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US Pays $2B To Develop Concentrating Solar Power Projects
coondoggie writes "The US Department of Energy today said it was conditionally committing $2 billion to develop two concentrating solar power projects that it says will offer 500 megawatts of power combined, effectively doubling the nation's currently installed capacity of that type of power. Concentrated solar systems typically use parabolic mirrors to collect solar energy."
I haven't read TFA of course, but I would assume they mean solar-thermal, where a medium is used as a buffer to store the heat, and provide power when the sun isn't shining.
A link to the actual press release
First of all, these aren't grants or direct money (as the summary seems to imply), they're loan guarantees. And if you read the press release, it's pretty clear this is a helluva lot less about producing clean energy than producing jobs in California.
Like so many government-funded and government-backed programs these days (NASA, I'm looking in your direction), this is basically a just a jobs program. Some Senator gets to go back to his district and say he created jobs. Whether these plants actually ever create any energy is anyone's guess.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Both plants have thermal storage so I'm assuming that's their base load rating.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Anyone care to take bets on how long before some senator/representative (likely from a state where coal or oil extraction is a major source of revenue) denounces this as the perfect example of government waste and interference in "free market" for energy?
Lets start refering to The War Against Terror by it's initials. . .
TFT talks about a payment, but if you follow links you end up at this page which talks about loan guarantees instead.
Is concentrating solar power into "power plants" the best way? Wouldn't it make more sense to distribute the collection over a large area, namely every persons house?
I only partially agree. The short-term impact of the manufacturing jobs is lost. The long-term impact of developing the manufacturing tech here is lost. The equipment and the power that it generates is gained.
I generally agree that it would be good to see the manufacturing developed here--preferably adjacent to where these things will be used. Since the finished goods have to be shipped there, it might make sense to ship the raw materials there and build them too. Then again, it might not. There's a lof analysis involved, and you can be surprised at the conclusions of good analysis. It might make perfectly good sense to make the stuff on the other side of the world and ship it here.
Yes. Trade deficits, blah, blah. At the end of the day they have falling bonds and weak dollars. We have a physical plant. This reminds me a lot of the fear that people expressed when the Japanese were buying high profile buildings here in the 80s. We're not going to lose anything if the "shit hits the fan". They have a piece of paper that says they own something. We have the something, surrounded by guns.
The "enough to power X number of homes" is therefore a kind of fraud.
Dog is my co-pilot.
Actual information about the Mojave Solar Project can be found here and here.
The technology used in the MSP isn't entirely new (has been used in at least one other plant) but looks to be an incremental improvement.
The plant features heat storage using molten salt, and won't be using fossil fuels as nighttime backup.
Basically focusing the suns rays into a laser beam that super heats salt. The superheated salt runs a steam turbine. Of course the mirrors could be focused to take down overhead aircraft or satellites as well.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
$2B in loan guarantees for 100,000 homes. I wonder if they're guaranteeing the entire cost of the plants or just a part of the financing.
That would work out to $20k per home.
Average monthly bill for a home is approximately $100 a month. So $1200 per year. 12 year pay-off ignoring operating expenses and maintenance.
Sounds like a good investment.
According to TFA, it sounds like this effort is as much to generate jobs in California as it is to generate power.
He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
Why does the government need to guarantee loans? Because it doesn't make enough sense for sane people to back. If it will pay for itself and give reasonable return while generating cost-competetive power, it doesn't need the governement guaranteeing it with your money. Unless they've already succeeded in their campaign to destroy the ability to raise free capital in this country.
Does your proposal come with a free unicorn?
EGS is not that cheap, or anywhere close to it. And the tech is less mature than solar thermal. And I say this as a big EGS supporter (actually, I've moved more towards SWEGS, which is a particular variant of EGS).
Seen on a Japanese food processor: "Not to be used for the other use."
Really? Only $2Bil? When we are spending $708 Billion on defense? Why are we only putting up 0.0028% of the annual defense budget towards renewable, clean energy like this? Not sure how this makes sense. While it is nice to see a number in the Billions being put towards a project like this, I have a hard time taking the initiatives seriously when there are so many other bloated budgets we could chop down in size to put towards initiatives like this...
"I hope you know how very lucky you are to know me, because I am so incredibly incredible."
I believe that these projects use molten salt to store energy and produce power through most of the night as well. I could be wrong, just what i remember from similar stories in the past.
Which political party here has been actively trying to stop 'green' technologies?
The old mantra of the GOP being the 'pro business' party would be laughable if it wasn't so sad. They only the pro 'current big biz who pays us' party.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Trade deficits, blah, blah. At the end of the day they have falling bonds and weak dollars. We have a physical plant.
Better to have the world buying your tech, then you having to buy theirs, no?
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Solar thermal concentrating power stations to provide electricity to run air conditioning.
Deleted
Yes as having power generated at the site of usage removes the transmission loss from the equation thus improving overall energy usage efficiency.
