Major Release of Miro Aims to Compete With iTunes

ravrore writes "Miro 4 was released today, a major update to the popular multi-platform FOSS video player. The new version adds music support, local network stream and transfer, music purchasing, and Android syncing. Miro is positioning itself as the open iTunes for Android users. 'We believe the open media world can be just as integrated and usable as the closed, top-down, DRM'ed systems of companies like Apple. And we want to prove it,' says Nicholas Reville, Executive Director of Participatory Culture Foundation, which creates Miro." It looks like the project still has a few rough edges, but is definitely getting there.

Comments

"Open Media"

[elrous0]

FOSS-speak: "Open media"

Translation: We've got public domain crap, idiots talking to their webcams, sucky indie bands who need to practice more and promote less, and that's about it--unless you want to pirate.

Seriously, the summary is trying to promote this as an iTunes competitor? Really? I hate Apple crap, and even *I* know that iTunes is way better than this.

Okay, you can all mod me down now for daring to criticize an open-source project. You know you want to.

Re:"Open Media"

[iluvcapra]

No you're fine. Everybody basically acknowledges this, but you're skipping all the good closed media Miro will be selling too: the Miro will let you buy from the Amazon MP3 store, so there will be a good selection of DRM-free music available on the platform, too.

Re:"Open Media"

[Anonymous Coward]

For those of us who use iTunes (or similar) to manage and synchronize our music library but seldom or never to purchase music... who cares what they have available for sale or streaming?

Re:"Open Media"

[Anonymous Coward]

and amazon music store.....

Re:"Open Media"

[Duradin]

Apple will let you buy from Amazon as well.

Re:"Open Media"

[kellyb9]

I think you're missing the point here. I don't think the point is really about DRM or openness. I think the major point is Android. I buy my music off of Amazon, but it would be nice to have a way of syncing my device the same way iPhone users do. I know there are a few applications out there to do it, but like you already pointed out, none of them are nearly as polished as iTunes. Anything close and I'll probably give their tool a shot.

Re:"Open Media"

[Bryan3000000]

Apple will let you buy from Amazon as well.

But iTunes will not let you sync to Android. Hence the summary.

Re:"Open Media"

[Anonymous Coward]

How comes everytime some idiot comes, talks a lot of crap and ends with something like "but hey, that's just my opinion mod me down if you want to!" it gets actually moded up?

The thing uses Amazon as app and music store, so you can buy any popular-comercial shit you want, not just indie bands or crappy apps.

Re:"Open Media"

[ravrore]

Miro has Amazon MP3 store built in, so it has the same content access as iTunes and is has things like Android syncing, video conversion, and local network file transferring that iTunes doesn't do.

Re:"Open Media"

[ravrore]

Exactly. Android is going to be 50% of smartphones soon and there's no iTunes equivalent for it, until Miro. Plus Miro works on Windows, Mac, and Linux.

Re:"Open Media"

[605dave]

How do you know within an day of release that iTunes is way better? Have you tried Miro? Have you been trying the betas? Just curious where your strong opinion comes from.

Re:"Open Media"

[cyberfin]

When the article mentions open media, it refers to it regarding integration and usability, not the quality of U2 vs. an indie band. And as some have mentioned, as long as your media is DRM free, you can use it to sync your libraries (even, sigh, Lady Gaga).

Re:"Open Media"

[jo_ham]

Sure it will, if you use something like MarkSpace's Missing Sync:

http://www.markspace.com/products/android/missing-sync-android.html

The sync API for iTunes is documented and available to anyone who wants to write something that works with it. What you can't do (and what Apple somehow turned into the bad guy for stamping on) is pretend to be an iPod by spoofing Apple's USB vendor ID so you can be super lazy and not write an interface to iTunes' own sync system.

Missing Sync isn't free, but the sync API (certainly in OS X) is open and documented so you can write your own if you want to.

Re:"Open Media"

[drb226]

unless you want to pirate

Miro makes it quite easy to torrent music/vids right into your library...don't underestimate this angle, although it's not exactly the kind of thing Miro is going to go around announcing publicly, for obvious reasons.

Re:"Open Media"

[h4rr4r]

Mount as USB mass storage device and drag and drop. Much easier than iTunes.

Re:"Open Media"

[E IS mC(Square)]

You may very well criticize any open source project, but you lose all the credibility by saying itune is any good.

The worst piece of crap since real media player.

Re:"Open Media"

[h4rr4r]

Even better is that it will accept rss feeds that contain said torrents. At least it did years ago when I used it.

Re:"Open Media"

[jedidiah]

There's also another name for this sort of thing: Podcast.

Isn't "podcast management" supposed to be one of those things that Apple products are hyped for?

Re:"Open Media"

[LoganDzwon]

I don't think you have a misunderstanding of the meaning of the world "easier."

Re:"Open Media"

[An Onerous Coward]

This is Slashdot. Strong opinions are their own justification.

Re:"Open Media"

[perryizgr8]

and why the fuck is miro trying to look exactly like itunes?? they won't bring anything new to the table, just try to clone the best thing available right now. imo, vlc has got it right. i don't need all the sucky media library crap, my file manager handles searches very well and vlc supports playlists.

Re:"Open Media"

[Risen888]

FOSS-speak: "Open media"

Translation: We've got public domain crap, idiots talking to their webcams, sucky indie bands who need to practice more and promote less, and that's about it--unless you want to pirate.

Shows what you know. Almost without exception, all of the new music that I've really gotten into in the last couple of years has been CC licensed. Hell, Chuck D is putting stuff out under CC these days. I listen to podcasts twenty times more than I listen to the radio. They hooked me with free, they kept me because it's generally better than the commercial alternatives.

Is that going to convince someone's kid sister who only listens to the pop station and doesn't have the attention span to listen to any spoken word longer than a 30 second commercial? No. Do I give a shit? No. I will continue to get more out of my entertainment budget (in terms of both money and time) than they do and be perfectly happy with that.

So for all that, would I call Miro an "iTunes competitor?" Nah. iTunes never had a chance with me in the first place. Get with the times.

Re:"Open Media"

[h4rr4r]

I don't think I do either. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Re:"Open Media"

[Anonymous Coward]

FOSS-speak: "Open media"

Translation: We've got public domain crap, idiots talking to their webcams, sucky indie bands who need to practice more and promote less, and that's about it--unless you want to pirate.

I have found a large number of great (electronic) albums on www.Jamendo.com - these are not Public Domain but are released under a Creative Commons license.

Pirating seems to be the only other option, given that even something like this 1902 (!) recording, recorded almost 110 years ago, on the National Jukebox is somehow still under copyright in the United States:

Rights & Access

This recording is protected by state copyright laws in the United States. The Library of Congress has obtained a license from rights holders to offer it as streamed audio only. Downloading is not permitted. The authorization of rights holders of the recording is required in order to obtain a copy of the recording. Contact jukebox@loc.gov for more information.

Re:"Open Media"

[Pieroxy]

How comes everytime some idiot comes, talks a lot of crap and ends with something like "but hey, that's just my opinion mod me down if you want to!" it gets actually moded up?

You know that sometimes they get modded down? But how would you know? They are modded down, so probably below your threshold.

Re:"Open Media"

[Teknikal69]

I've been using miro a while mainly for video podcasts which it is very good for and I don't like the sound of it copying itunes myself. I have itunes on another computer solely for my ipod and both it and it's accompanying bonjour are a horrible software.

I guess the simplest thing I can do is just not update it again I know this is an extreme reaction but I've been using it on my netbook and don't like the sound of more bloat I just don't need it.

Re:"Open Media"

[dogmatixpsych]

iTunes has its faults but it's really quite good for what it can do. I think Apple needs to completely rework it from the ground up but it's certainly not "crap." It is better in OS X than Windows though; it's frustrating in Windows at times but then again, so is Windows!

Re:"Open Media"

[flimflammer]

Any time someone praises iTunes, it is no doubt for the selection it offers, not the software itself. In the context of his comment, he was clearly referring to the former.

Re:"Open Media"

[Anonymous Coward]

iTunes on the PC is a useless piece of junk. You can use something like foobar2000 with a lot less hassle and many more features.

Re:"Open Media"

[Threni]

> iTunes has its faults
> it's really quite good
> Apple needs to completely rework it from the ground up
> it's certainly not "crap."

Are you by any chance familiar with `multiple personality disorder`?

