UK Hacker Ryan Cleary Has Asperger's Syndrome, Court Told

An anonymous reader writes "Ryan Cleary, the British teenager accused of launching DDoS attacks at the likes of the Serious Organised Crime Agency (Soca) has been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, a court heard [Saturday]."

Comments

First post

[Anonymous Coward]

First post

Re:First post

[Anonymous Coward]

What has happened to slashdot? A few weeks ago there were only very rarely 'first posts', and never any goatse links. Now it seems suddenly almost every article has a 'first post', and goatse links appear often again as if we're in the late 90's!

Re:First post

[Anonymous Coward]

True, and I don't know why. But I'm more bothered by the asshole moderators who thoughtlessly mod posts down as troll or flamebait for no reason other than that they don't like them. There didn't used to be as many of them either.

Re:First post

[tripleevenfall]

Did that turnip truck roll through town again already?

Re:First post

[TheRaven64]

They rewrote the metamoderation system so that no one bothers anymore. I used to, but the new system is pointless, and as a result there is no correction for mod abuse. They also broke the code that added rel="nofollow" to links to discourage link spam. This is fixed now, but it was broken for several months, which is why you see so much spam these date (someone should write a dissertation on diss).

Re:First post

[retchdog]

summer vacation. june is slashdot's september.

Re:First post

[Culture20]

They rewrote the metamoderation system so that no one bothers anymore. I used to, but the new system is pointless, and as a result there is no correction for mod abuse.

No kidding. At least with the old one, you were actually moderating the moderation (was this post funny? was this post unfairly modded flamebait?). Now it's just "Do you like this comment?" It's the forum equivalent to "Do you like me? []yes []no".

Re:First post

[Savantissimo]

What do you have to do to get mod points these days? I haven't gotten any in years. My karma has always been excellent - I thought it was because I had stopped commenting so often, but after a few months of commenting and getting modded up much more often than down,still no points. Yet some people seem to have points to burn - I've gotten modded down four times in the past few days, just out of spite, so far as I can tell. Each mod was as "overrated" even though I think only one post of the four had been previously modded up. Am I on some kind of no-mod-points blacklist, or what?

Re:First post

[TheRaven64]

I think the random number generator is not very reliable. I've had mod points quite a lot recently. The only times I've ever used them, I've been mod-bombing persistent trolls (even their non-troll posts). If metamod were working correctly, this would mean that all of my moderations would be marked as unfair and I wouldn't get any more mod points. The fact that I just got given another 5 implies that it's horribly broken.

Re:First post

[mcgrew]

You should have posted this as a journal entry rather than a comment. With their new setup, your journal will be on the front page, at least for a little while.

At any rate, I actually went years without mod points -- but I was commenting prolifically, and seldom being modded down. Once in a while someone will modbomb me and I'll get a page of moderations in the "messages" page all modded down.

I went a month or so without commenting -- extra busy month at work and just glanced at stories to see if there were any new tech developments I'd missed elsewhere and started getting mod points out the yinyang. Sometimes I'd have mod points left and get more before they expired. Someone on my fans list (I friend anyone who friends me and read their journals, and for nobody) posted a journal asking why it seemed he got few points, only five at a time, and I had fifteen fresh points that morning. Started posting more often during a slow period at work and the mod points dried up.

There are a few asshats gaming the system with sock puppets, or at least that's a hypothesis put forward in someone's journal, and it seems reasonable to me. I occasionally get modbombed, but I just don't worry about it. My karma's never suffered (have a look at the number of +5s I've gotten since they started the "achievements" pages).

If your karma's good enough you can metamod any time -- that's where I saw this comment (and sorry, but I had to mod you offtopic, and am downmodding myself with the "no bonus" checkboxes). The way the new metamoderation works is strange and I wish they'd bring the old way back. It's like moderating without limits -- I've even seen my own comments while metamoderating!

At any rate, hope this was informative (but if anyone moderates it, please mod me offtopic).

Re:First post

[eugene ts wong]

Have you been getting them 5 at a time? I have been getting them 15 at a time, and often times I wouldn't be able to finish using them, before getting more. I only modded up as insightful, interesting, or informative.

Re:First post

[TheRaven64]

Yup, only 5 at a time, although I seem to get a new set of 5 almost as soon as I finish using them.

Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[MichaelSmith]

Looks like the UK Government are going to help him with his fear of open spaces.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Sulphur]

Looks like the UK Government are going to help him with his fear of open spaces.

Socialized medicine again?

--

The amnesia epidemic has been forgotten

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Anonymous Coward]

>Looks like the UK Government are going to help him with their fear of open sources

There, fixed that for you..

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Anonymous Coward]

What they probably wont help with, is his fear of getting touched ... down there ... by giant hairy men in prison.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Anonymous Coward]

He does claim to suffer from agoraphobia. But I don't think it means what you think it means. Generally agoraphobia is associated with extreme cases of social anxiety.

The Asperger's and agoraphobia claims here are being used to help him get less restrictive conditions. It is being argued that prison could cause severe harm to his mental state.

This is an important distinction because mental illness (with the exception of sociopathy) can't really be claimed to be a mitigating factor to a pre-meditated crime. To put it bluntly, being an asshole and being mentally ill are independent traits.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[rainmouse]

What they probably wont help with, is his fear of getting touched ... down there ... by giant hairy men in prison.

Actually the whole anal fetish that springs up as soon as one is put behind bars is purely an American phenomenon.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Hazel Bergeron]

Sort of. A disorder can filter your perceptions to the extent that you plan something based on completely unreasonable assumptions. For example, you could be so paranoid that someone is planning to kill you that you plan how you'd defend yourself by killing them. A slight transgression on their part might be interpreted as a sign that they're about to kill you, so you take your planned action.

Of course, the number of murders where mental illness is considered to be a contributing factor are going down year on year in the UK. The psychiatric profession has been pushed into spreading a political "it's your own fault!" attitude in which the assumption is that almost everyone is in control of himself and just needs to pull himself together. Since the brain is no less a biological organ than a leg, you might as well chastise those in wheelchairs for not just trying harder to walk.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like the UK Government are going to help him with his fear of sodomy...

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not at all like chastising wheelchair users. It would be, if failing to walk caused serious crimes instead of mildly inconveniencing people.

Just because you understand WHY a person is an asshole doesn't make them not an asshole. It is their fault they commit crimes. The only difference is you understand them better than somebody without a diagnosed mental disorder.

If you could reliably cure a mental disorder, then fine, it's a mitigating factor because it isn't present anymore. If they're mentally disabled, forever (or recurringly), in a way that makes them prone to criminality, then they're exactly the sort of people that need to be removed from society.

But anyway my understanding here is that nobody is saying it isn't fully his fault because of these (which AFAIK are orthogonal to criminality). They're saying that in this case the usual punishment inflicts disproportionate harm because of these traits.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Hazel Bergeron]

It's not at all like chastising wheelchair users.

Well, the proper purpose of locking someone up is to protect society or themselves. This means you choose a custodial sentence on those grounds, not on the grounds of punishment / blame / responsibility / etc. There is no benefit in chastising either the mad murderer or the wheelchair user, though obviously society needs to tackle the problems of each in a different way.

From the PoV of treatment of the individual, it is then absolutely important that you apply a scientifically sound understanding of the human brain rather assuming a political/philosophical simplification of a rational mind having made poor decisions of his own free will.

And, as you say, it might neither serve this guy nor his victims/potential victims to be locked up.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[erroneus]

I think you are confusing cause and effect. Consider a person with turret's calling you an asshole versus someone without calling you an asshole. One effect is far easier to overlook and/or forgive than the other. What your reasoning permits is diagnosis and punishment based on effect without consideration of the cause.

People with asperger's have to learn social behavior in ways that are not required by typical people who seem to get it all quite naturally. (Some people identify the asperger's afflicted as people "without social skills" but it's deeper than that.) I can tell you first-hand that it is easy for a person with such a condition to fall into deep pits of various emotional states which can and do alter their perceptions of innocent, every-day interactions. It can take years or even decades for a person with this condition to learn how to sense his own imbalances and to respond accordingly... when and if allowed. (For example, if angered and not given the opportunity to balance himself, a downward spiral could result in behavior that would otherwise be unimaginable.) So it is most definitely true that a person with that affliction requires a certain amount of latitude.

For people who are not deeply familiar with the condition, it is only understandable by its results... "he's awkward" "he's an asshole" "he flips out for no good reason" "he's like a robot." To say "these are exactly the people that should be locked away" is unreasonable as people with asperger's can be treated with therapy and teaching. What you see as "mental disability" is not quite as simple as your label wants to make it.

And in case you haven't noticed, there has been a steady increase in this type of disorder in developed society and finding its cause(s) has been hampered by most of the industries which appear to be connected with it including the food, pharma and chemical industries and more. To say that there is a "genetic predisposition" by itself is not enough as other factors must also be present. (For example, some people are genetically more resistant to getting lung cancer and can smoke their entire lives without ill effects while others are weak enough to get it through second-hand smoke.) The same can be said for propensity to addictive disorders. Should people with a higher propensity to addictive disorders also be locked away for their own good and that of society? How about people with propensity for obesity? What I am pointing out is a slippery slope that you are apparently unable to recognize.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Anonymous Coward]

Well those damn crips should just try harder. I see nothing wrong with that. Hell, they already get the close parking spaces. Why should I be punished with longer walks because my legs function properly? Its nothing more than government sanctioned discrimination!

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey there Jorge Bastida! See you're not doing well http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2253808&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=36521452 do you always run after making a fool of yourself?

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Hazel Bergeron]

Consider a person with turret's calling you an asshole versus someone without calling you an asshole. One effect is far easier to overlook and/or forgive than the other.

It depends entirely on why I'm being called an asshole and how disruptive the name-calling is. If someone with Tourette's loudly and repeatedly calls me an asshole in the middle of a library, interrupting other users, then it is entirely appropriate to remove him. The third time he does the same thing in a week, it is appropriate to temporarily ban him from the library. If someone without Tourette's does the same thing, the same applies.

But in each case the help the person needs to stop that behaviour is different. A good librarian will hopefully make re-entry to the library dependent on seeking appropriate help.

As for me, the target of the insult, a similar story applies. If the guy has an anger management issue, say, I would feel no worse about them than if they had Tourette's. If they were a danger to me as well then I might distance myself quickly, and if over time I found them to not be making the effort at decency I might drift away from them, but otherwise I'll try to see the problem for what it is and encourage them to do the same and to seek help.

A brain is just a complex machine. Every human has a reason for acting a certain way, rational or otherwise. If you spend enough time then you'll find something out about those reasons and might be able to help. There's no asshole/not-asshole binary. The only problem is a finite amount of time/energy/interest in the world to deal with everyone else's problems, so prioritising becomes essential :-).

For people who are not deeply familiar with the condition, it is only understandable by its results... "he's awkward" "he's an asshole" "he flips out for no good reason" "he's like a robot."

These alone are not reasons to lock anyone up, except perhaps "he flips out" if the flipping out is dangerous. I think you've read something into my post which is not there. What I'm suggesting is treatment always to fit the condition and loss of freedom iff someone is a serious danger (in a sense which needs carefully defining) - not locking someone up just because he's a little bit annoying.

people with asperger's can be treated with therapy and teaching.

Agreed.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[_133MHz]

Consider a person with turret's calling you an asshole

Clearly that person has been playing too much Portal.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Anonymous Coward]

To say "these are exactly the people that should be locked away" is unreasonable as people with asperger's can be treated with therapy and teaching. What you see as "mental disability" is not quite as simple as your label wants to make it.

Seeing as how APK is stalking you, is he the exception that proves the rule?

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Anonymous Coward]

You know you don't suffer from Asperger's when you take twice as long as an aspie to complete Portal but only got one tenth the enjoyment out of it.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Anonymous Coward]

Jorge old buddy, what's up (see replies below parent) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2253808&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=36521452

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[russotto]

Actually the whole anal fetish that springs up as soon as one is put behind bars is purely an American phenomenon.

In the UK, it's generally instilled in public schools, yes?

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[artor3]

There is another reason to lock people up -- to dissuade others from following in their footsteps. If you set the precedent that something as mild as Asperger's syndrome is an excuse to get away with crimes, then it will only serve to add to the feeling of invulnerability that leads these Anonymous jackasses to hurt people.

The only time that a mental issue can be a good reason not to punish someone is if that mental issue made it impossible for them to understand what they were doing.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[cyclomedia]

I'm aspergeric, or whatever, or at least I was until I was 27 when I stopped (or at least, heavily regulated) my introspective musings about how every human interaction I'd endured had worked out (I once upset someone in a way that they probably had forgotten about the next day, I worried about it for years!) and started treating humans as a kind of scientific study.

People used to think I was arrogant (presumably because of being super pedantic), a robot (presumably because of my constant un-emotional state) and awkard. I used to suffer from depression and insomnia. I now have friends, a steady job, go out instead of staying in hiding and even get laid occasionally. Inside I'm still the same person but I think if you wear the disguise long enough you start to become the disguise...

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Hal_Porter]

Consider a person with turret's calling you an asshole versus someone without calling you an asshole.

If a person has turrets I'd be very careful about pissing him off.

On the other hand if he was another self diagnosed Internet assburger case, let's face it huge wedgie is in order. And basically prison is the adult version of giving the class tard a huge wedgie when they misbehave.