No because most all solar power used at residences are silicone panel collectors, which use a lot more raw materials for the energy output they produce compared to concentrating arrays (which use lots of space with mirrors which are much cheaper to produce (both in costs and energy/waste usage) than panels for the same energy output, but require more physical space.
So like everything there are pros and cons. Since most people don't own enough space where motorized mirrors can be placed, you don't see many concentrating solor power installed at residences.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Yes. Trade deficits, blah, blah. At the end of the day they have falling bonds and weak dollars. We have a physical plant. This reminds me a lot of the fear that people expressed when the Japanese were buying high profile buildings here in the 80s.
This isn't an office building, nor is it a museum relic. It's not going to last forever, nor is it going to be sufficient for supplying power forever. Any kind of power plant requires well-trained people to keep it running, and if you plan to use more power in the future (which everyone should, unless you're in Detroit), then you're going to need to either upgrade this plant or build more of them. If all the expertise to do all this resides with foreign companies, then you're stuck with having to go back to them when you need to expand in the future, or if you have any big problems. This isn't a very good situation to be in with your vital infrastructure.
The Japanese buying big office buildings isn't the same. It's pretty trivial for a company to move all its offices out of one building and into another one down the street in case the new landlord tries to double rent. Sure, it takes a bit of money to hire movers and change the letterhead and set up the cubicles and install new network cabling, but it's really not a big deal. It's a totally different matter when your power plant supplier wants 5x as much for a second plant which you absolutely need in order to avoid rolling blackouts.
Yep, typical values for thermal storage are 18-36 hours of rated generating capacity, which in the southwest should be more than sufficient for anything but a one in a million event.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Can't we just build nuclear plants? They're awesome. They'll provide cheap power for our kids and grandkids to enjoy.
Nothing particularly wrong with that. Of course that shouldn't lead to building white elephants, but if this technology would mean jobs are created within the country that's a good thing. The employees will spend their money inside the country and pay tax rather than needing assistance by the state.
result in killing funny lookin furiners in order to seize their resources, or create a darker black for velvet Elvis artwork, scientific knowledge tends to have a way of finding uses. Reality is not just limited to the whining of a few loud individuals who don't want to grow up and actually pay for the tab they've rung up.
"The project is expected to bring 1,200 green construction jobs and, when completed, approximately 80 permanent jobs to this desert area." Abengoa Solar signs contract with PG&E to supply solar power in California, 2 billion dollars for 160 permanent jobs, hope the rest of the financials make more sense.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Does your proposal come with a free unicorn?
pleasesayyespleasesayyespleasesayyes...
First is the same reason why solar plants are such a pain to situate, they take far more area per MW than any fossil/nuclear plant. Already there are people suing to stop some of these new solar plants over their affect on a rare turtle that lives in one part of the desert. Plus panels need maintenance, this includes cleaning. Do we want a neighborhood of idiots trying to clean panels (where do they get the water for that I wonder) let alone the fact many would never do it meaning the ROI would be horrible. Then comes another kicker, all the power coming randomly into the grid which would make it murder for power companies to manage. Lets toss out one more, all that gasoline to power the service vehicles traveling from house to house to do check ups. Suddenly that green power ain't so green. We could make a bigger case against wind power this way as well.
Its all fun and games, the number one profiteer of wind energy is GE and we know who they are friends with, so who are the people really behind these new solar installations and which politicians do they own?
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
"if these are manufactured here. If this work goes to China (or spain), it really is a waste of money."
Not if the US can purchase the products. After all, we owe the modern personal computer to American invention and Chinese manufacturing.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
$2B for a measely 500kwh? Pathetic! Solar just won't cut it. It's a technology for sunny states, but not so much for the rest of the nation. Shame GreenPeace isn't allowing cold states to develop alternate energy solutions that work in states with weather.
Only the dead have seen the end of War. - Plato
Unfortuantely no, the 500 MW is theoretical peak operational capacity, you know, if the plants were located in magical 24/7 daylight zone on the equator. So you can expect about 1/3 of that value to be actually produced.
I know it's a govt. project, but still. This makes nuclear look cheap.
You want to see stuff built here? Then pass the Fair Tax. 22% of the price of goods built here is composed of the income tax costs to businesses that manufacture here. About half that is recoverable if income taxes went away, as they would if the Fair Tax was passed. That one thing would revitalize this country, end the recession practically overnight, and make the USA the newest, bestest tax haven for manufacturing on the planet.
Or we can continue to "get those greedy b*****rds that are making profits, and... shoot ourselves in the foot every time. Corporate income taxes are an abomination, because corporations don't pay them. That's because the don't have any money. Corporate money looks like this:
Corporate$$$ = Customer$$$ + Employee$$$ + Stockholder$$$
So, try to "punish" a corporation with taxes, and customers simply pay more for goods, employees see smaller or no raises, and stockholders suffer smaller or absent dividends.
And all that means that businessmen do the right thing for their business and manufacture overseas.