Re:"Open Media"

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha ha! You're poor and have to settle for third-rate things. If you are a smartphone user I bet you have an android device.

Enjoy your ramen and substandard electronics

Re:"Open Media"

[Draek]

In theory, you'd be right. In theory. You see, in theory the big labels would hire the best bands out there, give them the best resources available so they can do the best work they can, while the indies only have lower prices to compensate for their lack of talent and resources.

However, what happens in *practice* is that the big labels hire whatever's more marketable (read: a young, attractive singer), then hire an engineer that destroys whatever semblance of music was there by making everything LOUD while the indies continue making actual music, many of which had more musical talent than the marketable hires even before they were hired so the end result is that the indie album produced on a shoestring budget ends up being a hundred times more pleasant than the LOUD trash of the big labels.

It's a pity though, as the best non-classical album I've ever heard was from a professional sound engineer making rock albums for pleasure. Makes one wonder how much better the labels' music would be if they didn't cripple themselves at every step of the way.

Re:"Open Media"

[dogmatixpsych]

It's called dissociative personality disorder, by the way. Anyway, just because I like iTunes doesn't mean I can't think it needs an overhaul. I don't hold to the adage, "If it's not broke, don't fix it" for technology. I think we should make changes and try new things just because we can (again, where technology is concerned). That's one major way progress is made. It's like going from horses and carriages to cars - horses worked well, carriages worked well, but that doesn't mean just because you liked them, you couldn't wish for a car. Just because X is really good doesn't mean we can't remake X and make it better. That's all I was saying. No multiple personalities here.

Re:"Open Media"

[treeves]

Very funny. Well played, sir.

Re:"Open Media"

[macron1]

No iTunes equivalent for Android? http://www.doubletwist.com/ has been around for a good while now, I'd say it fits that description...

Re:"Open Media"

[pandrijeczko]

I feel sorry for you. Really.

I think anyone that attacks a piece of software for being open and free would probably cut off his/her nose to spite his face.

A constructive, intelligent person would go give a piece of free software a try since there is little to lose in doing that - at which point that same constructive, intelligent person would send some feedback to the developers of that software as to why he/she doesn't feel it provides him/her with what's required.

A troll spews out opinions based on hearsay while clearly demonstrating little actual subject-matter knowledge of what is being discussed.

Clearly, you are in the latter category.

Re:"Open Media"

[Anonymous Coward]

On top of that, the player is shit. I've yet to see any music player app that even comes close to offering the small footprint and feature set of foobar2000.

Re:"Open Media"

[brantondaveperson]

That's not really syncing though, is it? Syncing is supposed to be a bit more automatic than that...

Re:"Open Media"

[vegiVamp]

open (media world), not (open media) world.

Re:"Open Media"

[Anonymous Coward]

For me, Miro doesn't replace iTunes, it replaces television and radio. I've been using Miro for a few years now, listening to and watching podcasts. Lots of great programs are available free online from broadcasters, and Miro means that I can follow them on my own schedule.

Bloggingheads.tv is particularly good

Re:"Open Media"

[nobodie]

Been using Miro for years (since the days of the "Democracy Player" anyway) and obviously retardo parent has never used it. I will not compare it to iTunes, totally unfair because I have never used iTunes. From what I hear it is rather sucky, but who knows. Obviously the beloved parent is some other kind of fanboi, or maybe just a hateboi, a free lance hater of anything people actually care something about. I've heard there are some of these types in the wild.

Miro is good, works fine for my limited purposes, happy for them and for the people who will find it now and find out how nice it is.

Re:"Open Media"

[elrous0]

I feel equally sorry for anyone who promotes a piece of software just because it's FOSS.

This article was little more than a slashvertisement for a piece of software whose only merit is that it's FOSS. And it's full of a bunch of laughable hyperbole about it being some iTunes-killer to boot.

Re:"Open Media"

[pandrijeczko]

For your information, I'm mostly a Linux/FOSS user but keep XP around for gaming a few killer applications I cannot do without - in all cases, I have purchased commercial software and have no issue with doing that if the quality is high enough.

In broader terms, this means that I no longer use cracked or pirated software because unless I really am prepared to splash out for a piece of commercial software, then I just use the best FOSS alternative. This has meant that I no longer get any viruses or malware on my XP installations and makes me a lot happier about using both Windows and the software I run on it.

I do own a freebie iPod Touch that the missus gave me when she upgraded to an iPhone. It's a reasonably nice gadget but I find iTunes bloated, locked down and totally unintuitive. Fortunately, MediaMonkey on Windows works reasonably well sync-ing my music collection to the Touch (I do not and will not pay for downloadable music, I buy CDs and rip them myself) and only have an iTunes account because I *MUST* have one to put any additional applications on the Touch.

Otherwise, I think Banshee on Linux is about the best media player & organiser that I've come across - though due to Apple's lock-in, it doesn't work with the Touch, only with the "lesser" iPods.

I used Miro a while ago, probably around Version 2, and it looked very promising. I will try Version 4 because the worst thing that can happen is I just waste a bit of my time to discover I don't like it after all - but I do know that it is far more intuitive than iTunes is, so that's a good start in my book.

Why have I never heard of Versions 1-3?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did they skip straight to 4 to try to gain some cred with the "I don't use versions 1 and 2" crowd?

Re:Why have I never heard of Versions 1-3?

[605dave]

No. The app was originally called Democracy Player, the name later changed to Miro.

Re:Why have I never heard of Versions 1-3?

[tripleevenfall]

I see even they are on the "Democracy is over" bandwagon...

40 MB installer? no thx

[Anonymous Coward]

Bloat is the reason I dropped iTunes. I will stick to Vox and mplayer.

Linux version still at 3.5

[Anonymous Coward]

I was disappointed to see that the Linux version isn't yet at 4.0, and that the link to the 4.0 RC2 version for Linux mentioned at http://blog.getmiro.com/2011/05/miro-4-release-candidate-2/ is broken.

Re:Linux version still at 3.5

[Anonymous Coward]

I was disappointed

You use Linux. Disappointment is your m.o.

Re:Linux version still at 3.5

[pandrijeczko]

Because I use Linux, I know Linux well.

Because I know Linux well, I have a well-paid consultancy job supporting systems that run it.

Nope, still can't see this "disappointment" you mentioned, though I will keep looking for it & let you know if & when I find it.

Another Open Sores FAIL

[Anonymous Coward]

Open sores *SUCKS*. There does not exist a single open sores program that is in ANY WAY better than its closed source counterpart. Linux? SUCKS compared to OS X and Windows 7. Firefox? CRAP compared to Chrome and IE 9. This "Miro" app? GARBAGE compared to iTunes and even Winamp. I dont understand why the idea of open sores is even relevant any more. Not a single person I know in high tech uses anything open sores any more. Without exception once you try the popular (and hugely SMUG) open sores software, you always GLADLY end up paying the asking price for properly written closed source competitor.

Re:Another Open Sores FAIL

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, open sores exists for chin beards who want to make their company web site or a 1337 4 table database.The real world is over it.

Re:Another Open Sores FAIL

[Anonymous Coward]

Chrome = Chromium = Open source. Also, I haven't purchased any close source stuff for a while. You are more than welcome to your opinion. The cool thing about Open Source is that it permits people to have a choice. It really doesn't matter whether it's good or bad, what matters is that it is improving and that it permits the user to decide what they do and don't run. Competition is a very good thing.

Re:Another Open Sores FAIL

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck OS X and Windows 7, we all know they use open sores BSD shit!

Re:Another Open Sores FAIL

[pandrijeczko]

Not a single person I know in high tech uses anything open sores any more.

Ah! Yes, I see the problem now and I can help you with this.

Because those high tech users don't use Open Source, they won't be using the TCP/IP stack. Consequently, they won't be able to connect to the Internet and therefore won't be able to use all those communications tools that would allow you to get to know them.

Fixed it for you now, and have great fun making your first new friends!

A few rough edges

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks like the project still has a few rough edges, but is definitely getting there.

Still trying to figure out why it is acceptable for an FOSS product that aims to compete with iTunes to have "a few rough edges". We expect shit like this from commercial software makers because they are trapped in this 'launch now and patch' later mentality. But you're not the first one to market with media players, so you're not trying to get that early grab at mindshare, and obviously you're not interested in selling the software - so what's the excuse for Miro?