Also this

http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Asperger's_Syndrome#Assburgers_on_ED

Assburgers is a made-up disease, most common in overachieving middle-class families, because little Johnny is either a social outcast, or is just acting fucking retarded. The parents diagnose their child, and the "doctors" go along with and encourage it because of the money it generates. Fuckers. The truth is, the Assburgers diagnosis has become popular with parents because they need a good excuse as to why their "retarded rechildren are dumb faggots who will be dying alone."

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[erroneus]

Word.

That is exactly the way it works for some people. Exactly. However, you probably also know the term "autism spectrum" and have come to know that some people have it slightly worse or easier than you do. You're a long way from counting toothpicks in the blink of an eye, but you're also not quire like everyone else and still notice things that escape the casual observation of others. You have written in RAM what others have in ROM so to speak.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Maritz]

Higher detection rates and a widening of the diagnosis are ample to explain the apparent rise. Not definite of course but to pin it on those things (food, pharma and chemical industries) is to make something of an unsupported claim, no?

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[tehcyder]

Well, the proper purpose of locking someone up is to protect society or themselves. This means you choose a custodial sentence on those grounds, not on the grounds of punishment / blame / responsibility / etc.

That is simply not true. Prison sentences are a punishment, pure and simple. You could only protect sociey effectively by locking up even minor criminals for life.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[tehcyder]

Consider a person with turret's calling you an asshole /quote> Being called an asshole by a man-castle hybrid would be pretty weird.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[tehcyder]

Fuck me, we've now moved on on slashdot from self-diagnosing autism to self-curing it

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[erroneus]

I'm pointing out that those industries do the most to hamper such research. It has also be shown that a variety of foods do, in fact, enhance the problems experienced by many. Processed wheat is a major contributor to many who experience the problems of high functioning autism and it has been shown that a highly controlled diet (unsurprisingly natural and organic foods) moves the afflicted to an almost normal state.

I don't seek to pin it entirely on the things we end up taking into our bodies. As I prefaced earlier, I recognize the fact that groups of people are entirely immune to a wide variety in toxins and can resist all manner of things that, for example, normally lead to cancer. Furthermore, two people eating exactly the same foods in the same volume can result very differently where one can become morbidly obese and suffer from diabetes while the other remains thin an visibly healthy.

What this does indicate is that the more we stray from "good foods" the more pronounced and varied we see problems arise; problems that don't affect everyone, but many in increasing numbers as more and more unfood-like items are allowed into our foods.

By the standards you are suggesting, there is nothing wrong with smoking at all and that it doesn't cause cancer. Instead, what we are seeing is a handful of people who can live very healthy and long lives while smoking a pack a day and everyone else is a genetic anomaly.

I tend to look at it from the other end: What's good for everyone is invariably good for everyone. (This is not accounting for specific allergies.) If we limit the things that aren't good for everyone, we would see a general increase in the quality of life for everyone.

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Eulogistics]

You could only protect sociey effectively by locking up even minor criminals for life.

Part of the idea of the prison system is that the punishment reforms people. When you go out and do a crime, then get thrown in prison for a couple years, the idea is that on release you say to yourself "I sure don't want to sit in prison again. I'll turn over a new leaf and stop doing crime".

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[Eulogistics]

Your symptoms sound a lot like me. Guess I'm Aspergeric (or whatever), who knew?

Re:Cleary also suffers from agoraphobia

[cyclomedia]

Yeah, there's definitely an autism scale that goes from Vulcan to Empath and I'm closer to the left hand side than the mean population, but not massively so. I personally believe that scales apply to everything and that the human tendency to put things in neat boxes is one we need to leave behind. Dyslexia for example and of course sexuality, I personally reckon I'm about 2% homosexual (specifically 2% Androphile vs 98% Gynophile) - doesn't exactly make me Bi as that label suggests a 50/50 split.

What a fool!

[Anonymous Coward]

Asperger's, what a fool!

You don't DDoS the Serious Organised Crime Agency.

Re:What a fool!

[maxwell demon]

Well, maybe he thought it was an agency run by serious organized crime. :-)

Well, thinking again about it, in that case it would have been an even more stupid action to DDoS it ...

Re:What a fool!

[geoffrobinson]

It's not like it's the Very Serious Organised Crime Agency.

Re:What a fool!

[tripleevenfall]

Shirley they can't be serious...

Serious Organized Crime Agency

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that one of those super-villain syndicates from a comic book?

Re:Serious Organized Crime Agency

[rossdee]

I guess they have another department for catching the humourus disoganised criminals

Re:Serious Organized Crime Agency

[NevarMore]

It's called the BBC.

old news

[dutchwhizzman]

I don't have a source ready, but that has been his defense for over a year.

Re:old news

[Anonymous Coward]

wow, how far into the future are you living??

Cleary, who was arrested this week as the result of investigations by Scotland Yard and FBI, appeared at City of Westminster magistrates court in a hearing relating to the five offences under the Criminal Law and Computer Misuse Act with which he has been charged.

Re:old news

[Anonymous Coward]

The GP is thinking of Gary McKinnon

Re:old news

[Anonymous Coward]

Is he thinking of Gary McKinnon?

It's no surprise that many with Asperger's end up in IT.

Re:old news

[Martin S.]

The defence is that the diagnosis would fail the "cruel and unusual punishment test" element of "extradition". Which is intended to prevent extradition to counties that allow capital punishment or torture.

Re:old news

[MightyMartian]

And ultimately on Slashdot. This place is like an Aspergers zoo.

Re:old news

[Ash Vince]

The defence is that the diagnosis would fail the "cruel and unusual punishment test" element of "extradition". Which is intended to prevent extradition to counties that allow capital punishment or torture.

Wrong person!!!!!! You and the previous poster are both talking about Gary Mckinnon, the guy who went hacking US government computers looking for evidence of UFO's. This discussion is about Ryan Cleary, the guy arrested this week for organising denial of service attacks on the SOCA (our FBI), British Phonographic Institute (our RIAA) and the London based International Federation of the Phonographic Industry. There is not currently any talk of extradition as he has already been charged with offences here in the UK.

Re:old news

[1s44c]

Are you sure the UK doesn't extradite to countries that allow torture? There have been plenty of cases of them extraditing suspects to the US over the years.

Re:old news

[Culture20]

This place is like an Aspergers zoo.

But without the breeding program.

Re:old news

[Anonymous Coward]

Cleary, who was arrested this week as the result of investigations by Scotland Yard and FBI, appeared at City of Westminster magistrates court in a hearing relating to the five offences under the Criminal Law and Computer Misuse Act with which he has been charged.

Clearly what? Who has been arrested?

Re:old news

[tehcyder]

The defence is that the diagnosis would fail the "cruel and unusual punishment test" element of "extradition". Which is intended to prevent extradition to counties that allow capital punishment or torture.

In which case the UK should never extradite anyone to the US, as you're fucking hot on both.

Re:old news

[Coren22]

Hmm, can we start that? Slashdot personals, where you can meet other geeks with Aspergers, just like you.

lol

[Anonymous Coward]

"it's not my fault i'm a sociopathic piece of shit"

Re:lol

[Anonymous Coward]

He's stupid too. If I were a sociopath, I'd get a nice job as a politician or CEO.

Re:lol

[CrazyDuke]

IANAHS (I am not a head shrink). And, this is my non-professional opinion, not advice, and not fact. Antisocial Personality Disorder and Asperger's Syndrome are two different things. For one, Sociopaths understand full well the actions they take are harmful to others. That's often the point; and, they don't care the rest of the time.

Interpreting the literature on Asperger's, it appears their lack of comprehension has more to do with having trouble relating to others, not because they don't care. In other words, a lack of comprehension versus a lack of empathy.

That said, I imagine it's not impossible for someone to be aspie and a sociopath. And, there is a relatively common sociopath trick that pops up when they get caught by the legal system: fake a pitiful psychological condition to try to convince people they should get away with it.

Re:lol

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they find it hard to comprehend "This is illegal, doing this will piss off the authorities. Attacking the authorities illegally will *royally* piss off the authorities"? Do they find it hard to comperehend "This isn't just illegal, this is being a total fucking ASSHOLD"?

No fucking "illness" justifies a total lack of moral, ethics or care for other people. I don't give the slightest shit what this prick and his lawyers claims; he should be fined, jailed, barred from ever accessing the internet again (on pain of reimprisonment), and forced to attend weekly lectures where he has it beaten into his poor fragile mind that acting like a cunt can't be justified by any illness.

He's a cunt and so are the people he ran an IRC room for and who promptly disowned him when he was arrested.

Re:lol

[turbidostato]

"No fucking "illness" justifies a total lack of moral, ethics or care for other people."

Except for one which main symptom were "total lack of moral, ethics or care for other people", of course.

Re:lol

[Kiraxa]

"No fucking "illness" justifies a total lack of moral, ethics or care for other people."

Except for one which main symptom were "total lack of moral, ethics or care for other people", of course.

Such an illness, if uncurable, which autistic psychopathy is, renders that not a person, but an animal. No better than a dog. Why are they not kept in a cage? You can try to excuse it's actions by LOLASSBURGERS but the fact of the matter is that it should never have been allowed to live long enough to understand what a computer is, much less allowed to touch a computer.

Re:lol

[Your.Master]

There's a difference between justifies and explains.

Re:lol

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect turbidostato is another of the self-diagnosed asperger's sufferers who litter the internet, so he'll claim either that that isn't true, or that he doesn't understand it, or that someone with asperger's doesn't understand it.

None of which removes the main point which is that anyone who has an absolute lack of a moral code shouldn't be allowed to operate in normal society in the first place and should instead be under controlled conditions. That "normal society" includes the internet, the lack of which would cripple our economies.

Re:lol

[Anonymous Coward]

"No fucking "illness" justifies a total lack of moral, ethics or care for other people. I don't give the slightest shit what this prick"

Ummmmmmm

Re:lol

[rtb61]

That's right regardless of the mental health of the individual they should be made to make restitution. So no different to graffiti vandals who smear buildings with the ugly signs et al, they should be made to clean them and well as paying a fine. So just the same principle should apply to DDosers who vandalise websites, they should clean them up, oh wait, we the attack stops the sites self clean, so 'er', they should pay a fine for temporary non-damaging digital vandalism. We you look at it like that, compared to other crimes, it sounds like a parking fine sized fine is appropriate.

Just like a parking infringement, it's a temporary non-damaging denial of access, gees so what it is the bloody big deal and all the bullshit and hype. This has all the stink of a bunch of lame arsed bureaucrats seeking promotions wildly inflated crimes and their great detecting capabilities in arresting the perpetrators. Could you imagine, park your car in the driveway of a commercial premises, deny access for the customers and go to jail for 5 years, oh yeah, like that'll stick but apparently add cyber to it and it does. Ohh, illegal cyber-parking big extradition fight, hundreds of thousands of dollars spent in stupid pointless court cases and a bunch of nob heads prance about like they've solved the crime of the century.

Re:lol

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that there's no correlation between aspergers and sociopathy.

Re:lol

[CrazyDuke]

I do not know his actual psychological condition. And, I venture a guess that you do not either.

Your conclusion is partially correct, though. However, your justification is flawed as it plays out as a knee-jerk reaction, a red-herring, and is hypocritical to boot.

But, regardless, no... You should never let someone victimize you or others out of pity. You should never let someone victimize yourself or others because they have issues. Doing so only encourages the behavior, and justifies it socially. Knowing what you are dealing with only helps you on how to handle it. But, a lot of people seem to draw a blank when the standard "rules" don't apply and instead will give the perpetrator a free ride rather than adjusting to the difference.

Something to note: while breaking the law and pissing off authority is particular to sociopaths, it is not necessary for APD and psychopathic individuals. Many obey the law enough to where they do not get significantly punished for it and stay out of the hair of authority or even court favor with it if nothing because they can do so much more damage to people outside of a cell than inside. There are plenty of socially accepted and marginally legal ways to gain dominance over people and beat the living shit out of them.

In fact, I venture to guess that many people that are branded as antisocial or psycho colloquially are frequently former victims and victims of victims lashing out at their perceived tormentors. Rage is easily misdirected. Abuse scars the psyche permanently. But, like I said, that does not justify them tormenting others and spreading the problem. This is a tangential though unrelated to this case, but, I wish society would do more to deal with the root of the problem rather than simply isolating the damage after it occurs.

Re:lol

[Anonymous Coward]

Besides the fact it's frequently used as a catch-all defense for sociopathic pieces of shit against a court system too dumb to know the difference and how much a danger it is to just let sociopathic pieces of shit back out on the street, you mean?

Re:lol

[MightyMartian]

Yes, and we should start with your own seeming lack of empathy.

Re:lol

[cheekyjohnson]

Such an illness, if uncurable, which autistic psychopathy is, renders that not a person, but an animal.

An animal? Like all humans are? But, then again, someone's opinion that these people are "evil" is likely not fact, anyway.

Re:lol

[cheekyjohnson]

Abuse scars the psyche permanently.

I'd say that that depends on the person.

But, like I said, that does not justify them tormenting others and spreading the problem.

Whether or not it's a "problem" and whether or not it justifies their actions is up to the individual person to decide.

Re:lol

[turbidostato]

"There's a difference between justifies and explains."

