't - you aren't required to buy Apple products to fulfill your needs or wants. The idea that Apple can lock down the entire market is a fallacy often professed by anti-Apple trolls in these discussions.

Of course, Jonathan Ives is just copying the old Braun products

, but that's not such a bad set of products to copy.

human hand comment

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hard to believe that any phone designed for the human hand ..."

Exactly.

Imagine, if you can, a phone not designed to be used by a part of the human body that neither speaks nor listens in the narrow aural sense.

Smallest Post

[Anonymous Coward]

! .

That would indeed be great !

[DrYak]

If I want to register the same IMEI and SIM on a different network, I should be able to do that too. But because of the security implications, the SIM needs to be unique and hardware based.

Oh, boy ! That would help so much people in Europe ! Here every country has its own separate service providers, and whenever you travel to another country, you're roaming, even if both service provider somewhat belong to the same corporation.
People who travel a lot between countries (for example when living near the border) end up either having several SIMs and swapping them constantly, or even having to own several phones.

What's the point ?!?

[DrYak]

I've had enough other brand phones to see that there are better (i.e. smaller) ways to hold a SIM.

But no way to reduce the physical, internal footprint of the SIM card itself, short of eliminating all the plastic and soldering it in entirely or redesigning the packaging (which is mostly plastic and huge contacts.)

Yeah, but what's the point of it ? (Beside alienating the user and making it more difficult to swap SIM, which could seem desirable, except not from the point of view of end-users).

We're speaking about phones here, not 3/4G USB dongles.
At the end of the days, it's still a device which has to fit into the hand of its user. And a hand is only so small.
Most of the latest generation phones are already small enough, although some still use regular SIM cards.

Unless they're dreaming to launch some new "iPhone Nano Shuffle" serie of devices. Like phones in "Lt. Uhura" ear-piece form factor, or in watches.
Although these could still accommodate the current Micro-SIM size. You'd probably need a Jewerly form factor to need diminutive SIM cards...

Why do we need SIM cards anyway?

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

This might be a dumb question, but why do we need SIM cards anyway?

I'd like to be able to sign up for accounts with different network providers and be able to choose which I want to use, when I want to use them.

I live in Europe you insensitive clod !

[DrYak]

And why are people complaining about handling these SIM cards? The average user may really only handle their phone twice - the first time to install it after buying the phone, and second to remove it for their new phone. Are people really handling it like a daily use item like the microSD cards?

Welcome in Europe, man. Where every single country has its very own set of separate service providers. And even if lots of them belong to the same few mega-corps behind the scene, it's still considered roaming when you move from one country to another.
If you move a little bit around, or if you study abroad, or whatever, you end up owning several SIM cards and often swapping them around.

The ordinary SIM card is easy enough to swap, while at the same time being small enough to fit into any form factor design for a human hand. Just no fucking need to move to a smaller form factor.
It only alienates the users of any land whose territory is smaller than the USA and who need to switch SIMs when moving around. And doesn't serve any really useful purpose...

It's a difficult problem because it requires reinitializing the telephony stack - not easy.

Well, I can change SIMs on my Palm without switching it off. It's not designed for, but battery doesn't block access to the SIM and restarting the OS is all it takes to switch the SIM even on a phone not designed for it.
Probably won't be that difficult to make the stack and corresponding service restart each the time a phone is switched to/from airplane mode.