I would think that if you want to prove Miro can be better than iTunes, you would start by actually releasing a better product. And by that, I mean one that isn't broken and doesn't come with a promise for improvements later.

Re:A few rough edges

[GeorgeMonroy]

I agree. I feel that just because it is open source we are expected to praise it. The truth is that open source is not the solution to everything.

Re:A few rough edges

[Anonymous Coward]

If it syncs with my android devices, it's superior.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I agree. I feel that just because it is open source we are expected to praise it.

It wasn't that long ago around here that would have been true. But the OSS zealotry seems to have died down to more practical levels these days. I don't miss the 'but does it support OGG?" +5s that flew around here.

Re:A few rough edges

[Anonymous Coward]

It wasn't that long ago around here that would have been true. But the OSS zealotry seems to have died down to more practical levels these days. I don't miss the 'but does it support OGG?" +5s that flew around here.

I recently set up a new Linux computer for my brother. If Ogg support was more widespread and mainstream, I wouldn't have needed to go through the process of compiling libav (ffmpeg) from source in order to support mp3 output.

So yeah, last weekend "Does it support Ogg?" was a very practical question for me.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Is it common for a Linux distro to not have MP3 support by default?

Re:A few rough edges

[CronoCloud]

Which distro? Even in the distros that insist on "free software only" like Fedora, there's usually a third party repository that lets you easily install mp3 support and whatnot.

Re:A few rough edges

[Risen888]

Still trying to figure out why it is acceptable for an FOSS product that aims to compete with iTunes to have "a few rough edges".

Because iTunes is a fucking abomination. It's nothing but rough edges. If someone else's product has only "a few," it is already winning.

Re:A few rough edges

[Risen888]

That's probably because everything supports OGG now. Because of us zealots. We won. Again. Enjoy your practicality, but remember who paid for it.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Enjoy your practicality, but remember who paid for it.

Heh. Your proud of making the majority's life harder?

Sorry man, I'm just not getting it.

Re:A few rough edges

[Risen888]

Explain to me how OGG support makes the majority's life harder. In small words.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

No mp3.

Re:A few rough edges

[Draek]

Honesty. Simply put, both Miro and iTunes have some glaring design issues, but Miro acknowledges them while iTunes merely says "they're not bugs, they're features, or would be if you were using OSX you dirty heathen".

Re:A few rough edges

[Draek]

Except it doesn't. Other than purely Free Linux apps and the odd game engine or two, pretty much everything that supports OGGs supports MP3, and given its licensing costs if OGG weren't there chances are they still wouldn't support MP3s.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Right, now go up a couple of posts and see what sparked this conversation.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

You know what, I owe you an apology. Another reply to my comment was saying that a distro of Linux he installed didn't support MP3s, but did support Ogg. I asked him about that and afterwards I got your comment, but didn't realize that you weren't replying to THAT comment, but my original one. So I thought you were saying "we got OGG support when we weren't getting MP3" support.

This misunderstanding (and my subsequent snidey'ness) is entirely my fault and I'm sorry.

Re:A few rough edges

[Draek]

Nope, nothing in any of the parents showing how Ogg support implies no MP3 support. The conversation went pretty much like this: "there hasn't been many people asking Ogg support" -> "because most stuff already does" -> "which sucks for the rest of us" -> "explain why" -> "no mp3 support" -> me WTFing.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

You know what, I owe you an apology. I got confused about which branch of this conversation I was involved with, and ... well you're the second person I'm apologizing to because I was being obnoxious.

I'm sorry man, I thought this was a continuation of the conversation I was having with somebody else about a Linux distro supporting OGG but not MP3s.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Haha you posted that right as I was posting an apology for being wrong. :D

If you're curious, you can go up to the beginning of this convo and see where it branched off, hopefully you'll see why I got confused. (And you'll still see I was being an ass.)

Re:A few rough edges

[Risen888]

What? That doesn't make any sense at all. Nobody took your mp3s away. I certainly didn't.

Try again. Maybe use a few more small words this time.

Re:A few rough edges

[Risen888]

lol. I replied to you above before I got this far down. Apology accepted, of course. No wonder we were both so damn confused at what the other was saying :)

Re:A few rough edges

[pandrijeczko]

The development process of FOSS is different, that's all.

You don't need to get "Version 1.0" before you release a piece of software, you can put it out there partially finished and let others do something with it.

The real upside of Open Source is that once you start using some FOSS software, and decide to stick with it, then you can pretty much use it indefinitely as it won't matter that you've upgraded from Windows XP to Windows 7, or want to run the same piece of software across Windows & Linux - because in both cases, if it's a popular enough piece of software, someone will compile it for your platform of choice.

No, it's not perfect, I agree, and it's much easier to visualise the progression of a software product when it comes out as a boxed major release every couple of years or so, rather than regularly appearing "dot" releases.

But if you compare, say, OpenOffice.org (or LibreOffice as it now) to MS Office, they both have major release cycles in about the same time frame - it's just that with OOO, you "see" all the maintenance releases between the major ones.

Re:A few rough edges

[pandrijeczko]

Personally I don't see anything wrong in letting other people know about the existence of a good piece of software, especially if it's completely free.

Is FOSS better than commercial software? Nope, not always. Even an aging mostly-Linux person like me likes using Windows XP occasionally and I keep it around for gaming and for a handful of great registered applications that, up to this point, do stuff I want to do better and faster than I can do them on Linux.

The difference is I don't treat software like a religion - software is a tool to entertain and get stuff done and I use the best tools for the job. But the fact is that software built on open standards is not just restricted to we Linux geeks, the Windows, Apple, etc. people benefit also.

Plus a good FOSS application gives the developers of commercial equivalents a run for their money forcing them to "up the ante" and make their products better - everyone benefits.

Please don't treat everyone who supports FOSS as a zealot. I'm always interested in reading the latest utterings from the likes of Richard Stallman but the fact is that he is as extreme about openness as Apple are about locking stuff down - in reality, most of us are somewhere along that line the joins the two of them together.

Re:A few rough edges

[Per Wigren]

Yes.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Personally I don't see anything wrong in letting other people know about the existence of a good piece of software, especially if it's completely free.

The word I used was 'zealotry'.

Please don't treat everyone who supports FOSS as a zealot.

I referred to zealotry.

Re:A few rough edges

[pandrijeczko]

No, you made a sweeping statement tarring everyone who uses FOSS as suffering from "zealotry".

I say that is not the case and have demonstrated clearly why.

I win.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

No, you made a sweeping statement tarring everyone who uses FOSS as suffering from "zealotry".

Wrong, I sweepingly referred to zealotry.

I say that is not the case and have demonstrated clearly why.

No, you demonstrated clearly that reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

Re:A few rough edges

[pandrijeczko]

Wrong, I sweepingly referred to zealotry.

Then there is no difference, since that would, in your words, make FOSS users merely a subset of the people in this world affected by zealotry,

In the context of FOSS users, which was the subject of our discussion, there is therefore no difference between the two. That in turn means you have resorted to arguing semantics instead of the core topic. That means you have lost the argument and I win.

No, you demonstrated clearly that reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

I will not repeat what I put in the previous comment since, as above, I now have no confidence in your willingness to stay focused on the discussion topic and feel it would therefore be a complete waste of my time re-iterating it to you.

If you wish to discuss the core topic further, then please re-read my posting, do your best to comprehend what I was saying and provide intelligent discussion - whereupon I may consider rescinding my victory and allow you to continue.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Then there is no difference, since that would, in your words, make FOSS users merely a subset of the people in this world affected by zealotry,

No. You've got FOSS users, and then you've got a small subset of those users, called Zealots, who infested Slashdot and said "Ogg?" over and over again.

I will not repeat what I put in the previous comment since, as above, I now have no confidence in your willingness to stay focused on the discussion topic and feel it would therefore be a complete waste of my time re-iterating it to you.

Right. I think it's more likely you read my original post and realized I was talking about OSS zealots and did not say one word about FOSS users in general. Then you didn't have the class to acknowledge the mistake and decided to run it into the ground.

If you wish to discuss the core topic further, then please re-read my posting, do your best to comprehend what I was saying...

You first.

Re:A few rough edges

[pandrijeczko]

Okay, back on topic then.

So why do you consider someone who touts OGG as a format as being a zealot? Personally, I don't use it because MP3 is more convenient for me and more devices still "prefer" MP3 to OGG - even though OGG may create smaller, better quality files. But I am aware of the potential inherent patent issues in being an MP3 user and I have no problem with someone else pointing out that inherent risk to me.