Of course there is. It's not me that would say otherwise.

Re:lol

[CrazyDuke]

No, the scars may heal, but they are still there. How well they heal will depend. Or, to put it into a meme: What has been seen cannot be unseen.

I agree. But, experience tells me that when I and people I have known get cornered and abused by an antisocial individual, the larger group's reaction is to try to coerce the victim into shutting up and taking it indefinitely, not to jump into the middle of a dom-sub relationship. If taking it floats your boat; so be it. I am well aware a large portion of the population likes to use abusive parental substitutes for their own ego issues. Just don't attempt to coerce the unwilling into your, eh, relationship.

Re:lol

[SnarfQuest]

It's not non-damaging for most sites. For retail sits it causes a loss of sales. For information sites it causes a loss of propaganda. Whatever reason the site was created, this nonsense causes that reason to be blocked. It also can cause severe problems to anyone else who resides on that piece of network. Tying up bandwidth doesn't limit itself to a single site, everyone on the network wires between the attacker and the target get hit to some extent.

In the real world, it is like nailing the doors to a business shut, while screaming 4 letter words on a megaphone. It causes the business financial loss. If you park a car intending to block access to a business, then yes, you should go to jail, and be required to pay restitution for loss of business. Especially if you stole the car, like stealing computer time from others to do the blocking.

At the least, his punishment should ban him from internet access for a serious length of time. Even if he is found not guilty because of insanity. If he cannot behave because of mental problems, others should not be punished because of his continued uncontrollable actions..

Re:lol

[cheekyjohnson]

No, the scars may heal, but they are still there.

What scars? Also, what if the individual is able to look back on it and just not care? If you're merely talking about memories, and not being sad from the memories, then it doesn't even matter.

the larger group's reaction is to try to coerce the victim into shutting up and taking it indefinitely

And I'm the same way (unless the 'abuse' is physical) because I'm someone who just doesn't care about the 'offensive' words or beliefs of others. Though I don't know if the same applies to these "larger groups."

Re:lol

[r_a_trip]

Too bad it isn't fashionable anymore to put these inferiors on cattle trains to be gassed at central facilities... /sarcasm

It's scary to see such a degree of lack of compassion. I wonder what makes this poster so much better than the persons he/she so easily condemns.

Re:lol

[tehcyder]

Too bad it isn't fashionable anymore to put these inferiors on cattle trains to be gassed at central facilities... /sarcasm It's scary to see such a degree of lack of compassion. I wonder what makes this poster so much better than the persons he/she so easily condemns.

I expect the original poster has Asperger's. Oh, wait...

Re:lol

[CrazyDuke]

So, you don't want others to force their beliefs on you. But, you gladly force yours on others. How typical.

And, while we're playing dumb: So much for sexual abuse then, eh?

Re:lol

[cheekyjohnson]

So, you don't want others to force their beliefs on you. But, you gladly force yours on others. How typical.

Where did my post imply that? I just said that I don't really care if someone is being abused with words. I don't see how that is forcing my belief on anyone (but, oftentimes, how is it even possible not to do this?). And, even if I did say that, where is the contradiction?

Laws themselves are just a way for society to force its beliefs on everyone, for instance. In the end, it appears that you're working towards your own goals.

And, while we're playing dumb: So much for sexual abuse then, eh?

I don't see where I was playing dumb, but what about it? What kind of "sexual abuse"?

Re:lol

[CrazyDuke]

"Where did my post imply that?"

You said: "Whether or not it's a "problem" and whether or not it justifies their actions is up to the individual person to decide."

Understood as: It's not OK for someone to butt into your relationships and decide what is or is not acceptable for you.

I said: "the larger group's reaction is to try to coerce the victim into shutting up and taking it indefinitely"

You said: "And I'm the same way (unless the 'abuse' is physical) because I'm someone who just doesn't care about the 'offensive' words or beliefs of others. Though I don't know if the same applies to these 'larger groups.'"

Understood as: It's OK for you to butt in and decide for someone else what relationships are or are not acceptable.

Is my comprehension of this portion of this interaction flawed?

To explain: "Larger groups" refers to social groups that are large enough to where the members are not particularly interested in the health and welfare of other individual members.

"In the end, it appears that you're working towards your own goals."

Of course I am. Are you implying that my goals or the means to them are strictly for my own benefit or a detriment to the rest of society? Do you think I should be towing someone else's line? There is a reason I float ideas instead of trying to force them.

"What scars?" (And, playing dumb AKA pretending not to understand) ...for instance

Regardless of how much I would prefer a stronger rational streak in society at large, we as humans are still strongly driven by largely irrational mechanisms. Rational self reflection and overriding irrational behavior is clumsy and prone to being overlooked in moments of high stress.

Re:lol

[cheekyjohnson]

You said: "Whether or not it's a "problem" and whether or not it justifies their actions is up to the individual person to decide."

Understood as: It's not OK for someone to butt into your relationships and decide what is or is not acceptable for you.

I didn't make it clear whether or not I thought it was "okay." I merely said that it is a subjective matter.

You said: "And I'm the same way (unless the 'abuse' is physical) because I'm someone who just doesn't care about the 'offensive' words or beliefs of others. Though I don't know if the same applies to these 'larger groups.'"

Understood as: It's OK for you to butt in and decide for someone else what relationships are or are not acceptable.

Again, I said that it was a subjective matter. But this time, I said that if someone was being 'abused' with words, then I do not really care.

Are you implying that my goals or the means to them are strictly for my own benefit or a detriment to the rest of society?

No. I implied that forcing your beliefs upon others is something that happens on a daily basis. It is something that is difficult to avoid doing (unless everyone believed the exact same thing).

And, playing dumb AKA pretending not to understand

I didn't understand what you meant by "scars."

Re:lol

[CrazyDuke]

Fair enough.

"I implied that forcing your beliefs upon others is something that happens on a daily basis. It is something that is difficult to avoid doing..."

Yes it is. In fact, I have found that when I refuse to and it is expected, people tend to view it as a breach of social protocol. I am not claiming a "holier than thou" position, just saying. I would prefer people make up their own minds more often rather than depending heavily on others for making decisions and adopting beliefs. Naive, I know.

I was using "scars" as an allusion to indicate chronic malformed psychological functioning without having to explicitly define the boundaries of the set. They can be maladaptive emotional states, but are not limited to them to say the least.

Re:lol

[cheekyjohnson]

I would prefer people make up their own minds more often rather than depending heavily on others for making decisions and adopting beliefs.

As would I.

Re:lol

[Coren22]

I have Aspergers, and it most definitely does not include a lack of morals or ethics. It is the inability to properly relate to others, a lack of empathy, an inability to understand other's emotional states.

Re:lol

[Coren22]

BTW, before someone tries to claim that I am self diagnosed, I am not, I was diagnosed with it by psychiatric evaluation from professionals.

Re:lol

[Coren22]

As he was saying, how is this different than a protester chaining themselves to a door to deny entry to that premise? Do we lock up protesters for years for this activity?

He lives in Essex

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that punishment enough?

So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Claiming to suffer from Athelete's Foot or Ingrown Toe Nails may carry more weight...

Re:So what?

[Dr_Barnowl]

Indeed. I probably have Abserger's, I score highly on most of the indicators, my wife (a paediatrician) thinks so, I think so. (I'm also a qualified doctor, but no longer practising). I have not been formally diagnosed, but I don't feel the need to do so.

I've never sought to make it into a "condition". It's not a label I apply to myself. It's just part of the way I am. In some ways, I consider myself fortunate - it's almost certainly a contributor to my facility with computers, a skill that puts bread on my table.

And it definitely doesn't interfere with your ability to distinguish right from wrong, or generate any uncontrollable urges to do "naughty" things.

In some ways, I *would* have like it spotted earlier, because I could have had an easier time of school if people had just explained to me some of the things that people take for granted are "built in", like an understanding of interpersonal relationships. I know I have developed purely intellectual ways of dealing with these things, because I spot myself doing it now. When I did an Asberger's test, I recognized that for many of the questions about social interaction, my answers were not typical of Asberger's - but that I would have answered very differently 20 years ago, largely because I now understand how to form a social niche that I find workable.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dr, if I may ask, why do you keep calling it "Abserger's"?

Re:So what?

[the_raptor]

Exactly. If he had been diagnosed with moderate to severe Autism or something and basically lived inside his own head it might be some excuse for his actions (ie not being able to understand they were criminal). Asperger's syndrome just means you have some of the cognitive issues, particularly in regard to social situations, that people with Autism share. If you have those symptoms to the point they are crippling you will generally get diagnosed with Autism.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

So what if he has Asperger? Are the lawyers implying that he is less responsible for his acts due his condition? Clearly they do not know anything about Asperger's syndrome and in fact are offending people with this kind of syndrome, this simply infuriates me, people with Asperger around the world are trying HARD to demonstrate that they can behave as normal as anybody else and this lawyers come with this just to save this guy's Ass, thats plain irresponsible!

Not to contest your point, since I'm not at all up on what organized aspies are up to, but for myself, I feel I'd rather not behave as normally as I feel a normal person is expected to behave. I'd very much like for society to just let me be odd. I don't want to keep trying to fit in.

I didn't know I had aspergers (or that's what they tell me) before I was in my thirties. And, if at all, it's a mild case. I've totally ruined my finances. I can't keep a regular job and can't get anything done. I've simply failed at life, from a normal, middle class perspective.

In other respects I'm a swell person. I'd just want to hang around with the few other oddballs I've somehow managed to amass around me. A meager pension would be sweet. That's unlikely, though. I gotta find a job with not much expectations or frustration. Preferably from home at my computer. Too bad I didn't geek out enough on the computers to be a developer or some such. That's possibly due to the ADD...

Re:So what?

[c]

So what if he has Asperger? Are the lawyers implying that he is less responsible for his acts due his condition?

Yep.

Their job is to find absolutely anything which will get their client off and/or decrease the sentence. Doesn't matter if it's a medical condition, addiction, or something nasty like child sexual abuse, it's their duty to represent it to the court as something which drove the behaviour.

The prosecution will, of course, be digging up evidence that the kid is some kind of Machiavellian criminal mastermind using his inhuman hacking skills to springboard to world domination...

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

They have Dyslexia as well.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

this lawyers come with this just to save this guy's Ass, thats plain irresponsible!

Yeah, imagine that, a lawyer trying to bail out his client.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, thats fairly odd, considering he is a doctor and he has the condition. You would think he would know how its spelled.

Re:So what?

[splodus]

I don't know what this means legally exactly but in UK law there is the defense of 'diminished responsibility'. For example, someone who would normally be convicted of murder may instead be convicted of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility if they were suffering from an abnormality of mind.

However what you seem to be suggesting is that if someone with a previously diagnosed condition would like it to be taken into account, then they shouldn't if sufferers of that condition usually try to get on with their lives? If so I think that's a difficult point to argue. Those with schizophrenia try to live normal lives and take responsibility for their actions but surely no one would claim that a sufferer who commits a crime whilst experiencing delusions was responsible.

It's a matter of degree. I once had someone with asperger's in one of my classes and it was very difficult indeed. She once walked into my colleague's office, ignoring him completely, and began browsing his bookshelf! Now, if she had walked out with one of those books, would she have been responsible for theft? Legally? Of course. Compassionately? I would make allowances based on her condition...

Re:So what?

[max]

Keep calling? What are you mumbling about? In the GP there is ONE mention of "Abserger's" and TWO mentions of "Asberger's".

I seriously doubt that this counts as "keep calling". Being a wise-ass about a typo is just stupid. Then again, what can one expect from an AC at slashdot?

Re:So what?

[InterStellaArtois]

In the similar case of Gary McKinnon - who also has aspergers - his defence argued that extradition would be severely detrimental to his health. Being chucked in one of those super-jails - sharing a room with 12 other convicts - doesn't go too well with the typical inability to adapt to new routines or environments, found in those with the condition. I think he said he'd commit suicide if he had to go.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

The hearing that this was raised in was a bail hearing.
The aim of this is not to establish guilt or innocence, only to decide whether to allow the defendant to go on bail. So the lawyers were likely making suggestions along the lines that a person with Aspergers syndrome requires more care than a standard inmate (and/or has specialised needs), and thus should not be held in custody awaiting trial. I don't believe he has even entered a plea yet (I could be incorrect here).

Re:So what?

[Seumas]

Agreed. I don't mean to dismiss Aspergers, because I know that there are some people that it actually applies to and who are actually impacted (to some degree) by symptoms of it. Like the inability to discern certain social and facial/emotional cues. However, since it first became a "thing" a few years ago, 90% of everyone on every geek oriented website has self-diagnosed themselves with it. You can set your clock by it, too. Post anything about it at any time and anywhere and a flock of people claiming that they're "pretty sure they have it" will arise. With such evidence as "I am kind of socially awkward sometimes" and "I get really obsessed with certain things" or "I am super detail oriented". (I've heard very few descriptions of Aspergers as anything other than just being different. Basically, if you weren't Mr. Outgoing, on the glee squad, and interested in football -- you have Aspergers.... of course, if you're outgoing and a social butterfly and interested in sports, you're probably going to be diagnosed as "suffering" from something else).