How much space will this take, vs. windturbines or other such techs.....i mean the problem is these arrays are all radar shaped, no?
so the biggest is going to take a big chunk of land with almost no real capacity for upward development, where as an empty but full blown 120 story skyscraper in the middle of the desert, with all that solar panel paint they have been talking about might be able to generate alot more energy for alot less space horizontally, as well, you can also make many skyscrapers side by side....being they will be empty also might make it less costly to built.
If you think that the difference in manufacturing costs between China and the US could be closed by moving to a "Fair Tax", you might want to get a friend who can add to help you before you go shopping, or you're going to get stiffed every time. Company directors would be failing in their fiduciary duties if they repatriated jobs to the US simply based on a 22% or similar cut in the costs of manufacturing in the US following introduction of a new tax regime. There are order of magnitude differences in the cost base.
That's f**king crazy. $4000 / kW - they might as well be using consumer photovoltaics. If that's base load then the figure becomes roughly correct, but still... at the 500mW scale, shouldn't they be getting SOME economies of scale?
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
It's not quite that bad ... $4000 / kW (which ignores storage losses, but hey) still translates to
1 year life : 0.45$ / kWh ...
2 year life : 0.225$ / kWh
10 year life : 0.045 $ / kWh
20 year life : 0.0225 $ / kWh
Still, more expensive than nuclear ($2500-$3000 /kW capacity), lots more expensive than coal.
For that amount of money we can generate all the Power that the US can use. Gravity Control can be used to generate power for 1 cent per Kilowatt or less.. It is based on the technology, used by the Flying Saucer, which I discovered and patented. It was offered to Nasa, so that the Shuttles would be independent of rocket power and would be able to reach the ISS in one hour, the Moon in a Couple of Hhours and even Mars within on day, It was rejected. It would make the Heavy Lifter obsolete So now I can offer it for power generation. These big spheres under a Saucer are the Propulsion Units (PU) They can lift a 10 or 100 ton vehicle off the ground using a small amount of energy with the technology. A PU can also lift a weight in a Silo to maximum height. When it is released, it can activate the generator(s). A Power Station would consist of two Silos, working alternating. It can be built in Micro-, Mega- or Gigawatt size. No pollution. No fuel needed after start-up. It can even be buried up to ground level or be used by ships. The PUs would be LEASED to give investors and Taxman their due.
You have any numbers for actually comparison?
I do.
It takes 30 - 33 hours for the Detroit-based auto companies to build a car. Wages are about $78/hr as a cost to the company, including the benefits and pension expenses and so forth. That's about $2500 of labor in each car. But for a $40K SUV, the tax costs to the company could be around $8,800.
Now, the US auto companies are ALREADY competitive with the foreign car companies, so think how much better they would compete first if the could enslave the workforce, and take $2,500 off the price of their cars, or maybe recover even half of the $8,800 that it is costing them in taxes to build the car. $40,000 SUV becomes a $35,600 SUV with no US income tax expense? Think it would be more competitive?
Jobs are created, as well as absolute zero pollution is generated during operation. It rivals nukes for that, consumes nothing that must be trucked to the site nor produces anything that must be trucked away from the site. I think it is "the answer" for long-term energy production as soon as we figure out the magic battery that can be charged up and will run things like cars, trucks, trains, etc. Trains can even have electricity delivered by overhead wires.
Seriously? You think that an 11% cut in the costs of a $40k US car would be make a really material difference in its competitiveness vs foreign car companies? You think that foreign car companies won't respond by innovating to cut their pricing yet further?
Did you not read about the Tata Nano? $2.5k for a car. Sure, a POS that you wouldn't touch with a bargepole, but the point is that *that* is the kind of pricing achievable with an Indian cost base.
"You think that foreign car companies won't respond by innovating to cut their pricing yet further?"
No. If they could, they would. Now. That way, they'd capture more of the market. But the fact that they haven't indicates that they can't.
"Did you not read about the Tata Nano?"
Yeah, I did. It's a pile of c***. Read where one caught fire on the way home from the showroom. They can make go-karts all they want, but they wouldn't sell here, so it doesn't matter.
And yeah, a $35.6K SUV that used to be $40K would sell much better, and take market share away from foreign manufacturers that would get no such price break. IOW, the Fair Tax amounts to a tariff, in that it lowers domestic prices but not foriegn prices.
OK, we're now entering the realms of true fuckwittery.
"No. If they could [lower their prices], they would. Now. That way, they'd capture more of the market. But the fact that they haven't indicates that they can't."
Erm. Revenues = Prices * Volume. Manufacturers will make a tradeoff between pricing and volume. And manufacturers -- and indeed every commercial enterprises -- certainly do respond to pricing pressure by cutting their own costs base further and finding new ways to do so. This is the story of SouthWestern and the other low cost carriers. It's (part of) the story of Toyota.
Sheesh. If you're gonna get a hard-on for pro-business gimmicks, you'll sound a lot more credible if you don't get basic commercial economics wrong.