And moving on to FOSS in general, why do you also have such of an issue with free software? Do you work in the commercial software industry and have justifiable fears about losing sales because of FOSS alternatives? As far as I'm concerned, FOSS and commercial software can exist side-by-side and FOSS forces commercial software developers to compete to make better products, that can only be a good thing for consumers.

Yes, there are zealots in any community of users but please don't imply that everyone who uses FOSS is a zealot. I personally could not give a toss about "The Year Of Linux On The Desktop" or some fictional Windows vs. Linux war. I use it because it's a good tool to get things done, it doesn't do everything I need a computer to do, hence I also run Windows XP to fill in the gaps. I don't consider myself "dirty" for doing so and if and when XP finally goes out of my computing environment, it will be because I can do everything I need to in Linux, not because I'm a hippie who is trying to make a political statement.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

So why do you consider someone who touts OGG as a format as being a zealot?

I don't. I was talking about the zealots who, as an example, parrot the phrase about Ogg support.

And moving on to FOSS in general, why do you also have such of an issue with free software?

I have expressed no issues with free software.

Yes, there are zealots in any community of users but please don't imply that everyone who uses FOSS is a zealot.

I haven't.

Re:A few rough edges

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

So... did you learn your lesson about reading comprehension?

music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[acomj]

As of now, music on amazon and itunes is DRM free.

It won't be too hard to top the itunes interface for syncing though..

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[Dan667]

I just started using Miro and love it. Am stuck with a ipod though so I have been saving the files to a folder, deleting my library from itunes, and letting it resync with the files so I can sync the ipod. If Miro starts syncing to the ipod I will drop itunes all together. Also a real bulk export feature that does not require files to be converted is needed for Miro.

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[tripleevenfall]

What about all the music purchased from iTunes in the years and years prior, when it wasn't DRM free? Will Miro play that?

If people have to leave behind all their m4p and other protected format music (a substantial amount of their collection, for many), they won't switch over.

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[jo_ham]

Use iTunes itself to break that DRM, as Apple have encouraged strongly all along: burn it to audio CD. This has always been possible, ever since DRMed music was available in iTunes. You sacrifice a little if you then re-rip into a lossy format, but it is free. Alternatively you can upgrade your old purchased tracks for 20 cents (or local currency equivalent) to the higher-bitrate, non-DRM versions that are now available in the store.

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[tripleevenfall]

So the proposal is that all these people should spend hours (days? weeks? months?) meticulously burning their purchased music to audio CD, 10-12 at a time, then reimporting them and renaming all the tracks and such?

The general public's reaction : "F*ck that"

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[dch24]

I'm sure somebody will eventually write a de-DRM tool... someday...

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[jo_ham]

Why rename them? iTunes supports CD-text, it's right there in the options. This option was suggested by Apple at the time you bought the music (very strongly suggested on each purchase), and is a free way to do it, if a little time consuming if you have tons of stuff - it is, however, a free and fully supported way to remove DRM from old iTunes tracks. The assertion was that "if there was no way to get out of the DRM trap with old tracks" then "people won't switch". I am simply stating that not only can you "get out", but that the ability to do so was built in from day one.

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[jfengel]

I'm lukewarm on iTunes for syncing, and it's music store interface is simply abysmal: weirdly modal, brutally slow and unresponsive, seemingly obvious features unimplemented or half-assed. Not at all what I've come to expect from Apple.

iTunes started somewhere else, but Apple's had a long time to make it less-bad. They've fixed a few really aggravating bugs, but it's still only meh.

Still... the fact that it download my podcasts on its own time and syncs the iPod just by plugging it in (deleting old ones, more or less, and uploading new ones) is really, really convenient, and keeps me using it.

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[Risen888]

What about all the music purchased from iTunes in the years and years prior, when it wasn't DRM free? Will Miro play that?

If people have to leave behind all their m4p and other protected format music (a substantial amount of their collection, for many), they won't switch over.

Why should we care about that?

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't event have to bother doing that. In iTunes, make sure that your preferences are set to import to MP3 (Preferences->General->Import Settings....->Import Using). Then highlight songs to convert, right-click and select "Create MP3 Version". And iTunes converts to MP3 for you, without the trouble of burning and ripping. And the DRM is gone from old DRMed tracks.

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the most asinine way of doing something I've ever heard. Why can't Apple just un-DRM this stuff?

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[Pieroxy]

Because it's not their stuff. It's the RIAA's affiliate's stuff.

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[EraserMouseMan]

I divorced Apple earlier this year. I found "Daniusoft DRM Converter" to strip off all the DRM on my older iTunes downloads. I'm loving my media situation with no iTunes in sight.

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[jo_ham]

Of course it is, like all DRM schemes, but it was never Apple's choice - it was a requirement of the content owners, and Apple made it as weak as they could get away with (I mean, building in a way to defeat the DRM by default and then promoting its use with every download is a pretty obvious 'we think this is stupid too, but go with it for now' move by them).

As soon as they could get rid of the DRM they did so, and offered a couple of ways out for the old tracks, one of which was the CD burn method which always existed, the other was an upgrade fee per track that got you new downloads at a higher bitrate with no DRM.

Don't try to apply any sense to a DRM system with an obvious analog hole (humans need to hear the music!) - Apple thought so too and were as disdainful as possible while still being on the right side of the music industry (since they own the content Apple wants to sell).

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. You get "XXX" could not be converted because protected files cannot be converted to other formats.

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[dch24]

Wow, the imagery! I like it.

Did Apple sue for alimony? ;-) Did they "take their stuff" and storm out? (By that, I mean all the DRMed stuff, but obviously not because you were able to convert it.)

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[pandrijeczko]

I've never understood people who tout lossy recompression as some kind of "feature".

Why not just *BUY THE BLOODY CD*, rip it yourself and stick the CD on a shelf as an automatic, always available backup of your music? And save all that mucking about with CD-Rs as well.

And please don't give me that "there's only 1 or 2 good tracks on an album" crap. If that's the case, try listening to some talented musicians who can put together albums that are great from start to finish, rather than plastic manufactured rubbish played by idiots who are only capable of churning out two single-quality tracks with the rest as filler.

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[pandrijeczko]

Of course it is, like all DRM schemes, but it was never Apple's choice - it was a requirement of the content owners, and Apple made it as weak as they could get away with (I mean, building in a way to defeat the DRM by default and then promoting its use with every download is a pretty obvious 'we think this is stupid too, but go with it for now' move by them).

I'll use that argument if and when I am ever stopped in my car for speeding by a police officer.

"It's like this, officer. It's Peugeot's fault for putting an accelerator pedal right underneath where I want to rest my foot flat!"

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[pandrijeczko]

There's a really good un-DRM tool available at the moment.

Common Sense v1.0.

Re:music on Amazon and Itunes has no DRM

[jo_ham]

The lossy recompression (assuming you ripped back to a lossy format) was just a side effect of the free, built in DRM removal. The paid upgrade for you better files when the store went DRM free. The other option was a direct to mp3 conversion from the DRM'ed tracks (set the encoder to mp3, select all the tracks, click "create mp3 version") with no need for CD-Rs.

I didn;t say it was perfect, but the original DRM'ed files weren't a perfect solution either. The current system (relatively high bitrate, DRM-free, AAC music) is pretty good - certainly good enough for a large number of people. Of course, the fact that the iTunes store exists doesn't prevent you from buying CDs, but you knew that already.

"You know you want to." YES....I do:

[Smidge207]

Rob Malda is a 26-year old white male with a stocky build and a beard. His head is shaved. He responded to my ad to be interviewed for this article wearing only leather pants, leather boots and a leather vest. I could see that both of his nipples were pierced with large-gauge silver rings.

Questioner: I hope you won't be offended if I ask you to prove to me that you're a nullo. Just so that our readers will know that this isn't a fake.

Rob: Sure, no problem. (stands and unbuckles pants and drops them to his ankles, revealing a smooth, shaven crotch with only a thin scar to show where his genitals once were).

Q: Thank you. That's a remarkable sight.

(laughs and pulls pants back up). Most people think so.

Q: What made you decide to become a nullo?

(pauses). Well, it really wasn't entirely my decision.

Q: Excuse me?

The idea wasn't mine. It was my lover's idea.

Q: Please explain what you mean.