Aspergers is one of those things put in the DSM so loosely that pretty much anyone could theoretically be diagnosed with it. Sort of the same way most people read a horoscope and say "wow, how do they know me so well?!". What I don't get is the whole appeal of "wanting to have it". Some people seem so eager to claim they have Asperger's that you'd think it gave you a nine inch dick.

In this particular instance, it's actually a bit sickening. The impression I'm given from story after story after never-fucking-ending story about Aspergers is that it has nearly no impact on those that have it (which kind of makes it seem pointless to be a "thing" that has to be "diagnosed", right?). I mean, the people we're always given examples as "probably having Aspergers" are Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg and the like. Wow, what a terrible affliction. So it makes most people extremely intelligent, socially-awkward, wealthy successes . . . and this guy a criminal?

He might as well claim to be suffering from "seasonal affective disorder" (otherwise known to normal people as FUCKING WINTER).

Re:So what?

[Seumas]

Listen, you son of a bitch. You're supposed to be SUFFERING from this. We came up with the list of symptoms and added it to the DSM and made doctors and schools aware of it and wrangled the media into it. The least you can do is show that you appreciate this by SUFFERING and wanting to be like everyone else. You ungrateful prick!

Re:So what?

[Luckyo]

There is something really messed up in the country when people testifying to court of law aren't trying to find out the truth but instead actively try to build up a hyperbole, even if they know it really isn't true.

Re:So what?

[Myu]

... people with Asperger around the world are trying HARD to demonstrate that they can behave as normal as anybody else...

It strikes me that this is a really strange thing to say. Surely it is exactly the nature of Asperger's syndrome that they NEED to try hard BECAUSE their natural ability to grasp what is "normal" is different to the other people they interact with!

If your challenge was "he shouldn't be able to avoid prosecution on the grounds of his ability to perceive social standards", then the question is raised as to what the relationship between responsible agency and the comprehension of social standards is. We learn to understand what is right and wrong through our interactions with the social world around us, because that's the feedback mechanism - we get praised as kids for good behaviour and scolded for bad. Although law is a separate mechanism, concepts of consequence and contract (on which theories of law are often grounded) are both learned through the same kinds of channels.

Obviously, Asperger's entails a difficulty with such cognitive mechanisms, rather than a complete failure of them, so people nonethless retain responsibility for their actions. The question is to what extent this responsibility can be diminished in proportion with that difficulty, and there is a positive liberty argument to be made to the effect that you can't be held as a fully reasonable agent under the law when there are blatantly obvious consequences for your actions that you have never learned to formulate. That's also the essence of arguments for public education and not giving kids voting rights.

You are entirely entitled to feel offended that the position hasn't simply been immediately ruled out. After all, it suggests that being on the autism spectrum might affect one's entitlement to equal treatment under the law. But that doesn't make the position wrong. Consider cases of people with severe low-functioning Autism (which, it should be pointed out, are woefully neglected in the general media beyond childhood) - these are people with serious needs that they are not in a position to fulfil for themselves, and it often falls to family members to provide the difficult and expensive care that they require. To state straight-off that the law should be blind to such situations is just callous; it at least deserves consideration.

Finally, it should be entirely anticipated that people with Asperger's syndrome might have trouble seeing why the position could be right. That's what the condition is. So I'm sorry, but I think your judgement of "irresponsibility" is premature. We can't just throw out the argument of diminished responsibility on the grounds of sentiment or intuition. It's a proper legal discussion that needs to be had, and perhaps an important question of moral philosophy too.

Re:So what?

[Runaway1956]

Heh. Why be normal? Normal people aren't any happier than I am.

Re:So what?

[Seumas]

I doubt that had anything to do with aspergers. Sounds like the person was just a douche. Everything I've gathered from the barrage of media attention (and slashdot attention) on this over the years has made it pretty clear that Aspergers is to Autism what beige is to pitch-black. People wanting to make it popular often like to suggest that Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg and many others of their group have Aspergers. They're of sound mind the same way you and I are

Here. Go look at a list of the symptoms (you don't have to hit on them all to be diagnosable). Tell me the a good chunk of the list doesn't apply to at least 80% of the people you know. It's ridiculous.

http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/tc/aspergers-syndrome-symptoms

Re:So what?

[Seumas]

What does that have to do with aspergers?

Most people would go to well in prison. I'd probably seriously consider suicide if I was looking at doing time in a place where I had to be the bitch of one prison gang or another just to survive, live in a cell the size of a bathroom stall, and have absolutely no freedom.

Oh - also - MOST people don't like new routines or environments.

Re:So what?

[TheLink]

Not really, he's a doctor, OTHER people are supposed to figure out what he wrote...

Re:So what?

[moronoxyd]

What I don't get is the whole appeal of "wanting to have it". Some people seem so eager to claim they have Asperger's that you'd think it gave you a nine inch dick.

The point is this:
If you spent all your live struggling to understand the way social interaction works, if you always hat problems understanding why people behave this way or that and why they expect you to do this, it helps a lot if you get to know why you have these problems fitting in.

When you know that it's a medical condition and that you are not doing anything 'wrong', you can concentrate on living your life, rather than spent time trying to figure out the why.

Sure, a lot of people may misdiagnose themselves. But that doesn't mean that everybody who assumes he has Asperger's is wrong about this.

Re:So what?

[TheLink]

That's the way the UK, US and many countries do stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adversarial_system
Another approach is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitorial_system

Re:So what?

[mrbester]

Except it is spelled with a P. Typos or not, those keys aren't that close together.

Re:So what?

[hitmark]

One way a "aspie" may compensate for issues in daily life is by forming a fantasy world where they have a degree of control.

Re:So what?

[gl4ss]

if you can behave like everyone else then you're just like everyone else, aspergers is pretty non exactly defined, as is humour, as is poetry. the bold and the beautiful is full of people with aspergers, but it's so slight that most of the time they don't need cops around the house.

if the rumours about him are true (foil and everything) then he is wacko on the standard scale and it is a valid defense(which usually just goes to influence the type of punishment/forced_care, same thing really - it would be different if he was rolling in mafia cash with mafia hookers and doing it for coke'n'hoes, which he wasn't - hw asn't apparently even doing it for pure lulz).

it's all about person, if your bouts of whatever are counted as just being a jerk or just being a little strange in the head and that's how it's always been, it's not something that came to be in the 20th century. still, knowing how "e police" works, they're giving it their best to get him to admit to more than what he did(what's a conspiracy anyways? is this chat board a conspiracy? hard enough to know the differences even when you're titled a so called normally behaving citizen).

Re:So what?

[Seumas]

Being weird isn't a medical condition.

I'm not saying that there aren't symptoms which can be severe enough together to deserve a diagnosis and some sort of effort to mitigate them for certain people, but all these people saying "well, gosh, I was awkward when I was in high school; now I know why" and therefore diagnosing themselves with Aspergers are just being dumb asses. People are different. Some are weird. Some are awkward. And in high school, pretty much EVERYONE was awkward. Hell, for the rest of life most people are kind of awkward.

There is this sick desire to label everyone who deviates from a specific and fine line of normality as having something wrong with them (treatable, of course!) and for everyone who deviates even slightly from the "norm" to be diagnosed. It's just messed up.

I don't intend my comments to apply to the few people who actually suffer from real and actual severe cases of legitimate Aspergers and have been diagnosed as such. Just the people who sickly cling to things like ADD, Aspergers, seasonal affective disorder, and whatever else they can think of to both differentiate themselves as unique and . . . explain why they have always felt different.

Re:So what?

[Seumas]

Strangely enough, there was a long thread about Aspergers on a gaming forum just last week in which a few people repeatedly refered to it as "Asbergers".

Re:So what?

[Bing Tsher E]

Indeed. People like that need to be heavily sedated. They could screw up the whole reimbursement model for treatment of the disorder.
 

Re:So what?

[AK Marc]

people with Asperger around the world are trying HARD to demonstrate that they can behave as normal as anybody else

If they have to try that hard, then that says something in itself...

There's nothing in Asperger's that would "excuse" anyone from being tried regularly. Insanity is a defense used for those that couldn't, at the time, understand what they were doing was wrong. However, there is nothing in that which would dismiss a criminal case.

The previous application of Asperger's in the UK was to establish that it is a condition that would not be treated appropriately in the US were the person with it to be extradited. It wasn't used as a "he has this, he should be excused" argument, but that "he has a condition that would be ignored should he be extradited, and as such, it would be inhumane to extradite him because of that."

If you actually understood Asperger's, I'd assert that the most offensive thing about this article is the last sentence (specifically the snide comment in the last clause), "He said Cleary is highly intelligent but agoraphobic and has difficulty interacting with people, presumably unless they are on the end of an Internet connection." The last clause adds nothing to the article, but takes a shot at those with Asperger's using computers to shield themselves from others. It's actually a good thing. Those who do not use or understand social cues do much better where those cues are filtered so that everyone is on a level playing field. And for some, it's mentally not even talking to other people, or they would be more nervous. They type, responses show up. Whether those responses are people or bots or such is irrelevant. It's not personal contact and could be anyone anywhere or maybe nobody at all, so it doesn't trigger the same anxiety as being there in person.

Another aspect of Asperger's is that it is a spectrum disorder. That is, someone could have it and actually be indistinguishable from normal by others around them. And some will indistinguishable by those around them from someone with Autism. Those with the "light" version should be quite capable of passing themselves off as "normal" and those with the "heavy" version would have more trouble with it. That those with "light" Asperger's are trying hard to demonstrate normality is irrelevant to the ability of those with "heavy" Asperger's to do the same.

Re:So what?

[AK Marc]

I can't tell from the article what's going on in the case at this point. The previous UK resident to bring up Asperger's wasn't doing it to get out of the charges, but to affect the request for extradition (claiming it's a diagnosed condition that would not be appropriately treated in the US, and the US essentially agreed that it would not be considered or treated were he to be extradited).

Perhaps it's nothing more than setting up a basis for the agoraphobia or such to claim a basis for a neurosis or psychosis (aggravated by but not directly caused by Asperger's) that would be the grounds for an insanity plea. Or perhaps it's making sure to get out the "troubled teen with a mental disorder" line early and often in the case to affect sentencing should they lose, steering it to a hospital stay rather than prison if it comes to that. Or, like above, it could be setting the basis to deny an extradition, as the US system does not appear to take "mild" mental conditions seriously and refuses to treat or even acknowledge them within the justice system.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

because all the kids on 4chan call it ASS BURGERS LOLOLOLOLOL, so anyone that frequents there will probably end up getting it wrong.

Re:So what?

[mjwalshe]

yep its the same as the previous case with Gary McKinnon - getting diagnosed after the fact.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm almost certain you are being sarcastic. In fact, if I wasn't inclined to take and mean things literally, I wouldn't even bother to write "almost".

Just wanted to say thank you. I very much enjoyed your comment. I got a feeling of anonymous love radiating from a universe without meaning. It's cool how atoms and quarks and quantum shit that has no will or purpose can make it feel this way. And without any kind of added dope, even. You reminded me that I'm not alone. Thank you.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

(Devils advocate)

I'm a pedophile (also on the DSM). Do you imply that I am less responsible for my acts due to my condition? Clearly, the know nothing about pedophilia and are in fact, offending people with this affliction, this simply infuraittes me, people with pedophilia around th world are trying HARD to demonstrate that they can behave as normal as anybody else and thsi lawyer comes with this just to save this guy's ass. That's plain irresponsible!

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dammit. If I wasn't an AC I'd assign you infinite hit points for this post. Spot... Fucking... On.

Re:So what?

[Myu]

+1, but I'm not convinced that your point about computers is "a good thing" per se. Computers are tremendously enabling for people with Aspergers, and I don't doubt that it gives people independence and self-governance in a way that is life-affirming and incredibly positive. The problem is that this very enabling is what creates social fragmentation.

Externalising the way we interact with the world is great when we externalise correctly. However, the epistemic gap to the world is always very difficult to bridge, and the problem with such externalisation is that it is so easy to get things wrong. For an example of doing it incorrectly, look at extremist religion. For a (very salient) example of doing it incorrectly online, look at 4-chan.

Re:So what?

[murdocj]

That's the way the legal system works in the US. Each side has an advocate whose goal is not to "find the truth" but rather to advocate their side. The idea is that the truth comes out in the clash of two strong advocates. It makes sense, because the idea that you are going to have disinterested investigators arrive at the truth is difficult to implement. After all, pretty much everybody has an axe to grind... may as well take advantage of that.

Re:So what?

[AK Marc]

Computers are tremendously enabling for people with Aspergers, and I don't doubt that it gives people independence and self-governance in a way that is life-affirming and incredibly positive. The problem is that this very enabling is what creates social fragmentation.

I agree with your point. They allow for equal interaction without addressing the underlying issue. Much like chatting would allow a deaf person to interact with others without revealing any limitations. But, because we get people who don't address the spectrum as a spectrum, we get the "it's just Asperger's, everyone has it, just get over it" statements. When there's understanding and acceptance based on that (which would be little to none), it will encourage others to not even try. But if there was a permanent crutch, then there'd be little incentive to try to integrate. But again, as with the deaf community, they often deliberately segregate themselves and cause social fragmentation. But people don't fault them for it like they do people with Asperger's.