Okay, it's a long story. You have to understand my relationship with Michael before you'll know what happened.

Q: We have plenty of time. Please go on.

Both of us were into the leather lifestyle when we met through a personal ad. Michael's ad was very specific: he was looking for someone to completely dominate and modify to his pleasure. In other word, a slave.

The ad intrigued me. I had been in a number of B&D scenes and also some S&M, but I found them unsatisfying because they were all temporary. After the fun was over, everybody went on with life as usual.

I was looking for a complete life change. I wanted to meet someone who would be part of my life forever. Someone who would control me and change me at his whim.

Q: In other words, you're a true masochist.

Oh yes, no doubt about that. I've always been totally passive in my sexual relationships.

Anyway, we met and there was instant chemistry. Michael is a few years older than me and very good looking. Our personalities meshed totally. He's very dominant.

I went back to his place after drinks and had the best sex of my life. That's when I knew I was going to be with Michael for a long, long time.

Q: What sort of things did you two do?

It was very heavy right away. He restrained me and whipped me for quite awhile. He put clamps on my nipples and a ball gag in my mouth. And he hung a ball bag on my sack with some very heavy weights. That bag really bounced around when Michael fucked me from behind.

Q: Ouch.

(laughs) Yeah, no kidding. At first I didn't think I could take the pain, but Michael worked me through it and after awhile I was flying. I was sorry when it was over.

Michael enjoyed it as much as I did. Afterwards he talked about what kind of a commitment I'd have to make if I wanted to stay with him.

Q: What did he say exactly?

Well, besides agreeing to be his slave in every way, I'd have to be ready to be modified. To have my body modified.

Q: Did he explain what he meant by that?

Not specifically, but I got the general idea. I guessed that something like castration might be part of it.

Q: How did that make you feel?

(laughs) I think it would make any guy a little hesitant.

Q: But it didn't stop you from agreeing to Michael's terms?

No it didn't. I was totally hooked on this man. I knew that I was willing to pay any price to be with him.

Anyway, a few days later I moved in with Michael. He gave me the rules right away: I'd have to be naked at all times while we were indoors, except for a leather dog collar that I could never take off. I had to keep my head shaved. And I had to wear a butt plug except when I needed to take a shit or when we were having sex.

I had to sleep on the floor next to his bed. I ate all my food on the floor, too.

The next day he took me to a piercing parlor where he had my nipples done, and a Prince Albert put into the head of my cock.

Q: Heavy stuff.

Yeah, and it got heavier. He used me as a toilet, pissing in my mouth. I had to l

Re:"You know you want to." YES....I do:

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. I had no idea that CmdrTaco has a beard.

Content is king..

[thestudio_bob]

Content is king and if they ain't got the content, then they are not really going to be able to compete

I know people seem to like to bash Apple for DRM, but who do you think is pushing for DRM? (Hint: The people that control the content).

Re:Content is king..

[Lunix Nutcase]

I know people seem to like to bash Apple for DRM

And wrongly so since the music bought from iTunes hasn't had DRM in for more than 2 years now.

Re:Content is king..

[Anonymous Coward]

Content is king and if they ain't got the content, then they are not really going to be able to compete

I know people seem to like to bash Apple for DRM, but who do you think is pushing for DRM? (Hint: The people that control the content).

so much fail in one post.

1. Apple music no longer has DRM.
2. Miro has all the same premium content as well -- from both the Google Market AND Amazon's Mp3 Store.

Re:Content is king..

[Kamiza Ikioi]

Yet iTunes is still very monolithic in its support for i* devices. This post is not about the store, which I feel I have to keep pointing out. It's about the software. The quote in the summary is very misleading that way. The top down walled garden is the Appleverse, not mp3s. In other words, you don't have to buy into the Apple "experience" to get a good "experience". ;)

Re:Content is king..

[duranaki]

Yeah.. because no one owns songs they bought more than 2 years ago. They just throw them away and buy new DRM free versions, right? I'd praise Apple for dropping DRM only if they allowed you to un-DRM the old tracks for free (or the price difference). All their old customers are still locked in... even if its only $20 worth of DRM'd music they own, that's still $20 they now have to spend to access content they already paid for on another player.

Re:Content is king..

[Microlith]

There's DRM wrapped around everything else available from the store. Get back to me when that's not the case.

Re:Content is king..

[jedidiah]

...which would be a lot more meaningful if all Apple sold was music.

Apple still benefits greatly from DRM and being generally difficult to deal with when it comes to anything that was not purchased from Apple.

The path of least resistance is clearly marked. At the end of that path is Steve Jobs with a cash register.

Re:Content is king..

[LoganDzwon]

Ya, you praise Apple! another converted... (Around the time they dropped DRM you could download stuff that deDRMed your whole music library in about 5 minutes, unofficially of course. As part of the DRM dropping announcement they also introduced the option to "upgrade" some or all your DRMed music to the higher bit rate non-DRMed music for the free, or the some of the price difference, or at worst case, the price difference between what was originally paid and the current pricing.) In fact, someone that bought $20 of stuff years ago can go on itunes TODAY and upgrade it all to DRM free for the price difference between what they paid and the current rate.

Re:Content is king..

[larry bagina]

Apple did sell DRM-free 256kbps upgrades for $0.30/song. That's the price difference between $0.99 128kbps songs and $1.29 256kbps iTunes plus songs.

Re:Content is king..

[Anonymous Coward]

No you don't have to spend $20 to get it again. Obviously you've never even tried this but felt the need to speak anyhow. Next time you log into the iTune store, it should ask you if you want to upgrade your DRM'ed tracks to non-DRMed tracks for a small fee (the difference in price).

Re:Content is king..

[Anonymous Coward]

I unDRMed my songs for a few cents each. Not sure why you wouldn't be given the option.

Re:Content is king..

[tomuo]

Not 100% correct. iTunes (US) is DRM free. Other country''s iTunes (e.g. JP) still have plenty if not all DRM'ed AAC files.

Re:Content is king..

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you don't have to entirely re-purchase the music with DRM. They will charge you a little to convert to "iTunes Plus" format ($0.30 USD per song, or $0.60 USD per video), but you also get a higher audio bitrate (256 kbps) and no DRM. Doesn't seem like a terrible deal. See http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1711.

Re:Content is king..

[mjwx]

I know people seem to like to bash Apple for DRM, but who do you think is pushing for DRM? (Hint: The people that control the content).

Who do you think is a majority shareholder in Disney, one of the most aggressive parties pushing for more DRM and more lopsided copyright laws.

Apple are armpit deep in the content industry, they just want you to delude yourself that they are working in your interests instead of theirs.

Re:Content is king..

[mjwx]

I know people seem to like to bash Apple for DRM

And wrongly so since the music bought from iTunes hasn't had DRM in for more than 2 years now.

But on everything else, DRM in spades.

Apple fans tend to use that as misdirection to hide the fact that DRM is still at the centre of Itunes and iDevices.

Re:Content is king..

[gmhowell]

Sync API is open. Nothing preventing manufacturer of Android device 'foo' from shipping a plugin for iTunes. Talk to them.

Re:Content is king..

[Anonymous Coward]

Last I had heard, they actively blocked devices that did not have a specific USB ID. As I recall, the Palm Pre had to masquerade its ID to work with iTunes. That doesn't sound very open.

Re:Content is king..

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, and forgot one thing... since when has any open software required that the device implements API to sync. Syncing with cameras and media players is pretty standard, and requires no special knowledge between software and portable device at all. It all sounds very M$, except even M$ syncing doesn't require a device implement any API. Why the extra hoop?

Re:Content is king..

[pandrijeczko]

CDs haven't had DRM for almost 30 years.

Re:Content is king..

[gmhowell]

Cart before the horse in this question. Apple chooses not to write their software to do the task you would like it to do (talk with non-Apple portable music players). But they have made it fairly easy to do the same for people who care to. I've never looked into it myself, but I'm guessing that nobody has done this yet because it would make it too easy for other manufacturers to become free riders. That said, I would have thought that at some point, some coder would throw something together for devices that mount as a USB mounted hard drive. I suspect there is more to it than I have implied.

As far as Palm, they felt it easier to lie to the system about the identity of the device than to write whatever plugin was necessary. Why they did it this way is beyond me, as they felt more like bitching and whining than explaining, in technical terms, why the proscribed solution was unacceptable to them. I should also note that the particular way in which they lied broke the USB standard if one is being particularly strict at reading it.

Re:Content is king..

[brantondaveperson]

The API is *open*. You can write something as a plugin for itunes that can enable syncing to anything you please. This is not the same as pretending to be an ipod at the USB level.

I even wrote a syncing plugin for itunes, that amongst other things automatically added downloaded music to the itunes library. It wasn't hard. If Android smartphone vendors haven't bothered to write syncing plugins for itunes I would think that they are either rather lazy or rather arrogant. And judging by the syncing software I've seen for some android devices they certainly aren't lazy.

Re:Content is king..

[brantondaveperson]

I suspect there is more to it than I have implied.

In windows at least, itunes exposes a COM interface that can be used to query the entire contents of the library, including where the files are actually located. It would be almost trivial to write something to even do a bi-directional sync with a USB mass-storage device. I have no idea why no-one has done this, perhaps it's just because so few people apparently know anything about this interface.

Re:Content is king..

[Anonymous Coward]

They were allowing people to pay early on to UN-DRM their music for the price difference. I guess you waited too long.

Re:Content is king..

[Anonymous Coward]

And wrongly so since the music bought from iTunes hasn't had DRM in for more than 2 years now.

...in your country.

Not blaming Apple for the DRM over here (Japan) as it's largely dependent on the wishes of publishers, but everything (all two or 3 mp3s) I ever bought from the store was DRM ridden, which I then had to play and record with Audacity in order to remove the DRM without doing it the way my pro-iTunes friends recommend (burn a CD then rip the CD...)

iTunes software is horrible to use in Windows, forces you to install QuickTime Player (garbage, which until a couple of years ago didn't let you watch videos full screen unless you paid for it) and installs a bunch of processes that run regardless of whether or not iTunes is open, so I don't doubt Miro can be better.

And I'm so sure

[Anonymous Coward]

And I'm so sure that Apple with its millions of iTunes users and the 10+ billion downloads of songs is really quaking in their boots over some obscure piece of software with 4 users.

Re:And I'm so sure

[Anonymous Coward]

And I'm so sure that Apple with its millions of iTunes users and the 10+ billion downloads of songs is really quaking in their boots over some obscure piece of software with 4 users.

Oh, so that's what the '4' stands for.

Re:And I'm so sure

[605dave]

Miro has 2 million active users, and this was before the current release.

Re:And I'm so sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, and Ubuntu has 50 million users. We can all make up any stats we want.

Re:And I'm so sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Miro has 2 million active users, and this was before the current release.

[citation needed]

Re:And I'm so sure

[jellomizer]

So about 0.03% of the population huh.

Re:And I'm so sure

[Risen888]

We don't give a fuck about that. We'll keep making better shit. That's its own reward. Inevitable world domination is just gravy.

Re:And I'm so sure

[dylan_-]

So about 0.03% of the population huh.

No. Not by any reckoning.

Not going to work

[gentlemen_loser]

Any time any company or organization markets itself as "the [insert adjective] [insert proper noun] alternative for the [insert other proper noun]" the group is destined to failure. The issue is, at its heart, where the company is coming from. Rather than trying to invent a great music/video player, they are trying to invent an iTunes (or anything else) clone. Please STOP! Go invent a great, open source, cross platform music player without looking at iTunes and people will come.

Don't believe me? In the electronic music community, there is a synth called Zebra 2. Its from a company run and developed entirely by one guy who never advertised it. He never pitched it as the "something for the something else alternative." He just made a great fucking synth. After a short amount of time, word got out, all of the music rags covered it, and now it tops all of the "greatest synth" lists.

You will never get anywhere making a clone. You'll always be a step behind.

Re:Not going to work

[Anonymous Coward]

Kind of a broad criticism, don't you think? Firefox and Android both have been positioned that way, with huge success. What matters is the quality of the product and Miro is very solid and very needed for Android users.

Re:Not going to work

[Vyse of Arcadia]

Example #2: Amarok, the most kick-ass music player there is.

Re:Not going to work

[Hatta]

Any time any company or organization markets itself as "the [insert adjective] [insert proper noun] alternative for the [insert other proper noun]" the group is destined to failure

Absolutely. For instance, a project that billed itself as "the free UNIX alternative for the PC" could never go anywhere.

Re:Not going to work

[joh]

You will never get anywhere making a clone. You'll always be a step behind.

Yeah, but at least you're behind the leader which is more than where you'd be when you wouldn't try that.

This isn't new. Linux is a Unix clone, then tried to become a Windows clone until Gnome tried to clone OS X. Miro tried to be something original and nobody cared and now Miro tries to clone iTunes for Android (which tried to clone iOS). So what?

Coming up with something original *and* being successful with that is really, really hard.

Re:Not going to work

[SideshowBob]

It's interesting that you chose those 2 examples because I would assert that their success is due to similar reasons. They both benefitted by filling a void neglected by the top competitor. In Firefox's case Microsoft had allowed IE to languish. In Android's case Apple was stuck in an exclusivity deal with AT&T and Android was something that the other networks could run against the iPhone.

Re:Not going to work

[h4rr4r]

Linux might be a Unix clone, but the kernel never tried to be windows. Gnome and KDE tried that.

Android did not clone iOS at all. Not anymore than iOS cloned the smartphones that came before it.

Re:Not going to work

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair, Miro is a free internet TV app that does bittorrent, downloads from any website in standard formats, etc. It's FAR SUPERIOR to iTunes. I don't even know why Miro is associating itself with those clowns.

Re:Not going to work

[hsmyers]

To damn bad Microsoft didn't pay attention to you when they cloned _________ (fill in the blank on the product of your choice) obviously all of these were failures. Your abysmal ignorance of the history of software evolution over the last 3 decades is rather remarkable----definitely worthy of the +5insightful, oh yes indeedy!

Re:Not going to work

[Risen888]

Rather than trying to invent a great music/video player, they are trying to invent an iTunes (or anything else) clone.

Have you ever even seen Miro? This is an absurd statement.

Re:Not going to work

[Anonymous Coward]

Android did not clone iOS at all.

Seriously?

Not anymore than iOS cloned the smartphones that came before it.

Ah, a qualification. A ridiculous and untrue one at that. You going to post that shitty Samsung that was only shown a few months before the realise of iPhone and wasn't actually any good now? Hmm? Yeah, bust that one out

Re:Not going to work

[Draek]

Even ignoring "clones" that ultimately surpassed the original such as Unix, Linux, GCC and so, Miro is already a well-established project that's been going on for years (the project formerly known as "DemocracyPlayer" btw) and has got a sizeable userbase on PCs, this new marketing strategy is merely the result of one guy noticing that, if Miro makes for such a neat app on PCs it'd be pretty cool to have it on Android as well, and since it'd work roughly iTunes-ish they could market it as such rather than explain all its features one by one.

Re:Not going to work

[Myopic]

iTunes was an alternative to SoundJam, in that it was SoundJam.

Re:Not going to work

[Bob9113]

> You will never get anywhere making a clone.

There are a few examples of clone software that has done fairly well. Consider DOS, Lotus 1-2-3, Macintosh OS, Windows, Word, Sql Server, MySQL, Excel, OpenOffice, Netscape, Mozilla, Internet Explorer, Chrome, and Safari. Many of which were not just de facto clones but explicitly so.

Re:Not going to work

[pandrijeczko]

Any time any company or organization markets itself as "the [insert adjective] [insert proper noun] alternative for the [insert other proper noun]" the group is destined to failure.

Sssshhhh! Listen!

Far across the distant reaches of the Internet, you can hear the distant cackles of laughter of Firefox and Internet Standards developers.

Does not every other used FOSS player do the same?

[nzac]

Though i did not read the article, i though every other full featured useful FOSS player have the same features except for android syncing.

Though every new iOS breaks it, libipod has worked in the past.

No Competition

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no competition here. At least iTunes works when you start it up. Miro 4.0 has been giving me this "There is no disk in the drive..." crap. I guess for Android, I'll have to stick with Songbird for open source.

And I wonder, what has happened to make the internet community associate "Open Source" with "better"? Sure some Open Source software is great such as OpenOffice, VLC, Firefox, and the Chromium Project. But others aren't so great *cough* ATI Drivers on any platform and now Miro 4.0.

Re:No Competition

[mattcsn]

I got the exact same error. I had my android phone plugged in to charge, but had ejected it so I could access the micro-sd card. Unplugging the cable fixed the problem.