Since 80% (or so, depending on who you talk to) of communication is non-verbal, it could even be argued that the deaf people have a better chance of integrating with society than those with Asperger's, but yet they often segregate without complaint. But someone with Asperger's who tires of the work required to play in a society they don't fit in is considered a lazy quitter. It's that level of intolerance of Asperger's (usually promoted most strongly from those who have or think they have a mild form of it) that drives even more to give up because they just can't do it as easily as those who say they have it have done, so they must be doing something wrong. And there are very few resources for those with it (and many more for those who are parents of those with it). The general answer is "just deal with it."

Re:So what?

[turbidostato]

"The prosecution will, of course, be digging up evidence that the kid is some kind of Machiavellian criminal mastermind using his inhuman hacking skills to springboard to world domination..."

That's the common (and faulty) perception of the public prosecutions role in our justice system.

Sorry but not. The public prosecution/defense doesn't work in a symmetric way: it's true that defense should look for any legal breach that will allow its client to get rid of charges, but it's false that the prosecution role is trying the opposite, looking for anything within legal boundaries that will get with the trialed bones in jail, the longer the better. The prosecution role is to find the truth and from the truth any legal responsibility that might arise. Just that.

Re:So what?

[splodus]

She was generally a pleasant person but distinctly odd. Her father and brother were ASD (her mother told our administrator once when she called about some missing coursework). She was very bright - once spotted an arithmetic error in a 12-page handout within about 10 seconds of getting it, but term marks were always poor, just the bare minimum of effort to get through.

Overall there was nothing very specific that you could call a 'symptom', just inappropriate socially. She would frequently interrupt me in class and wouldn't 'get the message' that the others were irritated. Once another student said 'we hear a lot about you, who are you?' and she replied 'you hear a lot from me, not about me'. Another time she got an Excel handout that began 'double click the icon on the desktop' - she looked, literally, on the desk in front of her, even though we had been using the terminology for weeks in class - it was a different context and the knowledge didn't transfer.

Interestingly I read her 'disabilities review form' and she wrote candidly about what it was like for her. She said that she wished the tutors would 'discipline her for interrupting in class' and that she wished everyone wore name badges. She also said that the reason she chose our university is that we asked the right questions about her condition, and that she turned down places at each institution that referred to wheelchairs (of course most use a single generic form).

So, yes, it was her condition that led to this sort of behavior, but whether it was 'classic' asperger's I couldn't say.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

this is an autism spectrum disorder, there's plenty of doubt on whether he would have known better or not, it's not a cut and dry disorder...

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably a Doctor of Audiology, or similar. You can do that over the internet.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be one of the "dumb asses" you're talking about. I'd diagnosed myself with (ie. assumed I had) Asperger's for nearly 15 years. But, I'd never told anybody, never used it as an excuse or gloated about it online (or off), and never got a proper diagnosis because I never felt the need.

In fact up until I told them of my suspicions a couple years ago my own parents didn't even know (I'm in my mid-twenties); all those years they'd just thought I was a shy and deliberately anti-social person, until I'd been pushed to fit in to this sick society so much I just learned to work through social situations based on a purely logical process, rather than the intrinsic empathy and social awareness "normal" people have.

So yeah, I fit the bill of your rant exactly. That is, until I met a friend-of-a-friend, a childcare worker who, after hanging out only a couple times basically said "I think you have Asperger's". Got a proper diagnosis and turns out we were right, I'm on the mid-to-severe level of Asperger's. It took 26 years before anybody but me noticed it. And guess what, the severe case of chronic depression often associated with Asperger's was just a happy side effect too (the years of being outcast and ridiculed by people much like yourself didn't help either, apparently).

So I guess my point is, who the fuck are you to be telling people they're making up their mental disorders? Go fuck yourself, and the high horse you rode in on. No person of sound mind would WANT to be diagnnosed with a mental disorder, willingly putting themselves through the shit that I had to take and doing their best to come up with reasons not to kill themselves start of every day (luckily in my case, I'm not so depressed as to kill myself, more indifferent to living). Anyone who IS making it up is a hypochondriac and needs medical help. Anybody who WANTS it to be true is probably some kind of sociopath and needs medical help. Anybody who has correctly self-diagnosed... can you guess? They need medical help.

P.S. Fuck You

Re:So what?

[goodmanj]

In my not-a-doctor, not-a-lawyer opinion, the defense of "diminished responsibility" is a very good idea in general, but it should not apply to people with Asperger's. While it's a serious condition, I don't think affects your ability to judge right from wrong severely enough to be a legal defense.

Part of the reason for this is that a classic symptom of Asperger's is the person's strict adherence to and insistence upon rules. Asperger's folks will freak out at you for jaywalking: if anything, they're *less* likely to walk blindly past the law than your average Joe.

Your colleague's experience matches my own: I have a student who wanders into my office without a word to look at my books and toys as well. But I'll note that despite your fears, your student didn't *actually* take anything, and neither has mine: while the idea of "personal space" and "polite greeting" are kinda alien to her, she knows that stealing is wrong.

Re:So what?

[hitmark]

I have found myself saying that i would wish the issue would turn my skin blue or something, so that people could actually see that there was a problem present.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

P.P.S. Figured I'd say something on topic while I'm here. The guy is a dick. Despite what I said above, Asperger's whilst being a terrible condition because of the shitty way affected person's are treated in society, is no excuse for comitting a crime, and the guy - if found guilty - should be locked up for a long time in PMITA prison.

Re:So what?

[DrXym]

So what if he has Asperger? Are the lawyers implying that he is less responsible for his acts due his condition? Clearly they do not know anything about Asperger's syndrome and in fact are offending people with this kind of syndrome, this simply infuriates me, people with Asperger around the world are trying HARD to demonstrate that they can behave as normal as anybody else and this lawyers come with this just to save this guy's Ass, thats plain irresponsible!

Well yeah, that's more or less what the lawyers are implying. And it should be given the weight it deserves - very little. Aspergers does not mean someone cannot tell right from wrong and therefore they should have little excuse under law for their actions. The guy knew full well what he was doing and if the charges are proven then he gets shoved in some US prison then it will be 100% his own fault. One would think that someone with agrophobia would think better than to break the law given the potential consequences of being caught.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

As somebody with Aspergers let me tell you that aspergers come in all types, most of them are out of sight/out of mind because they have such difficulty in the workplace, the vast majority are on some kind of assistance or social disability.

More importantly given my many years among "normal" people, you realize that humanity itself is just screwed, you don't need a label to see how screwed up so-called normal people are, in fact we could make a great argument that normal people are screwing up the planet at an incredible rate.

No one has a monopoly on being behaving badly.

Re:So what?

[F.Ultra]

And it's been going on for thousands of years like that. Read some of the old Icelandic sagas, i.e in "Njáls saga" there is great descriptions of a trail at the thing and it's not a matter of who is right or wrong as much as who knows the law best that wins the trail. It's quite interesting to see that we still today basically use the same system.

Re:So what?

[AmiMoJo]

This hearing was just to request bail, so their argument is that his condition should be considered when deciding if he has to remain in prison on remand or not.

When the trial proper starts I imagine they will argue that the internet makes people behave differently due to the pseudo-anonymity it offer, and an Asperger's sufferer is more prone to being caught up in hacking groups than a normal person. They will probably also argue that he was not fully aware of the consequences of his actions.

Gary McKinnon's lawyers are arguing something similar. In his case it seems a reasonable assertion to me. He was clearly a bit nuts (medical term) because he thought the US government was covering up evidence of UFOs. He read websites and books on the subject and was more influenced by them than a normal person who due to social norms would have been more included to reject them as nutters too.

I'm not saying it excuses either of them, but it should be considered.

Re:So what?

[AmiMoJo]

The prosecution will, of course, be digging up evidence that the kid is some kind of Machiavellian criminal mastermind using his inhuman hacking skills to springboard to world domination...

Seems that all he is being accused of is running an IRC server used by Anonymous and joining in with some DDOS attacks (probably using LOIC). There doesn't seem to be any link to LuzSec as all the crimes he is accused of took place last year.

Showing that he was caught up with Anonymous and egged on to join in while suffering a mental condition that makes him prone to that sort of thing seems like a pretty good defence.

Re:So what?

[jklovanc]

Sorry buy you seem to know very little about how Asperger's Syndrome works. I have moderate Asperger's and have difficulty interacting with people. The issue is not that I do not understand what is right or wrong, as in a law, but what is expected in social situations. In fact Aspergers has made me more of a rules lawyer than the average person. Laws are very black and white; it is very clear what is right or wrong and I have no problem discerning that. The widely known law against DoS attacks is not an issue for people with Asperger's.

In social situations there are no laws. Different things happen in different situations governed by clues that I do not pick up on. What is socially acceptable one minute is not acceptable the next. This kind of chaos, which a neurotypical person can handle, is frustrating and confusing to me.

Aspregers is not a cognitive issue; it is a intuitive issue. We think about everything and have very good analytical, problem solving skills. That is why most people with Aspergers are very intelligent. To us every social interaction is a thought process. We have to think about everything as we have little or no "gut feeling" on what to do. Where most people intuitively know what to do and how to act, people with Aspergers must think about it and make a decision. We compare the current situation with past situations and try to find the best fit. Sometimes we are right and sometimes we are wrong. Think about trying to keep track of someone's tone, posture, facial expressions, inflection, choice of words, etc to figure out what is going on. Now multiply that by the number of people in a social situation. This is a very tiring and frustrating experience for us so we sometimes avoid social contact. Another aspect of this is that we always seem to be behind conversations because we had to think about what to say and rehearse how to say it.

It is not that people with Aspergers do not have the cognitive mechanism to delineate right from wrong but that we do not have the intuitive mechanism to deal with the changing social aspects of life.

Re:So what?

[max]

D'oh! :-)

Re:So what?

[ColdWetDog]

One way a "aspie" may compensate for issues in daily life is by forming a fantasy world where they have a degree of control.

Oh, like the large proportion of the planet that watches television all day?

Re:So what?

[ColdWetDog]

Listen, you son of a bitch. You're supposed to be SUFFERING from this. We came up with the list of symptoms and added it to the DSM and made doctors and schools aware of it and wrangled the media into it. The least you can do is show that you appreciate this by SUFFERING and wanting to be like everyone else. You ungrateful prick!

Nice to see that the clergy is represented on Slashdot.

Re:So what?

[ColdWetDog]

This is biology. It's not black or white. It's shades of gray. Aspergers (and every other psychiatric diagnosis and most purely 'medical' diagnoses) are found on a continuum. It becomes pretty arbitrary when you call a set of symptoms a 'disease' or just a 'personality trait'. Most people get depressed from time to time. Some people stay that way and have that feeling permeate their life. Most people can act a tad manic at times. Only a few can go full bore onto a recognizable manic episode. It comes down to genetics, environment, luck of the draw, feng shu and probably other things.

If you are going to treat these problems with any sort of reductionist bent, you have to put them in a pigeon hole. Gets confusing and annoying at times.

Re:So what?

[Culture20]

Double edged sword. Some people respond to the Hulk with calming words and soothing music. Some people taunt him and shoot at him. Almost no one asks him out on a date or chats about the latest TV shows.

Re:So what?

[he-sk]

The issue is not that I do not understand what is right or wrong, as in a law, but what is expected in social situations. In fact Aspergers has made me more of a rules lawyer than the average person. Laws are very black and white; it is very clear what is right or wrong and I have no problem discerning that. The widely known law against DoS attacks is not an issue for people with Asperger's.

Maybe I'm reading too much into what you're saying, but the law does not determine what is right or wrong. Laws are a kind of social norm and every social norm is learned through social interaction [1]. The only thing that makes laws special is that they are enforced by the state, through violence if necessary. But that doesn't mean that every individual has to automatically follow them. Just with every other norm (e.g. clothing standards, etiquette) it is up to the individual to decide to conform to the norm or reject it if one is prepared to face the consequences. And if one decides that a particular law is unjust, it could be argued that the morally right thing to do is to break the law and live with the consequences.

[1] For example, the law might say that the speed limit is 55, but that's not the social norm that is codified by the law. On the highway, you'll find that people go faster or slower depending on circumstances. In other words, just reading what the law says won't give you a complete picture on how society generally agrees to interpret the law.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

She once walked into my colleague's office, ignoring him completely, and began browsing his bookshelf!

Wait, there's something wrong with that?

I mean. If you don't take anything I don't see anything wrong with that if the door is open? If the guy says something you can just respond "I'm looking at your books" and everything should be fine right?

Note: I don't have asperger's or autism or nothing like that. I'm well balanced, even if people call me a little weird sometimes. I mean I could probably self diagnose myself as asperger's but self diagnosis is an antlion pit from which there is no return. I've probably got a fair share of minor mental disorders but so do all the other normal people.

Re:So what?

[hitmark]

I was just observing on how people with physical handicaps seems to have a much easier time getting accepted as such...

Re:So what?

[catmistake]

lawyers come up with this just to save this guy's Ass

It depends how severe it is.

Re:So what?

[anubi]

I have been diagnosed with this, too.

I never thought anything of it, I just thought it was work ethic. That's something it seems no-one in this nation values anymore.

Sports and idle party-talk bore the shit out of me. I thoroughly enjoy a good science chat. Yep, that's why I am here on Slashdot, not facebook.

In my younger years, I got to work with some people just like me - and thoroughly enjoyed it. Good engineering work requiring lots of ingenuity and cleverness to build the things we did. Big business bought up the little company, brought in their managers, and goodbye having any fun.