Re:No Competition

[pandrijeczko]

I've been using computers for 30+ years but I still struggle sync-ing my self-ripped music collection to the iPod Touch the missus gave to me when she went to iPhone. I find it incredibly unintuitive.

At the same time, I'm now on my second Android phone (due to a recent upgrade) and I can just plug it into Windows or Linux and it mounts as a drive that I can just copuy stuff straight to if I want to - hell, I even wrote a handful of simple rsync scripts that sync stuff to it (from Linux) pretty much automatically. As a media organiser and player, personally I don't think you can beat Banshee for intuitiveness.

And please make sure you compare like-for-like. ATI's drivers are NOT Open Source, that's precisely one of the reasons why they're not that good on Linux.

WinAmp

[Archangel Michael]

While it is Windows only, it is solid, offers Android support and just ... works. If you're Apple, you're gonna be an Fanboi anyway and use iTunes. If you're on Linux, you'll use some crappy software and feel all superior about not buying DRMed Music from Apple (which doesn't even sell DRMed music any longer).

Re:WinAmp

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow... I remember when Slashdot actually had an audience full of informed geeks, now it's full of teenage Windows fanbois, what a disgusting change.

Re:WinAmp

[Anonymous Coward]

Wish I could get Winamp to work properly on wine...

Re:WinAmp

[mjwx]

While it is Windows only, it is solid, offers Android support and just ... works. If you're Apple, you're gonna be an Fanboi anyway and use iTunes. If you're on Linux, you'll use some crappy software.

If you've got half a brain, you'd just buy a device with MSC support and copy media over to it as it the device was a flash disk. MSC Just Works(TM) with OSX, Linux and Windows without the need for additional software.

The feeling of superiority comes from buying something that can do 10 times what an Ipod could for half the price... and that feeling is quite justified.

Re:WinAmp

[pandrijeczko]

Actually, I'm feeling more "confused" than "superior".

I've never understood why anyone would buy ANY lossy downloadable music from ANYWHERE when it's usually cheaper to buy the CD (used if you want to be REALLY frugal) than paying track-by-track. Plus a CD gives you an automatic backup of your music that you can just sit on a shelf, and you can rip stuff over-and-over again to a format suitable for what you want to listen to it on.

The only ADVANTAGE I see downloadable music gives to anyone is that you can have it right there and then - in which case, some people probably need to go look up "patience" in a dictionary.

I actually think it's the other way round, you know, because I am really happy with the music I listen to, the huge selection that I can go off an buy any time I like and paying a few quid for a CD that I may spend 30+ years enjoying is great value for money in my book.

My view is it's you people who are unhappy with your disposable downloadable music who envy people like me who get so much pleasure from it, but simply haven't developed the patience to search for a CD at the best price onlune and then wait a couple of days to pop through the letterbox.

Re:WinAmp

[Archangel Michael]

Why buy a CD with one good song and nine crappy filler songs when you can buy on song for $.99 (or less) ?? Most music today, is crap, and every once in a while some one hit wonder is actually worth having in my collection. That is why.

Second, most people are listening to music in crappy audio zones, like cars or through ear buds that suck. Unless you're playing on full range speakers that are tuned to your locale and audio system, you're not going to notice the difference anyway. And the way most people bastardize the music anyway by over adjusting bass or treble tones, or playing so loud that the crappy speakers are distorting the music anyway, then it really doesn't matter for 80% of the people.

Whatever "loss" in audio quality there is, isn't noticed by the loss in audio quality due to other factors. That is, unless you can hear the difference in gold plated digital audio cables, then all bets are off.

Re:WinAmp

[pandrijeczko]

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions - even though they are derived from a sweeping statement.

There are thousands of great albums out there that are high quality from start to finish - this notion of "two good tracks per album" may be the case for churned-out plastic pop, but is definitely not the case for music made by talented musicians. So if you yourself find that is definitely the case, then I suggest you go find some more talented artists to listen to.

Yes, we all have music playing in the background while we do something else but please do not call that scenario "listening to music" because it isn't. In order to appreciate fully a good piece of music, you need to give it your full attention span - if you are not doing that then you can learn a thing or two from these guys.

Finally, don't confuse appreciating music with being an audiophile snob. I have a "reasonable" hi-fi set up that cost me no more than about £600 for CD player, amplifier & speakers. It does me fine, I haven't done any upgrades to it in about 8 years and only if I happen to come across a set-up in a similar price range that has a quality difference to justify additional expense then I may consider an upgrade. Otherwise, it's fine how it is.

I'm in my late 40s, I know hearing deteriorates with age (not noticeably so in my case) but I cannot personally tell the difference between an actual CD track and an MP3 rip at 256K on my hi-fi setup - I "think" I can hear a slight deterioration at 192K but that might be just my imagination.

Really?

[lennier1]

Did it change that much?

Last time I tried Miro it was such a waste of time it didn't survive more than 10 minutes on my harddisk.

windows bug fixed today

[ravrore]

The Miro folks say that the Windows bug described in the 'rough edges' link above has been fixed and the update will be released today.

Not switching over

[Anonymous Coward]

Although built-in LAN streaming, media conversion and Android syncing are all tempting, it's nothing I can't already do with VLC, ffmpeg, lame, and rsync (Android rsyncd over WLAN is awesome).

Besides, Miro and Last.fm don't seem to cooperate, neither with the Last.fm client nor with any Miro extension.

To date, the only media players I know that let me keep my media library arranged by folders are foobar2000 (Windows, Last.fm client supported) and mplayer (Linux, lastfmsubmitd).

9 reasons Miro is not better than what I use now.

[Hatta]

1)Works with my current music library. -- So does mplayer.

2)Converts and syncs to Android -- I don't have an android.

3)Buy Music and Apps inside Miro -- I like my music and apps free thanks.

4)Download and play almost any video -- So does mplayer

5)Convert any video -- Again, mplayer

6)Share Your Media on your Network -- This is what Samba is for.

7)Open-source - don't lock yourself in! -- Excellent point, but not superior to what I use now.

8)Ultra-fast torrent downloading -- Do one thing and do it well. Can Miro be controlled programatically like rTorrent?

9) But it's not about the features! -- I'm not even sure what that means.

God, I hate marketing. Bullshit doesn't smell any nicer when it's coming from open source.

lucene sqlite

[fak3r]

I have a lot of music, so far the search UI is pretty sluggish (and I've run it on the commaline so I could watch when the indexing was complete). I'm wondering if lucene would be a better choice than sqlite for building the index. Subsonic (yes, it's web based, so for streaming music, not the exact same thing - but about the same amount of data to index) uses lucene and its search functionality is very nice and fast.

Not quite ready for prime time

[Tim_F]

This article really makes me want to bring out an old trolling account...

Miro is not quite ready for prime time:

1) It uses GTK on Windows. This makes the app look childish. Why couldn't they use internal Windows decorations?
2) The interface is not up to snuff. It looks unprofessional.

Now, the good stuff:

1) I can finally use it as a replacement for iTunes to listen to my podcasts. I have tried this with each major Miro release and this is the first one that does what I would expect it to. If only it did this without looking as ugly as sin.

If I was a troll I might throw in something about how Gnome used to use GTK and how this made it also look childish. It wasn't until Ubuntu switched Gnome to something other than GTK that it began to look usable.

--Tim

Re:Not quite ready for prime time

[Anonymous Coward]

Tim, I work on Miro and I'd actually really appreciate some advice on what you think would make Miro look better on windows, if you want to get in touch- nicholas - @ - pculture.org We will be making a lot of tweaks for the next release.

Re:Not quite ready for prime time

[Anonymous Coward]

Qt is the only game in town for professional, cross-platform GUIs

Re:Not quite ready for prime time

[spiralx]

Just from looking at the screenshots on the site I can say

a) tons of wasted vertical whitespace in lists (both left column and track lists
b) wildly inconsistent borders between screen elements - the borders between menu bar, left column, right area and bottom panel are all different.
c) weird striped effect on the bottom panel instead of a gradient at least
d) alert box options are inconsistent with other Windows programs
e) left sidebar headings are harder to see than the items under them - lighter font, no indentation

Unfortunately, I'm sure some of that is down to using GTK, which produces horrible-looking apps on Windows.

What free music?

[tepples]

2)Converts and syncs to Android -- I don't have an android.