No, I do not "team play" very well, Neither was I a fraternity guy - to me those were just guys who got by by cheating by having access to all the professor's old tests.

No, I did it the hard way. I did the work personally. Got "A"'s too. Today, no one seems to respect that. Rewards go to those who can connive others to do the work.

Damm aspergers. If I had only done the party thing, I could have been one of those guys the MBA hires to lay guys like me off for lacking "social skills".

Re:So what?

[hitmark]

Tho it could perhaps be that he considered the targets attacked as corrupt, and so in the wrong, making his actions right in a vigilante justice kind of way.

Re:So what?

[hitmark]

And that can be a trigger issue. Big corporation or government agency breaks the law, or seen as doing so, covertly or overtly, but gets a social pass for some reason or other. This then triggers a drive towards righting the wrong, perhaps resulting in vigilante "justice".

Re:So what?

[goodmanj]

Yes, but many "normal" criminals believe that. It's not a legit legal defense.

Re:So what?

[sjames]

You're missing it! They're not saying that he is in any way less responsible for his actions. They are saying that the usual imprisonment might constitute cruel and unusual punishment for him. That would mean some sort of alternative punishment, not no punishment.

Re:So what?

[sjames]

He might as well claim to be suffering from "seasonal affective disorder" (otherwise known to normal people as FUCKING WINTER).

Some people get the winter blahs, some get a major depressive episode and kill themselves. You're more or less committing the same offense you accuse others of by claiming "yeah, everyone gets that".

Likewise, some are very mildly affected by Aspergers (which may or may not be just another term for very high functioning autism) and some are much more severely affected. You would look at a person with a paper cut and say "yeah, yeah, so your legs got chopped off, everyone gets a cut now and then, but we don't go moaning about needing a hospital and special ramps and shit!".

You say you don't mean to dismiss it, but it sounds EXACTLY like you do just that.

This kid may or may not actually have it. I wouldn't know, I haven't met him and I don't even know who made the diagnosis. It may or may not be severe enough that some accommodation needs to be made. However, it could be.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I defaced a website that was hosted in California around 6 years ago and was given a caution under the Computer Misuse Act, I also have Aspergers Syndrome and I find myself constantly battling against peoples pre-conceived notions. When most people find out I have the disorder they speak to me like im either a child or just really slowly or most just don't wat to speak about complex issues with me. I say try the kid in court like anyone else that is the true nature of equality.

Re:So what?

[L4t3r4lu5]

Although it was less time since I was at school, I feel the same way. Maybe it's because I'm younger, but even throughout the day I can catch myself making a conscious decision to not react a certain way, as the reaction to a previous similar encounter was unfavourable. I can't help but think that others simply do not think to react in the way I need to specifically instruct myself to avoid.

Re:So what?

[jklovanc]

The issue is that the law is a static rule. It doesn't say that if you are in a hurry you can speed. It doesn't say that if you are upset you can speed. It doesn't say that on a blue moon the speed limit is now 40. It does not say that if you are beautiful you can speed. Social situations change like that. Laws are written down, codified and do not change very often. If I choose to speed it is a cognitive choice not a guess what the speed limit is as determined by the current circumstances. There is a huge difference between I know what the speed limit is but chose to break it and what the hell is the speed limit based on factors that I am blind to.

Re:So what?

[he-sk]

And therein lies the problem, laws are static while social interactions are not. OTOH, laws are not an end to themselves, but a means to regulate society through common agreement. Thus there will always been friction when it comes to law and society acknowledges this. That's why we have courts.

I'm afraid that I didn't make myself clear enough, so I'll try again. The speed limit codifies a social norm, namely a proscription of driving at unsafe speeds. But the law is not the same as the norm, it's just the way the state chooses to regulate it. And the law doesn't even cover the entire norm. If visibility is low, it is expected that one drives slower. OTOH, someone driving well below the speed limit on a highway in good conditions will become a hindrance. One might be following (the letter of) the law, but at the same time, one is violating the social norm of not driving at an unsafe speed.

In other words, laws are decidedly not black and white. There are always open to interpretation even if the text leaves little wiggle room.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

In some ways, I *would* have like it spotted earlier, because I could have had an easier time of school if people had just explained to me some of the things that people take for granted are "built in", like an understanding of interpersonal relationships.

Sheldon? Is that you?

Okay, joking aside, I completely agree with you. I think some of the best programmers in the computer industry are those that can focus a tremendous amount of brain power on a given task, the balance coming from less gray matter devoted to interpreting social cues. But I have yet to meet someone with any degree of Aspergers that had a problem with the concepts of right and wrong.

Re:So what?

[Dr_Barnowl]

Probably because I don't obsess about it enough to learn the correct spelling.

Re:So what?

[jklovanc]

First a couple of points. Most speed laws have a clause about weather conditions and causing a hindrance to traffic. These are very few and cognitively manageable parameters.

The social interactions are much more complex. I was thinking about this last night and came up with an analogy. A neurotypical person in social interactions is like driving down a highway with speed signs at reasonable places; the rest of the clues come from intuition. For a person with Asperger's it is more like driving down a road with traffic signs every 20 feet, some in English, some in other languages, some with time of day parameters, some with different meaning depending on the orientation of the sign. Even driving the same highway over and over again is no help because the signs change at random intervals. We miss signs and misinterpret signs because it is physically impossible to think that fast. Where a neurotypical person just does what feels right someone with Asperger's has to think about it.

The point is that there is no social norm for social interaction as it changes based on the mood of everyone in the interaction. What was expected 5 minutes ago may not be what is accepted now but may be expected 5 minutes from now. When one has to cognitively think about every parameter of a social interaction it is very tiring and frustrating.

You make a point about "common agreement". There is no common agreement when it comes to social interaction. Different people are treated differently at different times based on the mood of the people in the interaction. For example if one is calm one would react to a joke much differently that if one is stressed. If someone with Asperger's can not pick up on the stress level of another person then a joke may have drastic consequences. There is no social norm saying that the joke is acceptable or not as it changes.

A good example is Dr Reid on Criminal Minds. Early in the series he would ramble on about interesting but irrelevant facts. Some times his ramblings helped; sometimes they didn't. Recently he has been able to recognize Hotchner's look when he starts rambling. He still isn't perfect because he starts and has to say "that's not relevant" before he stops. After years of interaction Reid has been able to pick out that one important sign from that one person.. Try doing that kind of learning when you interact with different people every day.

To take this conversation back to the original topic; Asperger's is not a cognitive issue, it is an intuitive issue. Try going into every social interaction and ask yourself why you react the way you do and why other people react the way they do. Try doing that while carrying on a conversation.

Well buh

[lisaparratt]

Man on internet has aspergers. Film at 11: Sun is hot.

Thx, now the MC Frontalot tune is stuck in my head

[Anonymous Coward]

...for the rest of the day

So what?

[frps25]

So what if he has Asperger? Are the lawyers implying that he is less responsible for his acts due his condition? Clearly they do not know anything about Asperger's syndrome and in fact are offending people with this kind of syndrome, this simply infuriates me, people with Asperger around the world are trying HARD to demonstrate that they can behave as normal as anybody else and this lawyers come with this just to save this guy's Ass, thats plain irresponsible!

Asperger's, the Get Out of Jail Free card?

[Nighttime]

I can see it now, every low-life scrote using that as an excuse for their actions.

"Yeah, I couldn't help meself from robbin' those cars. I've got me that Assburger's, ain't I?"

Re:Asperger's, the Get Out of Jail Free card?

[Anonymous Coward]

+1... i'm tired of hearing excuses for why these people shouldn't wind up in jail. assburgers or not, lock this stupid kid away.

Re:Asperger's, the Get Out of Jail Free card?

[Anonymous Coward]

But oh kind anon, what is he guilty of.. running a chat room?

Re:Asperger's, the Get Out of Jail Free card?

[Seumas]

Seriously. If a forum for communication was responsible for the crimes of its users, Rob Malda would be in prison on like 8,000 counts of child molestation.

Re:Asperger's, the Get Out of Jail Free card?

[The Clockwork Troll]

that's nothing. christopher poole would be in prison on over 9000.

Re:Asperger's, the Get Out of Jail Free card?

[Anonymous Coward]

if he was running their irc server, then someone had to have paid him. either way, he should know who connected to his server, and he could easily hand that information over. withholding information related to a crime is also a crime, is it not?

Re:Asperger's, the Get Out of Jail Free card?

[MichaelSmith]

if he was running their irc server, then someone had to have paid him.

Why? I operate a server for my own purposes and occasionally run services for friends for free.

Re:Asperger's, the Get Out of Jail Free card?

[Anonymous Coward]

you might change your tune when your "friend" decides to use your services for malice.

Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[phayes]

Gary McKinnon based much of his appeal to be exempted from extradition to the US on Aspergers & failed. Aspergers makes people mal-adapted to much of society but does not affect their comprehension of right/wrong & so is irrelevant.

Re:Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[Goose In Orbit]

...except...

a) He hasn't failed to be exempted from extradition - it's still being looked at by the Home Office
b) He's not asking for a "get out of jail free" card - it's about being tried (and, if found guilty) imprisoned in the UK rather than the US
c) The "Aspergers defence" only arose - some years after the event - because Simon Baron-Cohen saw an interview with him and suggested he may be suffering from the condition

Re:Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[hitmark]

Right and wrong is sadly not set in stone. As such, if one is of the belief that the targets one attack is corrupt, or in other ways can envision oneself as a kind of robin hood figure, then in ones own eyes one is doing right. And Asperger "sufferers" may build up a fantasy world as a coping mechanism.

Re:Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[AK Marc]

The issue for extradition wasn't an insanity plea, but that he had a diagnosed condition that the US would not recognize or treat. The US stance is "You are sentenced to prison, buy yourself some lube and deal with it, we want to make sure that you hate life so much that if you aren't a bad person when you enter, you will kill yourself or be a bad person when you leave." And that's pretty much on par with the worst prison systems on the planet, with the conditions being more hygienic, but no more safe. And I'd make any argument possible to serve time anywhere else in the civilized world other than US prisons.

Re:Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[Anonymous Coward]

Asperger's seems to have become the vanity diagnosis for nerds these days. They use it as an excuse to not try and fit with societal norms, the same way ADHD is used by absentee parents to excuse their children's bad behaviour.

Re:Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[Anonymous Coward]

Simon Baron-Cohen is pretty smart, but he's kind of a drag. I'd rather hang out with his brother Sasha. He's funny. He poops in people's dining rooms and shows pictures of his 'junk.'

Re:Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[hitmark]

i will just leave this relevant article here: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande

Re:Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[E.I.A]

Hmm. It is still ridiculous to extradite him. I wrote a little article on the subject, mostly lampooning it: http://eccentricintelligenceagency.info/archives/784 I am not so sure searching for information is wrong. If so, no more than lying to the public - which the US military does to excess. IMO the whole case on McKinnon is irrelevant.

Re:Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[cheeks5965]

very nice! hi five!

Re:Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[phayes]

As do others who do not have Aspergers. Again, aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

Re:Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[phayes]

So, have you stopped beating your Wife? If you failed to recognize ther reference, a common social engineering trick is to accuse your adversary of something heinous in order to side-track him into defending against the unproven allegation instead of the main point. McKinnon's less intelligent defenders use this technique when they accuse the US of wanting to toss Mckinnon into "the worst prison system on the planet". Having lived in both the US & Europe, I'd rather be incarcerated in one of the country club prisons McKinnon will be spending time in rather than the prisons at 400% of capacity thet is the norm in much of Europe. As for prisons in the thirld world, if you think that prison in the US is bad you clearly have no idea how badly prisoners are treated elsewhere. McKinnon's lawyers tried everything they could including insanity (Good for them, that is their role). Every public recourse against extradition was rejected. As evidenced by the man who stole $1 to attempt to be treated in jail, the health care is also much better than you attempt to portray it, especially for someone like futre inmate Mkkinnon. As noted elsewhere in the thread, Aspergers may reinforce the tendancy for those affected to try to impose a fantasy world upon RL. It still doesn't equate to a get out of jail free card.

Re:Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[phayes]

A) True, waiting to see how it will turn out as well. Maybe McKinnon & the lulzsec guy will share the plane ride or maybe Obama wants McKinnon to fade away. Extraditing the lulzsec guy without getting closure on McKinnon is almost certainly not going to happen so we may learn fairly quickly.
B) Much ls to be said for being tried in the country where the crime has taken place rather than where the person was when it was comitted. If the UK decides on the second point predominating they will be surrendering all soveriegnty in future case where the UK is affected over the internet from countries with less stringent laws (like say the rest of europe who already look askance at the super injunctions "protecting" UK football stars & politicians from the press).
C) Aspergers was immediately seized upon by McKinnon's lawyers as soon as it was suspected as a lifeline to avoid extradition. McKinnon has lost every public appeal he has made so far

Re:Aspergers is not a "get out of jail free" card

[Goose In Orbit]

a) Maybe - once the Home Office decides one way or the other, then the precedence set will no doubt be used (by one side or the other)
b) The UK has already done that to a certain extent by agreeing a one-sided extradition treaty with the US - hopefully one benefit (whichever way the decision goes) will be that it will be re-examined... though given the politician's knack of saying one thing and doing another, I remain to be convinced it'll actually happen
c) Fair point, although I can understand why they would use whatever they can (I have personal experience as my daughter was diagnosed a couple of years back - I'd probably include myself in the class of people who'd recognise traits in themselves)

Re:Responsible for his acts

[music65536]

Thank you for your courage, sir.