What pocket-size music playing device do you have instead, and what software do you currently use to sync to that?

3)Buy Music and Apps inside Miro -- I like my music and apps free thanks.

Free music? Another Slashdot user seems to think that free music consists of "sucky indie bands who need to practice more and promote less, and that's about it". What free music were you thinking of?

Re:What free music?

[CronoCloud]

What pocket-size music playing device do you have instead, and what software do you currently use to sync to that?

I'm not the person you're responding to, but I decided to answer. I have a PSP (and an old V3xx Razr), and I use either the terminal or nautilus. Being of an older generation I think in terms of Albums, not singles.

Re:What free music?

[Anonymous Coward]

Diablo Swing Orchestra and TenPenny Joke have both enjoyed huge success on jamendo... Both pretty awesome, IMO.

Re:What free music?

[jedidiah]

> What pocket-size music playing device do you have instead,

An Android tablet.

> and what software do you currently use to sync to that?

For automated syncing: rsync.

For non-automated syncing: Nautilus.

There's usually no good reason to bother with special proprietary tools just to move files around.

Re:What free music?

[jedidiah]

> Being of an older generation I think in terms of Albums, not singles.

I find that aspect of iTunes really quite annoying.

Re:What free music?

[Duradin]

I've never encountered any problems with handling Albums in iTunes. Of course if you've got shoddy meta-data you'll have problems but then GIGO isn't an iTunes issue.

Re:What free music?

[Hatta]

I have a Sansa Fuze running Rockbox. I 'sync' to it using cp. It's full of taper friendly music.

Re:What free music?

[spiralx]

The problem with iTunes is that is doesn't allow organisation by directory; to delineate an album you need to set the Album Artist field in the ID3 tag (not present in any MP3s in my library at the time I first installed iTunes), or use a special iTunes ID3 tag that marks it as a compilation (again, not present). Oh, and there's another special ID3 tag required for gapless playback as well.

Software, not store

[Kamiza Ikioi]

They are talking about the software versus iTunes software. Not the store versus the iTunes store. This was an update to the player. The biggest point is synchronizing. They are saying, listen, we can sync very well without creating an artificial walled garden in the software. AKA - iTunes hates other music players, and is designed to only work with iP(od/hone/ad).

Of course the store sucks at this point. Google and Amazon, which have the real shots at popular stores, are working from a cloud perspective with cloud players. Miro is working from a local cache standpoint. Syncing to a computer and creating a local network cloud streamer.

If Google and Amazon are the big repositories, Miro is working on building the "last mile". Being that Miro is open source, they are really saying to Google and Amazon, if you like open source for Android, why not look at us as your open source music/video player for windows/linux/android. They are saying it to everyone, but I can bet they are hoping for a big check from the Googlzon to select them as the last mile solution to their crappy 1-off players.

I Use Miro

[Gnaythan1]

I've had it on my computer for a couple years now. It had codecs for a bunch of videos I had on my system from a LONG time ago. I like it. I noticed a new update popped up when I watched a video on it yesterday. I always have a couple redundant systems on my computer so if one of my old files doesn't work I can test it on something else. Miro is as good as anything else for watching movies on, and having options besides the big dominating one is always a good thing.
.

The power behind Apple

[theurge14]

Apple had the power to leverage (iPod sales, etc) to convince the large record companies to make their music available to purchase through the iTunes store.

Does an open source venture such as Miro have that sort of power?

(And do the people at Miro realize that iTunes tracks have been DRM free for over 2 years now?)

Re:The power behind Apple

[ideaz]

"(And do the people at Miro realize that iTunes tracks have been DRM free for over 2 years now?)" So does the Amazon MP3 store (which has seamless integration to Miro), or am I missing something here?

Re:The power behind Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Miro has a built-in store to buy from Amazon; no need to convince anyone.

Re:9 reasons Miro is not better than what I use no

[petsounds]

3)Buy Music and Apps inside Miro -- I like my music and apps free thanks.

Eh? I imagine there is some freely-released music out there, but by and large most artists are trying to put food on the table. Or did you mean free-as-in-screw-the-artist?

As for Miro itself, yeah, no thanks. First, the installer tries to put some Yahoo crapware on your system, which pretty much makes the app untrustworthy as far as I'm concerned. But it also tries to emulate the iTunes UI to a fault, while not really offering anything better in terms of finding/playing/arranging music.

Re:9 reasons Miro is not better than what I use no

[Risen888]

I'd like to know if it syncs to normal mp3 players. I really used to like Miro, but the lack of that feature pushed me to Gpodder (which I also like, but lacks some whizbang stuff I had become used to with Miro, like a way better catalog).

why miro is FAIL

[perryizgr8]

below is my reply to the "9 Reasons why Miro is better than what you have now" on their website:
1."Works with your current music library"
really?? well, my current media player also works with my current music library. how is miro better?

2."Converts and syncs to Android"
i just pop out my x10 mini's 16gb microsd card and then its all just drag-n-drop. btw, drag-n-drop is better when you have just 16gb space and your music library is huge.

3. "Buy Music and Apps inside Miro
The Amazon MP3 store is built-in to Miro. Buy, download, and listen, seamlessly. Buy Android apps from the Amazon or Google app stores and they will sync to your device."
amazon store is built-in to firefox. android market is built-in to my phone. why should i use miro?

4. "Download and play almost any video"
vlc plays EVERY video.

5. "Convert any video"
windows 7 automatically does this for every device that supports mtp. no fiddling with 'presets' either.

6. "Share Your Media on your Network"
i don't need this, though it might be useful for some people. also win 7 and wmp do this automagically.

7. "Open-source - don't lock yourself in!"
the shittiest argument ever made.

8. "Ultra-fast torrent downloading"
do we need our media players to download torrents?? why not also provide a maps feature too, or firmware flashing? or any other random feature?

9. "But it's not about the features!"
actually it is about the features, it is about the usability and it is about not ripping some other product off. *cough*itunes*cough*

Re:why miro is FAIL

[Myopic]

Boy, there's a lot of Miro haters on Slashdot today. I used Miro as a television interface a while back, but didn't look at it recently until I saw this story on Slashdot. If Miro will enable my Mac to sync to my Archos tablet, then I'll definitely use it instead of iTunes, which won't do that. I'll be one step closer to shedding Apple, which would be nice. I don't see why everyone is so down on Miro, and I can't figure out when hating on open source became cool at Slashdot. If it does all the things you mentioned could be done with sundry software, all in one nice package, then that's quite compelling.

Still blows up for no good reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Tried after I had given up on it quite awhile ago. I figured, hey, new version, might work this time...

Nope, XP version died playing ripped CD material after 1/2 hour. I removed it immediately. This was audio, not even video !

Sorry guys, maybe version 5 or 6...

Re:Still blows up for no good reason

[Noughmad]

Don't we all know that 4.0 is the crashing-and-burning version, and that we should wait at least until 4.2?

Only 3.5 in Ubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no Miro 4 for Ubuntu Natty. Vapourware

the bug mentioned in this post is fixed

[Anonymous Coward]

The Windows bug referenced in the 'rough edges' link has been fixed in Miro 4.0.1 which is available on the Miro website now.

Re:9 reasons Miro is not better than what I use no

[Anonymous Coward]

It's got a couple of show stoppers for me:

1) mp3 Tags not supported, leading to
2) music organised by file name which is rather shit if you have a naming system that doesn't fit their expected...
3) inability to organise media. album? genre? grouping for series of videos?
4) no random
5) the setting "play video and audio items one after another" or "stop after each video or audio item". I want audio to continue, but I like to watch ONE video at a time thank you!

Unfortunately the prettiness fails to be backed up by functionality!

An older version of Miro, deleted content

[Anonymous Coward]

For a time I used Miro to download and to store youtube videos. At some point (maybe a newer version) decided to delete everything in my library of downloaded content. I don't care if Miro is open source or not, I just spit on it and I will never use it anymore.

Any alternatives?

[Vektuz]

So now that they've finally bloated it to the point that it looks like and slugs like one of the apps I'll never ever allow on my computer and absolutely hate the look and feel of (itunes), what good alternatives are there for someone who just wants to auto-download RSS-feed-driven podcast type videos automatically? Bonus points for not having a web browser or video player inside it. I have a web browser. I have a video player. Both are better than any embedded one could ever be.

Re:Any alternatives?

[Risen888]

What about Gpodder?