It is a fascinating defense though. Psychological conditions are indeed correlated with troublesome behavior. He may in fact currently be in that social skill difficulty range. I agree with you that he is indeed responsible for his actions.

Suppose he believed some of the arguments we have seen defending such activities as the path of last resort to raise awareness of both security and the growing unrest among the people. His legal team may have chosen this defense in an attempt to lend credibility to those beliefs to the jury.

The question I ask of you is this: Do digital Robin Hoods deserve leniency if their intentions appear to be sufficiently instructive?

Huh. Imagine that.

[Anonymous Coward]

Eugenics would have solved this too.

I'm Asparagus!

[denzacar]

No! I'm Asparagus!

Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[Rogerborg]

This must be some new variant which only strikes when the Lulz stops and you're sniffing and blubbering in the cells.

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

No, and it doesn't say that in TFA.

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[TheCarp]

No actually it gave him a sense of right and wrong, so he decided to attack the hypocrites who work for the biggest organized crime syndicate in the area....the government.

Makes sense to me, the kid should get a reward.

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[Rogerborg]

I take it that your personal details weren't on any of the customer lists that LulzSec released. Last I checked, Sony isn't a government (yet).

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[Hasai]

You have to understand, Rogerborg, that when most people say "organized crime syndicate," "evil corporation," "the Man," or other such, what it actually translates to is "anyone who has more money than I do."

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is about a hacking incident against the US government on UK soil. Reading comprehension is fun!

Not one mention of LulzSec in the summary, asshole.

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

People who have more money than me are criminals. They are probably bank$ter scum who are 'too big to fail'.

Me, though, I'm just a regular guy, if I make more money than someone its because I work harder than them.

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[TheCarp]

How clever and insightful. Tell me though, what idiotic simplistic thoughts drive the other people who disagree with you? Perhaps next you shall let us know how gays really just want to be women, or something similarly as insightful.

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[TheCarp]

Well actually, now that you mention it... my username and password hash were recently in a data dump.

was that supposed to change my mind or something. I never said I thought Lulzsec were saints, but I do applaud a couple of targets...my enemies enemy and all. The CIA one made me laugh to beat the band, as did the AZ LE leak.

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. He's a know-nothing script kiddie who got caught and now he's using the Internet's oldest excuse for being a troll to date -- "I have Assburger's and therefore am not responsible for being a fucking prick, in fact you should pity me."

Let's see how well that defense works when he's in jail trying to stop his cellmate from raping his sorry ass.

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[Rogerborg]

And yet mine weren't, but I think they're a bunch of worthless tossers who drowned any tiny spark of merit stillborn in a cesspit.

That's deep man. Deep.

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[TheCarp]

to each their own I guess, some people cheer for sports teams, boggles me why anyone gives a shit....

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[TheCarp]

Because, as we all know... being a punk kid who broke into a few machines means its absolutely ok, and even right that he be forcibly raped.

Yes... a paragon of civility you are.

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

I take it that yours were? Which means you do not know right from wrong and are willing to fund immoral activity in return for mindless entertainment.

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

More childish arm-waving crap.

Still 'stikin' it to da man' after all these years.

Grow up for fuck's sake.

Re:Aspergers stops you telling right from wrong?

[sjames]

They have, however committed enough crimes to get a 13 year old hacker tried as an adult and jailed for a very long time (a few million rootkits installed) and they got no punishment for it at all from any government.

Aspergers: internet disease

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, him and 99% of /.

I mean, would the courts even consider this a surprising case, given the number of high-profile hacking cases related to autism?
I think the internet may have confused the terms "aspergers" with "a little bit awkward and has different interests to many people"

And?

[mseeger]

Well, concerning the judgement of his guilt (wether or not he has done the deed accused), this should have no influence. When deciding about the amount of punishment required, this has to be taken into account. But this SOP for every court. Asperger is far from being incapable of distinguishing right from wrong.

But i also think, that if he was in Britain while comitting those alleged crimes, he should be tried there. I think this is, what is troublesome with this case. The rest is pure window dressing.

CU, Martin

Soo close

[Anonymous Coward]

I though he had asshole syndrome. I guess I only got the first 2 letter correct.

So what

[JockTroll]

He's an assburger, his ass is burger.

Old trolls never die

[Anonymous Coward]

It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality', which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to paedophilia.

What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:

• Linus Torvalds is an anagram of slit anus or VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.
• Richard M. Stallman, spokespervert for the Gaysex's Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of mans cram thrill ad.
• Alan Cox is barely an anagram of anal cox which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.

I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for secondary rim and cord in my arse. It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.

Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail, which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for 'Felch Male' -- a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, 'felching' is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into 'e-male.'

As far as Richard 'Master' Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following: 'I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance,' he says. 'It's about being able to question conventional wisdom,' he asserts. 'I believe in love, but not monogamy,' he says plainly.

And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo slut!

Speaking about 'flaming,' who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children. To quote from the article linked:

'I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'

Is this why you were touching your penis in the cinema, Jon? And letting the other boys touch it too?

We should also point out that Jon Katz refers to himself as 'Slashdot's resident Gasbag.' Is there any more doubt? For those fortunate few who aren't aware of the list of homosexual terminology found inside the Linux 'Sauce Code,' a 'Gasbag' is a pervert who gains sexual gratification from having a thin straw inserted into his urethra (or to use the common parlance, 'piss-pipe'), then his homosexual lover blows firmly down the straw to inflate his scrotum. This is, of course, when he's not busy violating the dignity and co

Ya well

[Sycraft-fu]

Unfortunately, some people want to see it that way. You actually see it online believe it or not. There are more than a few, usually self-diagnosed (and thus likely not real) Asperger people who use it as an excuse to be jerks. They are extremely anti-social, hostile, and so on and have the attitude of "I have Asperger Syndrome so I can't function in normal society. This gives me license to act however I like since it is just something I can't change."

Pretty much if you can name a condition that causes people to have difficulty functioning normally, you can find someone who tries to take advantage of it to just not have to. It is sad, and insulting to those who don't want to be viewed as less capable just because they happen to be different, but it seems to be human nature. Exploitative assholes come in all forms.

Re:Ya well

[hitmark]

Well that is one possible reaction to having said issue. One build up a view that one is in the right and the rest of the world is in the wrong. That is, one blame anyone but oneself for the troubles faced.

Re:Ya well

[TheLink]

If a person has problems controlling his/her actions then why shouldn't "Society" be allowed to exert more control over that person (e.g. jail, restrictions, loss of freedoms). Parents are essentially allowed to be near-dictators over their children till their children have "grown up".

And if anyone does something wrong and claims to not have free will, why should he/she be treated better than a faulty machine that has failed?

Re:Ya well

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a long time friend who when diagnosed with "bipolar", parlayed that card into "I can be an asshole because I have bipolar. Before she wasnt, now she is. Oh, and the massive amounts of "medicine" she takes daily and is badly addicted to only make the "problem" worse. When she tries to get off the meds she nuts out, everyone in her family encourages her to "just take the pills" because its easier for them to deal with her as a zombie than strung out.
sigh

Let the justice system work

[Anonymous Coward]

He did the crime now let him get to know america a little better. He can discuss the cover up of UFO's and aliens with his cell mate.

Re:Let the justice system work

[Seumas]

Actually, there's not currently any evidence that he did "the crime".

Honesty

[Lysander7]

Wasn't there a law that you must not lie in court? Or does that not apply when you can just say "oh look this person's minor quirk looks like a condition! Easy defense". This is why most legal systems don't work. The only condition that should affect a sentence is one that prevents them from determining right from wrong, such as retardation, not "[a] disorder that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, along with restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests." - Wikipedia. I hope the guy gets the full sentence.

The Dog Ate My Responsibilities...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm so sick of every maladjusted arse/asshole claiming this 'Aspergers' shit. Some people are socially incompetent, and try to compensate by convincing themselves that they're 'differently exceptional'. In the years I've worked as a software developer, I can honestly say that these people are a complete liability - they're never as smart as they think they are. There's nothing *wrong* with being shy or introverted, but don't try to quantify these traits as some sort of disability; it's well within the spectrum of sane, rational behaviour. As with obesity, the Freud Squad do no favours by indulging this victim mentality.

Re:The Dog Ate My Responsibilities...

[PPH]

Intelligence and Asperger's are independent traits. Its possible to be both (in fact its been said that Bill Gates might have a touch of Asperger's).

There was a brilliant investment fund manager that suffered from Asperger's. While all of the people from Goldman Sachs and AIG were pushing their mortgage-backed security crap on the rest of the world by smiling, shaking hands and saying, "Trust me", he kept insisting on analyzing the data and ignored the social pressure. He saw through the whole load of bullshit, shorted the CDO markets ahead of the collapse and earned his clients billions of dollars.

Being able to blow off the whole peer pressure thing (it ain't cool to be smart) and achieve something looks a bit like Asperger's. The "maladjusted" label is often applied to people who don't kow tow to the captain of the football team. Big fucking deal. But that's no excuse for what Cleary did.

Socially Challenged

[Anonymous Coward]

Asperger's Syndrome is just code for "butt ugly and still a virgin".

Soap on a rope

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope he learned how to make soap on rope.

Soap is serious business in prison.

Re:Soap on a rope

[cheros]

No need - shower soap now comes from dispensers.. .. mounted a foot off the floor. :-)

Re:Responsible for his acts

[murdocj]

The question I ask of you is this: Do digital Robin Hoods deserve leniency if their intentions appear to be sufficiently instructive?

No.

The Hacker with ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... The dragon tattoo?

how do you pronounce that?

[FudRucker]

Ass Burgers? http://i.imgur.com/N8Igz.jpg

oh puhleaze

[amn108]

Oh c'mon, all hackers have some form of autism. The two go together. But just because they are autistic, doesn't mean they have no self-control, self-awareness enough to not be jailed. One thing is being an out-of-your-mind delusional serial killer with torn sense of reality and a heap of issues as a result of I dunno, destroyed childhood and systematic abuse, and another a spoiled kid knowingly hacking around. It's a safe bet he knew what he was doing, the way normal people know things, not the way autists look at paintings, books or whatever else it is they interpret completely differently.

At least, reduce his sentence, but let's plead the court does not go as far as letting him go. Maybe take away his Internets for a little while (nobody can live without Internet, it's suicide.)

Lord of the Flies

[Anonymous Coward]

Sucks to your ass-burgers!

Slashdot - the braying mob

[Anonymous Coward]

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that many of the prejudices expressed on Slashdot today are from precisely the same people who had previously thought that these various corporations and government organisations being DDoSed was a right hoot.

If you want to picture the mood and hypocrisy, then think about any stereotypical medieval fantasy, where there's the unassuming old lady of the village who gets accused of being a witch. At the burning, all those who knew her jeer and call as she's led to the stake. That's the mob - picture their faces contorted in anger as they bray.

Evolution works slowly, so it's great to come on Slashdot, read the comments, and be reminded that basically the bulk of the human population is virtually indistinguishable from faeces-slinging monkeys.

Re:Slashdot - the braying mob

[Lysander7]

Not sure if troll, or incredibly stupid.

Aspies can perfectly tell right from wrong

[cheros]

What a load of BS. Someone with Asperger's can perfectly tell right from wrong. They may not be able to pick up *social* clues, but there is nothing wrong with their sense of right and wrong other than that it sometimes is a bit more rigid than socially acceptable.

Trying this sort of BS is not going to help with his defense, but may harm others who are trying to lead a normal life.

Don't do the crime if you cannot do the time.

Re:Aspies can perfectly tell right from wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not about right or wrong it is about his treatment and the asperger's isn't really part of it it is the agoraphobia and possibly other things he may have that are at issue here. he may also be bi-polar like his mother. Could be the agoraphobia is making the doc think aspergers - its harder to figure out an adult and in these circumstances (especially with agoraphobia) it has to be difficult to figure out exactly what is condition is.

Agoraphobia sounds like to me one of the fits the autistic people have (that i know) -- not aspsergers at all; I've NEVER had a panic attack but I am highly experienced with high anxiety because I actually have Aspergers.

He won't be extradited

[Lysander7]

Should he be extradited? Yes. Will he? Probably not. Here's why: -He attempted suicide previously. -His mother is diagnosed with bipolar disorder, which is often hereditary. -He shows signs of multiple illnesses, many of which psychologists are unable to diagnose. -He is 19. -He has severe agoraphobia. And most of all: The defense is that he won't be able to adjust to being extradited, his mother saying, "sending him to America is a death sentence", and seeing as how McKinnon still hasn't been extradited after four years, I see no reason why this will be any different. It's a damn shame. Read this article, and you'll see why this shit won't get what he deserves: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2007094/Ryan-Clearys-mother-reveals-hacker-issued-suicide-threat.html

jail

[Anonymous Coward]

Throw his ass in jail like all these other hacker creeps.

Children

[ElusiveJoe]

You do know, that children are not little angels?

So?

[Anonymous Coward]

So? So what? Not guilty by reason of insanity? Didn't know right from wrong? Is Big Pharma's vaccination to blame? No? Then throw the book at him. Before he murders his wife.

Aspergers

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no normal. Normal is just what *some* people wish to define as the way to be, as a means for them to ostracize anyone who fails to conform to *their* expected pattern of behavior

I would very strongly argue Asperger's isn't even a developmental "problem". I don't see a problem, I see an opportunity, if only society would embrace that opportunity. Being and behaving different isn't a crime. Being so intensely interested in the details of something, when others look on blankly and shrug their shoulders isn't a crime. Being disinterested in the superficial and preferring to focus on the intensely complex details in life isn't a crime. But it is treated like a crime in all societies where the superficial people are held up as role models.

It takes a certain kind of person to spend 20, 30 even 40 years of their life, studying something with such intensity and attention to detail that others cannot even begin to see their interest in that subject. But then that person emerges from their detailed studies and they are often a world authority on the subjects they have been studying. These people change the world and they greatly contribute to science. But not all achieve their potential. Many suffer low self esteem due to how they are treated. (Note I refer specifically to Aspergers, not the whole Autistic spectrum (as I know some need help) but even some of the non-Asperger Autistics can achieve far more in life if only their low self esteem was greatly helped).

So I utterly hate what the lawyers have been doing to UK Hacker Gary McKinnon and now also UK Hacker Ryan Cleary. I hate the side effects of their defense team's moves to mis-categorize Asperger's as some kind of reason to feel sorry for them. They are seeking to categorize Aspergers as basically a form of mental retardation, when in reality it could be further from the truth. Asperger's know right from wrong, its just that Aspergers often have a usually idealistic world view and unfortunately not everyone is like that (I wish the world was like that because a world of idealistic Utopian thinkers would be far better than the twisted, two faced, underhandedly evil, real world we all have to deal with).

By the way, the superficial in society, if you haven't already guessed are the Histrionic Personality Disordered people (HPD) in society. The most aggressive self interested attention seekers combine HPD with NPD (Narcissistic personality disorder), resulting in someone who will ruthlessly put down anyone who stands out around them as different and anyone talking with any interest or authority on their interests is standing out and so showing up the HPD / NPD people as not knowing much and so these people will condemn the people who study deeply. The HPD want to regain the center of attention and the NPD can't accept anyone being better than them at anything. (Therefore a HPD+NPD person is very bad news to be around).

As a result, Aspergers often suffer low self esteem due to this relentless barrage of frankly outright abuse. If only more of them could learn to accept being different isn't a crime and also learn to see through the vocal minority in society who seek to condemn others (for their own two faced gain). I should also note, its not just Aspergers who suffer this abuse, its everyone, its just Aspergers tend to stand out without trying and so they really suffer badly from it. (Through no fault of their own!).

There is no normal, there is just life, everyone is different, its just some what to be the center of attention so they seek to misrepresent others (for their own gain).

tarded

[Anonymous Coward]

being a tard is not an excuse when caught doing fairly complicated tasks like hacking, the gov won't let him slide on this one.

So What?!?

[Hasai]

I have some troubles with Asperger's myself, yet I still can tell the difference between right and wrong. What is this, the "waah, waah, I'm a victim" defense?

medicalization of criminal defense

[peter303]

Its pretty common now to hear many crimes that the defendant didnt really intend to do - it was just a medical condition. Tony Weiner calims to have gone into meidcal rehad, and so on. Few people are ever responsible for their actions anymore.

Hospitals are worse than prisons.

[elucido]

In a hospital the government will have absolute control over him mentally and physically. He will have no rights whatsoever.

He might be better off in a prison where at least he wont be psychologically and medically tortured.

Re:Hospitals are worse than prisons.

[Hazel Bergeron]

In a hospital the government will have absolute control over him mentally and physically. He will have no rights whatsoever.

What gives you that impression of (British) hospitals? While things have got worse since Thatcher pushed for care facilities (not hospitals per se) to be sold off to private business and we occasionally get this sort of thing, successive Mental Health Acts have given more "freedom" to the individual - even the seriously mentally ill individual. You're far more likely to be put on the street when you should be in compulsory residential care than the other way round.

Re:Hospitals are worse than prisons.

[FyRE666]

This is happening in the UK, not the US.

Re:Hospitals are worse than prisons.

[elucido]

This is happening in the UK, not the US.

Ah thats right. Only the US government is capable of torture.

Re:Hospitals are worse than prisons.

[tehcyder]

This is happening in the UK, not the US.

Ah thats right. Only the US government is capable of torture.

At least we don't go around boasting about it, you sick fucker.

No, more like sluggishly progressing schizophrenia

[elucido]

Usually it means the government has something really bad in store for you when they label you crazy.

Sluggishly progressing schizophrenia or sluggish schizophrenia (Russian: ; vyalotekushchaya shizofreniya) was a category of schizophrenia diagnosed by psychiatrists in the Soviet Union. At the time, Western psychiatry recognized only four types of schizophrenia: catatonic, hebephrenic, paranoid, and simple.
The diagnostic criteria for this fifth category were so vague that it could be applied to virtually any person not suffering from mental function impairment and having interests beyond survival needs. The diagnosis was sometimes applied to dissidents who were not in fact mentally ill, so that they could be forcibly hospitalized in mental institutions and subjected to treatments including powerful antipsychotics and electroconvulsive therapy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggishly_progressing_schizophrenia

I think this hacker in specific Ryan Cleary has pissed off the CIA syndrome. The treatment is indefinite detention in a mental institution where he can be treated for his obvious malfunction.

Interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

how they create an ideal model of human behaviour, and then create a syndrome for everyone that doesn't match.
It's also interesting that the ideal model doesn't seem particularly ideal.

They want information from him

[elucido]

And they'll get it out of him one way or another. It looks to me like they have taken the gloves off. He will probably have it as bad if not worse than Bradley Manning.

Ridiculous

[the eric conspiracy]

My son has Asperger's. He seems to be able to refrain from criminal activity.

I think anyone who has Asperger's would be pretty pissed off by this moronic defense attorney trying to imply that their condition has anything to do with the ability to distinguish right from wrong.

Re:Ridiculous

[PPH]

I agree. My psychologist friends advise me that it may have some bearing on how to conduct punishment and/or treatment. But it doesn't excuse responsibility for the act.

Re:Ridiculous

[bussdriver]

I for one would like to use it as a defense should I ever get into trouble.

I'm pissed they are calling us Autistic when its far from proven and the two are separated in the DSM. There may be no actual connection between the two. I have autistic relatives and there are more traits they have from their parents than in common with me.

Re:Ridiculous

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't believe in any such thing as assburgers any more than I believe in ADHD (which 60% of all children have) or the toothfairy. But I do believe in ignorant, negligent parents.

Re:Ridiculous

[Anonymous Coward]

People with Aspergers usually don't have friends but they can be desperate to have friends. Couple that with poor judgment of other people and you get someone who is easily led and will take risks and overlook things to get a friend any friend.

Re:Ridiculous

[pclminion]

Yeah, what a stupid lawyer. Putting his client's interests over the interests of everyone who isn't his client. Dude needs to go back to law school.

Re:Ridiculous

[Anonymous Coward]

But Aspergers may go a long way to explaining how an offender felt caught up and compelled to do an action even if they knew it to be unacceptable. And motivations are important especially when deciding severity and appropriateness of sentencing. What was the intent of the accused? How will they cope with prison? Should they receive treatment? Are there humane considerations etc

Re:Ridiculous

[WarlockD]

It depends how strong it is. I work for http://www.npitx.org/ where we deal with allot of people that have this. Hell, I am even diagnosed with a "high functioning" version of it. Most people diagnosed have a slue of other problems (Dyslexia is mine and a few others I can live without)

That being said, here is a better article about it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/8594037/Essex-hacker-Ryan-Cleary-co-operating-with-police-as-they-question-him-over-other-alleged-cyber-crimes.html

Sounds like he might even have a case here. Most people use Asperger's as kind of a "catch" all and this article is piss poor on details :P

Sounds like my old tech manager

[Anonymous Coward]

> Ryan Cleary .. has been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome .. Defence lawyer Ben Cooper said .. Cleary is highly intelligent but agoraphobic and has difficulty interacting with people, presumably unless they are on the end of an Internet connection ..

Sounds like my old tech manager, who used sit next to me and send me emails when he wanted to communicate .. :)

Hacker?

[Anonymous Coward]

In my days, it took more than spreading worms and building up a zombie army for LOIC to be called a "hacker". That's all Cleary ever did (well, that and pissing off Anonymous, where he was at most a clerk).

I doubt framing him was Lulzsec's only objective, though. I could see that being the case if they were all from the Anonymous old guard, but at least two of them are CIA. I wonder who was using whom...

Cool way to get diagnosed!

[Khenke]

He got his Aspergers Syndrome diagnosed in a week.
I have been on the waiting list for getting my Aspergers Syndrome diagnosed for 2 years and I expect to have a few more to wait, since I'm not prioritized (single, no kids,not a teenager and not caught doing a crime).

Looks like it's time to travel to UK and commit a crime (that I can hope to get away with too if I'm lucky).

Personally I don't see how having AS could make him not understand what he did was illegal, but it's his lawyers job to find anything that can help him in court. And the judge/jury job to see if it matters, and that haven't been done so far.

Not again..

[hattable]

I signed in to get the full brunt of karmic demise, and because this isn't something AC can say with any validity...

Asperger's is not something that every discovers after a while. It is not just social ineptitude and awkwardness. Every time some criminal or pre-tween internet troll claims they suffere from asperger's they are hurting the community of people with real syndromes and illnesses. I have lived with autism my whole life -- in that my brother suffers from it. When my parents die I will be legally responsible for him. It is serious and affects nearly every aspect of life. Asperger's, in the funny definition (and possible the most accurate) was said to contracted after reading the wikipedia article on it.
This definitely has something to do with my generations sick obsession with 'being the most fucked up.' I have heard arguments about who's took the most medication or who has the strongest pills. Society is failing somewhere and this is the result.

Not at all to imply that it isn't a real thing, but they are belittling the condition when every other kid who didin't know what to say in a random social encounter is diagnosed with it. Some people are different - not broken, not sick, just different. But when we see this we must label it, must diagnose and 'treat' whatever ails them. That mentality just sets us up to be susceptible to this type of justice-tomfoolery.

Don't deserve justice from the Nazis

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate LulzSec and I strongly dislike Ryan Cleary, but he should not be deported to the USA. If it were another country, maybe, but the USA: NO!
I know he possibly took part in the hacking of several USA companies, but since the USA are Nazis that don't respect human rights, lock up people without trial, allow secret evidence in courts, etc. then nobody has the right to seek justice in a US court. These hacked companies don't like it? Shouldn't have done business with the 21st century Nazis.

Re:Don't deserve justice from the Nazis

[Lysander7]

What planet do you live on?

WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF is an assburger?

Re:WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF is an assburger?

Something brown found between two buns. If it's a /. assburger, there will be melted cheese too.

Asperger's has no bearing

[Anonymous Coward]

*I* have Asperger's. All it means is that you're a little socially awkward and have genius-level abilities in whatever you are interested in (while being average or poor at everything else). Clearly, this guy's interest was hacking. Mine's software development. I also have never done anything illegal beyond going five miles over the speed limit sometimes.

Aha!

[Anonymous Coward]

The Hans Reiser Defense, eh?

Illness no excuse for crime

[Kittenman]

Might be a case for leniency by the Judge but if he's a crook, he's a crook. Remember, lots of people with Aspergers haven't gone on to have criminal careers.

This is not about right from wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read the article, you'll see that it's not being argued that aspergers has diminished his ability to distinguish right from wrong, but that it would alter "the effects of incarceration" because of his inability to pick up on social cues... a disability which in prison may have more significant consequences than simply not being invited back to a dinner party.

This kind of argument that some prisoners do their time harder than others (and are thus entitled to petition the court for some measure of leniency) because of some kind of psychological issue is nothing new. Where I reside (Victoria, Australia), for better or worse, it is now a staple of plea hearings following the Court of Appeal decision in R v Verdins; R v Buckley; R v Vo ([2007] VSCA 102). A two page summary of the decision can be found here.

    I would be surprised if there was not a line of authority in the United Kingdom.

Re:Ridiculous (Not so)

[ozzee]

My son has Asperger's too. I think you need to read up alot more on the kinds of issues that surround persons with AS. There are a huge number of journal articles you should get familiar with to make sure you keep your son out of trouble. Asperger’s Syndrome in Forensic Settings Is just one of many. A recent one by Ian Freckelton and David List, Asperger’s Disorder, Criminal Responsibility and Criminal Culpability gives a very good summary on the issues an AS sufferer has with the Criminal Justice System.

If you truly care about your son, you will take the time to get informed as the CJS can screw with an AS sufferer in ways that will make you sick.

Most geeks think they have Asperger's Syndrome.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the chic condition to have, apparently.

Re:Most geeks think they have Asperger's Syndrome.

[bryan1945]

Nah, it's their rationalization for not being able to find a girl who wants to spend any time with them.

mod parent up

[cyclomedia]

nailed it (I'm also aspergery)

Being Britain...

[bryan1945]

They probably will end up charging the SOCA of being too vigilant. Same country where if you whack a robber with a stick in your own home you get sent to jail?